Otterbox

Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, IPLore said:

GS and/or their lawyers seem to have made some mistakes so far.

I counted back assuming a 6 year jurisdiction and I think they are okay.....but there are plenty of 3 year jurisdictions. I haven't heard which jurisdiction they filed the new case. Have you? 

 

If I understand correctly what Pam of Improper Course is saying at http://www.impropercourse.com/2017/11/lp-at-it-again.html the Kirby and Global Sailing cases against LP and Rastegar have been joined and the joint case is being heard in US District Court in Connecticut.

Doc+321+-+Joining+Related+Cases.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Dog Watch and @Team_GBR - Some see the glass half empty and some see it half full.  Both are valid and accurate.  I am not saying things are perfect especially re supply.  But if you just look at numbers and compare to other classes Laser has done and continues to do well. Great boat and class both for high caliber Olympic level sailors as well as for junior sailors.  Generic sails...yes GBR, I see that as a huge positive and the class look the other way attitude at the club level a great thing for access... and all.  Not saying its perfect.  But come on.  It ain't nearly dead and it ain't nearly dying (nowhere near as fast as many other classes are).  Don't know how to more fairly describe it than to say it just keeps rolling along...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks.

In June judge rejects GS's motion to amend (aka reinstate) their counterclaim...so GS files a new suit ..in October it is consolidated with the Kirby case and it is back in front of their favorite judge again,  the honorable Jeffrey Alker Meyer. http://www.ctd.uscourts.gov/biography-district-judge-jeffrey-alker-meyer

It is worth quoting JAM's ruling on GS's motion to amend

 

Quote

 

GSL's Motion to Amend

As to GSL's motion to amend its answer to add counterclaims (Doc. #298), I conclude that the motion is manifestly untimely and that GSL has not shown good cause for its late filing. The "good cause" inquiry turns on whether the moving party displayed some degree of diligence in moving to amend his or her complaint. See, e.g., Kassner v. 2nd Ave. Delicatessen Inc., 496 F.3d 229, 244 (2d Cir. 2007) (noting that "the primary consideration is whether the moving party can demonstrate diligence"). "A party fails to show good cause when the proposed amendment rests on information that the party knew, or should have known, in advance of the deadline." Scott v. Chipotle Mexican Grill, Inc., 300 F.R.D. 193, 197 (S.D.N.Y. 2014).

GSL argues that it did not attempt to bring claims for royalties earlier because, until the Court's summary judgment ruling, "it believed that the Kirby Plaintiffs were the appropriate party to do so." Doc. #298-1 at 3. But defendants asserted the standing defense—arguing that the Kirby plaintiffs had transferred their contract rights to GSL—from the start of this case. Therefore, even if GSL believed that the Kirby plaintiffs were the ones who had standing, GSL was certainly on notice in 2013 of the possibility that the Court might ultimately agree with defendants, and thus GSL could have preserved these claims by asserting them four years ago in 2013.

But even assuming that GSL was justified in waiting until after the Court ruled on whether the Kirby plaintiffs had transferred their rights to GSL, nine months elapsed between my summary judgment ruling and GSL's motion for leave to amend. GSL has not demonstrated good cause for this delay. The fact that the parties were engaged in settlement discussions does not excuse GSL's lack of diligence. See Gullo v. City of N.Y., 540 Fed. App'x 45, 47 (2d Cir. 2013) (affirming district court's denial of motion to amend complaint that was untimely filed three months after plaintiffs learned facts that warranted amendment and notwithstanding plaintiffs' claim that their delay was justified by ongoing settlement discussions and would not prejudice defendants).

Moreover, according to GSL's reply, the parties were attempting to settle the case "until at least late February of this year." Doc. #310 at 8. GSL offers no explanation for the time that elapsed between the end of settlement attempts in late February and the filing of the motion to amend the complaint almost three months later in May. Moreover, in addition to finding that GSL did not act diligently, I find that the proposed amendment would prejudice defendants in this case, largely for the reasons indicated by defendants in their opposition briefing and at oral argument. Accordingly, I will deny GSL's motion for leave to amend its answer to add counterclaims.

 

I can just visualize the judge welcoming counsel back into his court room.  GS's counsel is James Grogan

"Mr. Grogan , it is a pleasure to see you back again....again"

5a1c4fd3166e6_Jeffrey_Alker_Meyer_professor_of_Law_a-Article-201607261908.jpg.17f7aab2067e15830ddba945e60c407c.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 JAM seems like a really smart and younger judge.  So the case will get a careful and thoughtful hearing.

Frankly it is a waste of taxpayers money.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder what Scott v. Chipotle Mexican Grill was about.  Food poisoning?  The victim was too sick from E. coli and salmonella to file suit in a timely manner?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, torrid said:

I wonder what Scott v. Chipotle Mexican Grill was about.  Food poisoning?  The victim was too sick from E. coli and salmonella to file suit in a timely manner?

It was actually a class action lawsuit about whether management trainees - called "apprentices" by the employer - were exempt or non-exempt workers. The case hinged on whether the class was really a class or not, and the court decided it was not a class. Is this an omen?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tillerman said:

It was actually a class action lawsuit about whether management trainees - called "apprentices" by the employer - were exempt or non-exempt workers. The case hinged on whether the class was really a class or not, and the court decided it was not a class. Is this an omen?

LOL.  Tillerson strikes again!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LP will have to defend itself in other ways as well:

The (One Person Dinghy)  Olympic events will be reviewed according to World Sailing's Antitrust Policy.

 



 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

LP will have to defend itself in other ways as well:

The (One Person Dinghy)  Olympic events will be reviewed according to World Sailing's Antitrust Policy.

 



 

And this part of the WS Antitrust Policy may give LP some difficulties...

  1. 2.5.2  Via its contracts with Olympic Classes and their manufacturers, World Sailing monitors production quality and prices of manufacturers, in particular sole manufacturers, to ensure that the supplier(s) is satisfying demand at acceptable quality and service levels. In the event of a breach of the contracts (e.g. consistent failure by the supplier to maintain acceptable quality and service levels), World Sailing has the right to require re-tendering for the production of equipment of the Class. 

     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tillerman said:

And this part of the WS Antitrust Policy may give LP some difficulties...

  1. 2.5.2  Via its contracts with Olympic Classes and their manufacturers, World Sailing monitors production quality and prices of manufacturers, in particular sole manufacturers, to ensure that the supplier(s) is satisfying demand at acceptable quality and service levels. In the event of a breach of the contracts (e.g. consistent failure by the supplier to maintain acceptable quality and service levels), World Sailing has the right to require re-tendering for the production of equipment of the Class. 

     

There's a bit to unpack there. It infers that World Sailing (WS) has contracts with Olympic Class associations and with manufacturers of equipment for Olympic Classes. Presumably the contracts are only in regard to supply of equipment for WS events.

As far as I'm aware (which isn't saying much I guess), WS can't change who is allowed to produce Laser equipment under various licencing deals, so they'd have to work with  existing manufacturers. If a particular manufacturer is found to be in breach of their obligations, WS's can either:

  1. Source equipment from another manufacturer, or
  2. Change to another class that meets WS's rules 

Option 1 may well breech commercial licencing agreements that restrict who can supply equipment in particular geographic regions. Likely WS has no control over these agreements and any breech would very likely end up in a court somewhere. Alternatively, they could only hold events in regions where their favoured manufacturers have supply rights, but that might open an even larger can of worms and punishes 3rd parties that have nothing to do with the original complaint.

Option 2 seems to punish compliant manufacturers, so possibly not politically acceptable. It would also hurt Olympic Laser hopefuls, but that's likely a minor consideration given the changes to sailing classes in the last few Olympics.

A 3rd option is that WS may have agreements to source equipment from whichever manufacturer they wish regardless of regional licencing deals. For the sake of the Laser Class and compliant manufacturers, I hope that's the case. But there may be a few wannabe Olympic Classes that are hoping otherwise.

In the bigger picture, there is also the relationship between the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and WS. A manufacturer that is unhappy with WS may well appeal directly to the IOC, possibly affecting all Olympic Classes in the process.

Fun times ahead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My two cents.

This isn't about finding a replacement builder for Lasers to use in the Olympics, but a replacement class for the single-handed events.  I was never a fan of the Laser being an Olympic class to start with, but now I wonder what will happen to the class if it is dropped.

I don't imagine the IOC giving two shits about how WS conducts the Olympic sailing events as long as the go off without a hitch, on budget, with increased female and smaller country representation.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Snipped below from Tillerman's post in the "Huh? New Sunfish Class?" blog. Seems to me Bruce Kirby lives in Rowayton. Looks like that is a couple miles away from the new shop. You don't suppose LP knew this...

New SailLaser Center Planned for SONO district of Norwalk, Connecticut

LaserPerformance is pleased to announce it will be opening a SailLaser Center in the SONO district of Norwalk, Connecticut. The Center will reach out to the southern Connecticut community to help make sailing as easy and enjoyable as possible regardless of means or ability. Sailing lessons will be offered for all skill levels and, for more experienced sailors, rigged dinghy boats will be available for rent or seasonal lease. Summer fun activities are planned for children, while families will be invited to participate in regattas and social events. Those interested in improving the environment in their community will be encouraged to join one of our LaserPerformance Handprint initiatives to keep our water and environment sustainable. Finally, the SailLaser Center will provide maintenance services for dinghy boats, as well as offer a wide range of LaserPerformance boats, parts and accessories which can presently be viewed and purchased at www.LaserPerformance.com. The SailLaser Center will welcome the community commencing May 2018 at 10 Marshall Street, South Norwalk, CT.

 

 

 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Snipped below from Tillerman's post in the "Huh? New Sunfish Class?" blog. Seems to me Bruce Kirby lives in Rowayton. Looks like that is a couple miles away from the new shop. I wonder if LP knew this?

New SailLaser Center Planned for SONO district of Norwalk, Connecticut

LaserPerformance is pleased to announce it will be opening a SailLaser Center in the SONO district of Norwalk, Connecticut. The Center will reach out to the southern Connecticut community to help make sailing as easy and enjoyable as possible regardless of means or ability. Sailing lessons will be offered for all skill levels and, for more experienced sailors, rigged dinghy boats will be available for rent or seasonal lease. Summer fun activities are planned for children, while families will be invited to participate in regattas and social events. Those interested in improving the environment in their community will be encouraged to join one of our LaserPerformance Handprint initiatives to keep our water and environment sustainable. Finally, the SailLaser Center will provide maintenance services for dinghy boats, as well as offer a wide range of LaserPerformance boats, parts and accessories which can presently be viewed and purchased at www.LaserPerformance.com. The SailLaser Center will welcome the community commencing May 2018 at 10 Marshall Street, South Norwalk, CT.
 

 

Probably more significant that the offices of LaserPerformance and Dory Ventures are in Norwalk.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at Google maps, 10 Marshall Street is a building that is a couple blocks from the water but doesn't look too convenient for boat launching.  It does say "Maclaren" on the door.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, tillerman said:

 

Probably more significant that the offices of LaserPerformance and Dory Ventures are in Norwalk.
 

Damn. That's no fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bill4 said:

. Seems to me Bruce Kirby lives in Rowayton. Looks like that is a couple miles away from the new shop. You don't suppose LP knew this...

 

LP is headquartered in Norwalk. Rowayton is the upmarket suburb of Norwalk.

Its reasonably well known in CT that Bruce Kirby and Bill Crane are both members of the same yacht club, race Sonars against each other, and have known each other for decades. 

It is said that all business matters stop at the YC gate.

I think Rastegar also lives in Rowayton but I dont  believe that he was invited to join the club.:)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Championships like this are one of the best things about the Laser Class.

True that. I would not have raced the boat in 3 years and my rotator cuff surgery PT literally ends that date... but I am giving that some serious thought. Anybody want to gramps sit so I can go, LOL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Wess said:

True that. I would not have raced the boat in 3 years and my rotator cuff surgery PT literally ends that date... but I am giving that some serious thought. Anybody want to gramps sit so I can go, LOL.

But then there also this...

https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=event&eid=1544

at the same location as the Worlds in December 2019.

I really enjoyed the 2008 Laser Masters Worlds in 2008 at Terrigal and this is just up the coast from there.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, tillerman said:

But then there also this...

https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=event&eid=1544

at the same location as the Worlds in December 2019.

I really enjoyed the 2008 Laser Masters Worlds in 2008 at Terrigal and this is just up the coast from there.
 

What's your point?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, VWAP said:

What's your point?

Well I think @tillerman's first point is, as he wrote, regattas like the one you linked are one of the best things about the Laser class. His second point seems to be that the Aero class is growing and also hosting regatta at some pretty cool places.  Pretty reasonable and not exactly radical stuff there and it seems odd to go on tilt over it.

I am more a Laser than Aero fan but if you are going to travel, both fleets have some interesting regatta options. I happen to be more swayed by what's happening at a grass roots level and the local scene where Laser still wins big (at least for me locally and I would guess for most).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, VWAP said:

302 entries from 25 countries for a  Laser Masters Worlds, including 14 sailors over 75!

In spite of all the Blow Torch legal shenanigans, the Laser Class is thriving.

And Laser Masters sailing is probably not going to be affected by any decisions about whether the Laser is in the Olympics or not.

This is why it is such nonsense for people to talk about newer single-handed boats being "Laser killers" or "dethroning the Laser." 


 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But look at the demographics.  Yes it is a masters regattas, but there are very few apprentices.   You have a greying base of sailors with no new blood coming in.  This will kill the Laser more than a new class, lack of Olympic status, or an indifferent builder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, torrid said:

But look at the demographics.  Yes it is a masters regattas, but there are very few apprentices.   You have a greying base of sailors with no new blood coming in.  This will kill the Laser more than a new class, lack of Olympic status, or an indifferent builder.

Okay, well who’s buying Aeros?  Every fleet is suffering when it comes to young adult sailors coming in/sticking around. Sailing in general has this problem. It’s not Laser specific, which is why I agree with Tillerman. Beyond the fact that the ‘laser killer’ mentality is stupid and misguided to begin with (there is absolutely room for everyone), the argument that the laser is dying because of poor involvement outside of Youth and Masters sailing is also odd because it’s the same problem in every fleet. Aeros too.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Schnappi said:

Do I read this right? There were 30 Full rigs at CORK this year: http://www.cork.org/past-results/results2018/ocr/laser_results.htm

20 years ago there were something like 150. 

 

OK. You win. The Laser class is obviously in a death spiral. Be part of the future, not the past. Buy a Force 5.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, tillerman said:

OK. You win. The Laser class is obviously in a death spiral. Be part of the future, not the past. Buy a Force 5.

It wasn't a competition. Simply an observation that turnout at what was once a fairly major regatta in NA isn't nearly what it once was.

Still better than Laser 2 turnout though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/4/2018 at 8:54 PM, Schnappi said:

It wasn't a competition. Simply an observation that turnout at what was once a fairly major regatta in NA isn't nearly what it once was.

Still better than Laser 2 turnout though.

I invite you all to join us at the Laser District 7 Championship at Duck Island Yacht club on September 8 and 9.  

Grassroots?  I started this fleet 5 years ago, and we have a growing Thursday night fleet, have hosted some of the biggest regattas in the district, and have a good showing of young sailors in only a few years.  In fact, the winner of our summer series was a high school student.  Maybe the major regattas are not getting the participation they once saw, but I believe with a lot of hard work, the local scenes continue to grow and thrive and offer opportunities to sailors.

If you want to join me this weekend at a really cool regatta, sign up at https://yachtscoring.com/emenu.cfm?eID=5911.  Its worth the entry fee for the shirt, drinks, and food alone.  There will also be some great racing!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Benja said:

I invite you all to join us at the Laser District 7 Championship at Duck Island Yacht club on September 8 and 9.  

Grassroots?  I started this fleet 5 years ago, and we have a growing Thursday night fleet, have hosted some of the biggest regattas in the district, and have a good showing of young sailors in only a few years.  In fact, the winner of our summer series was a high school student.  Maybe the major regattas are not getting the participation they once saw, but I believe with a lot of hard work, the local scenes continue to grow and thrive and offer opportunities to sailors.

If you want to join me this weekend at a really cool regatta, sign up at https://yachtscoring.com/emenu.cfm?eID=5911.  Its worth the entry fee for the shirt, drinks, and food alone.  There will also be some great racing!

What???

Positive comments about the Laser

You must be new here

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, VWAP said:

What???

Positive comments about the Laser

You must be new here

What???

I thought it was OK to say kind things about the Laser (and good old Bruce Kirby) as long as you were mean and nasty to Global Sailing, Laser Performance, Mr. Rastegar and especially the ILCA?

Good luck to Benja and the DIYC Laser fleet and all the sailors at the Laser District 7 championship this weekend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What???

I thought it was OK to say kind things about the Laser (and good old Bruce Kirby) as long as you were mean and nasty to Global Sailing, Laser Performance, Mr. Rastegar and especially the ILCA?

Good luck to Benja and the DIYC Laser fleet and all the sailors at the Laser District 7 championship this weekend.

See this is why Anarchy needs written rules, LOL.   I thought you had to be nice to GS and BK, and were supposed to be mean to Nasty Rasty, LPE, Laser sailors, the Laser itself, and ILCA.  Not that I ever followed those rules!  :P

So yea, good luck and hats off to @Benja

Fleets live and die om sparkplug/champions like him.  A well known local (to me) used to talk about how the fleet needed to care for the folks at the bottom of the score sheet to stay strong.  I would only add class volunteers and champions like Benja to that list (and you Tiller for the Aero).  Its so easy to hate on something.  Much harder to love and grow something!  My compliments to those who do!!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Wess said:

So yea, good luck and hats off to @Benja

Fleets live and die on sparkplug/champions like him.  A well known local (to me) used to talk about how the fleet needed to care for the folks at the bottom of the score sheet to stay strong.  I would only add class volunteers and champions like Benja to that list (and you Tiller for the Aero).  Its so easy to hate on something.  Much harder to love and grow something!  My compliments to those who do!!

Hurrah for spark plugs.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, tillerman said:

What???

I thought it was OK to say kind things about the Laser (and good old Bruce Kirby) as long as you were mean and nasty to Global Sailing, Laser Performance, Mr. Rastegar and especially the ILCA?

Good luck to Benja and the DIYC Laser fleet and all the sailors at the Laser District 7 championship this weekend.

I read somewhere there was some sport of invasion going on and no more parts, sails, boats  were available for the laser. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, VWAP said:

I read somewhere there was some sport of invasion going on and no more parts, sails, boats  were available for the laser. 

FAKE NEWS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, VWAP said:

I read somewhere there was some sport of invasion going on and no more parts, sails, boats  were available for the laser. 

Several US dealers are offering Lasers and sails and other parts on their websites, and the sail numbers I see in regatta reports seem to be climbing steadily upwards.

21444.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, tillerman said:

Several US dealers are offering Lasers and sails and other parts on their websites, and the sail numbers I see in regatta reports seem to be climbing steadily upwards.

21444.jpg

Not sure what your point is. What you wrote is common knowledge among us  that are  active in the class.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I may... I think VWAP was being facetious in post 4238, and Tillerman didn’t pick it up. And it went from there. Correct?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, VWAP said:

Not sure what your point is. What you wrote is common knowledge among us  that are  active in the class.

You are right. Everybody knows...
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, tillerman said:

You are right. Everybody knows...
 

 

Where did I write  "everybody knows"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/7/2018 at 1:57 PM, tillerman said:

Several US dealers are offering Lasers and sails and other parts on their websites, and the sail numbers I see in regatta reports seem to be climbing steadily upwards.

As a curious bystander, does this mean that the supply brouhaha is over?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

As a curious bystander, does this mean that the supply brouhaha is over?

At most I encountered some minor inconveniences with re supply.  But others here do the drama lama and trolling thing much better than I so YMMV.

Hey @tillerman you are cracking me up.  Nobody told these folks that its over.  Except for the angry dude trolling LOL.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/13/2018 at 9:52 AM, Wess said:

At most I encountered some minor inconveniences with re supply.  But others here do the drama lama and trolling thing much better than I so YMMV.

Hey @tillerman you are cracking me up.  Nobody told these folks that its over.  Except for the angry dude trolling LOL.

 

deserting ship.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How could your post a photo like that?? If you had a son would you post that?? It doesn’t pass  the son test. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Laser supply chain in North America remains a complete and utter disaster.

Europe has it pretty solid, but, for sailors in North America, it is as bad as it has been in 8 years.
LP, for most of the year, had no foils, spars, sails, composite top sections, vangs, cunningham/outhaul kits or basic fittings like daggerboard friction pads.

In the previous years, LP allowed dealers to buy directly from manufacturers (and LP got a credit back against their outstanding bills/debts with those manufacturers).  That was pulled for North, Harken and Selden, and LP maintains almost no stock in the McLaren stroller warehouse in CT.

*****

The biggest dealers are able to get some product by placing huge orders and paying in full in advance.  Still, it’s a 3-6 month lead time situation at the best case.

Check out the biggest dealers sites - they are out of core, common items that Laser sailors need.
I don’t know how those guys stay in business selling Laser stuff, but, it’s not an easy racket.

If you want Laser parts for 2019 sailing, start talking to your preferred dealer now.  It can’t get much worse, but, no one I know is expecting it to get any better.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you need to "practice" more.

I can have  practice foils or practice sails delivered to my door in 3 days in any of five different options. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Eddie_E said:

I think you need to "practice" more.

I can have  practice foils or practice sails delivered to my door in 3 days in any of five different options. 

"Everything is practice." - Pele

pele.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

APS used to have a few Lasers and Sunfishes sitting on an outside rack. Eye candy for folks such as me, thinking about buying a boat. But that was several years ago. 

Last week, I was told, one has to place an order and wait several weeks. 

Composite Laser uppers seem hard to get; not that I want one (too expensive). Don't know about other legal parts

LP dealers must find it hard to run their businesses.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

The Laser supply chain in North America remains a complete and utter disaster.

 

Wrong again 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We seem to have a difference of opinion here.  Some facts might help.

Has anybody on this thread bought a new Laser in North America in the last year?

If so, did your local dealer have a Laser in stock when you were ready to buy?

If not, how long did you have to wait for the Laser?

Did anybody decide that the Laser supply situation was such a "complete and utter disaster" that you went off and bought some other boat instead?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes.  More than one 

Yes 

----

Yes but not for the reason listed 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, tillerman said:

We seem to have a difference of opinion here.  Some facts might help.

Has anybody on this thread bought a new Laser in North America in the last year?

If so, did your local dealer have a Laser in stock when you were ready to buy?

If not, how long did you have to wait for the Laser?

Did anybody decide that the Laser supply situation was such a "complete and utter disaster" that you went off and bought some other boat instead?

1. no but if someone wants to give me ~7k USD i'll be glad to test out the laser purchasing status in NA.

2. i don't think i have any local laser dealers in central nc. will investigate.

3. - 

4. no

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/13/2018 at 5:04 AM, martin.langhoff said:

As a curious bystander, does this mean that the supply brouhaha is over?

There are some retailers who are working very hard to supply the US market. I know West Coast Sailing is one of them.  I was at their shop in June and I got the low down on the situation and what they're doing to help. I can say that they are sticking their neck out to keep the class going and I'm a fan. I'll be buying a carbon upper from them and a new Hyde sail at some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the risk of starting a series of attack posts from VWap:

1. Neither of the dealerships who have supplied boats to San Antonio, Houston, Corpus, Austin, and the surrounding areas has been able to acquire stock for years now. 

2. LP sent a fleet of charter Lasers to the Nationals in Houston and did not coordinate that effort with the Houston dealer.

3. LP set up a retail truck at Houston Yacht Club (5 miles from the Houston dealer’s Shop) and sold Carbon spars, new sails, any parts anyone wanted, and even offered to make post Regatta deals on the charter boats. ( note: the Fleet’s  Next stop was the youth world’s in Corpus and the boats purchased were for delivery AFTER that event) 

4. LP sold at least five boats to parents of Clear Lake Junior sailors BEFORE offering post regatta charter boats to the Houston Dealer.

5. AFTER the Youth Worlds were complete and everyone who found out LP was selling parts and boats from their truck had had a chance to make a purchase, LP offered to supply the Houston dealer with some parts and boats. (For those unfamiliar with the North American Boat business, sales come nearly to a stop around July 4 and do not pick up again until energized by midwinter sales and spring fitting out season. Stocking the shelves in August is not something North American boat dealers have EVER done. Manufacturers hold dealer shows in the fall, offer HUGE discounts to anyone who will take delivery before January or even March and focus on building boats for the spring rush.)

The Houston dealer declined to load its shelves and storerooms with product it could not reasonably expect to sell until spring. 

6. The sponsoring company of Dinghy Anarchy is doing everything it can manage to get its products recognized by North American sailors.  There is a trailer of their charter boats curently touring Texas regattas. The Houston dealer is sending as many as three of its employees with personal boats to sail and a dozen “try it out” charter boats to at least four events in Texas this fall. 

7. My opinion:

I believe the well financed supportive local dealer is any sailing fleet’s Very best friend. It is certainly possible to have a fleet without that special dealer but.....

It is soooooo very much easier to prosper when there is somebody spending money on organization and promotion and with Lasers and other similar boats a huge percentage of the new blood has always been those who bought a boat at the dealer and were subsequently introduced to the fleet and racing. 

When Rod Malone’s Sail and Ski Center in Austin celebrated the sale of its 500th Laser we only had about 100 on the grounds at Austin Yacht Club. (In fact, our fleet has survived the last ten years largely by finding old Sail and Ski Lasers stored in various garages and boat houses. I just found a 1984 unused boat for my own use. ) It takes a HUGE number of boats to maintain a forty  boat fleet of moderately active sailors that averages 15 to 20 boats per event. 

My concern is the lack of brand new equipment from the local dealer will cause our local fleets to lose critical mass. Our club is generally  more active than it has been in years. Our junior program is more active and in greater numbers than ever. Our keelboat fleets are growing. Because there are boats available and enthusiastic fleet member organizers, our J-80, Ensign, and Pearson 26 fleets are each putting over ten boats on the starting line every time the RC sets a course. 

Our radio control night is booming.

150 new people move to the Austin area EVERY DAY!!! They have jobs and they need to recreate. New people come to our club every week. 

but we do not have anyone in town selling new Lasers or Sunfish and the necessary parts and sails. 

So... in an effort to have a vibrant local Singlehanded game in 2020 I am working to ADD  an AERO fleet to our club’s sailboat racing options. I still hope to host at least another fourteen so I can establish, “Hosting fifty consecutive years of a one design regatta” as my Lou Gehrig /Cal Ripken sort of longevity standard for sailing. 

I have no idea yet whether the AERO fleet is going to achieve sufficient participation to satiate my personal lust for big fleet racing. I am, however, reasonably confident we will have lots of 20 boat AERO regattas in Texas Next year. I would take the bet, “there will be at least one 30 boat AERO event in Texas in 2018.”

if Lasers still had active well supplied Texas dealers , there absolutely would not be an AERO fleet starting this rapidly.

but... As the AERO is absolutely a different animal than the Laser and interesting in its own way, the AERO game is probably going to happen in Texas Whether Lasers become available again or not. 

Summary: I think any strong sailing fleet helps all other sailing fleets. When any fleet dies, all sailing loses something. I hope in ten years we have fleets of 100 Lasers, Fleets of 100 Radials, Fleets of 100 AEROs, and even fleets of Finns. 

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry for slow response, been on a vacation for the last two weeks!

--
Without getting political or throwing too much gas on the fire:

The Laser parts supply chain was again, for 2018....  really really difficult to manage.


Sails - generally LP had no stock this year for North America. I work closely with the LP team in CT to buy 50-100 sails at a time, which allows us to keep stock in our dealership.  This is a long buying process, but, with a lot of patience, it does work for us, eventually...
It's my understanding that most of the smaller dealers are unable to get supply of many/any Laser sails.

Spars - We buy carbon top sections 50 at a time direct from the manufacturer with an agreement with LP.  This is not what most dealers want to do, and I believe only 3 or 4 dealers in North America had composite tops this summer.  

Aluminum booms/lowers/top sections - we've been unable to source them. I am working on an order for a bunch of them with LP, but it's 3-4 months of lead time I think.
I don't know if any of the smaller dealers were able to get any.

Parts/Blades/etc - Generally unavailable this year without a long lead time. We did get a LARGE order of items in mid July this year, which was nice.  But, all that stuff vanished in a few weeks from pent up demand. LP has trouble managing all the small SKUs, they are just understaffed in CT. 

 

I believe the situation is different in the UK, but, it's a fight here in North America for sure.
I think the guys at LP North America are trying. I don't always know exactly *why* it's so hard to get the basics... but, I don't own LP,  so, I don't complain about it that much.

It is what it is.
Myself and my staff work pretty damn hard to get class legal Laser parts, sails, spars, hardware, etc.  

Is it better than 2008/2009?  Marginally...
Is it better than the last 2-3 years?  Nope, not in North America.

 

WCB - thanks for the kind words!

--

VWAP - Assume you're dealing with Andy and his team.  If so, they work pretty hard to get parts for the season down there. Your experience with them as a source is, however, not giving you good information on the state of the supply chain for the majority of North American Laser sailors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WestCoast said:

Sorry for slow response, been on a vacation for the last two weeks!

--
Without getting political or throwing too much gas on the fire:

The Laser parts supply chain was again, for 2018....  really really difficult to manage.


Sails - generally LP had no stock this year for North America. I work closely with the LP team in CT to buy 50-100 sails at a time, which allows us to keep stock in our dealership.  This is a long buying process, but, with a lot of patience, it does work for us, eventually...
It's my understanding that most of the smaller dealers are unable to get supply of many/any Laser sails.

Spars - We buy carbon top sections 50 at a time direct from the manufacturer with an agreement with LP.  This is not what most dealers want to do, and I believe only 3 or 4 dealers in North America had composite tops this summer.  

Aluminum booms/lowers/top sections - we've been unable to source them. I am working on an order for a bunch of them with LP, but it's 3-4 months of lead time I think.
I don't know if any of the smaller dealers were able to get any.

Parts/Blades/etc - Generally unavailable this year without a long lead time. We did get a LARGE order of items in mid July this year, which was nice.  But, all that stuff vanished in a few weeks from pent up demand. LP has trouble managing all the small SKUs, they are just understaffed in CT. 

 

I believe the situation is different in the UK, but, it's a fight here in North America for sure.
I think the guys at LP North America are trying. I don't always know exactly *why* it's so hard to get the basics... but, I don't own LP,  so, I don't complain about it that much.

It is what it is.
Myself and my staff work pretty damn hard to get class legal Laser parts, sails, spars, hardware, etc.  

Is it better than 2008/2009?  Marginally...
Is it better than the last 2-3 years?  Nope, not in North America.

 

WCB - thanks for the kind words!

--

VWAP - Assume you're dealing with Andy and his team.  If so, they work pretty hard to get parts for the season down there. Your experience with them as a source is, however, not giving you good information on the state of the supply chain for the majority of North American Laser sailors.

Actually I keep a boat, boats  at my other home in Northern ca and buy from you also. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 8:48 AM, tillerman said:

We seem to have a difference of opinion here.  Some facts might help.

Has anybody on this thread bought a new Laser in North America in the last year?

If so, did your local dealer have a Laser in stock when you were ready to buy?

If not, how long did you have to wait for the Laser?

Did anybody decide that the Laser supply situation was such a "complete and utter disaster" that you went off and bought some other boat instead?

Data point on a centerboard.

I ordered a new centerboard from APS back in the Fall of 2017. I want to say it was at boat show time??? APS kept me in the loop with the 'backordered' status and it did finally show up this past Spring. My old board is a little rough but still serviceable so really was not a big deal in this case. I will say it's a really nice board so whoever is making them is doing a nice job.

I guess I should replace the old build style rudder at some point as well???

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

At the risk of starting a series of attack posts from VWap:

1. Neither of the dealerships who have supplied boats to San Antonio, Houston, Corpus, Austin, and the surrounding areas has been able to acquire stock for years now. 

2. LP sent a fleet of charter Lasers to the Nationals in Houston and did not coordinate that effort with the Houston dealer.

3. LP set up a retail truck at Houston Yacht Club (5 miles from the Houston dealer’s Shop) and sold Carbon spars, new sails, any parts anyone wanted, and even offered to make post Regatta deals on the charter boats. ( note: the Fleet’s  Next stop was the youth world’s in Corpus and the boats purchased were for delivery AFTER that event) 

4. LP sold at least five boats to parents of Clear Lake Junior sailors BEFORE offering post regatta charter boats to the Houston Dealer.

5. AFTER the Youth Worlds were complete and everyone who found out LP was selling parts and boats from their truck had had a chance to make a purchase, LP offered to supply the Houston dealer with some parts and boats. (For those unfamiliar with the North American Boat business, sales come nearly to a stop around July 4 and do not pick up again until energized by midwinter sales and spring fitting out season. Stocking the shelves in August is not something North American boat dealers have EVER done. Manufacturers hold dealer shows in the fall, offer HUGE discounts to anyone who will take delivery before January or even March and focus on building boats for the spring rush.)

The Houston dealer declined to load its shelves and storerooms with product it could not reasonably expect to sell until spring. 

6. The sponsoring company of Dinghy Anarchy is doing everything it can manage to get its products recognized by North American sailors.  There is a trailer of their charter boats curently touring Texas regattas. The Houston dealer is sending as many as three of its employees with personal boats to sail and a dozen “try it out” charter boats to at least four events in Texas this fall. 

7. My opinion:

I believe the well financed supportive local dealer is any sailing fleet’s Very best friend. It is certainly possible to have a fleet without that special dealer but.....

It is soooooo very much easier to prosper when there is somebody spending money on organization and promotion and with Lasers and other similar boats a huge percentage of the new blood has always been those who bought a boat at the dealer and were subsequently introduced to the fleet and racing. 

When Rod Malone’s Sail and Ski Center in Austin celebrated the sale of its 500th Laser we only had about 100 on the grounds at Austin Yacht Club. (In fact, our fleet has survived the last ten years largely by finding old Sail and Ski Lasers stored in various garages and boat houses. I just found a 1984 unused boat for my own use. ) It takes a HUGE number of boats to maintain a forty  boat fleet of moderately active sailors that averages 15 to 20 boats per event. 

My concern is the lack of brand new equipment from the local dealer will cause our local fleets to lose critical mass. Our club is generally  more active than it has been in years. Our junior program is more active and in greater numbers than ever. Our keelboat fleets are growing. Because there are boats available and enthusiastic fleet member organizers, our J-80, Ensign, and Pearson 26 fleets are each putting over ten boats on the starting line every time the RC sets a course. 

Our radio control night is booming.

150 new people move to the Austin area EVERY DAY!!! They have jobs and they need to recreate. New people come to our club every week. 

but we do not have anyone in town selling new Lasers or Sunfish and the necessary parts and sails. 

So... in an effort to have a vibrant local Singlehanded game in 2020 I am working to ADD  an AERO fleet to our club’s sailboat racing options. I still hope to host at least another fourteen so I can establish, “Hosting fifty consecutive years of a one design regatta” as my Lou Gehrig /Cal Ripken sort of longevity standard for sailing. 

I have no idea yet whether the AERO fleet is going to achieve sufficient participation to satiate my personal lust for big fleet racing. I am, however, reasonably confident we will have lots of 20 boat AERO regattas in Texas Next year. I would take the bet, “there will be at least one 30 boat AERO event in Texas in 2018.”

if Lasers still had active well supplied Texas dealers , there absolutely would not be an AERO fleet starting this rapidly.

but... As the AERO is absolutely a different animal than the Laser and interesting in its own way, the AERO game is probably going to happen in Texas Whether Lasers become available again or not. 

Summary: I think any strong sailing fleet helps all other sailing fleets. When any fleet dies, all sailing loses something. I hope in ten years we have fleets of 100 Lasers, Fleets of 100 Radials, Fleets of 100 AEROs, and even fleets of Finns. 

 

 

Gouv,

I don't think anybody would disagree that customer service is paramount and ideally we'd all start looking at the Aero but there are some major hurdles to overcome. The Aero is nice but it's so new that there are few used ones and even they are pretty expensive for now.  In our case, we have forty three Lasers in our storage area and I would say that 35 of those owners would have no interest in selling their $1-3k boats to spend $7k on a new Aero so it would decimate our fleet if we were to force the issue on a swap.  I would say that for those 35 people, or more, they have no need for Laser parts on a regular basis so none of this concerns them with slow supply.  The few that do travel and do need parts, know which retailers to go to and what to do.  We happen to have a good history with West Coast Sailing so we're lucky in that respect that they are the ones working so hard to supply the class, it makes it easy on our fleet.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, VWAP said:

Actually I keep a boat, boats  at my other home in Northern ca and buy from you also. 

I am glad to hear we are keeping you on the water where you don't know there are supply chain problems, this is ideal.

In fact, WCB is saying similar too. A lot of customers have no idea what's going on behind the curtain. That's part of our job as a dealer, to do the dirty work so folks can go sailing.
 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"

5 hours ago, WestCoast said:

 where you don't know there are supply chain problems,
 

Where did I write that?

Of course there is an unfortunate supply issue 

It is unfortunate a few irrelevant people are constantly trying to damage a vibrant class.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@WCB 

i seriously doubt there is a soul contributing to this thread who honestly disagrees with my perceptions or the reasoning behind my effort to establish an AERO fleet in Texas and at my home club.

For whatever reasons LP has chosen not to support the old Sunfish / Laser dealer network and it is not doing a competent job of supplying the North American Singlehanded Sailing game.

The lack of marketed and available equipment is already making it extremely difficult, at least in Texas, to keep our game vibrant.

I care a lot about Sailboat racing. I can guarantee no individual has spent a larger percentage of his income on the organization and promotion of Laser Sailing than I have .  I continue to do that because I know how to make the game happen and I feel obligated to do so. I last served on Sunfish /Laser Race Committee just five days ago. 

I repaired a kid’s Laser last week (gratis) and rigged a woman's, new to her, sunfish today. 

But...  

Why the AERO?? I do not see any other available options that has ANY chance of rescuing our game.

I believe, if LP continues to control the supply  and continues to fail to serve our sailors, we will need another fleet into which we can jump sometime after 2020.

We need 10,000 of some sort of singlehanded Sailboat that are in RACE READY CONDITION. We need new ones. We need parts at dealerships. We need used ones. We need fleet captains. We need Regatta schedulers. We have some SERIOUS WORK to complete. 

The 100,000 Laser Hulls currently in NA are either worn out or being sought after to be used up by those of us who are scrambling to keep our game going. 

I personally found, refurbished, and put at least a dozen ready to sail Lasers under People this year. The Dallas fleet has found about a dozen more. 

WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF WAYS TO KEEP OUR SAILORS ON TOP QUALITY LASERS!!!! 

Our Sunfish sailors are having the same problem!!!! 

We put at least 20 Sunfish on the course EVERY Wednesday all summer and lots of our sailors are annoyed they cannot replace their old worn out  toys. 

I think the AERO is a reasonable option for both Sunfish and Laser Sailors. 

If I do not do my job and build a fleet, I fear we will be looking back from 2022 and complaining about the fact I knew I had a job to do and I failed to do it. . 

If you have a better solution than starting all over again in an entirely new boat  offer your solutions. 

All I want to do is show up at the lake and find a great fleet. 

1 hour ago, VWAP said:

"

Where did I write that?

Of course there is an unfortunate supply issue 

It is unfortunate a few irrelevant people are constantly trying to damage a vibrant class.

@VWAP Who is doing any such thing?

That post is entirely made up garbage!! 

Seriously, I have no idea what demons drive your behavior in these forums but your snide remarks and personal attacks contribute absolutely nothing to either these forums or the game of sailing. 

It certainly would be wonderful if you could find a way to focus your energy and efforts on building the game and friendships with the other participants. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was once in a Laser dealer looking for parts when the dealer flat out told me to sell my Laser and buy an RS Aero.  I'm not really blaming him given the level of support dealers are getting from LP.  And no, he didn't have what I was looking for.

The sad truth is after choosing to put career over sailing 15 years ago, I moved to a place without decent nearby sailing.  Sailing just isn't the passion it once was for me.  If it were, I sure I would have followed the dealer's advice and bought that RS Aero by now.  I've mostly hung on to my Laser out of nostalgia.

All these years later, I'm not sure I made the right choice.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be interesting to see some data about new boat sales in North America, Europe, etc. for Laser, Sunfish, Aero, Melges 14 and D-Zero for the past few years. I suspect the builders / dealers would hold these data pretty close but seeing some hard facts may help the "discussion". As many have stated, there is room for several good designs so this isn't about one class or the other.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, torrid said:

I was once in a Laser dealer looking for parts when the dealer flat out told me to sell my Laser and buy an RS Aero.  I'm not really blaming him given the level of support dealers are getting from LP.  And no, he didn't have what I was looking for.

The sad truth is after choosing to put career over sailing 15 years ago, I moved to a place without decent nearby sailing.  Sailing just isn't the passion it once was for me.  If it were, I sure I would have followed the dealer's advice and bought that RS Aero by now.  I've mostly hung on to my Laser out of nostalgia.

All these years later, I'm not sure I made the right choice.

Wow you sound depressed Dude. Seriously reading between the lines it sounds like your 'career' is sucking and brining you down. I am depressed just reading your post.

It does not have to be sailing but hopefully you are passionate about something. Family, fishing, golf, watching your favorite sports team, whatever it does not matter just something. Well besides 'gamming', your cell phone or social media that is!

God Bless

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

All I want to do is show up at the lake and find a great fleet. 

Even though i'm not in or related to the Texas Laser scene, i definitely respect the hustle. We work very hard in central NC to get people on the water. I try to promote regattas and social sailing days, sending weekly correspondence to try to get people involved and committed. Also I try to help plan regatta travel and lodging for interested sailors. Surprisingly, we get very little laser participation during the summer. At most we'll get 5-7 lasers on the water. During our winter series we'll get somewhere between 10-16 boats every race day. On the coast the numbers are better. That's not to say we haven't had some success. We had 13 lasers at our big Governor's Cup Regatta , which was over 4x the number that we had last year. Anyways, as someone who does put in a bit of effort trying to rally people on to the water, I respect the effort you put in because it really takes a lot to keep a fleet active.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

Anyways, as someone who does put in a bit of effort trying to rally people on to the water, I respect the effort you put in because it really takes a lot to keep a fleet active.

It sure does, well said!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

World Sailing is now officially evaluating boats to replace the Laser in the Olympics:

http://www.sailing.org/news/87980.php#.W7TP4i-ZPVv

interesting. looks like the laser is one of the boats being considered to replace the laser. talk about a plot twist!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When are they going to make a decision?

I need to know whether I should be training in my RS Aero or my Laser for Paris 2024. 
 

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We should have a new Olympic dinghy selection thread so we don't get this thread derailed too far from the important discussion of Kirby v Rastegar, et al.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, tillerman said:

When are they going to make a decision?

I need to know whether I should be training in my RS Aero or my Laser for Paris 2024. 
 

 

Me too! :lol:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

We should have a new Olympic dinghy selection thread so we don't get this thread derailed too far from the important discussion of Kirby v Rastegar, et al.

LOL, there is one if you have not seen it yet.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/27/2016 at 2:03 AM, Gantt said:

_________________________________________________________

 

Are the 2011 ILCA statements true or false?

IPLore puts forward the notion that the statements I claim to be false are true. The original statements can be found here: http://www.laserinternational.org/info/2011rulechangesvotingended23rdseptember2011

 

Patents

ILCA statement: "We also took legal advice. The above rule changes were deemed the only possible solution in order to promote the uninterrupted supply of class legal Laser boats and to maintain ILCA in its current set-up. The lawyers also informed us that the Kirby design patents had in fact expired."

 

IPLore wrote:

 

 
The ILCA statement explicitly says "the Kirby design patents had in fact expired." It refers to actual patents. Which. Have. Expired. There were no patents for the one design Laser sailboat aka Kirby's sailboat. Jeff and Heini might have been just restating what they were told - apparently the legal advisers made the original statement - however never the less, this statement can only be true if the actual patents referred to existed.
 
I am satisfied that the above ILCA statement is false.
 
ILCA is a party to Kirby Agreements
ILCA Statement: "In addition, a builder also needs a building agreement from Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc. This provision is mostly historical. The rule was instituted at a time when Bruce Kirby held certain design rights. The ILCA is not a party to any of these “Kirby” agreements."
 
I

With the above, IPLore shows a weak understanding of the what "party" means in contract law, also a just as weak understanding of what a 'dependant contract' is.

 
Here is the exact clause which makes the Builder's License dependent on the ISAF Agreements:
"9.2 Licensee agrees to comply with and be bound by each of the terms and conditions of the IYRU Agreement to the same extent as if the Licensee was a party thereto."
This can be found in the builder's lisence on page 111 of the following PDF: https://www.docdroid.net/J1xCef9/kirby-first-amended-complaint-final1-with-appendices.pdf.html
 
Clause 9.2 above depends on the ISAF Agreement to make sense both legally and logically. The Builder's License Agreement is dependent on the ISAF Agreement.
 
Also for IPLore to be right, we must also believe his narrow definition of party to only mean signatory.
 
In law, the definition is far broader, with the term party referring to a recipient of a benefit of a contract or having gained certain rights or privileges - and there are additional legal uses.
 
Here's a clause from the ISAF Agreement:
 
 
It's a good clause to cite as it shows a direct relationship between the builders and the ILCA because of the builder's contract and the ISAF Agreement. The above clause refers to services performed by the ILCA to the builders, and it is aligned with another clause where builders are required to furnish a report to the ILCA. The two agreements bind the builders and the ILCA together in every way a single contract would as if they were signitories.
 
Also included:
  • The ILCA is a beneficiary of the builder's license agreements, because it requires builder's to make payments to the ILCA.
  • The ILCA has the right under the Builder's License Agreements to conduct inspections at builder's premises.
  • The builder's have obligations to the ILCA, for example are required to furnish reports to the ILCA.

On top of that, we know that there are agreements between Kirby and PSA and PSJ - which were current as of the end of 2011.

 

The ILCA said in 2011: "The ILCA is not a party to any of these “Kirby” agreements." In consideration to "any", the agreements with PSA and PSJ must be included.

 

Further, practical aspects of these contracts (eg: payments) were administered on behalf of the ILCA by Jeff Martin continuously from the time he signed the ISAF Agreement, until the above statements were made in 2011.

 

I am satisfied that the above ILCA statement is false.

 

_________________________________________________________

 

Why bother talking about this?

 

The fundamental rule change was in part based on these incorrect understandings put forward by Jeff Martin and Heini Wellmann in 2011.

These findings may expand options for the ILCA in a positive way - options that may no longer be limited to waiting for a court's ruling.

Does anyone remember this guy :)?  aka "Smart like Lawnmower"

According to him, the ILCA were at great risk in court, Kirby still owned the rights and LP was going to lose in court.   Boy did he get that call wrong. He was way out on the left and the breeze went 90 degrees to the right.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Does anyone remember this guy :)?  aka "Smart like Lawnmower"

According to him, the ILCA were at great risk in court, Kirby still owned the rights and LP was going to lose in court.   Boy did he get that call wrong. He was way out on the left and the breeze went 90 degrees to the right.

Lot's still going on, court rulings that have not been discussed on here and more hearings to come. Unless I am only hearing one sided wishful thinking, I believe the courts now recognises the sale of kirby's rights and that payment by the builders is due under the contracts. If that is correct, we know that LP has not paid anything to the new rights holder and I believe there is a case coming to court soon to address this point. There is also a case that suggests that Rastegar has illegally moved the trademark rights to an offshore company and as such, is also in breach of contract. My informant seems very confident that the end game will be new builders and with LP out within a year.

There's a fair amount about this on Facebook as people have been discussing the olympic single handed class selection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Lot's still going on, court rulings that have not been discussed on here and more hearings to come. Unless I am only hearing one sided wishful thinking, I believe the courts now recognises the sale of kirby's rights and that payment by the builders is due under the contracts. If that is correct, we know that LP has not paid anything to the new rights holder and I believe there is a case coming to court soon to address this point. There is also a case that suggests that Rastegar has illegally moved the trademark rights to an offshore company and as such, is also in breach of contract. My informant seems very confident that the end game will be new builders and with LP out within a year.

There's a fair amount about this on Facebook as people have been discussing the olympic single handed class selection.

A Class. 

You are right that the judge has given GSL leave to file amended claims. I have been a bit cursory in my summaries elsewhere.

However:

1. Gannt argued that the sale from Kirby to GSL was not valid.

2. He argued that since it was not valid, then GSL's notice to LP terminating the contract was invalid and that Kirby was the right party to bring suit.

3. That ILCA had made a terrible mistake and exposed themselves to a serious law suit.

The judge has ruled that Kirby has no standing and he has dismissed the claims vs ILCA. Gannt was wrong on all counts and some of his logic was pretty absurd along the way.

Most of "the sensible discussion" on the topic over the years thought that this would eventually boil down to a contact dispute between GSL and LP.  None of us wanted to forecast who would win that dispute.

I argued that the ILCA had taken the right stance. The parties should dispute their contracts in court and not expect ILCA to get involved in trying to enforce either parties contract.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Point taken regarding Gannt, but with hindsight, I would suggest that ILCA did the wrong thing. If they had forced LP to toe the line rather than concede to them, we probably wouldn't be looking at the situation we now see where the Laser might get replaced as the olympic single hander. You might have been correct that ILCA should not have got in the way of what was basically a commercial dispute, but the ramifications of their actions might come back to haunt them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have some more information available than we did before due to the rulings along the way and the amended claims.

I still think it is too early to forecast the outcome of the contractual dispute 

I think your informant might be wishful thinking if he is saying the court recognizes that LP owes money to GSL under contract. There has certainly not been a ruling in that direction.

I think that it is possible to discern some hurdles that GSL will have to overcome to demonstrate a breach of contract .  GSL is purported to have terminated the contract with LP. How do they overcome that?  Its possible but the odds are not in their favor.....and GPL's lawyers have been rebuked for doing a lousy job previously.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anything about the current state of the case linkable?  It seemed to go dark after the court ruled Kirby didn't have standing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Point taken regarding Gannt, but with hindsight, I would suggest that ILCA did the wrong thing. If they had forced LP to toe the line rather than concede to them, we probably wouldn't be looking at the situation we now see where the Laser might get replaced as the olympic single hander. You might have been correct that ILCA should not have got in the way of what was basically a commercial dispute, but the ramifications of their actions might come back to haunt them.

This is something where we have a different opinion. (with the utmost respect)

Now, more than ever, I truly believe that the ILCA did exactly the right thing.

If the ILCA had acceded to GSL's demands that the ILCA seek to prevent LP from supplying Lasers to European Laser buyers then I think there would have been three bad outcomes:

1. The ILCA would have exposed themselves to a really difficult lawsuit from LP for tortuous interference. Based on what we now know LP would have had a strong case. The ILCA has no legal right to tell LP to stop building Lasers. The Class rules do not have standing under the law and there were several contracts which the Class has to abide by.

2. It would have created chaos for Lasers in Europe. Where could customers buy Lasers from?

3. World Sailing would be looking at a class where there was an interruption of supply caused by internal fighting between the builders .  This would have been a death knell in any review of single handers.

The ILCA did the right thing by not telling either side to toe the line.  They asked both sides to try and resolve the matter amicably. When they could not, they let them go to court which is the right place for a contract dispute. The ILCA are NOT the right guys to try and resolve a contract dispute.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites