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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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ghostrider50

Multihull's allowed in pittwater to coffs race

228 posts in this topic

Great News. I tried for years but only had success with MHYC (Sydney-Mooloolaba 1995) and RSYS (Sydney-Southport a couple of times).

I could be interested if TT is found to be suitable (hasn't been offshore yet) and if we can get some others (Indian Chief, Voodoo Spirit, Quickstep, Two Up, Lukim Yu, Big Bird, Nusa Dua, Morticia, Countess, anyone from Qld, Vic, SA?

 

Immediate hurdles for me: Cat 2, hf radio, life raft, first aid certs, safety and survival certs.

Not impossible, just hurdles.

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Sean will likely enter Team Australia.

 

He will sprint back from Hobart (having arrived before WOXI) to be on the start line is my guess

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Sean will likely enter Team Australia.

 

He will sprint back from Hobart (having arrived before WOXI) to be on the start line is my guess

I reckon Sean will pass WOXI off Eden, going in opposite directions.

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I doubt any of those boats have an HF radio.Dont need one for the Hobart ,if your wild oats that is.B2G does not need one and that is cat 2.

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I doubt any of those boats have an HF radio.Dont need one for the Hobart ,if your wild oats that is.B2G does not need one and that is cat 2.

HF is an anachronism in 2013, esp when we consider yellow brick.

But it is in the SI's.

Perhaps we can lobby to have it removed, and liferafts for multis.

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When I did my sea sea safety course I mentioned the life raft thing with multis and the come back was "what about fire" fair comment I guess.

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When I did my sea sea safety course I mentioned the life raft thing with multis and the come back was "what about fire" fair comment I guess.

Fair comment? I don't think so. I'd like to see figures on the frequency of fires causing resort to a liferaft on Cat 2 racing multihulls, or monohulls for that matter. Liferafts are for sinking, overwhelmingly!

And the causes of the fire?

Perhaps specify if you don't have gas cooking you don't need a liferaft. Gas is the only cause I have heard of for serious fires on boats (except for the petrol inboards).

And why cat 2 anyway? IMO it should be a Cat 3 race.

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I do hope that anyone who wants to enter will just get on with complying with the race requirements rather than seeking to suggest multihulls are somehow a special breed.

 

We have complained about the mainstream races not accepting multi's now here one is inviting entries just get on and comply with good grace.

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I do hope that anyone who wants to enter will just get on with complying with the race requirements rather than seeking to suggest multihulls are somehow a special breed.

 

We have complained about the mainstream races not accepting multi's now here one is inviting entries just get on and comply with good grace.

DtM - I totally agree with you I started this topic to raise a bit of interest in the race, cat 2 is not a great hurdle to make to do an offshore race.

 

I note the thing about HF radios and I also think it is a thing of the past now with satellite comms being the way they are, I will raise this with the race committee. Life rafts on the other hand I think should be there.

 

Yes Team Australia is going to do the race! we are also just about to go over to NZ for the coastal classic to hopefully beat up Vodafone.

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I do hope that anyone who wants to enter will just get on with complying with the race requirements rather than seeking to suggest multihulls are somehow a special breed.

 

We have complained about the mainstream races not accepting multi's now here one is inviting entries just get on and comply with good grace.

DtM - I totally agree with you I started this topic to raise a bit of interest in the race, cat 2 is not a great hurdle to make to do an offshore race.

 

I note the thing about HF radios and I also think it is a thing of the past now with satellite comms being the way they are, I will raise this with the race committee. Life rafts on the other hand I think should be there.ne.

 

YA Cat 2 allow for either HF or VHF radio. AFAIK liferafts can be hired ~$200/week for a 4 man.

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I do hope that anyone who wants to enter will just get on with complying with the race requirements rather than seeking to suggest multihulls are somehow a special breed.

 

We have complained about the mainstream races not accepting multi's now here one is inviting entries just get on and comply with good grace.

Totally agree cat 2 is not that hard to do

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I do hope that anyone who wants to enter will just get on with complying with the race requirements rather than seeking to suggest multihulls are somehow a special breed.

 

We have complained about the mainstream races not accepting multi's now here one is inviting entries just get on and comply with good grace.

DtM - I totally agree with you I started this topic to raise a bit of interest in the race, cat 2 is not a great hurdle to make to do an offshore race.

 

I note the thing about HF radios and I also think it is a thing of the past now with satellite comms being the way they are, I will raise this with the race committee. Life rafts on the other hand I think should be there.ne.

 

YA Cat 2 allow for either HF or VHF radio. AFAIK liferafts can be hired ~$200/week for a 4 man.

NOR specifies HF. NOR specifies minimum 5 crew so at least a 6 person life raft is needed

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I do hope that anyone who wants to enter will just get on with complying with the race requirements rather than seeking to suggest multihulls are somehow a special breed.

 

We have complained about the mainstream races not accepting multi's now here one is inviting entries just get on and comply with good grace.

Multihulls are a special breed - non sinkers - don't need liferafts.

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"Yes Team Australia is going to do the race! we are also just about to go over to NZ for the coastal classic to hopefully beat up Vodafone."

Good Luck. Hope you do beat Vodafone and set another record.

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I do hope that anyone who wants to enter will just get on with complying with the race requirements rather than seeking to suggest multihulls are somehow a special breed.

 

We have complained about the mainstream races not accepting multi's now here one is inviting entries just get on and comply with good grace.

Totally agree cat 2 is not that hard to do

I don't agree. I have been there before Cat 2, Cat 1, even SSAA Cat 1 (it was harder than AYF/IYRU Cat1 back then) and it was very hard to do. Maybe if you have plenty of cash its not that hard but back then as now I was on a very tight budget.

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I'm pretty sure that VHF is allowed. I haven't read the NOR but I'm positive yachts have gone up in years past without HF.

 

The issues I'm thinking of is with the engine. Permanently installed (outboard allowed??) metal fuel tanks permanently installed etc. etc.

 

That said, I'd think about it next summer, not this one though. RPA is my home club so plenty of people are saying I should go.

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I'm pretty sure that VHF is allowed. I haven't read the NOR but I'm positive yachts have gone up in years past without HF.

 

The issues I'm thinking of is with the engine. Permanently installed (outboard allowed??) metal fuel tanks permanently installed etc. etc.

 

That said, I'd think about it next summer, not this one though. RPA is my home club so plenty of people are saying I should go.

It's definitely in the NOR. I'll check on the engine.

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Nothing in NOR about engine so YA Cat 2 applies. Outboard allowed for Multihulls. Manuf fuel tank ok must be secured on deck.

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Nothing in NOR about engine so YA Cat 2 applies. Outboard allowed for Multihulls. Manuf fuel tank ok must be secured on deck.

 

Nothing in NOR about engine so YA Cat 2 applies. Outboard allowed for Multihulls. Manuf fuel tank ok must be secured on deck.

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With regards to the radio requirements, I was thinking about 3.25.1(ii) which is the bit about if there were VHF stations along the course (which there is) then VHF would be OK but the NOR, in the last chapter, specifically requires HF frequencies that the boat must be capable of transmitting and receiving.

 

Therefore, I'm out. Not playing the HF game...

 

P.S. Maybe I'll cruise up and do the inshore part of the regatta.

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With regards to the radio requirements, I was thinking about 3.25.1(ii) which is the bit about if there were VHF stations along the course (which there is) then VHF would be OK but the NOR, in the last chapter, specifically requires HF frequencies that the boat must be capable of transmitting and receiving.

 

Therefore, I'm out. Not playing the HF game...

 

P.S. Maybe I'll cruise up and do the inshore part of the regatta.

don't despair Jethrow. I won't play the HF game again unless somebody sponsors it. But I am confident that Sean will get it dropped.

I have been trying to put an entry in today but having trouble with TopYacht.

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"Yes Team Australia is going to do the race! we are also just about to go over to NZ for the coastal classic to hopefully beat up Vodafone."

Good Luck. Hope you do beat Vodafone and set another record.

 

sounds good

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With regards to the radio requirements, I was thinking about 3.25.1(ii) which is the bit about if there were VHF stations along the course (which there is) then VHF would be OK but the NOR, in the last chapter, specifically requires HF frequencies that the boat must be capable of transmitting and receiving.

 

Therefore, I'm out. Not playing the HF game...

 

P.S. Maybe I'll cruise up and do the inshore part of the regatta.

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Standard ISAF OSR category regulations are a bit different for monos vs multis regarding engines. IIRC multis up to a certain size can use outboards even for Cat1 races. You can download versions of the OSR specific to your boat type and Category from the ISAF website. Of course for some silly reason individual races persist in adding antiquated/misguided amendments. HF in these days of GPS trackers and sat phones is ridiculous especially considering that they are relatively pricey and tricky to setup if you only need it for a race or two each year. Liferafts aren't so bad I suppose because you can rent them, assuming your crew knows how to use one.

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My entry is in, I haven't paid yet, have till December to get the rest of the info (crew details, Cat 2 cert, Liferaft serial no. etc) and to pay.

Now who else is coming?

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I do hope that anyone who wants to enter will just get on with complying with the race requirements rather than seeking to suggest multihulls are somehow a special breed.

 

We have complained about the mainstream races not accepting multi's now here one is inviting entries just get on and comply with good grace.

Multihulls are a special breed - non sinkers - don't need liferafts.

 

Fully agree with you Paul.

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Anyone else entered yet? Lets get em in ( it cost you nothing) to show we are interested. Even if you have doubts, enter now, you can always withdraw later.

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I do hope that anyone who wants to enter will just get on with complying with the race requirements rather than seeking to suggest multihulls are somehow a special breed.

 

We have complained about the mainstream races not accepting multi's now here one is inviting entries just get on and comply with good grace.

Multihulls are a special breed - non sinkers - don't need liferafts.

 

Fully agree with you Paul.

 

How would D Flawless' crew have fared without a raft?

 

BTW how many monos have needed a raft in the B-G, S2H and other races multis do?

 

And finally, how come multis, which often have more windage than a mono, get away with being allowed to do Cat 2 with outboards? I swapped from a diesel to an outboard and I'm sure that the boat is safer overall.

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I think having a raft is more valid than a HF ( i'm not saying one should be required specifically for this race ) but once you're upside down there is not much your HF will be able to do for you.The use of liferafts has changed, the old way of thinking ' you must only step up into the liferaft' is gone. The coroner is going to wonder why you didn't evacute your crew into a purpose built inflatable rescue device with food, water, shelter, EPIRB etc before it was too dark to realise the painter was coming loose, or before Johny steps through the net cutting his leg open and bleeds to death, before fatigue, dehydration and hunger set in, before Johny got swept away in some swell. THESE ARE NOT MY VIEWS but that's the way it is now.

 

Regarding the outboard question: It sucks a lot of 25-30 foot mono's can't enter small coastal races with an outboard, but I can see where they are coming from, i'd rather be motoring with outboards on a multi than a mono in any sea.

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It's great that more offshore races are opening up to multis. And I definitely don't want to put anyone off entering (I'll be entering if I can work out how to fit it in between regattas :) ), but I guess I'm a little concerned the difficulties of achieving Cat 2 might be underestimated by some. Having set up Peccadillo for Cat 2, I can speak from experience!

 

There are over 200 points in the new YA Special Regs that relate to Cat 2 (and that's not counting the medical kit!). Many are easy, some are not, but all have to be achieved. So its not just the big things (liferafts, HF, etc) but also lots of little things. And these add up in cost and especially in time. Not all the big things are bolt-ons or can be hired either. In particular, the new requirements for floatation may require structural modifications for some boats, as might the escape hatch requirements and emergency steering. And if you don't have a production boat built to a current engineering or design standard (anyone racing a production multi offshore here? - I suspect not), the requirements about construction standards are onerous.

 

Asking for exemptions won't work - that's the whole point of the rules, everyone has to comply. A quick look at the Special Regs makes it obvious that there is an emphasis on redundancy in safety systems, so saying a liferaft is generally not needed on a multi won't cut any ice, as there are situations where one could be needed. Not likely I agree, but that's not the point. The monos will be just as loaded with stuff that mostly would not be used in any single situation.

 

Don't be put off - it is doable. And if we don't get some boats getting up to category, then all our efforts to get into offshore races will come to nothing, so we need to start to build the offshore multi fleet. But do be aware of the task ahead to achieve it.

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Great post Pecc.

 

From little acorns do great oak trees grow.

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Peccadillo

Thanks for the interesting post.

I will address many of the points as soon as I have a moment but meantime I urge you to enter ASAP. You can enter online and don't have to pay until December. Entering now will encourage other multihull owners to enter and will encourage RPAYC in their enlightened move to offer a Multihull Division. I missed a call today from Lisa at RPAYC about my entry. I don't know what our conversation will be about but I expect they will need at least 5 entries for the division to be a goer.

So, even if it turns out that you can't fit it in between regattas you can withdraw your entry when time comes to pay.

Entering now would be the best thing you could do for offshore multihull racing in Australia.

This of course applies equally to all the offshore capable multihull owners reding this.

Let's get these entries in and show RPAYC that they have taken a step into the future.

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If a National Multihull body was formed affiliated with YA we would have a say in these regulations.A bunch of blokes "communicating" is a start but has no teeth.

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What about a multihull division of YA? Be heard from day one. Credibility from day one. Avoids numerous associations being formed fighting each other.

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What about a multihull division of YA? Be heard from day one. Credibility from day one. Avoids numerous associations being formed fighting each other.

Good Idea. We had something like that once I remember. Lock was part of an advisory group to the AYF.

There was a time when multihulls were not mentioned in the blue book. Then a time when we had our own set of "special Regulations', then we were assimilated into the monohull rules with only notes on the difference.

 

It's great that more offshore races are opening up to multis. And I definitely don't want to put anyone off entering (I'll be entering if I can work out how to fit it in between regattas :) ), but I guess I'm a little concerned the difficulties of achieving Cat 2 might be underestimated by some. Having set up Peccadillo for Cat 2, I can speak from experience!

 

There are over 200 points in the new YA Special Regs that relate to Cat 2 (and that's not counting the medical kit!). Many are easy, some are not, but all have to be achieved. So its not just the big things (liferafts, HF, etc) but also lots of little things. And these add up in cost and especially in time. Not all the big things are bolt-ons or can be hired either. In particular, the new requirements for floatation may require structural modifications for some boats, as might the escape hatch requirements and emergency steering. And if you don't have a production boat built to a current engineering or design standard (anyone racing a production multi offshore here? - I suspect not), the requirements about construction standards are onerous.

 

Asking for exemptions won't work - that's the whole point of the rules, everyone has to comply. A quick look at the Special Regs makes it obvious that there is an emphasis on redundancy in safety systems, so saying a liferaft is generally not needed on a multi won't cut any ice, as there are situations where one could be needed. Not likely I agree, but that's not the point. The monos will be just as loaded with stuff that mostly would not be used in any single situation.

 

Don't be put off - it is doable. And if we don't get some boats getting up to category, then all our efforts to get into offshore races will come to nothing, so we need to start to build the offshore multi fleet. But do be aware of the task ahead to achieve it.

I got XL2 up to Cat 1 back in 94 and it was not easy back then. Much harder now. XL2 already had the escape hatches and a liferaft.

Right now I am working towards Cat 4 for the Lock Crowther Memorial Ocean Race, nearly there but it has been an effort, just from 6 to 4. When I had a look through the regs for Cat 2 it did put me off. I am struggling with it. I can handle the liferaft (hire or borrow). The HF is a problem. It is not just a matter of bolting it in like a VHF. There's a lot more to it and I don't imagine you could just hire one of those. If they are not happy with those why not just a sattelite phone, those you can hire and no installation required, then again if they are using yellow brick . . . . . . .

Looking at the blue book I think a Pittwater to Coffs should be Cat 3, we are always close to shorelines. But I doubt we will get that changed.

More tomorrow.

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Edited from Nuddy:

 

 

I got XL2 up to Cat 1 back in 94 and it was not easy back then. Much harder now. XL2 already had the escape hatches and a liferaft.

Right now I am working towards Cat 4 for the Lock Crowther Memorial Ocean Race, nearly there but it has been an effort, just from 6 to 4. When I had a look through the regs for Cat 2 it did put me off. I am struggling with it. I can handle the liferaft (hire or borrow). The HF is a problem. It is not just a matter of bolting it in like a VHF. There's a lot more to it and I don't imagine you could just hire one of those. If they are not happy with those why not just a sattelite phone, those you can hire and no installation required, then again if they are using yellow brick . . . . . . .

Looking at the blue book I think a Pittwater to Coffs should be Cat 3, we are always close to shorelines. But I doubt we will get that changed.

More tomorrow.

 

 

Definately should be cat3! Warm water, close to the coast.

 

We looked at hiring one for a leadmine we looked into leasing but it blows out a bit, install, antenna, wiring. Agree a Sat Phone is alot safer. You can dig it out ( provided it was in a waterproof container) and use it once the boat is flooded or upside down can't do that with your HF.

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Careful with NSW YA regs, they are incomplete. I downloaded cat4 only to find it was the wrong year, it is now deleted

http://www.nsw.yachting.org.au/default.asp?MenuID=Racing/1059/0/,2013-17_Equipment_Audit_Forms/25161/0/

I get my info from hard copy of the new blue book.

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HF Radio should be wiped from all regs. 19th Century communications in the 21st Century.

Satellite phone should be the basic standard.

At the very least make it an option (to keep those who have invested in HF happy) either/or.

 

 

Edited from Nuddy:

 

 

I got XL2 up to Cat 1 back in 94 and it was not easy back then. Much harder now. XL2 already had the escape hatches and a liferaft.

Right now I am working towards Cat 4 for the Lock Crowther Memorial Ocean Race, nearly there but it has been an effort, just from 6 to 4. When I had a look through the regs for Cat 2 it did put me off. I am struggling with it. I can handle the liferaft (hire or borrow). The HF is a problem. It is not just a matter of bolting it in like a VHF. There's a lot more to it and I don't imagine you could just hire one of those. If they are not happy with those why not just a sattelite phone, those you can hire and no installation required, then again if they are using yellow brick . . . . . . .

Looking at the blue book I think a Pittwater to Coffs should be Cat 3, we are always close to shorelines. But I doubt we will get that changed.

More tomorrow.

 

 

Definately should be cat3! Warm water, close to the coast.

 

We looked at hiring one for a leadmine we looked into leasing but it blows out a bit, install, antenna, wiring. Agree a Sat Phone is alot safer. You can dig it out ( provided it was in a waterproof container) and use it once the boat is flooded or upside down can't do that with your HF.

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Great News. I tried for years but only had success with MHYC (Sydney-Mooloolaba 1995) and RSYS (Sydney-Southport a couple of times).

I could be interested if TT is found to be suitable (hasn't been offshore yet) and if we can get some others (Indian Chief, Voodoo Spirit, Quickstep, Two Up, Lukim Yu, Big Bird, Nusa Dua, Morticia, Countess, anyone from Qld, Vic, SA?

 

Immediate hurdles for me: Cat 2, hf radio, life raft, first aid certs, safety and survival certs.

Not impossible, just hurdles.

 

If you need crew.........I have First Aid, safety / survival at sea , and radio. I'm keen and I don't eat much. Willing to pay my expenses and your first nights bar tab.

Pil

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First night's tab could be a huge expense, unless you're talking about the first night at sea. ;-)

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The reason for HF over Satphone and yellow brick has been covered in may places by many people.

Hf is broadcast to anyone listening, not to specific members of the fleet. Everyone can record the location of all the other boats, and knows where people are. Satphone is p2p, only race control will know where everyone is.

Trackers stop working all the fucking time, and can have glitches that send them miles away from where they actually are. They also require internet to see where others are. Your internet connection would then become part of your safety setup, can you rely on mobile phone network in an emergency, and would you want internet access throughout the race as part of the safety requirements?

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First night's tab could be a huge expense, unless you're talking about the first night at sea. ;-)

 

I figure if he's spending the coin on the big stuff, the least I can do is buy the drinks. Nuddy's getting old......how much can he drink....?

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Yes I get the whole broadcast to everyone aspect of the rules and this is why I'd never have just a sat phone as the requirement but the race rules say you only have to monitor VHF while racing. You don't even need to turn on the HF, except for skeds. There are enough VHF stations to have full coverage of the course and all of the boats around you will be listening to VHF, so what's the issue with just VHF.

 

The reason for HF over Satphone and yellow brick has been covered in may places by many people.

Hf is broadcast to anyone listening, not to specific members of the fleet. Everyone can record the location of all the other boats, and knows where people are. Satphone is p2p, only race control will know where everyone is.

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I think you have to assume HF will remain the requirement and have a plan to buy/rent and install at the last minute while hoping that other suggestions might be accepted by the race committee.

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This is a great result for anyone who cares about the AUS multi scene. Anyone who is interested should contact the club regarding their eledgibility concerns, as at this stage it's all about boats on the start line.

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This is a great result for anyone who cares about the AUS multi scene. Anyone who is interested should contact the club regarding their eledgibility concerns, as at this stage it's all about boats on the start line.

Yes That's right. I am by no means sure that I will be able to get to Cat 2 in time for the 6th December deadline but I'm going to try. I've got my entry in for the sake of offshore racing for multihulls, a quest I started in 1988. Guys, lets get those entries in to make sure this is a goer. If the worst comes to the worst I can change my entry to regatta only on 6th December and 'Cruise' up to Coffs. I suggest anyone who thinks they might be able to make it to get an entry in to help get this show on the road. If we hold back because there might be a problem then we will get nowhere. CAN DO is the attitude. Better to try and fail than not to try at all. I hope we can get an exemption from HF but am not worrying about that right now, just getting on with everything else, starting with Cat4 for next Friday and moving on from there. I take comfort in the fact that I don't have to pay the entry fee until 6th December. That gives me over 2 months to get organised.

Only 2 entries so far, Two Tribes and Team Australia. Lets get em in and show RPAYC that we mean business!

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the change back to HF requirement was due to an incident a few years ago when a boat at the back of the fleet got into trouble, I can't recall the specifics now. RPA is very alive to the problem having a HF causes for many potential entrants. One potential solution that has been canvased is to have a gate of port Stevens so that when there is a southerly the fast reaching boats, can't go wide and outside VHF range. It would be well worth it to discuss with the sailing office, no reason why the multies could not have a gate if this helped get entries.

 

 

 

Yes I get the whole broadcast to everyone aspect of the rules and this is why I'd never have just a sat phone as the requirement but the race rules say you only have to monitor VHF while racing. You don't even need to turn on the HF, except for skeds. There are enough VHF stations to have full coverage of the course and all of the boats around you will be listening to VHF, so what's the issue with just VHF.

 

The reason for HF over Satphone and yellow brick has been covered in may places by many people.

Hf is broadcast to anyone listening, not to specific members of the fleet. Everyone can record the location of all the other boats, and knows where people are. Satphone is p2p, only race control will know where everyone is.

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the change back to HF requirement was due to an incident a few years ago when a boat at the back of the fleet got into trouble, I can't recall the specifics now. RPA is very alive to the problem having a HF causes for many potential entrants. One potential solution that has been canvased is to have a gate of port Stevens so that when there is a southerly the fast reaching boats, can't go wide and outside VHF range. It would be well worth it to discuss with the sailing office, no reason why the multies could not have a gate if this helped get entries.

 

 

 

Yes I get the whole broadcast to everyone aspect of the rules and this is why I'd never have just a sat phone as the requirement but the race rules say you only have to monitor VHF while racing. You don't even need to turn on the HF, except for skeds. There are enough VHF stations to have full coverage of the course and all of the boats around you will be listening to VHF, so what's the issue with just VHF.

 

The reason for HF over Satphone and yellow brick has been covered in may places by many people.

Hf is broadcast to anyone listening, not to specific members of the fleet. Everyone can record the location of all the other boats, and knows where people are. Satphone is p2p, only race control will know where everyone is.

I would be interested to hear how you would implement the gate and ensure compliance. Some people seem to have enough trouble with fixed channel markers, let alone a GPS gate on the ocean.

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Doesn't have to be a GPS gate, inside cabbage tree or a mark set outside , even a Mathew Flinders on station with a few lines out would work.

 

 

the change back to HF requirement was due to an incident a few years ago when a boat at the back of the fleet got into trouble, I can't recall the specifics now. RPA is very alive to the problem having a HF causes for many potential entrants. One potential solution that has been canvased is to have a gate of port Stevens so that when there is a southerly the fast reaching boats, can't go wide and outside VHF range. It would be well worth it to discuss with the sailing office, no reason why the multies could not have a gate if this helped get entries.

 

 

 

Yes I get the whole broadcast to everyone aspect of the rules and this is why I'd never have just a sat phone as the requirement but the race rules say you only have to monitor VHF while racing. You don't even need to turn on the HF, except for skeds. There are enough VHF stations to have full coverage of the course and all of the boats around you will be listening to VHF, so what's the issue with just VHF.

 

The reason for HF over Satphone and yellow brick has been covered in may places by many people.

Hf is broadcast to anyone listening, not to specific members of the fleet. Everyone can record the location of all the other boats, and knows where people are. Satphone is p2p, only race control will know where everyone is.

I would be interested to hear how you would implement the gate and ensure compliance. Some people seem to have enough trouble with fixed channel markers, let alone a GPS gate on the ocean.

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I did the Cairns to Port Moresby in 95, Cat 2, no HF required (although I had one back then) they had a radio relay boat accompanying the fleet. I have done 10 Brisbane to Gladstone races, none of them required HF.

The gate sounds like a good idea.

I suggest we get some entries in, then approach the committee. They are unlikely to change anything for 2 boats (actually 1 boat as Sean has HF).

So c'mon guys, get those entries in, don't need to pay till 6th December. Don't hesitate, nothing to lose, everything to gain.

 

the change back to HF requirement was due to an incident a few years ago when a boat at the back of the fleet got into trouble, I can't recall the specifics now. RPA is very alive to the problem having a HF causes for many potential entrants. One potential solution that has been canvased is to have a gate of port Stevens so that when there is a southerly the fast reaching boats, can't go wide and outside VHF range. It would be well worth it to discuss with the sailing office, no reason why the multies could not have a gate if this helped get entries.

 

 

 

Yes I get the whole broadcast to everyone aspect of the rules and this is why I'd never have just a sat phone as the requirement but the race rules say you only have to monitor VHF while racing. You don't even need to turn on the HF, except for skeds. There are enough VHF stations to have full coverage of the course and all of the boats around you will be listening to VHF, so what's the issue with just VHF.

 

The reason for HF over Satphone and yellow brick has been covered in may places by many people.

Hf is broadcast to anyone listening, not to specific members of the fleet. Everyone can record the location of all the other boats, and knows where people are. Satphone is p2p, only race control will know where everyone is.

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^

Great for lots of boats to enter, but can you imagine how happy the organisers are going to be when we get to Dec 6 and all but 2 multis drop out?

 

Event organisers love it when they hire personnel and safety setup to cater for 20, which turns out to be 2...

 

Under-promise, over-deliver is so underestimated as a means of exceeding expectations and having a positive result for a 'cause' such as this.

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^

Great for lots of boats to enter, but can you imagine how happy the organisers are going to be when we get to Dec 6 and all but 2 multis drop out?

 

Event organisers love it when they hire personnel and safety setup to cater for 20, which turns out to be 2...

 

Under-promise, over-deliver is so underestimated as a means of exceeding expectations and having a positive result for a 'cause' such as this.

What's your suggestion?

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Get the potentials all together and solve the problems that would prevent them from following through on Dec 6.

 

Group buys, contra skill sharing, equipment sharing - all those things that a group with a goal and cohesive plan can achieve together.

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^

Great for lots of boats to enter, but can you imagine how happy the organisers are going to be when we get to Dec 6 and all but 2 multis drop out?

 

Event organisers love it when they hire personnel and safety setup to cater for 20, which turns out to be 2...

 

Under-promise, over-deliver is so underestimated as a means of exceeding expectations and having a positive result for a 'cause' such as this.

On the other hand if they only get 2 entries in the multihull division they will surely cancel the division.

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Get the potentials all together and solve the problems that would prevent them from following through on Dec 6.

 

Group buys, contra skill sharing, equipment sharing - all those things that a group with a goal and cohesive plan can achieve together.

Sure do all that but get the entries in first. What it really is, in the case where you don't have to pay until 6th December, is registration of expression of interest.

We need to show that there are sufficient owners interested to make it worthwhile going ahead with the division. They have issued a gushing press release about this historic and revolutionary change for mainstream yachting. They expect a significant response or they will call it off due to lack of interest.

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Got some info today.

HF radio, for a multihull with no backstay, requires 2 whip Antennas. Also requires an earth plate on a place that will always be in the water - that is, no hull flying with the HF on. Also the cost of the earth plate + the copper strap from earth plate to tuner. There is only one unit that they will certify, ICOM M801E

Total cost approx $5,600 + installation if you can't do it yourself. Also you need a lot more battery power to run HF. I installed one myself on XL2 in 94 and it was quite a job. I had to increase battery capacity and I had to run the motor in neutral to transmit. On Two Tribes I have much less battery capacity and a non charging motor so further changes and expense there. You can't hire a HF. Possibly could borrow one but you still have to buy the antennas, bases, earth plate, copper strap and earth plate.

So for me, HF will be a deal breaker.

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Now the good news.

Monohulls are also having trouble with the HF requirement. Today I heard a rumour that the organisers are considering allowing a satphone in lieu of HF.

Rumour has it that the decision will be made and announced (either way) by/on 16th October.

Satphone new cost $949 and there are subsidies available from Gov't depending on circumstances. There is an adaptor kit for iPhone to turn it into a satphone (didn't ask the cost as I have a samsung). Satphone hire for 7 days cost $126 + call charges.

 

If we can get a significant number of entries in ASAP then we can lobby with some clout to influence the decision.

 

OR we could lobby for the Port Stephens gate idea and go VHF.

 

Either way a serious expression of interest from a significant number would IMO be essential first.

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Hooray!! Morticia has entered, that makes 3!

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Maybe we could all just agree to update the status on our boat's facebook page every three hours, then all's good.

 

It's probably more reliable that any sort or radio comunications and the positions can be plotted directly into the club's facebook page to show where everyone is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

^_^ Sorry, I'm joking of course...

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Maybe we could all just agree to update the status on our boat's facebook page every three hours, then all's good.

It's probably more reliable that any sort or radio comunications and the positions can be plotted directly into the club's facebook page to show where everyone is.

^_^ Sorry, I'm joking of course...

Stop joking and get your entry in Jethrow

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Indian Chief has entered! That makes 4. Keep em coming.

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Got some info today.

HF radio, for a multihull with no backstay, requires 2 whip Antennas. Also requires an earth plate on a place that will always be in the water - that is, no hull flying with the HF on. Also the cost of the earth plate + the copper strap from earth plate to tuner. There is only one unit that they will certify, ICOM M801E

Total cost approx $5,600 + installation if you can't do it yourself. Also you need a lot more battery power to run HF. I installed one myself on XL2 in 94 and it was quite a job. I had to increase battery capacity and I had to run the motor in neutral to transmit. On Two Tribes I have much less battery capacity and a non charging motor so further changes and expense there. You can't hire a HF. Possibly could borrow one but you still have to buy the antennas, bases, earth plate, copper strap and earth plate.

So for me, HF will be a deal breaker.

Yeah I could have told you all of that Nuddy, had similar experience trying to fit one on a leased leadmine.

 

Hopefully they will allow a VHF and Satphone.

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i spoke to the RPAYC this morning and they are hoping to drop the requirement for HF. outcome will be known in the next few weeks. i was advised to hold off installing one. Unfortunately if we have to have HF i will withdraw, its just way too much trouble to install. earth plate in a hull thats in the air a lot of the time, adding a wire stay somewhere for the antenna, not really practical for my trailable 31 footer.

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That sounds promising. Should be easy enough - just amend the NOR. Maybe its harder to remove things from Categories than add them? Three Peaks (which is arguably a more exposed race than P to CH) is Cat 3 but then they add things in the NOR (but not HF) to make it closer to Cat 2. Seems to me there is a big jump from Cat 3 to Cat 2 - maybe YA needs a Cat 2.5 for these sort of coastal races ....

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Interesting topic, I have been trying hard to connect my two clubs (QCYC / MYCQ) and not just have the Brisbane to Gladstone at the same start, but in the same event. Sticking point is the monohull love for HF, and when I take those requirements back to my multi-boys I get smacked in the gob. Will continue to campaing though, especially with the huge Gladstone push for next year's multihull centenary.

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There are several Monohull Owners who are waiting on this decision, hence the very few mono entries (6) so far. I was told the decision would be released on 16th October.

I looked into the HF installation. I had one on XL2 in 94 and it was a major then, even more now. We need 2 whip antennas now, only one back then. Also now only one make and model is acceptable to the authority. That is the ICOM M801E, so if your s/h unit is not one of those it is no use to you.


So Darren's out and I'm out if they are hard line on the HF.

I would appeal to you all to get an entry in ASAP to get the message through that we are interested and keen, even if there is just the possibility that you can make it.

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i spoke to the RPAYC this morning and they are hoping to drop the requirement for HF. outcome will be known in the next few weeks. i was advised to hold off installing one. Unfortunately if we have to have HF i will withdraw, its just way too much trouble to install. earth plate in a hull thats in the air a lot of the time, adding a wire stay somewhere for the antenna, not really practical for my trailable 31 footer.

You don't actually need the wire stay, 2 whips will do and you can just make sure the hull with the earth plate is in the water for the skeds (although i'm pretty sure the skeds would be on VHF anyway) but fundamentally I agree that it is way too much trouble and expense for the sake of 1 shortish race that IMO should be cat 3 anyway (look in the blue book). However I am willing to concede Cat 2 as long as they will drop the HF. It seems highly unlikely that anyone will be out of VHF range with a significant number of the fleet at any time, except Team Australia. And we all have epirbs, and the satphone if they go that way. Really HF is 19th century communication.

I'm trying to figure where I can carry the liferaft on TT.

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That sounds promising. Should be easy enough - just amend the NOR. Maybe its harder to remove things from Categories than add them? Three Peaks (which is arguably a more exposed race than P to CH) is Cat 3 but then they add things in the NOR (but not HF) to make it closer to Cat 2. Seems to me there is a big jump from Cat 3 to Cat 2 - maybe YA needs a Cat 2.5 for these sort of coastal races ....

I did several 2 handed pittwater to Coffs races in the 90s with the SSAA and I'm sure we didn't need HF.

Peccadillo, please put in an entry, even if you are doubtful you can fit it in. Don't have to pay till 6th December so you can withdraw then if it looks doubtful.

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Actually about once each day I think, this is all too hard. Maybe it would be better if they do go hardline on the HF, then I can forget about all of the rest of cat 2 and just sail up to Coffs after christmas at my liesure and be ready early for the Coffs regatta. Of course I get over it each day and determine to press on.

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Interesting topic, I have been trying hard to connect my two clubs (QCYC / MYCQ) and not just have the Brisbane to Gladstone at the same start, but in the same event. Sticking point is the monohull love for HF, and when I take those requirements back to my multi-boys I get smacked in the gob. Will continue to campaing though, especially with the huge Gladstone push for next year's multihull centenary.

Peter,

Didn't we very nearly get there, I remember a common briefing at QCYC one year, 98?? and 2 piece start line with same start time. then someone must have upset someone and it went to a Manly start.

I remember seeing an episode of Rumpole when he said QC stood for Queer Character. Thought of QCYC at the time.

How do you get on re liferafts?

Keep up the good work.

Seriously considering the next Gladstone in TT.

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5 Multis entered so far and 7 monos. Lots waiting and hoping for a favourable decision on HF.

I say enter and write a letter re HF. Costs nothing to enter and lets them know you are serious.

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Below from latest Coffs Regatta bulletin, should have answer one way or the other tomorrow.

 

Psst...

We might have some good news for boats entering the Regatta. The race committee is meeting on Tuesday night and one of the items on the agenda, if passed, will be popular, particularly with new entries. Watch this space.

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Below from latest Coffs Regatta bulletin, should have answer one way or the other tomorrow.

 

Psst...

We might have some good news for boats entering the Regatta. The race committee is meeting on Tuesday night and one of the items on the agenda, if passed, will be popular, particularly with new entries. Watch this space.

So enter online NOW and try to influence tonight's decision. Send the committee an email message saying your entry depends on no HF. Its not too late yet. Meeting Tuesday Night and it's only Tuesday afternoon. Every little bit will help.

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Nothing heard on email or on the race website.

Anyone heard anything?

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Thanks Rawhide. I guess that is a recommendation for a change. No recommendation need for no change, so one step closer. I'll keep my Cat 2 preparations on hold until 24th. Carrying on with Cat 3.

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A recommendation will be put to the board on 23rd

24th now. Any news?

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I was there tonite but no-one said anything. I would think that allowing VHF would be news (in the bar at least).

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I was there tonite but no-one said anything. I would think that allowing VHF would be news (in the bar at least).

Well I'm too busy with lots of other things on the boat right now but it would be good to know.

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They've seen the light!

Watch now for the run on monohull entries.

I am still considering. One obstacle gone.

Still not sure the boat is suitable.

Lots to do to get ready.

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looks like RPA are now the most progressive ocean racing orgs in AUS,

 

multis & alternate means of comms

 

good news

 

For the 2014 race, all boats will be required to roll call once a day to a central race control reporting their 1800hrs position prior to 1900hrs using one of the following methods: HF via Kordia, Sat phone, VHF to base, 3G mobile phone text or email. All reports will be acknowledged by the same medium of the call by race control.

From a safety perspective, all boats are required to carry EPIRBs and personal location beacons (PLBs) and there is adequate VHF coverage over the 226 nautical mile distance between Barrenjoey and Coffs Harbour. Supporting the fleet will be the 21m Matthew Flinders who will follow the fleet and monitor HF/VHF/3G and sat phone communications and Marine Rescue will also monitor VHF and HF 24/7 for the length of the race.

Experienced offshore competitor and chairman of the Coffs organising committee Richard Hudson said of the decision, ”For us it’s a natural progression, we are constantly reviewing things to do with this race and have had a plan in place for some time with the tracker technology and the ideology behind position reporting. With the accuracy and reliability of the trackers and the economic availability of sat phones it made this decision a rational one without impinging on safety standards.

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Interesting, let's hope it runs smooth and we can use it as a good example for other races.

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Looks like the yacht I'm doing it on is only doing the long race. Is anyone loosing or adding crew for the day races up in Coffs? I need another ride.

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At this stage i'm only doing the long race then putting the Chief on its trailer for the trip back to Sydney and then staying on its trailer ready to go to Port Lincoln mid February.

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At this stage i'm only doing the long race then putting the Chief on its trailer for the trip back to Sydney and then staying on its trailer ready to go to Port Lincoln mid February.

What about the Geelong regatta in Jan? Thought you would go to that, visit the family, leave the boat and car at Geelong (for free) and fly back . Sounds rgeat can't wait to see you for a drink....

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We are serious about doing the race.

Can we use the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

I am a bit concerned that if NSW cat 2 Monohull regs are applied to multis we need to do all sorts of modifications

Can this be sorted before I sail the boat down.

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.

the NOR will say

 

is suspect it will the YA blue book 'CAT 2' Special Regulations

 

I'd be asking the race organiser NOT via a forum

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We are serious about doing the race.

Can we use the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

I am a bit concerned that if NSW cat 2 Monohull regs are applied to multis we need to do all sorts of modifications

Can this be sorted before I sail the boat down.

There are no NSW cat 2 Monohull regs. NOR says YA Special Regulations Part 1. Category 2

 

Within the special regulations there are certain parts that apply to Monohulls only, parts that apply to Multihulls only and parts that apply to both. The organisers will not apply those parts for Monohulls only to Multihulls.

What are the modifications that you think you need to do?

What are the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

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We are serious about doing the race.

Can we use the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

I am a bit concerned that if NSW cat 2 Monohull regs are applied to multis we need to do all sorts of modifications

Can this be sorted before I sail the boat down.

There are no NSW cat 2 Monohull regs. NOR says YA Special Regulations Part 1. Category 2

 

Within the special regulations there are certain parts that apply to Monohulls only, parts that apply to Multihulls only and parts that apply to both. The organisers will not apply those parts for Monohulls only to Multihulls.

What are the modifications that you think you need to do?

What are the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

The boat is already set up to CAT 2 for the Brisbane to Gladstone, but because the MYCQ runs its own race they also have their own regs and inspectors that understand multihulls.

Eg on the multihull notice of race we need a stability certificate, bit hard on a multihull, also need scantlings signed by original designer etc etc.

Another example would be 3.05.3 "a yacht shall be designed and built to resist capsize". This could be applied to a lagoon but hard to justify on any racing boat.

I have also been warned that some of the YA NSW inspectors are a little "enthusiastic" and require all sorts of stuff

There are probably 50 grey areas that the multihulls could get caught with.

Another example may be 3.23.5 c) "multihulls shall have the provision to pump out all watertight compartments" I would have thought if you have access to a watertight compartment to pump it out it probably is not watertight, and in the past common sense has prevailed but....

What I am getting at is if you guys can build a relationship with a YA inspector familiar with multihulls we can work through some of the grey areas before I bring the boat down.

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We are serious about doing the race.

Can we use the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

I am a bit concerned that if NSW cat 2 Monohull regs are applied to multis we need to do all sorts of modifications

Can this be sorted before I sail the boat down.

There are no NSW cat 2 Monohull regs. NOR says YA Special Regulations Part 1. Category 2

 

Within the special regulations there are certain parts that apply to Monohulls only, parts that apply to Multihulls only and parts that apply to both. The organisers will not apply those parts for Monohulls only to Multihulls.

What are the modifications that you think you need to do?

What are the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

The boat is already set up to CAT 2 for the Brisbane to Gladstone, but because the MYCQ runs its own race they also have their own regs and inspectors that understand multihulls.

Eg on the multihull notice of race we need a stability certificate, bit hard on a multihull, also need scantlings signed by original designer etc etc.

Another example would be 3.05.3 "a yacht shall be designed and built to resist capsize". This could be applied to a lagoon but hard to justify on any racing boat.

I have also been warned that some of the YA NSW inspectors are a little "enthusiastic" and require all sorts of stuff

There are probably 50 grey areas that the multihulls could get caught with.

Another example may be 3.23.5 c) "multihulls shall have the provision to pump out all watertight compartments" I would have thought if you have access to a watertight compartment to pump it out it probably is not watertight, and in the past common sense has prevailed but....

What I am getting at is if you guys can build a relationship with a YA inspector familiar with multihulls we can work through some of the grey areas before I bring the boat down.

Follow the YA blue book and you'll be fine. You can also download the cat 2 safety form from the YA NSW website and just ignore monohull stuff. We have a multihull owner safety auditor here in Pittwater i can put you in touch with if you need help, just message me for his details.

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The clauses have changed a bit in the latest regulations, but I think you will find that the resistance to capsize provision only applies to Mono's . As for ability to Pump out watertight compartments, there is no grey area around this, it is a requirement for multies for cat 4 and above.

 

 

We are serious about doing the race.
Can we use the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?
I am a bit concerned that if NSW cat 2 Monohull regs are applied to multis we need to do all sorts of modifications
Can this be sorted before I sail the boat down.


There are no NSW cat 2 Monohull regs. NOR says YA Special Regulations Part 1. Category 2

Within the special regulations there are certain parts that apply to Monohulls only, parts that apply to Multihulls only and parts that apply to both. The organisers will not apply those parts for Monohulls only to Multihulls.
What are the modifications that you think you need to do?
What are the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

The boat is already set up to CAT 2 for the Brisbane to Gladstone, but because the MYCQ runs its own race they also have their own regs and inspectors that understand multihulls.

Eg on the multihull notice of race we need a stability certificate, bit hard on a multihull, also need scantlings signed by original designer etc etc.

Another example would be 3.05.3 "a yacht shall be designed and built to resist capsize". This could be applied to a lagoon but hard to justify on any racing boat.

I have also been warned that some of the YA NSW inspectors are a little "enthusiastic" and require all sorts of stuff

There are probably 50 grey areas that the multihulls could get caught with.

Another example may be 3.23.5 c) "multihulls shall have the provision to pump out all watertight compartments" I would have thought if you have access to a watertight compartment to pump it out it probably is not watertight, and in the past common sense has prevailed but....

What I am getting at is if you guys can build a relationship with a YA inspector familiar with multihulls we can work through some of the grey areas before I bring the boat down.

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We are serious about doing the race.

Can we use the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

I am a bit concerned that if NSW cat 2 Monohull regs are applied to multis we need to do all sorts of modifications

Can this be sorted before I sail the boat down.

There are no NSW cat 2 Monohull regs. NOR says YA Special Regulations Part 1. Category 2

 

Within the special regulations there are certain parts that apply to Monohulls only, parts that apply to Multihulls only and parts that apply to both. The organisers will not apply those parts for Monohulls only to Multihulls.

What are the modifications that you think you need to do?

What are the MYCQ cat 2 regulations?

The boat is already set up to CAT 2 for the Brisbane to Gladstone, but because the MYCQ runs its own race they also have their own regs and inspectors that understand multihulls.

Eg on the multihull notice of race we need a stability certificate, bit hard on a multihull, also need scantlings signed by original designer etc etc.

Another example would be 3.05.3 "a yacht shall be designed and built to resist capsize". This could be applied to a lagoon but hard to justify on any racing boat.

I have also been warned that some of the YA NSW inspectors are a little "enthusiastic" and require all sorts of stuff

There are probably 50 grey areas that the multihulls could get caught with.

Another example may be 3.23.5 c) "multihulls shall have the provision to pump out all watertight compartments" I would have thought if you have access to a watertight compartment to pump it out it probably is not watertight, and in the past common sense has prevailed but....

What I am getting at is if you guys can build a relationship with a YA inspector familiar with multihulls we can work through some of the grey areas before I bring the boat down.

Follow the YA blue book and you'll be fine. You can also download the cat 2 safety form from the YA NSW website and just ignore monohull stuff. We have a multihull owner safety auditor here in Pittwater i can put you in touch with if you need help, just message me for his details.

My understanding is that you need a Cat 2 certificate. One from QLD should be fine. They will want you to submit the certificate by 6th December.

Just to be certain you could discuss it with a NSW based inspector as suggested above.

 

Correction: NOR does specify a Yachting NSW accredited auditor so you will need to get it done in NSW but not necessarily one from RPAYC.

 

My blue book: 3.05.3 any required bulkhead . . . . . nothing to do with capsize.

Capsize resistance is 3.04

 

3.23.5 refers to spare bulbs for nav lights.

3.20.2 is the one about pumping out watertight compartments

All you need is a watertight inspection port in each compartment.

 

Are you looking at the 2013 - 2016 blue book?

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