Otterbox

Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

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IPL - Agree there are reasons and leverage on both sides that should (hopefully) drive settlement.

 

My point is a bit different though. It seems as if its perhaps possible that if LPE licensed the Laser trademark to a 3rd party, that 3rd party was willing to follow and meet specific class criteria and the class was also on board... there could be a new builder of class legal Lasers in LPE's territory. Its not clear if GS owns any IP that it could use as consideration to enter into or to force that new builder to sign a new contract with them and pay them royalties. If so the value of what GS paid for is significantly damaged (by their own doing I agree... their termination of the builders agreement). Add in that given they already agreed in the roll-back that they would not, they already can't sue BKI much as they might want all their money back and they may be the most strident in settlement discussions.

 

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

 

 

 

Okay. I understand your question. LPE is Europe and Asia (ex Japan and Australasia). The question is

If LPE wanted to stop building Lasers and license the trade mark out (we have seen no indication that they have any interest in this. If Rastegar wanted to get out of the Laser business, why would he not just sell LPE?), then what would they need, if anything, from GSL?

 

The answer is that they don't necessarily NEED anything from GSL. It depends what they want.

 

Lets start from scratch and assume an all new builder in Europe wants to start building Lasers. Let's list the things they might want and who they have to approach.

 

At its most basic, they can pop a mold off an existing Laser and start building the boat without permission from anyone but here is some things that they might want:

 

1. If they would prefer to call it the Laser (with obvious brand recognition and commercial advantages): They would certainly need to license from the trademark holder (The Rastegar affiliated companies). The ISAF agreement is still binding on LPE so they would probably also need permission from ILCA and World Sailing.

 

2. If they would prefer to make the boats identical to existing Lasers and use the build specified in the construction manual. They would need access to the construction manual which is maintained by World Sailing, and my recollection (time prevents me checking ) is that WS would need the permission of ILCA and LPE to release the construction manual.

 

3. If they would prefer the boats to be eligible for racing in Laser events and World Sailing events and events hosted by MNAs. They would need to be builders approved by ILCA and WS

 

4. If they want to be able to say something along the lines of "authorized by/approved by/ licensed by" Bruce Kirby, then they would need to be approved by BK/BKI/GSL (depending on nature of 2011 agreement.) This would also have the advantage of allowing WS/ILCA to approve a new builder under steps 1 thru 3 without any risk of litigation surrounding the 1989 ISAF agreement.

 

Frankly....I think 1 thru 4 are so cumbersome that the much more commercially viable deal would simply be to buy LPE. Furthermore LPE is moving to a large centralized production model with all Lasers sold around the world produced from one low -cost factory, so I doubt LPE is ever going to license its trademark or grant permission for another builder in any of its territories, so for legitimate class legal Lasers, I think you buy LPE. Or you simply build non-class legal boats with no approvals from anyone.

 

I suspect there is a market for non class-legal boats for junior programs and recreational facilities. This litigation has opened the door for a builder to build a 14 foot generic boat identical to the Laser. It wont be a large , high margin business compared to the legitimate Laser....but it will be a useful additional profit for someone. The Intensity 14?????.

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IPL - Agree there are reasons and leverage on both sides that should (hopefully) drive settlement.

 

My point is a bit different though. It seems as if its perhaps possible that if LPE licensed the Laser trademark to a 3rd party, that 3rd party was willing to follow and meet specific class criteria and the class was also on board... there could be a new builder of class legal Lasers in LPE's territory. Its not clear if GS owns any IP that it could use as consideration to enter into or to force that new builder to sign a new contract with them and pay them royalties. If so the value of what GS paid for is significantly damaged (by their own doing I agree... their termination of the builders agreement). Add in that given they already agreed in the roll-back that they would not, they already can't sue BKI much as they might want all their money back and they may be the most strident in settlement discussions.

 

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

 

 

 

Okay. I understand your question. LPE is Europe and Asia (ex Japan and Australasia). The question is

If LPE wanted to stop building Lasers and license the trade mark out (we have seen no indication that they have any interest in this. If Rastegar wanted to get out of the Laser business, why would he not just sell LPE?), then what would they need, if anything, from GSL?

 

The answer is that they don't necessarily NEED anything from GSL. It depends what they want.

 

Lets start from scratch and assume an all new builder in Europe wants to start building Lasers. Let's list the things they might want and who they have to approach.

 

At its most basic, they can pop a mold off an existing Laser and start building the boat without permission from anyone but here is some things that they might want:

 

1. If they would prefer to call it the Laser (with obvious brand recognition and commercial advantages): They would certainly need to license from the trademark holder (The Rastegar affiliated companies). The ISAF agreement is still binding on LPE so they would probably also need permission from ILCA and World Sailing.

 

2. If they would prefer to make the boats identical to existing Lasers and use the build specified in the construction manual. They would need access to the construction manual which is maintained by World Sailing, and my recollection (time prevents me checking ) is that WS would need the permission of ILCA and LPE to release the construction manual.

 

3. If they would prefer the boats to be eligible for racing in Laser events and World Sailing events and events hosted by MNAs. They would need to be builders approved by ILCA and WS

 

4. If they want to be able to say something along the lines of "authorized by/approved by/ licensed by" Bruce Kirby, then they would need to be approved by BK/BKI/GSL (depending on nature of 2011 agreement.) This would also have the advantage of allowing WS/ILCA to approve a new builder under steps 1 thru 3 without any risk of litigation surrounding the 1989 ISAF agreement.

 

Frankly....I think 1 thru 4 are so cumbersome that the much more commercially viable deal would simply be to buy LPE. Furthermore LPE is moving to a large centralized production model with all Lasers sold around the world produced from one low -cost factory, so I doubt LPE is ever going to license its trademark or grant permission for another builder in any of its territories, so for legitimate class legal Lasers, I think you buy LPE. Or you simply build non-class legal boats with no approvals from anyone.

 

I suspect there is a market for non class-legal boats for junior programs and recreational facilities. This litigation has opened the door for a builder to build a 14 foot generic boat identical to the Laser. It wont be a large , high margin business compared to the legitimate Laser....but it will be a useful additional profit for someone. The Intensity 14?????.

 

Yea, agree. An Intensity 14, a 99er, or a Torch frankly. Wonder if anyone will as the generic sails and parts showed a ready and willing market at the grass root level.

 

And yes, the bolded part of your 4th point is what it seem to boil down to as all the GS has left. Just does not seem to have much teeth to it and that there are various work-arounds the other parties could pursue (if they haven't already). That why I suspect they (GS) are most difficult party to deal with at settlement. They are out $1.6MM, have no recourse with re BKI, and potentially almost nothing of value left with regards to any future builder of class legal Lasers in what is now LPE territory.

 

So we wait and see...

 

#settlealready

 

#launchthetorchalready

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Is there another option that GS can put Torch labels on some of their std Lasers and sell them all around the world without ISAF stickers?

And if these boats become more available and more numerous that LPE boats, will ILCA and WS bend over and accept the fact, and change their rules, just as they did 5 years ago when LPE refused to pay royalties?

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Is there another option that GS can put Torch labels on some of their std Lasers and sell them all around the world without ISAF stickers?

And if these boats become more available and more numerous that LPE boats, will ILCA and WS bend over and accept the fact, and change their rules, just as they did 5 years ago when LPE refused to pay royalties?

That would be a direct breach of the 1989 agreement that was signed with ISAF and ILCA likely to cause PS to lose all kinds of approvals + end up in Lloyd's arbitration. It would also destroy the value of the trademark that they own.

That would be a super dumb thing to do.

 

Nah.....I think they threaten to appeal or file a new suit and then settle with everyone keeping their previous regions. If I had a crystal ball I would also forecast that eventually there is one global builder outside Japan in 5 years. Is Australia and NZ really large enough to justify its own dedicated builder????

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Is there another option that GS can put Torch labels on some of their std Lasers and sell them all around the world without ISAF stickers?

And if these boats become more available and more numerous that LPE boats, will ILCA and WS bend over and accept the fact, and change their rules, just as they did 5 years ago when LPE refused to pay royalties?

That would be a direct breach of the 1989 agreement that was signed with ISAF and ILCA likely to cause PS to lose all kinds of approvals + end up in Lloyd's arbitration. It would also destroy the value of the trademark that they own.

That would be a super dumb thing to do.

 

Nah.....I think they threaten to appeal or file a new suit and then settle with everyone keeping their previous regions. If I had a crystal ball I would also forecast that eventually there is one global builder outside Japan in 5 years. Is Australia and NZ really large enough to justify its own dedicated builder????

 

 

I would have thought so too but the odd thing about that is that is I think PSA is long since listed as a builder for the Torch, no? (http://www.kirbytorch.com/builders)

 

And they doubled down when the Torch facebook page has an update on manufacturing from back in 2015, no? (https://www.facebook.com/KirbyTorchSailing/) I ran into some dude at a regatta who indicated those boats were produced by PSA but I think that was on the theory that LPE would not have (or maybe he recognized the buildings)... I have no clue what is true. You for sure got me laughing out loud with the implication of your last line though. Guess its a fair enough statement and has some logic to it. But who would have thunk when this all started that LPE would have won everything in first SJ decision and that the only remaining claims (at least as of today) would be against BKI and GS/PSA. And you are hinting about a future state where only LPE is left standing, LOL. Oh boy...

 

Still no statements outside of the ILCA's. Hopefully that is good news... or maybe they are just reloading. Seems best to just go sailing.

 

IPL - How long would it typically take for it to happen if BKI was going to appeal... or if GS/PSA was going to file claims?

 

Wess

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I would have thought so too but the odd thing about that is that is I think PSA is long since listed as a builder for the Torch, no? (http://www.kirbytorch.com/builders)

 

And they doubled down when the Torch facebook page has an update on manufacturing from back in 2015, no? (https://www.facebook.com/KirbyTorchSailing/) I ran into some dude at a regatta who indicated those boats were produced by PSA but I think that was on the theory that LPE would not have (or maybe he recognized the buildings)...

 

Those are the same pictures first posted to the kirbytorch.com website in 2013. They were taken as the PSA facility in Australia, and even had an ILCA sticker in the cockpit (which was later Photoshopped out).

 

http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2013/05/kirby-torch-sail.html

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I would have thought so too but the odd thing about that is that is I think PSA is long since listed as a builder for the Torch, no? (http://www.kirbytorch.com/builders)

 

And they doubled down when the Torch facebook page has an update on manufacturing from back in 2015, no? (https://www.facebook.com/KirbyTorchSailing/) I ran into some dude at a regatta who indicated those boats were produced by PSA but I think that was on the theory that LPE would not have (or maybe he recognized the buildings)...

 

Those are the same pictures first posted to the kirbytorch.com website in 2013. They were taken at the PSA facility in Australia, and even had an ILCA sticker in the cockpit (which was later Photoshopped out).

 

http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2013/05/kirby-torch-sail.html

 

Thats what a few folks have said... taken at PSA. But PSA built boats surprises me, as the listing of them as builders, the original pics, and then the 2015 update seems to put them at further risk of what IPL points to.

 

Don't they have an expression down there... "when in a hole - stop digging!?" :blink:

 

I had forgotten about the TM blog post on this and some of the very interesting comments to it (including from other identified Torch builders).

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So maybe after the dust settles I'll be able to buy an Australian-built Laser in the US, albeit stripped of all Laser logos? But why would I want to do that when I can buy an RS Aero instead?

 

 

 

you guys are lucky - the Aero seems to really be hitting hard there with proper fleets popping up. There are a few in the UK too, but none around where I am :-(

 

I'll be getting another Laser shortly to join the 40+ at our club.... not that this charade has had any bearing on that whatsoever.

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"Settled" would mean the parties had come to an agreement whereas as far as I can see, Kirby has plain lost. It is fascinating that after 4000+ posts, nobody now wants to discuss the actual outcome.

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The outcome is the Aero

Canntt be Gouv! Call the royalty police; somebody hacked Gouv's account. He would know his buddy does not get paid for the Aero... though Tillerman is doing his happy dance over that suggestion. He may even post a video!! :P Besides, the outcome is the UFO; not the Aero. Let's go OD FOILING on the UFO!!

 

"Settled" would mean the parties had come to an agreement whereas as far as I can see, Kirby has plain lost. It is fascinating that after 4000+ posts, nobody now wants to discuss the actual outcome.

 

Please don't complain about the pickings when you come late to the party. If you go back to when it happened, folks did discuss it. And losing the first beat to the ww mark does not necessarily mean the race is lost... he may be off in the corner on the run planning for a shift and plotting his dramatic rally. Or maybe he took the $1.6MM he reportedly got paid for selling out, retired from the race after the first leg and sailed off into the sunset back to the club rather than keep racing. Or maybe its team racing and his partner is better positioned to try to win the points in this race. Or maybe he is just getting to work to actually launch the Torch as promised... OK I'm guessing its not that.

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The outcome is the Aero

Canntt be Gouv! Call the royalty police; somebody hacked Gouv's account. He would know his buddy does not get paid for the Aero... though Tillerman is doing his happy dance over that suggestion. He may even post a video!! :P Besides, the outcome is the UFO; not the Aero. Let's go OD FOILING on the UFO!!

 

"Settled" would mean the parties had come to an agreement whereas as far as I can see, Kirby has plain lost. It is fascinating that after 4000+ posts, nobody now wants to discuss the actual outcome.

 

Please don't complain about the pickings when you come late to the party. If you go back to when it happened, folks did discuss it. And losing the first beat to the ww mark does not necessarily mean the race is lost... he may be off in the corner on the run planning for a shift and plotting his dramatic rally. Or maybe he took the $1.6MM he reportedly got paid for selling out, retired from the race after the first leg and sailed off into the sunset back to the club rather than keep racing. Or maybe its team racing and his partner is better positioned to try to win the points in this race. Or maybe he is just getting to work to actually launch the Torch as promised... OK I'm guessing its not that.

 

 

 

LOL. I must admit I am a little sad for Bruce but also more than a little pleased for Laser sailors in how the lawsuit was decided. As I have explained before here, I was initially on Bruce's side in all this kerfuffle, but he lost my support when he decided to sue the class (i.e. us.)

 

I also don't think the outcome of the lawsuit will have any impact on the success or otherwise of the Aero. The views (and buying decisions) of folk like Gouvernail - Laser sailors who try out the Aero with an open mind - will be much more significant. Gouvernail has written an account of his weekend on an Aero in another thread - and I read his impressions and conclusions with interest. The people that piss me off are the ones who verbally trash the Aero but who won't even try it - probably afraid they will actually like it.

 

And the answer may well be the UFO. Looks like a very interesting option. And as it's being developed very near the site of Proper Course Global HQ I hope to be able to try it out one day soon.

 

In the meantime, over a hundred odd older Laser sailors are sailing in the Older Laser Sailors US Nationals in Marblehead this weekend, so obviously (at least for those geezers) the outcome is the Laser.

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The outcome is the Aero

Canntt be Gouv! Call the royalty police; somebody hacked Gouv's account. He would know his buddy does not get paid for the Aero... though Tillerman is doing his happy dance over that suggestion. He may even post a video!! :P Besides, the outcome is the UFO; not the Aero. Let's go OD FOILING on the UFO!!

 

"Settled" would mean the parties had come to an agreement whereas as far as I can see, Kirby has plain lost. It is fascinating that after 4000+ posts, nobody now wants to discuss the actual outcome.

 

Please don't complain about the pickings when you come late to the party. If you go back to when it happened, folks did discuss it. And losing the first beat to the ww mark does not necessarily mean the race is lost... he may be off in the corner on the run planning for a shift and plotting his dramatic rally. Or maybe he took the $1.6MM he reportedly got paid for selling out, retired from the race after the first leg and sailed off into the sunset back to the club rather than keep racing. Or maybe its team racing and his partner is better positioned to try to win the points in this race. Or maybe he is just getting to work to actually launch the Torch as promised... OK I'm guessing its not that.

 

 

 

LOL. I must admit I am a little sad for Bruce but also more than a little pleased for Laser sailors in how the lawsuit was decided. As I have explained before here, I was initially on Bruce's side in all this kerfuffle, but he lost my support when he decided to sue the class (i.e. us.)

 

I also don't think the outcome of the lawsuit will have any impact on the success or otherwise of the Aero. The views (and buying decisions) of folk like Gouvernail - Laser sailors who try out the Aero with an open mind - will be much more significant. Gouvernail has written an account of his weekend on an Aero in another thread - and I read his impressions and conclusions with interest. The people that piss me off are the ones who verbally trash the Aero but who won't even try it - probably afraid they will actually like it.

 

And the answer may well be the UFO. Looks like a very interesting option. And as it's being developed very near the site of Proper Course Global HQ I hope to be able to try it out one day soon.

 

In the meantime, over a hundred odd older Laser sailors are sailing in the Older Laser Sailors US Nationals in Marblehead this weekend, so obviously (at least for those geezers) the outcome is the Laser.

 

 

LOL, well keep in mind we don't know that he or his partners down under have thrown in the towel. He may want more than the $1.6 million, or his partners may want to rule the world. So they may sue "us" and/or others again... still to be seen.

 

I don't know about the Aero. A better Laser for sure but for lots of and large OD fleets it lacks the wide availability of cheap used boats that are still competitive at a club level like Laser has. That can only come with lots of time.

 

If I am going to spend that (cost of a new Aero) I admit I am more interested to learn something new (foiling) and see if OD fleets can be built there. Give me a UFO.

 

Have to end the thread with a music video so...

 

I JUST WANT TO FLY...

 

 

PS - TM, drop me a PM if you are down for the Naps show. Cheers.

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In the aftermath, is the following correct?

1. LP will pay future royalties to GS

2. The royalties that were put in escrow by LP will be disbursed to GS

3. Kirby won't loose any sleep about keeping the 2 million from GS since he really did sell the kaboodle

4. Kirby stickers will become super valuable :)

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In the aftermath, is the following correct?

1. LP will pay future royalties to GS

2. The royalties that were put in escrow by LP will be disbursed to GS

3. Kirby won't loose any sleep about keeping the 2 million from GS since he really did sell the kaboodle

4. Kirby stickers will become super valuable :)

 

Probably only #3.

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In the aftermath, is the following correct?

1. LP will pay future royalties to GS

2. The royalties that were put in escrow by LP will be disbursed to GS

3. Kirby won't loose any sleep about keeping the 2 million from GS since he really did sell the kaboodle

4. Kirby stickers will become super valuable :)

 

 

No, no, yes, no.

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In the aftermath, is the following correct?

1. LP will pay future royalties to GS

2. The royalties that were put in escrow by LP will be disbursed to GS

3. Kirby won't loose any sleep about keeping the 2 million from GS since he really did sell the kaboodle

4. Kirby stickers will become super valuable :)

 

 

No, no, yes, no.

 

 

TM is smarter than me but while my guesses are the same for 1 and 3 I hope he is wrong about 4. I got all mine (belts, shirts and membership) and planned to retire off them. :blink:

 

Either way, what an odd apparent ending. In like a lion and out like a lamb. Maybe the grey hair was tone deaf and never got the message?

 

 

Of course, walking away free and clear with $1.6 million for something drawn up in the last century ain't bad as a downside.

 

Of course his partners in... well whatever you want to call it... sure got the short end of the stick. Curious if they will cut their losses. Or opt to fight and use HWCBN as their lawyer while BK and the Gouv partner to launch the Torch at discount prices and stimulate a new wave of growth in sailing.

 

We will have to wait and see. Only time will tell.

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If I build a generic Laser I won't be partnering with anybody. I will just make molds and build boats.

It is extremely doubtful I will ever make the molds

 

Gouv - Sorry, I did not mean that in a serious way and was not trying to wind you up. I should have used that special sarcasm font for the end of that post, LOL.

 

I am pretty sure GS will not be using HWCBN as their lawyer if they do reopen the litigation. :wacko:

 

And I doubt the Torch will ever launch. Much as I think it (Torch as a discount generic Laser) would have been good for the class and sailing in general at a club level, it seems to have been just another line of _ _ in a long stream of it.

 

Hope all is well... and it sounds like you had some fun on an Aero! You gotta try the UFO too (no sarcasm)!!

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so it all stopped but has the ownership, trademark builders manual stuff all been solved?

Has the Laser been thrown into public ownership as there are no valid rights on anything?

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I think all the judge said is that GS has the rights and not Kirby, therefore his case has no merit. There are several counterclaims filed by LP that are still unresolved, and conceivably GS could still sue LP.

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so it all stopped but has the ownership, trademark builders manual stuff all been solved?

Has the Laser been thrown into public ownership as there are no valid rights on anything?

 

There are valid rights. Various builders in various regions own the Laser trademark. No dispute there. Same with builder's manual; class and builder controlled.

 

As for the rest I think (?) anyone has been free for many years to make and sell as exact a copy of a Laser as they can possibly make... they just can't call it a Laser. I think (?) some have done exactly that in some markets (such as the so-called 99er).

 

Much as some here tried with much smoke and mirrors and repeated posts (that lacked any music videos, LOL) to make it more, this case was a contractual dispute. Period. BK held certain historic rights that were captured in renewable contracts (that could also not be renewed). The court found that BK sold those rights to GS so BK has no standing to sue. All parties (AFAIK) including LP, GS, BK agree the contracts that held those rights were terminated (I am sure they disagree by whom, when, for what reasons, and the implications). So broadly speaking, the class has the manual, the builders have the trademark, and BK has the $1.6 million that he retains after GS paid him for the rights that were in contracts that all parties agree were thereafter terminated. An interesting question is if GS has any right(s) (IP) left from what it bought from BK that it could use to form the basis/consideration of a new contract with anyone since the old ones were terminated. I suspect they don't but that is an opinion not a fact.

 

Its an interesting case if you happen to be into IP and licensing but beyond that this is and was a non-event for class sailors despite much noise by many in the past to make it more than it was. The class took the right steps to ensure that the sailors would not be impacted by the contractual dispute between builder(s) and historic rights owner(s).

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The class took the right steps to ensure that the sailors would not be impacted by the contractual dispute between builder(s) and historic rights owner(s).

 

 

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so we will end up with lots of builders selling a class legal boat to enter a Laser regatta its just wont be called a laser

like lots of other classes out there?

The EU will put 100% tariffs on them if they are built in the UK, lol

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so we will end up with lots of builders selling a class legal boat to enter a Laser regatta its just wont be called a laser

like lots of other classes out there?

The EU will put 100% tariffs on them if they are built in the UK, lol

 

 

They will all be built in China. And President Trump will put 100% tariffs on them if they are imported into the US.

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so we will end up with lots of builders selling a class legal boat to enter a Laser regatta its just wont be called a laser

like lots of other classes out there?

The EU will put 100% tariffs on them if they are built in the UK, lol

 

 

They will all be built in China. And President Trump will put 100% tariffs on them if they are imported into the US.

 

Yea and 200% tariffs if they are sold in Texas... because you know... its Texas and they deserve it.

 

The class of course has nothing to say about what is and isn't class legal so they have no way to stop those generic boats from competing any more than they can stop the use of generic sails at class events.... oh wait... -_-

 

Geeze TM, how many socks does your new Aero friend have? Sniffing all that resin seems to be getting to him. He should come visit. Matthew is coming and bringing some balmy breezes to clear the air this weekend.

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Thanks for reminding me.

I need some new cold weather sailing socks.

You do.

 

I thought you would have knitted one by now with a slight mis-spelling of HWCBN and begin posting in his style. Could have had lots of fun with that...

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I am confused. Who is being accused of posting here with socks?? Wess or Tillerman?

 

More to the point do we care?.......

 

On another note.... LP have used strong arm tactics on the 'replica' parts issue.

 

I know of one supplier who has stopped supplying them because another side of their business would suffer as dealers in the UK and US have been told if they deal with any company that provides replica or training parts they will have their dealership status revoked. Fair enough some might say but had LP not been so greedy on the price in the first place it would not be an issue. We were always told one of the reasons genuine parts were so expensive was because of roylaties that needed to be paid.... ya know the ones that weren't being paid...apparently....

 

I'll get my coat....

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"We were always told one of the reasons genuine parts were so expensive was because of roylaties that needed to be paid"

 

Kirby only ever got royalties on new boats. Not sails or other parts. That's detailed on some of the documents that made it into the public domain.

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"We were always told one of the reasons genuine parts were so expensive was because of roylaties that needed to be paid"

 

Kirby only ever got royalties on new boats. Not sails or other parts. That's detailed on some of the documents that made it into the public domain.

 

A royalty is payable on the sail to someone, that is the reason for the 'button' I believe.

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The button fee (don't ask me how much, cos I don't know) is paid to the Class Association, of which a proportion (don't ask me how much, cos I don't know) is (or should be) paid to each District, dependent on the sail sales to that district.

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I canntt understand how HWCBN can hide from the truth for so long, TM is not a rockstar DJ with a killer music blog, IPL is not on the supreme court, Gouv is not prez of the Torch class, and Wess is not incarcerated.

So right but so wrong. TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT!

B-have or the class royalty police will come get you. They might be bored having nothing left to do and all... B)

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The button fee (don't ask me how much, cos I don't know) is paid to the Class Association, of which a proportion (don't ask me how much, cos I don't know) is (or should be) paid to each District, dependent on the sail sales to that district.

 

Really? Nobody ever sent me any sail royalty checks in the years that I was a Laser class district secretary.

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Wait, I know the answer to that.

 

Don't use a guy named Wess, instead go with this highly experience lawnmower repairman...

 

I think his name is something like Canntt or Shanntt or...

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Know any good lawyers who have been successful at suing the Laser class lately?

 

 

Successful in winning a case, or successful in generating billable hours?

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This may be your best work ever TM.

 

LOL, @ 0:45, "But Sol, how can I sue [...] I have no grounds!"

 

You are evil but I sure did laugh.

 

He didn't mention class association though so you still might want to look elsewhere. In New Zealand perhaps?

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I canntt understand how HWCBN can hide from the truth for so long, TM is not a rockstar DJ with a killer music blog, IPL is not on the supreme court, Gouv is not prez of the Torch class, and Wess is not incarcerated.

 

I was hoping to fill the vacancy but the nomination process has been held up.

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OK, finally read the whole thing. Here's my take.

... LPE/QMI said they shouldn't have paid royalties on Laser Radials and 4.7s.

 

I believe that I suggested this as an explanation for the claim that LPE had overpaid royalties.

 

So, eventually, it ends, not with a bang, but a whimper.

 

Ultimately it looks like LPE has won. Do they get to build more Lasers and not pay the royalties?

 

It looks like (as I think I suggested) Kirby has received terrible legal advice, going back to the original sale of the Laser rights and contracts.

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As long as there is money for some part time jobs, free trips to the worlds sites, money for trips to the worlds, money to pay folks to run major regattas, money for IYRU, kickbacks from the chambers of congress at the major venues, some sponsorship and advertising money, and sales commissions

Ain't nobody gonna rock the boat.

 

Gulf Coasts this weekend oughta be fun.

Register,,, rig,,, sail,,, visit with friends,,,, sail more,,,, hit a good restaurant,,,, go home

Wow; I didn't know.

 

But I "ain't gonna rock the boat."

 

Heck, I am going to nominate TM for the job and hope he gives me a finders fee cut.

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As long as there is money for some part time jobs, free trips to the worlds sites, money for trips to the worlds, money to pay folks to run major regattas, money for IYRU, kickbacks from the chambers of congress at the major venues, some sponsorship and advertising money, and sales commissions

Ain't nobody gonna rock the boat.

 

Gulf Coasts this weekend oughta be fun.

Register,,, rig,,, sail,,, visit with friends,,,, sail more,,,, hit a good restaurant,,,, go home

Wow; I didn't know.

 

But I "ain't gonna rock the boat."

 

Heck, I am going to nominate TM for the job and hope he gives me a finders fee cut.

 

 

 

What? I lost the thread here.

 

What job?

 

Are we talking about being Bruce Kirby's new lawyer? Who would he like to sue next?

 

 

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As long as there is money for some part time jobs, free trips to the worlds sites, money for trips to the worlds, money to pay folks to run major regattas, money for IYRU, kickbacks from the chambers of congress at the major venues, some sponsorship and advertising money, and sales commissions

Ain't nobody gonna rock the boat.

 

Gulf Coasts this weekend oughta be fun.

Register,,, rig,,, sail,,, visit with friends,,,, sail more,,,, hit a good restaurant,,,, go home

Wow; I didn't know.

 

But I "ain't gonna rock the boat."

 

Heck, I am going to nominate TM for the job and hope he gives me a finders fee cut.

 

 

 

What? I lost the thread here.

 

What job?

 

Are we talking about being Bruce Kirby's new lawyer? Who would he like to sue next?

 

 

 

 

Maybe its time we cut Bruce some slack, change the subject and let him enjoy a very well earned retirement. Over time I hope we remember the many decades of fun to hundreds of thousands of sailors that his boat has provided and the bump in the road over the last 4 years will fade into distant memory.

 

After all I reckon there must be some other law suits that we can go after.

 

It has to be said in favor of both litigants, at least they didnt issue legal threads to close this forum discussion down: tartan--threatens-online forum with law-suit.

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After all I reckon there must be some other law suits that we can go after.

 

 

 

 

2013 was a vintage year for law suits against Class Associations. The Laser Class was not the only class sued for Tortious Interference

 

One wonders what Gannt would think of this Class Association law suit.

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In this day and age, is there really any need for formal organized sailing class associations (with dues and bank accounts and constitutions and lawsuits etc.)?

What are class associations really for anyway?

Cann'tt all the essential functions of a class be done by a few enthusiastic volunteers using free tools available on the web?

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Probably not at the level accomplished by the ILCA. Organizing the Worlds every single year is a larger job than any volunteer will do ten, twenty, or fifty years in a row.

Just keeping track of the sixty odd countries associations and mailing newsletters everywhere is a pretty big chore.

We probably need at least one full time person to run the ILCA and that person would need occasional help setting up worlds events.

 

North America is a much larger task than the ILCA.

Taking care of the over 3000 members cards and making up four / 64 page newsletters filled with information about fleets, regattas, districts, how to articles, regatta results, keeping track of the Grand Prix, managing our 20 world's berths, attending 25 events a year, selling ads and creating copy, finding Regatta hosts and keeping those organized at least three years ahead so we could secure fabulous venues at prime times of the year is a large part of the work but the NA Association needs to constantly call and otherwise communicate with the 300+ regatta hosts to make certain next year is bigger than this year. The NA Class has to constantly send sailors information and help locals publicize regattas.

The need for photos never ends and there must be endless begging supplemented by personal photography.

The office sells books and t shirts and sweaters and videos and needs to constantly update the newsletters and website to tell folks what is available

 

Website?? A person could update the website full time. Everybody loves photos and articles and today's websites need videos and live feeds to the bigger regattas

 

Results... they have to be everywhere.... along with photos and the NOR for next year and the venue for the next five years

 

The website and newsletters need to be constantly updated with descriptions of the newest best equipment, his to use it and where to get it.

 

Properly running the NA class operation takes no less than 100 hours a week and includes a lot of sleeping in a van while the other person drives.

 

 

It takes a couple good friends who are willing to live like arrested adolescents with an obcession.

There is no time for dating, wives, pets, gardens, kids or the home fleet.

Anyone who cannot do that is unqualified for the job.....

 

Bookkeeping?? Notice I didn't mention it??

Why?? Because there is no where near enough money available from the dues, advertising, and builder sponsorship to pay even minimum wage to the crazies who would do that job.

We can easily judge whether our $40 measly bucks a year is being well spent

And

STFU and hope they don't quit

I know I went backwards financially at the rate of about $50,000 my first year, $30,000 the second and $20,000 the third.

I think the association management gig is a break even deal at about 3500 members and a good job with 5,000 members.

My plan was to get sponsorships from GM , Exxon, and a hotel chain and I had them set up for the 2003 sailing season but they all backed off when I was not going to be there to manage their investment

 

Anyway, somebody has to do all that and it won't be some friendly volunteer.

 

The alternative is a dying game

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Cann'tt all the essential functions of a class be done by a few enthusiastic volunteers using free tools available on the web?

 

Probably not at the level accomplished by the ILCA. Organizing the Worlds every single year is a larger job than any volunteer will do ten, twenty, or fifty years in a row.

 

Gouv's right. I'm not actually sure that on line tools help much anyway. The problem is scale. Small classes run all volunteer quite handily, but there comes a point at which the sheer volume of work is going to be more than volunteers will consistently be able to cope with year on year. And even then I bet you anyone involved with CA management will have at least one horror story about the year old Bill kinda lost it, and nothing got done, the Nationals were chaotic, half the open meeting events didn't know we were coming, and so on, because it all got to much for someone but they were so ashamed about it they didn't tell anyone...

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Volunteering is pretty dead in the uk at least apart from those of pensionable age or at least approaching it.

Everyone expects instant gratification and stuff like participating in organising ones own choice of entertainment is something that the modern "time poor" generation would far rather outsource at least in principle.

You get the odd volunteer but unless the activity in question is seriously enjoyable it will be easy to get disillusioned as the volunteers get essentiallly zero appreciation.

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^

 

I helped run a class association for a few years. I was an owner/volunteer. One member, who found the time to sail every event and did quite well, was especially vocal about what "somebody" ought to organise. Care to join the committee? Sorry no, he said, I am much too busy sailing. Unless us suckers, apparently. Way to go on motivating those who organise your class, dipshit.

 

But quite honestly, these days, I am happy belonging to a club and to a class association that calls me a "member" when I am really a "customer". It costs a bit more but that's OK by me. It isn't what everyone wants or can even afford but I think it's now what most sailors want. Not just sailors, look at those huge cycling "sportives" where people cheerfully pay large fees for an organised events on public roads anyone can ride anytime for free.

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As long as there is money for some part time jobs, free trips to the worlds sites, money for trips to the worlds, money to pay folks to run major regattas, money for IYRU, kickbacks from the chambers of congress at the major venues, some sponsorship and advertising money, and sales commissions

Ain't nobody gonna rock the boat.

 

Gulf Coasts this weekend oughta be fun.

Register,,, rig,,, sail,,, visit with friends,,,, sail more,,,, hit a good restaurant,,,, go home

Wow; I didn't know.

 

But I "ain't gonna rock the boat."

 

Heck, I am going to nominate TM for the job and hope he gives me a finders fee cut.

 

 

 

What? I lost the thread here.

 

What job?

 

Are we talking about being Bruce Kirby's new lawyer? Who would he like to sue next?

 

 

 

No, TM, not Bruce's lawyer. I am talking about the job that gets all the free trips, money and kickbacks that Gouv references above. You know the job he means. Next election cycle I am nominating you, LOL.

 

I do agree w Gouv that volunteers cant do it all for a class with the size, global span, complexity, and Olympic status that Laser has.

 

Even for smaller classes, I think the manufacturer has a vested interest to be and stay involved. But for that they need stability. Not a dinghy obviously but go back a few years and think about the Corsair F28R class. Was quite active and full of buzz. I ran into them at Key West Race Week and they were all that. The manufacturer was not involved at all really. Was all driven by one very good and active volunteer owner/racer/sailor. Then he sold his F28R, bought a Seawind I believe, and went cruising. F28R class was dead shortly thereafter. I have done a lot of volunteering and it is one tiring thankless job. Just don't think that a pure volunteer model is sustainable. Too few willing to do it. And too many not doing anything are willing to b*tch about those that do as Dogwatch notes.

 

One of the many good reasons I will not criticize the class is that I have been in that barrel (smaller barrel than Laser). I had it easy but free trips, money, and kickbacks my *ss. Its a headache of unequaled magnitude no matter how you slice it.

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One of the many good reasons I will not criticize the class is that I have been in that barrel (smaller barrel than Laser). I had it easy but free trips, money, and kickbacks my *ss. Its a headache of unequaled magnitude no matter how you slice it.

Ignorance is bliss sometimes. It isnt first class flights, four star hotels, or FIFA sized checks but

I have taken some of those trips

I have written some of the checks to pay for the trips of others

I have seen money change hands for which I never was able to find line items in the annual class reports.

 

Ask not why there would be, ask why there would not!!

 

Good people expect an effort to provide reasonable compensation. We don't want our volunteers to reach into their own pockets to serve us.

We also don't want anyone to receive ANY compensation that is less than fully described in our annual reports.

 

In practice?? If a volunteer or class employee is handed a $100 bill, that money goes in the Class treasury.

Plane flights and rooms at a venue may. E part of hosts being nice to volunteers, but class employees need to properly report those items in the books

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I think a successful class should be driven/funded by the manufacturer, its the only concept that survives in the long run.

If they want to give up sell the rights and molds to the class.

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I think a successful class should be driven/funded by the manufacturer, its the only concept that survives in the long run.

 

 

 

Is 70 years of the still-thriving Merlin Rocket class "long run" enough for you, entirely member-driven and funded?

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I think a successful class should be driven/funded by the manufacturer, its the only concept that survives in the long run.

If they want to give up sell the rights and molds to the class.

 

That just won't work for a class that doesn't have a single builder. E.g. Fireball, where 1000's were home built by amatuers in its heydey, and there were (still are) several commercial builders just in the UK.

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imagine a laser class with rastegar holding the purse strings

so now you have lots of volunteers worldwide working for free to make his business a success.

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imagine a laser class with rastegar holding the purse strings

so now you have lots of volunteers worldwide working for free to make his business a success.

 

 

 

Sort of.

 

And also you have thousands of Laser sailors worldwide giving money every year to the Class Association to pay people at the class office to make Rastegar's business a success.

 

Not to mention thousands of Laser sailors giving money every year for the last few years to the Class Association to pay lawyers to defend a lawsuit from the boat's designer.

 

Laser sailors are such generous people. We really have nothing better to do with our money.

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On 9/30/2016 at 5:34 PM, Wess said:

 

I don't know about the Aero. A better Laser for sure but for lots of and large OD fleets it lacks the wide availability of cheap used boats that are still competitive at a club level like Laser has. That can only come with lots of time.

 

If I am going to spend that (cost of a new Aero) I admit I am more interested to learn something new (foiling) and see if OD fleets can be built there. Give me a UFO.

 

 

 

 

As a recreational sailor who is looking at OD boats for the first time, I'm seeing the Laser class as a shit-show. After seeing the Aero in person, I also don't see the direct comparison of the Aero to Laser. One is a modern ultra light wonder of technology and one is old heavy OD from the past. If there is a new design that replaces the Laser, in my mind, it's the RS Neo. Although I don't fully understand how Portsmouth numbers are created other than it starts with UK sailors averaging race results over a couple months, I would expect the medium weight Neo with the 6.4 rig and no vang to be close to a Laser. A roto-molded boat also takes care of the sailing school abuse and would eventually generate some used boats that don't have spongy butt prints in the deck.

As my yacht club application hasn't had any response, I'll probably just buy a $400 Sunfish and a new Intensity sail to do some urban-assault sailing. The next closest YC races Sunfish as well.

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A new product doesn't need to be very similar to its predecessor to win customers away. It has to satisfy the same basic needs and desires as the old product, but if it does so in a way that is superior it can win in the market place. The Laser was the best planing singlehander in 1971. As you say, it is now very outdated and a number of other boats give a much better experience for someone seeking an exciting singlehanded dinghy. The only things that are keeping the Laser on life support - and they are not insignificant - are the existing fleets and regatta circuits, and the availability of cheap second-hand boats.

What is urban assault sailing?

I feel a video coming on...
 

 

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

What is urban assault sailing?

My definition of "urban assault sailing" would be to drag a light boat over rock walls, through the woods between town parks and swimming only areas to access the many miles of water in Massachusetts. There are many old boat ramps that have been abandoned or blocked to motor vehicles by the DCR (fish cops). Many of them are still viable sailing spots. Some examples would be Wollaston Beach in Quincy MA, Revere Beach, Nanatasket Beach, the back side of Lake Cochituate in Framingham, the two un-named between Brandies University and I 495 and at least 3 ponds in Plymouth MA. 

Basically any way to get around the New England phenomenon of 50 boats circling the public boat ramp parking waiting for one of the 10 trailer spots available. I'm grocery shopping on a Sunday when there is a 15 MPH SSW wind and 85 degrees outside. This is the second weekend I couldn't sail and I'm loosing my mind.

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1 hour ago, Eddie_E said:

My definition of "urban assault sailing" would be to drag a light boat over rock walls, through the woods between town parks and swimming only areas to access the many miles of water in Massachusetts. There are many old boat ramps that have been abandoned or blocked to motor vehicles by the DCR (fish cops). Many of them are still viable sailing spots. Some examples would be Wollaston Beach in Quincy MA, Revere Beach, Nanatasket Beach, the back side of Lake Cochituate in Framingham, the two un-named between Brandies University and I 495 and at least 3 ponds in Plymouth MA. 

Basically any way to get around the New England phenomenon of 50 boats circling the public boat ramp parking waiting for one of the 10 trailer spots available. I'm grocery shopping on a Sunday when there is a 15 MPH SSW wind and 85 degrees outside. This is the second weekend I couldn't sail and I'm loosing my mind.

LOL. I was talking to some sailing friends the other day about how trying to launch from a public ramp in Rhode Island on a summer weekend is not worth the effort. Even if you can find a parking spot, you then have to deal with the weekend warrior ramp hogs who don't see to be able to launch or recover their motor boats without having sole use of the ramp for 30 minutes at least.

"Urban assault sailing" sounds like a good solution to that. Although a $400 Sunfish sounds like a better boat to use than a brand new $8,000 RS Aero.

 

 

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so have the ICLA shot themselves in the foot siding with Rastegar and nobody can get laser parts anywhere in the world except where the Ozzies are allowed to sell them?

( I guess that result was the court case in reality)

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For those who don't want to read the link, the judge has admitted the case should not have been dismissed and reinstated it. GS submitted a new lawsuit in July 2017 and BK joined with that case. Bottom line - we are back to the beginning with GS and BK against LP. 

My speculation is that now that LP has shown their hand in their counterclaims and defence, and the judge has ruled a bit on who owns what (GS and BK), the new lawsuit from GS will be better crafted. I go back to my view that GS and BK will prevail. In particular, we know for certain that the LP used trademarked name "Bruce Kirby", without paying license fees as required. I cannot see how LP can wriggle out of that one. The other thing I now realise that is strong about the GS/BK case is that until the ILCA changed their rule, for a boat to be a Laser, there needed to be an agreement in place with BK. There is no doubt that LP sold Lasers for a significant period that were called lasers and which were raced as class legal (including boats supplied by LP to championships) without paying any fee. The only question remains is whether BK had the right to sell that agreement to GS. If he did, which is what i believe, then LP is sunk for not paying money under the agreement. What I find strong about the GS case is that LP didn't question the right of BK to sell GS the asset until GS ended the agreement for non payment.

It's too late for the ILCA to switch sides, but their move of siding with LP made zero difference to the problems that surround supply from LP.

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On June 18, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Eddie_E said:

As a recreational sailor who is looking at OD boats for the first time, I'm seeing the Laser class as a shit show.

...

As my yacht club application hasn't had any response, I'll probably just buy a $400 Sunfish and a new Intensity sail to do some urban-assault sailing. The next closest YC races Sunfish as well.

Oh dear.

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