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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

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Phil S

Moth Worlds Hawaii 2013

326 posts in this topic

What was remarkable was how rare it was to see the top 10 spots not change from leg to leg, lot of variability. Also the ability to porttack the fleet is note worthy, much rarer in a nonfoiling class.

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ZFP is new in the 2013-16 rules.

 

30.2 Z Flag Rule

If flag Z has been displayed, no part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal. If a boat breaks this rule and is identified, she shall receive, without a hearing, a 20% Scoring Penalty calculated as stated in rule 44.3©. She shall be penalized even if the race is restarted or resailed, but not if it is postponed or abandoned before the starting signal. If she is similarly identified during a subsequent attempt to start the same race, she shall receive an additional 20% Scoring Penalty.

 

The rule stops wrong side of the line the line dip starts.

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Casper Arvefors talks about the Scandinavian Moth fleet and international rivalries on Day One.

 

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What has happened to Pete Burling? A long way back in the fleet after 'winning' the Australian titles ahead of Babbage, Outteridge, McKnight.

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What has happened to Pete Burling? A long way back in the fleet after 'winning' the Australian titles ahead of Babbage, Outteridge, McKnight.

 

And Dave Lister

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Also the ability to porttack the fleet is note worthy, much rarer in a nonfoiling class.

A 12' boat going 15-20 knots doesn't need much of a gap to get through.

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Also the ability to porttack the fleet is note worthy, much rarer in a nonfoiling class.

A 12' boat going 15-20 knots doesn't need much of a gap to get through.

It's even easier if you sail a class legal Moth that is 11' long :P

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huge crash today...info to come. check the facebook page for uptotheminute stuff.

 

Hotties learning to moth as well on camera...today's video is going to be a bit longer than the last few...

 

awesome.

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Fortunately when someone gets a 1st and two 2nds second and two firsts that gives a fairly robust response.

^_^

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If before the regatta began, I had been offered a bet , even money about a US sailor in the top five, I would ahve taken it on either side of the bet. No way I would have believed three of the top five US. Dunno if our guys are getting better or we just rule light wind.

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If before the regatta began, I had been offered a bet , even money about a US sailor in the top five, I would ahve taken it on either side of the bet. No way I would have believed three of the top five US. Dunno if our guys are getting better or we just rule light wind.

Yes, they're doing very well. Few days of racing to go yet though…

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Thanks Clean and the media team. It's keeping us workers very distracted and entertained through the work day. Cheers

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Holy shit Loick Peyron!

 

How many others out there would qualify for the "Master-Grandmaster" field if they were in lasers?

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Spent a good half hour hanging with Loick tonight; fucking love that guy. "I am just happy to be learning," he said, after showing me the 8" gash and 12 stitches it took to close it; a shroud impact...

 

Today he broke his tiller. Still smiling, still smoking.

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Can anyone tell me some more about Julian Salter?

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Can anyone tell me some more about Julian Salter?

Clean

He is a really talented, up and coming sailor from Tasmania. I don't know him personally but I knew his Dad and I can tell you he has some good sailing genes.

He is NO overnight sensation however, but has been working ferociously on his sailing, over many years, to get to this point.

His previous results all point to an upwards trend hehe

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Interesting both Anthony and Bora are not using the bungy cord on their wands. Less drag? More lift?

Love the tell tales on the boom and under the wing :-)

If the forecast is right, this is will be your winner...

 

13_26290-mothworlds-day3.jpg

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Can anyone tell me some more about Julian Salter?

Clean

He is a really talented, up and coming sailor from Tasmania. I don't know him personally but I knew his Dad and I can tell you he has some good sailing genes.

He is NO overnight sensation however, but has been working ferociously on his sailing, over many years, to get to this point.

His previous results all point to an upwards trend hehe

He had the only Bladerider in the gold fleet at the 2011 worlds. Ask Rob Gough, they train a lot together.

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Interesting both Anthony and Bora are not using the bungy cord on their wands. Less drag? More lift?

 

They may have an alternative system that you can't see (e.g. bungie to the bell crank at the top of the main strut). In flat conditions, the wand doesn't need to track tightly on the surface so little or no tension is required, the weight of the wand may be sufficient.

 

They are probably also running very little gearing so the flap hardly moves once at full ride height.

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In flat conditions, the wand doesn't need to track tightly on the surface so little or no tension is required, the weight of the wand may be sufficient.

They are probably also running very little gearing so the flap hardly moves once at full ride height.

 

Yeah, I agree. The more the wand pushes down the less lift is applied.

My may stick has come off a few times and it is actually good until you encounter waves over about 400mm.

The Mach 2.3 bow gearing system also helps pull the wand forward because of the tension on it to work.

They also run straight wands as opposed to the standard Mach 2 bent want, they also look really stiff.

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Can anyone tell me some more about Julian Salter?

Clean

He is a really talented, up and coming sailor from Tasmania. I don't know him personally but I knew his Dad and I can tell you he has some good sailing genes.

He is NO overnight sensation however, but has been working ferociously on his sailing, over many years, to get to this point.

His previous results all point to an upwards trend hehe

He had the only Bladerider in the gold fleet at the 2011 worlds. Ask Rob Gough, they train a lot together.
Better still ask him yourself, you are there after all. Even better still get Gretta to interview him.

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In flat conditions, the wand doesn't need to track tightly on the surface so little or no tension is required, the weight of the wand may be sufficient.

They are probably also running very little gearing so the flap hardly moves once at full ride height.

 

Yeah, I agree. The more the wand pushes down the less lift is applied.

My may stick has come off a few times and it is actually good until you encounter waves over about 400mm.

The Mach 2.3 bow gearing system also helps pull the wand forward because of the tension on it to work.

They also run straight wands as opposed to the standard Mach 2 bent want, they also look really stiff.

I got some custom detroit gear up under the bow

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I got some custom detroit gear up under the bow

.

 

.....a HEMI?!?! :blink::blink::rolleyes:

 

...good onya Bora--stay away from 'dem bananas!! ;)

 

.

 

.

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Josh's latest update is up on Green and Gold Sailing

I hope you guys are enjoying these updates

 

 

Well he definitely isn't going to challenge War & Peace with his prose ;) I have to say that is so light in detail. He is so verbose in the boat park he must be able to come up with some more detail.

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.

 

........I'm liking Bora's scoreline..... USA 7: Bora Gulari, Detroit, MI, [16]-1-2-1-3-3-7- ; 17

....... to this observer he often starts with a bag,,,ends with a fizzle--that shakey score at the start could do him well

 

....just stay away from them bananas!!

 

.

Interesting both Anthony and Bora are not using the bungy cord on their wands. Less drag? More lift?

Love the tell tales on the boom and under the wing :-)

If the forecast is right, this is will be your winner...

 

13_26290-mothworlds-day3.jpg

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May need to drive over the hill and check check it.

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So what happened with Chris Maas?

boat is prettiest thing here, and slowest.

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Can anyone tell me some more about Julian Salter?

Clean

He is a really talented, up and coming sailor from Tasmania. I don't know him personally but I knew his Dad and I can tell you he has some good sailing genes.

He is NO overnight sensation however, but has been working ferociously on his sailing, over many years, to get to this point.

His previous results all point to an upwards trend hehe

He had the only Bladerider in the gold fleet at the 2011 worlds. Ask Rob Gough, they train a lot together.
Better still ask him yourself, you are there after all. Even better still get Gretta to interview him.

Julian and his father Royce run a boat repair business here in Hobart and are probably the one of best craftsmen on the east coast. Julian grew up sailing sabots and even then the boats that Royce built were very innovative at the time and caused a lot of interest at scrutineering because of their novel features.

I don't think you could meet two more unassuming and down to earth sailors and they always have plenty of time to talk and assist if you have a problem with your boat. You can see their entry in the Launceston to Hobart race http://l2h.com.au/category/2012-entrants/ here if you scroll down to "Ramrod", a boat that Royce salvaged from nothing, yet its performance in that race was amazing.

It will be good to see how Julian develops in the coming years and I hope he gets plenty of opportunities to show his talents.

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Because we are all lecherous dogs.

.

 

...or actually appreciate beauty in a non-lecherous way!!

 

.

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Because we are all lecherous dogs.

.

 

...or actually appreciate beauty in a non-lecherous way!!

 

.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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Damn straight! Great stuff all, hope for more wind manana!

 

 

 

Because we are all lecherous dogs.

.

 

...or actually appreciate beauty in a non-lecherous way!!

 

.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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So what happened with Chris Maas?

 

Soooo Slooow! A crippling lack of skill coupled with poor foil section choices.

 

Oh well, the water's warm, the scenery's beautiful, and the sailors are super helpful to an old man newbie. What better place to learn to Moth?

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The boat is fucking gorgeous though. I'd love to do a proper interview with ya about it if you have the time tomorrow Chris.

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Chris I know a bunch of the more experienced guys want to sail your boat; if they do we'd love to hear some of their impressions too.

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This community astounds me - everyday.

 

+1

Very much so.

 

Chris, the pictures have me in awe, lets see more!

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One more thing about Chris; dude is a charger. Still out there ten minutes after the leaders have finished, still righting the boat and working her up on the foils...good stuff from a not-so-spring chicken.

 

a great effort.

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Not approved yet, but good enough for this place.

 

 

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

 

American Lead Solidifies As Breeze Wanes

Abandonment on Day 4 And Deteriorating Trades Put Balance Of Racing In Question With Seven Races Completed

 

Kaneohe Bay, HI (17 October 2013) – Talk around Kaneohe Yacht Club’s boat park this morning wasn’t about which foils to use or which sails were best for today’s racing. Instead, competitors at the 2013 McDougall + McConaghy Moth World Championship were worried if they’d get any racing in at all in the final two remaining days of the regatta.

 

“With 3-4 knots the likely max we’d see today, we’re abandoning the day so you can all go and enjoy Hawaii,” said Matt Knowles, US Moth Class President and organizer of the event at the morning briefing. “Models are all showing a tough couple of days ahead, but we’re hoping a window opens for a few more good, fair races.”

 

Bora Gulari’s (USA) five-point lead over Australia’s Nathan Outteridge becomes far more crucial with a reduced schedule ahead, though the 2009 Detroit-based World Champion isn’t counting on nature to make his life any easier. “For years I’ve been battling with Nathan at every major event, and it will only take one small error in any race to see my lead disappear,” said Gulari, busy preparing his boat for some practice in Thursday’s zephyrs. Bora was the first American to win a Moth World Title in 33 years when he won the event in Cascade Locks, Oregon; finishing just behind was Outteridge. Two years later, Aussie Gold Medalist and America’s Cup skipper Outteridge crushed the fleet in Belmont, Australia to win his first Moth Worlds.

 

American racer Brad Funk saw his lock on third place disappear when race officials corrected an earlier scoring error; the Florida Olympic sailor now sits in fourth place, tied on points with 3rd place Julian Salter from Tasmania (AUS). Fellow Tasmanian Rob Gough rounds out the top 5. Full results.

 

Injuries, Damage Surprisingly Small After “Scariest Boat Crash I’ve Ever Seen”

 

The first top mark of Race 4 of the Championship was the site of the “scariest boat crash I’ve ever seen,” according to one witness, yet neither of the two sailors involved suffered more than a scratch. “I was coming in on the port tack layline, ducking a wall of starboard tackers,” explained Tom Offer (GBR). “Philip [Käsermann] was on starboard, and I think he bore away to let me through just as I was bearing away to go behind him.” At a closing speed of nearly 40 knots, the bow of Offer’s Exocet moth tore into the Swiss sailor’s wing bar, bringing both boats to a spectacular stop and catapulting both sailors through the air and into the water. Offer’s royal blue dinghy suffered damage to the bow though was otherwise unharmed. “It’s a bit much to reconstruct the nose right now, and while I’m massively disappointed to end my regatta after such strong results, I’m very happy neither of us was hurt,” Offer said. Käsermann’s boat was luckier. “I’ve changed the wing bar and will replace the broken boom; I can’t finish my sailing season with a retirement!” The incident served as a reminder of the skill needed to sail a moth at the very highest level. “One little misstep at these speeds can be catastrophic,” said Knowles.

 

Youth America’s Cup Star Wins $1000 “Velocitek Dash For Cash”

 

New Zealand hasn’t sent an army of competitors to this Worlds like their neighbor to the West, but Youth America’s Cup-winning skipper Peter Burling made up for the deficit in numbers with a victory in the annual Velocitek Dash For Cash contest. After downloading the data from each Velocitek speed-measuring device, Velocitek founder Alec Stewart announced that Burling had reached an incredible 25.0 knots of boatspeed; all in a maximum wind of around 11 knots – and between two races. “I came in after a race to replace a broken part, and I was definitely in a rush to get back to the start of the next race,” said Burling. The young Kiwi would start 4 minutes behind the fleet and still finish the race in the top ten. “We’ve really enjoyed supporting the Moth fleet over the years with the Dash For Cash,” said Stewart. “The cutting edge technology, incredible efficiency, and simplicity are exactly what Velocitek stands for.”

 

Overall Results After 7 Races (Top 5 Only):

 

1. USA 7: Bora Gulari, Detroit, MI, [16]-1-2-1-3-3-7- ; 17

2. AUS 3997: Nathan Outteridge, Wangi Wangi, Australia, 1-2-1-[11]-9-1-8- ; 22

3. AUS 8, Julian Salter, Tasmania, 11-9-8-5-2-[29]-5- ; 40

4. USA 1111: Brad Funk, Fort Lauderdale, FL, 24(ZFP)-5-4-3-5-5-[18]- ; 40

5. AUS 3, Rob Gough, Tasmania, [15]-8-13-8-8-2-4- ; 43

 

Full results are available here. You can find photos, video interviews, and other features at the Moth Worlds Facebook Page.

 

Images are free for editorial use to a maximum half-page size with mandatory credit to read ThMartinez/Sea&Co/International Moth Worlds. No modification or cropping (other than resizing) is permitted. Photo of Velocitek Dash For Cash Winner Peter Burling should be credited to Gretta Kruesi/www.grettakruesi.com.

 

Clean Racing Tip Of The Day

 

As one of the world's most elite racing classes, the International Moth Class believes it essential to emphasize the responsible use of energy and resources in the context of sailing. Working with 11th Hour Racing, a program of the Schmidt Family Foundation, the Moth Class has come up with a number of initiatives to help all sailing events improve the energy profile and performance of racing boats and increase the personal investment of sailors in the health of our waters. Each day, the Moth Worlds fleet will highlight a 'Clean Racing Tip' they've implemented; something that will work for regattas and racing classes around the world. Here’s today’s tip:

 

MINIMIZE POWER BOATS: As sailboats get faster and faster, coach/photo/support and spectator boats need to burn even more fuel to keep up. It’s just not worth it! Discourage support boats from “chasing” the sailors up and down the beats. This will save gas, reduce emissions, and cut down on wakes that interfere with the racing. Instead, designate good static viewing spots for coach boats, and require their compliance.

 

For photos, interview requests, or additional information about the Moth Worlds, please contact us at usmothclass@gmail.com.

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re: Clean RAcing Tip - I like that you guys have camped at the start - shifted to the the top mark - stayed there, then headed back to the finish. It gives a good summary of the unfolding changes.

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Thanks gibbo. when they moved to three leg races it made life a lot easier for us.

 

England should be either rough or inside and i want to do it live.

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So what happened with Chris Maas?

 

Soooo Slooow! A crippling lack of skill coupled with poor foil section choices.

 

Oh well, the water's warm, the scenery's beautiful, and the sailors are super helpful to an old man newbie. What better place to learn to Moth?

Curious re: foil sections; too much camber, or not enough? And if too much, maybe cut some area off?

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One more thing about Chris; dude is a charger. Still out there ten minutes after the leaders have finished, still righting the boat and working her up on the foils...good stuff from a not-so-spring chicken.

 

a great effort.

Yes, the sort of thing one expects from (multiple?) world champion sailors (International Canoe). As hard as moth sailing can be for a neophyte, it doesn't really compare to the beating an IC can dish out.

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One more thing about Chris; dude is a charger. Still out there ten minutes after the leaders have finished, still righting the boat and working her up on the foils...good stuff from a not-so-spring chicken.

 

a great effort.

Yes, the sort of thing one expects from (multiple?) world champion sailors (International Canoe). As hard as moth sailing can be for a neophyte, it doesn't really compare to the beating an IC can dish out.

These aren't exactly weekend warriors out there either. AC guys, Olympic medalists, multiClass world champs, the Jules Verne record holder and a fleet of 80 boats in seemingly very difficult conditions. Then again, Chris is a master artisan in carbon and currently holds the second oldest trophy in international sailing. He has nothing to prove and his continued pursuit of extra awesome is downright cool as shit. At least in my opinion as a guy who likely isn't good enough to even make it into the category of being a danger to myself and others ;) .

 

Actually now that i look again Chis has a 1 point lead on the 4th place finisher at the London games in the radial, provided she is far better looking, but that certainly speaks to the competition. Rock on Chris!

 

 

It would be better with pics and an interview though. Bora, Nathan, Loick, Chris, Annelise calling it a diverse event seems an understatement.

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Curious re: foil sections; too much camber, or not enough? And if too much, maybe cut some area off?

 

Too much camber according to Dave Lister, who's opinion I trust. And yet I'm not taking off fast in marginal conditions so I'm not inclined to cut the tips off just yet. Man, there is little more painful than being run over by forty foiling Moths at the start line. I feel like a tortoise on the freeway.

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Any pics of your ship around, Chris?

I'm assuming your rig is largely off the shelf and platform down to weight.

Can you get a swap with one of these guys after a shot on yours? See what the differences are..

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How many others out there would qualify for the "Master-Grandmaster" field if they were in lasers?

 

He's not out at the worlds but Colin Newman in the UK is still mothing and has qualified as great grandmaster in Laser terms for some years now... However I hear that at 71 he's decided that he's no longer really competitive enough so is going to concentrate on his IC...

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So what happened with Chris Maas?

 

Soooo Slooow! A crippling lack of skill coupled with poor foil section choices.

 

Oh well, the water's warm, the scenery's beautiful, and the sailors are super helpful to an old man newbie. What better place to learn to Moth?

Beautiful Plumage!

SHC

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Any hint on who's using what, as far as gear is concerned?

Just to keep us interested on the other end of the planet :D

 

For example, looking at pictures:

- Bora is with Mach 2 platform, mach2mast, CST boom, North H13, lister/damic mainfoil (correct?), rudder foil (???) + some custom stuff;

- Nathan with mach2 package + Msl16 + various mach2foils

- Brit top guys Rashley/Greenhalgh/Paton with exocet platform, and a lot of different sail/mast combinations

 

 

In particular, what's the talk about latest foil developments? hi aspect-ratio stuff from the brits? what's the performance of the Lister-Damic mainfoils? new stuff from Amac?

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And I'll throw this out, there is nothing in the sailing world that can provide as complete a thrashing as a foiling moth, not my IC, not my AC, NOTHING! My hat's off to Mr world champ, see you in san fran!

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Curious re: foil sections; too much camber, or not enough? And if too much, maybe cut some area off?

 

Too much camber according to Dave Lister, who's opinion I trust. And yet I'm not taking off fast in marginal conditions so I'm not inclined to cut the tips off just yet. Man, there is little more painful than being run over by forty foiling Moths at the start line. I feel like a tortoise on the freeway.

Sorry to hear about the teething troubles; I'm sure you will get it sorted. Would love to know more about your setup.

 

In general I think Dave's observation makes sense; why use lots of camber if you have a flap? The flap gives you the camber when you need it.

 

Where are you at on foil area and span, compared to others?

 

Finishing this at the moment; just gluing gudgeons on.

 

post-40347-0-28446300-1382115020_thumb.jpg

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Nice day off yesterday, but surf on north shore was almost flat. Friday forecast not promising.

Chris Maas boat is a masterpiece, but he is no backyard builder. It's does everything right but just lacks top speed. Chris is really still learning to sail it, but getting better all the time. Pretty dam good for someone starting with a clean slate. He will be a lot faster with some new foils with what he has learnt this week. He certainly has shown us a different way to distribute loads.

Of demographics, there are two of us over 60, several over 50 , including AMAC who is in a league of his own. 70 year old Furura San from Japan is here to get ideas for the new boat he is building for himself, he is not as old as Colin but may well have been sailing moths for a lot longer. There are 5 women sailing.

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We'll try to get into it today, assuming no breeze. looking pretty glassed off for sure right now....we'll see.

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Curious re: foil sections; too much camber, or not enough? And if too much, maybe cut some area off?

 

Too much camber according to Dave Lister, who's opinion I trust. And yet I'm not taking off fast in marginal conditions so I'm not inclined to cut the tips off just yet. Man, there is little more painful than being run over by forty foiling Moths at the start line. I feel like a tortoise on the freeway.

Sorry to hear about the teething troubles; I'm sure you will get it sorted. Would love to know more about your setup.

 

In general I think Dave's observation makes sense; why use lots of camber if you have a flap? The flap gives you the camber when you need it.

 

Where are you at on foil area and span, compared to others?

 

Finishing this at the moment; just gluing gudgeons on.

 

attachicon.gifrudder anhedral.jpg

need a bulb

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Curious re: foil sections; too much camber, or not enough? And if too much, maybe cut some area off?

 

Too much camber according to Dave Lister, who's opinion I trust. And yet I'm not taking off fast in marginal conditions so I'm not inclined to cut the tips off just yet. Man, there is little more painful than being run over by forty foiling Moths at the start line. I feel like a tortoise on the freeway.

Sorry to hear about the teething troubles; I'm sure you will get it sorted. Would love to know more about your setup.

 

In general I think Dave's observation makes sense; why use lots of camber if you have a flap? The flap gives you the camber when you need it.

 

Where are you at on foil area and span, compared to others?

 

Finishing this at the moment; just gluing gudgeons on.

 

attachicon.gifrudder anhedral.jpg

need a bulb

Dragwise I think bulbs are slow; tank seems to agree. Structurally who knows but I will find out soon enough. I know Bieker and Amac supposedly had this discussion at 2009 Worlds; I don't recall seeing any bulbs on the Oracle or ETNZ rudders. Of course they probably used invar or whatever unobtainium for the joint.

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Whats the crack then? Is there a feeling that a bulb is lower drag than just a straightforward "t" junction?

I had always thought that te bulb was there to fair in / house mechanisms?

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Whats the crack then? Is there a feeling that a bulb is lower drag than just a straightforward "t" junction?

I had always thought that te bulb was there to fair in / house mechanisms?

 

My gut feeling says the bulb's there 'cause otherwise it breaks. atg's foil is pretty low drag from what I've heard.

But then, you look at the rudders on the AC72's, and they have that silly bulb at the T ...

Hey Bora, can you expand your 2 words post? We're pretty sure you've done the home work properly and we'd like to know more ...

Pretty please ...

Glad to see you back posting.

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I've always hated my parents for not letting me go to UoH

 

+1!!!!!

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Whats the crack then? Is there a feeling that a bulb is lower drag than just a straightforward "t" junction?

I had always thought that te bulb was there to fair in / house mechanisms?

In clean's interview with Jimmy he was saying bieker played with foil intercept geometry right through the cup

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IIRC, on Biekers site he stated that adding the bulb fairing to the rudder helped tremendously

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The bulb at the join is all about hydrodynamics and is all about tidying up the flow around the joint. I think the first person to design them into a Moth foil was Amac with the Bladerider, but I was first told about the concept by Adam May in the mid 1990's after I had fitted a T foil to my N12, based on his aeronautics degree knowledge. I think it must be a pretty old concept, being put to modern uses.

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Oh yeah?

My understanding was that in previous cups beiker was a structures lead for oracle. Mind you he is a nav arch and a versatile one at that so guess that a lot of bits require one to have fingers on the pies of a few disciplines.

Junction is obv a structure / hydrodynamic hotspot.

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Fuck so I should have done that on the last tfoil I stuck on my 14 rudder then.

Kinda looks like more bulk/volume hence more drag to my simple eyes.

I guess on 14 tfoils the foil is Half a chord length fwd of the rudder, which may help the junction drag.

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College girls sailing foiling dinghies in their undies?

 

I think I really need to start sailing Moths.

 

Do I really have to go to Facebook to see more? Wishing the content was here... Not even links to more vids and photos?? Or the scoresheet for that matter. :(

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from Paul's blog, where he discusses a couple things he added to the program: http://biekerboats.blogspot.com.au

 

 

 

 

Rudder/hydrofoil intersection cavitation fairings to reduce total rudder drag by approximately 30kgf at higher speeds:
20130920_084036.jpg

20130920_084109.jpg

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Fuck so I should have done that on the last tfoil I stuck on my 14 rudder then.

Kinda looks like more bulk/volume hence more drag to my simple eyes.

I guess on 14 tfoils the foil is Half a chord length fwd of the rudder, which may help the junction drag.

Dan

 

Not really my area, but I think you have something different going on. Your foils aren't T's. because they aren't at the bottom of the rudder, and, as you point out, they don't go full cord. It wouldn't surprise me if there was something you could do, but seeing that Paul Beiker knows about this stuff and hasn't designed it into one of his 14's, makes me think you need to have a chat with a good hydro/aero guy.

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In Hoerners book on drag he cites experiments that show that the bulb reduces interference drag at the junction. However, As good as the book is, it predates CFD, digital test gear and computers by decades, so some of his conclusions need treating with a pinch of salt IMHO. OTOH, some of those old NACA papers are awesome, so I mean no disrespect just because he wrote the book a long time ago.

 

Easy to test out bulbs in CFD these days.

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I think I need to get good at sailing before I worry about adding bulbs. But yes, suspect being a cruciform halfway up affects things.

Saw something on the interweb that bieker was going to do a new i14 rudder following his recent ac experiences. Suspect any difference will be totally lost in the noise! ;-)

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I think I need to get good at sailing before I worry about adding bulbs. But yes, suspect being a cruciform halfway up affects things.

Saw something on the interweb that bieker was going to do a new i14 rudder following his recent ac experiences. Suspect any difference will be totally lost in the noise! ;-)

You might be right, but its surprising how much better you sail when you have boatspeed and the confidence it brings. I suspect that some of these things are a bit more than "lost in the noise" items.

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IIRC, on Biekers site he stated that adding the bulb fairing to the rudder helped tremendously

from my poor recollection of what I read and what he said is that it had to do with cavitation ...

no bulbs on 14 rudders, but we all know 14ers are completely clueless (as well as fat and ugly).

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from Paul's blog, where he discusses a couple things he added to the program: http://biekerboats.blogspot.com.au

 

 

 

 

Rudder/hydrofoil intersection cavitation fairings to reduce total rudder drag by approximately 30kgf at higher speeds:
20130920_084036.jpg

20130920_084109.jpg

Note it is (probably) not a bulb. And it is probably not visible in a frontal view.

 

You don't need a bulb to have a good fairing. Funny this looks like the constant cross sectional area thing they used to do with fighter fuselages.

 

I think Bora is referring to a previous rudder building program where structural issues were encountered.

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1. cavitation is probably not a problem for moths - certainly not for 14s - yes for AC 72s

2. it does indeed look like the supersonic area rule solution for aircraft

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1. cavitation is probably not a problem for moths - certainly not for 14s - yes for AC 72s

2. it does indeed look like the supersonic area rule solution for aircraft

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You guys would probably do well looking at the old fighters!

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IIRC, on Biekers site he stated that adding the bulb fairing to the rudder helped tremendously

from my poor recollection of what I read and what he said is that it had to do with cavitation ...

no bulbs on 14 rudders, but we all know 14ers are completely clueless (as well as fat and ugly).

That from a skinny Frenchie pretty boy!

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The assassins behaved similarly, I would put a point infront of any intersection and I bet Bieker would do the same now

 


from Paul's blog, where he discusses a couple things he added to the program: http://biekerboats.blogspot.com.au


There was a bit of structure but the ventilation was violent when it did happen.


Rudder/hydrofoil intersection cavitation fairings to reduce total rudder drag by approximately 30kgf at higher speeds:



20130920_084036.jpg



20130920_084109.jpg

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I don't know how to operate this thing on my phone

 

My reply is somewhere in the middle of that messed up reply

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I don't know how to operate this thing on my phone

 

My reply is somewhere in the middle of that messed up reply

.

 

...good yer can sail better than text,eh!? :mellow:

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I don't know how to operate this thing on my phone

 

My reply is somewhere in the middle of that messed up reply

Nice scoreline! Sorry to miss the reply.

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IIRC, on Biekers site he stated that adding the bulb fairing to the rudder helped tremendously

from my poor recollection of what I read and what he said is that it had to do with cavitation ...

no bulbs on 14 rudders, but we all know 14ers are completely clueless (as well as fat and ugly).

That from a skinny Frenchie pretty boy!

 

Stick man is my current name. As ugly as you guys but on the other side of the spectrum! Looks like you did well at the last worlds! Good job.

 

Interesting about the bulb, I always though it was a necessary trade off. Draggy, but no way you could build something that will hold wo it. I though staggering the foils was good enough?

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With or without bulbs, today is the last day or racing, a few have a remote chance of catching Bora so it's not over yet, so long as the wind arrives, forecast is 6 kt west from over the mountains, buts its never like that in Hawaii.

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Can't tell you all how bummed we are that the typical fall lull in the trades coincided with the Moth's visit. Looks like Trades are expected back on Thursday, depending on which weather model you trust.

 

So very sorry that Windward Oahu didn't deliver. I live just up the coast in the next little community past Chinaman's Hat and on my commute in to town this week I could clearly SEE Molokai across the Kaiwi channel in the morning - you can only see it in very calm conditions (no sea spray), - such that we might get to see it from Kam Highway a half-dozen times a year. This is the most persistant calm spell that I can remember.

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.

 

...I sure hope the event doesn't end without a couple more races,,,I'm sure even Bora would prefer to win this on the water!

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Britannia Rules Light-Air Waves On Day 5

America’s Gulari Maintains Lead Over Australia’s Outteridge As English Push For Podium

 

Kaneohe Bay, HI (19 October 2013) – A surprisingly stable 6-10 knot Northerly breeze allowed for more ‘flight time’ on Friday than anyone expected, as 80 competitors from 15 nations took to the waters of Kaneohe Bay, HI for the penultimate day of the 2013 McDougall + McConaghy International Moth World Championship. Three quick races saw American Bora Gulari’s lead over second place Nathan Outerridge grow to 8 points, while Scott Babbage’s third-place position is under assault from attacking English.

 

Southampton, UK’s Robert Greenhalgh sailed away from the fleet in races 8 and 9 on Friday, winning one race by more than 200 meters and the other by half that, winning the day and moving up to fifth place with just one day’s racing remaining. Fellow UK Mothist Ben Paton had one of his strongest days of the regatta, moving into fourth, just one point ahead of Greenhalgh. Chris Rashley sits tied on points for 6th place with Tasmania’s Rob Gough, marking the 3rd Englishman in the top ten. He could have easily been on the podium though; Rashley had big leads in at least two races later abandoned. “The [English] boats are going really well out there, but it would be nice if I could have a bit better luck,” said Rashley. Greenhalgh was relaxed despite the tight battle for the podium that lay ahead for him. “Above all else we’re here in Hawaii to have some fun, and today was great fun,” he said.

 

American Clamps Down On Olympic, Cup Star

 

Detroit foiling phenom Bora Gulari extended his lead over Australia’s Nathan Outteridge to 8 points with all discards counted, as the American took advantage of Outteridge’s foil selection mistake. “Everything was looking really light in all the forecasts we looked at, and the big main foil I put on was looking good after Race 8,” said Outteridge. The 27-year old racer would take second in the first, light air race of the day, and far enough ahead of Gulari to close the Championship battle to just one point. After one abandoned race and a 20-minute postponement, the wind increased to around 9 knots, and Outerridge’s fate was sealed. “I took a risk and it was the wrong call,” he said. “Those are the tradeoffs and choosing the day’s equipment can be the most stressful part of the morning.” Outteridge added that he hoped to get in enough racing on Saturday to have a shot at beating Gulari and taking his second Moth world title.

 

Kaneohe Yacht Club Race Officer Tom Pochereva intends to hold four races to finish up the 2013 World Championship; racing begins at 12:00 Hawaii time and no race can be started after 4:00 PM.

 

Fans can follow along with video and photo updates as they happen on the Moth Worlds Facebook Page.

 

Overall Results After 10 Races (Top 10) – Full Result

 

1. USA 6, Bora Gulari, [18]-1-2-1-3-3-[7]-5-3-3- ; 21

2. AUS 3997, Nathan Outteridge, 1-2-1-[10]-9-1-8-2-[13]-5- ; 29

3. AUS 2, Scott Babbage, 4-4-[27]-[24]-1-12-1-4-5-13- ; 44

4. GBR 3982, Ben Paton, [15]-3-3-15-[23]-6-3-6-2-7- ; 45

5. GBR 4047, Robert Greenhalgh, 2-7-7-9-[19]-[13]-11-1-1-8- ; 46

6. AUS 3, Rob Gough, [17]-8-13-8-8-2-4-[38]-6-1- ; 50T

7. GBR 7, Chris Rashley, 3-[35]-6-11-7-4-13-[36]-4-2- ; 50T

8. AUS 8, Julian Salter, [12]-9-8-5-2-[29]-5-3-12-11- ; 55

9. USA 3931, Brad Funk, [24/ZFP]-5-4-3-5-5-18-10-21-[23]- ; 71

10. NZL 3991, Peter Burling, [40]-28-[52]-2-10-7-6-9-11-4- ; 77

 

Images are free for editorial use to a maximum half-page size with mandatory credit to read ThMartinez/Sea&Co/International Moth Worlds. No modification or cropping (other than resizing) is permitted.

 

Clean Racing Tip Of The Day

 

As one of the world's elite racing classes, the International Moth Class believes it essential to emphasize the responsible use of energy and resources in the context of sailing. Working with 11th Hour Racing, a program of the Schmidt Family Foundation, the Moth Class has come up with a number of initiatives to help all sailing events improve the energy profile and performance of racing boats and increase the personal investment of sailors in the health of our waters. Each day, the Moth Worlds fleet will highlight a 'Clean Racing Tip' they've implemented; something that will work for regattas and racing classes around the world. Here’s today’s tip:

 

LEAD BY EXAMPLE: Make sure the best sailors in the fleet — the people who everyone else looks to for tuning and strategy advice — are on board with the green program. This shows the fleet that the green message is for real, and that the values of environmental conservation are truly the values of the sport.

 

For photos, interview requests, or additional information about the Moth Worlds, please contact us at usmothclass@gmail.com.

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...awwwright!!...glad to see there was some final action,,,,,and congrats to Bora!

 

...I must say,,I'm glad I'm not in a class where final results require selecting the 'right' ~$2000 foil from the quiver!!! :mellow:

 

...it looks like mr Maas,,team green-machine found something in the bag too!!

 

 

....results..... http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_regatta_results.php?regatta_id=6952

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