Otterbox

Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

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I could care less whether you like or don't like Kirby

 

I agree the money issues will be settled by the court not those arguing here

 

If you think Kurby's share has diddly squat to do with the extra expenses you find necessary to pay so you can play on a laser

PLEASE

compare his share to the ILCA extractions from your wallet

AND

multiply your distain for money grabbers by the appropriate factor

 

Geeze Gouv. Pick a postion. Any position and stick to it for just 5 minutes even...

 

OK, so we went past arguing irrelevant aspects of the case (the class rules are all that matter).

 

We went past the emotional Kirby gave birth to the boat argument. He did. Like 100 years ago. And got and sold his IP for it. My great great great grand kids should not have to pay his for that... that's why IP expires eventually.

 

We went past emotional arguments that Kirby is God and made the class. Hah ha. BS! He made a mess and now sued the class.

 

We went past they are all clowns. I agree; would gladly get rid of LPE and the clowns down under but we can't alas (you can thank grey hair for that, BTW).

 

And now you are back to your long standing the class is evil argument. All I can say is that I don't mind paying the class as they do things for the sailors. Why am I still paying Kirby for a 100 year old napkin... so he can sue us? Thanks no. I'll pick the class any day over Kirby.

 

Again, just my opinion and worth what you paid.

 

* It all comes down to this... do you think the class will be forced to reverse its rules? I declare victory if no, and shut-up and pay forever if its yes. But I bet the court says no to this.

 

None of that other stuff matters. Just dust in the wind.

 

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IIRC we've been through this before on this thread. It doesn't appear ILCA is incorporated as a UK company. There's no requirement in law in the UK to register organisations and it is entirely normal not to do so. I can't think of a class association that's incorporated and only a minority of sailing clubs have done so. The main reason to do so would be to protect officer's private property from any possible liabilities from the association. A class association would not qualify as a charity in Britain.

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  • Non payment of royalties was central to allowing Bruce Kirby Inc to commence legal action against Laser Performance.

No. The allegation of non-payment of royalties is central to the case.

 

As I have stated before, I suspect that Rastegar is using a different interpretation of the royalty formula (one that benefits him at the expense of Kirby). Whose interpretation is correct -- that's for the court to decide.

 

 

The stopping of royalty payments is no longer an allegation, it's an undisputed fact. Laser Performance does not dispute that the royalty payments were stopped, just the reasons why. I accept that when the original Legal Action documents were served, it was an allegation.(The above is written with the benefit of hindsight, the exact wording could be improved).

 

Stopping royalty payments and non-payment of royalty payments are not the same thing. Imagine that you take out a loan to buy a car. You make all the payments until the loan is paid off. At that point, you STOP making payments, but you are not in a position of non-payment (because nothing is owed).

 

I don't know the details of who owes whom any money and, neither do you. Ultimately, until the court decides on this, no-one does (not even BK or Rastegar).

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Save me the scroll - seems to me someone knows how much Bruce Kirby gets (or is supposed to get, or used to get, or whatever) for every new Laser sold. What is that amount?

 

It was in legal documents released and it's in this thread. No I'm not going to look for you. I think Gannt is correct, 2% of the hull price. I don't think he gets anything on sails.

 

 

Thanks, Dogwatch - I wasn't asking anyone to look, I was hoping someone would know and, no surprise, Gannt answered the bell. Of significance is your comment - "I think Gannt is correct...". These words have rarely been uttered in this thread!! :D

 

 

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I think the proper term for a class association would be a "non-profit".

 

At a wild guess, you don't live in the UK. Approximate equivalents here would be Company Limited by Guarantee or (less commonly) Community Interest Company. But as I said, the vast majority of small non-profit organisations in the UK have no formal incorporation at all and there's no requirement to do so. Reading dark implications into the fact (if fact it is) that ILCA is unincorporated is therefore incorrect.

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  • Non payment of royalties was central to allowing Bruce Kirby Inc to commence legal action against Laser Performance.

No. The allegation of non-payment of royalties is central to the case.

 

As I have stated before, I suspect that Rastegar is using a different interpretation of the royalty formula (one that benefits him at the expense of Kirby). Whose interpretation is correct -- that's for the court to decide.

 

 

The stopping of royalty payments is no longer an allegation, it's an undisputed fact. Laser Performance does not dispute that the royalty payments were stopped, just the reasons why. I accept that when the original Legal Action documents were served, it was an allegation.(The above is written with the benefit of hindsight, the exact wording could be improved).

 

Stopping royalty payments and non-payment of royalty payments are not the same thing. Imagine that you take out a loan to buy a car. You make all the payments until the loan is paid off. At that point, you STOP making payments, but you are not in a position of non-payment (because nothing is owed).

 

I don't know the details of who owes whom any money and, neither do you. Ultimately, until the court decides on this, no-one does (not even BK or Rastegar).

 

 

I agree. I deliberately used "stopping" as I considered nonpayment to be a subset of stopping, but you have correctly pointed out a weakness in its use. It was mean to be a catch-all, used to consider Rastegar's position. The main point was that within the terms of the contract, Kirby used clauses eight (royalties) of the builders contract to terminate LP as a builder, which in turn lead to the legal action. Do you have a better word to use?

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Wess

I am not down on the class

I consider the class to be a necessary tool for the management of the sailing game

I consider the builders to be necessary as we need toys

Kirby either has valid contracts WITH THE BUILDERS or he doesn't. If they are valid the government must enforce the contracts or contracts generally become meaningless.

 

You complain that you don't want to give any more money to a guy who designed a toy a half century ago

Fine.

I suggest you have no control over deals made between Kirby and the builders

And

The money is a pittance

 

But

I am suggesting you take a look at OTHERS WHO MAKE IT COST MORE TO DAIL YOUR TOY!!!

Maybe the ILCA, ISAF, and USSailing are perfectly managed organizations who use every penny collected to efficiently accomplish necessary things for the game.

Or maybe they burn through major finds while accomplishing very little.

 

I suggest you check for yourself

 

That is all.

 

Until you have a thorough understanding of their operations, please neither assume they are great nor that they suck

 

 

Gouv,

 

Honestly not wanting to go round and round on this and all I can guess is that either you do (at which point I'll pass) or you really don't understand what I am saying.

 

One last time for me. I don't care if the court rules Kirby did or did not have a valid contract with the builder. That is small potatoes chump change and not coming out of my pocket...only past money between LPE and BK. Let the two idiots fight to the death over that for all I care. The contracts have expiration dates. AFAIK he has nothing left to sell to force a renewed contract absent a class rule that says a builder must appease the grey hair even if he has nothing to sell (at this stage usually some idiot who cant understand talks about a construction manual). The class rule is future money out of my great great great grandkids pockets to his great great great grandkids. All I care about is that the courts not force a reversal of the class rules.

 

I know you see other fights. I don't care. Well in some cases I do but I am pragmatic. A journey starts with one small step and this step would set a good and important precedent for the class... we don't want our members to have to pay money for nothing.

 

Can we at least agree its good to have a precedent that says our members don't have to pay money for nothing?

 

And if its established against some grey hair who sued the very folks that volunteered and helped make the class that made him rich, all the better. :)

 

I am not assuming anyone is great. I just refuse to side with somebody I think is not. That is all. Weekend and lunch break over and I need to do some work.

 

If nothing else I hope I made you laugh. All in good fun.

 

Cheers,

 

Wess

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At a wild guess, you don't live in the UK. Approximate equivalents here would be Company Limited by Guarantee or (less commonly) Community Interest Company. But as I said, the vast majority of small non-profit organisations in the UK have no formal incorporation at all and there's no requirement to do so. Reading dark implications into the fact (if fact it is) that ILCA is unincorporated is therefore incorrect.

 

 

Nope. In the US, any sort or organization needs to have some kind of legally recognized status separate from the people running it. Otherwise the IRS will start looking for somebody to tax, and parents will start looking for somebody to sue every time their kid gets a skinned knee.

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Wess, I get it, you are sick of paying your hard earned money to Bruce Kirby.

 

Just out of interest, and to quantify the extent of 'your damage', exactly how many new Lasers have you bought?

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Wess, I get it, you are sick of paying your hard earned money to Bruce Kirby.

 

Just out of interest, and to quantify the extent of 'your damage', exactly how many new Lasers have you bought?

 

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OK Wess, I'll ask it in another way, have you ever bought a new Laser and therefore paid royalties to Bruce Kirby?

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OK Wess, I'll ask it in another way, have you ever bought a new Laser and therefore paid royalties to Bruce Kirby?

 

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Many years ago (around the major rule changes voting on Vang, Outhaul, etc) in the Laser newsletter, it stated that there was about 100,000 pounds in the bank at the International Laser Class Association head office in England.

 

How much is in the bank these days? I can't find it in the newsletters or am I just blind?

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Many years ago (around the major rule changes voting on Vang, Outhaul, etc) in the Laser newsletter, it stated that there was about 100,000 pounds in the bank at the International Laser Class Association head office in England.

 

How much is in the bank these days? I can't find it in the newsletters or am I just blind?

 

It's in the Dec 2014 Laser World - it's at the very bottom of the table - they've used the same format for years. The figures are:

  • 2014 US$850,444
  • 2013 US$832,599
  • 2012 £547,696 (British pounds)
  • 2011 £635,482 (British pounds)

Last two figures were posted in Dec 2012 Laser World, first two in Dec 2014.

 

I'm pretty sure I have the report in a printed copy of Laser World that has it, but it's stored in a box many miles away from where I am right now. It's easy enough to look up, it will be in the Dec 2007 issue from memory. Also from memory it was higher than £100,000, fairly sure it was in the region of £400,000, as I recall discussing the amount around 2009. (I can't believe I remember this stuff.) I can recall a Laser sailing mate asking "what's it needed for?", and it being referred to as 'Jeff Martin's war chest'.

 

It's fair to say that the ILCA is in pretty good shape financially.

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I think the proper term for a class association would be a "non-profit".

 

At a wild guess, you don't live in the UK. Approximate equivalents here would be Company Limited by Guarantee or (less commonly) Community Interest Company. But as I said, the vast majority of small non-profit organisations in the UK have no formal incorporation at all and there's no requirement to do so. Reading dark implications into the fact (if fact it is) that ILCA is unincorporated is therefore incorrect.

 

I dont think there is such a thing in the UK as non profit people like to say it.

If there are loop holes every business would be non profit

just be nice to know who has your money and what under whose law can they do with it?

just imagine the ILCA goes with a certain new boat called a laser but doesnt look like it because it can?

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regardless of all that

the court case may end up as a laser being a new boat and the old laser with new name

Which will the ILCA and ISAF go with?

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Many years ago (around the major rule changes voting on Vang, Outhaul, etc) in the Laser newsletter, it stated that there was about 100,000 pounds in the bank at the International Laser Class Association head office in England.

 

How much is in the bank these days? I can't find it in the newsletters or am I just blind?

 

It's in the Dec 2014 Laser World - it's at the very bottom of the table - they've used the same format for years. The figures are:

  • 2014 US$850,444
  • 2013 US$832,599
  • 2012 £547,696 (British pounds)
  • 2011 £635,482 (British pounds)

Last two figures were posted in Dec 2012 Laser World, first two in Dec 2014.

 

I'm pretty sure I have the report in a printed copy of Laser World that has it, but it's stored in a box many miles away from where I am right now. It's easy enough to look up, it will be in the Dec 2007 issue from memory. Also from memory it was higher than £100,000, fairly sure it was in the region of £400,000, as I recall discussing the amount around 2009. (I can't believe I remember this stuff.) I can recall a Laser sailing mate asking "what's it needed for?", and it being referred to as 'Jeff Martin's war chest'.

 

It's fair to say that the ILCA is in pretty good shape financially.

 

Pretty good shape? Understatement!

What other Class Association even comes close to that amount?

War chest? Did Jeff know this was battle coming way back when?

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  • Non payment of royalties was central to allowing Bruce Kirby Inc to commence legal action against Laser Performance.

No. The allegation of non-payment of royalties is central to the case.

 

As I have stated before, I suspect that Rastegar is using a different interpretation of the royalty formula (one that benefits him at the expense of Kirby). Whose interpretation is correct -- that's for the court to decide.

 

 

The stopping of royalty payments is no longer an allegation, it's an undisputed fact. Laser Performance does not dispute that the royalty payments were stopped, just the reasons why. I accept that when the original Legal Action documents were served, it was an allegation.(The above is written with the benefit of hindsight, the exact wording could be improved).

 

Stopping royalty payments and non-payment of royalty payments are not the same thing. Imagine that you take out a loan to buy a car. You make all the payments until the loan is paid off. At that point, you STOP making payments, but you are not in a position of non-payment (because nothing is owed).

 

I don't know the details of who owes whom any money and, neither do you. Ultimately, until the court decides on this, no-one does (not even BK or Rastegar).

 

 

I agree. I deliberately used "stopping" as I considered nonpayment to be a subset of stopping, but you have correctly pointed out a weakness in its use. It was mean to be a catch-all, used to consider Rastegar's position. The main point was that within the terms of the contract, Kirby used clauses eight (royalties) of the builders contract to terminate LP as a builder, which in turn lead to the legal action. Do you have a better word to use?

 

I re-read the builder's agreement. The royalty is 2% of the wholesale cost of each "Kirby Sailboat", which I naively assume includes sails, spars, etc..

 

As to termination: The contract allows Kirby to terminate without fault. I don't understand why Kirby doesn't use this option?

 

Let me explain my position here: I am not pro-Rastegar. I am also not pro Kirby, because I think that his approach of trying to get a third party to enforce his contracts is not an honourable position. Years ago, I sailed lasers, but not now. I have no skin in the game: I am just watching.

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It's fair to say that the ILCA is in pretty good shape financially.

 

 

I'm sure Kirby's lawyers would agree.

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Nope. In the US, any sort or organization needs to have some kind of legally recognized status separate from the people running it. Otherwise the IRS will start looking for somebody to tax, and parents will start looking for somebody to sue every time their kid gets a skinned knee.

 

 

Looks like most yacht clubs or sailing organizations are organized as 501( c)(3) or 501( c)(7) organizations.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501%28c%29_organization

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I think the proper term for a class association would be a "non-profit".

 

At a wild guess, you don't live in the UK. Approximate equivalents here would be Company Limited by Guarantee or (less commonly) Community Interest Company. But as I said, the vast majority of small non-profit organisations in the UK have no formal incorporation at all and there's no requirement to do so. Reading dark implications into the fact (if fact it is) that ILCA is unincorporated is therefore incorrect.

 

I dont think there is such a thing in the UK as non profit people like to say it.

 

 

 

Correct. The most common analogous form of incorporation in the UK is Company Limited by Guarantee but this does not of itself make it tax exempt and I don't believe the analogy to US "not for profit" is an exact one. If anyone is interested http://www.companylawclub.co.uk/companies-limited-by-guaranteeis an overview.

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in the UK there is also the CASC which is run via a gov department

so I still wonder where ILCA fits into these parts of the law?

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Nope. In the US, any sort or organization needs to have some kind of legally recognized status separate from the people running it. Otherwise the IRS will start looking for somebody to tax, and parents will start looking for somebody to sue every time their kid gets a skinned knee.

 

 

Looks like most yacht clubs or sailing organizations are organized as 501( c)(3) or 501( c)(7) organizations.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501%28c%29_organization

 

 

In the USA, you can also get 501( C )(3) status for an unincorporated association. Of course, there are risks to that, but incorporation does not provide a lot of defence for small organizations (google "piercing the corporate veil").

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the uk was very lax years ago so lots went under the radar

 

"Lax" in what way?

 

Personally I'm just fine with living in a country where people can get together to form an organisation and don't have to tell the government a single thing about it.

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In Australia you can not open a bank account without either a person tax file number or some sort of certificate of registration for a company, charity or what most clubs and associations use, non profit sporting association. So all our clubs have some sort of registraion with one of our government departments. This policy has cracked down on a lot of Black money and tax evasion by dodgy people.

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the uk was very lax years ago so lots went under the radar

 

"Lax" in what way?

 

Personally I'm just fine with living in a country where people can get together to form an organisation and don't have to tell the government a single thing about it.

 

Just the way you just explained it, its great, let all the other dumb bastards pay tax

I agree its great.

so a few of us got together and run a hedge fund that we all own, (club so no wages no NI) and billion dollar dividends straight into the old sky rocket

OK all expats as well so non dom status

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In Australia you can not open a bank account without either a person tax file number or some sort of certificate of registration for a company, charity or what most clubs and associations use, non profit sporting association. So all our clubs have some sort of registraion with one of our government departments. This policy has cracked down on a lot of Black money and tax evasion by dodgy people.

 

Same here. Details would be trustees personal details.

 

Banks are hot on this here because they are financially liable for money laundering done via accounts they provide. The first time I paid a nice fat client cheque into my business account, I got a phone call from the bank to ask, basically, "are you dealing drugs, mr dogwatch?" Slightly weird as the cheque was from a very well known company, not known as drug dealers.

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Come on guys! Surely somebody on here knows something about accounts! 12 hours with nobody pointing out the obvious about the cash in the bank with the ILCA.

 

It is a meaningless figure on its own and can only be read alongside a full set of accounts. The amount of money in the bank is irrelevant without knowing what their liabilities are, both short and long term. You also need to consider the amount in the bank compared with the annual budget. It is very common for sporting bodies to get all their income up front and early (beginning of the year) and then spend it over the course of the rest of the year. If their tax year coincides with the time they have just received their annual income but have spent very little, the picture can look very different from what is actually going on.

 

Bottom line is, the headline figure is totally meaningless and to judge the ILCA itself or its financial health based on that number alone is wrong.

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In the UK most small CA and other associated organisations will have a Treasurers Account. This can only be obtained if the organisation has a suitable constitution that the bank feels is appropriate (I am sure there is a framework they work to) and there is more than one signatory to the account.

 

It does state that the signatories to the account can be held liable if the account goes overdrawn so something to be carefully considered.

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In Australia you can not open a bank account without either a person tax file number or some sort of certificate of registration for a company, charity or what most clubs and associations use, non profit sporting association. So all our clubs have some sort of registraion with one of our government departments. This policy has cracked down on a lot of Black money and tax evasion by dodgy people.

 

Same here. Details would be trustees personal details.

 

Banks are hot on this here because they are financially liable for money laundering done via accounts they provide. The first time I paid a nice fat client cheque into my business account, I got a phone call from the bank to ask, basically, "are you dealing drugs, mr dogwatch?" Slightly weird as the cheque was from a very well known company, not known as drug dealers.

 

why would you have a UK bank account ???

Yes had same problem they just need a letter on file with you explaining the source of funds. You can say anything, I said I was a hooker which is legal in the UK and it was a dividend from my business.

There is a country that has ltd companies but not in the EU so you take the punters cheque and bank it overseas, ( same company name) everybody thinks you are a UK company, haha.

Thanks to the USA we have Paypal and Western Union which are a gift to terrorists and dodgy businessman

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Thanks to the USA we have Paypal and Western Union which are a gift to terrorists and dodgy businessman

 

 

And illegal aliens. Oops, did I just say "illegal"? SA is probably the last place you can call someone an "illegal alien" these days.

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Come on guys! Surely somebody on here knows something about accounts! 12 hours with nobody pointing out the obvious about the cash in the bank with the ILCA.

 

It is a meaningless figure on its own and can only be read alongside a full set of accounts. The amount of money in the bank is irrelevant without knowing what their liabilities are, both short and long term. You also need to consider the amount in the bank compared with the annual budget. It is very common for sporting bodies to get all their income up front and early (beginning of the year) and then spend it over the course of the rest of the year. If their tax year coincides with the time they have just received their annual income but have spent very little, the picture can look very different from what is actually going on.

 

Bottom line is, the headline figure is totally meaningless and to judge the ILCA itself or its financial health based on that number alone is wrong.

 

100% agree.

 

My earlier comment that the ILCA was in good financial health was not intended to be facetious in any way. It came across as conservative because when I wrote it, I was wondering about the peaks and toughs of cash flow, though the reserve funds would mean that the troughs are well covered. We don't know what contingencies are provided for, nor what the financial strategies are.

 

The ILCA by publishing the end of year financial summery in Laser World is an act of transparency.

 

Questions surrounding the financial and business affairs relating to the Laser still exist by members, and many are separate to the end of year summery. I see the move from the UK to the US as being very positive.

 

Finally, I don't have a problem with officials being well paid for big events, I'd like to see the most competent officials attracted to those positions. They require a particular skill set that often was developed over decades of selfless volunteering. The sport at it's higher levels has and is slowly becoming more professional in every aspect.

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Come on guys! Surely somebody on here knows something about accounts! 12 hours with nobody pointing out the obvious about the cash in the bank with the ILCA.

 

It is a meaningless figure on its own and can only be read alongside a full set of accounts. The amount of money in the bank is irrelevant without knowing what their liabilities are, both short and long term. You also need to consider the amount in the bank compared with the annual budget. It is very common for sporting bodies to get all their income up front and early (beginning of the year) and then spend it over the course of the rest of the year. If their tax year coincides with the time they have just received their annual income but have spent very little, the picture can look very different from what is actually going on.

 

Bottom line is, the headline figure is totally meaningless and to judge the ILCA itself or its financial health based on that number alone is wrong.

 

I see the move from the UK to the US as being very positive.

 

Why?

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I see the move from the UK to the US as being very positive.
Why?

 

Politically, that business and finance are in new hands means that the ILCA can position itself as a different ILCA that ran the controversial rule change, and made controversial decisions about the plaques etc. Sorry to say, and to speak plainly, it also means some distance away from Jeff Martin, who was a big part of that controversy. (This is not an attempt to reopen discussions about the rule change or plaques - which have already been discussed exhaustively.)

 

Yes.. Why??

The $ 800,000 has nothing to do with cash flow surpluses
Accounts payable and accounts receivable clearly describe the cash flow the $800,000 is the nest egg

 

The line in the report simply says "accumulated funds". In any operation, cash reserves are used to bridge any cash flow shortfall. Yes, part will be as Gouv says a 'nest egg', however part will also be in operating account(s). The financial report gives no indication of cash flow fluctuations, nor any hint of contingencies are planned for, or any financial strategy.

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So how long until the $800k gets used up in legal fees and ILCA asks the members for more to continue the fight? Is it three years so far? Funds must be a lot less by now.

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So how long until the $800k gets used up in legal fees and ILCA asks the members for more to continue the fight? Is it three years so far? Funds must be a lot less by now.

 

For the last few years, It's difficult to see the trend because there were two currencies involved, so using today's rate of 1.53 (the historic rate at the time figures were published in Dec 2012 was 1.60), here are the last four years again.

 

  • 2014 US$850,444
  • 2013 US$832,599
  • 2012 US$837,974 actual was £547,696 (British pounds), used today's exchange rate 1.53
  • 2011 US$972,287 actual was £635,482 (British pounds), used today's exchange rate 1.53
It's easy to reach short sighted conclusions regarding the reduction over the 2011-2013 period. The reason that there is a large cash reserve in the first place is because of the financial performance of past management, which includes Jeff Martin. The reduction in funds are not as a result of just the legal fees, it's plain to see by looking at the financial summaries.
I suggest anyone wanting to pass comment read SimonN's comment #2743 above first.
There have been legal costs, and you will expect higher costs when the legal matter goes to court. I disagree with Torrid's remarks that Wesley W. Whitmyer or Bruce Kirby who are both sailors are targeting the ILCA's money. Have no interest in debating it. Time will tell.
Just over two weeks to go before the scheduled motions hearing.

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So how long until the $800k gets used up in legal fees and ILCA asks the members for more to continue the fight? Is it three years so far? Funds must be a lot less by now.

 

For the last few years, It's difficult to see the trend because there were two currencies involved, so using today's rate of 1.53 (the historic rate at the time figures were published in Dec 2012 was 1.60), here are the last four years again.

 

  • 2014 US$850,444
  • 2013 US$832,599
  • 2012 US$837,974 actual was £547,696 (British pounds), used today's exchange rate 1.53
  • 2011 US$972,287 actual was £635,482 (British pounds), used today's exchange rate 1.53
It's easy to reach short sighted conclusions regarding the reduction over the 2011-2013 period. The reason that there is a large cash reserve in the first place is because of the financial performance of past management, which includes Jeff Martin. The reduction in funds are not as a result of just the legal fees, it's plain to see by looking at the financial summaries.
I suggest anyone wanting to pass comment read SimonN's comment #2743 above first.
There have been legal costs, and you will expect higher costs when the legal matter goes to court. I disagree with Torrid's remarks that Wesley W. Whitmyer or Bruce Kirby who are both sailors are targeting the ILCA's money. Have no interest in debating it. Time will tell.
Just over two weeks to go before the scheduled motions hearing.

 

I will pass comment:

Over $800,000 and sometimes over $900,000 is much much too much for a nest egg.

In my Laser District, the District volunteers are very happy to have around $500 at year end.

WTF are ILCA doing with that kind of money as a nest egg?

Incredible.

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Enough to purchase an entire fleet of boats for a world championship

 

It could be a good thing to be able do

 

Best part would be buying them in Australia and shipping them in USED to the Americas or Europe.

especially with the Ozzie dollar as it is now

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Enough to purchase an entire fleet of boats for a world championship

 

It could be a good thing to be able do

 

Best part would be buying them in Australia and shipping them in USED to the Americas or Europe.

 

 

I'm fairly sure they'd still be liable for import duty here in the UK though

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With that kind of money in the bank and no explanation as to why, I would seriously consider not renewing my membership.

 

I have been an ILCA member for most of the past 25 years.

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Although the ILCA is not technically a not for profit organization, it should be operating under the principles of one. Not that Investopedia is necessarily the best place to check things out, it's a pretty good starting point. The first line in their definition of a not for profit organization reads: "A not for profit organization is a type of organization that does not earn profits for its owners. All of the money earned by or donated to a not for profit organization is used in pursuing the organization's objectives." Reading elsewhere suggests saving money for preservation etc. is OK, but there has to be a plan of some kind. I don't think there is any intentional skullduggery going on here, they just don't really know what they are doing.

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My guess is that most of that money is historic, built up in the boom years. Now the income levels are probably falling due to lower participation, they will be afraid to spend the money knowing they can never earn it back again.

 

What happens if an association disbands - do you spread the assets among remaining members? I feel a carpet bagging opportunity here!

 

Dont tell Rasty theres nearly a million dollars in the kitty, hell be after it before you can say Bruce Kirby ate my lunch.

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Like any other class association all this stuff is in the constitution and by laws... Still more fun speculating than looking it up...

 

http://www.laserinternational.org/sites/default/files/Constitution.pdf

http://www.laserinternational.org/sites/default/files/ILCA_By_Laws_2015.pdf

 

 


ILCA By-Law 6: Status and Dissolution

1. The Association is a non-profit organisation. All profit and surpluses shall be used to maintain or improve the Association's facilities and the objects of the Constitution.

2. No profit or surplus shall be distributed other than to another non-profit making body promoting international sailing on winding up or dissolution of the Association.

3. Dissolution shall be approved by each of:

(a ) The World Council

(b ) The Advisory Council

(c ) At least two thirds of the membership replying in writing to the International Office of the class in response to a postal ballot published by the International Office. Only those postal votes returned to the International Office within 6 months of the date of publication of the proposal to dissolve the Association shall be valid.

 

Does anyone know who the current advisory council members are BTW? They are nominated by trademark holding builders and have significant powers..

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Like any other class association all this stuff is in the constitution and by laws... Still more fun speculating than looking it up...

 

 

http://www.laserinternational.org/sites/default/files/Constitution.pdf

http://www.laserinternational.org/sites/default/files/ILCA_By_Laws_2015.pdf

 

 

ILCA By-Law 6: Status and Dissolution

1. The Association is a non-profit organisation. All profit and surpluses shall be used to maintain or improve the Association's facilities and the objects of the Constitution.

2. No profit or surplus shall be distributed other than to another non-profit making body promoting international sailing on winding up or dissolution of the Association.

3. Dissolution shall be approved by each of:

(a ) The World Council

(b ) The Advisory Council

(c ) At least two thirds of the membership replying in writing to the International Office of the class in response to a postal ballot published by the International Office. Only those postal votes returned to the International Office within 6 months of the date of publication of the proposal to dissolve the Association shall be valid.

Does anyone know who the current advisory council members are BTW? They are nominated by trademark holding builders and have significant powers..

 

 

Show off... But I suppose that as it is a UK entity, and "nonprofit organisation" is seemingly an undefined term in the UK, it is still all a bit sketchy.

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Show off... But I suppose that as it is a UK entity, and "nonprofit organisation" is seemingly an undefined term in the UK, it is still all a bit sketchy.

 

 

Not really. In the land of the endlessly litigated non-profit is a legal status, but over here it just means what it says on the tin. No profit, which is why the rules don't give the association any rights to distribute profits. Primarily, as Gouv says, the association is responsible to its members, and its down to you guys to monitor that your association is using its income to "maintain or improve the Association's facilities and the objects of the Constitution". Historically its always been felt over here that there was no great advantage in compulsory lawyering and accounting parasitising such organisations, but I fear that's changing.Too many charities seem to be more about their execs than their objects these days.

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Like any other class association all this stuff is in the constitution and by laws... Still more fun speculating than looking it up...

 

http://www.laserinternational.org/sites/default/files/Constitution.pdf

http://www.laserinternational.org/sites/default/files/ILCA_By_Laws_2015.pdf

 

 

ILCA By-Law 6: Status and Dissolution

1. The Association is a non-profit organisation. All profit and surpluses shall be used to maintain or improve the Association's facilities and the objects of the Constitution.

2. No profit or surplus shall be distributed other than to another non-profit making body promoting international sailing on winding up or dissolution of the Association.

3. Dissolution shall be approved by each of:

(a ) The World Council

(b ) The Advisory Council

(c ) At least two thirds of the membership replying in writing to the International Office of the class in response to a postal ballot published by the International Office. Only those postal votes returned to the International Office within 6 months of the date of publication of the proposal to dissolve the Association shall be valid.

 

Does anyone know who the current advisory council members are BTW? They are nominated by trademark holding builders and have significant powers..

that little document doesnt say under whose law its governed by, small but important omission.

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Show off... But I suppose that as it is a UK entity, and "nonprofit organisation" is seemingly an undefined term in the UK, it is still all a bit sketchy.

 

 

Not really. In the land of the endlessly litigated non-profit is a legal status, but over here it just means what it says on the tin. No profit, which is why the rules don't give the association any rights to distribute profits. Primarily, as Gouv says, the association is responsible to its members, and its down to you guys to monitor that your association is using its income to "maintain or improve the Association's facilities and the objects of the Constitution". Historically its always been felt over here that there was no great advantage in compulsory lawyering and accounting parasitising such organisations, but I fear that's changing.Too many charities seem to be more about their execs than their objects these days.

 

rules they tell you, the only non profit in the UK is a charity and its not a charity or in the last few years it could be a CASC Community Amateur Sports Club but its not.

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Show off... But I suppose that as it is a UK entity, and "nonprofit organisation" is seemingly an undefined term in the UK, it is still all a bit sketchy.

 

 

Not really. In the land of the endlessly litigated non-profit is a legal status, but over here it just means what it says on the tin. No profit, which is why the rules don't give the association any rights to distribute profits. Primarily, as Gouv says, the association is responsible to its members, and its down to you guys to monitor that your association is using its income to "maintain or improve the Association's facilities and the objects of the Constitution". Historically its always been felt over here that there was no great advantage in compulsory lawyering and accounting parasitising such organisations, but I fear that's changing.Too many charities seem to be more about their execs than their objects these days.

 

rules they tell you, the only non profit in the UK is a charity and its not a charity or in the last few years it could be a CASC Community Amateur Sports Club but its not.

 

ISAF a private company which it says but its an IOM company but try to find that in its documentation

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exactly Gouv

J24 and plenty of one design classes get along just fine with what you are saying

there is more labour building and opti than a laser and hows the price?

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its amazing how all their BS constitution etc explains what they do but nothing explains how it works

does the US builder own the ILCA?? you can hide anything in the IOM thats what its there for

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the only non profit in the UK is a charity and its not a charity or in the last few years it could be a CASC Community Amateur Sports Club but its not.

"Company Limited by Guarantee" is precisely intended for organisations that want to incorporate and don't distribute a profit. But I'm reasonably certain ILCA isn't one of those because I can't trace any registration at Companies House.

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the only non profit in the UK is a charity and its not a charity or in the last few years it could be a CASC Community Amateur Sports Club but its not.

"Company Limited by Guarantee" is precisely intended for organisations that want to incorporate and don't distribute a profit. But I'm reasonably certain ILCA isn't one of those because I can't trace any registration at Companies House.

 

bingo

they charge VAT, that will have a number and be connected to a UK legal entity, anyone bought anything from them that lives in the EU?

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No bingo I'm afraid. In the UK you don't have to be a company to charge VAT. It's possible for a sole trader (for example) to register for and charge VAT.

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No bingo I'm afraid. In the UK you don't have to be a company to charge VAT. It's possible for a sole trader (for example) to register for and charge VAT.

yes/no, as soon as your vat-able turnover hits the limit ( last I looked GBP82K) you must register. But was much lower years ago and very difficult to move out of the scheme

They state on their website they charge VAT for class flags

We could just send them an email and ask?

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I'm aware of the conditions to register for VAT thank you! As in my time I've registered, de-registered and re-registered. It's all about trading turnover and has nothing to do with being incorporated or not.

 

Asking ILCA for some facts is a radical suggestion. "Somebody" definitely should.

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Asking ILCA for some facts is a radical suggestion. "Somebody" definitely should.

 

World Council Members DISTRICT/FLEET CONTACT & ADDRESS EMAIL & WEBSITE

 

Tracy Usher (USA) - President PO Box 370701, Montara, Ca. 94037, USA. Home: +1 650 728 8312 Work: +1 650 926 3253 Tracy.Usher.ILCA@gmail.com

 

Hugh Leicester (AUS) - Vice President 37 Sauterne Cr Minchinbury NSW 2770 Australia

Home: +61 298321685 Work: +61 2477 38114 Mob: +61 418 283989

Fax: +61 2477 38050

 

Jeff Martin (GBR) - Executive Secretary ILCA, P O Box 26, Falmouth, Cornwall UK TR11 3DS

Tel: +44 1326 315064 Fax: +44 1326 318968 office@laserinternational.org

 

Heini Wellmann (SUI) - Past President Max-Daetwylerstrasse 26, CH-8126 Zumikon, Switzerland

Tel: +41 44980 4571 Fax: +41 44980 4606 heini@hmwellmann.ch

 

Ken Hurling (AUS) - Asia Pacific Chairman 118 The Promenade, Camp Hill, 4152 Queensland, Australia

Tel: +61 404 17644086 kenhurling@hotmail.com

 

Carlos Palombo (ARG) - Central & South America Chairman San Lorenzo 315 Piso 13, La Lucila, (c.p.1636) Buenos Aires, Argentina Home: +54 11 4799 1285 Mob: +54 911 4445 4253 cpalombo@palombohnos.com.ar

 

Andy Roy (USA) - North America Chairman Home: +1-705-927-7910 aroy1@bell.blackberry.net

 

Jean-Luc Michon (FRA) - European Chairman 29, Rue de la Judee, Le Bois Plage, 17580, FRANCE michonjl@hotmail.com

 

Chris Caldecoat (AUS) - Advisory Council Performance Sailcraft Pty Ltd, 2 Catamaran Road, Fountaindale, NSW 2258, AUSTRALIA chris@psasailing.com.au

 

Bill Crane (USA) - Advisory Council LaserPerformance North America, 300 Highpoint Avenue, Portsmouth, RI, 02871, USA wscrane@gmail.com

 

Consultants

DISTRICT/FLEET CONTACT & ADDRESS EMAIL & WEBSITE

 

Takao Otani (JPN)Technical Consultant 3-13-31, Kamitsuchitana-minami, Ayase, Kanagawa Ken, 252-1103, Japan Tel: +81 467761051 Fax: +81 467761052 otani@psjpn.co.jp

 

Jean-Luc Michon (FRA) - Chief Measurer 29 Rue de la Judee, 17580 Le Bois Plage en Re, France

Home: +33 546 099832 Mob: +33 662 109832 chiefmeasurer@laserinternational.org

 

Technical and Measurement Committee

  • Tracy Usher (USA) Chairman
  • Jean-Luc Michon (FRA)
  • Takao Otani (JPN)

Advisory Council

  • Tracy Usher (USA)
  • Hugh Leicester (AUS)
  • Chris Spencer (AUS)
  • Bill Crane (USA)

Asian Pacific Regional Office

1b Pembroke Crescent, Glendowie, Auckland 1071, New Zealand

E-mail: info@laserasiapacific.com

Website: laserasiapacific.com/

  • Chairman - Ken Hurling (AUS)
  • 1st Vice Chairman - Nick Page (NZL)
  • 2nd Vice Chairman - Takao Otani (JPN)
  • Secretary - Suellen Hurling (NZL)

Central & South American Regional Office

San Lorenzo 315 Piso 13, La Lucila, (c.p.1636) Buenos Aires, Argentina

Tel: + 54 11 4799 1285 Fax: +54 911 4445 4253

E-mail: cpalombo@palombohnos.com.ar

    • Chairman and Executive Secretary - Carlos Palombo (ARG)
    • Vice Chairman - Andrea Foglia (URU)

European Regional Office

EurILCA

c/o Société Nautique de Genève, Port Noir, CH-1223 Cologny, Suisse

E-mail: info@eurilca.org

Website: www.eurilca.org

    • Chairman - Jean-Luc Michon (FRA)
    • Vice Chairman - Macrino Macri (ITA)

North American Regional Office

One Design Management, 2812 Canon St., San Diego CA 92106, USA

Tel: +1 619-222-0252

Fax: +1 619-222-0528

Email: admin@laser.org

Website: http://www.laser.org

Clickable map of NA Districts

    • Chairman - Andy Roy (USA)
    • Vice Chairman - Meka Taulbee (USA)
    • Executive Director - Sherri Campbell (USA)

Each office can provide information on regattas and contacts within their region. Alternatively, for more localised information, contact your nearest District or Fleet representative.

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find the one that is a lawyer and ask them. I'll bet the rest dont know is it particular to the country its based in or maybe its in a cloud hence the PO box address?

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Andy Roy is Canadian. Canada is the "North" part of "North America". He has been racing Lasers forever.

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Many years ago (around the major rule changes voting on Vang, Outhaul, etc) in the Laser newsletter, it stated that there was about 100,000 pounds in the bank at the International Laser Class Association head office in England.

 

How much is in the bank these days? I can't find it in the newsletters or am I just blind?

 

It's in the Dec 2014 Laser World - it's at the very bottom of the table - they've used the same format for years. The figures are:

  • 2014 US$850,444
  • 2013 US$832,599
  • 2012 £547,696 (British pounds)
  • 2011 £635,482 (British pounds)

Last two figures were posted in Dec 2012 Laser World, first two in Dec 2014.

 

I'm pretty sure I have the report in a printed copy of Laser World that has it, but it's stored in a box many miles away from where I am right now. It's easy enough to look up, it will be in the Dec 2007 issue from memory. Also from memory it was higher than £100,000, fairly sure it was in the region of £400,000, as I recall discussing the amount around 2009. (I can't believe I remember this stuff.) I can recall a Laser sailing mate asking "what's it needed for?", and it being referred to as 'Jeff Martin's war chest'.

 

It's fair to say that the ILCA is in pretty good shape financially.

 

Pretty good shape? Understatement!

What other Class Association even comes close to that amount?

War chest? Did Jeff know this was battle coming way back when?

 

 

Helps me understand why Rastegar would want to setup his own parallel, separate "Laser Sailing Union". That is quite a revenue stream.

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The accumulated funds, the number of representatives, and the structure of the ILCA, there is no other SMOD class association like it. Only the Opti class association is of a similar size, and SMOD makes the ILCA different in many ways. Given the size of the ILCA, having 15,000 members, and having new boats supplied for major championships (a possible contingency to be provided for?) all makes having a larger accumulated fund make more sense. Again, the picture is incomplete, which returns us to the many questions that as Gouv points out members, even exec members, have been asking for years.

 

I tried to second guess my comment earlier about the the world headquarters being in Switzerland. In doing so, I came across this in the Feb 2014 ILCA-NA ExCom Minutes:

2.Status of action items.

a. Sponsorship update: Andy sent 2 emails to LP/Bill Crane with no response. Suggested to check in with Tracy Usher and ILCA for status.
b. Update from from Andy from the ILCA World Council. Current legal action is pending with a court date still set for early summer. The European region has been split from ILCA and is now operating in Switzerland. A new championship online registration system is in the testing phase and should be live soon. The release of the new sail is on hold. 2014 Laser Handbook was shipped last week to regional offices for distribution.
Source: http://www.laser.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1062:2014-february-excom-minutes&catid=21:official&Itemid=250

 

The important part is "The European region has been split from ILCA and is now operating in Switzerland. " My mistake from memory, was reading earlier that the UK office had been moved to Switzerland meant that the world headquarters had moved. I am now unclear that was the case. I do recall hearing that Eric F had set up an office in Texas, which is confirmed by ILCA-NA minutes.

 

I hadn't read the ILCA-NA minutes for a while, here's something of interest from Dec 2014:

c. Tracy Usher discussed availability of parts. Centerboards & rudders in particular are difficult as LP had been producing in China, which has now ceased and the mfg has moved to RI. Supplied sails are also difficult as they are keeping inventory low in anticipation of the new sail release. LP has made a commitment to improve the supply situation going forward. Discussion of added equipment inspection to ensure Class legal equipment is being used at events. The new sail will be sold with a new distribution model through dealer. The old sail will be sold through dealers at a competitive price with the training sail. Discussion of Class membership & value.

(Source = http://www.laser.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1098:2014-december-excom-minutes&catid=21:official&Itemid=250)

 

New distribution model has the potential to mean that there are fewer hands the sail passes through to get to the Laser sailor. This I believe would be an excellent move. I would love to hear more details of this new distribution model. I could not find further mention of it.

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Many years ago (around the major rule changes voting on Vang, Outhaul, etc) in the Laser newsletter, it stated that there was about 100,000 pounds in the bank at the International Laser Class Association head office in England.

 

How much is in the bank these days? I can't find it in the newsletters or am I just blind?

 

It's in the Dec 2014 Laser World - it's at the very bottom of the table - they've used the same format for years. The figures are:

  • 2014 US$850,444
  • 2013 US$832,599
  • 2012 £547,696 (British pounds)
  • 2011 £635,482 (British pounds)

Last two figures were posted in Dec 2012 Laser World, first two in Dec 2014.

 

I'm pretty sure I have the report in a printed copy of Laser World that has it, but it's stored in a box many miles away from where I am right now. It's easy enough to look up, it will be in the Dec 2007 issue from memory. Also from memory it was higher than £100,000, fairly sure it was in the region of £400,000, as I recall discussing the amount around 2009. (I can't believe I remember this stuff.) I can recall a Laser sailing mate asking "what's it needed for?", and it being referred to as 'Jeff Martin's war chest'.

 

It's fair to say that the ILCA is in pretty good shape financially.

 

Pretty good shape? Understatement!

What other Class Association even comes close to that amount?

War chest? Did Jeff know this was battle coming way back when?

 

 

Helps me understand why Rastegar would want to setup his own parallel, separate "Laser Sailing Union". That is quite a revenue stream.

 

maybe Rastegar already owns the ILCA in the UK and NA

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Who says no one knows why??

We sure don't have the same concerns.

A visible cash reserve doesn't bother me at all

I want to know about every other penny. Where does the money come from? Where does it go?

And the huge one!!!

Is there any money being spent by advertisers, builders, regatta hosts, or anyone who wishes to have access to the influence of class employees or officers that is not being clearly described and reported to the full membership ??

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Is there any money being spent by advertisers, builders, regatta hosts, or anyone who wishes to have access to the influence of class employees or officers that is not being clearly described and reported to the full membership ??

It's not just about influencing class employees and officials. It's also about influencing anybody who could "change" the game. How about a pram manufacturer owned by the person who owns LPE sponsoring ISAF and that sponsorship coinciding with ISAF approving the class rule change and instructing the class to issue revised plaques. I don't often attack ISAF, but this one stinks

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That one had passed me by. Yes it's bad, though IMO the Gazprom sponsorship is worse, in a different way.

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Is there any money being spent by advertisers, builders, regatta hosts, or anyone who wishes to have access to the influence of class employees or officers that is not being clearly described and reported to the full membership ??

It's not just about influencing class employees and officials. It's also about influencing anybody who could "change" the game. How about a pram manufacturer owned by the person who owns LPE sponsoring ISAF and that sponsorship coinciding with ISAF approving the class rule change and instructing the class to issue revised plaques. I don't often attack ISAF, but this one stinks

 

ISAF that organisation in the I.O.M.......

( where 99% of American Trusts are held)

just saying..

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You can hang out with the riff-raff and spout conspiracy theories:

 

 

Or you can join the class and enjoy the best racing there is to be found:

 

 

I'll pick the class!

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Wow talk about picking the worst songs from each band, not a persuader unless you like standing around parking lots drinking lukewarm beer (sorry Poms) head nodding to old shit ( hey leonard skinner) and talking about some slag you once knew

70s died and passed away bro

Lived through it don't need to revisit

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Wess.... I spout no conspiracy theories and make no accusations

There are questions

There should be easily accessible answers to every question I have posed

In fact, were I involved in the ILCA operations as I was with the North American region, the answers to every one of of those questions would be published annually and available at any (reasonable) time at any regatta I attended. ( Racing comes first)

One step further?? I would not accept employment with such an organization unless it had a contractual obligation to pay for the necessary level of annual audits to preserve my reputation. There are simply too many malicious nut jobs who get their jollies by attempting to trash people's good names. I would not risk un defended public exposure.

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Wow talk about picking the worst songs from each band, not a persuader unless you like standing around parking lots drinking lukewarm beer (sorry Poms) head nodding to old shit ( hey leonard skinner) and talking about some slag you once knew

70s died and passed away bro

Lived through it don't need to revisit

Always happy to revisit that and earlier.

 

 

Cannt kinda reminds me of Nixon but it was actually the Gov (of Ohio) that was responsible.

 

How about this one?

 

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It was the dumbasses who pulled their triggers.

It was the morons who gave those young undertrained kids guns to defend a field against children who wanted to run around and yell anti war slogans

It was the fools who voted tide knuckleheads into office

It was the everybody who so willingly worked the country into a divided frenzy

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It was the dumbasses who pulled their triggers.

It was the morons who gave those young undertrained kids guns to defend a field against children who wanted to run around and yell anti war slogans

It was the fools who voted tide knuckleheads into office

It was the everybody who so willingly worked the country into a divided frenzy

There you go. Exactly.

 

So put down the pitchfork and Torches (that were a hoax anyway), be glad the class rules are what they are now. If grey hair is owed past money the judge will say so and he will get paid. If Grey hair has anything of value left unsold he will sell it and get paid future money.

 

Everything will be fine. Don't need a divided frenzy.

 

How about this one:

 

 

This increases my paranoia...

 

Well I'm not giving in an inch to fear...

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We aren't in the loop and whether Kirby gets paid is of no consequence to our sailing expense

 

I started the discussion asking just what the hell the class does because there is no news on the lawsuit front and most of all

WE OUGHT TO ALL KNOW EXACLY WHAT THE CLASS DOES!!!

 

What class funds and manpower are specifically targeted at helping the game you and your friends play??

Your fleet sends hundreds of dollars to the ILCA annually. Why should you send that money?

Your posts indicate to me a sort of ILCA cheerleading effort is going on and my question pertains to WHAT IS THE ILCA? WHAT DO THEY DO THAT INSPIRES YOU TO CHEERLEAD??

Repeating my position:

I have no idea what the ILCA does, why it does it, where it gets its money, how it is didn't, why, and whether there is other money extracted from

Advertisers, regatta hosts, or anyone at any time who thinks that money goes to the organization.

 

I am curious why anyone would CHEERLEAD without knowing the answers

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We aren't in the loop and whether Kirby gets paid is of no consequence to our sailing expense

 

I started the discussion asking just what the hell the class does because there is no news on the lawsuit front and most of all

WE OUGHT TO ALL KNOW EXACLY WHAT THE CLASS DOES!!!

 

What class funds and manpower are specifically targeted at helping the game you and your friends play??

Your fleet sends hundreds of dollars to the ILCA annually. Why should you send that money?

Your posts indicate to me a sort of ILCA cheerleading effort is going on and my question pertains to WHAT IS THE ILCA? WHAT DO THEY DO THAT INSPIRES YOU TO CHEERLEAD??

Repeating my position:

I have no idea what the ILCA does, why it does it, where it gets its money, how it is didn't, why, and whether there is other money extracted from

Advertisers, regatta hosts, or anyone at any time who thinks that money goes to the organization.

 

I am curious why anyone would CHEERLEAD without knowing the answers

They enable the best racing there is.

 

Because I decided long ago to stay... the racing is too good and the people are great.

 

 

Best fleet and best bang for the buck. Don't need to to know anything else.

 

PS, let the video keep going...

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OK Wess.. I give up.

You have FAITH in the ILCA.

I know better than to question a man's FAITH or ask him to question it himself .

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Just 10 more days until the scheduled motions hearings.

  • [262] MOTION to Seal Exhibits1-4,
  • [180] MOTION for Summary Judgment ,
  • [184] MOTION for Summary Judgment ,
  • [183] First MOTION for Summary Judgment ,
  • [186] MOTION for Summary Judgment ,
  • [174] First MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction and Pursuant to Fed. R. Civ. P. 12(B)(2) and (B)(6).

180 is Kirby's move to dismiss specific counterclaims and 186 is LP's motion (not the first) to dismiss all Kirby's claims. Fairly sure (not 100% sure) the motions to seal are regarding recent affidavits given by A Walker.

 

In the mean time, ILCA has definitely made internal changes since Tracy Usher was made President. However, only the broadest statements have been made public, the last were in the President's report Dec 2014 published in Laser World. Also, ILCA-NA have noted a smaller turnout for several events this summer just been.

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"Should I stay or should I go?" is the wrong Clash metaphor. The correct analogy for the Laser fiasco is "Train in Vain".

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OK Wess.. I give up.

You have FAITH in the ILCA.

I know better than to question a man's FAITH or ask him to question it himself .

 

Are you really going to force me to post this? Ugh!!

 

 

Gouv - you are evil!

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"Should I stay or should I go?" is the wrong Clash metaphor. The correct analogy for the Laser fiasco is "Train in Vain".

Hey, thanks for saving me from ending on a George Michael "note."

 

Perhaps this one sums up the mess well?