Barnyb

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Windward, leeward or forward loop? :unsure:

Monday they were out on the cat...

 

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seen some pics - just rolled it in to leeward as the S foil is still in raised position.  Word has it around the bars in Cowes this week that they've had some pretty big wipeouts in all directions. Be fun on a 75' version. Not.

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On 8/10/2018 at 6:40 AM, nav said:

Windward, leeward or forward loop? :unsure:

Monday they were out on the cat...

 

 

I see they have yet to address the speed issues from last cup!  :)

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Chicken runner.....

:(

Time to change the thread title?

TeamFrackTaxHaven

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Agreed. I just can't support the "UK" team, which is a bummer.

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13 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Agreed. I just can't support the "UK" team, which is a bummer.

Likewise - sold his soul to the devil.  And can bet it was more than a few £££££ !

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1 hour ago, hughw said:

Likewise - sold his soul to the devil.  And can bet it was more than a few £££££ !

Retirement fund for Ben and the boys. 

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12 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The pity is we didn't see them in stronger wind.

Breeze did look light, may be somewhere around 10 knots. Understandable that they want to get a good handle on it before they go out in a blow. Reading the comments it seems it did drop off the foils tacking - probably a combination of the light wind, unfamiliarity, etc. We don't know the control system either, and with only two on board they may lack the manpower to foil through manoeuvers? The positives for me, is that it is foiling upwind with soft sails in lightish winds. Seems a pretty good base to build on, and a good step towards proof of concept.

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Seriously someone needs to spill the beans here.

 

You can't just throw around off-hand comments about capsizes & wipeouts without at least making up some kind of a bullshit story about a plastic chair or drawing some yellow lines in MSPaint or something :unsure:

This is AC Anarchy!

7MuT.gif

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Here, here, we are all dying of curiosity.....

Nothing boastful of course, a bit of bull shit to keep us guessing but the odd bit of truth to fight the boredom out here, please!

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Breeze did look light, may be somewhere around 10 knots. Understandable that they want to get a good handle on it before they go out in a blow. Reading the comments it seems it did drop off the foils tacking - probably a combination of the light wind, unfamiliarity, etc. We don't know the control system either, and with only two on board they may lack the manpower to foil through manoeuvers? The positives for me, is that it is foiling upwind with soft sails in lightish winds. Seems a pretty good base to build on, and a good step towards proof of concept.

I am now on the other side of the channel and the comments about the wipe outs came during much stronger wheather with wind between 20 up to 30kts

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Breeze did look light, may be somewhere around 10 knots. Understandable that they want to get a good handle on it before they go out in a blow. Reading the comments it seems it did drop off the foils tacking - probably a combination of the light wind, unfamiliarity, etc. We don't know the control system either, and with only two on board they may lack the manpower to foil through manoeuvers? The positives for me, is that it is foiling upwind with soft sails in lightish winds. Seems a pretty good base to build on, and a good step towards proof of concept.

The measured TWS is given in the text......

 

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Breeze did look light, may be somewhere around 10 knots. Understandable that they want to get a good handle on it before they go out in a blow. Reading the comments it seems it did drop off the foils tacking - probably a combination of the light wind, unfamiliarity, etc. We don't know the control system either, and with only two on board they may lack the manpower to foil through manoeuvers? The positives for me, is that it is foiling upwind with soft sails in lightish winds. Seems a pretty good base to build on, and a good step towards proof of concept.

I've been told by friends ( who work for the company which has done the hydro stuff for most ac teams and now does the ac75 one design foil system) that bar prototype is not manually powered and its control system is actuated both from the boat itself and from the rib.

they told me also that in these august days they are pretty full on finalizing the OD stuff which is going in the 75.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, 17mika said:

they told me also that in these august days they are pretty full on finalizing the OD stuff which is going in the 75.

So this BAR prototype is indeed feeding back to the official development?

Do ETNZ get data or is it kept compartmentalised?

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3 hours ago, 17mika said:

I've been told by friends ( who work for the company which has done the hydro stuff for most ac teams and now does the ac75 one design foil system) that bar prototype is not manually powered and its control system is actuated both from the boat itself and from the rib.

they told me also that in these august days they are pretty full on finalizing the OD stuff which is going in the 75.

 

 

 

So they're controlling the foils from two different boats? Might explain why they can't foil through manoeuvers. Quite possible that they don't really care about that, and are evaluating other parameters?

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7 hours ago, Andraruth said:

I support team US and my good wishes are also for UK team members as well

There's rules around here and using your signature for advertising is, well, not normal. Go ask DryArmour. 

(also not normal: supporting one team and wishing well for another. It's pick your team and "I hope you get syphilis" for the others)

Otherwise, welcome to ACAnarchy.

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5 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

There's rules around here and using your signature for advertising is, well, not normal. Go ask DryArmour. 

(also not normal: supporting one team and wishing well for another. It's pick your team and "I hope you get syphilis" for the others)

Otherwise, welcome to ACAnarchy.

Blocking everyone’s signature works well. :P

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sorry guys I have no big details. it was just a quick chat in front of a beer, take my info with a bit of skepticism :)

Michele

 

 

 

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They were out today in 20kts, foiling tacks and a good wipe out going for a gybe. Looks v fast and stable. Up and sailing again after the wipe out in less than 5 Min. All very slick 

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Wow, some more eyes on the water.

Thank you for your update. I think this will be an amazing America's Cup from a sailing design point of view,

@fergusjack I am very interested in the sail.  Do you think they are using a twin skin sail?

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More eyes yes, not many cameras apparently...

Still, words better than nothing ;)

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11 hours ago, fergusjack said:

They were out today in 20kts, foiling tacks and a good wipe out going for a gybe. Looks v fast and stable. Up and sailing again after the wipe out in less than 5 Min. All very slick 

Thanks, interesting

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12 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Wow, some more eyes on the water.

Thank you for your update. I think this will be an amazing America's Cup from a sailing design point of view,

@fergusjack I am very interested in the sail.  Do you think they are using a twin skin sail?

Twin skin no, they have a standard Diam 24 rig in the boat.  And it should look stable, the autopilot is running 2 axis in roll and heave so they only have fore and aft as manual.    I would lay long odds on the rule getting changed to allow that on the full size versions a well.

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@GBH I think Luna Rosa want to reduce the time foiling.  So maybe COR will not allow any more controls?

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If it is a constant struggle, it might be a pain to watch but some struggle is not bad at all. It allows for the very best to show their skills and talent, then rise to the top. Yes the America's Cup is a design contest but it's also a sailing one. When sailing dinghies, you also have to balance your boat and have a feel for it to extract the most performance. I really like that this aspect could be kept (in a certain measure) in big scale with AC75's and limit the automation.

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when the big bills start to come in and JR has to sell shares, just remember that means he can dump the cash straight into the team without paying capital gains tax and income tax.

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6 hours ago, Lakrass said:

If it is a constant struggle, it might be a pain to watch but some struggle is not bad at all. It allows for the very best to show their skills and talent, then rise to the top. Yes the America's Cup is a design contest but it's also a sailing one. When sailing dinghies, you also have to balance your boat and have a feel for it to extract the most performance. I really like that this aspect could be kept (in a certain measure) in big scale with AC75's and limit the automation.

 

But, and its not a small but either, the supplied PLC will have a random reaction time delay in there so in theory they won't be able to chase the dot on a screen to keep the thing upright and at the best height. This is an unstable system as soon as you fully submerge the foils and say theres a max of ? 1 second or even half that, then it can all go pearshaped in that timespan at those speeds.  One would have to presume that our Kiwi neighbours have already figured a way around that.  Or have they?

Maybe the huge roll and yaw inertia from the ballasted arms will slow things down enough to make it sailable?  But for sure, if it does get away from you then it's beam me up Scotty time.

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4 hours ago, GBH said:

 

But, and its not a small but either, the supplied PLC will have a random reaction time delay in there so in theory they won't be able to chase the dot on a screen to keep the thing upright and at the best height. This is an unstable system as soon as you fully submerge the foils and say theres a max of ? 1 second or even half that, then it can all go pearshaped in that timespan at those speeds.  One would have to presume that our Kiwi neighbours have already figured a way around that.  Or have they?

Maybe the huge roll and yaw inertia from the ballasted arms will slow things down enough to make it sailable?  But for sure, if it does get away from you then it's beam me up Scotty time.

Doesn’t have to be random. Mid level on up PLC’s, which they’ll need anyway have the ability to run the logic in “periodic” routines. Those let you set the scan rate. It’d be super easy to lock down the speed of any auto pilot or assist. 

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Doen't have to be of course not, but that's how it is at the moment.  Trying to get away from the  video game aspect of sailing that they used in the cat

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Test boat being towed out, gets up on both foils at the end.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Speed estimate for up onto foils 5 knots?

Look at the bow wave pre launch - easily 10kts.

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8 hours ago, WetHog said:

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

Aren’t the masts open to be built by the teams? 

 

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1 hour ago, surfsailor said:

Look at the bow wave pre launch - easily 10kts.

Bow-wave a little misleading giving foils providing lift... I'd say faster than 5 - maybe 7ish...

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Just now, rh2600 said:

Bow-wave a little misleading giving foils providing lift... I'd say faster than 5 - maybe 7ish...

I hear ya, but the quant is super lightweight, with a shallow forefoot, and it's already being unweighted by the submerged foil, so I'm thinking higher. Don't get me wrong - 10 kts (or even 12) is still an extremely low take off speed.

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1 hour ago, surfsailor said:

I hear ya, but the quant is super lightweight, with a shallow forefoot, and it's already being unweighted by the submerged foil, so I'm thinking higher. Don't get me wrong - 10 kts (or even 12) is still an extremely low take off speed.

Looks more 10’s

but man those foils must be draggy as look how much thrust the tow boat is putting out to scull drag it out the harbour.

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2 hours ago, AVID said:

Looks more 10’s

but man those foils must be draggy as look how much thrust the tow boat is putting out to scull drag it out the harbour.

Or the tow boat is draggy as when not planing, seems far more likely to me.

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5 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Or the tow boat is draggy as when not planing, seems far more likely to me.

Definitely not in its normal sailing configuration. Towing the quant from the bow pull the front of the boat down making it extra draggy and causing a bit of extra wake. Still difficult to estimate speed accurately. Or should I say even more difficult to predict speed as it is sailing in a particular configuration.

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Is there any little inference we can take about now hard to get up on the foils in an AC75?

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9 hours ago, mad said:

Aren’t the masts open to be built by the teams? 

I thought the D part is Supplied one-design?

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1 hour ago, hoom said:
11 hours ago, mad said:

Aren’t the masts open to be built by the teams? 

I thought the D part is Supplied one-design?

Hoping one of the more knowledgeable here might chime in with a list of what's one-design/fixed supply and what's open for development. 

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9 hours ago, AVID said:

Looks more 10’s

but man those foils must be draggy as look how much thrust the tow boat is putting out to scull drag it out the harbour.

 

“Our in-house simulations confirm what they were predicting,” says Carrau. “Which is it should be able to foil in over 9 knots of true wind — both upwind and downwind.”

So warp speed =?

 

https://www.sailingworld.com/americas-cup-75#page-2

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Class Rule -->   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Lu53sYb6FLhQ3TCxw2uSpPBWXSmw1bmh/view?usp=sharing

 

 

  • Strict limitations on the number of components that can be built including hulls, masts, rudders, foils, and sails, thus encouraging teams to do more R&D in simulation and subsequently less physical construction and testing
  • Supplied foil arms and cant system to save design time and construction costs
  • Supplied rigging
  • One design mast tube

 

 

- The weight of the Foil Arm Stock (a one-design supplied part) is set at 245kg while the Foil Wing and Flaps are at 970kgs. The latter component* and fairings that attach to the Foil Arm are designed and constructed by each team for their boat(s).

*(should be componets - to include both foil wing and flaps, AFAIK)

 

- An total weight of major listed components has been increased by 100kg overall so that the hull, sails, foils, rigging and crew must weigh within a tight range of 7570-7600kgs.

 

- Other changes include a re-write of the mast rule to clarify construction with plans to be supplied by August 31, 2018. The changes appear to be aimed at closing loopholes in the earlier version of the rules. The fundamental concept of the D-shaped mast with two mainsail skins attached to its aft edge is unchanged.

The Rules are incomplete, with a further 15 items to be provided/defined according to a timeline with specific dates against those items in the latest version of the Rule, where those items were just noted and open dated in the first version issued on March 29, 2018.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/207123

 

more...

 

 

related

August 31, 2018: Location of the America’s Cup Match and The PRADA Cup confirmed
August 31, 2018: Specific race course area confirmed

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56 minutes ago, nav said:

Class Rule -->   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Lu53sYb6FLhQ3TCxw2uSpPBWXSmw1bmh/view?usp=sharing

 

 

  • Strict limitations on the number of components that can be built including hulls, masts, rudders, foils, and sails, thus encouraging teams to do more R&D in simulation and subsequently less physical construction and testing
  • Supplied foil arms and cant system to save design time and construction costs
  • Supplied rigging
  • One design mast tube

 

 

- The weight of the Foil Arm Stock (a one-design supplied part) is set at 245kg while the Foil Wing and Flaps are at 970kgs. The latter component* and fairings that attach to the Foil Arm are designed and constructed by each team for their boat(s).

*(should be componets - to include both foil wing and flaps, AFAIK)

 

- An total weight of major listed components has been increased by 100kg overall so that the hull, sails, foils, rigging and crew must weigh within a tight range of 7570-7600kgs.

 

- Other changes include a re-write of the mast rule to clarify construction with plans to be supplied by August 31, 2018. The changes appear to be aimed at closing loopholes in the earlier version of the rules. The fundamental concept of the D-shaped mast with two mainsail skins attached to its aft edge is unchanged.

The Rules are incomplete, with a further 15 items to be provided/defined according to a timeline with specific dates against those items in the latest version of the Rule, where those items were just noted and open dated in the first version issued on March 29, 2018.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/207123

 

more...

 

 

related

August 31, 2018: Location of the America’s Cup Match and The PRADA Cup confirmed
August 31, 2018: Specific race course area confirmed

Thanks Nav

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8 hours ago, nav said:

The Rules are incomplete, with a further 15 items to be provided/defined according to a timeline with specific dates against those items in the latest version of the Rule, where those items were just noted and open dated in the first version issued on March 29, 2018.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/207123

 

related

August 31, 2018: Location of the America’s Cup Match and The PRADA Cup confirmed
August 31, 2018: Specific race course area confirmed

 

^To follow up......here are the  items and the timeline mentioned above taken from the updated rule

34 Dates
34.1 The following items shall be specified no later than the dates specified:
Date Rule Who Item
31/08/2018 20.1 COR/D The mast drawing package.
31/10/2018 12.15, 17.6 COR/D Reserved area for the supplied Media System.
31/10/2018 26.4 Rules Committee Additional constraints on crew indication devices.
31/12/2018 6.13 Rules Committee Material certificates and declaration requirements.
31/12/2018 22.12 Rules Committee Types and positions for pressure relief valves.
31/12/2018 26.6 COR/D Media System details and protocols.
28/02/2019 5.4 Rules Committee Template spreadsheet to track components.
30/06/2019 11.20, 17.7 Rules Committee Measurement procedures for loads tests.
30/06/2019* 28.3 (f) COR/D Media equipment worn by crew.
30/06/2019* 28.6 Rules Committee Crew weighing schedule.
30/06/2019* 30 COR/D Event branding.
30/06/2019* 31.1 Rules Committee Measurement procedures and documentation.
30/11/2019 27.4 Rules Committee FCS usage restrictions.
31/03/2020 8.4 (b) (ii) Rules Committee Last submission of commercial products.
31/08/2020 27.9 Rules Committee FCS system updates frozen.

 

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Keep those conspiracy theories coming TC...:blink:

 

It's covered in the video above if you are really interested, kind of a TBD thing.

But hey yeah this is the AC and yes the COR/D does actually get to decide everything that is not nailed down in the DOG....imagine that.

As far as stirring up trouble over last time/this time, try to remember - it's the intent that counts

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On 8/13/2018 at 2:18 AM, Horn Rock said:

Breeze did look light, may be somewhere around 10 knots. Understandable that they want to get a good handle on it before they go out in a blow. Reading the comments it seems it did drop off the foils tacking - probably a combination of the light wind, unfamiliarity, etc. We don't know the control system either, and with only two on board they may lack the manpower to foil through manoeuvers? The positives for me, is that it is foiling upwind with soft sails in lightish winds. Seems a pretty good base to build on, and a good step towards proof of concept.

Foiling upwind in light ish wind, is much easier than foiling downwind.

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1 hour ago, dachopper said:

Foiling upwind in light ish wind, is much easier than foiling downwind.

Mmm.... once you have apparent wind it's all upwind?

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11 hours ago, dachopper said:

Foiling upwind in light ish wind, is much easier than foiling downwind.

Hmmm, interesting, because that wasn't the case for the AC72's.

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On 8/25/2018 at 7:11 AM, Horn Rock said:

Hmmm, interesting, because that wasn't the case for the AC72's.

The AC72 isn't exactly the best performing foiler around..... They had a takeoff speed of over 22 kts, and did not foil upwind at all for most of the regatta.

 

We shall see..... one thing is for sure, they are not going to foil anything like the current or previous range of cats or even moths.

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^ So carrying the number series from AC35!?

And timed to coincide with the Cowes meeting. Raising the question again about how much if any of their testing is on behalf of the 'group'.

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6 hours ago, nav said:

^ So carrying the number series from AC35!?

And timed to coincide with the Cowes meeting. Raising the question again about how much if any of their testing is on behalf of the 'group'.

BAR are playing this well, getting in early, a lot of the rules are still in the "with feedback from competitors" stage and they are the only ones collecting data and effectively giving feedback, lets them have plenty of influence on the process.

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

BAR are playing this well, getting in early, a lot of the rules are still in the "with feedback from competitors" stage and they are the only ones collecting data and effectively giving feedback, lets them have plenty of influence on the process.

Don't understand the criticism from the front page on the direction of the AC just because the boat capsized? The same stupid criticism could have been applied to man's first attempt at flying. Should we go back to the boring old AC boats of years ago? This is development get over it. 

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A bit too reminiscent of the Orifice Galloping Gertie vids: upbeat music, short shots with visible instabilty cutting out about as shit goes pear-shaped.

And we know that like the Galloping Gertie vids the sequel has been a big wipeout...

 

On the other hand there is an apparently successful foiling tack in there & some decent quality video is better than potato quality.

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Still nice to have a bit of content. Last two cups it felt really long before any interesting picture or video where posted. This one is not the real thing but is the showing the concept on the water instead of an animation. Let's hope they will keep producing (even if I don't expect too much since they will most likely hide the best bits).

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5 hours ago, hoom said:

A bit too reminiscent of the Orifice Galloping Gertie vids: upbeat music, short shots with visible instabilty cutting out about as shit goes pear-shaped.

And we know that like the Galloping Gertie vids the sequel has been a big wipeout...

 

On the other hand there is an apparently successful foiling tack in there & some decent quality video is better than potato quality.

Well I don't know - they appeared to be comfortable with showing the boat crashing off foils in that clip... Which is a pretty transparent offering that you can fuck this up...

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Having just 2 people on board definitely strenghten the rumour that some controls are directly driven from the rib.

 

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23 minutes ago, 17mika said:

Having just 2 people on board definitely strenghten the rumour that some controls are directly driven from the rib.

 

Or automatically done on board.

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It's cool to see the crew safely sitting inside the boat rather than on traps swinging wildly in the air ala super foilers.  The outrigger foils sure provide righting moment.  Foiling tack was cool.

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5 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

It's cool to see the crew safely sitting inside the boat rather than on traps swinging wildly in the air ala super foilers.  The outrigger foils sure provide righting moment.  Foiling tack was cool.

Yep. The foils utilize both hydro-forces and weight (movable ballast) to generate lift and righting moment. That right there is what makes this design so innovative - and so damn radical.

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Is it just me looks like it would murder a cat..! The beam of a cat would only get in the way. When this thing is up and running show me the numbers the angles to the wind will be much narrower IMO. 

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Does anyone believe the Team Sched/HQ in Portsmouth can hold a 75-footer?

m2302_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_14690210916BAA (1).jpeg

or will the INEOS TEAM UK 1st Race Boat to be launched around 31st March next year be built in a different Facility?

That HQ looks quite small to me to get a 75-footer inside. What do you think?

I’m sure Ben will be able to hit the boss up for some more cash. 

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

That HQ looks quite small to me to get a 75-footer inside. What do you think?

Thats sarcasm right? <_<

Thats a fucking massive building which housed like 6* AC45s or how ever many they had last time.

 

Google Earth says its over 60m each way so if it doesn't have plenty of room for at least 2 they done fucked it up somehow :wacko:

By comparison the ETNZ tents for the 75' cat & wings were about 30*22m and 45*22m respectively.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Still, I think that HQ in Portsmouth is too small. 

Ever seen it? No, it isn't too small. "Small" is not the word that comes to the lips of the beholders.

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For those that the BBC doesn't block here is the new BAR on BBC South Today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sailing/45377666

 

Interesting to note the new team owner gives Big Ben about 20 seconds, before taking over the piece. And then commits to maximum funding.

Is the Cup coming home?

 

 

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