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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Sarcoma

Dinghy Choices(Cat vs Mono)

82 posts in this topic

After much contemplating and help from Baltic Bandit I've come to a conclusion. I either want something like a Mps/Swift a Moth/Hoot/ or a doublehanded dinghy or skiff 505/fireball/i-14/ 12 foot. Another option seems to be A class or f-18 but I'm not quite sold on multi's yet. Budget of about 8K and would like it ti be easily trailerable and launchable riggable by one person.

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Sure, but have you considered a yacht/speedboat/dredger or indeed a hovercraft? I think you would be mad not to consider an Aston Martin, or a pet dog, for the shortlist.

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505 a great boat with fleets all over the place. Better to have two people who sail it together rig it in my opinion. I would say it is the Laser equivalent of 2-man dinghy sailing. Easy to trailer.



I tried getting someone to take me out on an F-18 in the SF Bay area but no luck. I am interested in that boat also but cant speak to it. Still a mono hull guy here until further notice.

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post-39147-0-97749200-1380051007_thumb.jpgOk, once again:

 

 

 

AC!! 5k or under, most fun you can have on the water

 

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I forgot to put that on my shortlist. As for the dredger I'll have to give that some thought before i make the jump :P

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There's IC's out your way! Or come on out and try one of mine!

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My only concern with the AC is the learning curve in terms of tacking and gybeing. I have experience with trap boats and have crewed on a 49er on a fairly terrifying 25knot day in Bellingham so that makes the musto and solo more attractive to me.

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Last time I looked a cat was not a dinghy.......

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Well by dinghy I guess I mean singlehanded or possibly doublehanded boats( Mono or Cat).

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Guys - meet Sarcoma - he's a very motivated 14yo who really want's to end up doing long distance solo racing, and my advice was to parrot Chris Nicholson - to sail as many different kinds of boats as possible. Particularly AWA boats.

 

Sarcoma - the AC/IC is another boat to consider - technical, demanding and fast. and probably the best value for $$ you can find

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Unnerstand and agree, learning curve is a deal. with what I know now, would have bought a self tacker like both mine are now, makes the curve shorter, and I would not have tried to sail it in 20 plus every first time! But the $ value is very true, my AC has receipts paid for 18k$!

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Seems like there's alot of F-18's in the area. How feasible is it for a 145 kid to singlehand one? Musto seems a good option

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if you want to race against other f18's, none... to just sail, by all means. There was a guy at the local club who used to singlehand is F18 in beercan races against M24's and other small boats. F18's are ok - but they always felt too heavy to me. im in the minority there, though.

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It seems like there's 3 methods of thought. One-Mps/solo/29er. Two-A class. Three- AC or Dc...if it exists.

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Guys - meet Sarcoma - he's a very motivated 14yo who really want's to end up doing long distance solo racing, and my advice was to parrot Chris Nicholson - to sail as many different kinds of boats as possible. Particularly AWA boats.

 

Sarcoma - the AC/IC is another boat to consider - technical, demanding and fast. and probably the best value for $$ you can find

Sarcoma you have years to learn how to sail cats & leadmines, you only have one youth to use to master the balance and anticipation that mono`s teach. Fast tippy mono skils will transfer to a fast cat later, learning an F18 will never do much skillwise for jumping onto a Musto or IC/AC.

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Ok. Thanks for the advice. Looks like musto or AC is the way to go. Is it possible to find AC's in the US under my budget?

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I dunno if you guys have seen the 18 ft skiff video of Nokia in heavy weather setting the spin when no one else would. Inspiring and insane stuff.

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I dunno if you guys have seen the 18 ft skiff video of Nokia in heavy weather setting the spin when no one else would. Inspiring and insane stuff.

That whole circuit was wild. Starting with a choppy windy Melbourne where no one could bear away & just nose dived. That first day in Bris, the Nokia vid , with the wind against tide was amazing, watching from a few boatlengths away from that mark was inspiration, annoyingly we had to rescue broken mast boat later, the next day was funny as racing could have happened but the YA types were worried anout wind swinging so after a few hours delay, the tide turned and voila big rolling waves and only 1 race(just) and the rest cancelled! Once you have sailed fast monos Sarcoma you will love the onboard vid nosedive smash of the Prudential crewman who gets thrown into the mast (ouch) in a wild nose dive.

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Awe inspiring stuff. After Prudential capsized you see the a Nokia guys sticking there tongues out at them and just fly away, legendary stuff.

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After the racing was cancelled the Nokia guys still took out a young tv presenter/ model,Holly Brisley for an afternoon kids show. Putting on her borrowed trap suit she looked a bit worried. When they came back her tounge was dragging on the ground and her eyes bigger than dinner plates! :)

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Great stuff. I have to say watching the VOR doc on YouTube those guys sailing those monsters are incredible. triple reefed, storm jib, genny pushing 30 knots.

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Much as I love Canoes I'd not recommend one for you now on the info available. In Europe I'd be saying older Moths or something but in US choice is v. limited. Maybe just get sailing on everything you can, and for boat ownership for now something less dramatic like a byte or laser or something. A big complex boat is great, goodness knows I've done plenty of that, but maintenance/management can get overwhelming...

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No AC in usa, must bring from UK, one for sale right now 2k gbp,about 3400 us dollars. My IC; USA 204 for sale here in Texas, 2500. Contact me any time to discuss!

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If its a distance thing then a Cat will win hands down, I wouldn't ever entertain anything else unless it was a slow and boring Wayfarer.

 

Never tried F18 yet, not many of those where I live;) out of all my fleet, if I had to sell all except one? I 'd keep the Hobie 16, nice solid boat and despite its old design it brings a grin to my cynical face every time I am out in a good breeze.

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You can get a good F18 for $8,000 and the cost of ownership is very low. I have sailed my 2006 Nacra Infusion for 6 full seasons and have never had anything break. The class's high minimum weight (397 pounds, all up) means that, unlike most high-performance boats, they are over-designed. An F18 is also faster and more sea-worthy that almost every other high-performance boat across a broad range of conditions. And forget the catamaran vs monohull stereotypes. An F18 will tack almost as fast as a skiff and will gybe much faster and more safely--all while not beating up the crew.

 

The downside of the F18 is that you can't really single-hand the boat and it takes two people to easily set up, launch and right. However, no beach cat should be long-distance raced single handed and a single handed cat like an A Cat isn't really very seaworthy. An alternative to an F18 if you wanted to sail at a lighter total crew weight would be an F16 like a AHPC Viper or Nacra F16, but I don't think you'll find a used one for less than $15,000, because there are no old boats around.

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After the racing was cancelled the Nokia guys still took out a young tv presenter/ model,Holly Brisley for an afternoon kids show. Putting on her borrowed trap suit she looked a bit worried. When they came back her tounge was dragging on the ground and her eyes bigger than dinner plates! :)

I am sure more than her tongue was dragging and eyes were bigger than dinner plates. Decent rack on that lass.

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.I'm not sure if you've discounted the HOOT from your list,,,,,..after chit-chating on your other thread,,I sent you a private message,,still 'unopened'...........

 

.......I hadn't realized your age and weight,,but the HOOTsailor in seattle is 17,,,,and certainly 150lb sailors have shown well on the boat.

 

................

Sent 25 September 2013 - 08:51 AM

...hi there,,,if you'd like to go for a juant on a HOOT ,,,,,there's a boat at sandpoint in seattle that I can arrange a test-sail on.
..............with 4 events in the NW this year,,and more next,,,,I'm pretty sure the HOOT is already the most active high-performance single-hander fleet in the NW!!
..........fully serviced demo boats are still available at $4200,,with a commitment that you or at least the boat attends most race events next year. ................let me know if you're interested.......michael

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Had a nice time out today on J-29 Slick. Not much competitive racing today but that'll come next week. It was nice to get to grips with kite work and that boat specifically.

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Had a nice time out today on J-29 Slick. Not much competitive racing today but that'll come next week. It was nice to get to grips with kite work and that boat specifically.

 

 

Good stuff- the J-29 is not really a "performace boat" but it's no slug, and it's rewarding to learn on. If you want to do offshore solo sailing, you have to learn every position on the boat. But a jazzy little boat like a 29er, Hoot, or IC will build skippering & speed sailing skills.

 

As for the Nokia "top gun" race, yeah almost everybody I know has seen it... it's still a classic and IMHO legendary sailing, they were giving away copies of the "18-footers greatest hits" at the Ronstan shed at boat shows and that's the part everybody remembers. I made all my friends watch it back then.

 

One of the cool things about SA is that some of the people on here, were there.

 

FB- Doug

 

 

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........................they were giving away copies of the "18-footers greatest hits" at the Ronstan shed at boat shows and that's the part everybody remembers. I made all my friends watch it back then.

 

One of the cool things about SA is that some of the people on here, were there.

 

FB- Doug

.

 

....is that the video where the mcKees got flattened by the manly ferry? :blink:

....that one rather sticks in my mind too! :mellow:

 

 

....''One of the cool things about SA is that some of the people on here, were there.''.....'really'?!!? :rolleyes:

 

.

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Yea I did some kite work. Not easy to grab sheet and put it in the pole rotate it and then hook it back on. We got a nice northerly after rounding the first mark and put in some nice medium air reaching. Hopefully in the next few weeks i'll be able to get some experience in in the back trimming and such.

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I wonder if you could score a Wylie Wabbit?

 

Or maybe a Laser Vortex, to split the difference. Might be one in Canada?

 

One of the RS single handed line?

 

Or get in touch with Ortega Kid.

 

(Sol Cat 15? 18's? Used to be some around (old but cheap I bet), might be some Boyer A class cats around, a bunch of guys bought them back what 8-10 years ago? Ditched more than a few Hobie 17's to do so...

 

If you can sail a Laser well in the winter on Puget Sound it will help a lot on planing mono hulls, esp. If you are good in waves.

 

Or go Hoot....

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If you really want to develop boat handling skills look for a skiff (pre-foiling) moth.

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+1

 

Or a lowrider skinny Moth- something like Bambi in Headlights?

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Check out this video on YouTube:

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad

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Thanks for the suggestions. I'm no sure i'm ready for a lowrider moth just yet. Wylie Wabbit seems like a nice boat but i'm looking for a tippy dinghy right now not a keelboat.

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Not as hard as you might think-

 

 

Check out this video on YouTube:

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad

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This might fit the bill, and about as close to a skiff moth that I could find on YouTube -

 

 

Check out this video on YouTube:

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad

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Maybe for the 300, but go to the top of this page and tap on the RS add!

 

And you're close Canada, which offers all sorts of goodies.

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Thanks for the suggestions. I'm no sure i'm ready for a lowrider moth just yet. Wylie Wabbit seems like a nice boat but i'm looking for a tippy dinghy right now not a keelboat.

..

 

...as I've said,there's aHOOT in seattle you can testsail-just drop a line and we can set something up with the young guy there.....m

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I'd love to do that it's just a matter of finding some time.

.

..not to mention co-ordinating with mum or dad for a 1/2 hour ride ,,co-ordinating with the guy who's got the boat,,catching a decent breeze,,,etc.........things are never easy! :rolleyes:

 

..local OPB's will give you a good inexpen$ive base on experience for now.,in the meantime-study hard,,,set yourself up well for the future,,,,,get a car-you'll need one for whatever boat yer get anyways,,,and then it'll be easy-peasy to go try a .......HOOT! :)

 

.

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Get a 505. You really want to learn to sail a big time boat it has everything you need to learn proper sail trim, rake, trap, big kite, stable in big breeze, but also light enough to get going when its light out. I personally think the boat can be single handed easily with the main up and the driver on the trap. Further, if you develop chemistry with a great teammate it is the most competitive small boat fleet on the West Coast with many of the best in the business racing them actively. Highly recommend you check it out. No matter how good you get there will be someone in the fleet better than you who is likely willing to share with you their secrets. Lastly, you can get one on the cheap and upgrade later on.

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Musto, probably more common than RS700's in the USA/Canada. This would fit the bill I reckon. Solid build and good strong sail. You want a tippy hard to sail boat? this would be ideal. Given time and patience you will have her tamed down:)

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After much contemplating and help from Baltic Bandit I've come to a conclusion. I either want something like a Mps/Swift a Moth/Hoot/ or a doublehanded dinghy or skiff 505/fireball/i-14/ 12 foot. Another option seems to be A class or f-18 but I'm not quite sold on multi's yet. Budget of about 8K and would like it ti be easily trailerable and launchable riggable by one person.

 

Guys - meet Sarcoma - he's a very motivated 14yo who really want's to end up doing long distance solo racing, and my advice was to parrot Chris Nicholson - to sail as many different kinds of boats as possible. Particularly AWA boats.

 

I don't think it matters too much which of the above he chooses as long as there are plenty of others to sail against. The better the competition is, the faster and better he'll learn.

 

I would recommend something he can actually sail, no point in wasting time in something he takes 12 months to learn to sail around a course that with a bit of experience in something else first he could have learned in a month. But most important of all is quality time on the water learning as much as he can about sail trim and boat handling in all conditions.

 

A monohull apparent wind boat is best of course as they teach a lot more about balance and general boat handling than a multi.

 

And don't forget the off–water time in the gym or other suitable exercise.

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If you want to long distance solo racing, do any open boats have much of a performance difference from a Laser in 15-25k? As an owner of a 40' cruising sled that can do 22 knots, laser/Finn skills are what I tap into, rather than moth/IC skills. A bit of sol cat racing skills.

It's more about steering waves while planing and keeping the boat on her feet, IMHO. Face it, sailing a lead mine involves limited stability. I think it's more about the hiking feel rather that a trapeze feel in bigger high performance boats. If you can handle a laser in 24-30 on the sound in big waves or chop, a big boat at sea (like Rage)

Will reward that. Thera a reason good heavy air laser sailors are in demand. Not sexy, but as elvstrom proved, if to can play with planing hiking boat in massively gnarly winter storms, you can sail anything well.

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While I have some other requites for a boat, the basic first three are easy trailering/launch, able to stand on it easily underway and hauls beer in large cooler are beginnings...and enough leverage after buying to play around a bit.

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don't forget to consider a Raider II, great monohul, fast, and can be singlehanded ro with two. Price is right in your budget

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29er ...

and how could you not take up the Hoot test ride offer ?
not serious if you pass that up

 

crew on a 14 ?

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INTERCLUB. Dare ya, mate. Brains, with beers going.

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Have a foot in each camp....get a cat and a moth....both one up sailing.

 

My two sailing pleasures -

 

Boat 1 - 16ft cat, mosquito with kite, one up, that class is not in states though so substitute an equivalent item or an older A Class for you...

 

Boat 2 - lowrider / foiler axeman moth as well, why?, must have been mad and up for the challenge when I grabbed that....

 

 

Both real kool fun but sooo..... different from each other and can sail mono or cat.

 

Both easy for one person to rig, trailer and handle.

 

I spent way less than your budget for both....should be able to do same in the states? yes?

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.

 

29er ...

and how could you not take up the Hoot test ride offer ?
not serious if you pass that up

 

crew on a 14 ?

 

 

INTERCLUB. Dare ya, mate. Brains, with beers going.

.

 

...aww,give 'im a break lads....he's 14y.o.,,,he'd be asking mum/dad to drive 'im half-hour,,,it's 'cold',,,and who knows if there'd be any wind :mellow:

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Well I have a regular ride now out on the water and some possibilities 1 being a 1d35 :P. Dunno where I'm leaning now in terms of smallish SB or 1 up dinghy. I got awhile to think about it as I don't exactly have 7 grand hanging around right now but i'm almost halfway there.

Hasn't been much wind up here couch :mellow:

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There is a 505 listed locally for $1200 here:

http://int505.org/index.php?option=com_adsmanager&page=show_category&catid=2&order=0&expand=0&Itemid=70

 

It's an older boat and who knows how it is rigged, but it sounds like it sails.

 

I've had a 505 for a few weeks (BalticBandit is being patient and helpful to me in a couple of threads) and it's been a blast so far.

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Well I have a regular ride now out on the water and some possibilities 1 being a 1d35 :P. Dunno where I'm leaning now in terms of smallish SB or 1 up dinghy. I got awhile to think about it as I don't exactly have 7 grand hanging around right now but i'm almost halfway there.

Hasn't been much wind up here couch :mellow:

.

..$4200 for one of the proto-HOOTs,,,so long as yer show up at races next year

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As I've said over and over again, if there was kite then it would be my first choice.

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All nice and quick and work...what about kicking back for a relaxing brew with latest squeeze? Ain't gonna happen with most of the rigs (which are kewl) mentioned here...

 

Where do we see the under parts of the nifty foiling Laserous?

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As I've said over and over again, if there was kite then it would be my first choice.

.

...umm,,I guess I didn't 'hear' you!! :rolleyes: ............. http://www.flickr.com/photos/59103003@N05/sets/72157637007097036/

 

 

..i's been in development in the past few weeks-actually had the chute made before I got the boats!!

...the chute won't be a standard part of the boat yet,,but everthing clips-on without fastenings.

 

...at 14yrs,,150lbs,,,you'd want to start with the base boat anyways,,get a chute later.

 

.......I've had the chute up in winds into the 20's-it's quite a ride! :blink: ..hopefully I'll get some viewable video soon....

Gale warning in effect....Wind northwest 20 to 30 knots,diminishing to north 15 to 25 early this evening. Wind veering to northeast 10 to 20 near midnight then becoming northwest 5 to 15 Monday morning. Wind increasing to northwest 20 Monday afternoon.

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Okay, mea culpa, missed the age...

 

Switch the suds to pop and squeeze to crew? I guess the open format here has me being a bit glib..

 

Am sure he got the idea. Needs a rig that lets you flop at times, especially after a few years was all I was thinking.

 

Still want to see the under side o that Laser-ous boat.

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Nice prod!!

Dunno what kite you are using, but It looks a bit high aspect ratio, and with the fine entry you have, it might cause 49er like response in breeze - ie Auuugah Auugah Dive Dive Dive!!!!

 

perhaps a kite with more TE shoulders so that when you drive down your bow goes up more?

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Couchsurfer, Thanks for pics of the "Hoot Chute" as it gave me ideas for spar on my lowly proa (outrigger) project. I was going to cut into hull, but now not so sure. Might just work it out...good place to stick busted surfer mast section...am thinking.

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BTW. Am looking for base (slight cracks) damaged long (500+) surfer masts you hear of any.

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Nice prod!!

 

Dunno what kite you are using, but It looks a bit high aspect ratio, and with the fine entry you have, it might cause 49er like response in breeze - ie Auuugah Auugah Dive Dive Dive!!!!

 

perhaps a kite with more TE shoulders so that when you drive down your bow goes up more?

.

 

.......the kite's specifically for the HOOT!,,from 'north' Kerry in Portland,,150sq,ft,,,~70% of a 29er kite.

 

...so far,,so good in 'destructive testing' so far....when the boat's powered up in high teens,it seems the hull generates a lot of lift--Chris's design has that fine bow,,but there's clearly a fullness by the mast step that engages nicely as thing speed-up!

 

...the -intention- of adding a chute is for it to enhance downwind sailing -under- 10knots of breeze,,

,...........the sailing in 20+ is a great bonus! :blink::o ,,,I'd suggest to the class as it builds that there'd be a 10-12 knot 'cap' on using it while racing,,a descision each fleet or event can make as a group ;)

 

.

>Couchsurfer, Thanks for pics of the "Hoot Chute" as it gave me ideas for spar on my lowly proa (outrigger) project. I was going to cut into hull, but now not so sure. Might just work it out...good place to stick busted surfer mast section...am thinking.

.

 

...happy to help! :)

...the prod goes in/out as the halyard goes up/down,,a la 29er,49er

,,,the prod unit simply 'clips' in place without fastenings

 

High teens is still ok for the 49er... its the 20-25 knot range with 3'+ chop that you start sending it down the mine

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Nice prod!!

 

Dunno what kite you are using, but It looks a bit high aspect ratio, and with the fine entry you have, it might cause 49er like response in breeze - ie Auuugah Auugah Dive Dive Dive!!!!

 

perhaps a kite with more TE shoulders so that when you drive down your bow goes up more?

.......the kite's specifically for the HOOT!,,from 'north' Kerry in Portland,,150sq,ft,,,~70% of a 29er kite.

 

...so far,,so good in 'destructive testing' so far....when the boat's powered up in the high teens,it seems the hull generates a lot of lift--Chris's design has that fine bow,,but there's clearly a fullness by the mast step that engages nicely as things speed-up!

 

...the -intention- of adding a chute is for it to enhance downwind sailing -under- 10knots of breeze,,

,...........the sailing in 20+ is a great bonus! :blink::o ,,,I'd suggest to the class as it builds that there'd be a 10-12 knot 'cap' on using it while racing,,a decision each fleet or event can make as a group ;)

 

 

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Couchsurfer, Thanks for pics of the "Hoot Chute" as it gave me ideas for spar on my lowly proa (outrigger) project. I was going to cut into hull, but now not so sure. Might just work it out...good place to stick busted surfer mast section...am thinking.

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...happy to help! :)

...the prod goes in/out as the halyard goes up/down,,a la 29er,49er

,,,the prod unit simply 'clips' in place without fastenings-easy to do if there's a 'lip' on your bow ;)

.

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High teens is still ok for the 49er... its the 20-25 knot range with 3'+ chop that you start sending it down the mine

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...whatever dude!..the chute's ''-intention- is for it to enhance downwind sailing -under- 10knots of breeze''

 

...I don't want it to make a new 'extreme' class--I'll leave that to others :mellow:

 

...the HOOT's place in the market is as a 'tweenie' between conventional mono-craft,,and full-on high performance...

...hiking,,1 'white-sail',,and a chute in the light stuff.....fun,,but by no-means exclusive,,

,,,,,,,,with 'room-to-grow' your skills!! ;)

 

 

...I'll make an official announcement once I manage to get some decent footage--not easy with all the variables--and what happened to y'day's gale warning anyways!

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may want to run the tackline through the pole like the 9'ers do now, otherwise the rivets eventually work loose and start tearing up the end of the pole.

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may want to run the tackline through the pole like the 9'ers do now, otherwise the rivets eventually work loose and start tearing up the end of the pole.

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........will-do,,Musto...the proto was made with the fittings I had on-hand at the time--rivets have hard-washers behind! ;)

 

 

...an important detail is to regard the deck-compression that happens at the inboard-end of the pole......

................I have some structure built-in to the deck mount to accommodate this

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my boat had the old 29er pole, with a thru-deck block. popped the kite one day at the top mark and there it was sitting on the tackline... thankfully it was at the end of the regatta. Ended up buying the new style plug, cutting the pole to keep the total length the same. Its safer for the pole, and less likely to do anything stupid.... somehow the tackline seems to be more likely to foul around the pole with a block.

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Couch - to avoid deck compression on my Laser II conversion, I ran with a permament prod that butted up against the mast base. This might be an easier solution for you as then all you need is a single pole with a butt end fitting, and then at the forestay you can go with a spectra webbing strap that goes from gun'l to gun'll. A bit more price on the pole, but with a lot of cost savings on the hull build

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my boat had the old 29er pole, with a thru-deck block. popped the kite one day at the top mark and there it was sitting on the tackline... thankfully it was at the end of the regatta. Ended up buying the new style plug, cutting the pole to keep the total length the same. Its safer for the pole, and less likely to do anything stupid.... somehow the tackline seems to be more likely to foul around the pole with a block.

 

.......no problem at all so far.

Couch - to avoid deck compression on my Laser II conversion, I ran with a permament prod that butted up against the mast base. This might be an easier solution for you as then all you need is a single pole with a butt end fitting, and then at the forestay you can go with a spectra webbing strap that goes from gun'l to gun'll. A bit more price on the pole, but with a lot of cost savings on the hull build

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.......geez--it's already a -fix-,,,,,why complicate it??......on new production there'll be a little bulkhead inside to strengthen the forestay area as well as deal with compression.

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Couch, it took ten years for the rivets to really tear the pole up. the twisting issue was rare, but highly troublesome when it happened. It is less likely to happen with the plug method instead of a block. Just my two cents/experience.

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I agree with Mustang and Baltic, your current setup spreads a lot of twisting force along a little area. It's only a question of time before the bow or the attachment starts coming apart. Having the pole mounted to the mast and the bow per Baltic's suggestion will spread the same force across a much larger area, with much greater longevity.

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As I've said over and over again, if there was kite then it would be my first choice.

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...umm,,I guess I didn't 'hear' you!! :rolleyes: ............. http://www.flickr.com/photos/59103003@N05/sets/72157637007097036/

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....haha,,,cat pee'd onyour keyboard?? :mellow:;)

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.....dad made yer promise to stay off SA??

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