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New Dinghy from Michael Storer

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Hmm, an 'interesting' shape I fear.

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Toe straps will not be needed, as it will be impossible to hike over those sharp corners, and the wings will fail at the sheer line.

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Looks like a Phil Bolger version of a lowrider Moth... except that he'd have figured out a way to put rounded or at least angled hiking wings. The human body generally does not like flat/square

 

FB- Doug

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Looks a bit like Frasers Shaw!

....hmmmm,,,there sure seems to be a resemblance ,,an ironic development of the 'new class' thread,,,,,except that closed stern,,no double bottom,, takes sailing back ~50 years

 

,,and with the 75sq ft sail,,,I guess the wings are for sitting -on- most of the time rather than hiking-out--I guess that makes it easier to bail!

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Looks very similar in concept to the Rodent dinghy I designed and give away the plans free on duckworths except its bigger

 

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Looks dumb to me. Look with tortured ply you can build a boat like the Swift Solo - it just will have a bit less durability.

 

You could even build a Musto Skiff, albeit weighing slightly more, but also faster than a Contender. Frankly there is zero reason that with ply you cannot build the kind of double hull dish shapes that modern skiffs are. Its just they will weigh abit more, and the interior dish will be a bit more tubular and might need a crossbar strut at the mast or at the front of the rack tubes.

 

This is just a dumb design

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We'll have to see how it goes I guess.

Agree about the corners. It's wood so that's easy to fix.

Idea is for something simple to build and not too powerful, modest sail. Nothing about moths at all in this one. Something like the NS14 philosophy but without the exotics. There is a group of people who sail NS14s singlehanded (body hiked) with mainsail only. Great boat to sail, but 140lbs of hull is too much for one person. So we'll see if it appeals to a similar mindset.

 

Cost so far is shy of $3000 including sail, fittings (outhaul/vang/downhaul to sidedeck, epoxy, gaboon ply. It will be more in other areas (this one is being built in Canada where timber is cheap). How does that compare with getting a Swift Solo on the water? :) Different market - different solution.

Oh ... swift solo hull 77kg (nothing wrong with that given the loadings). This one 50 plus a few pounds of fittings. Simpler, lighter, maybe easier to sail, proper foils, worked out mast sail combo (a little down the line as is standard with my plans). Which one do you want to carry down to the water? Which one will rig easier? Solo is faster, expensive, heavier, longer to rig. These are all things that are important to some people who might build their own boats.

So a cycle of reducing rather than adding ends up with a different result.

Self draining bottoms add a lot of weight and lots of labour - I've been through that with other designs and it was the biggest dissatisfaction area for builders. One said "it's like building two boats - have to build the hull and build the cockpit. So ... if it saves a big lump of building time - 20 to 30 percent ... it might be admissible. If you don't have the basic shape of this together in a couple of weekends ... you are not really trying :) No jigs/strongbacks ... the cockpit bulkheads and side tank faces makes the jig. Plywood, jigsaw, a wood plane, cordless drill, highly detailed plan.

Most design these days is a cycle of adding stuff. What happens if you reduce at each cycle of the design process?

Some talking about outmoded hullshape ... it is a simplification, but there are quite a few Cherubs in the UK that are very square indeed starting in the early 2000s ... maybe that's something that some can relate to. It's not the same speed regime by any means, but square doesn't necessarily mean uncompetitive in one type of boat. Do you actually know it won't work here? I've some experience that shows it does work.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=143815&page=1

 

and from one of my customers in the UK http://tinyurl.com/mo3se49

And some videos of the bigger flat bottomed boat. Note the weights it is carrying in some of the clips - five day trip carrying camping gear, food and water in Texas.
http://tinyurl.com/m9z2q9z

 

 

 

Best wishes

MIK

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Hmm the shap looks.... "interesting"

 

Don't like the fact the stern is closed, will take ages to drain out the water that will collect when you cpasize it.

 

 

Don't get why it's there to be honest.

 

Also, wings out of ply don't quite sit right with me, don't know why. Maybe they're just waiting to fail?

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Good stuff Mik, I rather like the idea. I have thought for a while that a simple flat bottom skiff built along the lines of a I550 could perform well relative to the cost and be built in no time flat. If it were mine I'd still take the time to have a false floor but I just dont like bailing.

 

If it gets someone to have a go at building and sailing their own boat then its worth the effort. Make sure you post some sailing pics and video footage here when its on the water.

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...........Self draining bottoms add a lot of weight ............

Best wishes

MIK

 

..

 

......not if you consider the water they displace :mellow:

 

....nice long post ,,but your rationale is a bit thin,,,,,,,,,bail-on!! ;)

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Good stuff Mik, I rather like the idea. I have thought for a while that a simple flat bottom skiff built along the lines of a I550 could perform well relative to the cost and be built in no time flat. If it were mine I'd still take the time to have a false floor but I just dont like bailing.

 

If it gets someone to have a go at building and sailing their own boat then its worth the effort. Make sure you post some sailing pics and video footage here when its on the water.

.

 

....as an i550 owner/sailor ,,I have to say you're right about the similarities--but also that short boats with flat panels are a rather large performance trade-off.........thank god we've got a solid OD fleet in my area.!

 

...and yes,similar to your 2nd point,,,the simplicity can be popular

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... ...

 

 

lSelf draining bottoms add a lot of weight and lots of labour - I've been through that with other designs and it was the biggest dissatisfaction area for builders. One said "it's like building two boats..."

 

 

True

But it makes the boat MUCH much nicer to sail and to handle in almost all conditions.

I'd be willing to bet that rather few of your customers have experience with a good self-bailing boat and so don't have any idea what they're missing. But I bet they do come to recognize that bailing ... and for that matter cleaning... is a PITA over the lifetime of the boat.

 

In a small boat like this, the added weight need not be much and it should be possible to do something along the lines of putting in the cockpit floor before the hull bottom. That would allow easy fitting to the sides and much easier framing / bracing.

 

FB- Doug

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Ok lets go through the points one by one

1/ Hullshape?
2/ Wing failure?
3/ Self Draining?

Each of these is a conscious decision.

In general - I'm really happy the boat seems unfamiliar and difficult to understand to some here - because it means I'm in a different place in the market - which is very good. You just have to look at this swift solo page to show how the market is divided - and you all know that's not the end of boats in that narrow marketspace. Because they all compete it means that there is slim pickings for all of them. Swift Solo designed in 2000 - how many boats are there? I'm not picking on the Swift - it's a great boat, but I'm making a marketing point.

Typically I have much better sales that this from my business - which has been around for 20 years now. I don't do any outside work. I'm happy to design boats, write plans and market market market.

As an example the list of people who race the boat below in Australia read like a who's who of skiff, Australian Sharpie, FD and 505 sailing. Ok ... they are all over the hill (including me when I raced one). People tired of the rat race of digging up crew and the arms race of updating a 15K boat that devalues to 6 or 8K after three years.

You can build one (or one of mine for 3000-3500 as a durable raceboat.

9647972455_bc56ffb925_z.jpg

Mine is a waaay faster build, lighter, sharper. The number of assy trap singlehanders ever built at home wouldn't be close to what turns up for the sabre nationals - I think the Swift has 80 sail numbers over 13 years - builds? (I'll accept minor corrections). And yes ... the sabre has to bail too (more on that below)

So a recap of the market space for this boat.
Light Hull 50kg
Small sail area - NS14 - making the best of a small sail
Short mast (thankyou square top sail) - for some reason mast length is something home boat builders worry about a lot.
Body hiked
Narrowish waterline compared to other self build body hiked dinghies without cutting out the average sailor
Low cost (so far 3K including sail and fittings) for starting sailors transitioning or experienced sailors who don't want to be in the arms race.

Where you place yourself is a marketing decision. If you want to sell 10 plans in two years ... go for the assy and trap design process. How many of you have the Swift Solo plans? There you go then - no money down - why are you arguing for that type of boat?

1/ Hullshape
Apart from my own work on making flat bottomed boats sail nicely, selling plans and introducing people to sailing at a cost they can afford there are antecedents to the i550 that have been more instructive to me.

I was pretty annoyed the day the i550 came out - I/ve been working on fast building (way faster building than the i550) designs for a long time and had something very much like that on my hard disk. But they were first into that marketspace and the boat is well known - well done. But there's little point in following someone else into a marketspace. That's why this new boat has such modest sail area, light weight, short mast (so many complaints about mast length from people who build wooden boats - so you respond to that). And the market for asymmetrical carrying performance dinghies is so packed.

Going back to the hullshape - you can look at some of the lowrider moths which had a very simplified box shape - but perhaps more useful is the Bloodaxe Paterson line of UK Cherub.

Here is the Paterson 7 UK Cherub from 1999

ldwg-p7.gif

I'll get into the wings in a moment. The bottom is not quite flat here, but the water isn't going to notice much difference, particularly up forward where the width of the bottom is so small that the arc will have minimal depth becoming more and more like a flat bottom the further forward you go. Think of how these boats sail, On their midbody and aft end when planing fast or in light conditions upwind with crew crammed forward and a deeply immersed forefoot. Something familiar to every lowrider moth or NS14 sailor - or someone sailing one of my Goat Island Skiffs or BETH canoes.

If such a shape can work well for one type of boat's speed regime through the entire wind range, can you be so sure it won't work in others?

The Paterson is not my reason for designing this ... it is the excuse. I've been working of fast build flat bottomed boats as a commercial enterprise for a couple of decades now and wanted to do something like a conventional dinghy - and the Paterson says to me ... "try it ... there's a reasonable chance it might work".

The changes from the paterson are to give the boat more forgiving behaviour if there's a lull the new boat has a much higher reserve of RM heeling to windward. I would have like to slim down the topsides further for waves, but RM for windward heel was ruling me there.

You can talk backwards and forwards - but I've done the legwork and my friend Rick is building it - he's built four prototypes for me over the years. The deal is I buy the sail and the fittings he buys the wood and glue. And it is a prototype - we'll keep fooling with it until it behaves itself or shows it's a dud - but there's so much precedent in my own work and the work of others I think it will be right.

Wing Failure
Ok ... process here is to deal with conceptual problems by finding examples of things that people are more familiar with.

Wings were very much there well before composite boats.

In particular I'm thinking of the last generation of 18ft skiffs built in plywood - I'm talking structure here - not hull design. Three big blokes and wings bigger than these pi$$y ones. I'm thinking boat boats built by John McConaghy (yes, that McConaghy - not only one of the first into composites but one of the very finest builders in wood). I can't find a single photo on the net of boats by the Kulmar brothers or JM. How easily the history is lost. So not surprising it feels strange to newer sailors.

So there are two factors - the wing not breaking at the hull juncture (example is the 18s) and the wing itself not breaking ... heres a longer and narrower hiking apparatus of plywood. Deflection goes with the square of the length. The wings on my boat start looking somewhat conservative :)

ic.jpg

Yep ... before everything was composite - it was all done in wood - to much the same and often better weight if you keep the cost/durability within reason.

Self Draining
The first NS14 built for me in '79 was built by Ian Bashford. It was a mould flopped off the Holme's brother's Red Rog. I did mine as a non self drainer and a second shell was finished off by Gavin Jones as a Self drainer.

And of course I've owned scow moths, sailed Skates and VJs a few times and Lasers. So why not self draining?

First ... lets get bailing after capsize straight. How much water does a side tanked boat like a 505, 420, Taser come up holding?

So dismissing that ... how about water that you take on while sailing? Two reasons ... heel speed and waves. (I'm bad at counting)

Heel is similar to capsize ... if you have side tanks you are unlikely to ship much water with a close call. These flat bottomed boats are very dry sailors ... a rounded or veed hull means that theres always some forward hull surface pointing at your face - real experience over many years shows not so when the bottom is squarish - totally different spray pattern. And speed - well, this isn't meant to be a Swift Solo or 49er - think of how a cherub or 49er is sailed in sub planing conditions - that's the permanent upwind mode for this boat - though in smoothish water low and fast might work. Note the Sabre dinghy at the top of the post - similar criticisms about non self bailing - big popularity (including lots of (older) dudes (like me) with serious background (less like me)) blunt entry, slower in waves and kicks water everywhere.

Obviously there is a large part of the market to which this is acceptable.

But this is just minimising the problem - saying it is not too bad in practical sailing. We need much more than that to make the decision to eliminate something that can make sailing more pleasant. I agree totally with the advantages of the raised floor.

But ...

a/ Raised floors are only nice if someone else can build them for you.

First you have to realise just how quickly boats like this can be built. My target is for a very experienced builder to do a hull in close to couple of weekends or a new builder in a couple of months. This goes back to marketability.

Build the boat without a false floor...
Precoat plywood with epoxy.
sleep
Sand Plywood and cut panels (9 pieces), put cleats (bits of wood for attaching other pieces of ply) where the deck is going to go and a small number of cleats for right angle joins within the structure.
sleep
Assemble cockpit sides, bulkheads and webs - spend rest of day getting on with the other bits - foredeck beam, chainplate webs, stem, mast support/partner (depending on deck stepped or free standing rig.
sleep
wrap side panels around the cockpit structure, bottom, tape up temporarily and fillet everything inside.
sleep
Fair down deck substructure and put deck on - flip boat glass tape and epoxy coat in one operation.
Sleep
Fair down deck ply - glue underside on wings.
Then it's sparring, foils etc. Every fitting is dimensioned and located in the plan.

(processes mean you have to stop after and wait for glue/fillets/tape to cure)
So lets look at the extra steps if there is a self drainer. This has to slot in
minimum of 5 extra pieces with lots of cutouts, stringers,
new process - Locate and fillet bulkheads in place ... not so easy to hold or clamp without troublesome cable ties or copper wire)
new process - stringers
new process - possible glassing the underside if using 4mm ply.
new process Fit/trim cockpit floor - every one will be a little different - ply thickness, slight errors with alignment of previous structure (slight misalignments are no prob with this type of boneless structure - unless you do things like self draining floors)

So if you understand just how quick a boat like this goes together you'll find a false floor almost doubles the time and processes for the building of the hull. I've done a couple of self draining designs, and everyone who had built a non self drainer previously complained bitterly about the amount of work and finishing under the floor. It really makes for the labour of two boats.

321606071_fec1ffd427_z.jpghttp://www.storerboatplans.com/Orangeboat/Orangeboat.html

So that's the real reason. Self drainers are only nice to build if someone else builds them for you (or has a mould which someone else has taken hours and hours to make).

b/ Patterns of use for self build boats
The market for plans for self built boats is quite large as is their presence in club racing (when's the last time a Sabre or Windmill was featured on SA ... happens sometimes ... but tread the mainstream with traps and assy and the performance edge and there are countless discussions.

It's great ... and I pick up a lot and complain about how expensive boats are getting and how they put off starting and intermediate sailors. Or experienced ones wanting to drop out the arms race.

What happens here is highly skewed compared to what the bulk of real sailors actually do and skewed from the boats that really make up the bulk of the marketplace.

People still have little worry with their non self drainging Taser's, 505s Sabres, 420s, 470s and it's a non question. The bulk of the people who are into wooden boats haven't even heard of self draining floors for dayboats and dinghies - because they like to keep things simple.

People really do like boats that go together quickly

People like short masts

People like every 5kg you can pull out of the boat for portability and storage. A laser is a PITA - what if it was 13kg lighter - fits within people's needs better.

But I do like self drainers and I'm trying to come up with a way that these really simple and fast building methods can accomodate them without excessive labour and they might appear in a future iteration of something else.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

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michael,,,wouldn't it all go better with a couple more feet of WL??

 

if the boat's being developed here in vancouver,,I'd be happy to take it for a sail,,,give some feedback..

............or put a well-sailed laser on the water as a benchmark

 

....my ~46years of dinghy sailing might finally be put to good use!....let me know ;)

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First off Mik - you need to take a look at the issues that the Swift faced:

1) its original designer and promoter ran into some serious health issues just as the fleet was starting to grow and had to hand it off

2) the handoff was less than 100% cleanly done

3) it took place right at the start of the crash

4) a Swift as a homebuild is about twice yours before rig costs But it is substantially more if someone else builds it

5) a swift is a much more durable boat (it was designed as such - and some say overdesigned)

 

At the time of Bram's health issues he was seriously looking at stressed/tortured ply construction of the hull and deck, and the hard part he was having was getting a fine enough entry that flared appropriately into the aft shape. That said I think a knockoff of a Musto in Ply would have an easier time though it might require some fancy pre-cut joiner work (ala Bieker's Pt Townsend ply runabout kit) about 1/3 of the way back from the bow

 

Now one of the really clever things that Bram did with the Swift is to come up with a reliable and fairly easy way of getting a "dish deck" to fit into/onto the hull and stringers while minimizing sloppy bog use (dunno if you've seen it)

 

And while this would in fact make the build a bit more complicated, the dramatically nicer boat is more than worth it. The big advantage of a "double hulled" boat frankly is that you can walk around on it, which makes trap to trap tacking and gybing in a breeze so much more pleasant. It would also give your wings a lot more structure in that they would be cantilevered into the stringers that form the hull.

 

 

Now as to club racing of self-built boats. HUH??
Windmills turn out 20 boats for the nationals and regattas outside the SE USA turn out 1-3 boats1!! http://windmillclass.com/schedule/
The Sabre only exists in Australia and that's a very different market than North Am.

 

The real issue (and one that the Swift Solo ran into like a brick wall) is that in today's economy, If I'm a sailor - I want to be able to sail. I don't want to spend 2 years of vacation time building a boat that I'm going to have 1 or 2 other boats to compete against.

 

This is where I think Couch has it right. build the base in units of fleets rather than boats. North Am has a very very low level of Portsmouth racing. And if I'm going to spend $3k on a boat, I'll buy a painbox (laser) and race that. If I'm gonna spend $10k-$15k on a boat, I'm gonna buy a boat that is fast and fun.

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There is a *lot* more to the P7 than its superficially flat appearance. There were other superficially similar flat bottom Cherubs designed at the time and they were failures. There was also a step change when the rules changed to allow narrower boats, again slightly wider flat bottom boats failed. Andy managed some *very* clever stuff with that boat, and its hard to work out why it worked and everyone elses didn't. But my best guess is that narrow waterline beam and slab sides seem to have been an awful lot of it.

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BTW, having just sailed a "tank sided" 420 in a nice breeze (12-14) and some chop, you are going to get water in the boat. And unless you have a self-draining cockpit the prismatic combined with optimal trim quickly makes it permanent.

 

And blow a roll tack near the top end of the roll tack windspeed and your 5oh is quickly carrying 20kg more than it ought to. Now add in how much extra hull weight you are carrying fwd to prevent the odd wave from washing/spraying the length of the boat and its not nearly as quick a win as it seems.

 

Yes there is a reduction in build time. Which means this boat is optimized for builders and not sailors. That's fine - that's a class of folks that needs to be serviced as well. If someone asked me to I'd take it for a spin (after all I'm a boat whore) but I think $3k is too much to spend on a shape like that.

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BTW, having just sailed a "tank sided" 420 in a nice breeze (12-14) and some chop, you are going to get water in the boat. And unless you have a self-draining cockpit the prismatic combined with optimal trim quickly makes it permanent.

 

And blow a roll tack near the top end of the roll tack windspeed and your 5oh is quickly carrying 20kg more than it ought to. Now add in how much extra hull weight you are carrying fwd to prevent the odd wave from washing/spraying the length of the boat and its not nearly as quick a win as it seems.

 

Yes there is a reduction in build time. Which means this boat is optimized for builders and not sailors. That's fine - that's a class of folks that needs to be serviced as well. If someone asked me to I'd take it for a spin (after all I'm a boat whore) but I think $3k is too much to spend on a shape like that.

 

Yeah the 420 tends to scoop in a couple bucketsful on the roll, especially in a chop... one reason why several generations of college kids dislike the boat.

 

OTOH there is a whole generation of Int'l FJs, for that matter 505s too, with at least partial double floors (ie self-bailing) and the main reason the newer boats tend to be tank sided single bottom is to be cheap. The Vanguard 15 is an example of a boat that is an attempt to be both less expensive and self-bailing, it is a pretty good class but the boats are acknowledged to be short-lived.

 

So maybe sailors have voted and to not be self-bailing is The Peoples Choice.

 

FB- Doug

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Well I agree that tank-sided single bottom is the cheap solution - cuz with just 4 molds you can grind out a production run and leave the parts sitting and assemble them quickly on demand. (yeah I know some 5ohs are double bottomed )

 

But it also means

 

1) they have shorter racing lives - which is good for the MFG bad for the buyers - as the stiffness goes as soon as the stiiffness in the tanks is shot from all the butt bumps

2) you have heavier boats (a double deck lets you have a stronger/stiffer hull with less material)

3) you have less well sailing boats.

 

I'm not convinced that The People's Choice is what you describe though. Cuz a lot of newer designs are not that - including the OpenBic, RS series, Mustos 29ers etc.

 

What I think is that folks are buying boats that fit with the fleets they already have.

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Looks like a flat bottomed "stockhom sprite" moth-

My father and I built one back in early 70's out of 1/8 aircraft ply, stitched together with monofilament line and glass tape.

IT was a "groover" and a light wind flyer.

My wings were much wider and had a "Anderson aero sail" fully battened rig.

A bendy four inch wide tapered mast.

You would put it in the water and it would capsize by itself.

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............This is where I think Couch has it right. build the base in units of fleets rather than boats. North Am has a very very low level of Portsmouth racing. And if I'm going to spend $3k on a boat, I'll buy a painbox (laser) and race that.................

..thanks on that Baltic,,I know a few others beyond myself are having a lot of fun,,right off! :)

 

...methinks michael's surely on the mark in saying that -typical- production high perf dinghies are out of this world price-wise!

....development costs,,,,labor and infrastructure,,,,insane material costs,,,,,and the need to recoup investment in a relatively short run all seem to create a space for the right design to have a decent chance at an end-run to these issues,,,,especially in places where a few guys gather their tools and bang-out a fleet....

 

......the question to me is whether this design is fully filling that slot---it would be sad to be very close,,yet mis-fire on a few details!!!....enough have mentioned the issue of double bottoms to make that point....personally,I was racing finns when they transitioned(did my first terrible glass-job trying to make a sealed-floor,,learned a LOT,,then did it right).......methinks this question really defines what type of sailor/craftsman will be attracted to the boat!!!

.........I think the design can get away with the flat panels as a trade-off to build simplicity,,especially if they go straight to one-design pockets as i550's have done in the NW ,,but wonder if the shortish length might be going too far that way for little reason?,,,,,not to mention the potential cluster-farks those wings could develop if a fleet were ever to gather at a start or tight mark rounding :mellow:

 

....and perhaps going towards a simple,unstayed rig like laser's(same sail area) would be worth a thought,,especially since tubing would create a time/effort end-run around building a wood mast,,,,,,not to mention the easy availability of old laser rigs and sails!!!.....but perhaps this is complete -blasphemy- considering the wooden boat show where this debuted!!!...............I guess it all depends on which sector of craftsman/sailor this design is for.

 

 

..........just some waking thoughts...in the spirit of 'new class development' :rolleyes:

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Well the wings don't worry me in the roundings -- it just looks slow upwind (as you said Waterline - and I suspect that's one reason we haven't heard that much more from the Shaw Skiff - that its a PITA to sail fast upwind. OK Pain in the gut and thighs.

 

Look the world really does not need another relatively slow, upwind hiking boat with moderate RM... That's locked up by Lasers.

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This has nothing at all to do with MIC's efforts here, because I look for interesting things for this boat once it finds its sea legs, as it were... BUT, really Doug...

Perhaps you could share with us your recent experience building boats of this type and successfully marketing them? Not some clapped-out toilet bowl with the imagination of a plumber's crack written large all over the four decade old project that never went anywhere. Tell us how you've designed a minimalist machine with no lifting foils, built a prototype, sailed it successfully and demonstrated an in-place track record of the type that would give us all a lasting impression as to your credibility in the field.

NO.... I didn't think so.

Pure foaming at the mouth putzery, Lord. For fuck's sake... it's taken you going on three freakin' years to build a god damn MODEL BOAT that still isn't in the water, much less something that could be sailed with a human on board.

.

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This has nothing at all to do with MIC's efforts here, because I look for interesting things for this boat once it finds its sea legs, as it were... BUT, really Doug...

 

Perhaps you could share with us your recent experience building boats of this type and successfully marketing them? Not some clapped-out toilet bowl with the imagination of a plumber's crack written large all over the four decade old project that never went anywhere. Tell us how you've designed a minimalist machine with no lifting foils, built a prototype, sailed it successfully and demonstrated an in-place track record of the type that would give us all a lasting impression as to your credibility in the field.

 

NO.... I didn't think so.

 

Pure foaming at the mouth putzery, Lord. For fuck's sake... it's taken you going on three freakin' years to build a god damn MODEL BOAT that still isn't in the water, much less something that could be sailed with a human on board.

 

.

...what on earth are you blithering about??

 

 

....maybe yer forgot the turrets meds???....

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What never fails to amuse me is that Chris seems to have a hard on for Doug. 3 out of his last 4 posts all concern Doug and I am sure the percentage remains fairly high across all his previous posts.....

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Fairly frequently the issue of 'saving sailing' pops up on SA. Fact is sailing needs saving in the US, not overseas. What's the difference? In the US it's all about getting out on the water as quickly, easily and 'safely' as possible. Once there, then what? well, *newsflash*, sailing is FUCKING BORING. Why? Because in the US it's quick, easy and 'safe'. Then what, go race around some cans, with the big spenders having an incremental advantage.

 

So, build a fucking boat to really appreciate what it takes to get on the water, even if it takes you 2 years it will make the whole experience that more meaningful. It's not about getting there, it's about the journey.

 

Go Michael!

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In many US states a sailboat under 12' in length doesn't need to be registered. A slightly under 12' length also makes efficient use of 8' sheets of plywood. If Mik was designing the raciest boat he could come up with it'd look much different from this little dinghy, but he's trying for a different market.

 

I believe Rick is going to have the prototype at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival. I look forward to seeing it in the flesh.

 

michael,,,wouldn't it all go better with a couple more feet of WL??

 

...

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Pasta - the builder tradition in the USA is in either the Moths or in folks who subscribe to Make magazine http://makezine.com/2013/09/01/ten-tweeted-progress-pix-from-weekend-makers/ Building plywood boats was cool in teh 50s. And sure there will always be a market for onesy twosey efforts on this, but unless your boat is filling a niche that there is no commercial builder for (Foiler Moths ) people don't build their own boats anymore. I remmember fondly the project book The Boy Mechanic http://www.amazon.com/Boy-Mechanic-Projects-Mechanics-Childrens/dp/0486452271/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378194207&sr=1-2&keywords=the+boy+mechanic but the projects in it don't compare to what MAKE magazine offers: the sexiness and promise of profit from a high tech invention

 

One significant factor is that the majority of US population now lives in cities. And unlike Europe where the numbers of city dwellers are higher, fewer have second homes "in the country" where you have space for these sorts of projects.

 

So again, another Laser wannabe. With a Squarehead main.... OOOHH... sorry, most folks are having difficulty keeping a Laser flat upwind. They don't need more power, they need a more easily driven and FASTER boat.

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people don't build their own boats anymore.

You should let the folks at Chesapeake Light Craft know about this.

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Craft hobbyists exist. But even in the RC model airplane realm, more and more planes are bought "pre-built" rather than kit built. And more kit built rather than "plan built".

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people don't build their own boats anymore.

You should let the folks at Chesapeake Light Craft know about this.

 

That's kinda what I thought. The overwhelming majority of their business is kayaks, though. And mostly the kind that are fancier & faster than anything you can buy off-the-shelf, beginners tend to not want to build their own.

 

I suspect it's even more so with sailboats. When you can easily buy a $500 Sunfish for something cheap & fun, why spend a bunch of time and even more money? Especially for something that's not even a recognized consumer product (and let's face it, Americans don't want anything they haven't seen advertised). If you're a beginner sailor, you would not recognize the different sailing qualities of a beater Sunfish and let's say a Goat Island Skiff (which is really a great boat in many ways).

 

If your passion is to build a boat... and there are a number of people like this... then you care a lot less about what it will sail like. The great thing is when somebody like Michael comes up with a boat that is attractive to the I-wanna-build-a-boat guy which is easy & economical enough that he will actually finish it, and which sails well enough to be fun & bring yet another real sailor into the fold. The Bolger/Payson Instant Boats were like this in a previous generation. CLC doesn't seem to have one, and I suspect that's because they haven't been asked for one.

 

The self-bailing thing is one my pet issues. I don't have any patience for a boat is continually slogging buckets of water over my ankles, and can't be washed out conveniently. If all else were equal, I can't think of a single reason why anybody with a lick of sense would choose a non-self-bailing boat over a self-bailing one. Of course, all things are never exactly equal, it's a question of whether the added cost(s) are worth it.

 

FB- Doug

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I agree with you on the self bailing part. wet feet may be fine in the midwest and FL in the summer, but NH in the spring and fall they suck. there's a second often overlooked aspect to a boat that does not run dry - even if it only retains a quart or two: all the strings in the boat remain soaked. In salt water this shortens their lives dramatically - but in colder climates it dramatically reduces how fun it is to sail. The limiting threshold on sailing with my wife in Puget Sound was how long her body core temp could hold out against the water....

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I keep hearing that CLC will cut custom plywood parts to assemble- IC's?

There are a few other NA outfits doing it too.

 

Seems to be one of those future things that doesn't quite catch on, although it seems a bit more accepted in the British Isles- see Kieth Callahans designs, for example. I'll post a linky.

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I keep hearing that CLC will cut custom plywood parts to assemble- IC's?

There are a few other NA outfits doing it too.

 

Seems to be one of those future things that doesn't quite catch on, although it seems a bit more accepted in the British Isles- see Kieth Callahans designs, for example. I'll post a linky.

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Ok lets go through the points one by one

 

1/ Hullshape?

2/ Wing failure?

3/ Self Draining?

 

Each of these is a conscious decision.

 

In general - I'm really happy the boat seems unfamiliar and difficult to understand to some here - because it means I'm in a different place in the market - which is very good. You just have to look at this swift solo page to show how the market is divided - and you all know that's not the end of boats in that narrow marketspace. Because they all compete it means that there is slim pickings for all of them. Swift Solo designed in 2000 - how many boats are there? I'm not picking on the Swift - it's a great boat, but I'm making a marketing point.

 

Typically I have much better sales that this from my business - which has been around for 20 years now. I don't do any outside work. I'm happy to design boats, write plans and market market market.

 

As an example the list of people who race the boat below in Australia read like a who's who of skiff, Australian Sharpie, FD and 505 sailing. Ok ... they are all over the hill (including me when I raced one). People tired of the rat race of digging up crew and the arms race of updating a 15K boat that devalues to 6 or 8K after three years.

 

You can build one (or one of mine for 3000-3500 as a durable raceboat.

 

9647972455_bc56ffb925_z.jpg

 

Mine is a waaay faster build, lighter, sharper. The number of assy trap singlehanders ever built at home wouldn't be close to what turns up for the sabre nationals - I think the Swift has 80 sail numbers over 13 years - builds? (I'll accept minor corrections). And yes ... the sabre has to bail too (more on that below)

 

So a recap of the market space for this boat.

Light Hull 50kg

Small sail area - NS14 - making the best of a small sail

Short mast (thankyou square top sail) - for some reason mast length is something home boat builders worry about a lot.

Body hiked

Narrowish waterline compared to other self build body hiked dinghies without cutting out the average sailor

Low cost (so far 3K including sail and fittings) for starting sailors transitioning or experienced sailors who don't want to be in the arms race.

 

Where you place yourself is a marketing decision. If you want to sell 10 plans in two years ... go for the assy and trap design process. How many of you have the Swift Solo plans? There you go then - no money down - why are you arguing for that type of boat?

 

1/ Hullshape

Apart from my own work on making flat bottomed boats sail nicely, selling plans and introducing people to sailing at a cost they can afford there are antecedents to the i550 that have been more instructive to me.

 

I was pretty annoyed the day the i550 came out - I/ve been working on fast building (way faster building than the i550) designs for a long time and had something very much like that on my hard disk. But they were first into that marketspace and the boat is well known - well done. But there's little point in following someone else into a marketspace. That's why this new boat has such modest sail area, light weight, short mast (so many complaints about mast length from people who build wooden boats - so you respond to that). And the market for asymmetrical carrying performance dinghies is so packed.

 

Going back to the hullshape - you can look at some of the lowrider moths which had a very simplified box shape - but perhaps more useful is the Bloodaxe Paterson line of UK Cherub.

 

Here is the Paterson 7 UK Cherub from 1999

 

ldwg-p7.gif

 

I'll get into the wings in a moment. The bottom is not quite flat here, but the water isn't going to notice much difference, particularly up forward where the width of the bottom is so small that the arc will have minimal depth becoming more and more like a flat bottom the further forward you go. Think of how these boats sail, On their midbody and aft end when planing fast or in light conditions upwind with crew crammed forward and a deeply immersed forefoot. Something familiar to every lowrider moth or NS14 sailor - or someone sailing one of my Goat Island Skiffs or BETH canoes.

 

If such a shape can work well for one type of boat's speed regime through the entire wind range, can you be so sure it won't work in others?

 

The Paterson is not my reason for designing this ... it is the excuse. I've been working of fast build flat bottomed boats as a commercial enterprise for a couple of decades now and wanted to do something like a conventional dinghy - and the Paterson says to me ... "try it ... there's a reasonable chance it might work".

 

The changes from the paterson are to give the boat more forgiving behaviour if there's a lull the new boat has a much higher reserve of RM heeling to windward. I would have like to slim down the topsides further for waves, but RM for windward heel was ruling me there.

 

You can talk backwards and forwards - but I've done the legwork and my friend Rick is building it - he's built four prototypes for me over the years. The deal is I buy the sail and the fittings he buys the wood and glue. And it is a prototype - we'll keep fooling with it until it behaves itself or shows it's a dud - but there's so much precedent in my own work and the work of others I think it will be right.

 

Wing Failure

Ok ... process here is to deal with conceptual problems by finding examples of things that people are more familiar with.

 

Wings were very much there well before composite boats.

 

In particular I'm thinking of the last generation of 18ft skiffs built in plywood - I'm talking structure here - not hull design. Three big blokes and wings bigger than these pi$$y ones. I'm thinking boat boats built by John McConaghy (yes, that McConaghy - not only one of the first into composites but one of the very finest builders in wood). I can't find a single photo on the net of boats by the Kulmar brothers or JM. How easily the history is lost. So not surprising it feels strange to newer sailors.

 

So there are two factors - the wing not breaking at the hull juncture (example is the 18s) and the wing itself not breaking ... heres a longer and narrower hiking apparatus of plywood. Deflection goes with the square of the length. The wings on my boat start looking somewhat conservative :)

 

ic.jpg

 

Yep ... before everything was composite - it was all done in wood - to much the same and often better weight if you keep the cost/durability within reason.

 

Self Draining

The first NS14 built for me in '79 was built by Ian Bashford. It was a mould flopped off the Holme's brother's Red Rog. I did mine as a non self drainer and a second shell was finished off by Gavin Jones as a Self drainer.

 

And of course I've owned scow moths, sailed Skates and VJs a few times and Lasers. So why not self draining?

 

First ... lets get bailing after capsize straight. How much water does a side tanked boat like a 505, 420, Taser come up holding?

 

So dismissing that ... how about water that you take on while sailing? Two reasons ... heel speed and waves. (I'm bad at counting)

 

Heel is similar to capsize ... if you have side tanks you are unlikely to ship much water with a close call. These flat bottomed boats are very dry sailors ... a rounded or veed hull means that theres always some forward hull surface pointing at your face - real experience over many years shows not so when the bottom is squarish - totally different spray pattern. And speed - well, this isn't meant to be a Swift Solo or 49er - think of how a cherub or 49er is sailed in sub planing conditions - that's the permanent upwind mode for this boat - though in smoothish water low and fast might work. Note the Sabre dinghy at the top of the post - similar criticisms about non self bailing - big popularity (including lots of (older) dudes (like me) with serious background (less like me)) blunt entry, slower in waves and kicks water everywhere.

 

Obviously there is a large part of the market to which this is acceptable.

 

But this is just minimising the problem - saying it is not too bad in practical sailing. We need much more than that to make the decision to eliminate something that can make sailing more pleasant. I agree totally with the advantages of the raised floor.

 

But ...

 

a/ Raised floors are only nice if someone else can build them for you.

 

First you have to realise just how quickly boats like this can be built. My target is for a very experienced builder to do a hull in close to couple of weekends or a new builder in a couple of months. This goes back to marketability.

 

Build the boat without a false floor...

Precoat plywood with epoxy.

sleep

Sand Plywood and cut panels (9 pieces), put cleats (bits of wood for attaching other pieces of ply) where the deck is going to go and a small number of cleats for right angle joins within the structure.

sleep

Assemble cockpit sides, bulkheads and webs - spend rest of day getting on with the other bits - foredeck beam, chainplate webs, stem, mast support/partner (depending on deck stepped or free standing rig.

sleep

wrap side panels around the cockpit structure, bottom, tape up temporarily and fillet everything inside.

sleep

Fair down deck substructure and put deck on - flip boat glass tape and epoxy coat in one operation.

Sleep

Fair down deck ply - glue underside on wings.

Then it's sparring, foils etc. Every fitting is dimensioned and located in the plan.

 

(processes mean you have to stop after and wait for glue/fillets/tape to cure)

So lets look at the extra steps if there is a self drainer. This has to slot in

minimum of 5 extra pieces with lots of cutouts, stringers,

new process - Locate and fillet bulkheads in place ... not so easy to hold or clamp without troublesome cable ties or copper wire)

new process - stringers

new process - possible glassing the underside if using 4mm ply.

new process Fit/trim cockpit floor - every one will be a little different - ply thickness, slight errors with alignment of previous structure (slight misalignments are no prob with this type of boneless structure - unless you do things like self draining floors)

 

So if you understand just how quick a boat like this goes together you'll find a false floor almost doubles the time and processes for the building of the hull. I've done a couple of self draining designs, and everyone who had built a non self drainer previously complained bitterly about the amount of work and finishing under the floor. It really makes for the labour of two boats.

 

321606071_fec1ffd427_z.jpghttp://www.storerboatplans.com/Orangeboat/Orangeboat.html

 

So that's the real reason. Self drainers are only nice to build if someone else builds them for you (or has a mould which someone else has taken hours and hours to make).

 

b/ Patterns of use for self build boats

The market for plans for self built boats is quite large as is their presence in club racing (when's the last time a Sabre or Windmill was featured on SA ... happens sometimes ... but tread the mainstream with traps and assy and the performance edge and there are countless discussions.

 

It's great ... and I pick up a lot and complain about how expensive boats are getting and how they put off starting and intermediate sailors. Or experienced ones wanting to drop out the arms race.

 

What happens here is highly skewed compared to what the bulk of real sailors actually do and skewed from the boats that really make up the bulk of the marketplace.

 

People still have little worry with their non self drainging Taser's, 505s Sabres, 420s, 470s and it's a non question. The bulk of the people who are into wooden boats haven't even heard of self draining floors for dayboats and dinghies - because they like to keep things simple.

 

People really do like boats that go together quickly

 

People like short masts

 

People like every 5kg you can pull out of the boat for portability and storage. A laser is a PITA - what if it was 13kg lighter - fits within people's needs better.

 

But I do like self drainers and I'm trying to come up with a way that these really simple and fast building methods can accomodate them without excessive labour and they might appear in a future iteration of something else.

 

Best wishes

Michael Storer

Canoe's rock we have a few at our club great boats bit of a learning curve for the non dinghy types but really not that bad once you get the feel for it.

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........ If Mik was designing the raciest boat he could come up with it'd look much different from this little dinghy, but he's trying for a different market............

....yeh,,I'm getting that,,,,most of the comments on this thread relate to the sailing characteristics by a bunch of guys who are passionate -sailors-,,,a good number who've either built or designed boats....simple isn't everything

 

.....if it gets more sailors into sailing,,that's great.....if it was slightly refined from what it is,,,it might not discourage as many!--just saying!!!

 

.......... there's a second often overlooked aspect to a boat that does not run dry........ all the strings in the boat remain soaked. In salt water this shortens their lives dramatically ...........

......are yer actually saying that modern cordage has a ''dramatically shorter life'' in salt water???....oh I guess those salt crystals accelerate the breakdown of fibers---gawsh,,I thought it was the ratchet blocks that eat-em-up!!!

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I agree with you on the self bailing part. wet feet may be fine in the midwest and FL in the summer, but NH in the spring and fall they suck. there's a second often overlooked aspect to a boat that does not run dry - even if it only retains a quart or two: all the strings in the boat remain soaked. In salt water this shortens their lives dramatically - but in colder climates it dramatically reduces how fun it is to sail. The limiting threshold on sailing with my wife in Puget Sound was how long her body core temp could hold out against the water....

 

 

Do you suggest to your wife wear a neoprene hood when it gets cold? I use one surfing in Winter, not that great a one either, and when I do my shoulders burn with heat.

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She would have that and wetsuit and booties and gloves. We were out in 24C weather in the sun in Brittany and she had her wetsuit on, and got cold...About the only time she doesn't get cold is if it is 27C+ and the sun is out and the water is about 25C

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...what on earth are you blithering about??

 

 

....maybe yer forgot the turrets meds???....

I'm blithering about the fact that DL has not one shred of cred on this topic. Simple... but you already knew that.

 

The part about the Tourette's is a low blow, Bubba. The seven-year old kid who lives next door to me is struggling with the condition and I have a special place in my soul for his betterment. Say anything you want about me, but please leave those kinds of 'TURRETS" comments in your pillow, OK?

 

What never fails to amuse me is that Chris seems to have a hard on for Doug. 3 out of his last 4 posts all concern Doug and I am sure the percentage remains fairly high across all his previous posts.....

Sometimes, it amuses me, too, Tom.

 

Actually, you're only part right about that... I have a hard-on about anyone who maintains stupidity as their modus operandi. I happen to know and respect Michael Storer and it pains me to read of anyone who takes a bash at him without first having done some homework on the guy, understanding his comments, or as the monkey dick Lord has said himself... "he hasn't built an RC model, so who is he to deride my self appointed genius on the matter" or, words to that effect.

 

MIC is a clever, insightful guy and if he is taking his design work in this direction, it would probably be good to, at least, give him a kind moment to tell his story before getting all up on our back legs. DL is but a pimple on Storer's ass.

 

.

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So, now you are stalking me? Nice to have you around. Say something witty.

 

As to the links, or whatever would make your prehensile tail spin.... Go look for yourself. It's all out there and there's plenty of it. I'm not gonna do your homework for you.

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I'm blithering about the fact that DL has not one shred of cred on this topic. Simple... but you already knew that.

 

and you have?

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How about some of you take your shit elsewhere, rather than destroy yet another thread. I can't even see a post from DL, so how did he get to be the topic.

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I have noticed that Doug has been taking his posts down whenever Chris O jumps in. I read Doug's post and to me it seemed to be on topic and inoffensive and did not warrant Chris O's attack.

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If your passion is to build a boat... and there are a number of people like this... then you care a lot less about what it will sail like.

 

That's an astute observation which has pushed some new thinking in my head: when I think about it, it may be very hard to combine the design aim of "a boat that people will want to build" with "a boat that people want to race".

 

And I guess that kinda explains to me why you see what I call catalogue designers which have these big libraries of plans that they appear to make some kind of living from selling, and yet when you look at their boats with the eyes of someone who has done a fair bit of thinking about the design of successful racing classes then they seem very flawed, plus you just about never see any of their boats on the water - certainly not as established racing classes.

 

So perhaps what is going on is that these boats are serving a different market, not the potential racers, and of course there's nothing wrong with that at all. It also suggests that the task of designing a boat that people will both want to build and people will want to race is a particularily challenging one. Maybe that's why the Mirror dinghy, perhaps the most obvious and cetainly most successful example of a boat that did both, started life as a boat designed by a DIY specialist, and then had a complete fix up and makeover by a top racing boat designer...

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I'd be looking to Trucdesign for some design help MIK, even though I think you've got the experience and background to make a good performer

 

It needs to LOOK right

 

The cold hard truth is that there is a differnce between Hard Yakka stubbies/ Blue singlet .... and a Prada outfit for promenading on the weekends

 

your boat has not the aesthetics to sell to anyone in the sport, only to landlubbers looking for a project mate

 

 

http://www.paolobua.com/progetti.html

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Double-bottomed 505? What? Never seen that ever. FD yes. 505 no. Show me pics.

 

Self-draining is oversold and has real drawbacks in weight and in cockpit space and in capsize recovery (boat floats high) for light high performance boats. Nothing wrong with it when it works but it is not necessary for a good design. 505 vacuum bails the "20 kg" in a minute after a bad tack. Less in a breeze with transom flaps. The issue of trapeze tack to tack certainly does make sense for a "board boat" arrangement but for sitting, boards suck, and self-draining is closer to a board than a full depth cockpit.

 

Self-draining is more needed in boats that are bigger or ungainly--and yet too big and no keel, cannot be righted self-draining. Paradox.

 

This boat certainly looks different. Give it time and see how it sails. I worry about the sharp edges under the legs but that shold be pretty easy to remedy.

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My point is that MIC has a list of designs that have shown that he has a good sense of how things work and that DL does not. Doug took his post down because he was off base with his derogatory take of Storer's work and has zip to substantiate the position. I pointed that out and you guys launch on an ad hominem bonanza.

 

I happen to enjoy Michael's work and feel that he should be given the shot to demonstrate his design choices without being roasted by a fool without credentials in the matter. Whether I have, or have not, designed a dinghy myself has no part in the discussion. Direct your astute, off-target observations elsewhere. But, just for the record, I have... the Cabrillo dinghy for kids. It's searchable elsewhere on these pages if you need that piece to make your puzzle whole.

 

We'll see how this design unfolds as a nicely worked craft as I'm sure that MIC will show the process, warts and all and properly work through the sorting as it shows-up in the development. The guy is one of the good ones as he openly discusses his process with anyone who wants to know.

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I'm the builder of the prototype. It is mostly complete now, and will be on display starting tomorrow (Thursday) at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival. Come by and take a peek. It looks better in person.

And in case anybody cares, I am the demographic of who would build a boat such as this...I am someone who wants a decently quick and forgiving sailboat that I can build myself instead of another stupid stripper kayak. I could go out and buy a second hand Laser for the same money, but I want something more refined, a little dryer and with the ability to take a passenger. I don't want to deal with some out-of-control full on race boat, but would like something that is still spirited and sporty. I also wanted a boat, not a carpentry project, so this plan suits my needs. Six sheets of plywood, a couple of planks to rip down for the timber for framing, foils and spars, a gallon or so of epoxy, less than six hundred for the sail and less than five hundred for the hardware. Doesn't sound expensive when you consider the all up price is less than a shroud adjuster on a very popular racer.

Critique it as you may, but remember that every boat, yes every boat is a compromise to somebody.

Rick.

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I'm the builder of the prototype. It is mostly complete now, and will be on display starting tomorrow (Thursday) at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival. Come by and take a peek. It looks better in person.

And in case anybody cares, I am the demographic of who would build a boat such as this...I am someone who wants a decently quick and forgiving sailboat that I can build myself instead of another stupid stripper kayak. I could go out and buy a second hand Laser for the same money, but I want something more refined, a little dryer and with the ability to take a passenger. I don't want to deal with some out-of-control full on race boat, but would like something that is still spirited and sporty. I also wanted a boat, not a carpentry project, so this plan suits my needs. Six sheets of plywood, a couple of planks to rip down for the timber for framing, foils and spars, a gallon or so of epoxy, less than six hundred for the sail and less than five hundred for the hardware. Doesn't sound expensive when you consider the all up price is less than a shroud adjuster on a very popular racer.

Critique it as you may, but remember that every boat, yes every boat is a compromise to somebody.

Rick.

Why no then just buy a Tasar or an older Thistle or a Tempest or such? There's loads of them you can get for real cheap.

 

i suspect the answer is that you like to build. Which is fine

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I'm the builder of the prototype. It is mostly complete now, and will be on display starting tomorrow (Thursday) at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival. Come by and take a peek. It looks better in person.

And in case anybody cares, I am the demographic of who would build a boat such as this...I am someone who wants a decently quick and forgiving sailboat that I can build myself instead of another stupid stripper kayak. I could go out and buy a second hand Laser for the same money, but I want something more refined, a little dryer and with the ability to take a passenger. I don't want to deal with some out-of-control full on race boat, but would like something that is still spirited and sporty. I also wanted a boat, not a carpentry project, so this plan suits my needs. Six sheets of plywood, a couple of planks to rip down for the timber for framing, foils and spars, a gallon or so of epoxy, less than six hundred for the sail and less than five hundred for the hardware. Doesn't sound expensive when you consider the all up price is less than a shroud adjuster on a very popular racer.

Critique it as you may, but remember that every boat, yes every boat is a compromise to somebody.

Rick.

 

Rick,

 

You are correct, as they say "it is easy to criticise and hard to do"

 

May your new boat lift your spirits, and perhaps inspire others. May you have trade-winds to sail.

 

Fish

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I hate to respond to this lying jackass but I want Michael to know that my post was critical of "Baltic Bandit" not him or his new design. I think the new design is absolutely superb and I wish Mik great luck with it.

chrs o is my personal stalker and when he posted here I took my post down so as not to feed the jackass. "O" lied outright about my post and how I feel as he has done on innumerable occaisons. He is a despicable individual and is psychologically unballanced. Just look at his posts in the RC Multihulls thread or in any thread anywhere that I have started.

I apologize to Michael for having to write this post but the guy has deliberately lied and I won't put up with it in this case because I love your new design.

My point is that MIC has a list of designs that have shown that he has a good sense of how things work and that DL does not. Doug took his post down because he was off base with his derogatory take of Storer's work and has zip to substantiate the position. I pointed that out and you guys launch on an ad hominem bonanza.

 

I happen to enjoy Michael's work and feel that he should be given the shot to demonstrate his design choices without being roasted by a fool without credentials in the matter. Whether I have, or have not, designed a dinghy myself has no part in the discussion. Direct your astute, off-target observations elsewhere. But, just for the record, I have... the Cabrillo dinghy for kids. It's searchable elsewhere on these pages if you need that piece to make your puzzle whole.

 

We'll see how this design unfolds as a nicely worked craft as I'm sure that MIC will show the process, warts and all and properly work through the sorting as it shows-up in the development. The guy is one of the good ones as he openly discusses his process with anyone who wants to know.

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I hate to respond to this lying jackass but I want Michael to know that my post was critical of "Baltic Bandit" not him or his new design. I think the new design is absolutely superb and I wish Mik great luck with it.

chrs o is my personal stalker and when he posted here I took my post down so as not to feed the jackass. "O" lied outright about my post and how I feel as he has done on innumerable occaisons. He is a despicable individual and is psychologically unballanced. Just look at his posts in the RC Multihulls thread or in any thread anywhere that I have started.

I apologize to Michael for having to write this post but the guy has deliberately lied and I won't put up with it in this case because I love your new design.

one for the archives!

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It surely is, coming from someone with such a record of "balanced" rationality. As I recollect, Doug embracing a design has been pretty much its Kiss Of death

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Does nothing for me, looks like a box with a home made sail. I used to build a wooden Fireball hull in less than a week and they looked good, were comfortable to sail and fast, this doesn't look like any of the above.

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Ground Control here Major

 

seems to me there are two kinds of plywood boxes

 

  1. easy on the eye
  2. boxy

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Ground Control here Major

 

seems to me there are two kinds of plywood boxes

 

 

  • easy on the eye
  • boxy
MT to ground control, understood.

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Chapelle had it right. And actually Michael recognizes that: flat bottmed boats are easy to build yet difficult to design well.

 

The reverse sheer is part of what you are seeing. The stubby wings also accentuate the boxiness. Give it time.

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well where does that put Paolo Bua ?

 

in the genuis or master category? like a michelangelo ?

 

----------------------------------------

 

or Milne ? note a Fireball has a flat bottom

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A couple of quick points.

Fine about the Patterson 7 comments - read what I said more carefully - "if one boat can show it works even in a different speed regime then it suggests that something else might work too". So we're trying it, rather than guessing - and you are really right about width of the waterline. Also it's not my first flat bottomed sailing design - as per the links in my original reply to Slim's thread starting post.

It is an interesting question for me as I want to find out how quickly a boat can be built and how well it can be made to sail.

The Goat Island Skiff which is similarly flat bottomed with a balance lug rig has a club yardstick about the same as a Laser in one instance racing in a mixed fleet - It loses a few percentage points against the Lasers upwind and does rather better down - bigger sail and maybe less wetted surface - despite the weight of two people in the goat.

9384742486_b13fc31959_z.jpg

Goat Island Skiff in classic mode (English RAID - untested goat won over line and handicap in the first race - one came third in the Caledonia RAID a few years back)

9384739398_de0fa2b7c0.jpg

George's boat that's been club raced this last summer on launching day - google "Goat Island Skiff" and you'll find there's a few more around

George-Isted-UK-launching-day.jpg

From George..

Just enjoyed what was probably my last Tuesday night race of the season and it was a great way to finish, I ended up sailing alone and enjoyed being solo for a change although we started in 12 kts and the extra weight would have been handy in the gusts. My handicap has been adjusted, the GIS is just too fast for the clubs slow fleet so I’m now sailing off 1048 which is faster than a Laser and I think may be a little too far in the wrong direction. Anyhow, I had a great sail and spent much of the first lap trading places with a Laser 2000 (sailing 1090) but in the dying breeze of the second lap I managed to keep the boat going while the 2000 got stuck in a hole on the last beat. Sadly it’s getting too dark too early in the evening and the sun was just setting as I hauled the boat out, there is still Sunday racing so I’ll have to try and do a few of them (and have a quiet word about my handicap).


And then

As an update to this, I questioned the revised handicap and this was a mistake in the race box, the new revised handicap is 1117, I expect this is about correct. Hopfully I'll have time to get a few Sunday races in between now and Christmas.
4 September at 00:30



So these boats mix in a regular club race fleet and give people the regular race fleet experience - flat bottom, lug rig 'n all.

Someone some of you will know. Michael McNamara - a good UK (as in country) sailmaker and holder of (over twenty, I think) many national titles in a range of classes. This was to a builder in the Netherlands who wanted to order a sail - Mike had just sailed the GIS that was in Norfolk.

Ralph, I had a nice long sail in Richard`s Goat Island Skiff today and had a lovely sail. He has made a great job of the boat and it went like a dream.

I was very impressed with how simple the controls were and how quickly the boat went. It was also beautifully balanced.

As you could expect the boat felt better when it was slightly heeled when beating. Off wind it felt fast but didn’t create a planning sort of wash...it just went faster and faster.

When tacking I found that I had to be quite forceful in pushing it into the wind and it was definitely better to

"roll" it coming out of the tack. I'm glad that I did have a sail because I found that I need to modify the sail slightly to give more fullness at the head. The gaff bent more than I had anticipated.

I will now get started on your sail and be in touch soon. Hope that is ok.


Most of the critical comments here are saying the flat bottomed boat won't be able to sail out of it's own way. Guesswork is never enough - you actually have to do something to find out.

Here is a Balance lug YAWL 32 inch wide BETH sailing canoe that's been club raced in B.C and the report from the owner.

003-560x374.jpg

006-Custom-560x374.jpg

http://www.storerboatplans.com/wp/boat/sailing-boat/how-does-the-beth-sailing-canoe-go-in-mixed-fleets-and-handicap-racing/

I'd love to hear you lot talk about how a flat bottomed yawl rigged balance lug canoe would do in club racing if the boat hadn't hit the water!

This new boat is lighter than the goat, with less sail but a more conventional sailplan - which will help upwind, hopefully without losing anything down.

With the Swift Solo lack of numbers and the health problems etc of the designer - yep - work to promote a boat, work out the bugs and provide support and documentation to the builders is essential. And that's what good designers do. But it doesn't eliminate the effects of what I was saying about jumping into an already saturated marketplace or the expense of the rig and components despite the basic cheapness of the hull.

With the 420 taking water while sailing - read what I wrote about other boats and water and get a sail on a BETH or Goat Island Skiff and see the difference while sailing and acknowledge I'm right about side tank boats being water free after capsize - which was the only reason I mentioned the 420 at all. Suggest rereading the post.

So we are getting on with getting the boat closer to the water and starting to debug it, making sure it holds together as well as my other designs and sails well.

Best wishes to all

Michael Storer.

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Thanks for all the email enquiries and the 50 plus sign ups to my website.

The schedule for the new boat goes like this.

  • This weekend it is at the Port Townsend wooden boat show in Washington State - despite not quite being rigged properly - Rick has been working hard and late to get it as ready as it is.
  • Next weekend is probably the start of on the water debugging - first targets will be getting the mast bend right - might take a few passes through the thicknesser. It will continue with the local race fleet and test sailing until the water goes hard (he's outside Vancouver)
  • I've got all the major drawings ready - fittings lists done, rigging diagrams done but need lots of detail drawings about how things go together plus the text to do. I'll hold off on getting going on the plans until we basically know the boat is OK. There's months of work in the plans.
  • Plans to completion will be two or three months - takes a while to write and debug approx 100 pages including making templated foils (adds a couple of hours to the build but a huge performance boost) and every aspect of the build. Plus I'm setting up a small sail loft in the Philippines to make sails for my range of boats ... busy busy - sails will be from my plans agents and substantially cheaper from the same materials you'd expect in UK, US, OZ or wherever.
  • Plans will be approx 100 pages, fully detailed so a first time builder has the best chance of getting everything right. Price will be about $100 for online plan download or about $130 for a published book. No full sized patterns because these move around too much if they go to somewhere tropical but the markup method is easy, accurate and is set up so that errors are obvious.
  • All being well kits will be available from my regular kit suppliers Fyne Boat Kits for UK/Europe, CKD boats in South Africa and one or two of my kit suppliers in the USA


On with the testing.

Best wishes to all

Michael Storer

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Just tried to edit my post to acknowledge the comments about the Paterson 7 working because of the narrow waterline - that is very true of these flat bottomed boats. Comments about flare vs no flare - I covered that in my second post and some flare doesn't seem to harm the Goat Island Skiff. The new boat has more flare pushed a bit further back.

 

It will slow up less than the very popular Sabre (photo in second post) which has a very full entry because of the vee bottom working with the rounded base of stem.

 

For non builders - if the transition from the stem to the keel is rounded in a ply boat that shape is transferred through to the bottom panels - because the bottom panels make up that curved part of the stem profile so the fore part of bottom must be curved (fuller) as well

I'm not slighting any of the boats I mention - even the 420. I'm using them as quantities that are well known to most people here to cover specific points.

 

Best wishes

Michael

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Double-bottomed 505? What? Never seen that ever. FD yes. 505 no. Show me pics.

 

Self-draining is oversold and has real drawbacks in weight and in cockpit space and in capsize recovery (boat floats high) for light high performance boats. Nothing wrong with it when it works but it is not necessary for a good design.

... ....

 

Never said anything about "necessary." Just better.

 

When capsized, boats don't float on their bottom so I don't understand how you think a self-bailing boat boat would float too high. In any event, a good design is done to take the placement of flotation into account so the boat doesn't turtle too quickly or float too high to reach the CB.

 

Self-bailing is not "oversold"at least not by me, I'm not trying to sell anything. Just saying that a non-self-bailing boat is a PITA and boats that are PITA is one reason why the sport is shrinking. With a plywood boat, trapping dirt in the recesses & corners is a longevity thing. The easier they are to wash out, and the quicker & better they drain, the longer they stay solid.

 

Weight, yes. This is one of the big trade-offs. A self-bailing cockpit floor has to be strong enough to hold up a person weight without the support of water pushing on the other side. So it does add weight (all else being equal). Once again, an issue to be addressed by the designer -if- he makes it a priority.

 

As for pics of a double floor 5O5, sure. Gimme a time machine so I can go back to regattas in 1970s. I'm sure there are still some around but I have no idea where.

 

FB- Doug

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... ...

 

So if you understand just how quick a boat like this goes together you'll find a false floor almost doubles the time and processes for the building of the hull. ... .... ...

 

People like every 5kg you can pull out of the boat for portability and storage. A laser is a PITA - what if it was 13kg lighter - fits within people's needs better.

 

But I do like self drainers and I'm trying to come up with a way that these really simple and fast building methods can accomodate them without excessive labour.

 

 

Light = good

Fast building method for self-bailing... well you put bulkheads in "normal" boats and a self-bailing cockpit floor is just an almost-flat watertight bulkhead. If the designer figures it into the shape of the boat, gives a good pattern for it, and the build sequence is planned around it rather than putting it as an afterthought, then why would it be so difficult & time consuming?

 

Here's an effort I knocked together quick this afternoon, hardly finished but it should get the idea across. In fact I don't particularly like the hull shape, it's well balanced but the curve of the gun'l from amidships to the bow looks awkward.

 

post-30927-0-91520400-1378426930_thumb.jpg

 

.

 

post-30927-0-68710700-1378427034_thumb.jpg

 

.

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... ...

 

So if you understand just how quick a boat like this goes together you'll find a false floor almost doubles the time and processes for the building of the hull. ... .... ...

 

People like every 5kg you can pull out of the boat for portability and storage. A laser is a PITA - what if it was 13kg lighter - fits within people's needs better.

 

But I do like self drainers and I'm trying to come up with a way that these really simple and fast building methods can accomodate them without excessive labour.

 

 

 

 

attachicon.gif13ft 2-chine beach sailer DSK vw05.jpg

 

Sorry, computer stuttered and I did not add the construction view

 

post-30927-0-72184400-1378427192_thumb.jpg

 

post-30927-0-11814400-1378427209_thumb.jpg

 

post-30927-0-16056900-1378427256_thumb.jpg

 

It's a matter of giving the offsets for the floor and incorporating it into the build. Instead of putting side panels on the bulkheads and bending, use the floor (which has to be strong & stiff anyway) as a base to put the bulkheads on.

 

Not my original idea BTW

 

FB- Doug

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The Doug, Chris and BB show. More cackly than The View.

 

That's OK with me, Speedy... as long as you recognize the obvious casting setup. Doug is played by the niggling, abrasive conservative twit, Elisabeth Hasselbeck. BB is the professorial, Whoopee Goldberg and I'm doing a star turn as a guest appearance from Tom Selleck.

 

;-)

 

Cackle away...

 

.

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LOL good call on the characters. BB as whoopee is priceless. I now have an image of Whoopee on the trap, on a Musto, belting out, "Whoopee!" and "Yee-haaaa!". It's a sight to see.

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Been watching this thread for a while and holding or developing my thoughts and coments, but now its starting to wander off subject I'll though in bit.

 

I am not particularly impressed with the boat as a design, but I do think it will serve its primary purpose very well. It will sell plans for Storer and many of the purchasers will complete their projects and be very happy with what they build. This is because he has designed a boat which looks interesting, but is very simple to build and which will be light enough to be managable on and off the water.

 

It will not become a racing class because the builders will be too wide spread and most of them only want to build something not go racing, because there are much better racing options already available everywhere.

 

It will not threaten or replace any existing (single handed) classes which attract people for other reasons. The Laser, Swift, Musto, IC, Moth or Contender all have their own special features which attract their own racing fans. Just as many other small goups favour smaller local classes or designs and build and/or sail them with much enjoyment.

 

Getting people interested in building boats and going sailing is an admirable achievment on its own and our sport will benefit.

 

But I would prefer if there were a few more curves in the hull shape.

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It will not become a racing class because the builders will be too wide spread and most of them only want to build something not go racing, because there are much better racing options already available everywhere.

 

I wouldn't be so sure. I note that the PDRacer class has over 800 members, and there is no class more boxy than the PDRacer. By comparison, Michael's boat is a thing of beauty and I wish him success with it. I'm looking forward to see how it performs. Michael, Bjalgera, please keep us informed.

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Nice measured comment Phil.

 

Really nice quick example Steam! one of the things that a doublebottomed boat does is let you reduce the amount of material you need in the sides of the boat to make it longitudinally stiff. So there is a weight and comfort offset there as well

 

As for PDRacers -- part of the appeal of PD racing is that it is boxy. its something you can throw together 3 hours before the race with a circular saw, a nailgun and tube of caulk. So I don't see this taking off as a class. I do see it sitting iin the boatshed on a large number of small lakes, the proud project of someone retired or a Father and Son/Daughter project.

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