Otterbox

Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

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3 hours ago, bill4 said:

From the link Tillerman provided on Saturday, here are a few Q's and A's from the ILCA:

"Q: Will boats from the newly-named builders be sold under the LASER brand?

A: No. In order to avoid trademark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name. ILCA and the current approved builders are finalizing the intellectual property details for the new brand, including fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) licensing rules. ILCA expects to announce the new brand name in the next four weeks.

Q: If the name of the boat changes, what will happen to my Laser? Will it still be legal to race?

A: All current, class-legal Lasers are and will remain ILCA class-legal. The proposed change simply changes the brand name to avoid trademark complications. The new system would allow class-legal Lasers (those with World Sailing Plaques) to participate in any ILCA event along with the new, alternately branded boats. After all, it’s the boat that matters, not the brand!

Q: How can the Laser stay in the Olympics if the name of the boat changes?

A: The name of the Olympic events that include the Laser are the “Men’s and Women’s One-Person Dinghy,” and the name of the boat is irrelevant to the Olympics. Like ILCA and World Sailing, the International Olympic Committee cares about events, athletes and equipment, not brands.

Q: Is World Sailing aware of these changes?

A: Yes. ILCA has kept World Sailing fully informed during this process and we continue to work in close cooperation with the governing body of our sport."

So, it appears they have pretty much decided already to go with 4. 

I think #4 is the most likely option.  However do not confuse the builders with the class association.

Remember that in Japan, Australia and NZ, the boat will still be called the Laser and can still use the Laser logo and trademark. The boats built in Europe and North America prior to the termination of Laser performance are still entitled to be called Lasers. The International Class Association still represents all of those owners and , I would argue, would have a strong case to claim a "fair use" or "functional use" of the word Laser in their name.  For sure I think they will be able to use the name copiously and conspicuously in their website and class communications.

Boats from any newly appointed builder in NA and Europe will not be able to use the name without permission from LP(or actually from Vellum a separate offshore company owned by Rasty) and that is what the FAQ refers to.

I  think the ILCA come across as generally sensible people who will probably opt for a variation of option 4 because it reduces the potential for  litigation.....although based on past history LP will probably sue anyway.

One reason for ILCA not to wait until end of August to start this process is that they 5 months to transition to a well publicized new name.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

I think #4 is the most likely option.  However do not confuse the builders with the class association.

Remember that in Japan, Australia and NZ, the boat will still be called the Laser and can still use the Laser logo and trademark.


One of ILCA FAQs says, "In order to avoid trademark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name." 

By current ILCA-approved builders, don't they mean PSA and PSJ? It sounds to me as if they plan to use the new name in Japan, Australia and NZ too.

I don't see why they would have to do that, but I am guessing it makes things a lot less confusing for all concerned if all the new ILCA approved dinghies have the same name all over the world.

 

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On 4/8/2019 at 12:59 PM, Gouvernail said:

Nobody cares more about Laser sailing than Tracy and I am certain Tracy HAS  spent a ton of time and effort considering what is best and is doing EXACTLY what he believes is best. 

I am also certain there will be a ton of challenges and questions asked. Because I am able to formulate a bunch of questions and describe arguments suggesting the ILCA officers have no power to do as they are doing, I am concerned.

Please read my comments as you would read feedback if someone who cares were to look over a set of Sailing Instructions you had written for a regatta. It is always a helpful friendly gesture to let somebody know,  “You shouldn’t include this. This can be re-phrased. You left out this. This instruction is redundant.”

i have found no documents which make it clear to me our officers may take the actions they have taken or those actions they have suggested they are about to take. 

I am concerned the class executives are about to take action for which they have no authority. 

I am concerned they will find themselves in a very bad position. 

Finally:

**Practicality may say, no one can stop them and no one even wants to stop them.

*** By taking actions for which they are given no power by the ILCA Constitution, they  may be operating so far outside their authority as ILCA officers whatever “ILCA Officer Liability Policy” exists may not cover their actions. 

 

***”Because it is the right thing to do”  is often not sufficient justification. 

 

I am concerned. 

 

 

you need to check on what kind of organization it is and under whose jurisdiction

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Thanks VWAP    Look at the options for single handed racers in the US.... Haven't done the homework... but from the links above it seems that with respect to participation Lasers are on par with A cats and probably Finns   Followed by  a second tier of Hobie 14s, and 17s and Sunfish and I guess the Moth brings up the rear with 10 or so boats.  

I am surprised that the numbers are so close.... and it is just Hard to be impressed with 50 to 60 boat turnouts.... when J70s get those kinds of numbers. 

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2 hours ago, Tcatman said:

Thanks VWAP    Look at the options for single handed racers in the US.... Haven't done the homework... but from the links above it seems that with respect to participation Lasers are on par with A cats and probably Finns   Followed by  a second tier of Hobie 14s, and 17s and Sunfish and I guess the Moth brings up the rear with 10 or so boats.  

I am surprised that the numbers are so close.... and it is just Hard to be impressed with 50 to 60 boat turnouts.... when J70s get those kinds of numbers. 

 Not sure what your point is comparing the Laser to dissimilar boats? 

It appears you do not, never have sailed a laser

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The main advantage of the Laser is not the number of boats sailing in a national championship, but that you can find a fleet of them in just about any location in the country.

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43 minutes ago, torrid said:

The main advantage of the Laser is not the number of boats sailing in a national championship, but that you can find a fleet of them in just about any location in the country.

You are correct. Unfortunately ongoing false information is being spread about the demise of the current class,  of what is actually  going on including false information concerning availability of parts and boats by a few people  

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Fake Laser news.

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I get it, not everybody likes the Laser.  The boat does have its faults, and the class drama of the last years (decade actually) I'm sure turns many people off.  However, it is still the most commonly raced sailboat.

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1 hour ago, torrid said:

The main advantage of the Laser is not the number of boats sailing in a national championship, but that you can find a fleet of them in just about any location in the country.

OK....but most of the time, class health is compared by looking at NA participation...  (see the reports by Roger Jolley).   My surprise was how tepid the Laser class support for championships is....  In the context of upset at the international level including olympics...  .... the rank and file are not going to give a damn... OR pay dues... Or much care what you call the local class they sail in.

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18 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

 

I see you quoted me

After you wrote what is below responding to Emilio, someone who is actually active in the class in a positive way,   I no longer read any of your nonsense.

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/206926-laser-c6-rig-from-the-front-page/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-6525460

 

On 2/27/2019 at 11:28 PM, Emilio Castelli said:

Don't know where this is coming from but I think you should apologize.

E

I think you should go fuck yourself!! 

I am sick and tired of assholes who deliberately twist the writings or speech of  others to suit their need to make those others look bad. 

You had to maliciously edit my post to quote it in such a manner as you did. 

If you want to get your rocks  off by pulling shit like that, invent a sock puppet and go play your games in Political Anarchy where that sort of behavior is tolerated and perhaps even encouraged. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Tcatman said:

OK....but most of the time, class health is compared by looking at NA participation...  (see the reports by Roger Jolley).   My surprise was how tepid the Laser class support for championships is....  In the context of upset at the international level including olympics...  .... the rank and file are not going to give a damn... OR pay dues... Or much care what you call the local class they sail in.

Lasers appeal to a very broad range of sailor.  Only a very small fraction would be interested in traveling across the country to sail in a major regatta.

Finn is a different beast, only really sailed by advanced sailors.  A larger chunk of them would want to go to something like a national championship.

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19 minutes ago, Tcatman said:

OK....but most of the time, class health is compared by looking at NA participation...  (see the reports by Roger Jolley). 

 

Tcatman I think you may be the only person on the planet who thinks worldwide class health is accurately depicted by roger jolley reports.  

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 

Tcatman I think you may be the only person on the planet who thinks worldwide class health is accurately depicted by roger jolley reports.  

 

 

 

I like data... actual measurements... It beats anecdotes and blow hard marketing bullshit..   Just one measure of class health.... And its hard data.....and data that is public.      Show me data on weekend regatta participation in a class...   The only data I can point to is the Hobie Class association who run a national points system.   I was just surprised at how weak the US Laser world supports big championship events.

What better set of data would you look at to measure the participation and support for any single handed class in the USA?

 

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12 minutes ago, Tcatman said:

I like data... actual measurements... It beats anecdotes and blow hard marketing bullshit..   Just one measure of class health.... And its hard data.....and data that is public.      Show me data on weekend regatta participation in a class...   The only data I can point to is the Hobie Class association who run a national points system.   I was just surprised at how weak the US Laser world supports big championship events.

What better set of data would you look at to measure the participation and support for any single handed class in the USA?

 

There's data available for every euro and world championship too; NA is a stupid measure because NA participation is highly irrelevant to numbers when you look at international sailing as a whole.  The number of people who will spend the money to be in a class is probably the most useful measure of how many people are actually invested in a class.  That's available too.  

US Sailing has lots of data if you're interested in US market's health, but it's poorly organized and hard to search if i remember from the last time I asked.

 

 

 

 

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The facts about US Laser  sailing participation are pretty simple.

Since  Vanguard and the NA -ILCA quit fanatically promoting, the game has died off a little. It is still FAR AND AWAY the most active sailing fleet in North America but it quit growing in September 2002.

When LP took over, the builder support diminished significantly and in the  last few years the supply of boats and parts has been an issue. 

At the top levels, sailors simply jump through the necessary hoops and secure equipment for themselves.

At the club level, there is no arms race and the game is simply being played with older toys and some aftermarket parts. 

The walk on customer who impulse buys a pretty Sailboat is no longer a factor.  New sailors are not joins fleets from that source. 

As lasers do have a 10 to 20 year service life for local short course sailing, the established local fleets  are still able to play their games. 

In fact, local fleets are effectively beating the bushes and finding in-used toys, cleaning them up, and putting those boats under sailors. 

It is difficult to measure the exact current effect of the supply issues on local fleets or when short supply will sufficiently affect turnout to significantly damage tho local game . 

In Austin I see that time approaching and believe, unless we can get a supply of new toys, by 2024 our sailors will not be interested in the old recycled tired toys. 

I look forward to the day when we once again have an enthusiastic supportive builder of large firsts of singlehanded racing toys. 

 

in the  meantime, come play with us in our old stuff!!!

https://americasfavoriteboatshop.com/36th-easter-laser-regatta

 

 

 

 

764611FB-2EB0-46A2-AA7B-1A27AC369212.bmp

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The number of people who will spend the money to be in a class is probably the most useful measure of how many people are actually invested in a class.  That's available too.   

Answer the question... what data do YOU evaluate to assess the relative health of any class.... local to international.

On this specific point of NAs...   I think you look at the number of people who spend time and real money to support the class.... that is why I like the NA or Worlds participation and not class membership where you pay  a small amount to join so they can vote to keep things from changing.. (See Tornado Class Association voting down spins  despite ISAF gun to head re Olympics)

And for the laser class cluster fuck... isn't one of the concerns of EU laser sailors about the US rump and tail... wagging the dog?      Why would you not look at US Nationals turnout and say.. WTF... 60 people in NORTH AMERICA bothered to show up....  Why do we care what the hell they think?

.

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1 hour ago, Tcatman said:

OK....but most of the time, class health is compared by looking at NA participation...  (see the reports by Roger Jolley).   My surprise was how tepid the Laser class support for championships is....  In the context of upset at the international level including olympics...  .... the rank and file are not going to give a damn... OR pay dues... Or much care what you call the local class they sail in.

Well, perhaps you should do your homework. The last class reports to World Sailing, for example, say that there were 92 A Class members in the USA compared to 1611 Laser members and 110 Finn sailors (the latter is the latest figure, from 2016). So by that measure, the others can't compare.

By the measure of boats sold and averaged over the last few years, the Laser and Opti dominate utterly. There are some 2000 Lasers sold each year, with numbers dropping but still about 1600 at last report.  Of the other classes you mention there are 200 Finns, 190 J/70s and about 75 A Class sold annually. The Aero is selling at about 400 per year.

You say that class health is usually compared by looking at NA participation, which (for US fleets) is reasonable with the proviso that popular classes normally attract a far smaller proportion of their overall fleet to the nationals for logical reasons.  Obviously, looking at NA attendances must also include the separate Masters, Youth, Women or Junior fleets in classes that run them. So let's look at the 2014-16 average, trying to avoid double counting those who did Masters, Open and Junior titles.

The list therefore goes;  Opti 248 boats, Sabot 167 (both Jnr and Open), Laser Radial (both Open and Masters) 138, C420 113, Laser Standard (111 open and masters) and Sunfish (Open and Youth) 72. There were only 9 Laser 4.7s, in big contrast to their popularity in other areas.

For comparison the A Class fleet averaged 43, Hobie 14 about 15, Hobie 16 about 54. The Aero NA fleet numbers, counting 5, 7 and 9 together, were 38 in 2017, 18 in 2018 and 21 in 2019.  The Finn gets about 45 if one counts both Masters and Opens.

If fleets of well over 100 show "tepid" support for the Radial and Standard, then support for cats, J/70s and Finns must be called "frigid", and support for the class that people are hyping up as the Laser replacement (and for some other much-hyped classes) must be called "freezing". The support for the Tornado would appear to be below Zero Kelvin.

You've said that you hate classes like the Laser, which seems pretty bizarre. Your hate is obviously affecting your judgement.

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I sailed a sixty boat J-22 world’s whenbtgere were about 160,000 Lasers.

part of our travel time was spent considering if the same percentage (6000 of 160,000) of Lasers showed up at a regatta.

at one boat length per boat we would need a 14 mile starting line.

the weather leg  would have to be over 14 miles to force everybody to tack 

a sailor would have to choose the favored end hours before the start 

Lake Ontario could handle the course but it would take a day at Kingston  to get everybody launched and the course would have to be centered about twenty miles from the harbor. 

Here’s an idea!! Why don’t all of you reading this come on down to Austin next week and we can show everybody just how popular Laser sailing is!!!

https://americasfavoriteboatshop.com/36th-easter-laser-regatta

 

7F4736FF-A6B5-4EA8-8A4F-A1BBC5D0EEE7.jpeg

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2 hours ago, VWAP said:

I see you quoted me

After you wrote what is below .... etc..

 

OK. Between your comments and those by Wess,  I agree we ( yes WE) must stop this shit.

I shall no longer write disparaging stuff about you and you shall no longer write disparaging stuff about me. 

Neither of us will question the motivations of the other except to HONESTLY ask for a specific explanation sbout “what motivated you to take that position?” when we actually do disagree. 

I am hosting my the 36th annual regatta in Lasers next weekend. 

I do not expect to ever again to read where anyone suggests I am out to “get” the laser game or harm it in any way. 

You all know perfectly well that is utter and complete nonsense. 

I seriously  doubt there is an individual on this planet who has invested a larger percentage of his net worth in organization and promotion of the Laser game. 

The fact It is disputable I might even be in the top ten or thousand says all anyone needs to know about my motivations. 

Last: others suggest VWAP contributes to the game.

for that reason I must quit making disparaging remarks about him and encourage others to do the same.

if one of the “rewards” for passionately contributing is to be treated as a pariah, we certainly can’t expect any sane people to serve as passionate contributors. 

Kumbayah @VWAP. We are on the same team 

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I am amazed and saddened that this thread continues more than six years after I started it. 

My question about Santander Worlds 2014 is why did LPE not supply the boats?

I remember the Australian did that for the 2011 Worlds.

I also remember hearing here in Britain in 2016, over a pint from someone who had been working with them that LPE had to improve their build methods. I don't know if it’s true but apparently, they had been cutting corners.

It seems all the builders tightened their manufacturing tolerances, as a result of ILCA doing a lot of measuring in Santander.  

I've been told by a High-Performance Sailing Squad member that the PSA boats used to last longer but recent British built boats are a lot better.  So good for ILCA!!

I guess having ILCA inspectors going into the factories would be a sensible part of that ongoing quality checking?  Oh yes, is that an issue?
 

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On 4/3/2019 at 6:05 AM, Gouvernail said:

Look into your crystal ball:

You are at a Laser Regatta and some sailors who are Class members and oreregisteted show up with brand new Lasers. 

Their boats and sails are just like every other boat except for lacking the sticker that says ILCA approved. 

 

These sailors can request for a qualified ICLA post-build measurer to inspect their boats for compliance with class drawings and apparent adherence to build instructions.

If found to be compliant, they will have a special retro-compliance sticker affixed to their boat.

This retro-compliance certification inspection would be thorough, and would come at a significant price and inconvenience. Cheaper than buying a whole new boat (with sticker affixed), but certainly a significant cost burden to whose who have unstickered boats. Enough cost that it would rule out any temptation to buy a cheap (but assumed class-compliant) knock-off from an uncertified factory (in Europe or China or wherever) and retro-comply it in. But, at least, available as an avenue to legality for those who bought a Laser in good faith without realising that they actually needed to buy a Torch (or whatever it's to be called this week).

Feasible?

 

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still looks like all problems are solved by doing this..

Laser

find and replace with

Torch

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Here is one general situation  about which I am pretty certain.

Building  and marketing  Lasers is a special  business that requires a skill set very few individuals or even companies currently possess. 

The return on investment is not particularly great, and in fact is so pathetic, only someone who “just wants to build racing sailboats” wouid ever consider making the initial investment. 

Investors do not like having threats to their investment which they cannot entirely control.

Every  previous supplier of Lasers for the North American region has owned the trademark rights and has therefore been able to operate as that company has seen fit. Certainly  the racing sailor club has asked the builders to keep the boats about the same but the builders have ALWAYS gone ahead and made whatever changes were best for their bottom line.

Now the Class is reorganizing and attempting to gain more control. The rights to the Gamma would  come from class to builder rather than the other way around.

As a person who has had a sailboat  organization decide willy nilly to evaporate my $100,000 +_ investment in facilities, equipment, and inventory, there us no way in hell I would ever invest millions in a manufacturing and marketing company whose rights were controlled by a volunteer run non-profit. 

My guess is no sensible businessman would do so either. 

For whatever set of still unknown to me reasons,  LP’s management has decided not to try to make money growing, tending to, and harvesting the financial fruits of the Laser sailing game in North America. . 

I cannot imagine LP’s  management would be more likely to reenter the market  while having less control of its capital investment. 

I really do not see a positive outcome on the horizon. 

The available cornball analogies are endless. 

**ILCA jumped off the sinking ship because there is a place in Australia where they build lifeboats 

**the ILCA had to get away from the abusive LP and has grabbed the kids and moved into the battered association center 

**After endless attempts to reach a solution the ILCA simply is trying something else 

**After finding himself on a narrow dead end street the bus driver called the dispatcher who suggested he turn around. 

*********

Which reminds me... some of you may be blaming Tracy for this mess. Or maybe blaming Bill Crane. I do not think either one contributed to the situation in a manner for which “blame” is appropriate. Neither has that much power. 

so... I thought somebody might find the humor of inappropriate blame as described in this video 

 

 

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Why are there only three threads on this topic? 

Does it deserve its own forum like the AC? Surely yes.

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I started this thread in March 2013, I am appalled we are still talking about Laser copyright, more than six years later, the idea that we need a whole forum on the same subject is depressing, noooooo.

 

 

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That is a very good question , what do you think?  Maybe 'The Kirby Dinghy - the ongoing saga´  

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Given there is so much information on this thread, maybe its a good idea, I wonder if Scot would do it? 

 

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May I suggest a thread title:

The LOTR trilogy.

An epic saga about Lasers, Olympics ,Trolls and Rasty soon to be made into a  movie by Peter Jackson

Featuring Farzad Rastegar and his "precious" trade mark.

Rasty.thumb.jpg.8732db50ba8b38e0202103c4b748a60e.jpg

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On 6/13/2016 at 4:56 PM, Gantt said:

 

Paid up current members of the ILCA don't think the actions of the ILCA were OK.

 

And they still don't.

 

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On 4/11/2019 at 6:49 PM, Otterbox said:

I am amazed and saddened that this thread continues more than six years after I started it. 

My question about Santander Worlds 2014 is why did LPE not supply the boats?

I'm not so surprised. Lasers / ILCA dinghies are an important part of the global sailing scene.

Re the Santander worlds in 2014, my understanding is that there needs to be financing of the boats built for contests where the bots are supplied, and there were issues with LPE securing the necessary finance - so LPE didn't build the boats. This was at the height of the legal action, so there may have been other factors involved, but at the end of the day, if nobody financed the building, the boats weren't built.

This topic has moved a long way in the last six years. Six years ago, the issues included the Kirby legal action, and the 2011 fundamental rule change which controversially helped LPE according to Kirby. Since then, the ILCA has changed the exec (In my view, Tracy Usher and Eric Faust are doing a great job), Jeff Martin has passed away, and recent changes to the legal situation mean that there is a definite way forward for the class. 

Maybe it's time to retire this thread.

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On 5/27/2016 at 3:39 AM, Gantt said:

Tiller Man's most recent post hen picks the facts and ignores the issues that the ILCA currently face.

The fate of the ILCA is in the hands of Andy, Tracy and "other class leaders", glossing over the relevant yet again. These "other class leaders"  represent entities other than the ILCA . Andy has stated on this forum and said that Bill Crane is a great guy, and "gets it" - hardly a neutral thing to say...The membership of the ILCA World Council seem to be a great recipe for dysfunctionality! What Tiller Man is saying is naive, when the hands of the ILCA themselves have such obvious conflicts.

Tiller Man is in-step with the official 'we are safe hands' line that the ILCA rolled out a few years back - but out of step with reality.

Maybe Laser sailors want an ILCA that is more democratic and transparent in it's actions.

Glad to see that Gantt has revised his opinion of the class organization and the good folks like Andy Roy

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On 6/13/2016 at 4:56 PM, Gantt said:

 

 

It therefore doesn't matter to Tiller Man that the ILCA made false statements to solicit votes for the fundamental rule change.

Paid up current members of the ILCA don't think the actions of the ILCA were OK.

And they still don't.

The supreme irony, if I remember correctly , is that it eventually emerged (due to Wess and Tillerman's provocative and investigative journalism...accompanied by musical videos) that Gantt was not in fact a "paid up current member of the ILCA" 

They even found out who he was..and his website.

Ahhh good times.

Welcome back Gantt

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

The supreme irony, if I remember correctly , is that it eventually emerged (due to Wess and Tillerman's provocative and investigative journalism...accompanied by musical videos) that Gantt was not in fact a "paid up current member of the ILCA" 

They even found out who he was..and his website.

Ahhh good times.

Welcome back Gantt

I am trying a new tactic this time thus far reserved only for Doug Lord RIP.  I have him on ignore so that I will not be endless distracted by the insanity.  The funny thing is among a group of us sailing Lasers on my home river he became a verb... like a "brodie."  Overheard at the leeward mark rounding... "don't go in there you have no rights, don't pull a canntt or I will go full brodie on your ass..."

Anyway, my view is let it go.  Your legal insight was proven correct time and time again.

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more like Cantt. because he cantt stop sticking his foot in his mouth amiright gang? i mean the guy is wrong a lot! ha ha just a little word humor for you guys here on the web forum

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Must we?? Can’t we enjoy the silly meaningless arguments without getting personal?? 

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It is usually around this time of year that I discover that the blade on the lawnmower has not magically got sharper over the winter.

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to be fair i wasn't actually making fun of gantt. satire ain't dead!

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1 minute ago, dgmckim said:

to be fair i wasn't actually making fun of gantt. satire ain't dead!

That wasn’t aimed at anyone in particular or any one comment. I merely sensed a drift 

 

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58 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It is usually around this time of year that I discover that the blade on the lawnmower has not magically got sharper over the winter.

SWEET JESUS you owe me a suit.  Nobody but a few of us will get that but damn did I bust just out laughing.  I sooooo remember LOLing at that post.  Damn this thread was fun back in the day.  I am trying to turn over a new leaf so stop making me laugh...

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22 hours ago, IPLore said:

I will repeat what I stated several pages earlier. I do not believe that the Builder Agreements will play an immediate role in the unfolding situation. The ILCA were not parties to those agreements.

Further, by making these weird, pseudo legal statements, IPLore continues to attempt to misinform.

The builders did not sign the IYRU (ISAF or WS) agreement.

Yet IPLore says that the WS agreement is important:

Quote

I believe that the contract that raises the relevant concerns is the multi party agreement known as the World Sailing Contract. The ILCA were a party to this agreement.  This was originally signed by WS (formerly known as IYRU),  the ILCA , the trademark owners and BKI.   I would expect that the original 1983 WS agreement has possibly been updated....but as I commented earlier I would suspect that the trademark owners have retained the right to approve new builders.

The main reason that the WS is relevant to the builders, is because of the builder's agreement, where they agree to be bound as if they are parties.

There is no agreement where the trademark owners appoint builders. That is a myth put forward by IPLore. The trademark owners licensed the builders to use the trademarks.

IPLore's legal thinking, (if it is to be followed) also says the builder's agreements are in bad shape, and are not particularly relevant.

Why IPLore resorts to straw-man attacks on me is because his legal opinions are weak and misinform. I will take it from the posts above that IPLore is wanting to re-engage and spend a few more  years debating these issues - that he does not support retiring this thread. 

This specific clause, repeated in all of the builders agreements is why the WS agreement is relevant, and is the specific clause which builders agree to having the boats inspected. Without it, builders would have not agreed to inspections. Not only are the builder's agreements relevant to the dismissal of LPE, they are central.

Clause 9.2 from Brook Shield Motor Services Limited's builder's agreement in 1983:

IYRU Clause.png

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17 hours ago, Gantt said:



The builders did not sign the IYRU (ISAF or WS) agreement.

 

Oh Sweet Jesus!

The trade mark owner signed the WS agreement.   LP (via related companies), the builder for NA and Europe, is the trademark owner for NA and Europe. 

Yes, I think the builders agreement between BKI and LPE that you quote is in bad shape.......but if you think it will be material to a dispute between the Class Association and LP....be my guest.  You seem incapable of understanding that the ILCA were NOT a party to the builders agreement between BKI and LPE.  You seem incapable of understanding that both parties to the LPE builders agreement have submitted sworn affidavits that the agreement is terminated.

I am suggesting that any forthcoming contractual dispute between LP and the ILCA (if it occurs and I pray that wiser heads prevail) will center around the WS agreement and whether the terms of that agreement have been breached.

You disagree. Lets just agree to disagree .

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25 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Oh Sweet Jesus!

The trade mark owner signed the WS agreement.   LP (via related companies), the builder for NA and Europe, is the trademark owner for NA and Europe. 

Yes, I think the builders agreement between BKI and LPE that you quote is in bad shape.......but if you think it will be material to a dispute between the Class Association and LP....be my guest.  You seem incapable of understanding that the ILCA were NOT a party to the builders agreement between BKI and LPE.  You seem incapable of understanding that both parties to the LPE builders agreement have submitted sworn affidavits that the agreement is terminated.

I am suggesting that any forthcoming contractual dispute between LP and the ILCA (if it occurs and I pray that wiser heads prevail) will center around the WS agreement and whether the terms of that agreement have been breached.

You disagree. Lets just agree to disagree .

IPLore seems incapable of understanding that there is no agreement where the trademark holders appoint builders. :)  The Trademark holders license the trademark to the builders.

There are many misdirects and inaccuracies to the notions IPLore continues to put forward. 

IPLore also seems to fail to understand the jurisdictional differences (under the WS agreement) that any future action may bring, mixing up the old action with future ones. LP are not a party to the WS agreement in the same way that the ILCA are not a party to the builder's agreement. (IPLore's logic get's very weak when talking about parties).

Earlier, IPLore correctly quotes paragraph 9.1 of the IYRU agreement but fails to give the context within the agreement.
 

Quote

The Builders had been appointed by at least July of 1983 and were approved by WS in November 1983.

The precise wording of paragraph 9.1 of the WS agreement in November stated :

"It is understood and agreed by IYRU..that the Builders set forth in Schedule 2..are authorized to manufacture the Laser Class boat....and that further builders may only be appointed with the prior written approval of Kirby Inc, Trade Mark Owner and the IYRU"

The interpretation of Clause 9.1 is that necessary to the appointment of a builder are the permissions to use the Trademark; build the boat; use the numbers supplied etc. in order to make the boat in it's entirety. Such permissions are explicitly defined earlier in the agreement, clearly stating that the Trademark holder does not give authority to build, but to license use of the trademark. (See below, clause 1).

Also, in November 1983, the Association and the IYRU needed to give written permission for the changes to builders (Clause 17). Specifically, IPLore stating "You will note that at that time (November 1983), the ILCA was NOT responsible for authorizing builders nor approving future builders. That came later." was misleading/incorrect. Clause 17 required the ILCA to give written permission for future builders. What possible reason would IPLore put forward this incorrect notion? Who would benefit from a misdirection away from the builder and the ILCA being bound by the agreements?

There was mention off the ILCA ("The Association") in both the builder's agreement and the IYRU agreement; the builders agreed to act as if they were party to the IYRU agreement. For example, the builders agreed to make payments to the ILCA. The ILCA are named as a party to the IYRU agreement. Again and again, IPLore has promoted that the ILCA was not party to the builder's agreements here in this forum. Why? (Specifically, watching IPLore promote this notion unopposed lead to my return here.)

The below is from the IYRU Agreement (1983):

Agreement.png

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We agree to disagree.  You think

18 hours ago, Gantt said:

. Not only are the builder's agreements relevant to the dismissal of LPE, they are central.
 

I say they are of limited relevance.   I say the the WS agreement is central to any future contractual dispute. 

You've made your case. I've made mine.

Let's wait and see. Hopefully we never find out because sensible folk sit around a table and find a solution without going to court.

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26 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I say they are of limited relevance.   I say the the WS agreement is central to any future contractual dispute

You've made your case. I've made mine.

Let's wait and see. Hopefully we never find out because sensible folk sit around a table and find a solution without going to court.

Except you have ignored the mistakes and misdirects I have pointed out that you have made. (And have for several years). (Or shall I repeat over and over that LPE is not a party to the WS agreement, like you did with the ILCA regarding the builder's agreements?)

Have you made mistakes? (If so admit to them - that's what honest people do). Or is there more going on here?? Who benefits from your consistent misdirects???

I also think when you said that the trademark holders appoint builders, you got it wrong. That in 1983, the ILCA needed to give written approval when the builders changed. And there are quite a few more. It's not so much about agreeing to disagree, when you have made such obvious errors IPLore. That is possibly about your ego? Or something else?

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1 hour ago, Gantt said:

Except you have ignored the mistakes and misdirects I have pointed out

Point them out using the specific language of  the agreements and legal reasoning.  It's hard to have a real argument otherwise.

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15 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Point them out using the specific language of  the agreements and legal reasoning.  It's hard to have a real argument otherwise.

Pretty sure I did in post #4455 above. :) 

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It amazes me how grown men can waste their time bickering about things that do not matter while ignoring what matters:

For whatever reason, the business with the rights to sell Lasers in North America and most of  the rest of the  world does not choose to promote or sell Lasers in a manner acceptable to the people who are officers of the Laser Racing club 

The Laser Racing club’s Constitution and rules were written when those building and selling the toys had a goal of making their product into the “official size and weight sailboat of International singlehanded sailing competition.”

As a HUGE part of the sales pitch hadvto do with identical toys, the Constitution and rules of the Racing club demanded all toys come from the Laser  company and EXCLUDED all other suppliers of toys. 

Half a century later the design rights have expired, anyone can build the exact same toys as the Laser, and it could be possible to modify the club’s rules to allow generic just like a Laser toys. 

The officers of the racing association have informed the Laser builder of its intention  to not only allow generic toys but to ban  Lasers produced after “now” from the association’s games.

The Racing Association has not yet taken steps to begin the process of removing the “brand name Lasers only” requirements for toys used in its games. 

Currently the International Laser Class Association Has banned any toy built after “now” from it’s  games. 

Exception: Games played in Japan and  Australia may be played using  new toys built in  Japan or Australia respectively. 

...  

The North American Class President has posted a nite in these forums suggesting there is a plan to eventually begin the process of modifying the Class rules and amending the constitution. 

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Did you see that the ILCA has amended their news article from the 25th to reference the need for voting? http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/04/25/olympic-one-person-sailing-dinghy-completes-name-change/

 

Quote

ILCA emphasizes that a vote of the members will be conducted before the changeover will be official and that process has already begun. Some weeks ago, the necessary amendment to the ILCA Fundamental Rule (to remove the requirement for a Builder to have rights to use a Laser trademark) was approved by the ILCA World Council. The approved rule change was then submitted to World Sailing for consultation as recommended under World Sailing Regulation 10.11.1. ILCA has been awaiting the response to this request for consultation and will proceed with the member voting after the consultation is received, which we expect to be after the World Sailing Mid-Year Meeting.

 

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Count me as one who appreciates a person who recognizes a mistake or simply learns something and who then publicly adjusts his stance. 

I would appreciate it if the modified statement had a note added:

edited  xx-xx-2019

 

But, the fact is the edited note is more informative and indicates the officers do not plan to act in the previously suggested vigilante manner. 

I am not fan of rules but when they exist  the only right way to act is to abide by them or get them Modified.  

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On 4/29/2019 at 8:04 AM, IPLore said:

May I suggest a thread title:

The LOTR trilogy.

An epic saga about Lasers, Olympics ,Trolls and Rasty soon to be made into a  movie by Peter Jackson

Featuring Farzad Rastegar and his "precious" trade mark.

Rasty.thumb.jpg.8732db50ba8b38e0202103c4b748a60e.jpg

IPLore called it back in April. 

Opening in a court room near you one day soon.

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12 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

0786B6E3-2BCE-4B0E-98B0-594A2B08A737.jpeg

Interesting, but more important will be the status of the various contracts. 
I also note that the new Laser building subsidiary, Laser Performance LLC, does not appear to be a party to the Lawsuit. I wonder if the dismantling of LPE  that  we have noted else where is connected? If LPE has no assets and no business where do the damages come from? I have not a clue what the implications of that are. 

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It means Kirby probably has some worthless sheets of paper 

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3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

It means Kirby probably has some worthless sheets of paper 

Well 6.8 million worth of paper one $ bills - at least till after appeal - ain't bad.  And ILCA said they were going to pay him as well in the new FRAND scheme.  So be nice to the grey hair!  And his grandkid's grandkids.  He looks to be getting paid, coming and going!!  Not a bad gig if you can get it!!

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22 minutes ago, Wess said:

 Not a bad gig if you can get it!!

It's easy. Just design a dinghy that sells 220,000 units. Should be simple enough.

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11 minutes ago, bill4 said:

It's easy. Just design a dinghy that sells 220,000 units. Should be simple enough.

Somebody tell Clark Mills!!

 

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

Somebody tell Clark Mills!!

 

Yep. He missed the boat.

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Just now, bill4 said:

Yep. He missed the boat.

Well he nailed the boat. But appears to be a more humble, less greedy kinda dude.

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9 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well he nailed the boat. But appears to be a more humble, less greedy kinda dude.

He actually donated the design. I am sure he would turn in his grave if he saw what that class has become. All those dollars from maniacal parents missed out on...

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Just now, bill4 said:

He actually donated the design. I am sure he would turn in his grave if he saw what that class has become. All those dollars from maniacal parents missed out on...

I know and agree.  But there are lots of good parents as well.  Actually more than not. 

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I think we must be way behind on our court documents. How did a jury trial happen without us?

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4 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

I think we must be way behind on our court documents. How did a jury trial happen without us?

‘’cause I think no one really gives a hoot any more.

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21 hours ago, JimC said:

Interesting, but more important will be the status of the various contracts. 
I also note that the new Laser building subsidiary, Laser Performance LLC, does not appear to be a party to the Lawsuit. I wonder if the dismantling of LPE  that  we have noted else where is connected? If LPE has no assets and no business where do the damages come from? I have not a clue what the implications of that are. 

dont you go civil forfeiture in the USA?

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