Otterbox

Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

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Betcha the judge has a copy.

Of course the judge has a copy.

 

But what about Gannt, who appears to know what is in the affidavits? What's his connection?

 

I think Gantt just makes stuff up.

 

SM123, in PSA's successful motion to strike Crane's accusations, they quote Crane's affidavit directly and provide a summary of it's contents. I found it revealing.

It can be found here: http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/download.html?id=167193467&z=90fc3276

 

Also revealing IMJ were the accusations contained in LP's counterclaim. As it turned out, LP was unable to produce evidence that supported their accusations.

Gannt,

 

thanks for pointing this out.

 

I don't see anything particularly revealing in that document. All it seems to show is that LPE attempts to use evidence from Crane that doesn't really mean as much as LPE tries to imply.

 

What else would you expect in a lawsuit? Every side tries to portray the evidence and the law in the light that benefits them most: frequently being selective on the parts of the law and parts of the evidence that they choose to quote.

 

I agree with you SM123. What's revealing is that we have Andy Roy from the ILCA world council coming on this forum and implies that Crane does what his employer says, then saying that Crane "gets it" - whatever that means.

What's revealing is that Crane says that PSA “knew and approved of Kevlar’s actions.” while providing no evidence to support such a claim. Either Crane has demonstrated that he is prepared to lie on behalf of his employer, or at least 'over reach'; that he is more enthusiastic in backing some 'creative' accusations that LP made than Andy would like you to believe. (My take is that Crane is an enthusiastic supporter of not adhering to the builder's contract signed in 2005, of cutting Kirby out of the picture)

Either way, Crane's supporting documentation fell short of his objective - to involve PSA in Kirby's legal action against LP.

And we have a ILCA World Council member making public statements in support of Bill Crane 'getting it'??

 

With respect Gannt, I think you are unfamiliar with how the affidavit process works in US adversarial legal system. If LP discovered PS blades being sold in the US then LP's lawyers are absolutely going to include language in the affidavit.......it would have been phrased something like

"Upon information and belief, PSA knew and approved of Kevlars actions"

It's a reasonable belief and any half way decent lawyer acting for LP would include it in the affidavit that their client signs.

In a complex case you start off by including every possible avenue of claim and then let the discovery process and the rulings winnow it down.

To my eye, there was nothing over enthusiastic about the brief extract from the afadavit. Both sides would have submitted strongly worded affidavits including every possible suggestion of wrong doing by the opposing party. The BKI parties suggested there was collusion and tortious interference at meetings they didn't attend. Absolutely you include everything you suspect......and then you try and back it up.

The judge will then use a set of well tried and tested rules to determine which suspicions are allowed in front of a jury (or the judge)and which are not.

But it is key to get all your suspicions out there. Even if they are disallowed, a good litigation lawyer is painting a picture for the judge. At every conference and with every motion you are trying to set the stage.

The judge knows how the contest is played and half of the claims and motions will be gone by the time a case goes to court.

 

This one will not go to court. It will settle. ( my bet, not knowledge) The only surprise is that it is taking so long to get down to brass tacks . The longer this goes on the losers in this process are LP and GS.

 

The bulk of the documents will remain sealed leaving the fans on this forum none the wiser.

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Don't you just hate it when IPLore injects common sense and reason into this discussion?

 

What makes it worse is that he clearly understands how legal disputes like this work and why the lawyers do what they do.

 

Why can't he just make stuff up like the rest of us on this thread?

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If LP discovered PS blades being sold in the US then LP's lawyers are absolutely going to include language in the affidavit.......it would have been phrased something like

Upon information and belief, PSA knew and approved of Kevlars actions"

....

 

The bulk of the documents will remain sealed leaving the fans on this forum none the wiser.

LP's lawyers are absolutely going to include language in the affidavit.......it would have been phrased something like

Uh, no, that's not how it works. The "information and belief" would be found in a motion. The affidavits are supposed to give facts, so "belief" has no useful place in it.

 

To put it another way, the affidavit should provide a factual basis for the claim of "information and belief". In this case, there was insufficient factual basis for the "information and and belief" that PSA was knowingly selling Laser parts in the USA.

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Don't you just hate it when IPLore injects common sense and reason into this discussion?

 

What makes it worse is that he clearly understands how legal disputes like this work and why the lawyers do what they do.

 

Why can't he just make stuff up like the rest of us on this thread?

 

You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

 

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

 

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

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You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

 

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

 

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

 

 

 

Yes. I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

 

Yes. I will continue to write some positive posts about Laser sailing on my blog. Like the ones I published already this year on Feb 2, 18, 29, April 23, 25 and May 21. I love my Laser.

 

NO! I don't think it's a joke when the designer of the boat I love decides to sue the manufacturer of the boat and my class. Especially my class. I think it's terrible. But I am not a very very serious person. Here and on my blog I like to poke fun at things which I find amusing about sailing. Especially my own sailing blunders.

 

So shoot me. (That was a joke too.)

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OMG. I got pulled over by the Po-Po w blue lights flashing today. Was so scared Gouv was right and started to search for the sticker hoping grey hairs name was on it. Could not find grey hairs name!!! Oh sh*t. The jack booted thug first indicated I was going to fast and then he asked the papers and I knew I was screwed.

 

Fortunately he knew me and was joking and told me to get the whaler back on plane and haul ass to get to the Herndon climb. From there it's 3 more years till heading off to keep the south china sea open and the world safe for red lasers! :-)

 

Well unless she goes marines...

 

A laser sailing marine?! Good grief what a thought... No way; gotta be subs or SWO.

 

Carry on!

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You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

 

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

 

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

 

Yes. I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

 

Yes. I will continue to write some positive posts about Laser sailing on my blog. Like the ones I published already this year on Feb 2, 18, 29, April 23, 25 and May 21. I love my Laser.

 

NO! I don't think it's a joke when the designer of the boat I love decides to sue the manufacturer of the boat and my class. Especially my class. I think it's terrible. But I am not a very very serious person. Here and on my blog I like to poke fun at things which I find amusing about sailing. Especially my own sailing blunders.

 

So shoot me. (That was a joke too.)

IPLore is someone who states again and again (in error) that Global sailing is PSA's parent - this is classic troll behaviour. IPLore uses 'facts' selectively - most recently to apparently counter that I found LP's and Crane's statements revealing. He dresses up the sale of centreboards as if it were a reasonable argument, makes the claim that nobody disagreed that they were PSA centreboards (while true is irrelevant) - my point was that was the best that LP / Crane had - and it fell short in the court's eyes. (The statements revealed that LP's counterclaims started with accusations, then went hunting for evidence to support them. I think what it revealed most of all was that evidence is very difficult to get when it does not exist.) We have IPLore making the untrue claim that I don't understand affidavits, then 'explaining' (poorly) how affidavits in the US legal system work. And now we have Tiller man saying that IPLore is the voice of reason. Sheesh.

 

I agree that Tiller Man has written some positive things about the Laser in his blog Proper Course. I had to look for them - he's are right, while they are there, there are very few of late. Tiller Man claims that on April 29 he wrote positive things about the Laser, he didn't - at least any thinking person would conclude he didn't - what he was referring to is the only blog posted on April 29, a satirical piece directly comparing the Aero to the Laser. It is very negative about the Laser. Here's an excerpt:

3. Mainsheet Fun

The Laser has been cleverly designed with the sheet running to a traveler at the rear of the boat and nice square corners at the rear end of the hull which will conveniently catch the sheet if it trails in the water when you are gybing and give you a surprise by quickly capsizing the boat and throwing you in the water. Ha ha ha!

 

Ha ha ha!

 

Whereas the designer of the RS Aero, for reasons I just don't understand, designed it with a center sheeting system so you get none of the above-mentioned surprise capsize fun that you get with a Laser. Boring!

 

Source: http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2016/04/7-reasons-why-laser-is-better-than-rs.html

 

Tiller Man's blog Proper Course has morphed into a promotional tool for the RS Aero, though it's still mentions Lasers a little. (Like when Tiller Man sailed his Aero in a Laser fleet and won most of the races). There is no denying that Tiller Man is doing an outstanding job promoting the Aero, he is even fleet captain of a fledgling Aero fleet - good luck!

 

But back to the post that Tiller Man wrote above. When reading it, I had the feeling that I had read very similar things before, except that Wess had written them. Wess is also a fan of IPLore, and admits liking to poke fun at people.

 

I thought that was quite a coincidence, so I decided to look for more 'coincidences'. After a quick look, here's what I found:

  • Both Wess and Tiller Man joined SA in June 2006 (Tiller man was first)
  • Wess posts lots of videos to this forum, whereas Tiller Man posts videos in his blog Proper Course. What I found interesting is that both use videos to make points in a similar, almost identical way, both have a remarkably similar taste in videos posted - with a definite UK bias.
  • Both think it's terrible that Kirby sued the ILCA, both are very defensive of the ILCA.
  • Both have an unusual blend of UK/US English usage. (Tillerman moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s)
  • Both use satire in a similar way.

I hope that this puts an end to the speculation that Wess is Bill Crane.

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You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

 

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

 

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

 

Yes. I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

 

Yes. I will continue to write some positive posts about Laser sailing on my blog. Like the ones I published already this year on Feb 2, 18, 29, April 23, 25 and May 21. I love my Laser.

 

NO! I don't think it's a joke when the designer of the boat I love decides to sue the manufacturer of the boat and my class. Especially my class. I think it's terrible. But I am not a very very serious person. Here and on my blog I like to poke fun at things which I find amusing about sailing. Especially my own sailing blunders.

 

So shoot me. (That was a joke too.)

IPLore is someone who states again and again (in error) that Global sailing is PSA's parent - this is classic troll behaviour. IPLore uses 'facts' selectively - most recently to apparently counter that I found LP's and Crane's statements revealing. He dresses up the sale of centreboards as if it were a reasonable argument, makes the claim that nobody disagreed that they were PSA centreboards (while true is irrelevant) - my point was that was the best that LP / Crane had - and it fell short in the court's eyes. (The statements revealed that LP's counterclaims started with accusations, then went hunting for evidence to support them. I think what it revealed most of all was that evidence is very difficult to get when it does not exist.) We have IPLore making the untrue claim that I don't understand affidavits, then 'explaining' (poorly) how affidavits in the US legal system work. And now we have Tiller man saying that IPLore is the voice of reason. Sheesh.

 

I agree that Tiller Man has written some positive things about the Laser in his blog Proper Course. I had to look for them - he's are right, while they are there, there are very few of late. Tiller Man claims that on April 29 he wrote positive things about the Laser, he didn't - at least any thinking person would conclude he didn't - what he was referring to is the only blog posted on April 29, a satirical piece directly comparing the Aero to the Laser. It is very negative about the Laser. Here's an excerpt:

3. Mainsheet Fun

The Laser has been cleverly designed with the sheet running to a traveler at the rear of the boat and nice square corners at the rear end of the hull which will conveniently catch the sheet if it trails in the water when you are gybing and give you a surprise by quickly capsizing the boat and throwing you in the water. Ha ha ha!

 

Ha ha ha!

 

Whereas the designer of the RS Aero, for reasons I just don't understand, designed it with a center sheeting system so you get none of the above-mentioned surprise capsize fun that you get with a Laser. Boring!

 

Source: http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2016/04/7-reasons-why-laser-is-better-than-rs.html

 

Tiller Man's blog Proper Course has morphed into a promotional tool for the RS Aero, though it's still mentions Lasers a little. (Like when Tiller Man sailed his Aero in a Laser fleet and won most of the races). There is no denying that Tiller Man is doing an outstanding job promoting the Aero, he is even fleet captain of a fledgling Aero fleet - good luck!

 

But back to the post that Tiller Man wrote above. When reading it, I had the feeling that I had read very similar things before, except that Wess had written them. Wess is also a fan of IPLore, and admits liking to poke fun at people.

 

I thought that was quite a coincidence, so I decided to look for more 'coincidences'. After a quick look, here's what I found:

  • Both Wess and Tiller Man joined SA in June 2006 (Tiller man was first)
  • Wess posts lots of videos to this forum, whereas Tiller Man posts videos in his blog Proper Course. What I found interesting is that both use videos to make points in a similar, almost identical way, both have a remarkably similar taste in videos posted - with a definite UK bias.
  • Both think it's terrible that Kirby sued the ILCA, both are very defensive of the ILCA.
  • Both have an unusual blend of UK/US English usage. (Tillerman moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s)
  • Both use satire in a similar way.

I hope that this puts an end to the speculation that Wess is Bill Crane.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

The best ever. Had to save it.

 

Got a video for you Canntt (understand sh*t)...

 

 

Think about it for a while... ;)

 

Sorry Tillerman but Canntt has found us out. Gosh I love our Aero!!

 

Fish on!!

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LOL. Poor old Gantt has finally lost it.

 

Upon information and belief, Tillerman now knows for sure that Gantt just makes stuff up.

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You really want to align yourself with a known troll like IPLore? I'm doing my best to ignore his/her uninformed, slanted and error riddled posts.

 

I for one, am someone who does not make up stuff for this thread. I'd like to hear if you will ever resume writing about Laser sailing in a positive way - instead of using your blog proper course to take pot shots at the Laser and promote the RS Aero.

 

Do you really think Kirby's legal action is a big joke Tillerman?

 

Yes. I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

 

Yes. I will continue to write some positive posts about Laser sailing on my blog. Like the ones I published already this year on Feb 2, 18, 29, April 23, 25 and May 21. I love my Laser.

 

NO! I don't think it's a joke when the designer of the boat I love decides to sue the manufacturer of the boat and my class. Especially my class. I think it's terrible. But I am not a very very serious person. Here and on my blog I like to poke fun at things which I find amusing about sailing. Especially my own sailing blunders.

 

So shoot me. (That was a joke too.)

IPLore is someone who states again and again (in error) that Global sailing is PSA's parent - this is classic troll behaviour. IPLore uses 'facts' selectively - most recently to apparently counter that I found LP's and Crane's statements revealing. He dresses up the sale of centreboards as if it were a reasonable argument, makes the claim that nobody disagreed that they were PSA centreboards (while true is irrelevant) - my point was that was the best that LP / Crane had - and it fell short in the court's eyes. (The statements revealed that LP's counterclaims started with accusations, then went hunting for evidence to support them. I think what it revealed most of all was that evidence is very difficult to get when it does not exist.) We have IPLore making the untrue claim that I don't understand affidavits, then 'explaining' (poorly) how affidavits in the US legal system work. And now we have Tiller man saying that IPLore is the voice of reason. Sheesh.

 

I agree that Tiller Man has written some positive things about the Laser in his blog Proper Course. I had to look for them - he's are right, while they are there, there are very few of late. Tiller Man claims that on April 29 he wrote positive things about the Laser, he didn't - at least any thinking person would conclude he didn't - what he was referring to is the only blog posted on April 29, a satirical piece directly comparing the Aero to the Laser. It is very negative about the Laser. Here's an excerpt:

3. Mainsheet Fun

The Laser has been cleverly designed with the sheet running to a traveler at the rear of the boat and nice square corners at the rear end of the hull which will conveniently catch the sheet if it trails in the water when you are gybing and give you a surprise by quickly capsizing the boat and throwing you in the water. Ha ha ha!

 

Ha ha ha!

 

Whereas the designer of the RS Aero, for reasons I just don't understand, designed it with a center sheeting system so you get none of the above-mentioned surprise capsize fun that you get with a Laser. Boring!

 

Source: http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2016/04/7-reasons-why-laser-is-better-than-rs.html

 

Tiller Man's blog Proper Course has morphed into a promotional tool for the RS Aero, though it's still mentions Lasers a little. (Like when Tiller Man sailed his Aero in a Laser fleet and won most of the races). There is no denying that Tiller Man is doing an outstanding job promoting the Aero, he is even fleet captain of a fledgling Aero fleet - good luck!

 

But back to the post that Tiller Man wrote above. When reading it, I had the feeling that I had read very similar things before, except that Wess had written them. Wess is also a fan of IPLore, and admits liking to poke fun at people.

 

I thought that was quite a coincidence, so I decided to look for more 'coincidences'. After a quick look, here's what I found:

  • Both Wess and Tiller Man joined SA in June 2006 (Tiller man was first)
  • Wess posts lots of videos to this forum, whereas Tiller Man posts videos in his blog Proper Course. What I found interesting is that both use videos to make points in a similar, almost identical way, both have a remarkably similar taste in videos posted - with a definite UK bias.
  • Both think it's terrible that Kirby sued the ILCA, both are very defensive of the ILCA.
  • Both have an unusual blend of UK/US English usage. (Tillerman moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s)
  • Both use satire in a similar way.

I hope that this puts an end to the speculation that Wess is Bill Crane.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

The best ever. Had to save it.

 

Got a video for you Canntt (understand sh*t)...

 

 

Think about it for a while... ;)

 

Sorry Tillerman but Canntt has found us out. Gosh I love our Aero!!

 

Fish on!!

 

 

Damn. I guess the fact that we both know how to post videos was a dead giveaway?

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Damn. I guess the fact that we both know how to post videos was a dead giveaway?

 

 

 

Naw, I think its that we both actually sail and apparently don't think the sky is falling. But I will try to distract him from the sad truth of our DID diagnosis by posting a non-UK style video.

 

Hey Canntt while you were typing this weekend I was sailing. Then yesterday I was again "on a boat:"

 

 

Tiller Man - If we both take valium to treat our DID will we be ourselves again?

 

PS - Do you think he gets our Black Queen reference? :ph34r:

PPS - And don't you log back in as me while you being me being you and edit out the "our"... ;)

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Are you guys switching sides just to see who is still paying attention?

 

There are sides?

 

I don't take sides in things like this. It's just a commercial argument between two crazy old rich coots in the US and one crazy very rich old family in New Zealand as to who gets to control the manufacture of our toys and who gets to gather a few more dollars from each of us when we buy one of those toys. I think they are all more or less equally to blame. A plague on all their houses.

 

This dispute exposes some of the worst features of western greed and capitalism. The sooner the Chinese steal the secrets of how to make the Laser and start shipping well made cheap red Lasers to the whole world, the better off we all will be.

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Are you guys switching sides just to see who is still paying attention?

 

There are sides?

 

I don't take sides in things like this. It's just a commercial argument between two crazy old rich coots in the US and one crazy very rich old family in New Zealand as to who gets to control the manufacture of our toys and who gets to gather a few more dollars from each of us when we buy one of those toys. I think they are all more or less equally to blame. A plague on all their houses.

 

This dispute exposes some of the worst features of western greed and capitalism. The sooner the Chinese steal the secrets of how to make the Laser and start shipping well made cheap red Lasers to the whole world, the better off we all will be.

 

OMG, I feel the EXACT same way. I mean I could have written that. :D

 

Oh wait...

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they made a lot of T model fords but they eventually stopped didnt they

of course if the guardians of sailing ran the automotive world we would be still driving t model Fords for sure.

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It shouldn't be a surprise that we will all be importing Lasers from China in the very near future. The US has been importing more goods from China than any other country for nearly 10 years. That might change if Trump gets in, but there already is a wall in place...

 

Will the sails still be made in Sri Lanka? Probably - I believe the wages there are much lower than in China. If my Google research and calculator skills are correct, the minimum wage in Sri Lanka is less than $65 per month.

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You really should make certain your children and grandchildren are fluent in Chinese. They might be able to hold jobs as trustys working for the new government

我喜欢你的吊臂切

Wǒ xǐhuān nǐ de diào bì qiè

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Weird .....

 

You really should make certain your children and grandchildren are fluent in Chinese. They might be able to hold jobs as trustys working for the new government

我喜欢你的吊臂切

Wǒ xǐhuān nǐ de diào bì qiè

 

 

Sh*t that is funny. Post of the thread, Gouv.

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Are you guys switching sides just to see who is still paying attention?

There are sides?

 

I don't take sides in things like this. It's just a commercial argument between two crazy old rich coots in the US and one crazy very rich old family in New Zealand as to who gets to control the manufacture of our toys and who gets to gather a few more dollars from each of us when we buy one of those toys. I think they are all more or less equally to blame. A plague on all their houses.

 

This dispute exposes some of the worst features of western greed and capitalism. The sooner the Chinese steal the secrets of how to make the Laser and start shipping well made cheap red Lasers to the whole world, the better off we all will be.

 

 

Ha! Tiller Man (Like IPLore who he claims to be a fan of) claims he doesn't take sides, then posts his slanted version of what's going on.

 

In TillerMan's "not taking sides" he omits that the ILCA is a party to the legal action, or how disgusted he is that Kirby has sued the ILCA. I'm guessing, based on what TillerMan has written previously that he is now very satisfied with all of the actions of the ILCA. If so, it's difficult to see around the idea that he, like the ILCA, is in support of Laser Performance.

 

It's almost as if in Tiller Man's mind, there is no dispute between Kirby and the ILCA.

 

This is a bit like his claims that his blog Proper Course has positive posts about the Laser. While it's true that Proper Course does post positive stuff about the Laser, over the last year Proper Course has contained a lot of negative stuff about the Laser, and far far far more positive stuff for the RS Aero, which Tiller Man is doing an outstanding job of promoting.

 

Note that I drew everyone's attention to the coincidences between Wess and Tiller Man. Here's what I wrote again:

 

 

 

I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

(Snipped)

 

But back to the post that Tiller Man wrote above. When reading it, I had the feeling that I had read very similar things before, except that Wess had written them. Wess is also a fan of IPLore, and admits liking to poke fun at people.

 

I thought that was quite a coincidence, so I decided to look for more 'coincidences'. After a quick look, here's what I found:

  • Both Wess and Tiller Man joined SA in June 2006 (Tiller man was first)
  • Wess posts lots of videos to this forum, whereas Tiller Man posts videos in his blog Proper Course. What I found interesting is that both use videos to make points in a similar, almost identical way, both have a remarkably similar taste in videos posted - with a definite UK bias.
  • Both think it's terrible that Kirby sued the ILCA, both are very defensive of the ILCA.
  • Both have an unusual blend of UK/US English usage. (Tillerman moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s)
  • Both use satire in a similar way.

 

I'll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions as to whether or not they are the same person. I can't say for sure whether or not Wess and Tiller Man posts are made by the same person, only that there are a lot of 'coincidences'.

 

Here's Tiller Man's only rebuttal so far: "Damn. I guess the fact that we both know how to post videos was a dead giveaway?" The implication is that I made the statement that I think they are the same person because they both know how to post videos. Sheesh. This statement by Tiller Man is untrue. (And Tiller Man, I am underwhelmed).

 

I note that June 2016 is a special date for both Tiller Man and Wess - it is both their 10th anniversary of signing up to Sailing Anarchy.

 

To the many viewers of this thread, who are genuinely interested in Kirby's legal action, or developments concerning Laser Performance's blatant and 'contested' breaches of contract - I apologize for feeding the trolls.

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OMG!

 

Dude, you have some really interesting perspectives.

 

Your powers of deductive reasoning are amazing and I can now see why you support the great grey hair.

 

With folks like you on his side he will surely drive the class into the ground and Torches will dot the land as far as the eye can see (at yacht clubs anyway).

 

 

Are you guys switching sides just to see who is still paying attention?

There are sides?

 

I don't take sides in things like this. It's just a commercial argument between two crazy old rich coots in the US and one crazy very rich old family in New Zealand as to who gets to control the manufacture of our toys and who gets to gather a few more dollars from each of us when we buy one of those toys. I think they are all more or less equally to blame. A plague on all their houses.

 

This dispute exposes some of the worst features of western greed and capitalism. The sooner the Chinese steal the secrets of how to make the Laser and start shipping well made cheap red Lasers to the whole world, the better off we all will be.

Ha! Tiller Man (Like IPLore who he claims to be a fan of) claims he doesn't take sides, then posts his slanted version of what's going on.

 

In TillerMan's "not taking sides" he omits that the ILCA is a party to the legal action, or how disgusted he is that Kirby has sued the ILCA. I'm guessing, based on what TillerMan has written previously that he is now very satisfied with all of the actions of the ILCA. If so, it's difficult to see around the idea that he, like the ILCA, is in support of Laser Performance.

 

It's almost as if in Tiller Man's mind, there is no dispute between Kirby and the ILCA.

 

This is a bit like his claims that his blog Proper Course has positive posts about the Laser. While it's true that Proper Course does post positive stuff about the Laser, over the last year Proper Course has contained a lot of negative stuff about the Laser, and far far far more positive stuff for the RS Aero, which Tiller Man is doing an outstanding job of promoting.

 

Note that I drew everyone's attention to the coincidences between Wess and Tiller Man. Here's what I wrote again:

 

 

I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

(Snipped)

 

But back to the post that Tiller Man wrote above. When reading it, I had the feeling that I had read very similar things before, except that Wess had written them. Wess is also a fan of IPLore, and admits liking to poke fun at people.

 

I thought that was quite a coincidence, so I decided to look for more 'coincidences'. After a quick look, here's what I found:

  • Both Wess and Tiller Man joined SA in June 2006 (Tiller man was first)
  • Wess posts lots of videos to this forum, whereas Tiller Man posts videos in his blog Proper Course. What I found interesting is that both use videos to make points in a similar, almost identical way, both have a remarkably similar taste in videos posted - with a definite UK bias.
  • Both think it's terrible that Kirby sued the ILCA, both are very defensive of the ILCA.
  • Both have an unusual blend of UK/US English usage. (Tillerman moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s)
  • Both use satire in a similar way.

I'll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions as to whether or not they are the same person. I can't say for sure whether or not Wess and Tiller Man posts are made by the same person, only that there are a lot of 'coincidences'.

 

Here's Tiller Man's only rebuttal so far: "Damn. I guess the fact that we both know how to post videos was a dead giveaway?" The implication is that I made the statement that I think they are the same person because they both know how to post videos. Sheesh. This statement by Tiller Man is untrue. (And Tiller Man, I am underwhelmed).

 

I note that June 2016 is a special date for both Tiller Man and Wess - it is both their 10th anniversary of signing up to Sailing Anarchy.

 

To the many viewers of this thread, who are genuinely interested in Kirby's legal action, or developments concerning Laser Performance's blatant and 'contested' breaches of contract - I apologize for feeding the trolls.

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I find Gouvernaik's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

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I find Gouvernaik's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

 

 

 

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Actually I am the Walrus. Or wait, maybe I am the eggman.

 

 

If you play it backwards at 1:26 when the cops show up looking for counterfeit boats I am told you can hear it say "ILCA rules the waves"

 

Goo goo g' joob

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I find Gouvernaik's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

 

Wait, wait, wait... damn; I just finally got the full joke here. I noted the Gouv part and missed the rest.

 

That is good Tillerman. Very good. Hit me in the middle of a meeting this morning and I started laughing like a loon. Can't believe I missed that.

 

WWW (its not just for internet addresses anymore).

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The way this thread is going I hope the case is never resolved. Suit, countersuit, delays... take it to the Supreme Court baby!

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That's strange...

 

 

 

 


 

I find Judith to be hotter than Britney and smarter too. And I'll be damned if she didn't get them off...


 

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Are you guys switching sides just to see who is still paying attention?

There are sides?

 

I don't take sides in things like this. It's just a commercial argument between two crazy old rich coots in the US and one crazy very rich old family in New Zealand as to who gets to control the manufacture of our toys and who gets to gather a few more dollars from each of us when we buy one of those toys. I think they are all more or less equally to blame. A plague on all their houses.

 

This dispute exposes some of the worst features of western greed and capitalism. The sooner the Chinese steal the secrets of how to make the Laser and start shipping well made cheap red Lasers to the whole world, the better off we all will be.

 

 

Ha! Tiller Man (Like IPLore who he claims to be a fan of) claims he doesn't take sides, then posts his slanted version of what's going on.

 

In TillerMan's "not taking sides" he omits that the ILCA is a party to the legal action, or how disgusted he is that Kirby has sued the ILCA. I'm guessing, based on what TillerMan has written previously that he is now very satisfied with all of the actions of the ILCA. If so, it's difficult to see around the idea that he, like the ILCA, is in support of Laser Performance.

 

It's almost as if in Tiller Man's mind, there is no dispute between Kirby and the ILCA.

 

This is a bit like his claims that his blog Proper Course has positive posts about the Laser. While it's true that Proper Course does post positive stuff about the Laser, over the last year Proper Course has contained a lot of negative stuff about the Laser, and far far far more positive stuff for the RS Aero, which Tiller Man is doing an outstanding job of promoting.

 

Note that I drew everyone's attention to the coincidences between Wess and Tiller Man. Here's what I wrote again:

 

 

 

I find IPLore's posts some of the most reasonable and informative on this thread.

(Snipped)

 

But back to the post that Tiller Man wrote above. When reading it, I had the feeling that I had read very similar things before, except that Wess had written them. Wess is also a fan of IPLore, and admits liking to poke fun at people.

 

I thought that was quite a coincidence, so I decided to look for more 'coincidences'. After a quick look, here's what I found:

  • Both Wess and Tiller Man joined SA in June 2006 (Tiller man was first)
  • Wess posts lots of videos to this forum, whereas Tiller Man posts videos in his blog Proper Course. What I found interesting is that both use videos to make points in a similar, almost identical way, both have a remarkably similar taste in videos posted - with a definite UK bias.
  • Both think it's terrible that Kirby sued the ILCA, both are very defensive of the ILCA.
  • Both have an unusual blend of UK/US English usage. (Tillerman moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s)
  • Both use satire in a similar way.

 

I'll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions as to whether or not they are the same person. I can't say for sure whether or not Wess and Tiller Man posts are made by the same person, only that there are a lot of 'coincidences'.

 

Here's Tiller Man's only rebuttal so far: "Damn. I guess the fact that we both know how to post videos was a dead giveaway?" The implication is that I made the statement that I think they are the same person because they both know how to post videos. Sheesh. This statement by Tiller Man is untrue. (And Tiller Man, I am underwhelmed).

 

I note that June 2016 is a special date for both Tiller Man and Wess - it is both their 10th anniversary of signing up to Sailing Anarchy.

 

To the many viewers of this thread, who are genuinely interested in Kirby's legal action, or developments concerning Laser Performance's blatant and 'contested' breaches of contract - I apologize for feeding the trolls.

 

I don't suppose it really matters whether or not Tiller Man and Wess are the same person, or that they share the above 'coincidences', they will still post in the same way. (Until I looked, I didn't realise the animosity Tiller Man had against Kirby, for suing 'his' class association, if we forget about his deep involvement in the Aero for a moment - as he seems to want us to do).

 

What is relevant to the legal action is whether or not there will be anything left of Laser Performance in the US for Kirby to sue, since Laser Performance's activities appeared to have been moved offshore, with the latest move appears to be the relocation of the North American Laser moulds to Shanghai, China. Bigger than this case, is what the ILCA intends - they are still being tight lipped.

 

Hoping that the court hears this case soon!

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I read somewhere that someone overheard in the boat park at the Laser Masters Worlds in Mexico this week a rumor that Laser hulls and decks are now being made in China and shipped to the UK for final assembly (and attachment of the "Made in UK" sticker.)

Congratulations to Gantt for breaking the news first that the Laser molds were shipped to China.

 

And thanks to Gantt for reminding readers of this thread (yet again) that I also enjoy sailing an RS Aero as well as a Laser. All good publicity!

 

But I do think it's a stretch to describe my feelings to Bruce Kirby as "animosity." I have met Bruce, and early in this dispute he reached out to me on email to explain his views. In the Laser class vote on the Fundamental Rule change I voted not to change the rule (i.e. I voted the way Bruce wanted us to vote.) But I must admit Bruce lost my support when he decided to sue the Laser class claiming "tortuous interference." I am a member of the class. It almost felt like a man I have always admired is suing me personally. That was a step too far for me. Very sad.

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So we potentially have a situation where someone engaged in a protracted legal fight is moving assets offshore, beyond the reach of the court. That would seem a very risky legal strategy to me, turning a civil matter into possibly a criminal one.

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In other news it was not reported today that the Navy's secret ring knocker's "black N" society was in cahoots with renegade sailing association to build boats on a disputed south china sea island. It was recently discovered that certain small sailboats of questionable heritage can not be detected on radar and when properly sailed can be extremely fast. "Faster than a 49er" said an unkempt scraggly looking dude speaking with a Texas drawl while wearing a gold sweater with a large black N and a record 5 black stars on it.

 

He said his plan was perfect but that the darn Marines the Navy keeps sending him are unhappy with their little boat's weapons and keep demanding arrows to replace their torches. They were also refusing to sign a new contract with the black N society that required them to turn over their first born. "Don't they know I am Spartacus" and they have to have a contract with me because I said so he he didn't say.

 

There was also some crazy laughing loon and an old grey hair mumbling "thank god its friday" at the base but the reporter did not report that they didn't know what to make of them.

 

Secretary of Defense Ashton B Carter will address the Naval Academy Class of 2016 at their graduation May 27 and is not expected to say more on this topic while some blue angels flown by pink easter bunnies who are not allowed to say "canntt" soar overhead. The event is not open to the public unless you are a member of the renegade sailing class and voted "yes" to a rule change designed to have the blue angels flown by something other than pink easter bunnies who are not allowed to say "canntt" and carbon upper section spars used on the small sailboats.

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In other news it was not reported today that the Navy's secret ring knocker's "black N" society was in cahoots with renegade sailing association to build boats on a disputed south china sea island. It was recently discovered that certain small sailboats of questionable heritage can not be detected on radar and when properly sailed can be extremely fast. "Faster than a 49er" said an unkempt scraggly looking dude speaking with a Texas drawl while wearing a gold sweater with a large black N and a record 5 black stars on it.

 

He said his plan was perfect but that the darn Marines the Navy keeps sending him are unhappy with their little boat's weapons and keep demanding arrows to replace their torches. They were also refusing to sign a new contract with the black N society that required them to turn over their first born. "Don't they know I am Spartacus" and they have to have a contract with me because I said so he he didn't say.

 

There was also some crazy laughing loon and an old grey hair mumbling "thank god its friday" at the base but the reporter did not report that they didn't know what to make of them.

 

Secretary of Defense Ashton B Carter will address the Naval Academy Class of 2016 at their graduation May 27 and is not expected to say more on this topic while some blue angels flown by pink easter bunnies who are not allowed to say "canntt" soar overhead. The event is not open to the public unless you are a member of the renegade sailing class and voted "yes" to a rule change designed to have the blue angels flown by something other than pink easter bunnies who are not allowed to say "canntt" and carbon upper section spars used on the small sailboats.

 

OMG, I feel the EXACT same way. I mean I could have written that. :D

Oh wait...

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What is relevant to the legal action is whether or not there will be anything left of Laser Performance in the US for Kirby to sue, since Laser Performance's activities appeared to have been moved offshore, with the latest move appears to be the relocation of the North American Laser moulds to Shanghai, China.

 

 

Good point Gantt!

 

So Kirby started all this mess when he tried to sell an asset offshore - the sale of his alleged Laser design rights to the Spencer family of New Zealand.

 

And Rastegar is going to end it by moving all of Laser Performance's US activities offshore?

 

Kind of ironic!

 

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IPLore is someone who states again and again (in error) that Global sailing is PSA's parent -

 

Please clarify for me. Does the Spencer family own both Global Sailing and PSA? If so, then the "error" that Global Sailing is PSA's parent is splitting hairs.

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Gannt,

 

I also joined Sailing Anarchy in 2006, shortly after Wes and Tiller.

I consider myself a friend of Bruce Kirby but I also regret that he included the Laser Class and ISAF in his law suit.

I have an unusual blend of the Queen's English and colonial English and I moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s.

I understand satire in a different way than you.

I am a sailor, pay my class dues and only vote in classes where I am a paid up member

I read Tiller's blog, sail Lasers and watch videos.

 

Does this make me Tiller or Wess?

 

I know for sure that I am not Gouvernail..........but do you?

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Really it started when Laser Performance was sold out of the sailing world...

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Gannt,

 

I also joined Sailing Anarchy in 2006, shortly after Mambo Kings and Gouvernail.

I consider myself a friend of Bruce Kirby but I also regurgitate Tillerman's whining he included the Laser Class and IYRU in his law suit.

I have an unusual blend of the Queen's English and colonial English and I switched from the UK to the North Sails in the 1980s.

I understand satire in a different way than a female sheep.

I am a smoker, toker, and a midnight joker, pay my class dues and only vote in classes where I am a paid up member

I read Tiller's blog, sail Lasers and watch videos.

 

Does this make me Tiller or Goivernail ????

I know for sure that I am not Mambo King..........but do you?

 

The Easter Laser Regatta is coming up soon. I have hosted the event every year since 1984 and do my very very best to make it fun, well run, very competitive, and most of all, a holiday event you can count on as a place to go see lots of your friends. It started as something for singlehanded sailors to do if they had no family commitments. Thirty odd years later we have some families of three generations, who think of the event as THEIR Family Easter celebration. visit the website and come play

 

 

 

Viper 640So Easy, even Timbo can do it. Now is the Winter of my discontent: December 12-13 2015: Sarasota Winter Series #1January 9-10 2016: Sarasota Winter Series #2February 6-7 2016: Sarasota Winter Series #3March 6-7 2016: Winter Cup MiamiMarch 11-15 2016: Pan American Championships Miami<p>April 15-17 2016: Charleston Race Week

 

The plot thickens!

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But I do think it's a stretch to describe my feelings to Bruce Kirby as "animosity." I have met Bruce, and early in this dispute he reached out to me on email to explain his views. In the Laser class vote on the Fundamental Rule change I voted not to change the rule (i.e. I voted the way Bruce wanted us to vote.) But I must admit Bruce lost my support when he decided to sue the Laser class claiming "tortuous interference." I am a member of the class. It almost felt like a man I have always admired is suing me personally. That was a step too far for me. Very sad.

This makes your position even harder for me to understand. Can't you see that the person you supported got royally shafted by the association you are a member of? The whole way the vote was handled was a slap in the face for BK. The association absolutely distorted the facts and used scare tactics to get the vote through. Some of what the ILCA told members was simply wrong and I believe they did so in order to sway the vote. The biggest of bit of misinformation was to tell members that it was important to vote as soon as possible, implying that voting quickly made a difference. This was done so that they got as many votes as possible before BK had the chance to put his case and based on comments on numerous forums, this tactic worked. There are enough people who have come forward and said that they voted early because of the suggestion that it would help the class, and then couldn't get their vote back once BK got his story out there. Based on stories about how votes almost dried up after BK told his side of the story, i believe that without the "vote early" demand, or if BK had got his story out earlier, the vote would never have been passed.

 

I would then ask you what BK was supposed to do? Like others, he felt shafted by the ILCA board. Is he meant to just roll over and accept that they were screwing him? You voted against changing the rule, so you understood the argument. If you had voted for changing the rule before BK got his story out, how would you have felt? You should also feel outraged at the way the class won the vote, against your wishes. If it had been a fair democratic process, I would accept your view that it is like BK suing you, but as it was not a fair process, surely it is BK standing up for your rights as well.

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IPLore is someone who states again and again (in error) that Global sailing is PSA's parent -

 

Please clarify for me. Does the Spencer family own both Global Sailing and PSA? If so, then the "error" that Global Sailing is PSA's parent is splitting hairs.

 

SM123, it's a pretty good troll don't you think? If anyone takes the bait, like I have previously, then the troll response is splitting hairs, as has been said previously. Nobody is saying that Quarter Moon is the Parent of Laser Performance, yet in that regard they have the same relationship as Global Sailing and PSA as in they are separate companies. Global Sailing does not own PSA nor is their parent - and for the record - PSA is not the parent of Global Sailing. Understand when you read the words "the parent of PSA, Global sailing..." you are reading the words of a troll.

 

As for the Spencers, they have been involved with the Laser Class since the 1970s - and have been very stable influence down under. The result is that New Zealand and Australia have a relatively strong Laser following and continue to do well at international regattas.

 

 

I also joined Sailing Anarchy in 2006, shortly after Wes and Tiller.

I consider myself a friend of Bruce Kirby but I also regret that he included the Laser Class and ISAF in his law suit.

I have an unusual blend of the Queen's English and colonial English and I moved from the UK to the US in the 1980s.

I understand satire in a different way than you.

I am a sailor, pay my class dues and only vote in classes where I am a paid up member

I read Tiller's blog, sail Lasers and watch videos.

 

Does this make me Tiller or Wess?

I hear what you are saying - let's take a look at that. Yes you do have a blend of UK/US English, though it's different to Wess and Tiller Man's. Yes you did register in 2006 - months later in 2006 - Wess was registered just 24 days after Tiller Man. You don't post videos, let alone the same genre. While you may enjoy satire, in looking at your posts I have struggled to find it - whereas it's hard to avoid these same 'coincidences' in the posts of TillerMan and Wess. Using the same criteria, it's far far far more likely that that same person writes the post of Tiller Man Wess than your posts Mambo Kings. Look - as I said, it really doesn't matter if the posts of Tiller Man and Wess are written by the same person. They will continue posting.

 

 

But I do think it's a stretch to describe my feelings to Bruce Kirby as "animosity." I have met Bruce, and early in this dispute he reached out to me on email to explain his views. In the Laser class vote on the Fundamental Rule change I voted not to change the rule (i.e. I voted the way Bruce wanted us to vote.) But I must admit Bruce lost my support when he decided to sue the Laser class claiming "tortuous interference." I am a member of the class. It almost felt like a man I have always admired is suing me personally. That was a step too far for me. Very sad.

 

Perhaps animosity is too strong a word, though even in your explanation above you admit to taking it personally. Perhaps 'resentment' is more apt.

 

I can't get my head around what's wrong with Bruce Kirby selling BKI - his rationale was sound - he wanted to ensure that the system he created for the Laser endured in perpetuity. The rationale you seem to be putting forward is that it's OK for one party of the commercial contract to sell their rights, but not BKI? Can't really follow that logic.

 

The courts have been satisfied that there is a case to be heard against the ILCA. Yes, sometimes the finer points of what's legal and not is hard to prove - though for all of us mad keen Laser Sailors - we know too well the actions of the ILCA - yes they changed the rule which interfered with the termination of Laser Performance. Yes they issued Plaques - these are established facts. Kirby felt wronged by these actions of the ILCA - and it's my belief that he was right to feel that way. So Tiller Man feels somehow personally wronged by Kirby suing the ILCA? For me, also a long time Laser sailor, and a former member of the ILCA - when presented with the same information, I obviously don't share that.

 

I also feel resentment to the words of Jeff Martin of describing the builder's contracts as 'historic' in 2011 when proposing the rule change. (Also signed by then President Heini Wellmann). Remember that Jeff Martin signed the agreement now referred to as the ISAF agreement. Remember that the builders, the ILCA and Kirby got together in 2005 to discuss several things - including the builder's manual. For Jeff Martin to say in 2011 that the contracts were "historic" and that he wasn't aware of the contracts or how the system worked is very difficult to believe. And now Mr Martin has a 'special' seat on the World Council created just for him.

 

As a former member of the ILCA, the above actions of the ILCA caused me to not renew my membership.

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The sun hits his eyes beaming through a crack in the ceiling. How long have I been sitting here??? Getting to his feet he realizes that the multiple shandys before starting that last repair job might not have been the best idea. The smell of resin is strong in the air. I dreamed all that laser legal bullshit??? "That's nuts!", he exclaimed as he walked out into the fresh air. Hey... nice breeze! He grabs his sailing gloves off the nearby table and shuffles off to the lake. Only to realize that the lake is all dried up and it wasn't a dream after all.

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What I do know.

 

Spencers, Rastergar and Kirby are fighting about control of global markets and who gets the money that Laser sailors pay for their boats.

 

The only people standing up for the interests of Laser sailors in this mess are the International Laser Class.

 

The leaders of the class have had some tough calls to make as to how best to protect our interests in this commercial/legal battle. All in all what they did do has worked out well for us.

 

You can still buy a new Laser if you want to. The Lasers are still in the Olympics. We are still holding world championships.

 

Remember at one time Kirby/PSA and LP were planning to set up rival classes. Three Laser classes? What a mess that would have been.

 

People can debate whether or not they feel the leaders of the class made the right decisions.

 

But at the end of the day, I believe that Tracy Usher and Andy Roy and the other class leaders deserve our respect and support, because they are the ONLY ones fighting for our interests.

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Tiller Man

 

You are rather short sighted. This is very much the "long game". The only way you can judge whether the association has done the right thing is a few years after the court case has been settled. If LPE wins, they will no longer need the support of the association and ISAF, so will they go back to their behavior before the vote, where they had removed all financial support from the class, stopped their advertising in the class magazine (which is what kept it viable) and were threatening to no longer provide charter boats etc. for the worlds. We know Rastegar has publicly said that the racing sailors are PITA which he would be happy if he didn't have to service. Maybe the new spirit of co-operation between the class and LPE will continue, but I wouldn't bet the class on that. on the other hand, if BK wins, there is a fair chance that the ILCA will be finished. In the vent of a BK win, the association needs to hope that BK allows LPE to continue production, but I think there is a good chance they won't.

 

In short, the association might be happy with things as they are today, but it is far too early to say they did the right thing. My belief is that the best thing that could happen for the class is for there to be an out of court settlement. In that event, I think the class will might look OK, although i wouldn't be surprised to see the class agree to reinstate the old rule in order to facilitate that settlement. I also think that there would be a good chance that with the right people in charge of the association, BK would, as part of a settlement, give up more some worthwhile control so the class couldn't be held to hostage again.

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Damn, this is such a boring legal fight.

 

Went sailing Tuesday and Thursday on a Laser/Torch, both sporting a square/fat/power/whatever. Fun. I hate going slow and the Bay this spring has had a bad case of the slows. More sail area has helps. But the more I sail the Intensity big sail, the more curious I become about the versions from Forward-Sailing, Nautisail, and the sail from the mid 00's, Olsen or something like that. Really what I want is a M14, but no where to launch that in the upper Bay, using the big sail lets me pretend to be a OD but go play in a sail more suited for my size.

 

This is a really slow legal fight.

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What I do know.

 

Spencers, Rastergar and Kirby are fighting about control of global markets and who gets the money that Laser sailors pay for their boats.

 

The only people standing up for the interests of Laser sailors in this mess are the International Laser Class.

 

The leaders of the class have had some tough calls to make as to how best to protect our interests in this commercial/legal battle. All in all what they did do has worked out well for us.

 

You can still buy a new Laser if you want to. The Lasers are still in the Olympics. We are still holding world championships.

 

Remember at one time Kirby/PSA and LP were planning to set up rival classes. Three Laser classes? What a mess that would have been.

 

People can debate whether or not they feel the leaders of the class made the right decisions.

 

But at the end of the day, I believe that Tracy Usher and Andy Roy and the other class leaders deserve our respect and support, because they are the ONLY ones fighting for our interests.

 

Indeed Tiller Man, what do you know? Possibly a lot more than you choose to tell us!

 

Tiller Man's most recent post hen picks the facts and ignores the issues that the ILCA currently face.

 

Tiller Man is right, in that the fate of the ILCA is in the hands of Andy, Tracy and "other class leaders", glossing over the relevant yet again. These "other class leaders" in respect of the ILCA World Council include the hands of Bill Crane, Chris Caldecoat and Jeff Martin - parties that represent entities other than the ILCA - some represent the very commercial interests that Tiller Man is concerned about. (Jeff Martin has served with ISAF and may or may not have other interests and connections. Exactly why did Jeff Martin call the current contracts "historical"???) Andy has stated on this forum and said that Bill Crane is a great guy, and "gets it" - hardly a neutral thing to say, considering Crane's involvement and actions in the legal action. The membership of the ILCA World Council seem to be a great recipe for dysfunctionality! What Tiller Man is saying is naive, when the hands of the ILCA themselves have such obvious conflicts.

 

Exactly what happens at World Council meeting? Is it possible that the meetings are still hugely influenced by Jeff Martin with his 'special' position? Also, does Bill Crane still represent a builder that actually builds Lasers?

 

The ILCA World Council has never released proper minutes - at least I've never seen any and nor have other members who I speak to - so exactly how do members know they are being served well by the World Council? How do members know that Tracy isn't frustrated from doing what he wants to do? (I can think of at least two public instances when Tracy has been frustrated.) Some small changes have been made, one being the move of the offices from the UK to the US, away from the tight grasp of Jeff Martin.

 

The ILCA World Council contains parties that are directly involved with the Legal Action - so how is the ILCA meant to address issues concerning the Legal Action at the World Council level? The World Council is more conflicted than neutral.

 

Tiller Man has it right when he says the ILCA is meant to safeguard the future of the Laser class. How is the lack of communication from the World Council dating back to 2011 and before, serve it's members? How does the failure to release properly kept minutes serve it's members? Exactly how does the appointment of a new builder in Shanghai (if that's what happening) with so many unresolved issues safeguard the future of the class?

 

Tiller Man is in-step with the official 'we are safe hands' line that the ILCA rolled out a few years back - but out of step with reality.

 

The idea that Rastegar, Kirby and PSA are fighting for a global market is out of date. Kirby has publicly said that he has put the plans for the Torch on hold while waiting for the outcome of the court case. PSA are not active in building Lasers outside their contracted territory (If there was evidence then LP would have presented it as part of their counterclaim). Global Sailing appear not to be active at all. The only party who is active is Farzad Rastegar and Bill Crane / Laser Performance, who have stopped the North American Laser production and relocated the North American Laser moulds to Shanghai. Rastegar / Crane / Laser Performance appear intent to sell Lasers in every market except PSA's - actions with global aspirations very similar to what they accused PSA of doing in their counterclaim.

 

At the the heart of the "mess" is a simple contractual dispute. And the ILCA have acted in a way that enabled Laser Performance to act outside it's contracted responsibilities. The best reason put forward is 'because' Kirby 'never should have' sold his contracted rights which is Laser Performance's position - a sale that as it turned out was never completed. So who in the ILCA made the determination that Kirby 'shouldn't' sell his rights to Global Sailing - or in so doing that it somehow invalidated the (small) royalties? (Royalties which are about 2% of the wholesale cost of a hull). Who made the determination that it was a legitimate dispute? Jeff Martin?

 

Should Laser sailors should simply go sailing and not bother themselves with the fate of the class, the fate of the ILCA? Maybe Laser sailors can continue sailing and consider the fate of their class at the same time. Kind of like walking and chewing gum at the same time - it can be done!

 

Maybe Laser sailors want an ILCA that is more democratic and transparent in it's actions. One that releases it World Council minutes - a normal practice for most organisations.

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Remember at one time Kirby/PSA and LP were planning to set up rival classes. Three Laser classes? What a mess that would have been.

 

Say what you want about multiple class organizations. I've been the Kirby Torch class champ for three years straight in the Laser, Radlal, and 4.7. And I don't even own a 4.7 rig.

 

Note I did not mention Laser Performance United. I'll leave that you and Wess to split among yourselves as y'all see fit.

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But I do think it's a stretch to describe my feelings to Bruce Kirby as "animosity." I have met Bruce, and early in this dispute he reached out to me on email to explain his views. In the Laser class vote on the Fundamental Rule change I voted not to change the rule (i.e. I voted the way Bruce wanted us to vote.) But I must admit Bruce lost my support when he decided to sue the Laser class claiming "tortuous interference." I am a member of the class. It almost felt like a man I have always admired is suing me personally. That was a step too far for me. Very sad.

This makes your position even harder for me to understand. Can't you see that the person you supported got royally shafted by the association you are a member of? The whole way the vote was handled was a slap in the face for BK. The association absolutely distorted the facts and used scare tactics to get the vote through. Some of what the ILCA told members was simply wrong and I believe they did so in order to sway the vote. The biggest of bit of misinformation was to tell members that it was important to vote as soon as possible, implying that voting quickly made a difference. This was done so that they got as many votes as possible before BK had the chance to put his case and based on comments on numerous forums, this tactic worked. There are enough people who have come forward and said that they voted early because of the suggestion that it would help the class, and then couldn't get their vote back once BK got his story out there. Based on stories about how votes almost dried up after BK told his side of the story, i believe that without the "vote early" demand, or if BK had got his story out earlier, the vote would never have been passed.

 

I would then ask you what BK was supposed to do? Like others, he felt shafted by the ILCA board. Is he meant to just roll over and accept that they were screwing him? You voted against changing the rule, so you understood the argument. If you had voted for changing the rule before BK got his story out, how would you have felt? You should also feel outraged at the way the class won the vote, against your wishes. If it had been a fair democratic process, I would accept your view that it is like BK suing you, but as it was not a fair process, surely it is BK standing up for your rights as well.

 

SimonN - Like Gannt you are so smart and insightful, and like Gannt you have worked so hard to help our class. That is especially kind after your own class rejected the path you promoted to save the As. Might you be so kind as to help me understand one small thing? You note what a problem the class vote was and clearly everyone would agree without that LP needs a contract with BK and we would not in the sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in now with counterfeit boats from China and the police shutting down our regattas I am told.

 

All agree that BK should have challenged the vote in court and certainly he appears to have sued or threatened to sue anyone even remotely unrelated such as sailors on another forum on any and every front he could.

 

* So why didn't he attack the vote in court?

 

Thank you in advance for your words of wisdom.

 

TM

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* So why didn't he attack the vote in court?

 

 

Because if misdirecting and misinforming the electorate to manipulate the vote to get the result the executive wants were illegal there wouldn't be a politician out of gaol in the western world. Immoral != illegal.

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For politics for sure but not so much for a contract dispute. If it was true that the vote was tampered with there is a claim for sure. Go back to law school. Do not pass go. Do not collect $100. :-)

 

Gantt (and I ain't never poked no steer)

 

 

 

 

* So why didn't he attack the vote in court?

 

Because if misdirecting and misinforming the electorate to manipulate the vote to get the result the executive wants were illegal there wouldn't be a politician out of gaol in the western world. Immoral != illegal.

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Why does Gantt have so much animosity for the Laser class and the Laser sailors who are members of the Laser class?

 

Why did Gantt vote in the fundamental rule ballot even though he was not a member of the Laser class at the time?

 

Why does Gantt ask Tillerman the same old questions over and over again when he knows what the answers will be?

 

Will Gantt rejoin the Laser class and run for the office and use his brilliant insights and powerful persuasive skills to lead the World Council to implant the solutions he is advocating?

 

W

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Why does Gantt have so much animosity for the Laser class and the Laser sailors who are members of the Laser class?

 

Why did Gantt vote in the fundamental rule ballot even though he was not a member of the Laser class at the time?

 

Why does Gantt ask Tillerman the same old questions over and over again when he knows what the answers will be?

 

Will Gantt rejoin the Laser class and run for the office and use his brilliant insights and powerful persuasive skills to lead the World Council to implant the solutions he is advocating?

Thank you Tiller Man for posting questions about me.

 

In the same way it doesn't matter whether or not the posts of Tiller Man and Wess are made by the same person, this forum is not about me, or Tillerman, or Wess. It's about Kirby's legal action.

 

Let me for a moment answer Tillerman's question on the waning possibility he is not trolling.

 

I do not hold animosity towards Laser sailors or the ILCA per se, anyone who looks at my posts can see that. I will continue to sail Lasers every chance I get. What drives me is that I care about the welfare of my sport which not only includes the ILCA and it's members, but all Laser sailors (including those what are no ILCA members). I raised the issue of me voting online when I hadn't renewed my ILCA membership to question the validity of the votes counted. The ILCA stated that they had appointed auditors that were satisfied the votes were legitimate. (I'd still like to know if that means my vote was counted or not). The last question I asked of Tiller Man was in direct response to his post, most of my questions are not directed to him. I'm not running for ILCA office, and have not intention at this time to run for office, though speaking about elections - I'd love the ILCA members to be able to directly vote for representatives on the World Council - it would be far more democratic than the current system.

 

For the record, here's the last post I wrote, in which I admit I asked a lot of questions:

 

 

What I do know.

 

Spencers, Rastergar and Kirby are fighting about control of global markets and who gets the money that Laser sailors pay for their boats.

 

The only people standing up for the interests of Laser sailors in this mess are the International Laser Class.

 

The leaders of the class have had some tough calls to make as to how best to protect our interests in this commercial/legal battle. All in all what they did do has worked out well for us.

 

You can still buy a new Laser if you want to. The Lasers are still in the Olympics. We are still holding world championships.

 

Remember at one time Kirby/PSA and LP were planning to set up rival classes. Three Laser classes? What a mess that would have been.

 

People can debate whether or not they feel the leaders of the class made the right decisions.

 

But at the end of the day, I believe that Tracy Usher and Andy Roy and the other class leaders deserve our respect and support, because they are the ONLY ones fighting for our interests.

Indeed Tiller Man, what do you know? Possibly a lot more than you choose to tell us!

 

Tiller Man's most recent post hen picks the facts and ignores the issues that the ILCA currently face.

 

Tiller Man is right, in that the fate of the ILCA is in the hands of Andy, Tracy and "other class leaders", glossing over the relevant yet again. These "other class leaders" in respect of the ILCA World Council include the hands of Bill Crane, Chris Caldecoat and Jeff Martin - parties that represent entities other than the ILCA - some represent the very commercial interests that Tiller Man is concerned about. (Jeff Martin has served with ISAF and may or may not have other interests and connections. Exactly why did Jeff Martin call the current contracts "historical"???) Andy has stated on this forum and said that Bill Crane is a great guy, and "gets it" - hardly a neutral thing to say, considering Crane's involvement and actions in the legal action. The membership of the ILCA World Council seem to be a great recipe for dysfunctionality! What Tiller Man is saying is naive, when the hands of the ILCA themselves have such obvious conflicts.

 

Exactly what happens at World Council meeting? Is it possible that the meetings are still hugely influenced by Jeff Martin with his 'special' position? Also, does Bill Crane still represent a builder that actually builds Lasers?

 

The ILCA World Council has never released proper minutes - at least I've never seen any and nor have other members who I speak to - so exactly how do members know they are being served well by the World Council? How do members know that Tracy isn't frustrated from doing what he wants to do? (I can think of at least two public instances when Tracy has been frustrated.) Some small changes have been made, one being the move of the offices from the UK to the US, away from the tight grasp of Jeff Martin.

 

The ILCA World Council contains parties that are directly involved with the Legal Action - so how is the ILCA meant to address issues concerning the Legal Action at the World Council level? The World Council is more conflicted than neutral.

 

Tiller Man has it right when he says the ILCA is meant to safeguard the future of the Laser class. How is the lack of communication from the World Council dating back to 2011 and before, serve it's members? How does the failure to release properly kept minutes serve it's members? Exactly how does the appointment of a new builder in Shanghai (if that's what happening) with so many unresolved issues safeguard the future of the class?

 

Tiller Man is in-step with the official 'we are safe hands' line that the ILCA rolled out a few years back - but out of step with reality.

 

The idea that Rastegar, Kirby and PSA are fighting for a global market is out of date. Kirby has publicly said that he has put the plans for the Torch on hold while waiting for the outcome of the court case. PSA are not active in building Lasers outside their contracted territory (If there was evidence then LP would have presented it as part of their counterclaim). Global Sailing appear not to be active at all. The only party who is active is Farzad Rastegar and Bill Crane / Laser Performance, who have stopped the North American Laser production and relocated the North American Laser moulds to Shanghai. Rastegar / Crane / Laser Performance appear intent to sell Lasers in every market except PSA's - actions with global aspirations very similar to what they accused PSA of doing in their counterclaim.

 

At the the heart of the "mess" is a simple contractual dispute. And the ILCA have acted in a way that enabled Laser Performance to act outside it's contracted responsibilities. The best reason put forward is 'because' Kirby 'never should have' sold his contracted rights which is Laser Performance's position - a sale that as it turned out was never completed. So who in the ILCA made the determination that Kirby 'shouldn't' sell his rights to Global Sailing - or in so doing that it somehow invalidated the (small) royalties? (Royalties which are about 2% of the wholesale cost of a hull). Who made the determination that it was a legitimate dispute? Jeff Martin?

 

Should Laser sailors should simply go sailing and not bother themselves with the fate of the class, the fate of the ILCA? Maybe Laser sailors can continue sailing and consider the fate of their class at the same time. Kind of like walking and chewing gum at the same time - it can be done!

 

Maybe Laser sailors want an ILCA that is more democratic and transparent in it's actions. One that releases it World Council minutes - a normal practice for most organisations.

 

 

Earlier, Tiller Man encouraged me to restate the questions that the ILCA has not answered, and now delivers criticism against me for asking questions.

 

One question was directed to Tiller Man, and it was the first time I had asked it. (Yes it was rhetorical - so shoot me!) The other questions are genuine questions (I don't have answers to the questions directed to the ILCA), mostly directed at the ILCA and not Tiller Man.

 

With these current and outstanding issues, I am a long way off renewing my ILCA membership - and I'm not the only one.

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Thank you Gantt for clearing all that up.

 

It really is hard for me to understand your arguments but I appreciate your efforts to explain your positions.

 

I am sure we can agree on thing, that we both care passionately about the sport of Laser sailing.

 

W

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In other news it was not reported today that the Navy's secret ring knocker's "black N" society was in cahoots with renegade sailing association to build boats on a disputed south china sea island. It was recently discovered that certain small sailboats of questionable heritage can not be detected on radar and when properly sailed can be extremely fast. "Faster than a 49er" said an unkempt scraggly looking dude speaking with a Texas drawl while wearing a gold sweater with a large black N and a record 5 black stars on it.

 

He said his plan was perfect but that the darn Marines the Navy keeps sending him are unhappy with their little boat's weapons and keep demanding arrows to replace their torches. They were also refusing to sign a new contract with the black N society that required them to turn over their first born. "Don't they know I am Spartacus" and they have to have a contract with me because I said so he he didn't say.

 

There was also some crazy laughing loon and an old grey hair mumbling "thank god its friday" at the base but the reporter did not report that they didn't know what to make of them.

 

Secretary of Defense Ashton B Carter will address the Naval Academy Class of 2016 at their graduation May 27 and is not expected to say more on this topic while some blue angels flown by pink easter bunnies who are not allowed to say "canntt" soar overhead. The event is not open to the public unless you are a member of the renegade sailing class and voted "yes" to a rule change designed to have the blue angels flown by something other than pink easter bunnies who are not allowed to say "canntt" and carbon upper section spars used on the small sailboats.

 

I bring more news from the war front.

 

 

Ash Carter did speak... and speak... and speak... and speak... and speak... as promised. It was as if the the spirit of Gantt had taken over his senses. And the sailors did file in 2 by 2 and took an oath, and maybe Ash really is Gannt for it was not reported that each sailor was asked to pick a Laser or Torch.

 

The blue Angels came and left and while it was impossible to tell up from down - they fly in orientations as absurd as the great grey hairs claims - it was clear that class must have voted smartly for they were not piloted by pink easter bunnies who cant say canntt.

 

 

And then finally three cheers were given and covers were tossed into the air. Even the plebes knew to pick Lasers - not Torches. Heck, apparently USNA does not even offer a course in Torches but they do in Lasers! If you want something as backwards as Torches you have to attend West Point Ash Carter reportedly did not say.

 

 

Oorah!!

 

TM

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Back away from the keyboard.

You ever party with 22 yo marines? I may not be able to stand, walk, talk, see, or type straight for many days.

 

But damn... that Tillerman sure does get around. He is like the king of the road:

 

 

Is Roger Miller a UK artist?

 

Is ISAF still a party to this party?

 

Is Rags?

 

Is the third boxcar of the midnight train?

 

OK, enough... I am going to go sailing now!

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Thank you Gantt for clearing all that up.

 

It really is hard for me to understand your arguments but I appreciate your efforts to explain your positions.

 

I am sure we can agree on thing, that we both care passionately about the sport of Laser sailing.

 

Then we have at least two things in common, as I find it hard to understand your positions as well, particularly against Kirby for taking action against the ILCA.

 

I shall leave thanking you for trying to explain your positions until you give it a proper try.

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Thank you Gantt for clearing all that up.

 

It really is hard for me to understand your arguments but I appreciate your efforts to explain your positions.

 

I am sure we can agree on thing, that we both care passionately about the sport of Laser sailing.

 

Then we have at least two things in common, as I find it hard to understand your positions as well, particularly against Kirby for taking action against the ILCA.

 

I shall leave thanking you for trying to explain your positions until you give it a proper try.

 

So sorry too disappoint but perhaps not all have the capacity to understand. Like that Wes guy...

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Thank you Gantt for clearing all that up.

 

It really is hard for me to understand your arguments but I appreciate your efforts to explain your positions.

 

I am sure we can agree on thing, that we both care passionately about the sport of Laser sailing.

 

Then we have at least two things in common, as I find it hard to understand your positions as well, particularly against Kirby for taking action against the ILCA.

 

I shall leave thanking you for trying to explain your positions until you give it a proper try.

 

 

Gantt you are the man.

 

Thanks so much for the advice to have a "proper" try at explaining why I don't like my class being sued for implementing a class rule change approved by a democratic vote of our members.

 

I have tried to be "proper" in everything I write on this forum, but perhaps not all have the capacity to understand.

 

Like that Tillermann guy.

 

 

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Thank you Gantt for clearing all that up.

 

It really is hard for me to understand your arguments but I appreciate your efforts to explain your positions.

 

I am sure we can agree on thing, that we both care passionately about the sport of Laser sailing.

 

Then we have at least two things in common, as I find it hard to understand your positions as well, particularly against Kirby for taking action against the ILCA.

 

I shall leave thanking you for trying to explain your positions until you give it a proper try.

 

 

Gantt you are the man.

 

Thanks so much for the advice to have a "proper" try at explaining why I don't like my class being sued for implementing a class rule change approved by a democratic vote of our members.

 

I have tried to be "proper" in everything I write on this forum, but perhaps not all have the capacity to understand.

 

Like that Tillermann guy.

 

 

 

Hey hey, now I am really offended. For gosh sakes spell my name right. Tillermann indeed!!

 

Its Tillerman and you can find me at http://propercourse.blogspot.com/

 

And I think Wes needs to read: http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2007/12/ten-reasons-why-sunfish-are-better-than.html

 

In China!

 

But that knucklehead is likely headed off to get on the water again...

 

A horse is a horse, improper course...

 

http://horsesmouth.typepad.com/hm/

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OK, its Memorial Day and this always reminds me of lifting a Laser mast in breeze.

 

 

I'm going to go thank a few friends and family for their service, and hoist a sail myself.

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Gouv -

 

Likely not the thread for serious matters but if that topic is a passion then while there are folks on my end that assist this organization (and I believe you know how to contact me) you might start by reaching out on your end here: http://www.honorflightaustin.org/

 

Regards.

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Oh nooooo. I just wrote a big long thing about Clift my 92 year old friend who is going to the event.

His Ensign is at my shop and we just made it as pretty as I know how. Absolutely better than new.

 

Clift says he never could have been a doctor except for the fact the Navy paid his way through med school

 

He says, "They are going to put us in wheel chairs and give us the red carpet treatment tour of Washington"

 

He is thrilled he gets to go. It is very soon or just happened. His son and I are handling the boat refurbishing.

Clift bought it new fifty years ago.

Clift also plunked down a significant chunk of change to help purchase the land where Austin Yacht Club sits today.

 

I could go on all day about the bunch of old navy doctors who spearheaded the creation of Austin Yacht club as a landed institution as opposed to a bunch of guys who met on the lake

Hope he had a good trip if he was out for the 27-28th. But lets take that off line and please do PM me if he is coming out later in the year on one of the other flights.

 

We now return you to the canntt understand or explain show also featuring the people who don't sail Lasers band.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULjCSK0oOlI

 

Regards,

 

Al (aka Tillerman, aka Bill Crane, aka Wesley, etc...)

 

PS - I just want to get back to fishing with my ip lure.

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Gantt you are the man.

Thanks so much for the advice to have a "proper" try at explaining why I don't like my class being sued for implementing a class rule change approved by a democratic vote of our members.

 

I have tried to be "proper" in everything I write on this forum, but perhaps not all have the capacity to understand.

 

Like that Tillermann guy.

 

I hear you Tiller Man, that you are trying as hard as your abilities permit to explain stuff 'proper'.

 

Tiller Man, you just said that Kirby had sued the ILCA "...for implementing a class rule change approved by a democratic vote of our members".

 

I wasn't aware that was the case. Do you have more details?

 

(In the extremely unlikely case of Tiller Man has it wrong, perhaps the capacity to understand is limited more by one's ability to explain - and to get facts right.)

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Gantt you are the man.

Thanks so much for the advice to have a "proper" try at explaining why I don't like my class being sued for implementing a class rule change approved by a democratic vote of our members.

 

I have tried to be "proper" in everything I write on this forum, but perhaps not all have the capacity to understand.

 

Like that Tillermann guy.

 

I hear you Tiller Man, that you are trying as hard as your abilities permit to explain stuff 'proper'.

 

Tiller Man, you just said that Kirby had sued the ILCA "...for implementing a class rule change approved by a democratic vote of our members".

 

I wasn't aware that was the case. Do you have more details?

 

(In the extremely unlikely case of Tiller Man has it wrong, perhaps the capacity to understand is limited more by one's ability to explain - and to get facts right.)

 

 

Hmmmm... it would seem that Tiller Man has just deleted his original post above.

 

Maybe Tiller Man had it wrong after all.

 

Maybe we'll never find out what Tiller Man actually meant because of our capacity to understand is limited.

 

Maybe some people actually care. (Nah, didn't think so.)

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On another note, the 2016 youth worlds in Oman were cancelled, or rather, relocated to New Zealand (to be sailed Dec 2016).

 

Does anyone know if Lasers were ordered or built for the Oman youth worlds? If yes, what happened to them? (I don't suppose LP produced boats will still be used - because that would mean LP produced boats being used in PSA's area). Anyone know?

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Tiller Man, you just said that Kirby had sued the ILCA "...

 

I wasn't aware that was the case. Do you have more details?

 

.)

Sorry....no more details. If there was such a case (and I'm not saying there is), then the participants in the thread discussing such case would prefer that Gantt remain here and continue to work on his conspiracy theories linking the plot to cancel the Oman youth worlds and build Lasers in China with the shooter behind the grassy knoll.

Gantt will get to the bottom of this....and I suggest that everyone else stay out of his way.

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I want Gantt to get to the bottom of why New Zealand is refusing permission for Radial Sailor Sarah Winther to go to the Olympics after she met the Olympic standard to attend the Olympic Games, but not 'some other standard' imposed by NZ olympic officials.

 

Was this decided by a democratic vote?

 

Did all the bodies involved in this decision publish minutes?

 

Has anyone deleted any posts about this?

 

Is Bill Crane somehow involved? After all one of his relatives sailed in the Laser class at the 2012 Olympics so there must be some connection.

 

Go for it Gantt.

 

Everyone else please stay out of his way.

 

W

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Tiller Man, you just said that Kirby had sued the ILCA "...

 

I wasn't aware that was the case. Do you have more details?

 

.)

Sorry....no more details. If there was such a case (and I'm not saying there is), then the participants in the thread discussing such case would prefer that Gantt remain here and continue to work on his conspiracy theories linking the plot to cancel the Oman youth worlds and build Lasers in China with the shooter behind the grassy knoll.

Gantt will get to the bottom of this....and I suggest that everyone else stay out of his way.

 

 

 

Did Kirby sue the ILCA? Was there ever such a case? If Gantt wasn't aware of the case then I guess I must have dreamed it. Can't we all just forget I ever mentioned it?

 

Anyway, the Oman Worlds, Chinese Lasers, grassy knoll connection is a much more important topic than the Kirby/Spencer/Gantt conspiracy to take over the world market for Lasers.

 

Was Ted Cruz's father really involved?

 

W

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All worth it? I mean, it is a Laser and so on!

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Gantt you are the man.

Thanks so much for the advice to have a "proper" try at explaining why I don't like my class being sued for implementing a class rule change approved by a democratic vote of our members.

 

I have tried to be "proper" in everything I write on this forum, but perhaps not all have the capacity to understand.

 

Like that Tillermann guy.

 

I hear you Tiller Man, that you are trying as hard as your abilities permit to explain stuff 'proper'.

 

Tiller Man, you just said that Kirby had sued the ILCA "...for implementing a class rule change approved by a democratic vote of our members".

 

I wasn't aware that was the case. Do you have more details?

 

(In the extremely unlikely case of Tiller Man has it wrong, perhaps the capacity to understand is limited more by one's ability to explain - and to get facts right.)

 

 

Hmmmm... it would seem that Tiller Man has just deleted his original post above.

 

Maybe Tiller Man had it wrong after all.

 

Maybe we'll never find out what Tiller Man actually meant because of our capacity to understand is limited.

 

Maybe some people actually care. (Nah, didn't think so.)

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On another note, the 2016 youth worlds in Oman were cancelled, or rather, relocated to New Zealand (to be sailed Dec 2016).

 

Does anyone know if Lasers were ordered or built for the Oman youth worlds? If yes, what happened to them? (I don't suppose LP produced boats will still be used - because that would mean LP produced boats being used in PSA's area). Anyone know?

 

 

Gantt,

 

My dear friend, please ignore that Wes chump who keeps posting on my behalf and then deleting those posts. I have complained vehemently to the fine administrators of this establishment and they have reposted the posted, then deleted post. I also apologize profusely for not being more clear and noting for the legal record that an individual's motivation for litigating and actual claims and remedies sought in the actual litigation can be different. Given your frequently and in-depth discussions with the principals of the case I know that you would of course know this but I should have been more clear in my post which became a deleted post but is now a reposted post.

 

That Wes chump also wanted me to post some video that is reportedly not from the class, not summing up their views, but its not a UK based band so I refuse to post it, to unpost it, to repost its unposting to have it reposted.

 

 

Best regards,

 

TM

 

PS - 我亲爱的朋友,不要害怕,因为我们将有猪被取消资格韦斯利

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pick up some of those German built Laser knocks off with the altered transom. ( so different but all parts fit)

They retail for 50% of a Laser in the EU

Seen many in rental schools.

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I want Gantt to get to the bottom of why New Zealand is refusing permission for Radial Sailor Sarah Winther to go to the Olympics after she met the Olympic standard to attend the Olympic Games, but not 'some other standard' imposed by NZ olympic officials.

 

Was this decided by a democratic vote?

 

Did all the bodies involved in this decision publish minutes?

 

Has anyone deleted any posts about this?

 

Is Bill Crane somehow involved? After all one of his relatives sailed in the Laser class at the 2012 Olympics so there must be some connection.

 

Go for it Gantt.

 

Everyone else please stay out of his way.

 

W

 

The above demonstrates that Tiller Man is reading my personal Facebook account, as the reference about Sarah Winther uses the exact words I have used in a recent post there. Here's the post: https://www.facebook.com/hudsonbruce/posts/10208385740155181?comment_id=10208388134335034&notif_t=feed_comment&notif_id=1464780141564080

 

I wonder if Tiller Man by posting this is trying to be threatening, or is attempting to be funny. Or knows that he's being creepy.

 

You know, I used to almost admire the cleverness and humor of Tiller Man, but the following image sums up my latest thinking.

 

1d

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I want Gantt to get to the bottom of why New Zealand is refusing permission for Radial Sailor Sarah Winther to go to the Olympics after she met the Olympic standard to attend the Olympic Games, but not 'some other standard' imposed by NZ olympic officials.

 

Was this decided by a democratic vote?

 

Did all the bodies involved in this decision publish minutes?

 

Has anyone deleted any posts about this?

 

Is Bill Crane somehow involved? After all one of his relatives sailed in the Laser class at the 2012 Olympics so there must be some connection.

 

Go for it Gantt.

 

Everyone else please stay out of his way.

 

W

 

The above demonstrates that Tiller Man is reading my personal Facebook account, as the reference about Sarah Winther uses the exact words I have used in a recent post there. Here's the post: https://www.facebook.com/hudsonbruce/posts/10208385740155181?comment_id=10208388134335034&notif_t=feed_comment&notif_id=1464780141564080

 

I wonder if Tiller Man by posting this is trying to be threatening, or is attempting to be funny. Or knows that he's being creepy.

 

You know, I used to almost admire the cleverness and humor of Tiller Man, but the following image sums up my latest thinking.

 

 

Not that I am too scared to click that link but Gantt might you be so kind as to explain it all here? Because for sure there is no SA thread on the topic and somebody is mixed up.

 

 

Thank you. W

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I want Gantt to get to the bottom of why New Zealand is refusing permission for Radial Sailor Sarah Winther to go to the Olympics after she met the Olympic standard to attend the Olympic Games, but not 'some other standard' imposed by NZ olympic officials.

 

Was this decided by a democratic vote?

 

Did all the bodies involved in this decision publish minutes?

 

Has anyone deleted any posts about this?

 

Is Bill Crane somehow involved? After all one of his relatives sailed in the Laser class at the 2012 Olympics so there must be some connection.

 

Go for it Gantt.

 

Everyone else please stay out of his way.

 

W

 

The above demonstrates that Tiller Man is reading my personal Facebook account, as the reference about Sarah Winther uses the exact words I have used in a recent post there. Here's the post: https://www.facebook.com/hudsonbruce/posts/10208385740155181?comment_id=10208388134335034&notif_t=feed_comment&notif_id=1464780141564080

 

I wonder if Tiller Man by posting this is trying to be threatening, or is attempting to be funny. Or knows that he's being creepy.

 

You know, I used to almost admire the cleverness and humor of Tiller Man, but the following image sums up my latest thinking.

 

 

 

 

Gantt - not trying to be threatening or creepy. We are Facebook friends after all. So your FB posts show up in my newsfeed.

 

Just giving you an opening to make the case here for another sailing issue on which you obviously feel passionately.

 

I am fascinated by the strategies and techniques you have used to make the case on the Kirby lawsuit issue and am wondering if you would deploy similar methods in support of Sarah Winther.

 

Love you man!

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Tiller Man is reading my personal Facebook account.

 

 

 

We are Facebook friends after all.

 

 

Wait, what... we are? Geeze, this is awkward. I was 99er% sure that could not be. G

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Tiller Man is reading my personal Facebook account.

 

 

 

We are Facebook friends after all.

 

 

Wait, what... we are? Geeze, this is awkward. I was 99er% sure that could not be. G

 

 

LOL. In a world where we use different identities from our real names on forums like this and then some of us imaginary characters are accused of being the same people as other imaginary characters (and them some characters play along with such delusions) it's getting harder and harder to keep up with who is who and who is our friend and who's on first.

 

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Gosh I love our music selection but not so sure about this Aero thing. Chinese Sunfish seem more my speed. Regards, WWW

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Gosh I love our music selection but not so sure about this Aero thing. Chinese Sunfish seem more my speed. Regards, WWW

 

 

Chinese Lasers. Chinese Sunfish. English RS Aeros.

 

Aren't there any American made single-handers any more?

 

Oh yes, the Melges 14.

 

But where are the fleets? Where are the fleets?

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