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Doug Lord

Laser Foiler!

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Is it just me or does that rudder look transparent near the waterline??? Photoshop?

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Is it just me or does that rudder look transparent near the waterline??? Photoshop?

Its just you

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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151829774689636

 

for some video, and one of the names involved. Spoke to the other driving force today, and they hope to have the conversion kits available through PSA soon. Upwind performance is obviously not as good as downwind.

 

They hope to convert enough Laser sailors to warrant a separate division, We will see, at least it might lead to more people going mothing once they get a taste for foiling.

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Exactly, I find 'bashing' this idea of foiling lasers to be a bit daft. After all you go buy a cheap laser, fit the kit and go have fun...realise you can foil and then want something more refined...like a proper foiling moth.

 

How much do you reckon the kits will be? I am interested.

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does this mean laser punters will have to upgrade their BMX helmets ?

 

the water is harder from up there on a pensioners noggin?

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We will see, at least it might lead to more people going mothing once they get a taste for foiling.

 

Yes it might. The learning curve associated with Moths and the fitness level required are both quite intimidating. A baby-steps route would be a big help.

 

But, there have been at least two other serious attempts to establish an easier foiling class (the RS600FF and the Linton Jenkins Concept). Neither really "took off and I'm having difficulty believing the Laser hull and rig is a more promising place to start.

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..............They hope to convert enough Laser sailors to warrant a separate division,,,,,,,

 

....wouldn't that division be slower upwind than stock lasers with all those foils in the water? :huh:

,,,and downwind as well,,except if there's decent breeze?

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As an ex-Laser sailor, it will be interesting to see if the foil package works upwind. Combining 21st century foils with basically a 1970's rig might be a wall that limits the potential but maybe this could be the catalyst to modernize the rig. Good luck and looking forward to videos.

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As an ex-Laser sailor, it will be interesting to see if the foil package works upwind. Combining 21st century foils with basically a 1970's rig might be a wall that limits the potential but maybe this could be the catalyst to modernize the rig. Good luck and looking forward to videos.

 

Bob, have you seen the Hansen rig for Lasers?

 

Hansen photo-

post-30-0-67613700-1376002350_thumb.jpg

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Don't think that is possible.

 

....wouldn't that division be slower upwind than stock lasers with all those foils in the water? :huh:

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Don't think that is possible.

 

....wouldn't that division be slower upwind than stock lasers with all those foils in the water? :huh:

 

Rawhide .... I'm sure I remember you saying how fast the young guys were while they were giving you a sailing lesson the last time you raced a Laser on Pittwater.

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Bob, have you seen the Hansen rig for Lasers?

So, is that a Class legal Laser, Doug?

 

I know the answer. I just want to see you answer the question.

 

... and therein lies the real trick to it all. The whole episode is a slobbery invitation to hop-on to the design spiral for a hull that will be immediately out of its structural element. Stock Lasers already experience mast pocket cracking. Shove a Hansen rig in there and the loads associated with foiling and wham... consult your nearest fiberglass repair shop for some spendy repairs to an already used-up boat.

 

What an absolutely terrific idea as a way to spend significant money on a past-its-prime boat. Please tell me that the sailing world isn't as gullible as Doug Lord... You know, that guy who bit so hard on a French website's April Fool's gag about foilers that his teeth pierced his eyeballs from compression loads.

 

I say, buy yourself a used Moth and save a ton of grief, if foiling is your oracle.

 

.

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you are exactly right imho.

I think it is great to accomplish and demonstrate a foiling laser, but in practice I have to believe it will trash the hull. I don't believe laser owners want to destroy their boats.

Evidence of reliability of course would be great. Facts are better than conjecture.

 


The whole episode is a slobbery invitation to hop-on to the design spiral for a hull that will be immediately out of its structural element. Stock Lasers already experience mast pocket cracking. Shove a Hansen rig in there and the loads associated with foiling and wham... consult your nearest fiberglass repair shop for some spendy repairs to an already used-up boat.

What an absolutely terrific idea as a way to spend significant money on a past-its-prime boat.

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The Emperor's New Clothes with Douglas Lord as the chief runway model.

 

I wonder how the guys putting this Laser foil package together feel about Lord as their drooling, tone deaf, spokesperson?

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I think the best thing about this foil package will be the ability to mount them on another platform more suitable to foiling!

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..............They hope to convert enough Laser sailors to warrant a separate division,,,,,,,

 

....wouldn't that division be slower upwind than stock lasers with all those foils in the water? :huh:

,,,and downwind as well,,except if there's decent breeze?

 

 

Slap a set on a Hoot….

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..............They hope to convert enough Laser sailors to warrant a separate division,,,,,,,

 

....wouldn't that division be slower upwind than stock lasers with all those foils in the water? :huh:

,,,and downwind as well,,except if there's decent breeze?

 

 

Slap a set on a Hoot….

 

 

.....I'm afraid of heights! :(

 

 

...interestingly,,half the racers at the 3 HOOT events have been moth sailors...

.....they seem to find that the HOOT complements their moth sailing/racing at much as the other way 'round.

.......probably because on a regional level,it's actually a bit difficult to get 5 moths on the start line at 0seconds :lol::lol:

 

 

.....now,back to your regularly scheduled thread!

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I think the best thing about this foil package will be the ability to mount them on another platform more suitable to foiling!

How would you do that? Make another insert for the trunk of a different boat?

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I think the best thing about this foil package will be the ability to mount them on another platform more suitable to foiling!

How would you do that? Make another insert for the trunk of a different boat?

Either make a new insert, or design the case for the foiling board or design it for a laser board

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From F18 5150 in the other thread-this may not be good for a prospective "Peoples Foiler" :

 

Posted Today, 07:34 PM

Just got this from PSA. More info to follow as I get it.
Goinging on line when our website comes back online, bad time for a melt down.
They are $5800 inc GST Rec Retail in oz.

You can order as of next week and all technical data will go online.

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Except of course for the point loading. My prediction is that the laser will suffer an early death, cantilevered off of its centerboard trunk.

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"They are $5800 inc GST Rec Retail in OZ"

 

Well, the whole People's Foiler idea just died an ignominious, spiraling death, Doug.

 

Isn't finally time to put that idiotic notion to bed once and for all? You've been spewing is concept for a decade, now and no matter how many times your little, whimsical, one note heart wants to say, yes, yes, yes... the marketplace and reality says, NO, NO, NO!!!!

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If I read this article correctly ...

 

"As Peter Stephinson explains ‘ The secret to the success, now protected internationally is the fully articulated foil, which provides less drag and at the same time is both detachable and retractable. All the control mechanism is encapsulated within the centreboard. A lot of tooling and a significant investment has been needed to bring this foiling kit to market.’:

 

This implies that this setup has been patented. There is nothing new here. This setup was used on previously well ahead of any patent application. If innovations like this are allowed to be patented, this is VERY dangerous for the sport.

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Re Bruce's comments:

The articulated foil has been used by Ian Ward for maybe 14 years, initially on wing mounted foils and on then his centreline foil moth for maybe the last 5 years. Karl in California has one on his moth too and he might comment himself on originality or help from Ian. I do not know of any other moths using the system. I suspect Ian has a valid patent right to the idea.

 

The centreboard mounted wand was used by John Ilett and the other WA moths at the 2005 Black Rock WC. I have never seen Ian use a foil mouonted wand on a moth. So maybe John has a patent right to that component.

 

The fact the new kit is attachable to a standard Laser may be an other issue again.

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"They are $5800 inc GST Rec Retail in OZ"

 

I really hope you are kidding.... you can get an entire set of cutting-edge Moth foils in full carbon for less than that. (or damn close. Complete main is ~$3,000 or so?)

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"They are $5800 inc GST Rec Retail in OZ"

 

I really hope you are kidding.... you can get an entire set of cutting-edge Moth foils in full carbon for less than that. (or damn close. Complete main is ~$3,000 or so?)

No, CB, Rudder, and fore and aft foils for a Mach2 will cost about $5500, add wand and connections and laser set is cheaper, but it should be in aluminium I expect.

 

That said a complete old Prowler or Bladerider might not cost that much if you want a cheap foiler. Probably go to windward heaps better than the laser too.

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If I read this article correctly ...

 

"As Peter Stephinson explains ‘ The secret to the success, now protected internationally is the fully articulated foil, which provides less drag and at the same time is both detachable and retractable. All the control mechanism is encapsulated within the centreboard. A lot of tooling and a significant investment has been needed to bring this foiling kit to market.’:

 

This implies that this setup has been patented. There is nothing new here. This setup was used on previously well ahead of any patent application. If innovations like this are allowed to be patented, this is VERY dangerous for the sport.

patent law just got really messy with the recent changes.

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It's great to see Ian Wards involvement-a foiling pioneer if their ever was one! Way to go Ian.....

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If that is correct price, I am out!!!, 1500 seems bout what alu blades should be, even PL rs600 foils were around that back when i was thinkin of adapting to my MX-ray. Keep me informed, am still interested! And once again, plz go away DL!

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Except of course for the point loading. My prediction is that the laser will suffer an early death, cantilevered off of its centerboard trunk.

...not to mention the 4 sheet-metal screws into glass/plywood that hold the gudgeons on!

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More info:

 

" To make foiling simple, practical and fun in a Laser, we needed to address the many limitations of today’s foiling dinghies. We have not just copied what has been used before, but have developed a completely new foiling system with flapless foils and integral wand which utilizes many unique design features. These features enable easy launching in shallow water, safe efficient and fast foiling, along with good displacement sailing performance in light winds."

It just may become the very first.......

 

http://www.lasersailing.com.au/index.cfm?eid=1123&ntid=1361

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I think the best thing about this foil package will be the ability to mount them on another platform more suitable to foiling!

How would you do that? Make another insert for the trunk of a different boat?

 

 

or laminate a Laser trunk in your skiff, R-class, Cherub, i14 or IC

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When I inquired to Linton, a couple of years back i seem to remember a figure of like 1800 pounds? I was just hoping they would be cheap enough to justify, don't need them, just like to try.

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sailing can be a cheap sport if you play pre-loved equipment, ebay, craigslist or DIY

 

otherwise you cough up real money

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I imagine that, once a Laser owner foils his boat (with the assumption it is noticeably faster foiling, eventually on most points of sail), from that time - regular nonfoiling mode will be painfully slow.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

 

Now a new boat must be designed for the new set of foils...

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If I read this article correctly ...

 

"As Peter Stephinson explains ‘ The secret to the success, now protected internationally is the fully articulated foil, which provides less drag and at the same time is both detachable and retractable. All the control mechanism is encapsulated within the centreboard. A lot of tooling and a significant investment has been needed to bring this foiling kit to market.’:

 

This implies that this setup has been patented. There is nothing new here. This setup was used on previously well ahead of any patent application. If innovations like this are allowed to be patented, this is VERY dangerous for the sport.

 

What might be patentable is the connection between the wand and the foil, perhaps relating to dampening and the spring return, perhaps also the foil/strut hinge. The mechanism seems to be internal to the strut.

 

Likely there are tinkerers who can't wait to get some basic data and make their own.

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If I read this article correctly ...

 

"As Peter Stephinson explains ‘ The secret to the success, now protected internationally is the fully articulated foil, which provides less drag and at the same time is both detachable and retractable. All the control mechanism is encapsulated within the centreboard. A lot of tooling and a significant investment has been needed to bring this foiling kit to market.’:

 

This implies that this setup has been patented. There is nothing new here. This setup was used on previously well ahead of any patent application. If innovations like this are allowed to be patented, this is VERY dangerous for the sport.

 

What might be patentable is the connection between the wand and the foil, perhaps relating to dampening and the spring return, perhaps also the foil/strut hinge. The mechanism seems to be internal to the strut.

 

Likely there are tinkerers who can't wait to get some basic data and make their own.

 

The mechanism that I think is being used has been tried and developed by several moth sailors both in the US and Aus. including Ian Ward who had a hand in this kit. As Ian is involved I am assuming that this work is a derivative of that work. From the information that is publicly available this kit contains nothing that is novel or not obvious as required by patent law.

 

If you had given anyone who has designed, built and sailed with their own foils the requirements of "Build a hydrofoil kit that must bolt onto a laser hull with no modifications to the hull, and a control system with a trailing edge wand that is self contained within the main hydrofoil." They would have designed pretty much the same thing, although maybe with a flapped foil, but that is hard to make with extruded alloy.

 

In case you hadn't guessed I am very anti-patent, especially when it comes to sailing and software as they kill open collaboration and innovation. Product sales should be based on customer satisfaction and building a better mousetrap that your competitors, not some artificial licensing protection because you filed the paperwork first.

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I hope they get the protection they need -worldwide- if,indeed,it is patentable. I'm not sure it's worth the money it costs to protect a new system,though. Thieves abound and patent defense is a money destroyer.

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That makes two times now I have had a go at Lasers and as much as I love OD, it just reminds me why I sail A Class. I have to think though that Laser sailors are not the right market for foils. People sail lasers for OD and the simplicity, not to go fast, foiling just doesn’t match the demographic. If they were the right price, then there would be a market for them as a novelty, but as been pointed out above, at over $6k you can get a fairly decent moth for a bit of fun.

 

BTW don't think there is any chance of getting a patent here. They have achieved significant recognition, don't think fortune will follow though.

 

 

 

 

Don't think that is possible.

 

....wouldn't that division be slower upwind than stock lasers with all those foils in the water? :huh:

 

Rawhide .... I'm sure I remember you saying how fast the young guys were while they were giving you a sailing lesson the last time you raced a Laser on Pittwater.

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If I read this article correctly ...

 

"As Peter Stephinson explains ‘ The secret to the success, now protected internationally is the fully articulated foil, which provides less drag and at the same time is both detachable and retractable. All the control mechanism is encapsulated within the centreboard. A lot of tooling and a significant investment has been needed to bring this foiling kit to market.’:[/size]

 

This implies that this setup has been patented. There is nothing new here. This setup was used on previously well ahead of any patent application. If innovations like this are allowed to be patented, this is VERY dangerous for the sport.

What might be patentable is the connection between the wand and the foil, perhaps relating to dampening and the spring return, perhaps also the foil/strut hinge. The mechanism seems to be internal to the strut.

 

Likely there are tinkerers who can't wait to get some basic data and make their own.

 

 

The mechanism that I think is being used has been tried and developed by several moth sailors both in the US and Aus. including Ian Ward who had a hand in this kit. As Ian is involved I am assuming that this work is a derivative of that work. From the information that is publicly available this kit contains nothing that is novel or not obvious as required by patent law.

 

 

Though patent offices seem to have a policy of issuing patents if the paperwork is correct and leaving the rest to courts.

In case you hadn't guessed I am very anti-patent, especially when it comes to sailing and software as they kill open collaboration and innovation. Product sales should be based on customer satisfaction and building a better mousetrap that your competitors, not some artificial licensing protection because you filed the paperwork first.

Patents are intended to encourage the sharing of knowledge, though of course that isn't necessarily how it works in practice.

 

You're also assuming that "protected internationally" means "patented". Given the suggestion that it might create a new Laser sub–class, the design might be protected in other ways such as how the Laser design was protected all these years (licenced builders, ISAF plaque, etc.). A patent would add strength to that over and above "design rights". ;-)

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That makes two times now I have had a go at Lasers and as much as I love OD, it just reminds me why I sail A Class. I have to think though that Laser sailors are not the right market for foils. People sail lasers for OD and the simplicity, not to go fast, foiling just doesn’t match the demographic. If they were the right price, then there would be a market for them as a novelty, but as been pointed out above, at over $6k you can get a fairly decent moth for a bit of fun.

 

BTW don't think there is any chance of getting a patent here. They have achieved significant recognition, don't think fortune will follow though.

 

 

 

 

Don't think that is possible.

 

....wouldn't that division be slower upwind than stock lasers with all those foils in the water? :huh:

 

Rawhide .... I'm sure I remember you saying how fast the young guys were while they were giving you a sailing lesson the last time you raced a Laser on Pittwater.

 

Rawhide .... with a few exceptions like yourself and Phil S, so many people who post on these threads don't embrace the diversity of sailing options available to them, but rather seem to want to pidgeon hole everyone as either a Laser sailor, skiiff sailor, multihull sailor or foiler.

 

In reality I believe most Laser sailors are totally blown away by the innovation, technology and outright speeds being achieved in some of the development classes like the Moths, A Class cats and now the foiling C Class cats. That's exactly why so many of the world's best Laser sailors like Ainslie and Slingsby regularly move in and out of the development classes ..... very successfully too.

 

However, for the average Laser sailor it's all about getting the "most bang for you buck" and if big fleets and serious competition (at a reasonable price) are what you're looking for then why would you look any further. I'm sure the Tasar sailors, Sunfish sailors in the USA and even the Finn sailors of the world feel the same way.

 

Don't think we don't appreciate the technology, the innovation and the speed of the development classes ..... we do.

 

It's just that when we dust off the Laser for the next big regatta we need to feel confident that we are going to get the most "bang for our buck", that our boat has not been made irrelevant by the latest leap in innovation and technolgy, and our results will be determined by how well we sail.

 

Remember the Moth Worlds at Belmont (Australia) a few years back.? The Gold Fleet could have been renamed the Mach 2 fleet and every other design renamed the Silver Fleet. Sooner or later an even faster design will come along and make every other boat in the class redundant, this is the nature of a development class, I'll be following their developments with interest, but I simply do not have the time or the budget to engage.

 

Rawhide ..... that said, can I have a sail of your A Class cat one day?

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As an ex-Laser sailor, it will be interesting to see if the foil package works upwind. Combining 21st century foils with basically a 1970's rig might be a wall that limits the potential but maybe this could be the catalyst to modernize the rig. Good luck and looking forward to videos.

 

Bob, have you seen the Hansen rig for Lasers?

 

Hansen photo-

 

I watched a decent (ie avg) sailor try and beach launch this in 10-12 knots... kindof a circus. and while upwind he was slightly faster than a std laser, it wasn't much faster - simply because he didn't have the abs to hike the fucker upwind.

 

and that's the big gotcha on any non-winged foiler: your RM just ain't there unless you are 2+meters and weigh 85kg (ie a Finn sailor)

 

 

If I read this article correctly ...

 

"As Peter Stephinson explains ‘ The secret to the success, now protected internationally is the fully articulated foil, which provides less drag and at the same time is both detachable and retractable. All the control mechanism is encapsulated within the centreboard. A lot of tooling and a significant investment has been needed to bring this foiling kit to market.’:

 

This implies that this setup has been patented. There is nothing new here. This setup was used on previously well ahead of any patent application. If innovations like this are allowed to be patented, this is VERY dangerous for the sport.

 

What might be patentable is the connection between the wand and the foil, perhaps relating to dampening and the spring return, perhaps also the foil/strut hinge. The mechanism seems to be internal to the strut.

 

Likely there are tinkerers who can't wait to get some basic data and make their own.

Oh the whole thing is patentable. And there are trivial patent workarounds - kinda like Dougies stupid multihull windsurfer and funky UV joint that was otherwise catastrophic

 

There is nothing new in fully articulated foils as they have been on Moths and I-14s for years, just with varying amounts of success.

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I watched a decent (ie avg) sailor try and beach launch this in 10-12 knots... kindof a circus.

 

Whatever you do, don't buy a Hansen rig. Your boat will tip over at the dock!

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I watched a decent (ie avg) sailor try and beach launch this in 10-12 knots... kindof a circus.

 

Whatever you do, don't buy a Hansen rig. Your boat will tip over at the dock!

LOL!!!!

 

The point is that for the vast majority of sailors, the Hansen rig provides them very little advantage. I've been on holiday this week on the coast of Britanny and people are sailing all over the place. What they are sailing are Hobie "twixxies" (ie the 14' rotomolded beach cat) and having an absolute blast

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Posted this morning by Doug Lord over on Boatdesign.net:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/laser-foiler-47854-3.html

 

 

Doug Lord
Flight Ready

 

Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1119 Posts: 8,106
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutOnce viewpost.gif
Good question. I think the right answer is to look for a used Bladerider (fibreglass model) which can be had for around the cost of just the foil for the Laser. You get a better foiling platform, better chance of actually foiling and you keep your Laser as well. Problem solved.

--
CutOnce
=================
I would be real leery of that. Even a good Moth is fragile and the Bladerider went out of business for poor quality builds. Not only that, to launch you have to wade out to chest deep water before skampering aboard. And the Moth is very, very unstable off the foils-one of the big advantages of the foiling Laser is stability off(and on) the foils.
I don't think you get a better chance of foiling at all, but you get a faster boat once you master the Moth. If you bought a new Laser and the foil package you'd have an excellent product at about half the cost of a new Moth.

 

 

Hilarious.

 

This from the goob who clawed, tooth and nail, on behalf of all things Bladerider back in the day. Now Dougie is sure that Bladerider's fortunes are all about poor build quality when he used to be beside himself like a wiggly two year old about how they were going to change the world of sailing as we know it. Come to think of it.... that's pretty much what Dougie says about anything that has a foil sticking out of the hull in some fashion. So, if one were to simply extrapolate the argument, as Doug see's it, all of these nifty foiling things are gonna die, sooner or later, simply due to poor build quality.

 

So, here we have Douglas pimping like the carnival act that he is, lofting a product to the heavens in the same, Bladerider fashion, as if he's actually seen and sailed the article in question. That right there is pretty much a Doug Lord, patented death knell for the Laser foil package under discussion.

 

All hail the King of Foils. How quickly the mercurial worm turns.

 

.

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Sometimes the best thing to do is to step back from the computer...and stay in the real world...where DL doesn't even exist...(I never heard of him until he appeared on SA)...

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True dat! But then how would I find out about laser foilers!, oh yea, facebook!

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Posted this morning by Doug Lord over on Boatdesign.net:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/laser-foiler-47854-3.html

 

 

Doug Lord
Flight Ready

 

Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1119 Posts: 8,106
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutOnce viewpost.gif
Good question. I think the right answer is to look for a used Bladerider (fibreglass model) which can be had for around the cost of just the foil for the Laser. You get a better foiling platform, better chance of actually foiling and you keep your Laser as well. Problem solved.

 

--

CutOnce

=================

I would be real leery of that. Even a good Moth is fragile and the Bladerider went out of business for poor quality builds. Not only that, to launch you have to wade out to chest deep water before skampering aboard. And the Moth is very, very unstable off the foils-one of the big advantages of the foiling Laser is stability off(and on) the foils.

I don't think you get a better chance of foiling at all, but you get a faster boat once you master the Moth. If you bought a new Laser and the foil package you'd have an excellent product at about half the cost of a new Moth.

 

 

Hilarious.

 

This from the goob who clawed, tooth and nail, on behalf of all things Bladerider back in the day. Now Dougie is sure that Bladerider's fortunes are all about poor build quality when he used to be beside himself like a wiggly two year old about how they were going to change the world of sailing as we know it. Come to think of it.... that's pretty much what Dougie says about anything that has a foil sticking out of the hull in some fashion. So, if one were to simply extrapolate the argument, as Doug see's it, all of these nifty foiling things are gonna die, sooner or later, simply due to poor build quality.

 

So, here we have Douglas pimping like the carnival act that he is, lofting a product to the heavens in the same, Bladerider fashion, as if he's actually seen and sailed the article in question. That right there is pretty much a Doug Lord, patented death knell for the Laser foil package under discussion.

 

All hail the King of Foils. How quickly the mercurial worm turns.

 

.

Just becasue Doug says something does not make it wrong. BR changed builders, from McConaghys to a Taiwan company topkey (who build all manner of things eg tennis rackets & bikes). The boats (including all fiberglass ones) were rubbish. You are more annoying than he is with your constant doug references

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Just becasue Doug says something does not make it wrong. BR changed builders, from McConaghys to a Taiwan company topkey (who build all manner of things eg tennis rackets & bikes). The boats (including all fiberglass ones) were rubbish. You are more annoying than he is with your constant doug references

While it doesn't belong on this thread, this is incorrect. One of the reasons why BR changed builders was problems of build quality. There were certain batches of McConaghy boats that were really good but even the good ones had problems (non stainless bolts which rusted away glued into the transom for the gantry to hang off). The change of builder didn't improve anything and may have made matters worse. And IMO, the fibreglass boats were never engineered properly. However, BR's can offer really good value foiling, if you know a bit about the boat you are going to buy, because as said, some were strong and reliable.

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So IOW Doug was once again - spouting things he doesn't understand because he has no first hand experience

 

BTW Simon - when you said Doug had built foiling RC models - did you mean to include that he designed them? or that he just built them? 'cuz the RC model he has as a video foiling is one that was designed by Sam Bradfield and Doug just built it.

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Just becasue Doug says something does not make it wrong. BR changed builders, from McConaghys to a Taiwan company topkey (who build all manner of things eg tennis rackets & bikes). The boats (including all fiberglass ones) were rubbish. You are more annoying than he is with your constant doug references

While it doesn't belong on this thread, this is incorrect. One of the reasons why BR changed builders was problems of build quality. There were certain batches of McConaghy boats that were really good but even the good ones had problems (non stainless bolts which rusted away glued into the transom for the gantry to hang off). The change of builder didn't improve anything and may have made matters worse. And IMO, the fibreglass boats were never engineered properly. However, BR's can offer really good value foiling, if you know a bit about the boat you are going to buy, because as said, some were strong and reliable.

What did i say that was incorrect? i said when they changed builders the boats were rubbish. This includes all fiberglass ones. the mcConaghys ones i did not comment on. So Dougs point, do not buy a fiberglass BR, is a valid one

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So IOW Doug was once again - spouting things he doesn't understand because he has no first hand experience

 

While he may have no first hand familiarity with or experience sailing a Moth, what he said is essentially correct:

 

I would be real leery of that. Even a good Moth is fragile and the Bladerider went out of business for poor quality builds

 

That's pretty much on the money, though a good number of the McConaghy boats were well built and are still sailing.

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So IOW Doug was once again - spouting things he doesn't understand because he has no first hand experience

 

BTW Simon - when you said Doug had built foiling RC models - did you mean to include that he designed them? or that he just built them? 'cuz the RC model he has as a video foiling is one that was designed by Sam Bradfield and Doug just built it.

 

Carlie(beebie), that is more of your uninformed, made up bullshit. The differences in my design as compared to Bradfields are in the rig, hulls and most particularly in the foils(partial span).Anyone who knows Bradfields designs well would know the differences in a heartbeat. However, Bradfield taught me much of what I know about foilers when I worked with him the summer before the F3. His contribution to my "foiler education" was second to none. I suggest you get an copy of this magazine from the AMYA and read it and stop your asinine blather:

Here is an old microSAIL! video-probably the Carlie refers to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRJDrWSZE6o&feature=youtu.be

post-30-0-84275700-1377176275_thumb.jpg

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Shoo Dougie the troll.

....hmm,,if DL started the thread,,,and you say 'shoo,troll' in it,,,

 

,,,,,it's -much- like going over to another kids sandbox and sayin .....'get out of my sandbox!',,,,no??

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