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Student_Driver

Security at Anchor - Peter Blake Problem

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From 86-88 I lived on my boat in PNG. I was 'shopped' on once and did have the items returned by the neighbouring village. They were unusable due to immersion in salt water.

 

I ordered a 12 volt cattle fence from New Zealand. I had to fashion standoffs from plastic tubing so that the stainless fish leader wire did not contact the stantions, pushpit or pullpit. I used a magnetic door alarm reed switch fastened to the underside of the deck to switchthe 'fence'. A magnet disabled the fence but only when placed at the correct location on the deck. The Stainless life lines were grounded sufficiently on my glass boat.

 

I had no other incidents of successful night time boarding. There was a scream one time.

Golf clap. Very nice.

Ah, but that scream was when he, himself, pissed on the fence...

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I dont worry about the locals or natives, Ive been robbed heaps of times and I think its my crew.

I woke up one morning and all the rum was gone the anchor was missing (still in locker), and all the BACON was eaten, and the boat was a mess

No one fessed up, so we thought we had been violated, by bad people.

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It never fails to amaze how folks do theses things, but remember it can always be worse -

 

 

That really is worth watching just for the green bikini.

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It never fails to amaze how folks do theses things, but remember it can always be worse -

 

That really is worth watching just for the green bikini.

Indeed.

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Piracy, outside of trying to avoid areas where it occurs, there are few practical solutions to not be a victim. You will always be over powered and out run in a sailboat. I do my bit by supporting the Navy, cruise on the Great Lakes (worst encounter was a guy in a powerboat from Cleveland while enjoying a quiet cove), and reminding folks that "celebrating" piracy isn't cool - you won't find a "Jolly Roger" on my boat.

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We've been cruising as a small family and think of crime in two categories:

 

1. Areas with any potential for violent crime. We simply don't go there. Getting attacked is a bad thought however the stress of being there takes away from the enjoyment. As bad as we want to cruise to Caracas, VZ we simply won't go there by boat. The whole gun on boat debate seems crazy to us. Stay away from areas with violent crimes and the issue is non-existent.

2. Areas with potential for theft. We play the odds. 100's of stories from Nassau, Bahamas of people having items stolen from their boat. Dinks, deck gear, etc. Much of it at night whilst sleeping. Unfortunately there is theft to a certain degree in all parts of the world. We look at a some theft as a cruising tax. However, our vigilance in protecting our gear has kept this tax to a minimum. One 15hp engine was stolen while our dinghy popped (another story) and we had to ditch it on the beach for the night. Funny thing was that there had never been a theft at this beach before. Some bad luck. We hoist our dinghy most nights on a halyard edged up to the hull. And keep deck gear below. Surfboards should have the lock clips installed, etc.

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It never fails to amaze how folks do theses things, but remember it can always be worse -

 

 

That really is worth watching just for the green bikini.

Her ass must be really hungry..

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It never fails to amaze how folks do theses things, but remember it can always be worse -

 

We had an element of this in my adventures the other day.

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My early warning system is my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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My early warning system is my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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It never fails to amaze how folks do theses things, but remember it can always be worse -

 

We had some elements of this the other day with our anchor incident.

 

I'm talking about the stubbornness and stupidity BTW - not the green bikini.

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My early warning system consist of my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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My early warning system consist of my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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My early warning system consist of my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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My early warning system consist of my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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My early warning system consist of my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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My early warning system consist of my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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My early warning system consist of my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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My early warning system consist of my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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My early warning system consist of my five pound dog. Nothing escapes his scrutiny.

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No worries. Just seen it work in those kind of places. I also have the special rubber with nails stowage box next to my spin stowage so it works out nicely.

 

6' Cargo Netting Mounted around the deck in addition to ensuring all lines over the side are up and out of reach. It keeps people out and doesn't allow them to climb over without being caught in it. Flat rubber mats with nails can be laid down on the deck and easily removed and stored. I've seen broken glass glued to them but it seems a little extreme.

Sorry, but I just have to shake my head in wonder at some of these sort of suggestions...

 

Yeah, perhaps if I ditched my spinnaker and Code 0, a couple of spare anchors & rodes, my series drogue, my folding bike, and stowed my outboard, fenders, and a bunch of other crap that lives in the lazarette on the stern rail instead, well... perhaps THEN I could find the space necessary to stow enough cargo netting to cover my boat, and deck matting impregnated with nails... (grin)

 

Again, it just seems SO much simpler to cruise where the bad guys ain't, or maintain an anchor watch if you're in a spot you deem to be that great a risk...

 

stjohnriver.jpg

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In terms of a weapon what would be wrong with a couple of 12 guage flare pistols? One for each hand. Anything illegal about carrying flare pistols?

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Our primary threat was assessed as boarders while we were asleep at anchor. To this end we made security washboards (metal framed, stainless mesh to maintain airflow) and put bars over the fwd hatch. The idea was to make sure that no-one could get into the vessel without waking us (smashing in). Air horn handy to bunk, and a mil spec green laser capable of causing permanent blindness. The laser is less likely to escalate the situation where gunfire might. It is still a last resort, and we were fortunate enough not to have to use it.

 

How do you plan on aiming your "milspec" laser? If blinding (temporarily) is the goal a large strobe would be much easier to deploy.

 

While bad things certainly can happen randomly in the world the overwhelming amount of crime on tourists occurs because they were drunk, stupid or unaware. Don't be any and particularly don't be all three. This may not apply to the French Cuff shirt in "emerging economies" world

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This is an interesting thread with some practical ideas, some quite spectacular in their scope, and some just not workable at all. And, the thing is, the work-ability of some of these aren't the technical implementations but the human factor. Sure, you can set up surveillance systems to monitor your boat, anti-boarding systems to keep uninvited boarders off the boat, and implement various self defense measures if they are on board.

 

But you have to look at the situation you are facing, or are likely to face, in order to be effective. You also have to look at yourself and what you are able, especially willing, to do.

 

The continuum of risks is broad. The spectrum could be:

  1. A simple attempt at non-violent theft. This is just stuff. It might be stuff you really like or stuff you need. It's your stuff and you don't want it taken. This kind of theft doesn't want you around. If you are around, they will go where there is no risk of conflict. These are cowardly thefts. They tend to happen to the less vigilant.
  2. It could be theft in mind, backed by defensive violence. This is an added risk that this kind of thief, while not wanting to run into you, will have no problem whatsoever with using violence to escape with your stuff. They may not be willing to kill you but they will fight you directly instead of just trying to run off.
  3. Then there is the theft where they will maim or kill you to get your stuff. They don't care of you are there. They might even plan for you to be there.
  4. Let's not forget boarding for rape, kidnapping or simply outright murder.

 

Items 1 and 2 can be mitigated by staying away from high-crime areas, being very visible on your boat, practicing vigilance, and making it clear that you protect your boat and the people aboard. These kinds of thieves don't want conflict. They don't usually carry weapons. They are opportunistic in nature. Likely, as others have pointed out, they could also be other cruisers. We like to be a friendly lot but, don't forget that people who pretend to like you can also be casing your place for a future theft. Your best defense here is to deny them the opportunity. They will go hunting somewhere else for friendly and less vigilant folk.

 

Item 3 represents the horror stories we have heard, where pirates or boarders will have it in their plan to simply kill you and take your stuff. The only defense you have against them is not being where they are, demonstrating a strong enough deterrent that they will go hunting elsewhere, or be capable enough to defend yourself if you are approached or boarded.

 

Item 4 is pure self defense. They don't want your stuff so much as they want you, or your wife, or your daughter. They are hunting you, not your stuff. Best thing is to be where they are not but, if you present a good target, I hope you are capable of defending yourself.

 

This brings us to handing out violence terrible and deadly. Are you ready to do that? Are you willing to literally run someone through with a pike? If you carry a firearm, are you well trained in it's use? Do you know how to bring it to bear in a combat situation? How well would your firearm (unless it's an AR variant) fare against a pirate with a AK? I'm not asking these questions from an air of superiority but engaging you to seriously ask yourself these questions. You could have the fanciest pike, the best gun, in the world. If you aren't willing to tear up the center of mass with that pike, or rounds from your weapon, it's useless to you. Keep in mind that video games, as violent as they may be, don't prepare you for face to face violence. Only training or pure survival does that.

 

There is nothing wrong with talking about self-defense, even using deadly force to defend you or yours from grave bodily injury or death. I support your right to survive, even if it means the unfortunate death of your assailant.

 

The very serious question is: are you ready to do that?

 

The protective measures we choose, no matter what they are, are our personal decisions as captains/cruisers/travelers. It matters not so much which tactic or strategy we choose as much as if we are comfortable executing it. It's much like the PFD statement that says the best PFD is the one you will use.

 

I've been involved in law enforcement and personal security. I've been ready to defend myself and others by bringing violence to bear as effectively and directly as possible. Contrast this with my personal wish for non-violence and it's a bit of cognitive dissonance to those that don't understand it. The thing is, my very job, the places I needed to go, had a high likelihood of violence. Whether it was a felony traffic stop or patrolling a fence line in Iraq, I was placing myself in an environment where violence was likely. I put myself there.

 

But back to real risks and the likelihood of same for us as cruisers (or homeowners for that matter).

 

The advantage of this, instead of what I describe above, is that cruisers can usually choose where we cruise. One of the most effective survival tactics is to avoid the risk all together. If you don't fall off the boat, you are less likely to drown. If you don't pass though a gang-infested part of an inner city, you are less likely to be a victim of gang violence. If you don't cruise in areas where poverty or opportunity have contributed to high crime rates, you are less likely to be a victim of violent crime. Now, none of this blames the victim of violence. I can't stand when people do that. It does, however, speak to how we can lessen the likelihood of being a victim of violence.

 

While I'm perfectly capable of defending me and mine, I'd really rather not if I have a choice.

 

The world is large. We don't have to go everywhere.

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Our primary threat was assessed as boarders while we were asleep at anchor. To this end we made security washboards (metal framed, stainless mesh to maintain airflow) and put bars over the fwd hatch. The idea was to make sure that no-one could get into the vessel without waking us (smashing in). Air horn handy to bunk, and a mil spec green laser capable of causing permanent blindness. The laser is less likely to escalate the situation where gunfire might. It is still a last resort, and we were fortunate enough not to have to use it.

 

How do you plan on aiming your "milspec" laser? If blinding (temporarily) is the goal a large strobe would be much easier to deploy.

First off, the "mil spec" thing is all over the net. They are used to sell 5mW green laser pointers. However, you can actually purchase a 1400mW model for about $300.00. This item is actually capable of burning skin, clothing and causing instant and possibly irreversible blindness.

 

As to your other question, a laser is very very easy to aim. You simply paint your target by walking the large green/blue dot around on it. A laser is very very directional and, aside from highly reflective surfaces, poses very little risk to the user. A strobe would be non-directional and poses the risk of blinding both the intended target and the user.

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On the Wikipedia murder rate article - look a little deeper. Anguilla is listed with a murder rate of 6.8 per 100,000, but that was one murder, that's right just one. Antiqua at 6.8, had 6, the BVI at 8.6, had 2, Dominica at 22, had 15, Granada at 11.5, had 12, etc. Almost certainly none of these where cruisers, and few if any were tourists. So if you are planning on visiting the Eastern Caribbean, (the Virgin Islands, St Martin, Anguilla, St Barts, Antiqua, Kitts and Nevis, Montserrat, Guadeloupe, Dominica, Martinique, St Lucia, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Grenada, the Bahamas and Turks and Caicos) - the total number of murders reported in the Wiki article for those countries was - 357. 94 of which were in the Bahamas, and if you do not go to the USVI, Guadeloupe or St Lucia you can deduct another 119 for a total of 213, over half the total. Having been to all of these I would suggest you go, as they are great places to cruise, and I never felt at risk in any of them.

 

Criminals are lazy and generally comit crimes where the target is easy. Many of the anchorages/mooring bouys in the BVI are not anywhere much of anything. If you happend to be in Tortola, most of the marinas have security. You are more likely to get robbed at Disneyworld.

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Our primary threat was assessed as boarders while we were asleep at anchor. To this end we made security washboards (metal framed, stainless mesh to maintain airflow) and put bars over the fwd hatch. The idea was to make sure that no-one could get into the vessel without waking us (smashing in). Air horn handy to bunk, and a mil spec green laser capable of causing permanent blindness. The laser is less likely to escalate the situation where gunfire might. It is still a last resort, and we were fortunate enough not to have to use it.

 

How do you plan on aiming your "milspec" laser? If blinding (temporarily) is the goal a large strobe would be much easier to deploy.

First off, the "mil spec" thing is all over the net. They are used to sell 5mW green laser pointers. However, you can actually purchase a 1400mW model for about $300.00. This item is actually capable of burning skin, clothing and causing instant and possibly irreversible blindness.

Also causing potential damage to your craft from the beam itself (if it's burning clothing, it's going to burn boat), or possibly from reflections from polished steel or water (rain, what have you) I'm well aware of lasers and how to use them, it's what I've done for work. Pointing a laser at an eyeball, understress, as someones moving isn't trivial. And then once you've blinded them you've got a pissed off bad guy with a gun. It would make it a poor choice for a weapon to me. Similarly bear spray would make a poor weapon for defending your boat from boarders. Hey, if it makes you feel better, more power.

 

You can certainly purchase directional strobes.

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I have some sympathy for the OP, who posted a simple, clear, narrow question and got a lot of lifestyle advice and implicit criticism.

 

Some people suggested motion sensors or radar. Probably not realistic in a rocking boat in an anchorage with lots of things nearby, buoys, moored boats, etc., and passing by from time to time. More likely to work would be some sort of IR sensor, as suggest by several posters above. Probably would get fewer false positives. You would need to set it at some minimum level so seagulls don't set it off, however.

 

And the dog solution is perfect, if you can overcome all the other problems of having a dog on board.

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Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here?

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About a dogs bathroom needs. I have seen this done. You train the dog to use a piece of artificial turf on the cockpit floor in times when going ashore is a nuisance. Simply troll the carpet behind the boat when it needs a good wash.

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Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here?

 

 

Besides the potential of setting your boat on fire?

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Unless you shoved the barrel up someone's nose, a 12 guage flare is unlikely to do more than annoy them unless you hit them in the eye. They are also f-ng useless as flares. Do you REALLY want to initiate armed combat with an innacurate, one shot, slow to reload, and 99.9% less-than-lethal weapon?

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Electric bear fence and perimeter alarm kits. Battery powered field Guardian D-cell 0.35 joule electric fence charger or solar powered Parmak Solor Pak 12 0.5 joule electric fence charger. $250-$500. Must have worked last time we used one in the moutains with wet and rain... didn't hear any bears and still here! www.bestbearfence.com

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Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here?

 

That's what Peter Blake thought?

 

Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here?

 

That's what Peter Blake thought?

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Good to know about the flare pistol. I have one but being a small lake sailor have never had the need to fire it. I keep it in my RV thinking it could come in handy against some hillbilly intruder when camping in the wild. Guess I should try a test fire.

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Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here?

 

That's what Peter Blake thought?

 

>Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here?

 

That's what Peter Blake thought?

 

What, exactly, did Peter Blake think?

 

I believe he attempted to use a rifle, shooting one of the attackers in the hand, before it misfired or jammed.

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Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here?

 

That's what Peter Blake thought?

 

>Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here? <

/span>

 

That's what Peter Blake thought?

What, exactly, did Peter Blake think?

 

I believe he attempted to use a rifle, shooting one of the attackers in the hand, before it misfired or jammed.

 

Your comprehension skills aren't great are they.

 

What he is missing is that Peter Blake probably thought something along the lines of "At the very least I would think a flare pistol gun pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off".....

 

It wasn't.

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Oh, lay off. I want poking at you. I was trying to determine the meaning of your cryptic question. Sorry if I don't do obtuse well all the time. For reading comprehension to come onto play there should be something to actually read.

 

I don't know what Blake thought and I think, for the purposes of this discussion, it's pretty useless to speculate.

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Oh, lay off. I want poking at you. I was trying to determine the meaning of your cryptic question. Sorry if I don't do obtuse well all the time. For reading comprehension to come onto play there should be something to actually read.

 

I don't know what Blake thought and I think, for the purposes of this discussion, it's pretty useless to speculate.

I doubt anyone will know what he thought. But it is pretty damned obvious he figured that by pulling a gun he would "defend" himself or his people or property. It wasn't a smart move.

 

Isn't there a lesson there? Don't you get it?

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Security has been on my mind lately.

Some jerk stole my bicycle while I was at the pub.

Two or three midnight cowboys have taken around 600 empties on at least three occasions.

And a couple of weeks ago a young couple were about to go for a row in a dinghy from another boat.

All of this while tied up to a secure dock with a locked gate.

Will be good to go to some disadvantaged place before everything is gone.

Unkle Crusty

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they're are likely plenty of lessons here. But they aren't always as simple and straightforward is some would suggest.

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In Warsaw, in 1944, my father killed a man with a flare gun. He would never have one onboard.

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PIR sensors together with the basis programming from a trail camera would do the job of warning you of approaching vessels coming into a close proximity. Would also warn you of wildlife and birds as an added "bonus".

How to handle whatever comes your way is a different discussion really.

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I am 100% sure it was not a *12 gauge* flare gun. In 1the 1940s it would have likely been 25 MM or 37 MM. I have a 25 MM version that just might do some damage. I actually DID use the thing one night to send a suspicios boat elsewhere. A powerboat took up station about 50 yards aft of us and had us bracketed with their spotlight. They mached us turn for tun and would not respond to radio hails. We launched a magnesium parachute flare to light them up and they STILL stayed on us. Next one was a meteor flare over their flying bridge. THAT got them to leave.

 

 

In Warsaw, in 1944, my father killed a man with a flare gun. He would never have one onboard.

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Googled flare gun adaptors. Look what came up. Adaptor lets you fire 410 shotgun shell or .45 long colt shell.
Could be a life saver if caught in a bad situation. Flare gun for each hand.
quote_icon.png Originally Posted by insatiable ONE viewpost-right.png
I was looking through one of the latest gun mags.
Saw a steel sleeve insert for the 26.5 mm flare gun to shoot 12 gauge or 45 LC.

found this in a search ( not the same one )

Coming Soon: Flaregun Adapters

I was only slightly wrong, after looking again to confirm my post.
Should have realized after looking at my post.

Was listed in Shooting Times Magazine, small featured article.



BATF Approved! Click on the BATF letter below.
Don't be caught defenseless.
The Sub-Caliber Device is perfect for boaters, campers or hikers. Our device simply slides into your 26.5mm flare gun to allow you to fire .45 Long Colt or .410 Shotgun Shells. The rifled steel barrel is encased in a lightweight corrosion resistant adaptor adding minimal additional weight. This is the ultimate gear for your survival kit.

Dimensions:
Length: 4"
Weight: .10 lbs
Fits in 26.5mm Flare Guns

From the Kennesaw Cannon Company: available at Cheaper Than Dirt / Mississippi Auto Arms
560d1352819816t-12-gauge-ammo-flare-gun-

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Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here?

I know it worked great in the movie, "Dead Calm".

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I think you guys are mostly talking about US cruising, but just FYI the flare gun adaptors are illegal or a hassle in most all the places that guns are illegal or a hassle (and just carrying ammo is usually a hassle even without any 'gun' at all), and the flare guns themselves are troublesome in a surprising number of places (for example Australia and Indonesia if I remember correctly) - only the 'stick' flares allowed, nothing that is 'reloadable' and looks like a gun.

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If you're going to bother with that you may as well get this.............

 

1911-Stainless-detail-hero.jpg

 

Googled flare gun adaptors. Look what came up. Adaptor lets you fire 410 shotgun shell or .45 long colt shell.
Could be a life saver if caught in a bad situation. Flare gun for each hand.
quote_icon.png Originally Posted by insatiable ONE viewpost-right.png
I was looking through one of the latest gun mags.
Saw a steel sleeve insert for the 26.5 mm flare gun to shoot 12 gauge or 45 LC.

found this in a search ( not the same one )

Coming Soon: Flaregun Adapters

I was only slightly wrong, after looking again to confirm my post.
Should have realized after looking at my post.

Was listed in Shooting Times Magazine, small featured article.



BATF Approved! Click on the BATF letter below.
Don't be caught defenseless.
The Sub-Caliber Device is perfect for boaters, campers or hikers. Our device simply slides into your 26.5mm flare gun to allow you to fire .45 Long Colt or .410 Shotgun Shells. The rifled steel barrel is encased in a lightweight corrosion resistant adaptor adding minimal additional weight. This is the ultimate gear for your survival kit.

Dimensions:
Length: 4"
Weight: .10 lbs
Fits in 26.5mm Flare Guns

From the Kennesaw Cannon Company: available at Cheaper Than Dirt / Mississippi Auto Arms
560d1352819816t-12-gauge-ammo-flare-gun-

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Again about the 12 guage flare pistols. If you were boarded that would be a close range situation. I would think a flare fired at close range to the chest could be lethal or at least debilitating. At the very least I would think a flare pistol pointed close range at someone' chest / head would be enough of a deterrent they would take off. What am I missing here?

I know it worked great in the movie, "Dead Calm".

 

And you got to see Nicole Kidman nekkid...how realistic is that in real life?

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I think you guys are mostly talking about US cruising, but just FYI the flare gun adaptors are illegal or a hassle in most all the places that guns are illegal or a hassle (and just carrying ammo is usually a hassle even without any 'gun' at all), and the flare guns themselves are troublesome in a surprising number of places (for example Australia and Indonesia if I remember correctly) - only the 'stick' flares allowed, nothing that is 'reloadable' and looks like a gun.

 

I, for one, was very sad when we decided to leave our saluting cannon behind, too. Though I think it was the correct decision.

 

Of course if you packed that thing with nails or got a real 10 Gauge shotgun shell...you'd probably blow a big hole in your boat.

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Unless you are a Seal or SAS, and you don't care about the people you are cruising with - forget the gun. You will only end joining Peter Blake.

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A youtube demonstrating 2 flare guns as potential self defense weapons.

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Just bring along a couple pressure cookers.....

 

 

 

 

 

Too soon??

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Just bring along a couple pressure cookers.....

 

 

 

 

 

Too soon??

Maybe.

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You don't have to be SF or a SEAL to defend you and yours; just practiced and competent.

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You don't have to be SF or a SEAL to defend you and yours; just practiced and competent.

 

Such a low bar you set.

 

with respect, the only people who seem to be actually practiced and competent as a rule are LEOs, military, and some ex-military. It's alot of work to be competent. Just think of how few fucktards on the road can operate a motor vehicle.

 

Despite many posts OP still has given little idea what he actually wants to do on his circumnav. Unlike in Slocum's era now the only thing you have to worry about in Tierra del Fuego is a wicked Pisco hangover.

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You don't have to be SF or a SEAL to defend you and yours; just practiced and competent.

 

Peter Blake wasn't a Seal or SAS and look where "defending himself & his " got him.

 

Fucking wannabe Rambos!

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Perhaps a topic better suited for another forum but I believe there is worse things than dying. We have to all leave this planet someday. What better way to go than defending someone or something you love. Peter Blake would probably do the same thing over again. Nothing to do with being a wanna be Rambo.

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This is the dilema:

Are you fighting for your life or fighting for your GPS and spotlight?

I would rather not die defending my VHF if I can avoid it and I would rather die defending my family than not.

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You don't have to be SF or a SEAL to defend you and yours; just practiced and competent.

 

Such a low bar you set.

 

with respect, the only people who seem to be actually practiced and competent as a rule are LEOs, military, and some ex-military. It's alot of work to be competent. Just think of how few fucktards on the road can operate a motor vehicle.

 

Despite many posts OP still has given little idea what he actually wants to do on his circumnav. Unlike in Slocum's era now the only thing you have to worry about in Tierra del Fuego is a wicked Pisco hangover.

Actually, if you read my earlier longer post on this subject it's clear that I set the bar rather high for the use of violence and how it isn't as easy as a video game.

 

Here:

 

 

This is an interesting thread with some practical ideas, some quite spectacular in their scope, and some just not workable at all. And, the thing is, the work-ability of some of these aren't the technical implementations but the human factor. Sure, you can set up surveillance systems to monitor your boat, anti-boarding systems to keep uninvited boarders off the boat, and implement various self defense measures if they are on board.

But you have to look at the situation you are facing, or are likely to face, in order to be effective. You also have to look at yourself and what you are able, especially willing, to do.

The continuum of risks is broad. The spectrum could be:

  1. A simple attempt at non-violent theft. This is just stuff. It might be stuff you really like or stuff you need. It's your stuff and you don't want it taken. This kind of theft doesn't want you around. If you are around, they will go where there is no risk of conflict. These are cowardly thefts. They tend to happen to the less vigilant.
  2. It could be theft in mind, backed by defensive violence. This is an added risk that this kind of thief, while not wanting to run into you, will have no problem whatsoever with using violence to escape with your stuff. They may not be willing to kill you but they will fight you directly instead of just trying to run off.
  3. Then there is the theft where they will maim or kill you to get your stuff. They don't care of you are there. They might even plan for you to be there.
  4. Let's not forget boarding for rape, kidnapping or simply outright murder.

Items 1 and 2 can be mitigated by staying away from high-crime areas, being very visible on your boat, practicing vigilance, and making it clear that you protect your boat and the people aboard. These kinds of thieves don't want conflict. They don't usually carry weapons. They are opportunistic in nature. Likely, as others have pointed out, they could also be other cruisers. We like to be a friendly lot but, don't forget that people who pretend to like you can also be casing your place for a future theft. Your best defense here is to deny them the opportunity. They will go hunting somewhere else for friendly and less vigilant folk.

Item 3 represents the horror stories we have heard, where pirates or boarders will have it in their plan to simply kill you and take your stuff. The only defense you have against them is not being where they are, demonstrating a strong enough deterrent that they will go hunting elsewhere, or be capable enough to defend yourself if you are approached or boarded.

Item 4 is pure self defense. They don't want your stuff so much as they want you, or your wife, or your daughter. They are hunting you, not your stuff. Best thing is to be where they are not but, if you present a good target, I hope you are capable of defending yourself.

This brings us to handing out violence terrible and deadly. Are you ready to do that? Are you willing to literally run someone through with a pike? If you carry a firearm, are you well trained in it's use? Do you know how to bring it to bear in a combat situation? How well would your firearm (unless it's an AR variant) fare against a pirate with a AK? I'm not asking these questions from an air of superiority but engaging you to seriously ask yourself these questions. You could have the fanciest pike, the best gun, in the world. If you aren't willing to tear up the center of mass with that pike, or rounds from your weapon, it's useless to you. Keep in mind that video games, as violent as they may be, don't prepare you for face to face violence. Only training or pure survival does that.

There is nothing wrong with talking about self-defense, even using deadly force to defend you or yours from grave bodily injury or death. I support your right to survive, even if it means the unfortunate death of your assailant.

The very serious question is: are you ready to do that?

The protective measures we choose, no matter what they are, are our personal decisions as captains/cruisers/travelers. It matters not so much which tactic or strategy we choose as much as if we are comfortable executing it. It's much like the PFD statement that says the best PFD is the one you will use.

I've been involved in law enforcement and personal security. I've been ready to defend myself and others by bringing violence to bear as effectively and directly as possible. Contrast this with my personal wish for non-violence and it's a bit of cognitive dissonance to those that don't understand it. The thing is, my very job, the places I needed to go, had a high likelihood of violence. Whether it was a felony traffic stop or patrolling a fence line in Iraq, I was placing myself in an environment where violence was likely. I put myself there.

But back to real risks and the likelihood of same for us as cruisers (or homeowners for that matter).

The advantage of this, instead of what I describe above, is that cruisers can usually choose where we cruise. One of the most effective survival tactics is to avoid the risk all together. If you don't fall off the boat, you are less likely to drown. If you don't pass though a gang-infested part of an inner city, you are less likely to be a victim of gang violence. If you don't cruise in areas where poverty or opportunity have contributed to high crime rates, you are less likely to be a victim of violent crime. Now, none of this blames the victim of violence. I can't stand when people do that. It does, however, speak to how we can lessen the likelihood of being a victim of violence.

While I'm perfectly capable of defending me and mine, I'd really rather not if I have a choice.

The world is large. We don't have to go everywhere.

 

Simple fact is, if you are going to consider self defense options, you better be competent. However, as I said in response to the most recent hyperbole, you don't have to be SF or a SEAL. Most of it is mental -- the actual physical skills to be competent only take up about 20% of the equation. The hardest part of the training is mental.

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Blackjenner,

 

Very well reasoned and logical post. Thanks. I think you nailed the issue which is that most of us can tolerate or survive situations (1) and (2). The challenge is to reasonably estimate the probability of a scenario (3) or (4) for a given set of destinations and then make plans accordingly. Yet, in this day and age, situations (3) and (4) are harder to avoid and can be quite random.

 

Best S_D

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In "this day and age they are harder to avoid"? Bullshit. The world's less violent than it's ever been. They aren't random as even a quick perusal of this thread would suggest. But you've got your worldview of everyone not you is out to kill you and that won't change so just come up with your team of seals to protect yourself and stop wasting time.

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Blackjenner,

 

Very well reasoned and logical post. Thanks. I think you nailed the issue which is that most of us can tolerate or survive situations (1) and (2). The challenge is to reasonably estimate the probability of a scenario (3) or (4) for a given set of destinations and then make plans accordingly. Yet, in this day and age, situations (3) and (4) are harder to avoid and can be quite random.

 

Best S_D

Thanks, S_D. I had hoped this would be useful to you, being that you started the thread and some have opined that you had not received any useful answers. This is an interesting subject to many, as is demonstrated by the opinions (some informed by facts and experience and some not) that float around. People want some safety and security and, in some places, that's harder to accomplish.

 

I don't know if I completely agree with you that situations 3 and 4 are harder to avoid. The world has gotten a lot smaller. We sit in our comfortable homes, daysail our boats, and plan to explore the world. News infotainment organizations bring us stories of violence every day. They bring those particular parts of the world closer than they would otherwise be. I think you can make decisions that reduce your chances of encountering 3 and 4, while being prepared to your level of commitment and skills. Most of this is perception based on news stories meant to drive ratings.

 

However, if you know that an area is more risky, and you don't have to go there, you can reduce your risks and live a little less fear driven.

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OK, ¥؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ, and miscut jib, I get your points about Rambo.

 

One question, which I ask you to consider and answer. I have no idea as to your backgrounds, capabilities, or skills, so I'm making zero assumptions here.

 

While the chances of direct violence are mostly uncommon, it can happen at times. So, here is a hypothetical scenario -- not an unreasonable one.

 

A couple of people have boarded your yacht with weapons (pick your type) and are roaming the deck or trying to get in the companionway. For the sake of this hypothetical, let's accept that you are in some reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death.

 

What is a reasonable response to this? What would you do?

 

I'm asking a straightforward and serious question. This is not bait. I'm not looking to criticize you for what choice you may make.

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OK, ¥؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ, and miscut jib, I get your points about Rambo.

 

One question, which I ask you to consider and answer. I have no idea as to your backgrounds, capabilities, or skills, so I'm making zero assumptions here.

 

While the chances of direct violence are mostly uncommon, it can happen at times. So, here is a hypothetical scenario -- not an unreasonable one.

 

A couple of people have boarded your yacht with weapons (pick your type) and are roaming the deck or trying to get in the companionway. For the sake of this hypothetical, let's accept that you are in some reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death.

 

What is a reasonable response to this? What would you do?

 

I'm asking a straightforward and serious question. This is not bait. I'm not looking to criticize you for what choice you may make.

 

The average cruiser is probably middle aged or older. Most young people will not have accumulated the funds to afford a cruising boat & the time to cruise.

 

Most older people cannot move as fast or are as agile as a 21 y.o.

 

If somebody, most likely not alone, has come onto your boat they are most likely there to steal - not with the intention to murder or rape a middle aged or older woman (or man). Theft usually occurs in places where the presence of a big yacht probably represents more money than several families will ever earn in a lifetime.

 

Most likely these "burglars" wil have a gun in their hand. If you appear with a gun in your hand, or they see you pulling one out of a hiding place - they sure as hell ain't going to give you a sporting chance. They will use their gun to defend themselves. They will shoot first. Peter Blake's fate.

 

Loud noise & lots of light are probably the most effective deterrent.

 

I couple I know were cruising in the Solomons. One morning they woke to find all their halyards & reef lines were gone. Removed completely, or cut off as high as they could reach. They had heard nothing. But the odds are in that part of the world the thieves did not have a gun.

 

Before you even put the gun onboard - think about this.......

 

Are you prepared to spend 20 years or more in a jail in a third world country? Not many countries accept the "stand your ground" excuse for killing one of their citizens.

 

PS That is if you haven't been shot dead.

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Thanks for your answer ¥؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ.

 

I don't know if it's worth saying but, I don't think I have advocated, in any post, anywhere, that anyone carry a firearm.

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Binary equation:

1 - People that will run off if you make noise and/or light up the place

2 - People that will kill you no matter what you do.

 

IMHO avoiding areas with any significant population of #2s is the first line of defense.

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Binary equation:

1 - People that will run off if you make noise and/or light up the place

0 - People that will kill you no matter what you do.

 

IMHO avoiding areas with any significant population of 0s is the first line of defense.

 

 

Fixed.

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What is a reasonable response to this? What would you do?

 

I'm asking a straightforward and serious question. This is not bait. I'm not looking to criticize you for what choice you may make.

 

If it gets to the point of a gang of 6 thugs roaming the deck (as it was in Blake's case) the battles lost. I don't see a gun, a laser pointer (unless the burglars are cats, then I'm golden), or bearspray doing much to change the situation for the better, for me. So give in and let it be over. At least per the couple of accounts I've read of the "Water Rats" that killed Blake, they generally just took stuff and pissed off. Here's a decent old writeup: http://www.latitude38.com/features/Blake.htm

 

I'm realistic that as I'm younger, male, and poorer than the median here and the median for world cruisers I'm a less attractive target for robbery. Similarly my experience travelling - solo,low budget pleasure travel often in the developing world - doesn't make me a terribly attractive target for abduction/armed robbery compared to what may face a business traveller in the same places and hence a much different risk perspective. So partly by accident, partly by design I'm unlikely to ever face a "Peter Blake moment".

 

Honestly, how many people will? A 36m expedition yacht without a watch off the coast of a poor city in Brazil? If you are really worried about security go find some superyacht security consultant and get a professional to take care of it. Unless of course Roman Abramovitch's browsing here and could chime in on his security protocol.

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OK, ¥؏ΩӁقڝӃڜ Җ, and miscut jib, I get your points about Rambo.

 

One question, which I ask you to consider and answer. I have no idea as to your backgrounds, capabilities, or skills, so I'm making zero assumptions here.

 

While the chances of direct violence are mostly uncommon, it can happen at times. So, here is a hypothetical scenario -- not an unreasonable one.

 

A couple of people have boarded your yacht with weapons (pick your type) and are roaming the deck or trying to get in the companionway. For the sake of this hypothetical, let's accept that you are in some reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death.

 

What is a reasonable response to this? What would you do?

 

I'm asking a straightforward and serious question. This is not bait. I'm not looking to criticize you for what choice you may make.

That's easy, turn all deck lights on, get on the vhf and call, to get the attention of every boat in the anchorage, as they all monitor their radios 24 -7, and you would have, at least a half dozen dinghy's, at your boat to help you ASAP. Better yet, dont cruise where people get robbed or attacked on a regular basis. Most full time cruisers know these locations and simply dont go there.

 

Also, as there are so many awesome, safe, places to cruise, and you will never get too all of them in a life time, So then, you dont need to make the poor choice, too put yourself, your crew, or your boat at risk.

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all great and fair answers, lacking hyperbole. nice work.

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Loved the laser and cat comment! Gold.

 

We are leaving for Mexico this October. Constant and I mean constant questions from people about how am I going to protect my family. I first give them this link. http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/ Then I say, what happens happens. It is just stuff. Have it. It's insured. If it goes beyond theft, I feel that the situation will shake itself out and that is that. Not going to worry about it. No sense.

I am worried about that goddamn windlass not hauling up the chain. Maybe I should get a new one?

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Loved the laser and cat comment! Gold.

 

We are leaving for Mexico this October. Constant and I mean constant questions from people about how am I going to protect my family. I first give them this link. http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/ Then I say, what happens happens. It is just stuff. Have it. It's insured. If it goes beyond theft, I feel that the situation will shake itself out and that is that. Not going to worry about it. No sense.

I am worried about that goddamn windlass not hauling up the chain. Maybe I should get a new one?

 

You will use your windlass constantly, you will rarely be afforded the opportunity to shoot someone.

 

You could try giving it an overhaul first.

 

BTW keep your eyes open for us, we may be there around then.

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Loved the laser and cat comment! Gold.

 

We are leaving for Mexico this October. Constant and I mean constant questions from people about how am I going to protect my family. I first give them this link. http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/ Then I say, what happens happens. It is just stuff. Have it. It's insured. If it goes beyond theft, I feel that the situation will shake itself out and that is that. Not going to worry about it. No sense.

I am worried about that goddamn windlass not hauling up the chain. Maybe I should get a new one?

 

You will use your windlass constantly, you will rarely be afforded the opportunity to shoot someone.

 

You could try giving it an overhaul first.

 

Boat gets hauled the 1st and I'll pull it then and take it to this guy in Ballard. Racist SOB but does good work. I just don't hang out in the front office for long. The shit he has posted on the walls.....unreal. They would burn his shop down in Chicago.

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Loved the laser and cat comment! Gold.

 

We are leaving for Mexico this October. Constant and I mean constant questions from people about how am I going to protect my family. I first give them this link. http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/ Then I say, what happens happens. It is just stuff. Have it. It's insured. If it goes beyond theft, I feel that the situation will shake itself out and that is that. Not going to worry about it. No sense.

I am worried about that goddamn windlass not hauling up the chain. Maybe I should get a new one?

You will use your windlass constantly, you will rarely be afforded the opportunity to shoot someone.

 

You could try giving it an overhaul first.

Boat gets hauled the 1st and I'll pull it then and take it to this guy in Ballard. Racist SOB but does good work. I just don't hang out in the front office for long. The shit he has posted on the walls.....unreal. They would burn his shop down in Chicago.

I would suggest there are other yards that might better deserve your support.

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Loved the laser and cat comment! Gold.

 

We are leaving for Mexico this October. Constant and I mean constant questions from people about how am I going to protect my family. I first give them this link. http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/ Then I say, what happens happens. It is just stuff. Have it. It's insured. If it goes beyond theft, I feel that the situation will shake itself out and that is that. Not going to worry about it. No sense.

I am worried about that goddamn windlass not hauling up the chain. Maybe I should get a new one?

You will use your windlass constantly, you will rarely be afforded the opportunity to shoot someone.

 

You could try giving it an overhaul first.

Boat gets hauled the 1st and I'll pull it then and take it to this guy in Ballard. Racist SOB but does good work. I just don't hang out in the front office for long. The shit he has posted on the walls.....unreal. They would burn his shop down in Chicago.

I would suggest there are other yards that might better deserve your support.

Nah. CSR ain't racist.

The electric guy is.

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