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alpha

25' day race catamaran under 50K

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I've been thinking lately that this is a neglected market segment. Something for the guy who got too old to trapeze off the transom, has a bit more money now and still wants to go fast. Most of them can't afford a Marstrom 32 at about 150K. What about something a bit more reasonable. Yes we would have to drop the carbon. I'm thinking the catamaran version of a J/70.

 

Possible?

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Something for the guy who got too old to trapeze off the transom, has a bit more money now and still wants to go fast.

 

currently a segment that weta is selling too

 

but you're right

 

some of that market don't find 14knots enough

 

and they are willing to pay 3x times the price with 3x the hassle for 3? more knots

 

seriously though

 

crew, storing, purchase and running costs, are what kills most of these 25' dreams

 

lots of people are still thinking of yesterday

 

when we had lots of time, friends, money and space for this kind of boat

 

the reality right now though, and going forward

 

is that solo, small and cheap is pretty much the only way most of us are going to get reasonable amounts of "sailing time"

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Find a used G32, or a proa like Madness. You will not have to look back. Once you substitute finesse for brute power, the hardware treadmill is no longer needed, and the speed is more elemental . Remember how much fun sailing used to be before OptiMoms. Surfing is not tennis. There is no Bitchen golf music. The closer you get to the wind the more fun you can experience.

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I think an F-24 trimaran might fit the bill. I know of a good one for sale in the SF Bay area advertised at 43K.

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Multi 23

 

This was my answer. A bit much to single hand in big winds, only because getting the sail up and down could be improved a bit.

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It seems I am at least 30 years ahead of the game

 

I suggest you read this

 

http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/articles/11-technical-articles/41-the-development-of-the-micromultihull

 

written in 1990 about the formation of the Micromultihull class in 1982

 

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

 

www.sailingcatamarans.com

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Good evening,

Not a catamaran, but Ian Farrier's F22 tri should come in close to your budgeted price.

They are quick and easy to rig, mast can be stepped by one person and being a Farrier, they are fast. After sailing you can cook a meal and have a good sleep on board too.

Regards,

Multisail.

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Take your choice, fast picnic boat or racer.

 

 

For Sale - A pair of Stilettos () [ No Photo ]

Description: We have two Stiletto 27's - both renovated and significantly upgraded and modified by designer/builder Peter Wormwood (and family & friends...)as personal boats - one for PHRF racing and one for performance daysailing. Both have been significantly reconfigured for better sailing performance and ease of handling. The race boat, Deuce Coupe, has daggerboards in the hulls, a slightly taller rig, and a full suit of healthy racing sails. She continues to be the fastest modified 27 in the local area, winning the majority of the races she enters. This is the perfect boat for a crew that wants to win multihull races now - without going through the lengthly and expensive upgrade process. Performance is on par with a Corsair F28R.

The second boat, Dream Date, is an updated version of what a Stiletto is supposed to be - fast, fun and easy to sail for family and friends. Large winches and double the mainsheet power have been added to make the boat easy for smaller people to handle. The centerline daggerboard has been moved aft and the base of the headstay moved forward to eliminate the heavy weather helm 27's are known for. A myriad of other small details have turned this boat into one fine ride...and she has a beautifully detailed paint scheme that makes her stand out, even at a distance. This boat also comes with a love story...

See Portfolio 2008 for Dream Date photos, Online Info for Deuce Coupe photos. Contact me for more details...Peter

 

http://stiletto.wildjibe.com/

 

 

 

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Good evening,

Not a catamaran, but Ian Farrier's F22 tri should come in close to your budgeted price.

They are quick and easy to rig, mast can be stepped by one person and being a Farrier, they are fast. After sailing you can cook a meal and have a good sleep on board too.

Regards,

Multisail.

Maybe one day, but not soon.

The boat will cost 60k (usd) minimum with shipping, sails, trailer etc. Probably more.

 

But there are numerous used boats that would fit the bill. Used Sprint 750s are under 50k for example, and the Multi 23 would work well.

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is the motive 25 any good?

 

The arrangement of the hulls in a completely horizontal fashion makes me wonder how it will handle any kind of waves. I'm not a naval architect so that's not a comment it's a question.

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I agree... A G32 fits the bill perfecty... 7 to 9 knots upwind... 9 knot reach in 5 TWS. easily single handed in a blow, and I bet it takes less time to trailer launch a G32 than setup and launch a weta. On my boat, all of the sails furl. Back in 91, the price of the boat new was about 33k, depending on the extras. I haven't found a better value than this boat.. especially going by the speed or PHRF Rating per dollar ratio.

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but the market didn't like it

 

so what went wrong there?

 

I don't know... too unconventioal? The first thing everyone says to me is that it is too narrow, but the water ballast gives you plenty of rightint moment... I seriously don't understand why they didn't take off.

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in 1990 they were aiming to keep its price below $35,000

 

http://www.gougeon.com/prosetepoxy/G-32/welcome.html

 

presumably it would now cost about the same as the f22 tri, $60?-$70k

 

but there are so many good value 2nd hand boats about it doesn't seem worth anyone spending years trying to reinvent the wheel

 

 

I agree with your thoughts on second hand boats...

 

Personally, I would rather have a G32 than an F22. The G32 is faster, easier to launch, and in my opinion, easier to single hand. Given the rides I have had on an F25c, the ride on the G32 is also a lot drier. The G32 doesn't have to fold, and is likely lighter. A queen sized bed fits in the doghouse. But, obviously, the boat isn't for everyone.. and I really can't figure out why.

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Not quite in the same league but Jarcat owners seem to love their 8' wide trailer cats. the G32 was/is a really interesting design and I would love to have a sail on one sometime.. From the linked article there were other business reasons why production ceased. Also the the more conventional F24 was priced similarly (low 30k's) when first introduced in the early 90s which would have attracted many buyers in that price range.

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I was looking at the ECO 6 design as being my second choice if I couldn't get a G32. I was also looking at the L-7 design. Given the speed per dollar ratio, I think the L-7 is a great value.

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Hello

we are building RACKMA26 catamaran. Erik Lerouge Design ! with different release.

that could be what you are looking for ?

bests regards

Thierry

 

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My design, similar to the Rackam 26, is the Elf. The builders have now retired and the moulds are available if anyone wants to put it into production. It can be built as an open deck boat or with a cuddy. Daggerboards or keels

 

The moulds are in the UK but can be shipped in a container. price is USD6,000 (GBP4,000) plus a royalty paid on each boat built. Obviously full building plans and designer consultation are included.

 

Pleas email me at my website if you want more details.

 

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

 

www.sailingcatamarans.com

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Allright - would someone please get on Wood's offer?

 

Rackam - I've liked your boats for quite awhile. Perfect little boat to collect pickle dishes, and spend a week with the wife and kids gunk holing around. Daggerboards. MMMMM

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Allright - would someone please get on Wood's offer?

 

Rackam - I've liked your boats for quite awhile. Perfect little boat to collect pickle dishes, and spend a week with the wife and kids gunk holing around. Daggerboards. MMMMM

 

Personally I could do without the condo in the middle and deal with some narrow v-berths in the hulls.

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I'd agree - and my Multi 23 doesn't even have those. But I would love a little boat to knock about with the girls.

 

IIRC, the Rackam has multiple versions. Fixed keel, with berthing, daggers with none, etc.

 

Stateside, you could pick up a Stiletto cheap.

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I like the Rakham and the Woods designs; the ability to fit the boat with or without the condo is appealing. The Big Mast, stripped down race version of the Rakham looks fast.

 

But, personally, I'm not all that interested until I find a cat that is as easy to launch as the G32. I owned a laser 28 before the cat, and I don't miss the cranes, or the need for help when launching and retreving the boat.

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Good evening,

I have stumbled accross an interesting Woods design called the Acorn. About 6.5 meters long. The big downside for me is that it is a marineply boat.

The same boat in foam composites and with soft chines would be more appealing. And quicker to build.

None are afloat yet, but it looks like a nice little cat.

Regards,

Multisail.

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Good evening,

I have stumbled accross an interesting Woods design called the Acorn. About 6.5 meters long. The big downside for me is that it is a marineply boat.

The same boat in foam composites and with soft chines would be more appealing. And quicker to build.

None are afloat yet, but it looks like a nice little cat.

Regards,

Multisail.

Ya think? How would it be quicker to build in foam ??

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Good evening,

I have stumbled accross an interesting Woods design called the Acorn. About 6.5 meters long. The big downside for me is that it is a marineply boat.

The same boat in foam composites and with soft chines would be more appealing. And quicker to build.

None are afloat yet, but it looks like a nice little cat.

Regards,

Multisail.

Ya think? How would it be quicker to build in foam ??

For foam the jig has to be a whole lot more detailed and accurate.That means time and money.

Degree of difficulty just went up a whole lot for average bloke.

Love to hear how you could build a foam and glass boat quicker than a basic ply chine boat.

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Personally I could do without the condo in the middle and deal with some narrow v-berths in the hulls.

There's tons of cats like that. Most of them in fact. This boat then, is probably not what you're looking for.

I like the condo in the middle. Shade, shelter from rain, shelter from spray for the wimmen etc. Can be nice. Not everyone wants the environment of a beachcat trampoline all the time.

 

And I've slept in narrow hull berths. NEver again. (In fact my current tri has narrow 'coffins' for berths." I'd sleep on deck under the 'condo'.

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Lots of people think that. It is not true at all. Not even close.

 

.... The big downside for me is that it is a marineply boat.
The same boat in foam composites and with soft chines would be more appealing. And quicker to build.

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you could always pick up one of the fast 8.5 in New Zealand, Borderline is for sale as a platform & foils only for 30 kiwi pesos chuck a long rig in it for the conditions in oz wam bam 27'er for 50k oz

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Lots of people think that. It is not true at all. Not even close.

 

 

.... The big downside for me is that it is a marineply boat.

The same boat in foam composites and with soft chines would be more appealing. And quicker to build.

 

Good evening,

"quicker" was perhaps not the best word to use.

I have built a Farrier F9 at home so foam composites is what I am familliar with. I found the building of the three hulls according to Farriers vertical foam stripping and building two half hulls which are joined along the centre line, fairly easy and it did not take too

long. Softer chines and the rounded edges which you can achieve elsewhere in the build with foam gives the boat a pro -built look.

So, it is perhaps more a case of what material I am used to working with.

Kindest regards,

Multisail.

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Hello

we are building RACKMA26 catamaran. Erik Lerouge Design ! with different release.

that could be what you are looking for ?

bests regards

Thierry

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=RACKAM+26&safe=off&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=aAV_UcbKO8PAkgXD7YGoAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=939

 

091217rackam26.gif

 

 

Prix 69 859 euros

The Rackham is a bloody nice looking boat based on some well proven hulls. I like the way they've kept the the center cabin big enough to be useful but no more and retained a decent sized cockpit. Unfortunately the 70k euros translates to 107k nz plus freight plus 15% GST = we won't be seeing any around here anytime soon :)

 

541147_358638884180115_1675109067_n.jpg

 

559953_358631064180897_1595670953_n.jpg

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Lots of people think that. It is not true at all. Not even close.

 

.... The big downside for me is that it is a marineply boat.

The same boat in foam composites and with soft chines would be more appealing. And quicker to build.

 

Good evening,

"quicker" was perhaps not the best word to use.

I have built a Farrier F9 at home so foam composites is what I am familliar with. I found the building of the three hulls according to Farriers vertical foam stripping and building two half hulls which are joined along the centre line, fairly easy and it did not take too

long. Softer chines and the rounded edges which you can achieve elsewhere in the build with foam gives the boat a pro -built look.

So, it is perhaps more a case of what material I am used to working with.

Kindest regards,

Multisail.

I totally agree that contoured foam is a great way to build a boat, and will nearly always result in a better looking (or less home built) boat. But building with ply is super fast, and there is FAR less fairing to do (virtually none!) which I bet consumed far more of your time than the actual foam construction itself.

Also in small boats (say 25' and under) ply will be lighter. The skins needed on foam inside and out plus the foam (which is heavier than people think) add up to more weight than a simply plywood panel. You'd have to use carbon to get the same weight, and that kind of defeats the purpose - with the extra money most people would buy a bigger boat..

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Lots of people think that. It is not true at all. Not even close.

 

.... The big downside for me is that it is a marineply boat.

The same boat in foam composites and with soft chines would be more appealing. And quicker to build.

 

Good evening,

"quicker" was perhaps not the best word to use.

I have built a Farrier F9 at home so foam composites is what I am familliar with. I found the building of the three hulls according to Farriers vertical foam stripping and building two half hulls which are joined along the centre line, fairly easy and it did not take too

long. Softer chines and the rounded edges which you can achieve elsewhere in the build with foam gives the boat a pro -built look.

So, it is perhaps more a case of what material I am used to working with.

Kindest regards,

Multisail.

That makes sense although for such a small boat you might not be able to build down to weight in foam without a fairly expensive layup - 4mm gaboon with light glass on one side is pretty hard to beat. You might be interested in this Tim Clissold design - can be built in foam or ply

 

http://www.tcdesign.co.nz/TC_Design/Sailing_Designs/Pages/TC_750.html

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the L7 that's for sale in dana point is one of the most perfectly built objects I've ever seen and L7s sail very well indeed.

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i thought mike had stopped marketing the L7...

 

is that not so or would it be a simple task for him to make some more if there was demand?

 

not that it would work for those of us not stateside

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The L7 was only sold as a kit. I don't think Mike has pushed the kit for a long time, but he would probably put one together if you asked... but I don't know for sure either way.

 

What impressed me about the L7 was the prototype was put together for 6k!

 

What I want to see is a 27' to 30' ply trimaran using the L7 connectives that looks like a minature IDEC or Sodebo. Done in Ply, it could be a light, fast racer, that could use an 18' beachcat rig... kinda like a multihull version of the I550, except... er... longer..

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i thought mike had stopped marketing the L7...

 

is that not so or would it be a simple task for him to make some more if there was demand?

 

not that it would work for those of us not stateside

He never really did market it much in the first place... ;-)

Last I heard he still had the molds for the pans.

 

The L7 was only sold as a kit. I don't think Mike has pushed the kit for a long time, but he would probably put one together if you asked... but I don't know for sure either way.

 

What impressed me about the L7 was the prototype was put together for 6k!

 

What I want to see is a 27' to 30' ply trimaran using the L7 connectives that looks like a minature IDEC or Sodebo. Done in Ply, it could be a light, fast racer, that could use an 18' beachcat rig... kinda like a multihull version of the I550, except... er... longer..

Wasn't even a kit. Just plans and the fiberglass "pans" for the 3 hulls, and a mast. Everything else would be sourced locally.

 

The thing I liked was that a real person, with no building experience, actually could (and did) build one at home for the cost that Mike stated it could be built for. An affordable price ($20k usd on a trailer and gone sailing.)

 

 

The L7 already has much more sail area than an 18' beach cat, so your proposed 27-30' would be very underpowered...

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Wasn't even a kit. Just plans and the fiberglass "pans" for the 3 hulls, and a mast. Everything else would be sourced locally.

 

The thing I liked was that a real person, with no building experience, actually could (and did) build one at home for the cost that Mike stated it could be built for. An affordable price ($20k usd on a trailer and gone sailing.)

At one point Mike was offering to let people make their own pans in his molds. There was a bunch of stuff available on the MM website 4 or 5 years ago but all reference to it seems to have been removed. From memory Mike built the prototype with modified beach cat hulls and rig, then a final version which the kit was based on. There is a good construction site for one of the kit builds here http://home.comcast.net/~ritakend/site/ I don't know how many others have been built.

 

I have an old kit price list for the L7 'kit'. It includes pans, beams, mast, sails, trailer, ply and all the materials needed to build the boat less epoxy, paint and consumables, tramps and fastenings. A lot of these are basic materials rather than fabricated components. If you tick every option it adds up to $17,120. Mike allowed 2k for the rest which may have been a little optimistic but even doubling it was still in the ball park of 20k overall. I think its a really clever design and its a shame it wasn't promoted more. Freight to NZ on the pans and other bits was a killer (on top of exchange rate and local sales tax) when I was looking.

 

I thought a non-folding version done in strip cedar with alloy tube crossbeams would be a cool little pocket rocket. Mike offered to sell me the lines at a reasonable price to do this, but having to get someone else to redesign the boat around that put it in the too hard basket at the time.

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the I beams used for the boat were an off the shelf item. You could buy them in glass or carbon. I never considered alloy tubes, but I suppose tubes would work if the section modulus was there. The I beams were a really clever solution IMP, cost effective, functional, and easily constructed. With a 17' beam you could get a 27' Sodebo scale length... Paint it orange, maybe a ply wingmast and you could have a really cool, fast, cost effective, functional ply rocket. Keep the freeboard low, and it would be wicked light.

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Raps, I completely agree re. the I beams as a trailing/narrow slip solution, but I couldn't source the material here. Also I park my boats on a swing mooring, hence consideration of tubes which would have simply required replacing the designed beam boxes with a sleeve in the center hull and the addition of some stays.

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That's a bummer!

 

I'm not a fan of sidestays, but in your position I can understand why the option would be appealing.

 

Another option for a low cost rocket would be a Decision 35 configuration using the sliding I beams. The 25 to 27' length and 16' to 17' beam with 1/4" ply would give you a light, powerful platform. I suspect it would be faster than the sodebo trimaran, simply because of the lighter platform and the reduced wetted surface.

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Hello

we are building RACKMA26 catamaran. Erik Lerouge Design ! with different release.

that could be what you are looking for ?

bests regards

Thierry

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=RACKAM+26&safe=off&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=aAV_UcbKO8PAkgXD7YGoAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=939

 

091217rackam26.gif

 

 

Prix 69 859 euros

 

The racer versions (from it's taller width) plus the mid section cuddy would be optimal for cruising/racing it seems, but maybe bring in too much weight? Having sailed the MyCat (Lars Oudrup) I really like the width as for the speed potential..

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For those looking for a good second hand/used cat: the KL28 is a nice option too. Fast and cheap (1 for sale in France for 11.500 euro's)

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Who is the Rackham dealer in the US or do we have to go straight to France? I've seen some press here in the US but little web presence. You can get it with or without the bridge deck cabin and it's a good looking boat.

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"That makes sense although for such a small boat you might not be able to build down to weight in foam without a fairly expensive layup - 4mm gaboon with light glass on one side is pretty hard to beat."

 

I agree with that, furthermore 4mm ply boats last a long time. We built our 25ft Gwahir from 4mm ply in 1982, I saw it last year and it was still sailing fast.

 

We had a removable cuddy on our 25ft Merlin. We fitted it when cruising (it allowed my wife to stay out of the rain when sailing and gave us a comfortable double bed). But we took it off when racing. It fitted on our pickup truck and in fact we would sleep in it when on the truck

 

The Elf is a similar cuddy or open deck boat. And the moulds are now at a give away price. Make an offer

 

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

 

www.sailingcatamarans.com

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Thinking about an F25A but a bit unsure about buying a home built boat. Any advice?

Depends on what you mean exactly by home built.

The F25Cs (carbon over balsa) were 'home built' in a group of 8 as I recall. Sort of an amateur production factory.

The subsequent F25As (glass but I don't recall what the coring was, I think it was also balsa) were built in a factory (Colorado Composites) started by some of those same folks.

But if considering on of these boats, a good inspection is needed. There were/are some delam/wet core issues. Not enough to scrap the boat, but repairs can be difficult or costly, so word to the wise.

 

The home built versions are designated F82

 

I agree with the reservation of buying a home built, I can't count how many times I've heard builders do something like "plans called for 8oz 45/45 but I had some 11 oz carbon laying around so I used that, carbon is stronger right?" or making structural changes at whim, or even basics like not even knowing to be concerned about contamination or amine blush, etc. Scary to think about.

 

BUT - there are many really great home built Farriers out there. Time and track record help establish if there were issues, and of course a good expert lookover by someone who knows the boats is important. If they really followed the plans and exercised diligence in their epoxy work, the homebuilt can be even better built than most factory boats.

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Does anyone have experience with keeping an F24 (or any folding Farrier/Corsair) in a slip and folded without lifting the boat up out of the water? Is this manageable? How much of the amas are under water?

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A boat bag or a hydrolift in the pen/slip would solve that issue

How well do boat bags work? I remember reading that Stephen Barton was using one on "Big Bird" but have not heard any updates? It looks like a pretty good idea.

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That's just the thing, I haven't seen any pictures of F boats with antifoul on the sides.

 

i have seen a pic somewhere on the web

 

but it's not that apparent as you can get antifoul in near white

 

but really it just shows how few people leave their farriers folded and in the water

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Most I've seen are either kept unfolded in the water or folded dry sailed

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A boat bag or a hydrolift in the pen/slip would solve that issue

How well do boat bags work? I remember reading that Stephen Barton was using one on "Big Bird" but have not heard any updates? It looks like a pretty good idea.

 

 

A bag built right should work fine with only a minimal amount of wiping when the ama's are out. They are relatively cheap as well.

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A boat bag or a hydrolift in the pen/slip would solve that issue

How well do boat bags work? I remember reading that Stephen Barton was using one on "Big Bird" but have not heard any updates? It looks like a pretty good idea.

 

It works OK, but takes about 10+ minutes of fiddling around when leaving or returning to the mooring; more than on a mono because the tramp makes the task of getting the bag aft a bit more complicated.

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