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Chairman Mao

America's Cup Race 19

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Everybody keeps saying best AC ever. Granted one can't distinguish sailors from non-sailors in this forum but I never saw a race won by 1 sec in this cup, don't think I saw a change in position due to correct reading of a windshift, I saw few penalties (which are a joke anyway), not really great action during pre-starts, no passing downwind that I can remember, no sails in the water, no blocking the wind from behind when going downwind, one tiny crash...Is this really better than a mono hull regatta or even an AC45 one?

 

The current format does have an issue with the ability of the trailing boat to attack. Once the lead boat rounds mark 1, the trailing boat is unable to steal the breeze of the boat ahead. Even when the lead boat gybes and crosses clear ahead, the trailing boat still doesn't impact the lead boat's breeze.

 

That's an issue when sailing faster than the breeze. Even going downwind is going upwind.

 

Splitting from your opponent becomes the only form of attack. And given the lead boat is always going to choose the best option, the trailing boat is left with a roll of the dice.

 

Great racing all the same, however, I'd suggest the faster boat won each race. Tactics couldn't overcome a speed deficit.

 

Mex

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Here is a hearty congratulations to team ETNZ. They were a super strong very professional challenger and you got to admit they were probably responsible for both the boring preliminaries (their dominance was obvious) and the incredible finals.

 

Everyone knew that Larry's guys had some big advantages coming into this AC. Home team, experience with USA17 (FYI, I am an American but never really cared for Larry or his company - but watching Dogzilla videos when they swapped over to the wing won me over) and of course the budget for a killer shore team. The fact that ETNZ came in and made OR look slow at the start is just a huge accomplishment.

 

The excitement level and exposure in the final had to be a big payoff for the ETNZ sponsors. Given how well the team did and how much better the final was than expected, I really do hope the sponsors encourage ETNZ to not give up.

 

I also want to post a BIG thanks to the all the Kiwi posters here at SA that have complimented OR in their victory. The fact that only a couple responded poorly and so many responded so well goes a long way in turning around some of the negative image that was developing during all of the blasting prior to the last week or so.

 

And finally to Team Oracle:

  • Point 1 (most important): Thanks for putting on an AC that turned out to be The Best Boats, The Best Sailors, The Best Competition, And the Best Access for fans everywhere that the AC has ever seen.
  • Point 2 (bear with an OR fan for the following): WAY TO GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for the great come from behind victory.

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Apparently new zealand has the best sailers in the world. BULLSHIT

Yeah, that's why Larry only hired NINE (9) of them for his team.

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Everybody keeps saying best AC ever. Granted one can't distinguish sailors from non-sailors in this forum but I never saw a race won by 1 sec in this cup, don't think I saw a change in position due to correct reading of a windshift, I saw few penalties (which are a joke anyway), not really great action during pre-starts, no passing downwind that I can remember, no sails in the water, no blocking the wind from behind when going downwind, one tiny crash...Is this really better than a mono hull regatta or even an AC45 one?

 

dude your joking right? i mean almost every single one of your points actually happened. Im going to assume your not being sarcastic and answer your points.

Races weren't won by 1 second, but there were some upwind mark rounding at the exact same time, and some really close leeward mark rounding as well. id say 15 seconds is pretty damn close when your traveling 42 knts.

There were plenty of wind shift related passing, early in OR's comeback there were a few races won by benefiting from significant wind shifts, and in one of the most recent races, NZ closed a significant distance by reading the shift.

Not sure what more penalties you want, we had some great prestart luffing and contact, NZ dial down on an upwind leg, OR taking NZ up any chance they got.

No passing downwind? seriously? how about OR's cross the other day drew the penalty with starboard cross then blew right past. Or perhaps NZ huge downwind and pass during the light wind canceled race, or perhaps OR's big downwind pass in the second race on their first day of sweeping.

Hard to block wind from behind when your doing 40 knots and the apparent wind is in front of you, but i guess if you want an example of that because that "exciting" for you, look at the light wind pass NZ did in the canceled time limit race when they covered with the code zero.

Not really looking for crashes here, but there were a few, remember artemis? besides NZ almost went over as well.

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FWIW, the crowd at the IYAC in Newport cheered just as loudly for the kiwis as they crossed the line as they did for the americans as they finished to win the cup. Major respect for the team from down under who did a fantastic job almost sealing the event up in the first few days.

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Man, kudos to Dean and his team for excellent sailing. This was truly one of the most intense bad beats I've ever seen. I was totally convinced going into the series that NZ was going to take it - what a surprise.

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have a look at DB's face at that Press Conference (cant remember after which race) where JS said "just imagine they were going to loose it from here"

that thought has gotten into ETNZ heads, maybe subconsciously, but certainly

you should have seen the NZ Herald's fotos of DB, stating belief, confidence and optimism, while looking deeply concerned if not openly wondering what the f..k they could do about this

and that started at 8:2, not at 8:6!!

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Can't see another NZ challenge, and therefore LR are unlikely to compete either

Without NZ sponsors will not have such great value, and will be hard to find

So who can be bothered without these teams, which have been the lifeblood of the contest since 1987

So back to the Volvo RTW race for those who can't sail dinghies or small keelboats??

Wait, what about an ITANZ challenger??, or is it going to be a very occasional event between bored billionaires again

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OK... a bit of finish line flavor.

 

We were at the turning mark, but couldn't get too close. Oracle rounded ahead as was visible from afar so we headed to the finish line... as did tons of other boats. The coast guard clearly didn't plan for this so when the boats did their swing up past AC park, they then headed toward us who were now going to the marina by pier 32.

 

We almost became part of the event.

 

OR came rocketing down as you can see in these pix. The yellow rib jammed between us an the boat, initially sending them toward shore. But there was a boat there so they steered to port... just as that little boat you see in the latter pix turned in. OR missed them by inches. JS was on the tramp trying to do an interview and the got the fire hose and 'holeeshit' scare as his backup tried to navigate between the spectator fleet. Really. It is amazing that they didn't crash into someone. At the speed they were going (had to go), and with all the boats around... well - recipe for disaster. Coast guard need to cordon off an escape route.

 

But I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

 

Then we went to the marina just by TNZ. The silence just gutted me. Pix there too.

 

This is a cruel game.

 

But NZers won this thing. Just happen to be working for Larry.

 

OR Approaching:

IMG 1723

OR zooming us:

IMG 1725

OR almost takes out a boat while Jimmy is doing his interview:

IMG 1726

OR Past:

IMG 1726

OR way Past:

IMG 1728

Silence at TNZ: Very hard to watch as we went by.

IMG 1751

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So what did Oracle DO to their boat to run away from NZ race after race? Overnight Oracle's boat was just faster? They did not out- sail NZ, it wasn't skill or tactics that accounted for the massive wins. What was it?

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Best. AC. Ever.

Agreed. That was f'ing great.

 

Tips for Larry on hosting the next Cup...

 

1) Scale the boats down some to keep costs in line.

2) Keep the cats and the flying stuff.

3) Need between race entertainment - consider beautiful scantily clad woman sailing beach-cats or similar.

4) Raise wind limits.

5) Don't get caught cheating

6) Make it EASILY accessible to view live on the net.

7) Feel free to add your input here.

with all the fancy displays and electronics:

8) Put a wind direction marker on the screen anytime you are doing overhead shots of all forms.

9) Remove the 40min time limit

10) Upwind start

11) Boats enter the box at the same time

12) 5min in the box

13) fleet racing!

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This still hurts, I think I was prepared for OR being faster from day one and could have won this race 9-0. But after ETNZ great start I didn't believe this was possible at all.

 

Looking forward to hear the details of the modifications OR did during the finals, or was it just the control systems for the foils that probably where installed just prior to the regatta. As they increased their successful fybe ratio form 50/50 to 90/10 and also suddenly managed to control their upwind foiling in a way they never showed early on or in the early races.

 

Still think we should have at least 50 % nationals on each boat.

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hmmmm, this was not the result I wanted to see but you can't beat bucks, but ETNZ tried and tried hard.

 

Next one Mr Ellison needs to a few rule changes.

 

100% nationals of the country they sail for ................. including designers, managers and lackeys ...... everyone.

The boats need to have some cost limits imposed ...... call it salary cap but the TOTAL cost needs to be controlled, you cant beat dollars

 

and most of all ...... NO CHEATING .... no 2 races penalties for cheating but TOTAL exclusion

 

and please, give credit to the foreign nationals (aliens as you call them) you have onboard and on the pay roll ..... there are too many kiwis, aussie and poms for it to be called Team USA

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Best. AC. Ever.

Agreed. That was f'ing great.

 

Tips for Larry on hosting the next Cup...

 

1) Scale the boats down some to keep costs in line.

2) Keep the cats and the flying stuff.

3) Need between race entertainment - consider beautiful scantily clad woman sailing beach-cats or similar.

4) Raise wind limits.

5) Don't get caught cheating

6) Make it EASILY accessible to view live on the net.

7) Feel free to add your input here.

with all the fancy displays and electronics:

8) Put a wind direction marker on the screen anytime you are doing overhead shots of all forms.

9) Remove the 40min time limit

10) Upwind start

11) Boats enter the box at the same time

12) 5min in the box

13) tell us which boat the onboard audio is coming from, like f1 does with team radio)

14) tweak the sail area to wing area ratio so that gennakers are regularly deployed downwind

15 get as much footage of previous cups and challenger series to put on youtube like has been done with the volvo race

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FWIW, the crowd at the IYAC in Newport cheered just as loudly for the kiwis as they crossed the line as they did for the americans as they finished to win the cup. Major respect for the team from down under who did a fantastic job almost sealing the event up in the first few days.

The 'american'

 

both boats had mostly Kiwis on board

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Yea. USA USA USA our Kiwis's are better than yours.

 

FWIW, the crowd at the IYAC in Newport cheered just as loudly for the kiwis as they crossed the line as they did for the americans as they finished to win the cup. Major respect for the team from down under who did a fantastic job almost sealing the event up in the first few days.

The 'american'

 

both boats had mostly Kiwis on board

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FWIW, the crowd at the IYAC in Newport cheered just as loudly for the kiwis as they crossed the line as they did for the americans as they finished to win the cup. Major respect for the team from down under who did a fantastic job almost sealing the event up in the first few days.

The 'american'

 

both boats had mostly Kiwis on board

 

According to the crew list from yesterday you are wrong about both boats had "mostly Kiwi's" on it.

 

OR's crew list for yesterday's final race:

 

Skipper: Jimmy Spithill (9) - Aussie

Tactician: Ben Ainslie (12) - Brit

Strategist: Tom Slingsby (10) - Aussie

Wing trimmer: Kyle Langford (8) - Aussie

Jib trimmer: Joe Newton (5) - Aussie

Off-side trimmer: Rome Kirby (4) - 'merican

Grinders: Shannon Falcone (1) - Antiqua

Joe Spooner (2) - Kiwi

Jono MacBeth (3) - Kiwi

Gillo Nobili (6) - Italy

Simeon Tienpont (7) - Dutch

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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FWIW, the crowd at the IYAC in Newport cheered just as loudly for the kiwis as they crossed the line as they did for the americans as they finished to win the cup. Major respect for the team from down under who did a fantastic job almost sealing the event up in the first few days.

The 'american'

 

both boats had mostly Kiwis on board

 

According to the crew list from yesterday you are wrong about both boats had "mostly Kiwi's" on it.

 

OR's crew list for yesterday's final race:

 

Skipper: Jimmy Spithill (9) - Aussie

Tactician: Ben Ainslie (12) - Brit

Strategist: Tom Slingsby (10) - Aussie

Wing trimmer: Kyle Langford (8) - Aussie

Jib trimmer: Joe Newton (5) - Aussie

Off-side trimmer: Rome Kirby (4) - 'merican

Grinders: Shannon Falcone (1) - Antiqua

Joe Spooner (2) - Kiwi

Jono MacBeth (3) - Kiwi

Gillo Nobili (6) - Italy

Simeon Tienpont (7) - Dutch

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

Best crew money (Larry) can buy.

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People need to stop bitching about the expense and this notion of one design. The AC is, and has always been about design and technology, big boats and deep pockets.

 

And it should stay that way.

 

I'm also tired of hearing that we didn't have 10 or 15 boats in the LVC. Who gives a shit? The AC is about 1 defender racing 1 challenger. Period. How the challenger is selected is somewhat immaterial to the AC itself, and the defender is under no obligation to weaken its hand by granting concessions that make it more affordable or easier for just anyone to compete.

 

If you want that kind of racing, buy a Melges 32, a Swan 42 or a goddam FT10M, and have it. Just don't call the America's Cup.

 

I also don't like the F1/NASCAR approach, and I absolutely hate the corporate naming rights and sponsor logos slapped over every square inch of available space. They make these beautiful boats look like cheap hookers parading around a second rate casino, peddling their wares to all and sundry for the best price they can get.

 

Rant over. I now return you to your regular broadcast.

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As an American sailor faced with cheering for an "American" team that had almost no Americans on it, I can definitely support some form of the nationality rule. However, given that New Zealand and Australia's sailors seem to have a sailing skill advantage, that would tilt the game in their direction...so how do we balance that? Here's an idea - since the America's Cup is also (and perhaps predominately) a technology race, why not have all of the design team be nationals AND all of the raw materials, hardware, sails, etc. part of the nationality rule. If a country doesn't manufacture carbon fiber, that team can't use it. Same with sails, winches, control systems, whatever. Yeah - I know, wouldn't be fair, would eliminate some countries, etc. Well then, here's another idea - how about if we trade our advantage in materials and technology for your advantage in sailors - we'll supply you with materials and technology and you supply us with sailors...oh wait, that's what we're doing now...

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As an American sailor faced with cheering for an "American" team that had almost no Americans on it, I can definitely support some form of the nationality rule. However, given that New Zealand and Australia's sailors seem to have a sailing skill advantage, that would tilt the game in their direction...so how do we balance that? Here's an idea - since the America's Cup is also (and perhaps predominately) a technology race, why not have all of the design team be nationals AND all of the raw materials, hardware, sails, etc. part of the nationality rule. If a country doesn't manufacture carbon fiber, that team can't use it. Same with sails, winches, control systems, whatever. Yeah - I know, wouldn't be fair, would eliminate some countries, etc. Well then, here's another idea - how about if we trade our advantage in materials and technology for your advantage in sailors - we'll supply you with materials and technology and you supply us with sailors...oh wait, that's what we're doing now...

 

Whining over dacron back in the day started the process of allowing 'off the shelf' or 'universally available' materials to be used by anybody no matter what country it was developed in.

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As an American sailor faced with cheering for an "American" team that had almost no Americans on it, I can definitely support some form of the nationality rule. However, given that New Zealand and Australia's sailors seem to have a sailing skill advantage, that would tilt the game in their direction...so how do we balance that? Here's an idea - since the America's Cup is also (and perhaps predominately) a technology race, why not have all of the design team be nationals AND all of the raw materials, hardware, sails, etc. part of the nationality rule. If a country doesn't manufacture carbon fiber, that team can't use it. Same with sails, winches, control systems, whatever. Yeah - I know, wouldn't be fair, would eliminate some countries, etc. Well then, here's another idea - how about if we trade our advantage in materials and technology for your advantage in sailors - we'll supply you with materials and technology and you supply us with sailors...oh wait, that's what we're doing now...

 

Whining over dacron back in the day started the process of allowing 'off the shelf' or 'universally available' materials to be used by anybody no matter what country it was developed in.

Now we're whining over sailors - why can't they be "off the shelf and universally available" - oh wait - they are...

 

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FWIW, the crowd at the IYAC in Newport cheered just as loudly for the kiwis as they crossed the line as they did for the americans as they finished to win the cup. Major respect for the team from down under who did a fantastic job almost sealing the event up in the first few days.

The 'american'

 

both boats had mostly Kiwis on board

 

According to the crew list from yesterday you are wrong about both boats had "mostly Kiwi's" on it.

 

OR's crew list for yesterday's final race:

 

Skipper: Jimmy Spithill (9) - Aussie

Tactician: Ben Ainslie (12) - Brit

Strategist: Tom Slingsby (10) - Aussie

Wing trimmer: Kyle Langford (8) - Aussie

Jib trimmer: Joe Newton (5) - Aussie

Off-side trimmer: Rome Kirby (4) - 'merican

Grinders: Shannon Falcone (1) - Antiqua

Joe Spooner (2) - Kiwi

Jono MacBeth (3) - Kiwi

Gillo Nobili (6) - Italy

Simeon Tienpont (7) - Dutch

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

Best crew money (Larry) can buy.

 

Remember, in the modern era (post 1958) Bondy started this by hiring an American tactician. (Andy Rose IIRC)

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People need to stop bitching about the expense and this notion of one design. The AC is, and has always been about design and technology, big boats and deep pockets.

 

And it should stay that way.

 

I'm also tired of hearing that we didn't have 10 or 15 boats in the LVC. Who gives a shit? The AC is about 1 defender racing 1 challenger. Period. How the challenger is selected is somewhat immaterial to the AC itself, and the defender is under no obligation to weaken its hand by granting concessions that make it more affordable or easier for just anyone to compete.

 

If you want that kind of racing, buy a Melges 32, a Swan 42 or a goddam FT10M, and have it. Just don't call the America's Cup.

 

I also don't like the F1/NASCAR approach, and I absolutely hate the corporate naming rights and sponsor logos slapped over every square inch of available space. They make these beautiful boats look like cheap hookers parading around a second rate casino, peddling their wares to all and sundry for the best price they can get.

 

Rant over. I now return you to your regular broadcast.

Totally agree. I like the spectacle of lots of teams, and I enjoy the drama of a competitive LVC, but the America's Cup, to me, will *always* be about the technological arms race and an epic one-on-one battle.

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As an American sailor faced with cheering for an "American" team that had almost no Americans on it, I can definitely support some form of the nationality rule. However, given that New Zealand and Australia's sailors seem to have a sailing skill advantage, that would tilt the game in their direction...so how do we balance that? Here's an idea - since the America's Cup is also (and perhaps predominately) a technology race, why not have all of the design team be nationals AND all of the raw materials, hardware, sails, etc. part of the nationality rule. If a country doesn't manufacture carbon fiber, that team can't use it. Same with sails, winches, control systems, whatever. Yeah - I know, wouldn't be fair, would eliminate some countries, etc. Well then, here's another idea - how about if we trade our advantage in materials and technology for your advantage in sailors - we'll supply you with materials and technology and you supply us with sailors...oh wait, that's what we're doing now...

 

The Chinese have zero interest in the cup, why'd you tilt things in their favor?

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