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Kaihoe

Ehman claims TNZ Cheating

355 posts in this topic

If they can turn this radio communication on or off at any time then how does anyone know when it's being used?

 

Honest question, think i saw it addressed deep in the AC RRS somewhere.

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It's pretty evident that ETNZ don't need a big bag of dirty tricks they use to win.

 

It was Oracle that got torn a new one for not telling the truth to the IJ.

 

You just knew that TE would start chucking his toys.

 

I am told they also claimed the official spectator boat was too close.

 

If they gag that guy GGYC could come out the other side of this with their reputation intact.

 

If he gets a bit of momentum they'll just look like losers.

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If they can turn this radio communication on or off at any time then how does anyone know when it's being used?

 

Honest question, think i saw it addressed deep in the AC RRS somewhere.

 

When I go offshore how does anyone know if I'm on the phone getting advice from ashore?

 

If the sailing instructions say I can only use publically accessible information but I use a subscription weather service who knows?

 

It's a common question that comes up quite regularly in the long format.

 

It is an area that relies on the integrity of competitors.

 

It would be a bold move to use outside assistance when everything you say and do is recorded.

 

I'd be pissed if someone suggested that I cheated during races and I'd insist they substantiate their statement or apologise.

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If they can turn this radio communication on or off at any time then how does anyone know when it's being used?

 

Honest question, think i saw it addressed deep in the AC RRS somewhere.

It would be a bold move to use outside assistance when everything you say and do is recorded.

.

Good point, conversations to people off the boat would likely be obvious.

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Not all human brains operate correctly ...sometimes the wires get a little crossed and there is an occasional short circuit...

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If they can turn this radio communication on or off at any time then how does anyone know when it's being used?

 

Honest question, think i saw it addressed deep in the AC RRS somewhere.

 

If so, it's a valid question to be asked of both teams, not just ETNZ. From the article:

 

 

Race director Iain Murray said he had conducted an inquiry about communications and had sought clarification. He said the communications systems were available to both teams, that they had to be switched off before the start of a race, and could only be switched on again after a race was finished.

“We don’t believe they have been cheating at all,” said Murray.

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If they can turn this radio communication on or off at any time then how does anyone know when it's being used?

Honest question, think i saw it addressed deep in the AC RRS somewhere.

I don't suppose the tv would have picked up on it, surprising as you constantly rave about the 'on boat comms'

As you don't sail and are a rabid supporter of ehmans team, you wouldn't know anything about the code of ethics most sailors have when racing...

No surprise you are the first one to support your 'insider snake oil salesman'...

How was the team gear he supplied this year?

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This seems baseless too me. I'm surprised that there has not been a protest over TNZ running a 3 boat campaign. After the LV finals, TNZ gave foils to LR to use for two boat testing. Seems to cross a line somehow.

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failed with the IJ

 

so he's gone to the media

 

every cycle

 

your respect for some people grows

 

but for others falls

 

imho he's preparing his position next to eb

 

and the lowest level of ac hell

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How sad... wasn't someone also claiming Oracle were looking back to their chase boat during an upwind leg last week occasion during races to receive hand signals from whoever was there with the latest incoming wind info or something?

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What the hell is wrong with this guy?

Ehman has a lot to lose if Larry loses the cup, the sugar daddy he has milked for years will lose interest in the AC and GGYC, and no other team in the AC would voluntarily choose to be associated with Ehman.

 

He's desperate, just as he was with the trespassing protest, to the point that he is an embarrassment to Oracle. It's time he STFU.

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What the hell is wrong with this guy?

Ehman has a lot to lose if Larry loses the cup, the sugar daddy he has milked for years will lose interest in the AC and GGYC, and no other team in the AC would voluntarily choose to be associated with Ehman.

 

He's desperate, just as he was with the trespassing protest, to the point that he is an embarrassment to Oracle. It's time he STFU.

Nailed it

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failed with the IJ

 

so he's gone to the media

If you read the actual article, it clearly states " No protest had been lodged with the international jury."

 

There's little in any of it for facts and this is not even a quote but it's apparently at the heart of whatever TE raised to IM:

 

"Tom Ehman, vice commodore of the club and director of external affairs for the Americas Cup Event Authority said that the New Zealanders had a system of radio communication between the support boat and the New Zealand tactician Ray Davies which the Oracle team does not have."

 

My honest question remains: How does anyone know if it's turned on; know if or when RD has 'eagle eyes'? Is there really no way of knowing for certain? Does it come down to 'integrity'?

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^ Nope, looks like TE's question only went to IM.

'Pics or it didn't happen' is right, there's nothing in that article to prove that RD actually is receiving off-yacht communications. Without anything, all that TE can ask is a negative, 'How do we know they aren't using the system.'

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My guess is Tom is just stirring the pot to create some scandal/controversy, which has been lacking since the finals started.

 

Besides, would the AC be without it?

 

Its for the benefit of the punters and to get people to start threads like this one. :lol:

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(TE)"said that the New Zealanders had a system of radio communication between the support boat and the New Zealand tactician Ray Davies which the Oracle team does not have."

 

I wonder how OR knows this? Seems like something that would be closely held by ETNZ.

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^ Nope, looks like TE's question only went to IM.

'Pics or it didn't happen' is right, there's nothing in that article to prove that RD actually is receiving off-yacht communications. Without anything, all that TE can ask is a negative, 'How do we know they aren't using the system.'

In a reference to a famous accusation made by Stars and Stripes skipper Dennis Conner against the New Zealanders in 1986 in Fremantle, Ehman said “why would you if you didn’t want to”. Conner had asked why the New Zealanders would have built their 12-metre yacht in fibreglass (when all the others were being built in aluminium) if they didn’t want to cheat. Asked if he knew what he was saying, Ehman replied: “Yes.”

Most events that allow communication also require that the teams or coaches report the frequencies they will use. The RC needs to know about any conflicts and it provides the RO with a way to contact a coach if needed. It is a very simple matter to monitor that frequency and not any usage during the race. It is dead simple to know if the radio was used during racing.

 

If TE had proof he would be filing with the IJ. Calling TNZ cheaters is crass.

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Was TE a witness in the kingpost debacle?

 

Kind of funny that DDR ends up protecting TE from involvement by being completely without credibility in the jury room.

 

And then TE follows DDR down the same path.

 

This cup was lost by the idiots at the top!

 

GGyc should call TE to the carpet!

 

Impeachment is the best option.

 

Or GGyc becomes complicit.

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"Tom Ehman, vice commodore of the club and director of external affairs for the Americas Cup Event Authority said that the New Zealanders had a system of radio communication between the support boat and the New Zealand tactician Ray Davies wherein they are discussing logistics surrounding the fully-subsidized piss-up for anarchists at Golden Gate Yacht Club."

 

"As vice commodore of the club and director of external affairs for the Americas Cup Event Authority Mr. Ehman considers it is his duty to lay on a boisterous event for anarchists who abandoned work places, families and other obligations in all parts of the world to come to San Francisco to witness the evisceration of Comrade Ellison and his gold medal sailing team".

 

"Details are currently withheld because, being a working-mans yacht club, Golden Gate does not have adequate storage facilities for umbrellas or taniwha. While the chances of rain are remote, leading anarchists are prone to take taniwha to free piss-ups."

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^ Nope, looks like TE's question only went to IM.

'Pics or it didn't happen' is right, there's nothing in that article to prove that RD actually is receiving off-yacht communications. Without anything, all that TE can ask is a negative, 'How do we know they aren't using the system.'

>In a reference to a famous accusation made by Stars and Stripes skipper Dennis Conner against the New Zealanders in 1986 in Fremantle, Ehman said “why would you if you didn’t want to”. Conner had asked why the New Zealanders would have built their 12-metre yacht in fibreglass (when all the others were being built in aluminium) if they didn’t want to cheat. Asked if he knew what he was saying, Ehman replied: “Yes.”

Most events that allow communication also require that the teams or coaches report the frequencies they will use. The RC needs to know about any conflicts and it provides the RO with a way to contact a coach if needed. It is a very simple matter to monitor that frequency and not any usage during the race. It is dead simple to know if the radio was used during racing.

 

If TE had proof he would be filing with the IJ. Calling TNZ cheaters is crass.

 

 

If he had any proof, then he would already have ETNZ in front of the jury.

If ETNZ were doing this, they deserve to forfeit the match, but lets be honest: who is more credible? ETNZ or Ehman.

 

Rather than doing that, he is trying to blacken the name of the only team NOT found guilty of cheating through rumour and innuendo.

The guy is an utter disgrace and should be kept as far away from any sporting endeavour as possible.

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your slow

 

I posted this 1 1/2 hours before you started new thread - on whats wrong with oracakle thread - your welcome

 

MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

Posted Yesterday, 10:07 PM

snapback.png

America's Cup: Ehman raises question of radio communication in ...The IndependentA veiled accusation of cheating has been made against the New Zealand challenger for theAmerica's Cup by a senior member of event organiser and the ...

“We don’t believe they have been cheating at all,” said Murray.

Ehman’s complaint was sent in writing to the New Zealand rules adviser, Russell Green, who replied that the team had not been cheating in any way and specifically not in employing outside assistance. No protest had been lodged with the international jury.

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This looks basically like Tom Ehman acting as a proxy of Oracle Racing here. It's been done deliberately via him so it can be made to look as if it didn't come from Oracle directly, which it most likely did*, because that would attract nasty backlash and negative PR.

 

(*Seriously, who is in a better position to view the on-boat goings-on during racing - OR and their chase boat people, or Ehman who is watching it on TV?)

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From the same pool of filth that Dennis Connor is from so no surprise.

 

There are some humans who walk amongst us who are mere dog turds.

And you would be one of them.

 

Have you ever put yourself on the line for your country - team - or beliefs and then been in a situation where you had to make a big call, or defend your position.

 

Wankers like you, make piss poor statements about people without knowing the full story or ever being in a situation that is difficult.

 

The biggest decisions wankers like you make is weather to get out of bed.

 

 

Dennis Conner has forgotten more than you will ever know about decision making and big calls and He has put team and country ahead of his own image on many occasion. And ...

 

He never left his country and slutted around the world like some.

 

Don,t bag DC when you are a mere pimple on the arsehole of life North Korea!...

 

 

Unless you can back it up and give examples of your life and experiences where you had to make a big call....other than wiping your own arse.... which you probably failed at. Then don't comment on people you don't know and situations you don't understand.

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If he had any proof, then he would already have ETNZ in front of the jury.

If ETNZ were doing this, they deserve to forfeit the match, but lets be honest: who is more credible? ETNZ or Ehman.

.

Agree, there is no proof the radio is getting turned on. The closest suggestion that he has it is in this article line:

 

Asked if he knew what he was saying, Ehman replied: "Yes."

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From the same pool of filth that Dennis Connor is from so no surprise.

 

There are some humans who walk amongst us who are mere dog turds.

And you would be one of them.

 

Have you ever put yourself on the line for your country - team - or beliefs and then been in a situation where you had to make a big call, or defend your position.

 

Wankers like you, make piss poor statements about people without knowing the full story or ever being in a situation that is difficult.

 

The biggest decisions wankers like you make is weather to get out of bed.

 

 

Dennis Conner has forgotten more than you will ever know about decision making and big calls and He has put team and country ahead of his own image on many occasion. And ...

 

He never left his country and slutted around the world like some.

 

Don,t bag DC when you are a mere pimple on the arsehole of life North Korea!...

 

 

Unless you can back it up and give examples of your life and experiences where you had to make a big call....other than wiping your own arse.... which you probably failed at. Then don't comment on people you don't know and situations you don't understand.

He he he, the battle of the trolls

 

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If this was true then it would be picked up by any dude with a $300 scanner working the frequencies designated for comms.

 

TE is no fool. What he is doing is trying to grab ETNZ,s attention away from the ball.

 

Great strategy employed by a team desperate to upset a team with a fast boat.

 

But really is just a big nothing... unless ETNZ fall for it?

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^ Nope, looks like TE's question only went to IM.

'Pics or it didn't happen' is right, there's nothing in that article to prove that RD actually is receiving off-yacht communications. Without anything, all that TE can ask is a negative, 'How do we know they aren't using the system.'

 

OR should be careful how far they push this given (based on what I've heard from multiple well-connected sources) the same could be asked about OR's foil control system.

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Most events that allow communication also require that the teams or coaches report the frequencies they will use. The RC needs to know about any conflicts and it provides the RO with a way to contact a coach if needed. It is a very simple matter to monitor that frequency and not any usage during the race. It is dead simple to know if the radio was used during racing.

 

While I think the accusation is ludicrous, we are technically a heck of a long way past knowing a frequency being sufficient to monitor radio transmissions. Once you start using spread-spectrum techniques with a frequency-hopping schedule synchronized between the transmitter and receiver but unknown to 3rd parties, it's basically impossible to monitor or even detect. Especially if it's one-way to the boat, so the equipment on the boat never transmits. And then add encryption onto that.

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Who iz more credibel ? Ehman or . . . Stingray ? #

 

 

I cannot now look at sumthing ascribed to eether wun without feeling the same faynt

 

sensayshun of mownting norzeea, and this thred iz, for me, the last stror.

 

 

#

or woud that be like asking "whitsh iz mor helthy ? Arsenick or Syanide ?

 

or - (and this only just poppt into my hed) :

 

 

iz it lyk asking "whitsh iz mor helthy ? Arsenick or Arsenick ?")

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Most events that allow communication also require that the teams or coaches report the frequencies they will use. The RC needs to know about any conflicts and it provides the RO with a way to contact a coach if needed. It is a very simple matter to monitor that frequency and not any usage during the race. It is dead simple to know if the radio was used during racing.

 

While I think the accusation is ludicrous, we are technically a heck of a long way past knowing a frequency being sufficient to monitor radio transmissions. Once you start using spread-spectrum techniques with a frequency-hopping schedule synchronized between the transmitter and receiver but unknown to 3rd parties, it's basically impossible to monitor or even detect. Especially if it's one-way to the boat, so the equipment on the boat never transmits. And then add encryption onto that.

 

Whilst that might be true, there are cameras trained on the teams the whole time.

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Most events that allow communication also require that the teams or coaches report the frequencies they will use. The RC needs to know about any conflicts and it provides the RO with a way to contact a coach if needed. It is a very simple matter to monitor that frequency and not any usage during the race. It is dead simple to know if the radio was used during racing.

 

While I think the accusation is ludicrous, we are technically a heck of a long way past knowing a frequency being sufficient to monitor radio transmissions. Once you start using spread-spectrum techniques with a frequency-hopping schedule synchronized between the transmitter and receiver but unknown to 3rd parties, it's basically impossible to monitor or even detect. Especially if it's one-way to the boat, so the equipment on the boat never transmits. And then add encryption onto that.

Any such equipment found during the regatta would be a DSQ. Part of the requirement to report/register all comms with the RC is so the RC can monitor usage. If there was a suspicion and the RC found equipment as you describe your sailors just lost some races with DSQs.

 

Just to avoid the possibility of what you describe I would hope that the equipment on the boats is monitored on a daily basis. The system in question seems to be available to both teams if I read IM's statement correctly.

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Most events that allow communication also require that the teams or coaches report the frequencies they will use. The RC needs to know about any conflicts and it provides the RO with a way to contact a coach if needed. It is a very simple matter to monitor that frequency and not any usage during the race. It is dead simple to know if the radio was used during racing.

While I think the accusation is ludicrous, we are technically a heck of a long way past knowing a frequency being sufficient to monitor radio transmissions. Once you start using spread-spectrum techniques with a frequency-hopping schedule synchronized between the transmitter and receiver but unknown to 3rd parties, it's basically impossible to monitor or even detect. Especially if it's one-way to the boat, so the equipment on the boat never transmits. And then add encryption onto that.

I can assure you, as can your own guys at Waihopai, that what you claim is utter and complete bullshit.

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Most events that allow communication also require that the teams or coaches report the frequencies they will use. The RC needs to know about any conflicts and it provides the RO with a way to contact a coach if needed. It is a very simple matter to monitor that frequency and not any usage during the race. It is dead simple to know if the radio was used during racing.

 

While I think the accusation is ludicrous, we are technically a heck of a long way past knowing a frequency being sufficient to monitor radio transmissions. Once you start using spread-spectrum techniques with a frequency-hopping schedule synchronized between the transmitter and receiver but unknown to 3rd parties, it's basically impossible to monitor or even detect. Especially if it's one-way to the boat, so the equipment on the boat never transmits. And then add encryption onto that.

Any such equipment found during the regatta would be a DSQ. Part of the requirement to report/register all comms with the RC is so the RC can monitor usage. If there was a suspicion and the RC found equipment as you describe your sailors just lost some races with DSQs.

 

Just to avoid the possibility of what you describe I would hope that the equipment on the boats is monitored on a daily basis. The system in question seems to be available to both teams if I read IM's statement correctly.

 

Actually Randy, I have to disagree with you.

Any team (including ETNZ) engaging in this sort of activity should not lose some races but rather be DSQ'ed from the whole damned event.

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Most events that allow communication also require that the teams or coaches report the frequencies they will use. The RC needs to know about any conflicts and it provides the RO with a way to contact a coach if needed. It is a very simple matter to monitor that frequency and not any usage during the race. It is dead simple to know if the radio was used during racing.

 

While I think the accusation is ludicrous, we are technically a heck of a long way past knowing a frequency being sufficient to monitor radio transmissions. Once you start using spread-spectrum techniques with a frequency-hopping schedule synchronized between the transmitter and receiver but unknown to 3rd parties, it's basically impossible to monitor or even detect. Especially if it's one-way to the boat, so the equipment on the boat never transmits. And then add encryption onto that.

Any such equipment found during the regatta would be a DSQ. Part of the requirement to report/register all comms with the RC is so the RC can monitor usage. If there was a suspicion and the RC found equipment as you describe your sailors just lost some races with DSQs.

 

Just to avoid the possibility of what you describe I would hope that the equipment on the boats is monitored on a daily basis. The system in question seems to be available to both teams if I read IM's statement correctly.

 

Actually Randy, I have to disagree with you.

Any team (including ETNZ) engaging in this sort of activity should not lose some races but rather be DSQ'ed from the whole damned event.

Absolutely agree. which is why I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to try it.

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Maybe somebody heard something during a race, and TE asked the ETNZ guy about it. If it were me I would also note it to the RD and let them see if there is anything to it, which sounds like the case here.

 

IM found nothing and the matter is over.

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From the same pool of filth that Dennis Connor is from so no surprise.

 

There are some humans who walk amongst us who are mere dog turds.

And you would be one of them.

 

Have you ever put yourself on the line for your country - team - or beliefs and then been in a situation where you had to make a big call, or defend your position.

 

Wankers like you, make piss poor statements about people without knowing the full story or ever being in a situation that is difficult.

 

The biggest decisions wankers like you make is weather to get out of bed.

 

 

Dennis Conner has forgotten more than you will ever know about decision making and big calls and He has put team and country ahead of his own image on many occasion. And ...

 

He never left his country and slutted around the world like some.

 

Don,t bag DC when you are a mere pimple on the arsehole of life North Korea!...

 

 

Unless you can back it up and give examples of your life and experiences where you had to make a big call....other than wiping your own arse.... which you probably failed at. Then don't comment on people you don't know and situations you don't understand.

 

 

Hey tosspot, its wether not weather.

Perhaps you should get an edumacation instead of trolling forums noobzilla

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Maybe somebody heard something during a race, and TE asked the ETNZ guy about it. If it were me I would also note it to the RD and let them see if there is anything to it, which sounds like the case here.

 

IM found nothing and the matter is over.

If TE knew that why would he mention the radio to the press at all? Why would he say anything to the press until he had an answer out of IM? Smacks of low class cheap shot to me.

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Hey Kim Sung Il, learn how to spell in English before you start correcting people. Whether.

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Maybe somebody heard something during a race, and TE asked the ETNZ guy about it. If it were me I would also note it to the RD and let them see if there is anything to it, which sounds like the case here.

 

IM found nothing and the matter is over.

If TE knew that why would he mention the radio to the press at all? Why would he say anything to the press until he had an answer out of IM? Smacks of low class cheap shot to me.

yup - exactly.

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Maybe somebody heard something during a race, and TE asked the ETNZ guy about it. If it were me I would also note it to the RD and let them see if there is anything to it, which sounds like the case here.

 

IM found nothing and the matter is over.

If TE knew that why would he mention the radio to the press at all? Why would he say anything to the press until he had an answer out of IM? Smacks of low class cheap shot to me.

 

Somebody heard about it, asked a question, and he answered it? Did he reach-out to the press?

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From the same pool of filth that Dennis Connor is from so no surprise.

 

There are some humans who walk amongst us who are mere dog turds.

And you would be one of them.

Have you ever put yourself on the line for your country - team - or beliefs and then been in a situation where you had to make a big call, or defend your position.

Wankers like you, make piss poor statements about people without knowing the full story or ever being in a situation that is difficult.

The biggest decisions wankers like you make is weather to get out of bed.

Dennis Conner has forgotten more than you will ever know about decision making and big calls and He has put team and country ahead of his own image on many occasion. And ...

He never left his country and slutted around the world like some.

Don,t bag DC when you are a mere pimple on the arsehole of life North Korea!...

Unless you can back it up and give examples of your life and experiences where you had to make a big call....other than wiping your own arse.... which you probably failed at. Then don't comment on people you don't know and situations you don't understand.

 

Hey tosspot, its wether not weather.

Perhaps you should get an edumacation instead of trolling forums noobzilla

Yip as predicted! No logical or intellectual reply. Just expletives and play the spelling card to hide any understanding of the discussion.

 

You reply reflects your intelligence

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^^ RHough This is new to me so I am asking questions, not sure of the background on this one.

 

I don't think that we would hear of everything that the teams may ask of IM.

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Hey, Ehman. Put up...or STFU.

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This is said without an agenda. Please explain the following in the abandoned race on Saturday (from memory):

  • RC abandons race due to wind limit just after the bottom mark
  • RC tries to call TNZ on radio - assume this is the radio the tactician has - I think it may be a handheld VHF - no answer or change on board - TV shows them oblivious to the radio calls
  • After several tries RC asks 'Kiwi Chase' (or was it 'Kiwi Support') to contact the boat
  • Very shortly afterwards Kiwis take foot off the gas and abandon the race (after crossing Oracle nicely)

Did they hear the call from the RC and decide to keep going anyway (a valid move)? Or did the support boat communicate to them via the 'crew radio'? Or did they come along side and make funny radio gestures?

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This is said without an agenda. Please explain the following in the abandoned race on Saturday (from memory):

  • RC abandons race due to wind limit just after the bottom mark
  • RC tries to call TNZ on radio - assume this is the radio the tactician has - I think it may be a handheld VHF - no answer or change on board - TV shows them oblivious to the radio calls
  • After several tries RC asks 'Kiwi Chase' (or was it 'Kiwi Support') to contact the boat
  • Very shortly afterwards Kiwis take foot off the gas and abandon the race (after crossing Oracle nicely)

Did they hear the call from the RC and decide to keep going anyway (a valid move)? Or did the support boat communicate to them via the 'crew radio'? Or did they come along side and make funny radio gestures?

The RC contacted both boats, and eventually got a reply from both boats. Was on the PA, at Marina Green.

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This is said without an agenda. Please explain the following in the abandoned race on Saturday (from memory):

  • RC abandons race due to wind limit just after the bottom mark
  • RC tries to call TNZ on radio - assume this is the radio the tactician has - I think it may be a handheld VHF - no answer or change on board - TV shows them oblivious to the radio calls
  • After several tries RC asks 'Kiwi Chase' (or was it 'Kiwi Support') to contact the boat
  • Very shortly afterwards Kiwis take foot off the gas and abandon the race (after crossing Oracle nicely)

Did they hear the call from the RC and decide to keep going anyway (a valid move)? Or did the support boat communicate to them via the 'crew radio'? Or did they come along side and make funny radio gestures?

The RC contacted both boats, and eventually got a reply from both boats. Was on the PA, at Marina Green.

That is not the way it looked on youtube. Have a look at the video

 

Emirites chase says "I will speak to them on the comms now"

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When ETNZ dug their bows in and lost guys overboard they were radioing to see if they were ok. I believe it was IM and other officials that replied not the ETNZ support folk. Radios were not on?

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It has been my experience that many boats that don't expect external contact don't have their radios on. It looks to me that TNZ had their internal comm channel active and not the RC channel. In fact it is likely that they never changed from their team working channel from before the race.

 

When the RC contacts the TNZ support boat the logical thing to try is to call the boat on the last active channel. Failing that you drive up and do a derka derka mohammed jihad to get the boats attention and get them to switch channel to talk to the RC

 

I don't see anything out of line here.

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(TE)"said that the New Zealanders had a system of radio communication between the support boat and the New Zealand tactician Ray Davies which the Oracle team does not have."

 

I wonder how OR knows this? Seems like something that would be closely held by ETNZ.

 

IMO it's understandable that the Oracle team has no comms system between the ETNZ support boat and Ray Davies. WTF is the issue? ;)

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This is said without an agenda. Please explain the following in the abandoned race on Saturday (from memory):

  • RC abandons race due to wind limit just after the bottom mark
  • RC tries to call TNZ on radio - assume this is the radio the tactician has - I think it may be a handheld VHF - no answer or change on board - TV shows them oblivious to the radio calls
  • After several tries RC asks 'Kiwi Chase' (or was it 'Kiwi Support') to contact the boat
  • Very shortly afterwards Kiwis take foot off the gas and abandon the race (after crossing Oracle nicely)

Did they hear the call from the RC and decide to keep going anyway (a valid move)? Or did the support boat communicate to them via the 'crew radio'? Or did they come along side and make funny radio gestures?

ETNZ Chase1 is on receive only. In the near-pp when ETNZ lost 2 men men overboard, they had to call Harold Bennet to route message to Chase1.

 

The only relevant issue here is there is one team proven to have cheated, and it's not ETNZ.

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This is said without an agenda. Please explain the following in the abandoned race on Saturday (from memory):

  • RC abandons race due to wind limit just after the bottom mark
  • RC tries to call TNZ on radio - assume this is the radio the tactician has - I think it may be a handheld VHF - no answer or change on board - TV shows them oblivious to the radio calls
  • After several tries RC asks 'Kiwi Chase' (or was it 'Kiwi Support') to contact the boat
  • Very shortly afterwards Kiwis take foot off the gas and abandon the race (after crossing Oracle nicely)

Did they hear the call from the RC and decide to keep going anyway (a valid move)? Or did the support boat communicate to them via the 'crew radio'? Or did they come along side and make funny radio gestures?

:D:D love how people can see a situation, obfuscate the reality to suit the version of the story they're trying to tell.

 

ETNZ and Or were sailing at 30 knots, or close to it. Have you heard how loud it is on deck on those boats when they're going that fast? The guys on board could barely hear anything as was demonstrated perfectly just the other day when Ben Ainslie was interviewed while the boat was foiling after a race. He was concentrating on the interview and could barely even hear what was being asked. Now, imagine how easy it would be to miss an initial hail when you're talking to the crew and grinding.

 

Regardless, the video shows ETNZ being hailed and the long wait for an acknowledgement... by your logic Oracle did the same since we don't hear their correspondence either. The boats eventually both abandon the race within a very short time-span difference.

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This is said without an agenda. Please explain the following in the abandoned race on Saturday (from memory):

  • RC abandons race due to wind limit just after the bottom mark
  • RC tries to call TNZ on radio - assume this is the radio the tactician has - I think it may be a handheld VHF - no answer or change on board - TV shows them oblivious to the radio calls
  • After several tries RC asks 'Kiwi Chase' (or was it 'Kiwi Support') to contact the boat
  • Very shortly afterwards Kiwis take foot off the gas and abandon the race (after crossing Oracle nicely)

Did they hear the call from the RC and decide to keep going anyway (a valid move)? Or did the support boat communicate to them via the 'crew radio'? Or did they come along side and make funny radio gestures?

ETNZ Chase1 is on receive only. In the near-pp when ETNZ lost 2 men men overboard, they had to call Harold Bennet to route message to Chase1.

 

The only relevant issue here is there is one team proven to have cheated, and it's not ETNZ.

A ha! So you admit TNZ is cheating, it's just not proved yet!

 

:ph34r:

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This is said without an agenda. Please explain the following in the abandoned race on Saturday (from memory):

  • RC abandons race due to wind limit just after the bottom mark
  • RC tries to call TNZ on radio - assume this is the radio the tactician has - I think it may be a handheld VHF - no answer or change on board - TV shows them oblivious to the radio calls
  • After several tries RC asks 'Kiwi Chase' (or was it 'Kiwi Support') to contact the boat
  • Very shortly afterwards Kiwis take foot off the gas and abandon the race (after crossing Oracle nicely)

Did they hear the call from the RC and decide to keep going anyway (a valid move)? Or did the support boat communicate to them via the 'crew radio'? Or did they come along side and make funny radio gestures?

:D:D love how people can see a situation, obfuscate the reality to suit the version of the story they're trying to tell.

 

ETNZ and Or were sailing at 30 knots, or close to it. Have you heard how loud it is on deck on those boats when they're going that fast? The guys on board could barely hear anything as was demonstrated perfectly just the other day when Ben Ainslie was interviewed while the boat was foiling after a race. He was concentrating on the interview and could barely even hear what was being asked. Now, imagine how easy it would be to miss an initial hail when you're talking to the crew and grinding.

Ummm Bob, think you misundertood the post. Can you please go and have a look at the youtube footage (

). It pretty clearly shows the support boat telling the RC that they will call the ETNZ on the internal comms. That is all I am basing these posts on.

 

I have not read the protocol, but based on this thread (!) it appears that any communication systems between the support team and the boat needs to be switched off for the race.

 

I would suggest it is very very difficult to hear a handheld VHF in those conditions (and not sure if RD was even holding it). But quite easy to hear (I imagine) on the internal comms mounted inside their helmets.

 

I really don't care how long it took them to answer the radio call from the RC - it would be a very low priority. My point is that it was interesting that the support boat relayed a message from the RC to the boat.

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From the same article

 

“We don’t believe they have been cheating at all,” said Murray.

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grasping at straws, shot in the dark, downright offensive...I'm sure Dennis Conner felt the same way when NZ made a similar (exact?) claim.

 

If entirely BS, no problem, just a low road taken by a known douchebag.

 

If true, DSQ and Oracle will be one race away.

 

Oracle did immediately acknowledge that call on the water, then kept going. ENTZ did ignore the fuck out of it until their support boat talked to them doesn't really mean anything in itself nor does chatter on the boat unless they really lost their damn minds. I seriously doubt ENTZ was cheating, with the regatta lead especially.

 

No way they are using the handheld VHF this isn't a beer can race, seriously? Please tell me they aren't!

 

One can buy motorcyclist intended comms for a couple hundred bucks, that boat isn't louder than a Harley going eighty.

 

More likely in my completely uneducated opinion, ENTZ switched off comms when the race was called, prior to responding.

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This is said without an agenda. Please explain the following in the abandoned race on Saturday (from memory):

  • RC abandons race due to wind limit just after the bottom mark
  • RC tries to call TNZ on radio - assume this is the radio the tactician has - I think it may be a handheld VHF - no answer or change on board - TV shows them oblivious to the radio calls
  • After several tries RC asks 'Kiwi Chase' (or was it 'Kiwi Support') to contact the boat
  • Very shortly afterwards Kiwis take foot off the gas and abandon the race (after crossing Oracle nicely)

Did they hear the call from the RC and decide to keep going anyway (a valid move)? Or did the support boat communicate to them via the 'crew radio'? Or did they come along side and make funny radio gestures?

:D:D love how people can see a situation, obfuscate the reality to suit the version of the story they're trying to tell.

 

ETNZ and Or were sailing at 30 knots, or close to it. Have you heard how loud it is on deck on those boats when they're going that fast? The guys on board could barely hear anything as was demonstrated perfectly just the other day when Ben Ainslie was interviewed while the boat was foiling after a race. He was concentrating on the interview and could barely even hear what was being asked. Now, imagine how easy it would be to miss an initial hail when you're talking to the crew and grinding.

Ummm Bob, think you misundertood the post. Can you please go and have a look at the youtube footage (

). It pretty clearly shows the support boat telling the RC that they will call the ETNZ on the internal comms. That is all I am basing these posts on.

 

I have not read the protocol, but based on this thread (!) it appears that any communication systems between the support team and the boat needs to be switched off for the race.

 

I would suggest it is very very difficult to hear a handheld VHF in those conditions (and not sure if RD was even holding it). But quite easy to hear (I imagine) on the internal comms mounted inside their helmets.

 

I really don't care how long it took them to answer the radio call from the RC - it would be a very low priority. My point is that it was interesting that the support boat relayed a message from the RC to the boat.

race was already abandoned

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Ummm Bob, think you misundertood the post. Can you please go and have a look at the youtube footage (

). It pretty clearly shows the support boat telling the RC that they will call the ETNZ on the internal comms. That is all I am basing these posts on.

 

 

I have not read the protocol, but based on this thread (!) it appears that any communication systems between the support team and the boat needs to be switched off for the race.

 

I would suggest it is very very difficult to hear a handheld VHF in those conditions (and not sure if RD was even holding it). But quite easy to hear (I imagine) on the internal comms mounted inside their helmets.

 

I really don't care how long it took them to answer the radio call from the RC - it would be a very low priority. My point is that it was interesting that the support boat relayed a message from the RC to the boat.

 

Maybe you should take the time to read the Protocol, the RRSAC and check out the Safety Rules for AC34 that were adopted after the Artemis crash.

 

3.8. One Way Communications: One-way communications permitted from AC72

yacht to chase boat during all sailing and racing operations.

 

i.e the chase boat can be in 'receive mode' and not transmit.

 

If ORTUSA are complaining about TNZ having a compliant Safety System then maybe ORTUSA are not in compliance with the Safety Rules.

 

By the way the race had already been abandoned when the RC contacted the TNZ chase boat to relay the message.

 

Back in August in the LV final against LR TNZ had an issue where they lost all hydraulics and were drifting towards the Golden Gate Bridge. The AC72 tried to contact the TNZ chase boat but they did not respond and TNZ relayed a message via the RC to the chase boat and shore crew climbed on the boat and replaced the battery. TNZ were DSQed and the RC filed a procedural protest http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN100.pdf

 

From that protest

 

10. RG submitted in mitigation that ETNZ suffered a sudden failure of all hydraulic

systems on the approach to the windward mark. Dean Barker (skipper of the

ETNZ AC72) immediately called the ETNZ chase boat. He received no response, as the chase boat

was deliberately on ‘receive only’. He then made

an emergency call to Assistant Principal Race Officer Harold Bennett.

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Ummm Bob, think you misundertood the post. Can you please go and have a look at the youtube footage (

). It pretty clearly shows the support boat telling the RC that they will call the ETNZ on the internal comms. That is all I am basing these posts on.

 

 

I have not read the protocol, but based on this thread (!) it appears that any communication systems between the support team and the boat needs to be switched off for the race.

 

I would suggest it is very very difficult to hear a handheld VHF in those conditions (and not sure if RD was even holding it). But quite easy to hear (I imagine) on the internal comms mounted inside their helmets.

 

I really don't care how long it took them to answer the radio call from the RC - it would be a very low priority. My point is that it was interesting that the support boat relayed a message from the RC to the boat.

 

Maybe you should take the time to read the Protocol, the RRSAC and check out the Safety Rules for AC34 that were adopted after the Artemis crash.

 

>3.8. One Way Communications: One-way communications permitted from AC72

yacht to chase boat during all sailing and racing operations.

 

i.e the chase boat can be in 'receive mode' and not transmit.

 

If ORTUSA are complaining about TNZ having a compliant Safety System then maybe ORTUSA are not in compliance with the Safety Rules.

 

By the way the race had already been abandoned when the RC contacted the TNZ chase boat to relay the message.

 

Back in August in the LV final against LR TNZ had an issue where they lost all hydraulics and were drifting towards the Golden Gate Bridge. The AC72 tried to contact the TNZ chase boat but they did not respond and TNZ relayed a message via the RC to the chase boat and shore crew climbed on the boat and replaced the battery. TNZ were DSQed and the RC filed a procedural protest http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN100.pdf

 

From that protest

 

10. RG submitted in mitigation that ETNZ suffered a sudden failure of all hydraulic

systems on the approach to the windward mark. Dean Barker (skipper of the

ETNZ AC72) immediately called the ETNZ chase boat. He received no response, as the chase boat

was deliberately on ‘receive only’. He then made

an emergency call to Assistant Principal Race Officer Harold Bennett.

 

 

OK, got it - tha sounds like a sensible explanation. Chase boat was in receive only, then when RC could not get in touch, they enabled comms and called the boat over the internal system (seperate to the VHF that the Tactician has). No probs as RC had asked them to get in touch and race was abandoned. Thanks for explaining. I assume there is some way that the RC can tell when the chase boat go from recieve-only to transciever mode on the private comms.

 

I saw RD with a handheld ?VHF? before a prestart early on. I saw JK with a unit mounted on his shoulder when they played their postponment card.

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From the same article

 

“We don’t believe they have been cheating at all,” said Murray.

That was an outrageous comment by Murray. Ehman did not use the word "cheating". But Murray has deliberately tried to link it to cheating - I hope ETNZ lodges a protest against Murray under Protocol 60 and get his fat corrupt arse fined by the Jury.

 

And RHough, there is only one team in AC34 penalised for cheating - you're smart enough to work it out which team it was. And probably still doing it with it's unbelievable performance improvement onvernight.

 

Must be a cultural thang...

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From the same pool of filth that Dennis Connor is from so no surprise.

 

There are some humans who walk amongst us who are mere dog turds.

On behalf of dogs, I wish to protest. I have a nice dog with not a bad bone in his body, therefore his turds are probably nice too ;)

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Maybe the great alphabet soup of paranoia can eavesdrop with some of their satellites to check if this is occurring.

 

Tosser Extraordinaire is going down for the third time and grasping at anything he can.

 

Will someone toss him a kingpost :lol:

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grasping at straws, shot in the dark, downright offensive...I'm sure Dennis Conner felt the same way when NZ made a similar (exact?) claim.

 

If entirely BS, no problem, just a low road taken by a known douchebag.

 

If true, DSQ and Oracle will be one race away.

 

Oracle did immediately acknowledge that call on the water, then kept going. ENTZ did ignore the fuck out of it until their support boat talked to them doesn't really mean anything in itself nor does chatter on the boat unless they really lost their damn minds. I seriously doubt ENTZ was cheating, with the regatta lead especially.

 

No way they are using the handheld VHF this isn't a beer can race, seriously? Please tell me they aren't!

 

One can buy motorcyclist intended comms for a couple hundred bucks, that boat isn't louder than a Harley going eighty.

 

More likely in my completely uneducated opinion, ENTZ switched off comms when the race was called, prior to responding.

They aren't using handhelds they have helmet speakers.

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From the same article

 

We dont believe they have been cheating at all, said Murray.

That was an outrageous comment by Murray. Ehman did not use the word "cheating". But Murray has deliberately tried to link it to cheating - I hope ETNZ lodges a protest against Murray under Protocol 60 and get his fat corrupt arse fined by the Jury.

 

And RHough, there is only one team in AC34 penalised for cheating - you're smart enough to work it out which team it was. And probably still doing it with it's unbelievable performance improvement onvernight.

 

Must be a cultural thang...

Did dalton shut down the base the other day to all but need to know people?

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They aren't using handhelds they have helmet speakers.

The ACRM radios are handportables, I believe.

TBH, in this day and age ACRM should provide a comms 'black box' radio that provides everything that is needed, and remains under their control - like the F1 ECU's.

Seems daft for a number of teams to develop the same functionality.

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Wouldn't it make complete sense if the Chase boats were privy to communications from their respective boats? If a crewmember sustained a serious injury, or the boat suffered a serious failure, if the chase boat and the specialists on board had an idea what's going on, they can act accordingly immediately. It wouldn't be smart if the crew knew the rig was going to fall down and the chase boat inadvertently put themselves in a position where the rig could land on them. Good communication could avoid that.

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^ Nope, looks like TE's question only went to IM.

'Pics or it didn't happen' is right, there's nothing in that article to prove that RD actually is receiving off-yacht communications. Without anything, all that TE can ask is a negative, 'How do we know they aren't using the system.'

 

OR should be careful how far they push this given (based on what I've heard from multiple well-connected sources) the same could be asked about OR's foil control system.

Also ....four wings any one.....the silly bit is they are all the same!!

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What the hell is wrong with this guy?

Ehman has a lot to lose if Larry loses the cup, the sugar daddy he has milked for years will lose interest in the AC and GGYC, and no other team in the AC would voluntarily choose to be associated with Ehman.

 

He's desperate, just as he was with the trespassing protest, to the point that he is an embarrassment to Oracle. It's time he STFU.

You are absolutely right .... Ehman has for years been surviving on Oracle ( LE ) interest in AC. If LE loses and quits the AC, Ehman is out of a job !!!! But you would think he made enough money by now not to resort to such tactics !!!

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From the same article

 

“We don’t believe they have been cheating at all,” said Murray.

That was an outrageous comment by Murray. Ehman did not use the word "cheating". But Murray has deliberately tried to link it to cheating - I hope ETNZ lodges a protest against Murray under Protocol 60 and get his fat corrupt arse fined by the Jury.

 

And RHough, there is only one team in AC34 penalised for cheating - you're smart enough to work it out which team it was. And probably still doing it with it's unbelievable performance improvement onvernight.

 

Must be a cultural thang...

 

So Murray defends ETNZ from Ehman's innuendo and he should be protested?

 

Besides, OTUSA's increased performance upwind (at the cast of reaching speed) can be explained rationally by higher winds (as in race 4), more practice for tacks and ebb tide which makes the upwind leg more open.

 

Get a grip.

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Its not a radio communication. Maybe GD been signing this to JS / Oracle Chase boat a bit too often. Sign language is an official language in NZ.

 

 

 

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From the same article

 

“We don’t believe they have been cheating at all,” said Murray.

That was an outrageous comment by Murray. Ehman did not use the word "cheating". But Murray has deliberately tried to link it to cheating - I hope ETNZ lodges a protest against Murray under Protocol 60 and get his fat corrupt arse fined by the Jury.

 

And RHough, there is only one team in AC34 penalised for cheating - you're smart enough to work it out which team it was. And probably still doing it with it's unbelievable performance improvement onvernight.

 

Must be a cultural thang...

The way I read the article TE knew he was saying NZ was cheating without using the word. For IM to cut through the crap and say they don't believe NZ were cheating rather highlights that TE was talking trash.

 

And you know I was having you on about NZ.

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In NZ cheating is worse than losing. So there's no way ETNZ would risk being crucified at home for being caught. Losing? We'd be gutted, cheating we'd shake our heads in embarrassment and disown the team.

 

I can't speak for the USA but ever since the underarm incident we've seen Australia's discomfort with losing forcing them to do questionable things.

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What the hell is wrong with this guy?

 

He suffers from whiny little biatch syndrome. He has a history of this sort of thing.

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Even more fucked up than at first glance..

 

So TE only knew about the radio use at exactly the same time we all did, I.e. When the ETNZ chase boat was specifically asked to contact NZL5 by the RD, whose own attempted communication using the 'Race radio' set up, had failed to attract any attention.

 

Couldn't have been much more public or more legit - but TE tried to make is sound like subterfuge - sad fucker!

 

No Jury Notice yet, but get ready for Case 37 folks.

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This is pretty much last straw. There are a bunch of good folk in TO but if anyone deserves to lose the Cup and get lifetime bans it is TE, LE, RC, and GGYC.

 

If you were Larry, would you be asking for resignations about now? If I was a GGYC member I'd be demanding a recall.

 

The problem is that any action the IJ takes will be contested in court and LE has shown a willingness to spend stupid amounts of money on lawyers.

 

Go Team NZ - There is no I in just beat the fuckers.

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all he is doing is galvanising NZ's resolve

 

And you don't think filing a protest over this doesn't galvanize Larry's resolve and give further reason to open his checkbook for legal defense?

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What the hell was he thinking? Looks like ETNZ is taking this one to the jury! What do you think is going to happen? More rule 60 trouble for the defender?

 

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all he is doing is galvanising NZ's resolve

 

And you don't think filing a protest over this doesn't galvanize Larry's resolve and give further reason to open his checkbook for legal defense?

 

 

Larry should cut him loose he's a disgrace

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America's Cup: Kiwis take official's cheating claim to Cup jury

By Paul Lewis

5:30 AM Tuesday Sep 17, 2013

Emirates Team New Zealand are taking action against Golden Gate Yacht Club vice-commodore Tom Ehman under the same regulations that saw the America's Cup international jury penalise Oracle Team USA two points in the cheating saga.

Ehman made his own veiled claims of cheating to a journalist from the Independent in London. But Team NZ have rejected the claim and were preparing an application to the jury under the same Article 60 of the protocol (bringing the Cup into disrepute) and Rule 69 of the rules of sailing (gross misconduct) as were taken against Oracle

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/paul-lewis/news/article.cfm?a_id=181&objectid=11125598

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America’s Cup: Kiwis take official’s cheating claim to Cup jury

 

- See more at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2013/09/16/americas-cup-kiwis-take-officials-cheating-claim-cup-jury/#sthash.KTJ22W6s.dpuf

 

 

(September 16, 2013) – Emirates Team New Zealand are taking action against Golden Gate Yacht Club vice-commodore Tom Ehman under the same regulations that saw the America’s Cup international jury penalise Oracle Team USA two points in the cheating saga - See more at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2013/09/16/americas-cup-kiwis-take-officials-cheating-claim-cup-jury/#sthash.KTJ22W6s.dpuf

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This is pretty much last straw. There are a bunch of good folk in TO but if anyone deserves to lose the Cup and get lifetime bans it is TE, LE, RC, and GGYC.

 

If you were Larry, would you be asking for resignations about now? If I was a GGYC member I'd be demanding a recall.

 

The problem is that any action the IJ takes will be contested in court and LE has shown a willingness to spend stupid amounts of money on lawyers.

 

Go Team NZ - There is no I in just beat the fuckers.

 

Randy....I'm perlplexed by your multiple positions on all this. On one hand you say the Kiwi's should thank Larry for making this event something they could participate in. You seem to lament the loss of big bad swinging dick contest, and all that comes with it.

 

And you have taken a position on CHEATING for boats not involved in any way for the America's Cup with draconian penalties, all because there was a lack of management oversite - but where there is absolutely nothing in any rule that talks about management oversite as being part and parcel with any single rule in the sport, particularly that could lead to the loss of points in a regatta where the prior event had nothing to do with this event. Ok...Oracle tried to tie the ACWS to the LVC for business purposes, and it has come back to bite them in the ass...but seriously...you are usually a black and white four corners of the document type of guy, so absent any codification anywhere of "management oversite" you are now ready to hang the guys who stopped Erne$to from totally fucking with the sport all because some random employee did something stupid to practice boats? And now because Ehman is reported to have said something to one reporter? Even if he did say that, aren't we all taking this "bringing the sport into disrepute" just a bit too far? Talk about mandating blandess? If this rule had existed back in the day Blackaller would have been tossed out before he ever sailed a race, and Turned would have been hung from a club flag pole.

 

I'm sure you'll have a well thought out response, and I'll look forward to hearing it.

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all he is doing is galvanising NZ's resolve

 

And you don't think filing a protest over this doesn't galvanize Larry's resolve and give further reason to open his checkbook for legal defense?

I think that getting quoted in the press accusing the other team of cheating rather than going through the protest process would be the end of your career with me. If TE/GGYC/Oracle think the charge has legs, there is a process. If TE already knew IM's response and went public anyway I don't think GGYC/Larry/Oracle would be please to have his association.

 

This ugly side of LE/TE/GGYC was glimpsed during AC33 but largely ignored here due to overwhelming anti Ernesto/Alinghi emotion. I was embarrassed then and I'm embarrassed now. I don't know who it was that said the inmates are running the asylum but that is the way it looks from my corner.

 

In most professions Jimmies Tweet would have required an apology as would Tom's comments in the media. Either a I never said that defamation charge or an apology.

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America’s Cup: Kiwis take official’s cheating claim to Cup jury

 

- See more at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2013/09/16/americas-cup-kiwis-take-officials-cheating-claim-cup-jury/#sthash.KTJ22W6s.dpuf

 

 

(September 16, 2013) – Emirates Team New Zealand are taking action against Golden Gate Yacht Club vice-commodore Tom Ehman under the same regulations that saw the America’s Cup international jury penalise Oracle Team USA two points in the cheating saga - See more at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2013/09/16/americas-cup-kiwis-take-officials-cheating-claim-cup-jury/#sthash.KTJ22W6s.dpuf

 

 

Love this. Ehman you big asshole, I hope that the jury hears this, calls you, and calls the reporter from the London Independent.

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What the hell was he thinking? Looks like ETNZ is taking this one to the jury! What do you think is going to happen? More rule 60 trouble for the defender?

 

 

Seems everythjing connected to both Oracle and the Golden Gate Yacht Club is rotten to the core.

 

Still defies logic how anyone can support either.

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I don't know who it was that said the inmates are running the asylum but that is the way it looks from my corner.

 

Wasn't it Brad Butterworth when he was asked on the broadcast?

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Ehman is going to get his just desserts from the Jury, and he can thank his flunky Murray for putting him in it. Ehman the lawyer was smart enough to insinuate it without actually saying the word because he knew he'd be liable for a lawsuit outside the protection of the Protocol. But his flunky Murray had to go and shove his big feet in his mouth with the comment: "We don't believe they're cheating".

 

Good on ETNZ for not taking this crap lying down. You can only turn the other cheek so much...

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This is pretty much last straw. There are a bunch of good folk in TO but if anyone deserves to lose the Cup and get lifetime bans it is TE, LE, RC, and GGYC.

 

If you were Larry, would you be asking for resignations about now? If I was a GGYC member I'd be demanding a recall.

 

The problem is that any action the IJ takes will be contested in court and LE has shown a willingness to spend stupid amounts of money on lawyers.

 

Go Team NZ - There is no I in just beat the fuckers.

 

Randy....I'm perlplexed by your multiple positions on all this. On one hand you say the Kiwi's should thank Larry for making this event something they could participate in. You seem to lament the loss of big bad swinging dick contest, and all that comes with it.

 

And you have taken a position on CHEATING for boats not involved in any way for the America's Cup with draconian penalties, all because there was a lack of management oversite - but where there is absolutely nothing in any rule that talks about management oversite as being part and parcel with any single rule in the sport, particularly that could lead to the loss of points in a regatta where the prior event had nothing to do with this event. Ok...Oracle tried to tie the ACWS to the LVC for business purposes, and it has come back to bite them in the ass...but seriously...you are usually a black and white four corners of the document type of guy, so absent any codification anywhere of "management oversite" you are now ready to hang the guys who stopped Erne$to from totally fucking with the sport all because some random employee did something stupid to practice boats? And now because Ehman is reported to have said something to one reporter? Even if he did say that, aren't we all taking this "bringing the sport into disrepute" just a bit too far? Talk about mandating blandess? If this rule had existed back in the day Blackaller would have been tossed out before he ever sailed a race, and Turned would have been hung from a club flag pole.

 

I'm sure you'll have a well thought out response, and I'll look forward to hearing it.

Sadly no. I don't have a well thought out response. What I am is tired of being guilty by passport. I don't live where everybody I meet thinks the USA is perfect and their shit don't stink. I live where when people find out that I have a US passport they ask "How did you guys elect a moron twice?" (Talking about GWB).

 

As you implied I am a black and white kind of guy. I don't see a problem thanking LE and RC for making AC33 happen in a pretty spectacular way. I don't think I dissed them for failures beyond their control (global economy etc). However they didn't need to cheat to get here. I don't see anyone totally fucking outraged that Team Oracle usa didn't very publicly distance themselves from everyone involved. AFAIK Dirk is still employed. I know for a fact that they didn't even check to see if MM could be on the boat during competition before they just did it.

 

My joy at seeing a great new face of the AC is ruined knowing that a gang of unrepentant cheaters are behind it.

 

I have tried very hard to set aside my negative opinion of LE based on non-sailing events and experience. There is a professional standard at Oracle of win at all costs. The stories Simon N tells and his dislike for Oracle are supported by people I know. Oracle get busted by accident when they are preparing boats for Red Bull ... Is it really credible that someone at or near Russell's level knew nothing? Is it a reflection of a "Not cheating if we don't get caught" mentality? When Russell announced that Oracle was returning the titles and trophies why didn't say who got fired at the same time? Has anyone at Oracle expressed anything like "We're sorry, this is an entirely inappropriate way for an organization that purports to represent the USA to conduct itself. Everyone that we have been able to identify as involved with, or had knowledge of, or responsibility for these actions has been terminated from the Oracle Organization. As CEO I bear ultimate responsibility for this and for ensuring that Team Oracle USA does not bring the reputation of American sports into disrepute. Thus I have offered my resignation also."

 

The attitude that some people find baffling is holding the leaders responsible. Look how long Lance Armstrong hung on to the idea that never failing a drug test was the same as not cheating. Look at Pete Rose getting banned for gambling after he retired (how convenient) and now there are people that want to see him in the hall of fame. With examples like this is it hard to deny that there is a tolerance for cheating in US sports. ARod gets caught doping, is it credible the Yankees were not aware? ARod gets caught doping. He gets a suspension, the Yankees get to play on. ARod is suing MLB for leaking that he was cheating. Up until the Oracle fall from grace I could say, "Well there may be a culture that accepts cheating, but not in my sport." Well guess what; Oracle just shattered my little bubble of denial and I'm not fucking happy about it. Sorry to point this out, but when you ask for anyone to point to a rule that holds management accountable ... really? Do we need a rule to tell us that if our child cheats on exams after seeing us cheat on income tax that we should be surprised? Really? There doesn't need to be a rule that a team caught cheating should be banned from sport. The world sees is a rapist in Montana getting a 30 day sentence until the judge realized that he was breaking a law to do it. The world sees 'Americans' calling their own Miss America an Arab and a terrorist because she is not white. The world sees headlines "Oracle caught cheating" and Larry doesn't fire anyone (that we know of).

 

I think the support of DDR and the completely unrepentant attitude shown by LE, RC and JS makes OTusa unworthy of anyone's support. This is not about the two race penalty being right or wrong, it should be about why OTusa is allowed to sail at all.

 

There that is as well thought out as I can be. The credit for the good of AC34 does not begin to offset people with oracle gear getting called cheating yanks. Cheating Yanks is poor sportsmanship from ETNZ fans for sure ,,, but you can't stand and say "My team didn't cheat."

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You're not a lawyer then Peter Hater?

 

Cause there's nothing here about oversight right?

 

60. PROTECTING THE REPUTATION OF THE AMERICA’S CUP
60.1. The favorable reputation of the America’s Cup, its regattas, events, selected venues,
Officials, sponsors, commercial partners and its Competitors is a valuable asset and
creates financial and other tangible and intangible benefits for all. Accordingly, each
Competitor
shall not (and shall use its best efforts to ensure that any team member, owner,
officer, employee, contractor, affiliate, agent or representative of the Competitor shall not)

and each Official shall not make or cause to be made, or authorize or endorse, any public
statement, or engage in any other act or conduct or any activity, in each case, on or off the
water, that is prejudicial or detrimental to or against the welfare or the best interests of the
America’s Cup, or the sport of sailing, or that may impair public confidence in the honest
and orderly conduct of the America’s Cup, any Event, or in the integrity and good character
of any Competitor, Official, selected venue, sponsor or other commercial partner of the
America’s Cup. Conduct contrary to the welfare or the best interests of the America’s Cup
includes, but is not limited to, public statements that unreasonably attack or disparage a
regatta related to the America’s Cup, an Event, a selected venue, a funder, a sponsor, a
commercial partner of the Event or a Competitor, another Competitor, an Official, or the
Page 40 of 43
11 Apr 13
commercial viability or integrity of the America’s Cup or any of its regattas or events, but
responsible expressions of legitimate disagreement are not prohibited.
60.2. The Jury is authorized to discipline or otherwise penalize any Competitor (including any
team member, owner, officer, employee, contractor, affiliate, agent or representative of the
Competitor) or Official found by the Jury to have breached or violated Article 60.1 of this
Protocol. The Jury may initiate its own enquiry into any breach or violation of Article 60.1,
or may act upon receiving a report or complaint by or on behalf of any Competitor or an
Official. The Jury may impose such penalties or orders as it believes to be just and
equitable in accordance with this Protocol, including but not limited to those penalties set
forth in Article 15.4(d). Any fines imposed by the Jury for breach of Article 60.1 shall be
paid as may be directed by the Jury as it determines to be just and equitable.
60.3. All defined terms used in this Article 60 shall have the meanings given to them in this
Protocol, with the addition, for the purposes of this Article 60 only, of the following:
(a) the definition of “Competitor” in Article 1.1(p) includes the yacht club holding the
America’s Cup; and
(b] the definition of “Officials” in Article 1.1(mm) includes the Event Authority and ACRM
and their respective officers, employees, contractors, representatives and agents.

0.5 mins research

 

.... all because there was a lack of management oversite (sic) - but where there is absolutely nothing in any rule that talks about management oversite (sic) as being part and parcel with any single rule in the sport,

 

....so absent any codification anywhere of "management oversite (sic)"

 

 

:lol: :lol:

Ya Wally....

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