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Why rule out 19 and 20? Depending on reliability I think they are in with a shout of a podium along with riou. I still think that the winner is most likely to be a Dali style boat. Don't have a clue which one as there are too many variables, but based on speed and experience I agree Armel is the favourite.

 

I also like AT's chances, provided he can button-off and not drive HB to self-destruction.

 

In over ten years, he has finished I would guess fewer than ten races.

I love the guy, I want him to get it as much as anyone else- but I don't see him buttoning off, especially as this is seen as his best chance yet.

 

 

Well, he does have a reputation as a boat breaker. So I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

I think one of the advantages of the foiler might be the ability to push less hard at critical times.

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How much self learning capability do the pilots have? Will they get quicker/better as the race progresses?

They recognize the pattern and refine the reaction speed, reaction force and amount of over reaction. In other words, they get better at doing what they already know how to do. They don't learn an entirely new skill

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Hydro gen is great for cruisers, not so great for racers, lot's of drag...

 

Any links to streaming vid of the start?

Eh? Pretty common on the 60's and class 40's.

Yup. It's hard to get enough amps out of solar, even on a sunny day. So it becomes a trade off between the weight of diesel and the drag of the hydro. Which is also a function of drag. On a Class 40 with average trams oceanic speeds around 10 knots, a fixed prop hydro is worth it from about 7 knots of boat speed to 12 knots.

 

For 60s, averaging over 13 knots, the hydro needs a feathering prop to manage the drag.

 

I frankly don't know how the foilers deploy a hydro.

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I think most 60 foilers have their hydros mounted on the transom, which with current tech won't be flying and can probably be adapted for higher speeds

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Was super impressed with Conrad Coleman's video and his attitude, adds another dimension to the race from a character perspective in a French world.. Pieter Hereema also spoke well but his is a last minute buy the boat campaign, he has been getting help to prepare but when the going gets rough there's only a handful in this group that have the experience. It's a pity François Gabart isn't racing. Alex's boat seems fast, but he suffers breakages. With the weather and it's unpredictability we could well end up with only half of the boats making it.

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Was super impressed with Conrad Coleman's video and his attitude, adds another dimension to the race from a character perspective in a French world.. Pieter Hereema also spoke well but his is a last minute buy the boat campaign, he has been getting help to prepare but when the going gets rough there's only a handful in this group that have the experience. It's a pity François Gabart isn't racing. Alex's boat seems fast, but he suffers breakages. With the weather and it's unpredictability we could well end up with only half of the boats making it.

Or less... Boats technically excellent, but too fragile for the long run, me thinks

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Hydro gen is great for cruisers, not so great for racers, lot's of drag...

 

Any links to streaming vid of the start?

Eh? Pretty common on the 60's and class 40's.

Pretty commonly breaking & causing a major PITA for the skippers too.

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One year, I think it was Mich Des who had to start his motor by wrapping a line around the crankshaft pulley, then attaching the line to the boom and gybing. Power generation in general is a problem in an 80-100 day race in a harsh environment.

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That was a starter problem, not a electrical problem.

He needed to start the motor to turn the alternator to generate electricity. No other reason to start the motor.

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Something about a set of spreaders that look like a Christmas tree just gets me all wet.

Let alone a proverbial forest of them :wub:

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What fool did Boss end up going with after their breakage a month or so ago?

Typo? Or? LOL.

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What fool did Boss end up going with after their breakage a month or so ago?

Typo? Or? LOL.

I'm going for heavy drinking.

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yeah, hope it doesn't end up on the shores of Patagonia

First he has to cross the southern ocean.... I'm mean

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yeah, hope it doesn't end up on the shores of Patagonia

First he has to cross the southern ocean.... I'm mean

 

 

Or even get out of the Bay!

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Banque Populaire 8 just sold to Louis Burton (Bureau Vallee) for a VG2020 campaign starting next year. Lucky Louis!

 

Now Armel, don't break it.

 

:)

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Banque Populaire 8 just sold to Louis Burton (Bureau Vallee) for a VG2020 campaign starting next year. Lucky Louis!

 

Now Armel, don't break it.

 

:)

When you say "sold" means compromise to sell no? Its a bit risky buying a boat before a around the world race

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A few weeks ago, Fabrice Amedeo was so kind to give me a tour inside his boat. Now I'm wondering how the new designs look in comparison. Have any of the teams released any photos? How much space is left there with the foils?

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Foil Works JPD

 

14519895_1206258502769611_34214590758551

"Tapered tips". Beat you to it Doug!

 

 

Or, should that be "waxed tips"?

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Banque Populaire 8 just sold to Louis Burton (Bureau Vallee) for a VG2020 campaign starting next year. Lucky Louis!

 

Now Armel, don't break it.

 

:)

That's awesome.

I wonder how common this sort of a deal is.

It's very common with dinghies before a major championship where boats are chartered, but I can't imagine people being so keen before a big offshore race.

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Heuy2,

 

thanks for Josse pic, seems a drone is now basic to have.

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that's a crazy amount of taper on those board ends, seems to prioritize drag reduction? thanks for the pictures.

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that's a crazy amount of taper on those board ends, seems to prioritize drag reduction? thanks for the pictures.

+1 and it assumes the boats will be going pretty fast to get any lift out of the ends, no?

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Don't you mean WaxeD TipS or TapereD TipS

 

PG Tips for the Brit on Hugo Boss!

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that's a crazy amount of taper on those board ends, seems to prioritize drag reduction? thanks for the pictures.

+1 and it assumes the boats will be going pretty fast to get any lift out of the ends, no?

 

 

let's ask Doug, think he calls 'em tips 'n shit. hey Doug, what's the word?

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A few foils seen at Les Sables yesterday. I still don't think any will survive a round the world trip but it will sure be interesting to see what happens.

post-35226-0-56677400-1476863458_thumb.jpg

post-35226-0-46207100-1476863474_thumb.jpg

post-35226-0-29777400-1476863503_thumb.jpg

post-35226-0-57257300-1476863518_thumb.jpg

post-35226-0-01487900-1476863553_thumb.jpg

post-35226-0-81479400-1476863641_thumb.jpg

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that's a crazy amount of taper on those board ends, seems to prioritize drag reduction? thanks for the pictures.

+1 and it assumes the boats will be going pretty fast to get any lift out of the ends, no?

 

 

let's ask Doug, think he calls 'em tips 'n shit. hey Doug, what's the word?

 

I wonder does it annoy Doug that foiling has in some way become mainstream and people can see even more clearly that everything he'd been sprouting over the years was total bullshit?

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that's a crazy amount of taper on those board ends, seems to prioritize drag reduction? thanks for the pictures.

+1 and it assumes the boats will be going pretty fast to get any lift out of the ends, no?

let's ask Doug, think he calls 'em tips 'n shit. hey Doug, what's the word?

I wonder does it annoy Doug that foiling has in some way become mainstream and people can see even more clearly that everything he'd been sprouting over the years was total bullshit?
Foilin Doug is a total fuckin turnip ....put him on ignore...then enjoy the real stuff that crops up here.

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i forget - was it t his race.., or the VOR.., or both.., that made text files of the position reports available so that those at home could pretend to navigate the race?

 

alternatively.., maybe someone who knows how to do it can write a script that gets the positions from the official website and puts them into an easy-to-import text format for us to download from somewhere

 

also, i am sure someone with a lot of time on their hands has made a polar table from the the graphic on the game website - if anyone knows of a link to the file.., can you post it?

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that's a crazy amount of taper on those board ends, seems to prioritize drag reduction? thanks for the pictures.

+1 and it assumes the boats will be going pretty fast to get any lift out of the ends, no?

let's ask Doug, think he calls 'em tips 'n shit. hey Doug, what's the word?

I wonder does it annoy Doug that foiling has in some way become mainstream and people can see even more clearly that everything he'd been sprouting over the years was total bullshit?
Foilin Doug is a total fuckin turnip ....put him on ignore...then enjoy the real stuff that crops up here.

 

I am well aware he's a turnip.

 

 

 

 

 

Albeit an entertaining one.

I remember the heady days when only Moths were foiling around, when he could spout his bullshit and no one was really bothered.

 

Now however, it becomes obvious all so quickly what he's spouting.

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i forget - was it t his race.., or the VOR.., or both.., that made text files of the position reports available so that those at home could pretend to navigate the race?

 

alternatively.., maybe someone who knows how to do it can write a script that gets the positions from the official website and puts them into an easy-to-import text format for us to download from somewhere

 

also, i am sure someone with a lot of time on their hands has made a polar table from the the graphic on the game website - if anyone knows of a link to the file.., can you post it?

Would ya like a cup of tea with that? Where's Volodia anyway? Isn't he good at doing this kind of thing?

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i forget - was it t his race.., or the VOR.., or both.., that made text files of the position reports available so that those at home could pretend to navigate the race?

 

alternatively.., maybe someone who knows how to do it can write a script that gets the positions from the official website and puts them into an easy-to-import text format for us to download from somewhere

 

also, i am sure someone with a lot of time on their hands has made a polar table from the the graphic on the game website - if anyone knows of a link to the file.., can you post it?

Would ya like a cup of tea with that? Where's Volodia anyway? Isn't he good at doing this kind of thing?

 

 

well, the way it should be done.., is that the organizing authority should let anyone sign up for email delivery of the same position reports they email to the boats...

 

 

21.3.2 Polling of rankings and positions during the race Throughout the duration of the race, competitors must make sure that the Iridium beacons supplied by the organiser are in working order. Six sets of rankings will be issued at the following times : 04H00 UT, 08H00 UT, 11H00 UT, 15H00 UT, 18h00 UT and 21h00 UT. The rankings will be displayed on the race website and sent to the press. They will be sent to competitors at the organiser’s cost, in the format requested ( XLS, POSREPORT,…)

 

i don't see why they couldn't let race-followers subscribe to everything...

 

 

22.1.4.1 “Safety” information issued daily for competitors by the company Great Circle. 1) A safety weather report including : - The general situation and its evolution. - 24-hour forecasts by zone (forecasts from D+12h to D+36h), according to a description of navigation zones provided to each competitor before the start. - The 24h and 48h trend (forecasts from D+36h to D+60h), incorporating, where necessary, dangerous phenomena in each zone (winds > 40 kts and waves > 6 metres). 2) An analysis of 6h and 18h UTC (sat image/front). 3) Charts in Preiso 24h/48h/72h format. Times and availablity : Reports will be issued in French and in English. They will be sent by e-mail to competitors by Race Management and also deposited on an FTP account at 10h UTC. Both analyses will be published at 8h UTC and 20h UTC. The Preiso charts will be deposited on an FTP account at 8h UTC. In the event of a boat’s satellite telephone not working, (with the exception of the Page 16 Iridium in the container), the weather report will be sent to the Standard-C if the competitor asks Race Management to do so. In order to reduce the size of this file, the information will be adapted to the geographical situation of the competitor concerned, and only the report covering his geographical zone will be sent

 

or just put it all on a server for download if they don't want to email it - i wouldn't use the same server as the competitors use though..., just copy it to the public website

 

they could even charge for it.

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i forget - was it t his race.., or the VOR.., or both.., that made text files of the position reports available so that those at home could pretend to navigate the race?

 

alternatively.., maybe someone who knows how to do it can write a script that gets the positions from the official website and puts them into an easy-to-import text format for us to download from somewhere

 

also, i am sure someone with a lot of time on their hands has made a polar table from the the graphic on the game website - if anyone knows of a link to the file.., can you post it?

 

 

Virtual Regatta does a huge virtual version of the Vendee (and they also ran the VOR game, and a bunch of other virtual races). They're expecting to get a million Vendee entries this time around. They introduced a brand new user interface for it, so I'm not sure yet what's going to differ between the version a bunch of us used for VOR and this one. I think (but I'm not sure) that one change is to have the real boats shown in the game interface, or at least the current leader. It also has the polars, etc. If several of us do it, we should probably start a separate thread about it, like we did for VORG and the Clipper Race.

 

 

I'm not aware of anything, though, that's for running hypothetical routings for the real boats from their present positions at any given time.

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Please don´t mention him, this is one of the only threads he hasn't bombed with all his stuff

 

how bad could it be, these boats don't fly, they just get some extra righting moment and a small reduction in wetted surface. I wouldn't mind in the least if the man chimed in here. jus sayin

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This is going to be the most exciting race ever. Perhaps I said that four years ago but it's true again now.

 

Btw, I'll be arriving in Les Sables on Nov 1st. Will be there through the 7th, checking in with the three boats we have in the race with our batteries:

Rich Wilson on GA4 (Genasun)

Alex Thomson on Hugo Boss (OPE-Li3)

Jean Le Cam on Finistere Mer Vent (OPE-Li3)

 

We also supplied high-output alternators to Alex & Jean.

 

Will try to crank out some reports for you all here on SA, or at least will coordinate with Clean to get some inside news sent out.

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Doesn't really matter how fast you are going, elliptical lift distribution is lower drag and tapering the tips is a good way to achieve that. May be some other factors at play regarding amount of immersed foil at different angles, not so sure.

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i forget - was it t his race.., or the VOR.., or both.., that made text files of the position reports available so that those at home could pretend to navigate the race?

 

alternatively.., maybe someone who knows how to do it can write a script that gets the positions from the official website and puts them into an easy-to-import text format for us to download from somewhere

 

also, i am sure someone with a lot of time on their hands has made a polar table from the the graphic on the game website - if anyone knows of a link to the file.., can you post it?

 

 

Virtual Regatta does a huge virtual version of the Vendee (and they also ran the VOR game, and a bunch of other virtual races). They're expecting to get a million Vendee entries this time around. They introduced a brand new user interface for it, so I'm not sure yet what's going to differ between the version a bunch of us used for VOR and this one. I think (but I'm not sure) that one change is to have the real boats shown in the game interface, or at least the current leader. It also has the polars, etc. If several of us do it, we should probably start a separate thread about it, like we did for VORG and the Clipper Race.

 

 

I'm not aware of anything, though, that's for running hypothetical routings for the real boats from their present positions at any given time.

 

 

not interested in the virtual race game

 

i want to import the positions into expedition

 

i guess it was the VOR.., but they made it very easy by providing the position updates in a text file that could be downloaded from the website

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This is going to be the most exciting race ever. Perhaps I said that four years ago but it's true again now.

 

Btw, I'll be arriving in Les Sables on Nov 1st. Will be there through the 7th, checking in with the three boats we have in the race with our batteries:

Rich Wilson on GA4 (Genasun)

Alex Thomson on Hugo Boss (OPE-Li3)

Jean Le Cam on Finistere Mer Vent (OPE-Li3)

 

We also supplied high-output alternators to Alex & Jean.

 

Will try to crank out some reports for you all here on SA, or at least will coordinate with Clean to get some inside news sent out.

 

Who is using what other than your batteries? Whats the difference between the Genasun and OPE-Li3?

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In addition to batteries:

HB has 2x 160A x 24V alternators (By American Power)

JLC has 1x 180A x 24V alternator (also by AP)

Both Rich & HB have Solbian solar panels & Genasun solar controllers, others probably do as well.

Rich has Watt & Sea hydro (most do) and Philippi PSM energy monitoring.

OPE-Li3 is the next generation of Li batteries, made for us by Lithionics. The BMS is to our specs, which is a development of what we learned with Genasun coupled with Lithionics tech. PM me if you'd like some info/diagrams/manuals/etc.

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What a great video --thanks! But it sure as hell isn't "foiling"-it's using a foil and the keel to assist planing and it is spectacular. I wonder what the poor guys that think that is foiling are going to say is going on when they really are foiling??!

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What a great video --thanks! But it sure as hell isn't "foiling"-it's using a foil and the keel to assist planing and it is spectacular. I wonder what the poor guys that think that is foiling are going to say is going on when they really are foiling??!

 

 

dude, what is your fucking problem? just say it was a great video and leave it at that.

 

Who gives a fuck what you think foiling is or isn't.

 

go away...

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What a great video --thanks! But it sure as hell isn't "foiling"-it's using a foil and the keel to assist planing and it is spectacular. I wonder what the poor guys that think that is foiling are going to say is going on when they really are foiling??!

 

 

dude, what is your fucking problem? just say it was a great video and leave it at that.

 

Who gives a fuck what you think foiling is or isn't.

 

go away...

 

don't feed the troll moron .

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In the video, HB's foil looks like it sticks out maybe 1/2 meter more than others? Is there a width limit on the foils? Or is width wide open?

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AFAIK there is no width limit for the foils.

The foils are asymmetrical, so their movement is limited to 1 axis. [via class rules C.7.1.f]

As I understand all teams selected up-down as adjustment. In-out is only for experimentation before the race and easier harbor access. The extension of both foils gets fixed before the VG start and stays that way until the finish. (The exception being cases of the front ...foil.. fell off.)

 

 

(Any corrections?)

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In the video, HB's foil looks like it sticks out maybe 1/2 meter more than others? Is there a width limit on the foils? Or is width wide open?

HB is a narrower boat than the other latest gen boats so they carry wider foils. Also their foils exit through the deck where the others don't. They're also long enough that they can't both be rectracted fully at the same time

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Maitre Coq (Jérémie Beyou's boat) is the only one to have some kind of little daggerboards (vertical fins) on his foils, it is also the only boat on which the foils have been added afterwards, right ?

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Maitre Coq (Jérémie Beyou's boat) is the only one to have some kind of little daggerboards (vertical fins) on his foils, it is also the only boat on which the foils have been added afterwards, right ?

 

Correct.

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In the video, HB's foil looks like it sticks out maybe 1/2 meter more than others? Is there a width limit on the foils? Or is width wide open?

HB is a narrower boat than the other latest gen boats so they carry wider foils. Also their foils exit through the deck where the others don't. They're also long enough that they can't both be rectracted fully at the same time

 

OK, but is there a limit on foil length? Your first statement implies there is? A longer foil would have a longer lever arm so a smaller foil could be used, or more sail carrying power. Don't see these programs giving either away unless there is some constraint.

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Maitre Coq (Jérémie Beyou's boat) is the only one to have some kind of little daggerboards (vertical fins) on his foils, it is also the only boat on which the foils have been added afterwards, right ?

 

Yes and yes. Different foil (kiwi) designer

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Maitre Coq (Jérémie Beyou's boat) is the only one to have some kind of little daggerboards (vertical fins) on his foils, it is also the only boat on which the foils have been added afterwards, right ?

 

Yes and yes. Different foil (kiwi) designer

 

I sorta remember that the lower stubs were added? To improve upwind ability, which all the foils sacrifice a bit.

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speaking of upwind, it seems to me the foil boats would get spanked in pretty much most conditions compared to the late generation daggerboard boats. would lengthy periods of true upwind work cause the foilers to bleed miles, and how bad??

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Yes they suffer in straight upwind courses. All the teams have done serious weather/wind angle predictions to assess the trade offs. Note that all the new builds are foiled.

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Foilers are as good upwind vmg speaking as any of the boats other than prb and sma.

 

The foils can go in and out. They are not fixed.

 

Hugo boss foils are longer and the boat is a foot narrower. Their foils are asymmetric tip and shaft. Everyone else has a symmetric shaft. They want the tip to do all the work and the shaft to just carry it, as low drag as possible, where Alex's use the entire foil to create rm and lift.

 

For this reason Hugo boss foils are probably the most powerful, but not quite as good as the others when closer to the wind, and slightly better broad reaching and running.

 

Maitre Coq had the down tips on their foils from the beginning. They are smaller and lower drag (most likely) than the others.

 

The limit to the foils is simply not to create enough power to break the mast. The boats have load cells in the foil cases and cap shrouds in owner to make sure. When they are close to the limit they are just retracted a bit which reduces load immediately.

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Thank you. So the 'class spec' mast is the limiter. Any idea what 'lift off' wind & boat speeds are?

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Foilers are as good upwind vmg speaking as any of the boats other than prb and sma.

 

The foils can go in and out. They are not fixed.

 

Hugo boss foils are longer and the boat is a foot narrower. Their foils are asymmetric tip and shaft. Everyone else has a symmetric shaft. They want the tip to do all the work and the shaft to just carry it, as low drag as possible, where Alex's use the entire foil to create rm and lift.

 

For this reason Hugo boss foils are probably the most powerful, but not quite as good as the others when closer to the wind, and slightly better broad reaching and running.

 

Maitre Coq had the down tips on their foils from the beginning. They are smaller and lower drag (most likely) than the others.

 

The limit to the foils is simply not to create enough power to break the mast. The boats have load cells in the foil cases and cap shrouds in owner to make sure. When they are close to the limit they are just retracted a bit which reduces load immediately.

 

Foilers?! You've got to be kidding......why would you say that? Not all boats that use foils are "foilers"-especially when they drag their ass all the time. This is the same level of development as the big tri's were at nearly 30 years ago using ama foils for foil assist to reduce displacement but nobody back then called them "foilers".

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Because the rest of the world is not a raving fanatic on the subject.

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It's like calling a 60's car with fins an "airplane" and just as silly. I keep asking: what will you call them when they really foil? I mean if they're foilers now what then??

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Doug, I use the term foilers to differentiate from the boats with normal daggerboards. That's it.

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The foils help all the time. If you retract the foil upwind in 10 knots, the boat heels over about 5 degrees more.

 

In terms of getting clear of the water it depends on the angle, but in about 15 knots beam reaching the boat will sit on the foil doing 18 or 19 out of the water to the keel.

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wow, that's impressive, a lot of raw lifting happening there. guess it shouldn't be a surprise though, those foils aren't exactly small.

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Doug, I use the term foilers to differentiate from the boats with normal daggerboards. That's it.

 

You understand that but there appear to be many who think these boats actually foil. You could say "foil assist"-used for years to describe tri's using foils to reduce displacement-as opposed to tri's with "normal" daggerboards?

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Seems people are arguing about using the words foils, "foilers" etc. in connection with Imocas which use appendages designed to provide a component of vertical lift.

To clarify it for myself I looked up a few definitions. See below. My conclusion: these seem perfectly appropriate words to use, that is unless you want to invent some new words with much narrower definitions than those already commonly accepted.

It would seem pedantic and probably incorrect to insist that the term foil can only be used if the entire hull is lifted out of the water. A power driven hydrofoil is still a hydrofoil and has foils when operating at speeds below those at which the entire hull is lifted out of the water..

Incidentally, Websters actually defines a "foiler" as "one who foils or frustrates". (!!!)

 

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

Simple Definition of hydrofoil

: a very fast boat that rises partly out of the water when moving at high speeds

Full Definition of hydrofoil

1 : a body similar to an airfoil but designed for action in or on water

2 : a motorboat that has metal plates or fins attached by struts fore and aft for lifting the hull clear of the water as speed is attained

 

Source: Oxford Dictionaries

hydrofoil, noun

1. A boat whose hull is fitted underneath with shaped vanes (foils) which lift the hull clear of the water at speed.

1.1Each of the foils of a hydrofoil.

 

Source: Wikipedia

hydrofoil

A hydrofoil is a lifting surface, or foil, that operates in water. They are similar in appearance and purpose to aerofoils used by aeroplanes. Boats that use hydrofoil technology are also simply termed hydrofoils. As a hydrofoil craft gains speed, the hydrofoils lift the boat's hull out of the water, decreasing drag and allowing greater speeds.

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In the days before foiling(to sail a boat that is completely lifted out of the water on hydrofoils) was all the rage, to say that a boat was foiling when part of it was still floating/planing was ridiculed and should be now. How do you differentiate between a boat that is actually foiling and one that is dragging its transom? Why should you?

Because language becomes jibberish if you don't.........

 

Orville and Jethro:

Hey, Orville what the hell that boat doin? That’s foilin man! How ya tell? See the daylight under the front end-that’s how you tell. But ,Orville what about the back end? Don’t worry your head none about that-its comin along……

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Doug, I use the term foilers to differentiate from the boats with normal daggerboards. That's it.

 

You understand that but there appear to be many who think these boats actually foil. You could say "foil assist"-used for years to describe tri's using foils to reduce displacement-as opposed to tri's with "normal" daggerboards?

 

 

You could. But there would be no point, because people understand what is meant by 'foilers' in the context of IMOCA, Doug. So fuck off with your semantics.

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Doug, I use the term foilers to differentiate from the boats with normal daggerboards. That's it.

You understand that but there appear to be many who think these boats actually foil. You could say "foil assist"-used for years to describe tri's using foils to reduce displacement-as opposed to tri's with "normal" daggerboards?

Is there no thread that Doug won't pollute??

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In the days before foiling(to sail a boat that is completely lifted out of the water on hydrofoils) was all the rage, to say that a boat was foiling when part of it was still floating/planing was ridiculed and should be now. How do you differentiate between a boat that is actually foiling and one that is dragging its transom? Why should you?

Because language becomes jibberish if you don't.........

 

Orville and Jethro:

Hey, Orville what the hell that boat doin? That’s foilin man! How ya tell? See the daylight under the front end-that’s how you tell. But ,Orville what about the back end? Don’t worry your head none about that-its comin along……

post pics of your " foiler" with you on board ! it would give you a lot more credibitlity .

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