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waterboy42

ETNZ Nosedive!!

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Massive nosedive by ETNZ

What were the causes?

- Sailing too conservatively...

- Downspeed bear away

- cavitation or ventilation

- stalling foil lift

- elevator foils too small

- big gust during bear away

- foil AoA settings

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bearing away too quickly in the gust ? perhaps he could have gained speed by luffing a fit ?

or the contrary, to conservative and not bearing away fast enough ?

 

Comments will be interesting

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Massive nosedive by ETNZ

What were the causes?

- Sailing too conservatively...

- Downspeed bear away

- cavitation or ventilation

- stalling foil lift

- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

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Massive nosedive by ETNZ

What were the causes?

- Sailing too conservatively...

- Downspeed bear away

- cavitation or ventilation

- stalling foil lift

- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in those OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

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Massive nosedive by ETNZ

What were the causes?

- Sailing too conservatively...

- Downspeed bear away

- cavitation or ventilation

- stalling foil lift

- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing.

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.

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It's interesting whether that would have occurred in a contested race.

Maybe the pressure coming off decreased crew concentration a bit...

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Well, it floated... more than can be said for some other boats. And it looks real strong. But it's good to see nothing is perfect.

 

I was listening to LR onboard and it was great - "they will have shit their pants" - thanks Max! :)

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Massive nosedive by ETNZ

What were the causes?

- Sailing too conservatively...

- Downspeed bear away

- cavitation or ventilation

- stalling foil lift

- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing.

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.

 

FFS dude you are a joke.... Elevators were out of the water the bow was to only thing stopping that PP.

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Massive nosedive by ETNZ

What were the causes?

- Sailing too conservatively...

- Downspeed bear away

- cavitation or ventilation

- stalling foil lift

- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing.

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.

 

Not hard to know at all, Or has already shown us quite well thank you very much.

 

To avoid getting in that situation..stay at home in your big girls blouse...oh and don't sail multi's of course!!...

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Massive nosedive by ETNZ

What were the causes?

- Sailing too conservatively...

- Downspeed bear away

- cavitation or ventilation

- stalling foil lift

- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing.

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.

 

FFS dude you are a joke.... Elevators were out of the water the bow was to only thing stopping that PP.

 

audio commentary ken read said elevators stayed in the water.

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Massive nosedive by ETNZ

What were the causes?

- Sailing too conservatively...

- Downspeed bear away

- cavitation or ventilation

- stalling foil lift

- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing.

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.

 

Not hard to know at all, Or has already shown us quite well thank you very much.

 

To avoid getting in that situation..stay at home in your big girls blouse...oh and don't sail multi's of course!!...

 

How about not bearing away so quickly before picking up some speed? It is not as though crew-work was not to blame there. You can bet your ass Dean will be the first to admit it. ETNZ has made mark roundings in tougher conditions than that and not had the slightest problem.

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We can be so grateful there was no extra lead in the king post.....she might have kept going down??

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Elevators are assymetric and comply with size mind as per the Coast Guard certificate.

 

Grasp at as many straws as you want. It was a stuff on a bearaway, probably attributed to a few crew mistakes.

 

They will be stronger as a result. They will have learnt a lot.

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It is not as though crew-work was not to blame there. You can bet your ass Dean will be the first to admit it.

 

And he just did on TV... something along the lines of "we could have done some things better".

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Waterboy'

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

 

It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.

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GMR_9093-1-780x520.jpg

 

Looks buried well beyond the main beam, although pretty hard to tell with all the spray.

Spectacular to watch. Will be all over the news tonight. Maybe even in US?

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

Before these shots the elevators looked to be both momentarily out of the water as the bows angled down..

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The rudder elevators came right out of the water. Way above the surface. No question about it.

 

What most worried me was Waddell and Ward going over.

 

I think Chris went through the fairing. This would put him far too close to appendages underneath.

 

It is wonder Rob did not take his handlebars with him.

 

It is a miracle only two went over.

 

I know SFA about this. But, it looks like there was a problem with the angle of the main foil. With the nose going down, rudder elevators were stunningly irrelevant.

 

If the entire boat is rounding a corner on one foil at an improper angle it causes the "drama and carnage" Tucker Thompson seems to enjoy.

 

I am glad nobody was hurt and very much hope LR get their board problem sorted before Race 2.

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The angle from the cam on the bowsprit shows the rudder passing through the wake of the main foil just before the boat pitches forward.

 

If the rudder stabilizer was loaded up holding the rear down at a crucial moment, ventilation from hitting the froth in the wake allowed it to just pull up and out of the water.

 

For this type of situation, the stabilizer area is probably less important than the total width of the stabilizer.

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

Before these shots the elevators looked to be both momentarily out of the water as the bows angled down..

 

Not momentarily. They were out of the water. Period.

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

 

It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.

 

 

FFS, did you guys watch the race?

 

The rudder elevators were out of the water.

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But, it looks like there was a problem with the angle of the main foil. With the nose going down, rudder elevators were stunningly irrelevant.

 

I agree, I believe the foil was trimmed to stall or failed into that position. The rudders are irrelevant when the bows are 2 feet under.

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

Before these shots the elevators looked to be both momentarily out of the water as the bows angled down..

 

Not momentarily. They were out of the water. Period.

 

Already front page of stuff.co.nz

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

In a more serious PP scenario, wouldn't the extra volume in the bow make the elevators break the water surface earlier?

 

Either way, no harm done, and what a cool photo!

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I think you will find that the angle of incidence was too great on the boards just prior to the gust and they launched too high. Probably just at that time, DB tried to get her down a bit to keep control but the boards took over and all too quick, she fired in. I'm sure it was a great learning incident and very much a operator era. Whether the stored power couldn't get the lift angle back quick enough, is another question.

Split second stuff going on....better now than later.

Love those high lift angle of attack bows....saved the day

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

 

As I said, sometimes you do not get it!

 

It had nothing to do with "smaller/faster/less-control" rudder elevators.

 

When needed most, they (the rudder elevators) were in the air.

 

Not the water.

 

The problem was with the angle of the main foil on the starboard side.

 

You can guarantee they will not make this mistake again. Because the consequences are worse than most of us would like to contemplate.

 

I like all NZ crew members and do not want to see anyone killed or hurt.

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GMR_9093-1-780x520.jpg

 

Looks buried well beyond the main beam, although pretty hard to tell with all the spray.

Spectacular to watch. Will be all over the news tonight. Maybe even in US?

:D that's some funny shit right there.

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I looked again, and from the side you can see a definite sudden lift of the rear right before the bows go under.

 

The main foil AOA did seem to be set such that they were headed for putting the nose pretty deep for a "normal" on the edge rounding, but then, "Oh sh-t" the rudder stabilizer lost grip and down she went.

 

I remember hearing team members talk about loss of control when a rudder crosses the froth from the main. At the time I was just thinking it would be a nervous moment as the rear slips sideways until it gets to clean water. I did not think through loss of the "stabilizer" effect in a bear away.

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audio commentary ken read said elevators stayed in the water.

 

Do not believe everything you hear in audio commentary.

 

A picture is worth 1000 words.

 

agreed, but i trust Ken, and he made a point to look at the replay and mention exactly thtat.

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Super impressed how ETNZ were patched up and ready to race in about 20mins.

Obviously they wouldn't have risked that if damage was beyond cosmetic, as limping around the course is more dangerous than racing properly.

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

As I said, sometimes you do not get it!

 

It had nothing to do with "smaller/faster/less-control" rudder elevators.

 

When needed most, they (the rudder elevators) were in the air.

 

You sure are awfully wound up about this! Call me crazy, but wasn't the whole purpose of IM's rule change so that "when needed most" the rudders would be in the water, and not the air?!?

 

Edit: and well done to ETNZ. They've obviously done good work designing a boat to survive that.

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

so are the rudders

 

I think the AC 34 and the 72s are awesome but the terminology is just plain fucking stupid

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^ Looks like a submarine with the captain screaming "dive! dive! dive!"

Awesome shot, even if I'm not keen to see it happen again.

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Their bow volume really saved them today, it's not necessarily a crew error but more of a timing error where they got hit by a puff during the beeraway.

 

Good thing nobody got serious hurt.

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maybe the starboard foil was just down to far which didn't give enough water above the rudder foil as the boat was foiling to high out of the water. Plausible to as they were coming from upwind/board down to downwind board half up...

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

 

It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.

.

and thats it in a nutshell,

 

in extreme sports Victory will belong to those who spend the most time beyond the normal mortals 'comfort zone'

 

this is not a j/105 race populated by sa internet warriors

 

put your life on the line and take the trophy

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Good to see the boys giving her a hard time. No one seemed too stressed about it afterwards. I thought it lucky that the guys who fell over didn't collect the rudders.

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Their bow volume really saved them today, it's not necessarily a crew error but more of a timing error where they got hit by a puff during the beeraway.

 

Good thing nobody got serious hurt.

 

I think you are wrong. These boats will be hit by all kinds of "puff."

 

The angle of the starboard board was not appropriate for what the boat was being asked to do.

 

The crew (long ago learned from Ashby) to drive it hard around the corners.

 

Provided everything is aligned, it should turn nicely - like a ballerina in the National Ballet.

 

But, if the angle is wrong and rudder elevators pop out of the water, it is time to visit the fish.

 

I bet taniwha in the starboard hull are bruised and pissed-off. There will also be bruised crew members.

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TK, from what I've seen on every replay the rudder elevators were IN the water as the bows went under, and then came out. It happened very quickly, but I beleive the bows went in first.

 

As to why it happened - on one of the replays Dean says just moments before that a big puff (or gust) was about to hit, and that was probably the event that initated the sequence that followed. We all know that bearing away is the most likely point of sailing where a PP can occur, and being hit by a gust at that very moment was not unexpected. It will make the team stronger and give them more confidence in Aotearoa.

 

Stingray, your constant harping-on about elevators is wearing a bit thin. One commentator remarked that if the symetrical elevators had been installed, then there was a real possibility that Rob Wadell, who fell outboard of the hull, may very well have been hit by it. Thankfully the orignial rule was retained.

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Rudders in or out of the water do not appear to be an issue. It is really once the bow(s) are that far under, will the boat continue to pitch pole all the way or will the boat just come to a stop? Luckily the boat came to a stop. Go ETNZ!

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^ looked like a pure main foil issue to me - not rudders. Drive/linkage problem, slow response, wrong setting, crew error. Dean wasn't ready to throw anyone under the bus, but nor did he say that he screwed up.

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^ looked like a pure main foil issue to me - not rudders. Drive/linkage problem, slow response, wrong setting, crew error. Dean wasn't ready to throw anyone under the bus, but nor did he say that he screwed up.

 

+1

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was it the dagger-board pitch/angle?

 

that woud be my gess, along with tyming (manely I think on the helm, dont think Ashby scrood up on wing trim) but there not lykely to tell us in enny detail.

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^ looked like a pure main foil issue to me - not rudders. Drive/linkage problem, slow response, wrong setting, crew error. Dean wasn't ready to throw anyone under the bus, but nor did he say that he screwed up.

 

Correct!

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

 

It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.

 

FFS, did you guys watch the race?

 

The rudder elevators were out of the water.

FFS, are you even more an idiot than what you come across as?

 

The WHOLE POINT behind IM's desire to mandate big elevators of a minimum size was to ADD SURFACE CONTROL so as to PREVENT ANYONE from getting into situations so fucked up, nose down that hard, that farkin' DANGEROUS to the team's crew.

 

Yes a lot of factors were for sure at play but that Absolutely Was The Intent behind the Safety Rule that ETNZ went to war over, that ignited RudderGate.

 

FFS yourself. That was DANGEROUS.

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FFS Stingray, drop it, you're sounding retarded. It was the main foil not being set at a higher angle of attack that tripped the boat; the rudders had FA to do with it. To spell it out into your shell like (but clogged) ear; once the bows were immersed waay down, the main lee foil was at negative attack ... AND only the intelligently designed bows saved the boat from doing an Oracle.

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nah since the start of the ACWS you haven't needed to finish with all the crew.

 

Stuff.co.nz are saying how ETNZ went on for the win?

No you not have to have all your crew on-board for the finish in the AC?

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Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

 

It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.

 

FFS, did you guys watch the race?

 

The rudder elevators were out of the water.

FFS, are you even more an idiot than what you come across as?

 

The WHOLE POINT behind IM's desire to mandate big elevators of a minimum size was to ADD SURFACE CONTROL so as to PREVENT ANYONE from getting into situations so fucked up, nose down that hard, that farkin' DANGEROUS to the team's crew.

 

Yes a lot of factors were for sure at play but that Absolutely Was The Intent behind the Safety Rule that ETNZ went to war over, that ignited RudderGate.

 

FFS yourself. That was DANGEROUS.

 

FFS spinray, barn door elevators would not have saved shit in this case....give up while you are still way behind.

Operator era and they will learn from this!!!

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The angle of the starboard board was not appropriate for what the boat was being asked to do

 

The board was at max rake.

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A lot of you guys seem to be ignoring that the videos clearly show the rear of the boat pulling up as the rudder stabilizer lost grip when hit the froth from the main foil.

 

That sudden change of AOA on the boat is what put the nose into the water at the steep angle.

 

Go back and look at the sequence before the nose hit and just tell us that the rear does not rapidly rise just before impact.

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Massive nosedive by ETNZ

 

- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

I bet you're so glad they didn't get forced to have larger, symmetrical elevators.

 

Rob Waddell would have been cut in two had that been the case.

 

ETNZ showed why having more volume in the hulls matters (in addition to a section of flat bottom ahead of the foil). Oracle's boat would have been fully upside down in that same nose-dive.

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TK, from what I've seen on every replay the rudder elevators were IN the water as the bows went under, and then came out. It happened very quickly, but I beleive the bows went in first.

 

As to why it happened - on one of the replays Dean says just moments before that a big puff (or gust) was about to hit, and that was probably the event that initated the sequence that followed. We all know that bearing away is the most likely point of sailing where a PP can occur, and being hit by a gust at that very moment was not unexpected. It will make the team stronger and give them more confidence in Aotearoa.

 

Stingray, your constant harping-on about elevators is wearing a bit thin. One commentator remarked that if the symetrical elevators had been installed, then there was a real possibility that Rob Wadell, who fell outboard of the hull, may very well have been hit by it. Thankfully the orignial rule was retained.

This just emphasizes how constantly harping on Safety actually matters! Exhibit A, right there.

 

And one of the guys went down inboard, through the tramp, so what is your point again? It's amazing he didn't get cut by that largely in-pointing assym elevator.

 

Anything to help prevent pitches is a damn good idea in my book.

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TK, from what I've seen on every replay the rudder elevators were IN the water as the bows went under, and then came out. It happened very quickly, but I beleive the bows went in first.

 

As to why it happened - on one of the replays Dean says just moments before that a big puff (or gust) was about to hit, and that was probably the event that initated the sequence that followed. We all know that bearing away is the most likely point of sailing where a PP can occur, and being hit by a gust at that very moment was not unexpected. It will make the team stronger and give them more confidence in Aotearoa.

 

Stingray, your constant harping-on about elevators is wearing a bit thin. One commentator remarked that if the symetrical elevators had been installed, then there was a real possibility that Rob Wadell, who fell outboard of the hull, may very well have been hit by it. Thankfully the orignial rule was retained.

This just emphasizes how constantly harping on Safety actually matters! Exhibit A, right there.

 

And one of the guys went down inboard, through the tramp, so what is your point again?

 

Anything to help prevent pitches is a damn good idea in my book.

 

Like more bow volume?

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Looks to me like the rudder foils did their job and that there was main foil lift missing for some reason.Almost like they tripped....

I don't think adjustable rudder foils would have prevented this but no question in my mind that adjustable rudder foils are a safety requirement and should be agreed to by all teams.

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Did bow volume prevent them nosing that hard?

 

You want to ~prevent~ getting into that f'cked of a situation.

 

The best possible safety rule next time around is going to be either a min elevator size on the tails or even better yet, adjustable on the fly ones.

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Did bow volume prevent them nosing that hard?

 

You want to ~prevent~ getting into that f'cked of a situation.

 

Nothing can prevent them nosing, its impossible.

To suggest that bigger rudders was going to prevent that nose dive is just fanciful.

So, instead you want to have enough safety margin in the boat that if/when it does happen, you have a good chance of coming out of it.

 

Seriously Stinger, ruddergate again? We still aint past weightgate.

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FFS Stingray, drop it, you're sounding retarded. It was the main foil not being set at a higher angle of attack that tripped the boat; the rudders had FA to do with it. To spell it out into your shell like (but clogged) ear; once the bows were immersed waay down, the main lee foil was at negative attack ... AND only the intelligently designed bows saved the boat from doing an Oracle.

winner winner chicken dinner

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TK, from what I've seen on every replay the rudder elevators were IN the water as the bows went under, and then came out. It happened very quickly, but I beleive the bows went in first.

 

As to why it happened - on one of the replays Dean says just moments before that a big puff (or gust) was about to hit, and that was probably the event that initated the sequence that followed. We all know that bearing away is the most likely point of sailing where a PP can occur, and being hit by a gust at that very moment was not unexpected. It will make the team stronger and give them more confidence in Aotearoa.

 

Stingray, your constant harping-on about elevators is wearing a bit thin. One commentator remarked that if the symetrical elevators had been installed, then there was a real possibility that Rob Wadell, who fell outboard of the hull, may very well have been hit by it. Thankfully the orignial rule was retained.

This just emphasizes how constantly harping on Safety actually matters! Exhibit A, right there.

 

And one of the guys went down inboard, through the tramp, so what is your point again? It's amazing he didn't get cut by that largely in-pointing assym elevator.

 

Anything to help prevent pitches is a damn good idea in my book.

 

Stinger, I accept that one of the guys fell inside the hull, but the odds are that for every person who falls overboard most will fall OUTSIDE. One can never eliminate every risk (apart from staying in the shed), so it's still better to reduce the most LIKELY risk rather than EVERY risk. Your answer ignores this.

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Did bow volume prevent them nosing that hard?

 

You want to ~prevent~ getting into that f'cked of a situation.

Nothing can prevent them nosing, its impossible.

To suggest that bigger rudders was going to prevent that nose dive is just fanciful.

So, instead you want to have enough safety margin in the boat that if/when it does happen, you have a good chance of coming out of it.

 

Seriously Stinger, ruddergate again? We still aint past weightgate.

It's not an argument that big, attitude control-helping, rudder elevators would ~necessarily~ have been enough to prevent that f-up; it is an argument that it Would Have Helped.

 

That was the entire intent of that Safety Rule.

 

Who lit the fuse, fought it tooth and nail, created Ruddergate, and damn near killed someone today?

 

Waiting...

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