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NZL5

ETNZ vs. Oracle: Races 5 and 6.

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Kostecki needs to work less and to have a better view from the boat.

Besides, there is something about this boat that its handling compromizes work of the tactician and the helmsman.

That probably wouldn't hurt, but he also needs to bloody well cover. In fact, Jimmy should be able to handle that one himself, isn't he the match racing wunderkind? How the hell is he letting the other guys sail off to the other side of the course, time after time? Was he so rattled by the terrible rounding? I don't know.

Agreed. The only race OR started upwind with a lead and then covered was... Race 4! This one and Race 3 they were playing the course too much, split too far, and lost the lead for it.

 

I'm not convinced OR is significantly slower in a straight line than NZ. People keep pointing out instances where NZ has a speed advantage, but you can never know from our removed perspective if that's due to straightline boat speed or NZ getting a puff. And sometimes it's b/c OR is in the current and NZ isn't. Snapshots like that are not constant enough to be statistically significant.

 

It's clear NZ tacks better, and when OR hasn't covered them they come out better on tactics too, which I think is where most of NZ's margins are coming from. OR has gotta use this postponement to fix the tacking problem, win the start, get to the bottom mark first, then cover loosely upwind. That was recipe for Race 4!, just need to stick with it.

Exactly!

 

OR are slower tacking and lose on each one...So as a ETNZ supporter, I agree, OR should get right in there with a tacking duel. Definitely..... :D

 

Yeap, tough for OR slower in the tacks but you still need to cover.

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Forget crews, skippers, managers, CEO,s... the real winners of this America's cup is, without doubt, is ETNZ's design team.

 

 

A lot of people pointed this out during the ACWS but a lot of dickheads spent a lot of time talking up their teams and bagging ETNZ.

 

The kiwi team said at the time the AC45s didn't mean much - they were focussed on the AC72.

 

The implications of this must be starting to make more sense to the Oracle fans now.

 

They have spent years on development and more than 100 days sailing and refining the package.

 

Jimmy shows the skills and, especially at the starts demonstrates that in even boats he may well be the best driver, but THAT ISN'T AMERICAS CUP - having the best design, build, crew, lawyers, shore team logistics and so on, that's what Americas Cup is.

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Well done ETNZ.

 

However, I really feel for the OTUSA guys who must be facing a big reality check right now. Never good to know your options have been reduced and there's not much left in the bag.

 

Despite the criticism on here of OTUSA pulling the plug on the second race, it was a strategic decision and perhaps not as dangerous for them as some have speculated. I say this because they do have a second boat that although not as fast, is still able to take over if anything happens to B2.

 

Of course, I'm assuming B1 has a measurement certificate and that under the rules it is allowed to sail (if not, then they realy are in trouble).

 

Will we see Sir Ben and some of his crew take over at some stage? Last-ditch effort if it gets to that?

 

A minor problem on B2 won't let them sail boat one. B2 pretty much needs to sink for them to be allowed to race B1, or do I have that wrong?

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Does anyone know which hotel Spinbot is staying in? If you do, please put a call through to them to remove all sharp objects, curtain ropes, any chairs he can break (white plastic chair safest for him now), and put another 10 bibles on his bedside table.

And please don't leave him alone... :)

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I would not be surprised if Pete Melvin and Gino Morrelli do not already have drafts of proposed AC35 Class Rules and boat designs substantially advanced...

 

Fer sure. Input from the entire design team. Plus rules advisor Russell Green well advanced on a draft protocol.

 

Not gloating here. It's a fact of AC life that any challenger with a hope of winning needs to be working weeks or months in advance on its options for CoR, local bases and infrastructure, funding, boat choices, draft rule, Protocol, etc.

 

EDIT: I've barely managed to read 20% of the posts on the Forum since the match started. So apologies if already covered but NZ Prime Minister John Key has already said the gummint will pony up, if the need arises, for an AC35 defence.

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Just looking at the replay of today's race. in the upwind leg, It looks like Oracle got a huge knock after tacking at the boundary at Alcatraz. At the tack on the boundary, Oracles lead drops from 30 to 13m but then the lead _should_ start rebuiliding At the same time ETNZ tacks at the boundary. Normally Oracle should see their lead extend as ETNZ slows after the tack but instead, ETNZ tacks AND gains on Oracle (because of the knock). Oracle recognizes this and tacks back towards Alacatraz, but its to late and ETNz has taken a 100m lead. Things go downhill from here

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Will we see Coutts on the boats before this is over...Bring back Coutts..... :D:D:D ...Pay backs a bitch...

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OR don't seem to have any real semi displacement or foiling mode up wind. They are getting the full noise wetted surface drag all the way. and not pointing any higher than ETNZ in that mode. All the practice in the world is not going to change that fact that the design team got it wrong.....

 

I've thought for a long time that we had the better boat upwind.

With the planing hulls, if ETNZ hits a wave or goes nose down, the planing hulls are more likely to push the boat back up quickly.

Compare this to Oracle's hulls, in the same situation they are far more likely to "stub their toes".

 

It would appear this situation is exarcerbated in the tacks.

Would agree. The wide planing surface(s) adjacent to the dagger board on ETNZ give them a third 'mode', that gets them thru maneuvers when they come off the foils. Those OTUSA displacement hulls look sticky as soon as the boat is off the foils.

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So far every upwind leg has pretty much had every City Front SF racer shaking their head regarding the OR team tactics. Hell just about every J/24 local who has bashed up and down the city front knows where some of the mistakes were with the OR tactics. When they were in the lead they went out of their way to hand NZ the lead again.

 

BTW Larry has raced the city front enough to know that something is up with the tactics being called on the boat and you better believe he is watching and conferring with some skilled sailors familiar with the city front and whats going on with the tactics.

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So, on a typical day with the Westerly breeze, that foiling tack might give Oracle the most bang for their Alcatraz-cone buck, right? Get them in the cone on both port and stbd for a while. They shoulda known this wasn't the case today. This lack of attention to detail is killing them.

 

Instead, they needed to figure out the "layline" to the edge of that cone and hit that. That would basically mean tacking right where ETNZ eventually tacked. It would have a) given them a better tack, and B) given them a controlling position going into that area. ETNZ's only recourse then is to go to shore to salvage a split, and would thereby lose out on getting to the Alca-cone. I think this simple change in breeze direction, and a failure to recognize it's impact made the whole race.

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That he should approach the problem of navigating a 40KSB afresh as compared to a 4KSB?

had a good laugh at the 40 knot shit box comment. :D:D

 

A totally bad ass, sweet looking yacht, that screams around the course at unreal speeds - Any where else, in any other race on the planet, it would be incredible. But all it takes is one other boat to make it a (comparative) shit box.

 

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Just got back to boat - in Andratx - fucking soccer took precedent in the bar (bloody grokles) - getting ready for second race, and it's called off.

I know we won it .... BUT WHERE????

The start, downwind - on the beat - did anyone make a big boo boo ?????

 

Que???

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Not read any of the thread but watched this in the pub and was shocked to see Oracle do that. Get JK off the boat. Too much group think.

 

I guess thats because I don't rate him and never have.

 

But IMHO Oracle threw away that race. Actually, JK threw away that race. And the a few of the earlier ones.

 

On the other hand, boat speed makes any tactician look like a god and Ray is looking pretty good at the moment...

 

One design high end yachting... Ray would be in my top 5. JK would just about make it into my top 15-20. And I've sailed with against the lot.

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Will we see Coutts on the boats before this is over...Bring back Coutts..... :D:D:D ...Pay backs a bitch...

Maybe he could drill it through the RC boat...now that would be very special:)

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And they are not even dressed in Prada gear....

:D Revenge is a dish ..

 

As a consolation, guess which past race is being shown again (R4, of course)

 

Cheap shot about the Prada gear.

 

In light of that, especially nice to get a comment from Italian partisan re the ACTV choice (1 out of 5) to show R4

Cheap shot against arrogant RC calling us spoiled rich kids dressed etc,,,,

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Race 5.

 

No lucky wind shift for OTUSA - so no win.

We don't have "lucky" wind shifts on SF Bay. They're as predictable as time, to the extent that we name the damn things. It's is why we're so perplexed by the tactical calls. If you sail here, there are no surprises.

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Nothing OR can do from here. They just don't have any legs upwind. Upwind speed makes you look like a tactical genius and if you don't have speed upwind any normal tactics might as well go out the window.

Other than completely modifying their hulls to suit better maneuvers they are pretty much F**ked.

 

Weeeeelcome Home...etnz.

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Annoying reporter: "Jimmy how safe are you feeling in your job right now?"

 

JS: "You can be a rooster one day a feather duster the next, mate."

 

+1

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I would not be surprised if Pete Melvin and Gino Morrelli do not already have drafts of proposed AC35 Class Rules and boat designs substantially advanced...

 

gino said as much

 

hope he and pete have signed for the next cycle

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This reminds me of 1992 Coutts and Butterworth were put on in the end they were the best but they couldn't bring it back from where they were.

OR are in the same position if they make crew changes.

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It's well within the rules for Oracle to duck out of this afternoon's race but my first reaction was "Those bloody cowards!".

 

But in reality it's much better they do it now than down the track, say if ETNZ made it to 8 points after the morning race on a day before a rest day.

 

Now OR can't piss in their porridge and make them wait a couple of days to seal the deal.

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This is the Jimmy of old I like. Good honest answers from the heart..no cockiness evident. I hope they get their boat sorted and be a bit more competitive...

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I was actually impressed with how JS handled that media conference. He didn't have room to be cocky and wasn't, but still had some humour left in him.

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Why are the commentators saying that ETNZ need to win another 5 races. They only need to win another 4 races, that would result in:

 

ETNZ - 8 Race wins = 8 pts

 

Or - 9 Race wins = 9pts - 2pts = 7 pts.

 

ETNZ need to win 8 races not 9 and Or need to win 10 races not 11.

 

 

Bob Fisher is also making the same mistake .... http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Americas-Cup:-One-Race---One-Step-Closer-for-the-Kiwis---Day-3/114305

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Why are the commentators saying that ETNZ need to win another 5 races. They only need to win another 4 races, that would result in:

 

ETNZ - 8 Race wins = 8 pts

 

Or - 9 Race wins = 9pts - 2pts = 7 pts.

 

ETNZ need to win 8 races not 9 and Or need to win 10 races not 11.

Bob202 will be along shortly to kick you in the nuts!!!

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Why are the commentators saying that ETNZ need to win another 5 races. They only need to win another 4 races, that would result in:

 

ETNZ - 8 Race wins = 8 pts

 

Or - 9 Race wins = 9pts - 2pts = 7 pts.

 

ETNZ need to win 8 races not 9 and Or need to win 10 races not 11.

You are an idiot.

 

It is first to 9 POINTS.

 

So they need 5 more points.

 

It is not best of 17.

 

Can someone pin this in the forum.

 

Fucking retards....

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So far every upwind leg has pretty much had every City Front SF racer shaking their head regarding the OR team tactics. Hell just about every J/24 local who has bashed up and down the city front knows where some of the mistakes were with the OR tactics. When they were in the lead they went out of their way to hand NZ the lead again.

 

BTW Larry has raced the city front enough to know that something is up with the tactics being called on the boat and you better believe he is watching and conferring with some skilled sailors familiar with the city front and whats going on with the tactics.

+1

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When the ACWS was here in Newport last summer I had several opportunities to speak to Jimmy Spithill both on the record (I was covering the event for a local paper) and off. Seeing him at the press conference today reminded me of what I liked about him when we spoke. He's really good under pressure, he's not afraid to be candid, and all in all he's a real credit to the sport.

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This is the Jimmy of old I like. Good honest answers from the heart..no cockiness evident. I hope they get their boat sorted and be a bit more competitive...

+1

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I was actually impressed with how JS handled that media conference. He didn't have room to be cocky and wasn't, but still had some humour left in him.

You reckon Jimmy checked the forum?

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Did anyone catch Jimmy's line towards the end of the original (race) broadcast (shortly after his interview, I think)? Can't remember exactly and the replay is not online yet (and it might get scrubbed anyway) but it went something like "We're gonna go for a sail now... He can stay on the boat or get off... It's up to him..."

 

Sounded like at least somebody's ass is in the sling... Wonder who "he" is? JK? TS?

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You gotta like, Jimmy.

 

Asked how safe he feels in his position after race 5, he replies, 'Mate you can be a rooster one day and a feather duster the next'.

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This is the Jimmy of old I like. Good honest answers from the heart..no cockiness evident. I hope they get their boat sorted and be a bit more competitive...

 

+1

 

He is much more impressive today :)

 

I would hate to have a camera in my face every day, easy to get "caught out" so to speak, and we all make those mistakes!!

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Did anyone catch Jimmy's line towards the end of the original (race) broadcast (shortly after his interview, I think)? Can't remember exactly and the replay is not online yet (and it might get scrubbed anyway) but it went something like "We're gonna go for a sail now... He can stay on the boat or get off... It's up to him..."

 

Sounded like at least somebody's ass is in the sling... Wonder who "he" is? JK? TS?

 

""We're gonna go for a sail now..." 100% he definitely said that, I couldn't believe the TV commentators didn't pick it up

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I'm not convinced that Race 4 was anything but luck. It looked to me like they were doing the same thing - go to the favored side - won the dice roll. Splitting to go to the fast side works - some of the time. Covering works - all of the time. That's why you cover, assuming you have the capability to execute a cover.

 

It's possible that OR doesn't think they're capable of covering. It's possible they're scared to engage too closely. It's possible that things simply unfold too fast for the guys to really manage good tactics.

 

You can't run good tactics until you're running the boat well. Sailing competitively is *all* *about* cognitive load. You get basic sailing automatic, then you can focus on speed issues. You get the sailing fast to be pretty automatic and you start focusing on some basic tactics. You get the basic tactics automatic and you start picking up the shifts. You start picking up the shifts automatically and get into setting up tactics for the next leg, and so on. This is why time in the boat is so very very very important.

 

It's possible that OR simply hasn't got enough time in the boat, they're still working on how to sail the thing fast and struggling with the next step up because there's not enough brainpower left over to manage decent tactics.

 

The cognitive load on these things has to be simply shattering. Just keeping the damned thing upright is a job of work.

 

1min is a lot of 'luck'.

 

Faster upwind, end of story.

 

I know jc172... tends to be quick to jump to conclusions, but in this case I think he is right.

1 minute+ on a single upwind leg is a hell of a lot of luck.

 

ETNZ have a faster boat upwind and dumbass tactics by Oracle made it look worse for them.

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Spithill was asked directly if Kostecki's job was safe. He answered that no one's job is safe, which is a pretty good indication of what might be about to happen. He also said that he was very satisfied with Kyle Langford's effort thus far.

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This is the Jimmy of old I like. Good honest answers from the heart..no cockiness evident. I hope they get their boat sorted and be a bit more competitive...

+1

+1 just don't improve the boat... :rolleyes:

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They actually let me in that wharehouse in April, i've actually seen it touched it and blighted it,but they never knew i was rooting for the Kiwis,i love to see the yanks when they have a right hot nail up thier ass.It's a comedy show just watchin em.Wonder where the guy at the end of race 4 on Sunday is at now that was shoutin USA USA USA

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I would not be surprised if Pete Melvin and Gino Morrelli do not already have drafts of proposed AC35 Class Rules and boat designs substantially advanced...

 

gino said as much

 

hope he and pete have signed for the next cycle

 

That sounds almost like "cheating".

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Today's presser:

 

JS: "... It was obvious, unless we make some changes, there was a real chance we were not going to win the second race of the day. We have to do what we can and we will. ... "

 

Sounds like it is not a matter of if they are going to make personnel changes but who is gone.

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The only reason that Spithillwould play the card is because he lost trust in his tactician, and didn't want to risk another race. Kostecki is out.

 

I think that would be a disasterous move for them in terms of morale and upsetting the settled combinations.

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I am starting to wonder if ETNZ simply "threw" race 4, simply to tempt OR back for another before crushing them ? Scoreline of 4 - 0, is nicer than 3 -0 ?

 

Sandbagging during the AC finals would be a pretty big call when these boats gain and lose so fast...

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Guys, OR not "cowards" for doing this, it's just smart strategy, like in Basketball, using your timeouts near the end of a losing game to reset, buy time, fix problems, engineer a comeback, etc.

.

Good analogy, it is a good time to call this timeout.

 

It was one Hell of a Race until that bottom mark but man o man what a disaster that decision led to. Strategy needs to take a deep breath.

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Did anyone catch Jimmy's line towards the end of the original (race) broadcast (shortly after his interview, I think)? Can't remember exactly and the replay is not online yet (and it might get scrubbed anyway) but it went something like "We're gonna go for a sail now... He can stay on the boat or get off... It's up to him..."

 

Sounded like at least somebody's ass is in the sling... Wonder who "he" is? JK? TS?

 

""We're gonna go for a sail now..." 100% he definitely said that, I couldn't believe the TV commentators didn't pick it up

 

Reported here aaages ago that Jimmy said that they played their delay card in order to regroup rather than for boat issues.

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I'm not convinced that Race 4 was anything but luck. It looked to me like they were doing the same thing - go to the favored side - won the dice roll. Splitting to go to the fast side works - some of the time. Covering works - all of the time. That's why you cover, assuming you have the capability to execute a cover.

 

It's possible that OR doesn't think they're capable of covering. It's possible they're scared to engage too closely. It's possible that things simply unfold too fast for the guys to really manage good tactics.

 

You can't run good tactics until you're running the boat well. Sailing competitively is *all* *about* cognitive load. You get basic sailing automatic, then you can focus on speed issues. You get the sailing fast to be pretty automatic and you start focusing on some basic tactics. You get the basic tactics automatic and you start picking up the shifts. You start picking up the shifts automatically and get into setting up tactics for the next leg, and so on. This is why time in the boat is so very very very important.

 

It's possible that OR simply hasn't got enough time in the boat, they're still working on how to sail the thing fast and struggling with the next step up because there's not enough brainpower left over to manage decent tactics.

 

The cognitive load on these things has to be simply shattering. Just keeping the damned thing upright is a job of work.

 

1min is a lot of 'luck'.

 

Faster upwind, end of story.

 

I know jc172... tends to be quick to jump to conclusions, but in this case I think he is right.

1 minute+ on a single upwind leg is a hell of a lot of luck.

 

ETNZ have a faster boat upwind and dumbass tactics by Oracle made it look worse for them.

Actually, Amolitor was referring to OR's win in Race 4 as luck, to quote: "I'm not convinced that Race 4 was anything but luck". It's called tautological English, the use of the double-negative.

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I am starting to wonder if ETNZ simply "threw" race 4, simply to tempt OR back for another before crushing them ? Scoreline of 4 - 0, is nicer than 3 -0 ?

 

Sandbagging during the AC finals would be a pretty big call when these boats gain and lose so fast...

 

Agreed, smells like bullshit to me.

Besides, ETNZ have already said they had wing hydraulics problems in race 4.

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Spithill was asked directly if Kostecki's job was safe. He answered that no one's job is safe, which is a pretty good indication of what might be about to happen. He also said that he was very satisfied with Kyle Langford's effort thus far.

Yes. He did say that about K L.

 

But to me his body language was saying something else.

 

All is not well in camp OTUSA.

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The only reason that Spithillwould play the card is because he lost trust in his tactician, and didn't want to risk another race. Kostecki is out.

 

I think that would be a disasterous move for them in terms of morale and upsetting the settled combinations.

 

Yeah loyalty goes a long way for morale. Win or lose together. Changing crew around is not going to help. TNZ learnt that lesson in the early 90's!!!!

Who would replace JK now. How will they build that relationship in the start box in 24hrs??

 

Wheels falling off...

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I would not be surprised if Pete Melvin and Gino Morrelli do not already have drafts of proposed AC35 Class Rules and boat designs substantially advanced...

 

gino said as much

 

hope he and pete have signed for the next cycle

 

That sounds almost like "cheating".

The prerogative of the defender is that they make all the rules, can do advanced planning and can steer the defence. These advantages have all been conferred onto OR in this cycle and the outcomes of how they have used their advantages and greater resources are now on display.

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They actually let me in that wharehouse in April, i've actually seen it touched it and blighted it,but they never knew i was rooting for the Kiwis,i love to see the yanks when they have a right hot nail up thier ass.It's a comedy show just watchin em.Wonder where the guy at the end of race 4 on Sunday is at now that was shoutin USA USA USA

 

There are yanks in OR's warehouse?

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did it look like JS had a boot sole print on his crotch when getting back on the boat ??? :o:o:o:o:o

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Isn't it the first time in AC history where a "postponement card" was even available?

Isn't it the first time in AC history where boats are traveling at freeway speed?

Isn't it the first time in AC history where boats have wings?

 

I'm too tired to point out all the history breaking records being set here.

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Did anyone catch Jimmy's line towards the end of the original (race) broadcast (shortly after his interview, I think)? Can't remember exactly and the replay is not online yet (and it might get scrubbed anyway) but it went something like "We're gonna go for a sail now... He can stay on the boat or get off... It's up to him..."

 

Sounded like at least somebody's ass is in the sling... Wonder who "he" is? JK? TS?

 

""We're gonna go for a sail now..." 100% he definitely said that, I couldn't believe the TV commentators didn't pick it up

He was talking to Juan Vila. Techy, navigator chap. Been round the world a couple of times. He had a pelican case in his hand. He said: "You can stay on Juan if you like."

 

Not JK's biggest fan here but I doubt he is gone.

 

Convo on the boat with Coutts: "What should I say to the media when we are slower?" Coutts: "Fuck knows,.... I've not lost one yet before..."

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We have heard from GD that OR have put smaller rudders on he said it may work for them in a straight line but they will have huge trouble manovering the boat.

 

Answers a few questions

Stingers had no questions. He was all for it. Now he is just waiting for that badly aimed bullet to hit anybody on the ETNZ team in the foot. Sorry Stingers, just could not waste that gift opportunity, after all, smaller rudders would match with smaller elevators. Right?

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Yeah loyalty goes a long way for morale. Win or lose together. Changing crew around is not going to help. TNZ learnt that lesson in the early 90's!!!!

Who would replace JK now. How will they build that relationship in the start box in 24hrs??

 

Give JS a match racer for his tactician and it could change the dynamic. The only race OR won was the one they match raced instead of fleet raced. Worth a shot imho.

 

Otherwise, what's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

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