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hobie18rich

Foiling Torch/Laser

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I have been looking for a while with no luck to find extruded aluminum foil strus. Does anyone know of a good source? Thanks for the help.

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There's an easier and cheaper way to foiil http://skyski.com/store/

 

 

I didn't know ski boats were that cheap. Unless it's an OPB scenario.....

 

My bad, carry on.

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I have been looking for a while with no luck to find extruded aluminum foil strus. Does anyone know of a good source? Thanks for the help.

In our lab we use the aluminum extrusions used for spreaders as fairings in the tow tank. Not a bad option. I'll have to dig to find where we got all the stock.

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I have been looking for a while with no luck to find extruded aluminum foil strus. Does anyone know of a good source? Thanks for the help.

Why not wait until the Laser/Torch set is out, and buy those?

 

Somebody out there is going to figure out that kits for existing planing boats will sell, and if the $$$ is right, ka ching!!

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I have been looking for a while with no luck to find extruded aluminum foil strus. Does anyone know of a good source? Thanks for the help.

 

I found some at the (what was it ?) Bladerider manufacturer. Anyway, check out some of makers of the sit in foilers made 10 years or so ago. They might have extrusions lying around when they halted production. Of course, now they'll be realizing they may be sitting in a goldmine. Will Hobie 14s and 16s be able to foil on rudders only?

 

Kits! Kits! We need kits!

 

What happens when Forespar catches on to this?

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'Tis not PSA's toy but their involvement is for obvious reasons.

The guys behind it are seasoned inventors and are very atuned to patent issues.

Understand it will be sold as a packaged kit to slot into a std boat and is definitely geared for mass production

It was due for release last Christmas but tooling tweaking had been required

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I am more interested in buying raw stock straight from a supplier. I am building my own foils for a Kiteboard and need a custom setup. The foiled struts are the only thing I have been unable to source. Any ideas or leads would be greatly appreciated.

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Knowing what the inside structure looks like in a laser hull...I can't believe the hull is strong enough to stand on its center board for very long before it fails.

 

Anyone else feel the same way?

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At first, but what I thought at first was a fillet around the edge of the bottom of the DB well looks more like a pad around the hull/ DB/ foil joint to spread out the load more to the internal structure, deck and hull? Maybe it is the bottom part of an extra internal sleeve from the bottom of the hull to the deck inside the DB Case that the foil sits inside? Might be heavy, but I want to believe that, at least because the alternative would be a bit cynical on their part....

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I am more interested in buying raw stock straight from a supplier. I am building my own foils for a Kiteboard and need a custom setup. The foiled struts are the only thing I have been unable to source. Any ideas or leads would be greatly appreciated.

 

You can try, but I've had poor luck finding existing extrusions in the exact shape I want. And I have no idea what the correct NACA shape is for a hydrofoil of this sort.

 

Aluminum extrusion companies tend to have on-staff toolmakers, to make the dies that shape the part. They like to charge customers for the die they are going to use, and that tooling is usually exclusive to that customer. So XYZ extrusions may have made material in your shape, but they can't sell it to you; they would be happy to make you your own tool, for your own foil.... Got $10K per shape?

 

 

I've been toying with getting a laser to play around with, and this might be just the thing to push me!

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the alu wings on the kite/tow boards i have seen have been castings, from the look of them.

laser needs to be rebuilt for these loads, at least in trunk/step/cockpit and gudgeon areas. and then you might as well cut off the flange for aero.

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What does a Moth cost? If this works and is mass produced, fairly inexpensively, the price of used Lasers should go way up, I reckon? And, so what if you have to reinforce the gudgeons and centerboard trunk? You might not be able to legally race the boat in standard rig then, but a cheap foiler would be a friggin blast!

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rebuilding a laser interior is not too challenging other than a certain amount of cutting grinding sanding, gudgeons can be just a piece of plywood

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'Tis not PSA's toy but their involvement is for obvious reasons.

The guys behind it are seasoned inventors and are very atuned to patent issues.

Understand it will be sold as a packaged kit to slot into a std boat and is definitely geared for mass production

It was due for release last Christmas but tooling tweaking had been required

 

Patent issues? Much prior art?

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I am more interested in buying raw stock straight from a supplier. I am building my own foils for a Kiteboard and need a custom setup. The foiled struts are the only thing I have been unable to source. Any ideas or leads would be greatly appreciated.

You can try, but I've had poor luck finding existing extrusions in the exact shape I want. And I have no idea what the correct NACA shape is for a hydrofoil of this sort.

 

Aluminum extrusion companies tend to have on-staff toolmakers, to make the dies that shape the part. They like to charge customers for the die they are going to use, and that tooling is usually exclusive to that customer. So XYZ extrusions may have made material in your shape, but they can't sell it to you; they would be happy to make you your own tool, for your own foil.... Got $10K per shape?

 

 

I've been toying with getting a laser to play around with, and this might be just the thing to push me!

--------------------

John Ilett ("Fastacraft") ( http://www.fastacraft.com/ )in Australia or Hydrosail in the USA( https://sites.google.com/site/hydrosail/HydroSail-Home )

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Go to the AC youtube channel and watch the race replay-I think your Laser Foiler was mentioned early on in a discussion of foiling. And congratulations on a great idea! Can you say a bit about how the boat is launched-please. Are the foils retractable?

 

Here it is:

 

 

 

 

Props to you.

Just got mentioned on AC Broadcast.

 

Way to go!!

Do you have a link to this please?

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why isn't this thread in dinghy anarchy? it should be moved.

 

why isn't this thread in dinghy anarchy? it should be moved.

 

 

Cuz, if this works and is reasonably inexpensive, it is WAY BIGGER than Dinghy Anarchy and belongs here...

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Go to the AC youtube channel and watch the race replay-I think your Laser Foiler was mentioned early on in a discussion of foiling. And congratulations on a great idea! Can you say a bit about how the boat is launched-please. Are the foils retractable?

 

Here it is:

 

 

 

 

Props to you.

Just got mentioned on AC Broadcast.

 

Way to go!!

Do you have a link to this please?

Doug quoting the AC channel does not make you look smarter or more knowledgeable on foiling.. Particularly when you can't even build an RC sailboat in under 3 mos and keep showing pictures of things you built that look like they've been soaking in a latrine for a month.

 

Fuck off and go back to the little RC world you live in and leave actual sailing forums to folks that sail

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Nice!

 

For all the haters of SA:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=100637

 

 

Can this be considered AC trickle down?

 

Why would it be AC trickle down? Foiling came to the AC years after it came to dinghies and small multis, and the foiling Laser uses a very different set of foils.

 

The AC's reputation as a creator of technology is enormously over-rated; just about all the true innovations come from small boats. Some of those innovations eventually trickle UP to the AC.

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the vid people have referenced is a radial sail. Even if it can't foil upwind I don't care for now. Also who knows a cool new class could develop. Minimum age of the "used" hull is x, foil kit, foam removal allowed is y, strengthening is z. Now add into that the hull can't cost more that_ and we have a real winner! If the breeze was a reach this thing would rock for the Connecticut River race.

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Posting the pictures and then making us all wait for details is just mean...

 

Come one, take a day off from playing with it and make a website for it or something!

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Give it a rest will you, nothing Doug has said here here is inappropriate. But your continued abuse is just tiresome, there are lots of positives here to discuss.

 

 

Go to the AC youtube channel and watch the race replay-I think your Laser Foiler was mentioned early on in a discussion of foiling. And congratulations on a great idea! Can you say a bit about how the boat is launched-please. Are the foils retractable?

 

Here it is:

 

 

 

 

Props to you.

Just got mentioned on AC Broadcast.

 

Way to go!!

Do you have a link to this please?

Doug quoting the AC channel does not make you look smarter or more knowledgeable on foiling.. Particularly when you can't even build an RC sailboat in under 3 mos and keep showing pictures of things you built that look like they've been soaking in a latrine for a month.

 

Fuck off and go back to the little RC world you live in and leave actual sailing forums to folks that sail

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The real test of these foils is to take the Laser with foils out in a windward/leeward race against standard Lasers and make it in 20 knots if need be.

 

I'm a doubter since a Laser is a ton of lard compared to a foiling moth and sailing them upwind with a dacron sail on foils is gonna be a stretch.

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Might still work if can not foil upwind. It is hardly possible to make a laser slower upwind and if can foil at 20 kn downwind at say 140-150 true???

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Somebody out there is going to figure out that kits for existing planing boats will sell, and if the $$$ is right, ka ching!!

It isn't the first time it's been tried. RS600FF launched in 2007. Pretty much died a death.

 

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I think it's a great idea. Don't expect formula one performance from it but for a bit of a blast in a shitter you don't care for it could be lots of fun. I really don't know how the gudgeons and cb case will hold up though. They will be massively loaded compared to displacement sailing.

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I would be very concerned about the plastic gugeons, I used to replace mine every season as they were prone to failing

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I would be very concerned about the plastic gugeons, I used to replace mine every season as they were prone to failing

 

 

I think most agree that reinforcement will be required to CB and rudder areas...

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Whoooo !

 

I need you right here, by my side
You're everything I'm not in my life.
We're indestructable, we are untouchable
Nothing can take us down tonight (from sailing)
You are so beautiful, it should be criminal
that you could be mine.

And we will make it out alive
I'll promise you this love will never die!

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Somebody out there is going to figure out that kits for existing planing boats will sell, and if the $$$ is right, ka ching!!

It isn't the first time it's been tried. RS600FF launched in 2007. Pretty much died a death.

 

True enough. But I think the perception was that the 600 required advanced technique as a non foiler, and foiling made it even more fiddly, whether that was true or not. That perceptual barrier does not exist with the Laser/Torch. It's taking a known quantity that thousands already sail well, and adding a dose of élan. The foils are pretty big, and I bet, while not as performance oriented as the 600 or Moth, very forgiving. If you think about foiling, it's gone from experimental high performance to the Hobie/ Windrider sit down kind of automatic foiling to the 600/Moth athleticism now to something in the middle withe L/T foiler. Regression to the mean? Usually works. But I think it's not a stretch to think it might encourage folks to progress gradually to more sophisticated stuff- going from the known to the relative unknown.

 

Might not be too satisfying for the pioneers of the cutting edge of the sport, but that's planet earth......

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Word, though realistically not much racing happens in 20 plus. Run the test in 10-15 to be fair. I would guess the foiler gets crushed but would love to be proven wrong. Still, priced right, I would buy one for giggles and shits. Novelty item IMHO. Especially when they keep ducking the question: "will it foil upwind?"

The real test of these foils is to take the Laser with foils out in a windward/leeward race against standard Lasers and make it in 20 knots if need be.

 

I'm a doubter since a Laser is a ton of lard compared to a foiling moth and sailing them upwind with a dacron sail on foils is gonna be a stretch.

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one trick pony

 

lipstick on a pig is still a pig

 

and a foil on a pig is still a pig

---------------------------------------------------

 

if dalton and ETNZ still can't go upwind on foils ( still out with the jury if it can be faster VMG) do you really think a laser will ?

 

I say this pony can foil on a reach ONLY

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I see no reason the Laser Foiler wouldn't foil upwind. Veal Heel increases righting moment considerably so it's only a question of how much wind it will take. I can see Hansen selling a bunch of squaretops! And, again, I don't think speed is that important-flying is the thing-the lighter air the better.

I wish these guys a lot of luck and hope they getted it sorted well.

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Funny how you changed your tune - a few days ago you doubted that it was possible at all to get a Laser foiling.....................did your law of physics change?

I see no reason the Laser Foiler wouldn't foil upwind. Veal Heel increases righting moment considerably so it's only a question of how much wind it will take. I can see Hansen selling a bunch of squaretops! And, again, I don't think speed is that important-flying is the thing-the lighter air the better.

I wish these guys a lot of luck and hope they getted it sorted well.

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I see no reason the Laser Foiler wouldn't foil upwind. Veal Heel increases righting moment considerably so it's only a question of how much wind it will take. I can see Hansen selling a bunch of squaretops! And, again, I don't think speed is that important-flying is the thing-the lighter air the better.

I wish these guys a lot of luck and hope they getted it sorted well.

 

try to avoid the design spiral. More power upwind will require a mast that will take the power without bending in half, which will require a mast step that can handle the power, which will require a ring frame so you don't rip the deck off, etc, etc. Kinda loses the "KISS" principle doesn't it?

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Funny how you changed your tune - a few days ago you doubted that it was possible at all to get a Laser foiling.....................did your law of physics change?

I see no reason the Laser Foiler wouldn't foil upwind. Veal Heel increases righting moment considerably so it's only a question of how much wind it will take. I can see Hansen selling a bunch of squaretops! And, again, I don't think speed is that important-flying is the thing-the lighter air the better.

I wish these guys a lot of luck and hope they getted it sorted well.

 

I never doubted, for a second, that a Laser could be made to foil! Had a few questions about this particular project that seem to have been mostly answered.

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Might not be too satisfying for the pioneers of the cutting edge of the sport, but that's planet earth......

 

I'm far from being a pioneer of the cutting edge and would be keen to try foiling while my body will still take it. But I know quite a few Mothists and if I compare what they do (including the endless fiddling and repairs!) with what's now an aged, heavy and fairly soft platform, it doesn't make sense to me.

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Riiiiight:

 

 

Doug Lord

Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:11 PM

Hope it's real(which seems very unlikely)-if it is it could be a Peoples Foiler. bla, bla, bla


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Funny how you changed your tune - a few days ago you doubted that it was possible at all to get a Laser foiling.....................did your law of physics change?

I see no reason the Laser Foiler wouldn't foil upwind. Veal Heel increases righting moment considerably so it's only a question of how much wind it will take. I can see Hansen selling a bunch of squaretops! And, again, I don't think speed is that important-flying is the thing-the lighter air the better.

I wish these guys a lot of luck and hope they getted it sorted well.

 

I never doubted, for a second, that a Laser could be made to foil! Had a few questions about this particular project that seem to have been mostly answered.

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I see no reason the Laser Foiler wouldn't foil upwind. Veal Heel increases righting moment considerably so it's only a question of how much wind it will take. I can see Hansen selling a bunch of squaretops! And, again, I don't think speed is that important-flying is the thing-the lighter air the better.

I wish these guys a lot of luck and hope they getted it sorted well.

try to avoid the design spiral. More power upwind will require a mast that will take the power without bending in half, which will require a mast step that can handle the power, which will require a ring frame so you don't rip the deck off, etc, etc. Kinda loses the "KISS" principle doesn't it?

More power is not the problem, having enough righting moment to handle it is! With such a short main foil and such a narrow beam, even with the boat healed to weather the effective gain in righting moment will still be small, the other problem is that when you are foiling upwind the apparent wind speed is huge, so getting rid of power becomes more important. Having some form of bolt on wings will probably be the only way it will foil upwind.

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one trick pony

 

lipstick on a pig is still a pig

 

and a foil on a pig is still a pig

---------------------------------------------------

 

if dalton and ETNZ still can't go upwind on foils ( still out with the jury if it can be faster VMG) do you really think a laser will ?

 

I say this pony can foil on a reach ONLY

There's no prob if they can only foil on a reach...apparent wind will drive downwind angles that are close to standard at a much faster pace...it's why the AC boats don't need spins.

 

Someone probably already posted this...sorry if repetitive.

 

C

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try to avoid the design spiral. More power upwind will require a mast that will take the power without bending in half, which will require a mast step that can handle the power, which will require a ring frame so you don't rip the deck off, etc, etc. Kinda loses the "KISS" principle doesn't it?

 

On foils, the boat is slipperier that a boat in the water, so my guess is the loads on the mast step will be in the range of what it sees now. More power = more speed rather than more load on the boat because of the reduction of drag on the hull. Unless I'm missing something on the equations bouncing around in my head...

 

The highest loads will be in coming off the foils bow down crash style, then things might get ugly structurally... But if it can survive stuffing the bow into a wave at full speed now, it might be ok. Time will tell!

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I see no reason the Laser Foiler wouldn't foil upwind. Veal Heel increases righting moment considerably so it's only a question of how much wind it will take. I can see Hansen selling a bunch of squaretops! And, again, I don't think speed is that important-flying is the thing-the lighter air the better.

I wish these guys a lot of luck and hope they getted it sorted well.

try to avoid the design spiral. More power upwind will require a mast that will take the power without bending in half, which will require a mast step that can handle the power, which will require a ring frame so you don't rip the deck off, etc, etc. Kinda loses the "KISS" principle doesn't it?

More power is not the problem, having enough righting moment to handle it is! With such a short main foil and such a narrow beam, even with the boat healed to weather the effective gain in righting moment will still be small, the other problem is that when you are foiling upwind the apparent wind speed is huge, so getting rid of power becomes more important. Having some form of bolt on wings will probably be the only way it will foil upwind.

 

I'd guess ( based on other design work I've done) that the increase in RM is likely to be on the order of 30-35% with Veal Heel. Thats pretty substantial for no increase in weight....

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There is no structure in a laser hull...just a shell. Selling a foil kit is a great way to stimulate hull sales.

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Might not be too satisfying for the pioneers of the cutting edge of the sport, but that's planet earth......

I'm far from being a pioneer of the cutting edge and would be keen to try foiling while my body will still take it. But I know quite a few Mothists and if I compare what they do (including the endless fiddling and repairs!) with what's now an aged, heavy and fairly soft platform, it doesn't make sense to me.

"it doesn't make sense to me."

 

"it" = Laser/Torch? "it"= Moth? I guess you could see "it" either way. ;)

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I may be able to answer some of he above questions. I know both the gurus involved and that they have been working on this proect. I have not seen any of the kit but spoke to one of these people a few days ago. This waht I understand from that conversation.

 

The Laser does not need any modification, not even any additional screw holes. There is an insert which is bolted through the centreboard case, into which the foil strut is inserted and which has the necessary fittings to retain the foil in place and control the angle of attack. The rudder is installed into a standard Laser rudder box. They do not rely on the Laser bent tab to retain the rudder but a snail pin through a hole as is std Laser practice at least in Aust.

 

It is possible to insert the foil only from the bottom but it can be slid up so that the boat can be floated in shallow water. So far they have launched the Laser, walked to shallow water, rolled the boat over to insert the foil, then sailed out to deeper water before lowering the foil and rudder to foiling depth. Both the horizontals rotate on the T joint, the wand controlling the main foil angle, but somehow the rudder foil is free to rotate until the rudder is fully down. WardI has used this main foil system on his Moth for some years.

 

They are very pleased with the downwind performance so far but know that upwind will be more of a challenge and are working on techniques to achieve upwind foiling. They have some experienced foiling people planning a to test ride and provide input.

 

This is a serious effort, they have had tooling made and will shortly be doing some serious marketting. It may not be for everyone but with so many Lasers in existance only a small percentage of owners is still a viable market.

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I may be able to answer some of he above questions. I know both the gurus involved and that they have been working on this proect. I have not seen any of the kit but spoke to one of these people a few days ago. This waht I understand from that conversation.

 

The Laser does not need any modification, not even any additional screw holes. There is an insert which is bolted through the centreboard case, into which the foil strut is inserted and which has the necessary fittings to retain the foil in place and control the angle of attack. The rudder is installed into a standard Laser rudder box. They do not rely on the Laser bent tab to retain the rudder but a snail pin through a hole as is std Laser practice at least in Aust.

 

It is possible to insert the foil only from the bottom but it can be slid up so that the boat can be floated in shallow water. So far they have launched the Laser, walked to shallow water, rolled the boat over to insert the foil, then sailed out to deeper water before lowering the foil and rudder to foiling depth. Both the horizontals rotate on the T joint, the wand controlling the main foil angle, but somehow the rudder foil is free to rotate until the rudder is fully down. WardI has used this main foil system on his Moth for some years.

 

They are very pleased with the downwind performance so far but know that upwind will be more of a challenge and are working on techniques to achieve upwind foiling. They have some experienced foiling people planning a to test ride and provide input.

 

This is a serious effort, they have had tooling made and will shortly be doing some serious marketting. It may not be for everyone but with so many Lasers in existance only a small percentage of owners is still a viable market.

You got it

Have seen some of the bits and tooling and understand that this is a serious effort.

For the talked about price I'm sure that the mothies and others will make it work up wind.

In the meantime the rest of the Laser world can have awesome fun with out compromising the legality and integrity of their boats

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The foiling Laser Torch Kirby is not the People's Foiler. Truly, the People's Foiler will come when you can mod a MacGregor 26 to foil - this will be the full-on turbo mod, including carbon rig and bowsprit, new foiling keel and rudders.

Could this be the fabled 5th Mode?

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There is no structure in a laser hull...just a shell. Selling a foil kit is a great way to stimulate hull sales.

That is funny. :D

 

Could explain why PSA got involved and supported this. :o

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I may be able to answer some of he above questions. I know both the gurus involved and that they have been working on this proect. I have not seen any of the kit but spoke to one of these people a few days ago. This waht I understand from that conversation.

 

The Laser does not need any modification, not even any additional screw holes. There is an insert which is bolted through the centreboard case, into which the foil strut is inserted and which has the necessary fittings to retain the foil in place and control the angle of attack. The rudder is installed into a standard Laser rudder box. They do not rely on the Laser bent tab to retain the rudder but a snail pin through a hole as is std Laser practice at least in Aust.

 

It is possible to insert the foil only from the bottom but it can be slid up so that the boat can be floated in shallow water. So far they have launched the Laser, walked to shallow water, rolled the boat over to insert the foil, then sailed out to deeper water before lowering the foil and rudder to foiling depth. Both the horizontals rotate on the T joint, the wand controlling the main foil angle, but somehow the rudder foil is free to rotate until the rudder is fully down. WardI has used this main foil system on his Moth for some years.

 

They are very pleased with the downwind performance so far but know that upwind will be more of a challenge and are working on techniques to achieve upwind foiling. They have some experienced foiling people planning a to test ride and provide input.

 

This is a serious effort, they have had tooling made and will shortly be doing some serious marketting. It may not be for everyone but with so many Lasers in existance only a small percentage of owners is still a viable market.

Cool. Great post and useful info. Tx. Any idea if they plan to market globally, when and at what estimated price point?

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I see no reason the Laser Foiler wouldn't foil upwind. Veal Heel increases righting moment considerably so it's only a question of how much wind it will take. I can see Hansen selling a bunch of squaretops! And, again, I don't think speed is that important-flying is the thing-the lighter air the better.

I wish these guys a lot of luck and hope they getted it sorted well.

try to avoid the design spiral. More power upwind will require a mast that will take the power without bending in half, which will require a mast step that can handle the power, which will require a ring frame so you don't rip the deck off, etc, etc. Kinda loses the "KISS" principle doesn't it?

More power is not the problem, having enough righting moment to handle it is! With such a short main foil and such a narrow beam, even with the boat healed to weather the effective gain in righting moment will still be small, the other problem is that when you are foiling upwind the apparent wind speed is huge, so getting rid of power becomes more important. Having some form of bolt on wings will probably be the only way it will foil upwind.

 

I'd guess ( based on other design work I've done) that the increase in RM is likely to be on the order of 30-35% with Veal Heel. Thats pretty substantial for no increase in weight....

And Voila!!! there Goes Dougie doing the Dougie thing:

 

"other design work I've done"

 

you mean the scribblings on paper that you had to hand to someone else to draft "professionally" in CAD?

Or the foiler you built that wouldn't foil?

Or the RC trimaran where you couldn't even cut the sails yourself and it still is not in the water despite you claiming you would have it sailing "by the end of the month" some three months ago?

 

Doug you've done shite for design work - you have no clue about this: the Teknologika guys just told you your assessment was wrong over in DA.

 

Sit down, shut up and let adults talk

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I want one now!, have the Hansen sail that will make it all perfect, plz advise when can buy and how soon!

post-39147-0-26398400-1375979465_thumb.jpg

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I may be able to answer some of he above questions. I know both the gurus involved and that they have been working on this proect. I have not seen any of the kit but spoke to one of these people a few days ago. This waht I understand from that conversation.

 

The Laser does not need any modification, not even any additional screw holes. There is an insert which is bolted through the centreboard case, into which the foil strut is inserted and which has the necessary fittings to retain the foil in place and control the angle of attack. The rudder is installed into a standard Laser rudder box. They do not rely on the Laser bent tab to retain the rudder but a snail pin through a hole as is std Laser practice at least in Aust.

 

It is possible to insert the foil only from the bottom but it can be slid up so that the boat can be floated in shallow water. So far they have launched the Laser, walked to shallow water, rolled the boat over to insert the foil, then sailed out to deeper water before lowering the foil and rudder to foiling depth. Both the horizontals rotate on the T joint, the wand controlling the main foil angle, but somehow the rudder foil is free to rotate until the rudder is fully down. WardI has used this main foil system on his Moth for some years.

 

They are very pleased with the downwind performance so far but know that upwind will be more of a challenge and are working on techniques to achieve upwind foiling. They have some experienced foiling people planning a to test ride and provide input.

 

This is a serious effort, they have had tooling made and will shortly be doing some serious marketting. It may not be for everyone but with so many Lasers in existance only a small percentage of owners is still a viable market.

 

Phil, thanks for the great info!

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I want one now!, have the Hansen sail that will make it all perfect, plz advise when can buy and how soon!

 

 

+1 - would love to have for the kids at the Jr program to kick around in after class this winter.

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I want one now!, have the Hansen sail that will make it all perfect, plz advise when can buy and how soon!

 

 

+1 - would love to have for the kids at the Jr program to kick around in after class this winter.

Occams we know you wantt to put a set on the multi 23

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Well I for one would likely buy a set for next year. The club I sail at has got a bunch of beater Lasers that would be just perfect for this

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I may be able to answer some of he above questions. I know both the gurus involved and that they have been working on this proect. I have not seen any of the kit but spoke to one of these people a few days ago. This waht I understand from that conversation.

 

The Laser does not need any modification, not even any additional screw holes. There is an insert which is bolted through the centreboard case, into which the foil strut is inserted and which has the necessary fittings to retain the foil in place and control the angle of attack. The rudder is installed into a standard Laser rudder box. They do not rely on the Laser bent tab to retain the rudder but a snail pin through a hole as is std Laser practice at least in Aust.

 

It is possible to insert the foil only from the bottom but it can be slid up so that the boat can be floated in shallow water. So far they have launched the Laser, walked to shallow water, rolled the boat over to insert the foil, then sailed out to deeper water before lowering the foil and rudder to foiling depth. Both the horizontals rotate on the T joint, the wand controlling the main foil angle, but somehow the rudder foil is free to rotate until the rudder is fully down. WardI has used this main foil system on his Moth for some years.

 

They are very pleased with the downwind performance so far but know that upwind will be more of a challenge and are working on techniques to achieve upwind foiling. They have some experienced foiling people planning a to test ride and provide input.

 

This is a serious effort, they have had tooling made and will shortly be doing some serious marketting. It may not be for everyone but with so many Lasers in existance only a small percentage of owners is still a viable market.

 

 

So standard CB trunk and rudder fastenings will handle the added stress of lifting the boat, and the much higher loads?

 

Any idea on pricing? I need to find a good used Laser before they become scarcer and costlier....

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Nah - the M23 is getting it's daggerboard right now. I'll save my pennies and get some sort of lifting foil set next year. Now that I've got Moore working on my boat, the wallets the limit!

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one trick pony

 

lipstick on a pig is still a pig

 

and a foil on a pig is still a pig

---------------------------------------------------

 

if dalton and ETNZ still can't go upwind on foils ( still out with the jury if it can be faster VMG) do you really think a laser will ?

 

I say this pony can foil on a reach ONLY

There's no prob if they can only foil on a reach...apparent wind will drive downwind angles that are close to standard at a much faster pace...it's why the AC boats don't need spins.

 

Someone probably already posted this...sorry if repetitive.

 

C

 

 

.

I said UPWIND, can you phrase your reply around that ?

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Get on it Rich!!!

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actually if the class continues on its present course then what else will there be to do with all the old boats lying around? buy a hansen rig and a foiling pak, imwould consider it before reinvesting in more shoddy crap from LP with less racing to engage in as dinghy sailing is abandoned by adults in favor of getting fat and lazy so the entitled youts can have their shot at the glory they deserve

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In for a kit!!!! This is awesome, exactly what this class needs.

 

Since you say upwind is still difficult, how does the boat handle with the hull in the water with the foils on it?

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In for a kit!!!! This is awesome, exactly what this class needs.

 

Since you say upwind is still difficult, how does the boat handle with the hull in the water with the foils on it?

Good question...

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In for a kit!!!! This is awesome, exactly what this class needs.

 

Since you say upwind is still difficult, how does the boat handle with the hull in the water with the foils on it?

Good question...

 

Based on my current experience (mothie type) and things the moth world learned in the early foiling days - I'd guess the boat is

1) more stable (if that is even possible). A low-riding moth foiler is more stable than a low-riding non-foiler. More stuff underwater = more resistance to movement / roll. If low-riding, it is actually easier to sail a foiler than a non-foiler moth.

2) slower. When we still had mixed fleets (foiler / non-foiler) racing, in marginal conditions the non-foilers were faster hull borne than the foilers were. All that lifting stuff = drag when you aren't flying.

 

So I'd expect slower upwind (hull borne) and slower downwind (unless flying). The question becomes "is the speed advantage foiling downwind enough to overcome the speed deficit upwind?"

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Just got this from PSA. More info to follow as I get it.
Goinging on line when our website comes back online, bad time for a melt down.
They are $5800 inc GST Rec Retail in oz.

You can order as of next week and all technical data will go online.

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Out of my price range for sure?

 

Forgive my naivete, but what is a Torch? Similar boat to Laser? Down Under name for Laser?

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Out of my price range for sure?

 

Forgive my naivete, but what is a Torch? Similar boat to Laser? Down Under name for Laser?

 

The Kirby name for the same design as the whole lawsuit builder thread covers.

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Thanks, just googled as well:

 

The issue is supply of the Kirby sailboat and parts to sailors worldwide. After numerous attempts, Bruce Kirby felt he had no choice but to withdraw Laser brand building rights in North America and Europe. Through the Kirby Torch brand, sailors will be able to maintain access to hulls, parts and the one-design aspect which is the touchstone of the Kirby sailboat design. To accelerate this outcome, the Kirby Torch builders agree that all original ISAF-plaqued Lasers that include Bruce Kirby's name are class legal in the Kirby Torch fleet

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Trouble is that $5800 Aus is more than 99% of second hand Lasers. Stick it on a new boat and I imagine you invalidate any hull warrantee.

 

Out of interest, are the Hansen rigs any good? Look like they might be fun in a decent breeze, but what are they like in 4-10kts?

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Way way too expensive.pay a bit more and get a moth, we know it will foil upwind as well and the rigs are quite bulletproof. If you hit a fish with the rudder foil on the Laser it will remove the gugeons.

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If paired with the Hansen rig this concept would be awesome!

 

I do also worry about the structural integrity of a Laser while foiling.....

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Trouble is that $5800 Aus is more than 99% of second hand Lasers. Stick it on a new boat and I imagine you invalidate any hull warrantee

Definitely missed the market price point on this. The market is weekend warriors sailing 5-10 year old boats with non-legal sails. These people aren't going to throw $6k at a foil package for their boat.

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If the price was in the $2,500 ballpark I would have some serious interest, what would It take for most rec sailors?

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If they only hope to sell 100 units then maybe the price is right, however at a much lower price point they could possibly move 2000 + units......

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I now have the installation manual and all the info for the system. Can't get the PDF files to download here to post.

 

Doesn't load up the hull and doesn't invalidate the warranty. That's what I got from PSA This morning.

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Some of us need a definition of "up wind". Less than 90 deg true seams like too low a bar. The square riggers were still usefull. What were they, 75? What are the Moths doing? Within 15 degrees of a moth at this stage, with the std sail, I think is a full win.

 

Personaly, this rocks at any angle! If you have to beat it to weather with a stick and it can do it (non foiling) AT ALL, it still rocks.

 

Do we realy want to get back into the "sport boats planing up wing" fiasco again?

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I now have the installation manual and all the info for the system. Can't get the PDF files to download here to post.

Doesn't load up the hull and doesn't invalidate the warranty. That's what I got from PSA This morning.

Ha! Tell that to Rastegar!