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Micke

America's Cup Final: Race 13 & 14

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Wish the venue was more trailer-boat friendly :mellow:

 

It's about as far from it as you could get !!

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Wish the venue was more trailer-boat friendly :mellow:

 

It's about as far from it as you could get !!

Treasure Island.

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Word on the street here in Kiwi land is that if ETNZ wins the Cup, Oracle may be planning court action over the points deduction before the AC. Hold onto your hats people, this may go on a lot longer than the on the water racing!!

What? I know plenty of sailors, including people involved in previous cup campaigns, and have heard no comments to that effect.

 

Oracle wont have any success should they play the court-room approach.

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Word on the street here in Kiwi land is that if ETNZ wins the Cup, Oracle may be planning court action over the points deduction before the AC. Hold onto your hats people, this may go on a lot longer than the on the water racing!!

What? I know plenty of sailors, including people involved in previous cup campaigns, and have heard no comments to that effect.

 

Oracle wont have any success should they play the court-room approach.

with TE representing them.......Tui advert.

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Word on the street here in Kiwi land is that if ETNZ wins the Cup, Oracle may be planning court action over the points deduction before the AC. Hold onto your hats people, this may go on a lot longer than the on the water racing!! It will be a dark day if the Americas Cup is won in the courtroom and not on the water.

That's total uneducated BS.

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I don't know how to get access to virtual eye on my ipad, but can anyone who has it tell me what the cross looked like on there?

I really don't understand this whole, "The Hollywood act got the penalty" business. Looking at the video, it looks like Oracle would have crushed into the aft part of ETNZ's windward hull had JS not taken the action he did. It looked like a clear foul to me. What did it look like on VE?

I haven't looked in detail but my impression is that Jimmy came very close to shaving off a few paint flakes.

 

For Virtual Eye, go to www.americascup,com and look for the AC app. Download it. You'll get access to Liveline, Virtual Eye, and live race coverage (if permitted in your neck of the woods). VE is a great way to add perspective when the talking heads fail you or the need to rake in advertising shekels takes precedence.

 

All races are archived but it usually takes a few hours for the most recent race to be uploaded.

There was no "Hollywood". It was a straight port/starboard infringement.

 

OTUSA had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. It looked close.

 

ETNZ got it wrong and were penalised. Nothing more to see here. Time to move on.

Move on for sure. But interesting to discuss. Chris Dickson suggested it was Hollywood enhanced, any stb rights skipper would paint the call in bright colors. Would like to see the umpires room graphics if become available - the fact their confirmation took so long suggests it might have been an open question that needed a careful second look. Certainly RD in the SRM podcast, was going for a rich reward had the move been a little better judged.

It looked to me like OTUSA hunted ETNZ a little, to reinforce that starboard call, but nothing illegal in that.

 

Had ETNZ pulled the pass off, who knows what the race outcome might have been. But they blew it and have paid the price.

 

Another day tomorrow.

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can you imagine the shitstorm if the RC had the discretion to change/shorten the course during the race!

 

I'm sure they are glad they don't have any choices there.

 

as far as starting the race in conditions where they can't finish - maybe the wind will increase..., they should _always_ start a race when they can..., and let nature have its way.

 

perhaps the wind limits are not set right...

 

perhaps the time limit is too low...

 

but it is what it is now..., and true champions can deal with this kind of stuff.

Sure they can, BUT, calculating the time it takes to sail the course in given wind strenght isn't a rocket science. If you're a "world class" principal race officer and have doubts about the outcome, why don't just postpone a race for 30 or so minutes, see what happens to the wind and then either start the race or call it a day.

 

Letting guys sail almost a full course and then the late abandonment is not what I would call a "good practice".

 

Just like when in case of giving redress (by PC), the actions by the Race committee should also be FAIR to ALL COMPETITORS.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Unless we have the SI's to cite this is just guesswork.

 

I suspect that a lower wind limit is written into the SI's, the RO should start the race. Postponing while conditions are within the range stated in the SI's and you would be bitching about good practice if your team lost.

 

Following the SI's to the letter is FAIR to ALL COMPETITORS.

 

For everyone that has missed the previous posts:

Reason for 40 min time limit was to fit two races into two hours for mass media

Procedure for not losing a race due to time limits was mark boats instead of fixed marks so course could be shortened

Mark boats eliminated as part of safety revisions

Top wind speed limit lowered as part of safety revisions

 

Time limit or lower wind speed limit should have been changed to bring into realm of possibility, this was not done.

 

We have less than ideal SI's, but as long as the RO follows them the racing is as fair as possible.

 

It is simply bad luck that NZ has suffered more than USA.

 

I sorry I don't remember who posted this thought but it is spot on: Had they revised the lower wind speed to allow the boats to finish, we would have had the conditions of Race 2 and the result was a win for USA.

 

Not being able to square a W/L course is an issue too.

 

It would seem the SI's are preventing what many of us would consider best practices.

Every Race committee has enough freedom to operate within a Rules, SIs included.

If RC have TV on their priority list first and sport only second, than it is not sport of sailing anymore.

 

This is from Race management 101:

 

ISAF International Race Management Manual

 

SECTION T

 

Race Management of Match Racing

 

T.9 Postponement

 

T.9.1 Postponement before the starting sequence:

 

If the conditions do not permit fair racing, do not hesitate to postpone. The

policy about abandonment applies to postponements as well.

 

 

T.12 Abandonment

 

When a match needs to be abandoned, it should happen as quickly as possible. The longer a

match has lasted, the more the competitors have invested in the match.

 

When abandonment is being considered because of a lack of wind, it is highly

recommended to ask the umpires of the match who will have a detailed knowledge about the

situation for that match.

 

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I don't know how to get access to virtual eye on my ipad, but can anyone who has it tell me what the cross looked like on there?

I really don't understand this whole, "The Hollywood act got the penalty" business. Looking at the video, it looks like Oracle would have crushed into the aft part of ETNZ's windward hull had JS not taken the action he did. It looked like a clear foul to me. What did it look like on VE?

I haven't looked in detail but my impression is that Jimmy came very close to shaving off a few paint flakes.

 

For Virtual Eye, go to www.americascup,com and look for the AC app. Download it. You'll get access to Liveline, Virtual Eye, and live race coverage (if permitted in your neck of the woods). VE is a great way to add perspective when the talking heads fail you or the need to rake in advertising shekels takes precedence.

 

All races are archived but it usually takes a few hours for the most recent race to be uploaded.

There was no "Hollywood". It was a straight port/starboard infringement.

 

OTUSA had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. It looked close.

 

ETNZ got it wrong and were penalised. Nothing more to see here. Time to move on.

Move on for sure. But interesting to discuss. Chris Dickson suggested it was Hollywood enhanced, any stb rights skipper would paint the call in bright colors. Would like to see the umpires room graphics if become available - the fact their confirmation took so long suggests it might have been an open question that needed a careful second look. Certainly RD in the SRM podcast, was going for a rich reward had the move been a little better judged.

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/R13-1-USA-pen-NZL.iPad_1.mp4

 

even with the big luff (the two vector arrows show a perhaps 1 sec "onionskin" view of velocity, the original grey arrow still intersects ETNZ handily...

 

edit:dip, not luff :)

 

attachicon.gifFrom Clipboard_13.jpg

 

Very interesting.

 

Oracle were steady on a heading of 104 with the bearing to ETNZ decreasing (missing them) until they went deeper to 100 at about 3 lengths from ETNZ. I think they were maybe still *just* missing, but it was very close.

 

When they headed up, they did so far more than was required to miss.

 

I think Chris Dickson was right.

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Far out NZ is so down in the dumps with this racing.
Acting like we lost a rugby world cup.
Here is some news for you my fallow Kiwis.

THERE WILL BE MORE CHANCES IN THE MORNING GET OVER IT!!!!

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Just watched the whole replay of the day's racing on Youtube, on the America's Cup channel. Was one of the producers or commentators watching porn during the broadcast? At a few junctures during the second race you can clearly hear a girl moaning in the background. That's pretty funny that the racing was that dull!

That was grumpy hanging off the winch handles.

 

He'd been moaning like a little girl during the whole race.

last time I checked grumpy wasn't even on the boat.

check your facts, you're wrong.

So OR gets a few races up and super troll is back from hospital.

These forums were doing fine in your absence thanks. Your personell attacks on Grumpy from day one are pretty tiresome.

Go back to your meds please.

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Ok, so why wasn't the course shortened? It seems absurd to me that the RD would set a course that couldn't actually be sailed within the time limit ...

I think the "vision" was that the marks would be movable. When they lost the mark boats they lost the ability to shorten. No?

 

You nailed it!

 

Oh for heaven's sake. Four competent guys on a couple of RIBS can reset a gate in a few minutes. Even dogwatch could and has done so. It's standard practice to move marks during a race. About the only limitation is that you'd want to be done before anyone is on leg 3. It was perfectly obvious that ought to have been done before the race started. Amateur hour on the committee boat.

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Guys, stop bitching about it: look on the bright side, we have another race to look forward tomorrow. It'll be all over soon...

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Ok, so why wasn't the course shortened? It seems absurd to me that the RD would set a course that couldn't actually be sailed within the time limit ...

I think the "vision" was that the marks would be movable. When they lost the mark boats they lost the ability to shorten. No?

 

You nailed it!

 

Oh for heaven's sake. Four competent guys on a couple of RIBS can reset a gate in a few minutes. Even dogwatch could and has done so. It's standard practice to move marks during a race. About the only limitation is that you'd want to be done before anyone is on leg 3. It was perfectly obvious that ought to have been done before the race started. Amateur hour on the committee boat.

 

In previous ACs it was perfectly common for boats to receive calls such as "new bearing to top mark, 275" shortly before they rounded the bottom mark. (and vice versa)

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I thought that Larry told everybody that OR had to win today so that the city of san francisco would get another weekend's worth of economic value ROI?

Looks like larry was on the money :)

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OR will get smoked in the light wind.

Showing that wonderful sailing insight once again with a stout promise .

 

Stay away from Vegas :)

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Far out NZ is so down in the dumps with this racing.

Acting like we lost a rugby world cup.

Here is some news for you my fallow Kiwis.

 

THERE WILL BE MORE CHANCES IN THE MORNING GET OVER IT!!!!

!

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I don't know how to get access to virtual eye on my ipad, but can anyone who has it tell me what the cross looked like on there?

I really don't understand this whole, "The Hollywood act got the penalty" business. Looking at the video, it looks like Oracle would have crushed into the aft part of ETNZ's windward hull had JS not taken the action he did. It looked like a clear foul to me. What did it look like on VE?

 

I haven't looked in detail but my impression is that Jimmy came very close to shaving off a few paint flakes.

 

For Virtual Eye, go to www.americascup,com and look for the AC app. Download it. You'll get access to Liveline, Virtual Eye, and live race coverage (if permitted in your neck of the woods). VE is a great way to add perspective when the talking heads fail you or the need to rake in advertising shekels takes precedence.

 

All races are archived but it usually takes a few hours for the most recent race to be uploaded.

There was no "Hollywood". It was a straight port/starboard infringement.

 

OTUSA had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. It looked close.

 

ETNZ got it wrong and were penalised. Nothing more to see here. Time to move on.

Move on for sure. But interesting to discuss. Chris Dickson suggested it was Hollywood enhanced, any stb rights skipper would paint the call in bright colors. Would like to see the umpires room graphics if become available - the fact their confirmation took so long suggests it might have been an open question that needed a careful second look. Certainly RD in the SRM podcast, was going for a rich reward had the move been a little better judged.

It looked to me like OTUSA hunted ETNZ a little, to reinforce that starboard call, but nothing illegal in that.

 

Had ETNZ pulled the pass off, who knows what the race outcome might have been. But they blew it and have paid the price.

 

Another day tomorrow.

funny I thought hunting was all G, at least a few days ago it was, what about play by the rules?

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Always enjoy the press conferences JS says that it is all about NZ versus Aus. So, all about him versus Dean, or all about him.

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I don't know how to get access to virtual eye on my ipad, but can anyone who has it tell me what the cross looked like on there?

I really don't understand this whole, "The Hollywood act got the penalty" business. Looking at the video, it looks like Oracle would have crushed into the aft part of ETNZ's windward hull had JS not taken the action he did. It looked like a clear foul to me. What did it look like on VE?

I haven't looked in detail but my impression is that Jimmy came very close to shaving off a few paint flakes.

 

For Virtual Eye, go to www.americascup,com and look for the AC app. Download it. You'll get access to Liveline, Virtual Eye, and live race coverage (if permitted in your neck of the woods). VE is a great way to add perspective when the talking heads fail you or the need to rake in advertising shekels takes precedence.

 

All races are archived but it usually takes a few hours for the most recent race to be uploaded.

There was no "Hollywood". It was a straight port/starboard infringement.

 

OTUSA had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. It looked close.

 

ETNZ got it wrong and were penalised. Nothing more to see here. Time to move on.

Move on for sure. But interesting to discuss. Chris Dickson suggested it was Hollywood enhanced, any stb rights skipper would paint the call in bright colors. Would like to see the umpires room graphics if become available - the fact their confirmation took so long suggests it might have been an open question that needed a careful second look. Certainly RD in the SRM podcast, was going for a rich reward had the move been a little better judged.

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/R13-1-USA-pen-NZL.iPad_1.mp4

 

even with the big luff (the two vector arrows show a perhaps 1 sec "onionskin" view of velocity, the original grey arrow still intersects ETNZ handily...

 

edit:dip, not luff :)

 

attachicon.gifFrom Clipboard_13.jpg

ummm - the 'original grey arrow' you are referring to show the true wind direckshin at each of the two umpire botes

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You may want to revisit that one Hoggie!

 

Up until the tragic death of Bart Simpson they had mark boats as turning marks. They were computer controlled remotely by the RC and could be moved to adjust course length. It permitted the ACEA to guarantee to TV that races would finish inside the time limit.

 

After the rethink that followed Bart's untimely death the mark boats were replaced by fixed, anchored marks.

 

Hence a fixed length course and ETNZ being robbed within two minutes of finishing ...... despite excellent boat speed all the way around the course other than the luffing matches before Mark 1.

 

I am not up to speed on what was supposed to be used prior to Simpon's death. My comment was in regards to this event starting, and when I say event I mean from the beginning of the AC34 America's Cup Final Match.

 

And as JS said, he wanted to raise the wind limits and "start the race, finish the race" and the Kiwi's said no. Well if they said yes they would be taking the Cup back to NZ.

 

ETNZ and their fans have nothing to bitch about. I can understand disappointed, but pissed? Nope.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

WetHog

 

Jiimmy Spittle wanted to increase the upper wind limit, not move the lower limit. So in yesterdays cancelled race, if that upper windlimit had increased to anything, 25kts whatever the race would have still gone ahead within the allowed window (which goes down to 3 its!!)

 

So ETNZ would still not quite complete the race would be pulled and the race committee would still look like clowns. In a race with average wind around 9.8kts the faster of the two boats is maybe 2-3 minutes short of finishing. Oracle was barely even halfway round!! Imagine the same race with 3kts of wind (within the limits so would have started). TeamNZ might have gotten to the first mark and TeamUSA might have crossed the starting line before the race was pulled.

 

Hopefully this race committee is never allowed near any Americas Cup event in the future.

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The sailing God's will not let the Kiwi's win the cup with that chicken shit 2 race penalty. If the Kiwi's win there will be a chicken shit, poor sportsman, loser sea lawyer asterisk * behind their win.

Are you kidding douchebag????

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ok. I haven't seen anyone else ask this yet... and maybe I'm just ignorant of some fact that makes this question stupid.... but why did Oracle allow TNZ to round mark 1 to the inside. It seemed to me like Oracle was the leeward boat and that there was not an overlap at the time Oracle or TNZ entered the zone ... so, no requirement to allow room... why not force them up and prevent them from rounding to the inside?

Wondered the same

C´mon Stinger and you other guys who have a clue about sailing. To my eyes it looked like OTUSA was not able to luff up to squeeze into the mark. Would the gennie have flocked only once, it would have been like putting a handbrake on. Thus they let them run and hoped for the best. Remember: Speed is king. Especially in these machines. Oh dear, that gets me to the point why they sailed so damned low when the gust was coming from their upper right. It looked like they stayed away from the gust and had put moonies into the parking meter. Finn´s and Lasers aren´t no app wind machines... Probably a bit noisy on the OTUSA and JS couldn´t filter the good advise from the bad one.

 

I thought it had been a very exciting race, nevertheless... and the show goes on.

Just my 2c.

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Hätte, hätte, Fahrradkette! Jetzt heißt es Rotz abwischen und nach vorne schauen in dem Wissen, dass die Amis 5 Rennen zurückliegen und ETNZ nur 1 Rennen zu Sieg braucht!

 

Go ahead tractor and kill that cat!

But I am really impressed by the great improvment OR made during the last week, faster tacks than the Kiwis is a great advantage for the Larrys guys ...

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Guys, stop bitching about it: look on the bright side, we have another race to look forward tomorrow. It'll be all over soon...

 

I love your optimism. I feel better about tomorrow already.

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All I can say about Team New Zealand is :

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ZdVHZwI8pcA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ZdVHZwI8pcA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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I don't know how to get access to virtual eye on my ipad, but can anyone who has it tell me what the cross looked like on there?

I really don't understand this whole, "The Hollywood act got the penalty" business. Looking at the video, it looks like Oracle would have crushed into the aft part of ETNZ's windward hull had JS not taken the action he did. It looked like a clear foul to me. What did it look like on VE?

I haven't looked in detail but my impression is that Jimmy came very close to shaving off a few paint flakes.

 

For Virtual Eye, go to www.americascup,com and look for the AC app. Download it. You'll get access to Liveline, Virtual Eye, and live race coverage (if permitted in your neck of the woods). VE is a great way to add perspective when the talking heads fail you or the need to rake in advertising shekels takes precedence.

 

All races are archived but it usually takes a few hours for the most recent race to be uploaded.

There was no "Hollywood". It was a straight port/starboard infringement.

 

OTUSA had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. It looked close.

 

ETNZ got it wrong and were penalised. Nothing more to see here. Time to move on.

Move on for sure. But interesting to discuss. Chris Dickson suggested it was Hollywood enhanced, any stb rights skipper would paint the call in bright colors. Would like to see the umpires room graphics if become available - the fact their confirmation took so long suggests it might have been an open question that needed a careful second look. Certainly RD in the SRM podcast, was going for a rich reward had the move been a little better judged.

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/R13-1-USA-pen-NZL.iPad_1.mp4

 

even with the big luff (the two vector arrows show a perhaps 1 sec "onionskin" view of velocity, the original grey arrow still intersects ETNZ handily...

 

edit:dip, not luff :)

 

attachicon.gifFrom Clipboard_13.jpg

Thanks for linking that, was an interesting penalty. I am not certain that there is not a rule that requires a certain amount of clearance, but from that short video it seems pretty clear that Oracle's bow and sprit would not have gotten closer than 5m from stern of ETNZ even if they had not luffed up - that from the simple observation that that was the minimum distance between ETNZ's transom and Oracle's bow+Sprit in direction of wind. Hell of thing to judge at that speed, but slo mo graphics tell the story. Virtual Eye http://americascup.virtualeye.tv/ tells the same story - 31m minimum bow to bow advantage (in wind direction) of ETNZ to Oracle during that cross, when bow to opposite transom is 26m - ie 5m gap.

 

That being the case why was a penalty given? (Umpires get chance to review these graphics, and they did take 30-60s), because as far as I can tell the umpires got it quite wrong.

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I don't know how to get access to virtual eye on my ipad, but can anyone who has it tell me what the cross looked like on there?

I really don't understand this whole, "The Hollywood act got the penalty" business. Looking at the video, it looks like Oracle would have crushed into the aft part of ETNZ's windward hull had JS not taken the action he did. It looked like a clear foul to me. What did it look like on VE?

I haven't looked in detail but my impression is that Jimmy came very close to shaving off a few paint flakes.

 

For Virtual Eye, go to www.americascup,com and look for the AC app. Download it. You'll get access to Liveline, Virtual Eye, and live race coverage (if permitted in your neck of the woods). VE is a great way to add perspective when the talking heads fail you or the need to rake in advertising shekels takes precedence.

 

All races are archived but it usually takes a few hours for the most recent race to be uploaded.

There was no "Hollywood". It was a straight port/starboard infringement.

 

OTUSA had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. It looked close.

 

ETNZ got it wrong and were penalised. Nothing more to see here. Time to move on.

Move on for sure. But interesting to discuss. Chris Dickson suggested it was Hollywood enhanced, any stb rights skipper would paint the call in bright colors. Would like to see the umpires room graphics if become available - the fact their confirmation took so long suggests it might have been an open question that needed a careful second look. Certainly RD in the SRM podcast, was going for a rich reward had the move been a little better judged.

It looked to me like OTUSA hunted ETNZ a little, to reinforce that starboard call, but nothing illegal in that.

 

Had ETNZ pulled the pass off, who knows what the race outcome might have been. But they blew it and have paid the price.

 

Another day tomorrow.

Virtual eye shows 31 metres between the boats at all times during that incident. Super close call but not foul IMHO.

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can you imagine the shitstorm if the RC had the discretion to change/shorten the course during the race!

 

I'm sure they are glad they don't have any choices there.

 

RRS AC 33 defines the process to change the course during the race. It can be done.

 

What can't be done is to shorten a match race by reducing the number of legs (RRS AC 28).

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can you imagine the shitstorm if the RC had the discretion to change/shorten the course during the race!

 

I'm sure they are glad they don't have any choices there.

 

RRS AC 33 defines the process to change the course during the race. It can be done.

 

What can't be done is to shorten a match race by reducing the number of legs (RRS AC 28).

 

ok - most of the discussion about the abandoned race has to do with whether they could have shortened it.

 

some have suggested that they shouldn't start a race if the windspeed isn't enough to finish the race.

 

i would say that the boats aren't well known enough to know whether that's the case.

 

even if it looks like the race won't be finished, they should _always_ start a race if the wind is above the minimum - the wind could increase..., allowing the race to be completed.

 

to not start until the windspeed rises to a speed at which the race could complete with no wind speed increase would bias the racing towards higher windspeed races on average, and that in itself would be considered unfair.

 

i think that given how quickly people are to accuse the RC of cheating and favoritism, the less discretion the RC has the better.

 

also , as far as bitching about the TV schedule influencing the time limit - either you want tv coverage or you don't - make up your mind...

 

all the teams benefit from the tv coverage - ETNZ has sponsors too - presumably Emirates sponsorship was in part dependent on getting their logo on TV. Even the NZ govt probably wants the TV exposure for promoting the country generally for tourism and business.

 

Additionally, I would be surprised if all teams didn't benefit directly from whatever fee was paid by NBC to broadcast this event - even if it is only offsetting the logistical costs of running the regatta.

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Yet another reason to stop watching this travesty - 25 minute races and commercials during the race.

 

Good job LE: I'm out. When I hear the Kiwi's have won, I'll watch the winning race on You Tube.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

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Just recently there's been a bit in the news about teams (mainly soccer) throwing matches on the instructions of illegal gambling syndicates.

 

Struck me that LE might have done something, hold off Jimmy for long enough for the odds to go right out, then plant a bit of his fortune on OR to win and recover all his costs.

 

Just an idle thought. . . .

Like to meet the guy brave enough to take that bet on knowing there's a potential $150 million plus payout. ;)

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Fuck! Have to work until 4 and no streaming content on work computers. I'll be starting the DVR at 20 past, and not get any spolier messages on here.

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The sailing God's will not let the Kiwi's win the cup with that chicken shit 2 race penalty. If the Kiwi's win there will be a chicken shit, poor sportsman, loser sea lawyer asterisk * behind their win.

Are you kidding douchebag????

^ Now thats funny. You, NK calling another a douchebag

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Guys, stop bitching about it: look on the bright side, we have another race to look forward tomorrow. It'll be all over soon...

 

I love your optimism. I feel better about tomorrow already.

Exactly. Odds remain hugely in TNZL's favor but we still have racing! Don't really see how either side can be bitching as much as we do.

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Word on the street here in Kiwi land is that if ETNZ wins the Cup, Oracle may be planning court action over the points deduction before the AC. Hold onto your hats people, this may go on a lot longer than the on the water racing!! It will be a dark day if the Americas Cup is won in the courtroom and not on the water.

Welcome to 1988

And 2010. LE has never REALLY won the cup...

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Additionally, I would be surprised if all teams didn't benefit directly from whatever fee was paid by NBC to broadcast this event - even if it is only offsetting the logistical costs of running the regatta.

 

NBC did not pay for broadcast rights. ACEA paid for the broadcast time, offset by $$$ from adverts sold. It seems fairly unlikely that advertising revenue will cover costs i.e. Ellison basically bought the TV coverage in the USA.

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Always enjoy the press conferences JS says that it is all about NZ versus Aus. So, all about him versus Dean, or all about him.

 

In fairness it was DB who said it was NZ versus Oz, not JS. JS expanded on the relationship between Oz and NZ, in what I would consider a pretty fair and accurate way.

 

There is no doubt there is a big on screen persona difference between the two, JS is more polished, DB seems to be much less experienced, and more reserved. I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about their real personalities from these interviews. People react in odd ways to these situations. I have no doubt that JS has been schooled in generic sportsman presentation skills. I rather doubt DB has.

 

There is a few moments of Clean interviewing JS in the 2010 ICCCC, JS comes across as pretty cool and open, but still displays much the same core sportsman persona as he shows now.

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Jiimmy Spittle wanted to increase the upper wind limit, not move the lower limit. So in yesterdays cancelled race, if that upper windlimit had increased to anything, 25kts whatever the race would have still gone ahead within the allowed window (which goes down to 3 its!!)

So ETNZ would still not quite complete the race would be pulled and the race committee would still look like clowns. In a race with average wind around 9.8kts the faster of the two boats is maybe 2-3 minutes short of finishing. Oracle was barely even halfway round!! Imagine the same race with 3kts of wind (within the limits so would have started). TeamNZ might have gotten to the first mark and TeamUSA might have crossed the starting line before the race was pulled.

Hopefully this race committee is never allowed near any Americas Cup event in the future.

 

ACRM has actually put on a very good series of races, with first class work on the water.

There have been very few snags and delays. John Craig and his crew deserve a lot of credit.

 

What went badly wrong is the "safety" changes imposed by Iain Murray,

along with the original concept of shaping the match around TV coverage.

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There was no "Hollywood". It was a straight port/starboard infringement.

 

OTUSA had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. It looked close.

 

ETNZ got it wrong and were penalised. Nothing more to see here. Time to move on.

Move on for sure. But interesting to discuss. Chris Dickson suggested it was Hollywood enhanced, any stb rights skipper would paint the call in bright colors. Would like to see the umpires room graphics if become available - the fact their confirmation took so long suggests it might have been an open question that needed a careful second look. Certainly RD in the SRM podcast, was going for a rich reward had the move been a little better judged.

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/R13-1-USA-pen-NZL.iPad_1.mp4

 

even with the big luff (the two vector arrows show a perhaps 1 sec "onionskin" view of velocity, the original grey arrow still intersects ETNZ handily...

 

edit:dip, not luff :)

 

attachicon.gifFrom Clipboard_13.jpg

ummm - the 'original grey arrow' you are referring to show the true wind direckshin at each of the two umpire botes

i'm not talking about the big wind arrows.

i'm looking at the the vectors with the boats center as their origin.

i think there are two vectors on each boats, one follows a second behind the other

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This is so ridiculous and against everything that sailing stands for. Now they can't race because the wind DIRECTION is not right? I know it's a result of not having the moving marks but, heck, put them back if you must FFS! Ironically, this is affecting precisely what they, read LE, wanted to create. After this sailing will, luckily, never become a mainstream sport. Hopefully next time around we'll have better on-line broadcasting and some niche-PPV channels where the true sailing fans can watch real races.

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This is so ridiculous and against everything that sailing stands for. Now they can't race because the wind DIRECTION is not right? I know it's a result of not having the moving marks but, heck, put them back if you must FFS! Ironically, this is affecting precisely what they, read LE, wanted to create. After this sailing will, luckily, never become a mainstream sport. Hopefully next time around we'll have better on-line broadcasting and some niche-PPV channels where the true sailing fans can watch real races.

 

 

No worries, Mate!! Kiwis will make it right next time. Smaller foiling cats and a nationality rule, hopefully. There's plenty of good sailors from all racing countries to field the teams..

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This is so ridiculous and against everything that sailing stands for. Now they can't race because the wind DIRECTION is not right?

 

Adhering to the rules agreed by competitors before the start of the series and not starting because a proper course can't be set is exactly what the RC should have done.

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This is so ridiculous and against everything that sailing stands for. Now they can't race because the wind DIRECTION is not right?

 

Adhering to the rules agreed by competitors before the start of the series and not starting because a proper course can't be set is exactly what the RC should have done.

They have such rigid, short timeframes for getting races off, ACRM should have setup two sets of WW marks.

 

Instead they sat for 100 minutes hoping a wind that was around 220 would switch 20 degrees. Just set the marks for 220 and get the effin race off

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Word on the street here in Kiwi land is that if ETNZ wins the Cup, Oracle may be planning court action over the points deduction before the AC. Hold onto your hats people, this may go on a lot longer than the on the water racing!! It will be a dark day if the Americas Cup is won in the courtroom and not on the water.

If the Kiwis win they better leave the boat in SF for a while. The dark day was the 2 point screwjob.

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The sailing God's will not let the Kiwi's win the cup with that chicken shit 2 race penalty. If the Kiwi's win there will be a chicken shit, poor sportsman, loser sea lawyer asterisk * behind their win.

Are you kidding douchebag????

Deadly serious Mate, So far the sailing God's are right on schedule.

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Please explain to me why a certain small % of Kiwi posters insist on personally attacking the character of the sailors on the opposing boats.

+10

I wish we could see an ACSF 2 in even more kickass boats but the other disappointment in AC34 has been how just how malicious the invective has been, and it's not just by a majority of the majority of posters here all along; that same maliciousness has permeated the Kiwi coverage in their press coverage too. And it's is not just the opposing team's sailors like JS, you can't find anyone involved who hasn't been ruthlessly attacked at every turn. It's been very, very ugly and it will likely poison their defense too. Very unfortunate. It is 'war' to an ugly undercurrent in that culture, but the sport of sailing just shouldn't be.

 

Glasshouses, stones.

 

>The sailing God's will not let the Kiwi's win the cup with that chicken shit 2 race penalty. If the Kiwi's win there will be a chicken shit, poor sportsman, loser sea lawyer asterisk * behind their win.

 

Enough said about glass houses. Not sure how ETNZ have been "poor sportsmen". As far as "sea lawyers" go it was IM not ETNZ that protested OTUSA for cheating. And won. Because they cheated.

 

By the way, they don't engrave asterisks on the cup, just the result.

 

If OTUSA did win, by this logic, it might read;

 

"OTUSA 9* - 8 ETNZ

* (incurred 2 race penalty)"

How proud they'll be.

 

"OTUSA 9* - 8 ETNZ

* (incurred 2 race penalty)"

How proud they'll be.

Very nice LOL

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Well said Overlord. Its the first time Ive ever seen an RC with their hands so tied because of a defenders/challengers unwillingness to alter any of the key protocols eg time limit per race. Lazza must be laughing all the way to the ATM machine.

K

 

 

 

 

You may want to revisit that one Hoggie!

 

Up until the tragic death of Bart Simpson they had mark boats as turning marks. They were computer controlled remotely by the RC and could be moved to adjust course length. It permitted the ACEA to guarantee to TV that races would finish inside the time limit.

 

After the rethink that followed Bart's untimely death the mark boats were replaced by fixed, anchored marks.

 

Hence a fixed length course and ETNZ being robbed within two minutes of finishing ...... despite excellent boat speed all the way around the course other than the luffing matches before Mark 1.

 

I am not up to speed on what was supposed to be used prior to Simpon's death. My comment was in regards to this event starting, and when I say event I mean from the beginning of the AC34 America's Cup Final Match.

 

And as JS said, he wanted to raise the wind limits and "start the race, finish the race" and the Kiwi's said no. Well if they said yes they would be taking the Cup back to NZ.

 

ETNZ and their fans have nothing to bitch about. I can understand disappointed, but pissed? Nope.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

WetHog

 

Jiimmy Spittle wanted to increase the upper wind limit, not move the lower limit. So in yesterdays cancelled race, if that upper windlimit had increased to anything, 25kts whatever the race would have still gone ahead within the allowed window (which goes down to 3 its!!)

 

So ETNZ would still not quite complete the race would be pulled and the race committee would still look like clowns. In a race with average wind around 9.8kts the faster of the two boats is maybe 2-3 minutes short of finishing. Oracle was barely even halfway round!! Imagine the same race with 3kts of wind (within the limits so would have started). TeamNZ might have gotten to the first mark and TeamUSA might have crossed the starting line before the race was pulled.

 

Hopefully this race committee is never allowed near any Americas Cup event in the future.

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There was no "Hollywood". It was a straight port/starboard infringement.

 

OTUSA had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. It looked close.

 

ETNZ got it wrong and were penalised. Nothing more to see here. Time to move on.

Move on for sure. But interesting to discuss. Chris Dickson suggested it was Hollywood enhanced, any stb rights skipper would paint the call in bright colors. Would like to see the umpires room graphics if become available - the fact their confirmation took so long suggests it might have been an open question that needed a careful second look. Certainly RD in the SRM podcast, was going for a rich reward had the move been a little better judged.

http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/R13-1-USA-pen-NZL.iPad_1.mp4

 

even with the big luff (the two vector arrows show a perhaps 1 sec "onionskin" view of velocity, the original grey arrow still intersects ETNZ handily...

 

edit:dip, not luff :)

 

attachicon.gifFrom Clipboard_13.jpg

ummm - the 'original grey arrow' you are referring to show the true wind direckshin at each of the two umpire botes

i'm not talking about the big wind arrows.

i'm looking at the the vectors with the boats center as their origin.

i think there are two vectors on each boats, one follows a second behind the other

 

Hmm - I wunder if you hav a graficks ishoo? Ennywun else see two arrows per race bote?

 

The (singel) arrows on the umpire mp4 I downloaded woud not be ewesful in determining whether the botes woud hav collided absent JSs swervs, but thay do show that the instantaneous motion ov the OR boats CoM swervd significkantly in the RONG direckshin, effecktivly trading his momentum in a well tymed lunge to try and get his bow az close to the TNZ port quarter az he coud (whitsh waz not very close, even without the subsekwent exaggerayted swerv in the RYT direckshin)

 

AFAIK the RoW bote is not supposed to tern the RONG way, but it iz allowed to wait until the last moment before (if necessary) taking avoyding ackshin by terning the RYT way.

 

However the two swerves make it more tym consewming to calculate whether the boats woud hav collided. I agree broadly with the abuv analysis which suggests a closest approach distants ov ~5m.

 

If the umpyrz had knoan abowt the crewman crossing the tramp on OR who was neerly throan overbord by JSs Hollywood, I wunder if he woud have been penalised for an unsafe and unnecessary manoover, cleerly designed to manipulayt persepshinz.

 

And, whot rylz me, for NO gane. Given that TNZ wer abowt to jybe, the penalty (as with ALL the penalteez he has inflickted, AFAIK) was pointless becoz it woz self discharging.

This is a rewl infrindjement

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^^ I've lost a race when about the same distance to the finish as ETNZ due to the time limit running out. Now it wasn't to fit a TV schedule but it was the rule.

 

Especially disappointing when everybody but us and a J24 dropped-out, and we had him by a quarter mile.

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It's more frustrating, seems Oracle is getting a lot of luck lately, that's the 3rd race that has been called off with ETNZ in the lead while Oracle hasn't had any races called off when they are in the lead.

 

The 40 minute time limit is a joke, it was created to give time for race 2 etc but it's a ridiculous situation as ETNZ was 5 minutes away from finishing and they would of won the cup....so no need for race 2.

 

I've said it before, the races that have been called off, NZ have been ahead, because for most of the racing, NZ have been ahead :)

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^^ absolutely correct snaerk, one vector per boat. i was looking at a course grid line? lat lon? that OR happened to be on during the swerve...

interesting after watching again and again that after the click on OR by the umpire that brings up their heading (and not bearing over ground i would think. that's the vector line), it doesnt change from 104 until after 9 sec, when it goes to 100 briefly before the "hollywood".

doesn't seem to show much hunting...

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I'm sorry, but I still remain dumbfounded that at this level race management can't set a course that can be completed in time.

x10

 

The course should be designed to be completed in the time limit If the wind is high enough to start the race.

 

I missed the start - did the wind drop off significantly? That seems to be the only logical explanation

Perhaps the luffs after the start ate up much more time than anyone expected. In a way those luffs saved OTUSA....Match Racing !

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I'm sorry, but I still remain dumbfounded that at this level race management can't set a course that can be completed in time.

x10

 

The course should be designed to be completed in the time limit If the wind is high enough to start the race.

 

I missed the start - did the wind drop off significantly? That seems to be the only logical explanation

Perhaps the luffs after the start ate up much more time than anyone expected. In a way those luffs saved OTUSA....Match Racing !

 

 

The luff took up no more then 2 min, teamnz was still about a min from the mark on leg 4, they wouldn't have mad it in time anyway.

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I find it really funny here in NZ where a few of my non sailing mates are surprised that DB and RD were not preparing for the time limit earlier, what the fuck were they going to do about it? Sail faster? I am pretty sure they were trying to get there as fast as they could already :blink:

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can you imagine the shitstorm if the RC had the discretion to change/shorten the course during the race!

 

I'm sure they are glad they don't have any choices there.

 

RRS AC 33 defines the process to change the course during the race. It can be done.

 

What can't be done is to shorten a match race by reducing the number of legs (RRS AC 28).

 

 

so now i have heard that RRS AC 33 is a relic from when they had moveable marks,and that the marks in use now can not be moved in any time frame that is reasonable for racing..., that they are not intended to be repositioned

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I'm sorry, but I still remain dumbfounded that at this level race management can't set a course that can be completed in time.

x10

 

The course should be designed to be completed in the time limit If the wind is high enough to start the race.

 

I missed the start - did the wind drop off significantly? That seems to be the only logical explanation

Perhaps the luffs after the start ate up much more time than anyone expected. In a way those luffs saved OTUSA....Match Racing !

 

 

The luff took up no more then 2 min, teamnz was still about a min from the mark on leg 4, they wouldn't have made it in time anyway.

Knowing the future of a changed past is impossible, as its a different time line. Had they not luffed and had the wind behaved differently and had they had their boat in a different position to respond to that wind behavior along their path to the end of the race, combined with the millions of other interacting variables, is unknowable.

 

Since OTUSA did luff ETNZ they impacted the outcome of the race so at least not to have lost it, and the cup. Match Racing !?

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^^ absolutely correct snaerk, one vector per boat. i was looking at a course grid line? lat lon? that OR happened to be on during the swerve...

interesting after watching again and again that after the click on OR by the umpire that brings up their heading (and not bearing over ground i would think. that's the vector line), it doesnt change from 104 until after 9 sec, when it goes to 100 briefly before the "hollywood".

doesn't seem to show much hunting...

 

The hedding duz not change mutsch, but the vector swings considerably DW prior to the Hwood.

 

Given that botes do not poynt where thay ar going, particularly theez botes, it iz shorely the latter whitsh iz significant.

 

It tells us wheer the bote woz Going. And wheer it woz going woz lunging towardz the uther bote.

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