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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

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L124C

Crash at Big Boat Seires Saturday (SF)?

142 posts in this topic

I was at the BBS Saturday and saw a older boat owner and (was told) 3 other sailors taken to the hospital with relatively minor injury's. Several fire trucks and a couple of paramedic trucks at the SFYC. Supposedly, a boat hooked a mark. Anyone know the details?

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Today a J120, Chance and M24, Rock n roll had a serious incident.

A sportscar and a dump truck!! Wonder who won that one

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.

 

...I hope everyone's allright :huh:

 

.

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m24 rounded up into chance yesterday, collision ensued, skipper knocked out cold and broke his back.

 

also saw a collision today in the harbor-- crew tried to stop it with their arm, and they were left with a broken arm. Never a good idea. Stay safe folks

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Why are 24footers sailing in a "Big Boat" series ?

They appear big compared to J70s.

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the sporties wanted to sail because of the stellar race mgmt, competition and good breeze. the regatta wanted em because there aint many "big boats" left. get it?

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Why are 24footers sailing in a "Big Boat" series ?

.

 

.....'big' fleet!

 

.

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.

 

...I hope everyone's allright :huh:

 

.

 

+1

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Why are 24footers sailing in a "Big Boat" series ?

.

 

.....'big' fleet!

 

.

I guess that with the GFC and all noone can afford big boats. Soo how long before a Kiwi blames LE and expensive cats have also ruined the big boat series ?

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m24 rounded up into chance yesterday, collision ensued, skipper knocked out cold and broke his back.

 

also saw a collision today in the harbor-- crew tried to stop it with their arm, and they were left with a broken arm. Never a good idea. Stay safe folks

.

 

.....that sounds terrible :(

 

.

 

 

 

Why are 24footers sailing in a "Big Boat" series ?

.

 

.....'big' fleet!

 

.

I guess that with the GFC and all noone can afford big boats. Soo how long before a Kiwi blames LE and expensive cats have also ruined the big boat series ?

.

 

....ummmm,,,,,,,,'GFC' ??? :mellow:

 

.

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Why are 24footers sailing in a "Big Boat" series ?

.

 

.....'big' fleet!

 

.

I guess that with the GFC and all noone can afford big boats. Soo how long before a Kiwi blames LE and expensive cats have also ruined the big boat series ?

All right. I will play your stupid game. LE fucked sailing all over the world!!!!!

 

BTW 2 Gold and 1 Silver to Kiwi crews at the 49 and 49FX Worlds :P:P:P:P:P

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m24 rounded up into chance yesterday, collision ensued, skipper knocked out cold and broke his back.

 

also saw a collision today in the harbor-- crew tried to stop it with their arm, and they were left with a broken arm. Never a good idea. Stay safe folks

.

 

.....that sounds terrible :(

 

.

 

>

 

Why are 24footers sailing in a "Big Boat" series ?

.

 

.....'big' fleet!

 

.

I guess that with the GFC and all noone can afford big boats. Soo how long before a Kiwi blames LE and expensive cats have also ruined the big boat series ?

.

 

....ummmm,,,,,,,,'GFC' ??? :mellow:

 

.

 

HaHa sorry i meant gods reaction to Obama being voted dang well in.

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Why are 24footers sailing in a "Big Boat" series ?

.

 

.....'big' fleet!

 

.

I guess that with the GFC and all noone can afford big boats. Soo how long before a Kiwi blames LE and expensive cats have also ruined the big boat series ?

All right. I will play your stupid game. LE fucked sailing all over the world!!!!!

 

BTW 2 Gold and 1 Silver to Kiwi crews at the 49 and 49FX Worlds :P:P:P:P:P

Yep plus another solid victory by the All Blacks = all iz gud.

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....ummmm,,,,,,,,'GFC' ??? :mellow:

 

.

 

HaHa sorry i meant gods reaction to Obama being voted dang well in.

.

 

...oh.

..........let me know how that works out for you <_<

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m24 rounded up into chance yesterday, collision ensued, skipper knocked out cold and broke his back.

also saw a collision today in the harbor-- crew tried to stop it with their arm, and they were left with a broken arm. Never a good idea. Stay safe folks

The old guy I saw was sitting up (doesn't sound like a broken back) with some facial injury's. Maybe more than one incident Saturday.

 

OMG...sailing is dangerous! Better consult the CG, maybe airbags are in order. At least some wind limits! : )

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....ummmm,,,,,,,,'GFC' ??? :mellow:

 

.

 

HaHa sorry i meant gods reaction to Obama being voted dang well in.

.

 

...oh.

..........let me know how that works out for you <_<

TBH i would love the O man as our Prime Minister and would gladly swap him for our Phoney Tony, only 4 years to go and the public will either reject him ..or the oposition may have got their act together & we can have an exciting election again as ours was less interesting than the LV series and a bigger walkover!!.

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From the Hedgehog FB page, looks like Argyle is ok, but crew Charlie was injured and recovering, but won't be racing in the m24 worlds. :-(.

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TBH i would love the O man as our Prime Minister and would gladly swap him for our Phoney Tony, only 4 years to go and the public will either reject him ..or the oposition may have got their act together & we can have an exciting election again as ours was less interesting than the LV series and a bigger walkover!!.

.

...your political commentary doesn't seem to fit with this thread. :mellow:

 

...it sounds like someone was -seriously- hurt at this event.

 

 

 

 

 

....maybe try political anarchy,,,,,,,or 'don't give an F' anarchy <_<;)

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From the Hedgehog FB page, looks like Argyle is ok, but crew Charlie was injured and recovering, but won't be racing in the m24 worlds. :-(.

.

 

....one of these is the fellow who hurt his back?

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The M24 doesn't look to badly damaged:

1383199_658198077532909_913695709_n.jpg

Thought the Megles rounded up INTO the other boat. Wonder how this happened. Maybe this was the harbor incident?

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Talked to Argile yesterday, he said his crew Charlie had been hit in the head during the accident and had compressed some vertabra, leaving him out of sailing for a little while. he Argile said he recieved a couple of stitches to the face for his trouble. aparently the 120 came out of no where just as they were rounding the leward mark.

thats all i know?

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Talked to Argile yesterday, he said his crew Charlie had been hit in the head during the accident and had compressed some vertabra, leaving him out of sailing for a little while. he Argile said he recieved a couple of stitches to the face for his trouble. aparently the 120 came out of no where just as they were rounding the leward mark.

thats all i know?

..

 

....alls fun until someone crunches their vertebrae! :mellow:

 

............may you heal well and fast,,Argie!

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more details coming in now.

 

Charlie Enright has a fucked up back but will be OK in 6 weeks or so. He is back home resting.

 

Argyle got an uppercut to the jaw from who knows what. 11 stitches but he is driving the boat OK.

 

A few other cuts and scrapes.

 

As for race management...the M24 course was set inside the big boat course, and starboard tack from the bottom mark of the big boats took you through the M24 fleet. Rock N Roll was on starboard gybe, headed to bottom mark a few boatlengths away, about to drop the kite. J/120 was coming upwind on starboard. J/120 tactician told driver there were no other boats. M24 didn't see J/120 around the kite. J/120 crushes M24. M24 wrong for w/l. J/120 wrong for failure to avoid, more importantly or failure to keep a lookout.

 

RnR DNF, J/120 given no penalty, though thankfully their request for redress was denied. J/120 didn't stop to give assistance, they continued on their way once untangled.

 

Jeremy Wilmot flew in to take over Charlie's tactician duties. Big Boat might want to let their Big Boat owners know that they are setting Little Boat courses inside the big ones.

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The M24 doesn't look to badly damaged:

1383199_658198077532909_913695709_n.jpg

Thought the Megles rounded up INTO the other boat. Wonder how this happened. Maybe this was the harbor incident?

 

The harbor incident was between two big boats, a cruiser returning from a afternoon cruise and a racing boat docking, both under motor.

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Quote from the boat behind "It was the most violent boat crash I've ever seen."

 

J/120 was caught in a pile of M24s coming into a mark rounding. Bad situation to be in, but exactly the kind of thing that happens when courses between very different kinds of boats overlap.

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Other quotes from M24 sailors:

 

"We had a nice close quarters with the MOD too, some of the most fun racing ever with all the different boats out there."

 

"Lighter than a midsummer event but planing in pretty much every race and great weather."

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Just because you've gotten away with it in the past doesn't mean that these overlapping courses are a great idea. In fact, I defy you to show me one boat owner that enjoys it. It's the only regatta on the bay that week, and YOU invited the Melgi. Don't you think that you owe them a course that they can compete on as an OD without having to play dodgeball with 3-5 other fleets? There is ALWAYS room for improvement.

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Calm down indeed...you're frothing again Joanie.

 

It isn't that difficult to look at the horses and the courses and know that it's in no ones best interest to have multiple fleets rounding the same mark from different directions. Nothing is perfect, and like I suggested before, there is always room for improvement. You just have to have an open mind.

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One brilliant young pro sailor in hospital with cracked vertebra because the 'big boat' fleets are not used to figuring out how to avoid five 24-foot boats all within a boatlength of each other. If this was in Lake Garda you'd be screaming for blood.

 

Indeedie do?

 

Get fucked.

 

you are down to 50 biggish boats. You needed to add 50 little boats to prevent the event from all but disappearing. operating under the same rules is fine, so long as you don't mind a young pro sailor nearly being paralyzed and a lifelong one-design sailor nearly having his jawbone ripped out. Of course shit happens, and it's the PRO's job to try to prevent it where practicable and to address it when it happens.

 

You really intend to not address this at all? Given the lack of video and photo and news of the crash, it certainly seemed that way, and knowing you and ND quite the surprise. Goes on the front page tonight now that I've spoken to the injured and a few witnesses.

 

My view is that the Melges was at fault under the rules, largely because it's impossible to see under the spinnaker a lot of the time, the J/120 was at fault for not anticipating what happens in a tight one-design fleet on his bow and possibly for not doing what he could to avoid contact, and I don't know whether the RO was at fault because I am still confused where the 120 was going; was it the same mark but after they went down to another one first? Do the Melges sail a shorter course for BBS?

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Does it matter that the injured is a pro sailor in a sport boat fleet? And the other is a life long one design sailor?

To Clean, apparently, yes.

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The M24 doesn't look to badly damaged:

1383199_658198077532909_913695709_n.jpg

a light dish shaped hull and small rudder means the boat will go with the impact lessening the damage. The crew however may be worse off for it. Sorry to hear people were injured.

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Does it matter that the injured is a pro sailor in a sport boat fleet? And the other is a life long one design sailor?

To Clean, apparently, yes.

I was a bit confused by that as well. It's such a shame an amateur sailor wasn't hurt instead.

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Deleted comments as well - same reason as BobJ

 

My comments were not aimed at the incident itself. It was an unfortunate accident and I wish everyone a speedy recovery.

 

No need for threats/blackmail (and Alan, you still owe me $250.00 over a previous threat/blackmail)

 

The constant bashing of people, regattas, and the sport gets old.

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the constant defensiveness gets old too.

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Seems a lot of sailiors are getting hurt / killed in and offshore of San Fran!!

 

 

What's up out there????

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...............My view is that the Melges was at fault under the rules, largely because it's impossible to see under the spinnaker a lot of the time,,,,,,

.

 

....if that were true,I'd be expecting -many- more incidents when melges are on the course. :mellow:

 

.....methinks it's a matter of due diligence....usually you can soak down occasionally,flatten out ,take a peek,,no?

 

.

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So, aside from the obvious issues with both vessels failing to maintain a proper lookout, is it not worth a discussion about inter fleet/course/mark conflicts potentially impacting results? Or is that just something that we have to live with, because it's the way things have always been run? I understand that we have limited RC assets, I just wonder if there s something that we're overlooking.

 

For example, if there were once again a permanent (as can be anyway) Yellow Bluff mark, would it help to keep boats on the north courses away from the Presidio Shoals marks and running into, over, and through the J70 fleet?

 

I'm just asking questions here, because I like fair racing, not a big fan of collisions.

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One brilliant young pro sailor in hospital with cracked vertebra because the 'big boat' fleets are not used to figuring out how to avoid five 24-foot boats all within a boatlength of each other.

Is a "brilliant young pro sailor" a better person than, say a "old, pretty decent, amateur" sailor?

Why the distinction?

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...............My view is that the Melges was at fault under the rules, largely because it's impossible to see under the spinnaker a lot of the time,,,,,,

.

 

....if that were true,I'd be expecting -many- more incidents when melges are on the course. :mellow:

 

.....methinks it's a matter of due diligence....usually you can soak down occasionally,flatten out ,take a peek,,no?

 

.

 

When sailing the Etchells, we can often not see other boats on the course behind the sails. That doesn't abslove us of the responsibility to make sure we know when someone is approaching from there, and we make sure that we do just that.

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is it not worth a discussion about inter fleet/course/mark conflicts potentially impacting results

Apparently that is the kind of question that makes those in power run and hide. much easier than answering questions!

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Is a "brilliant young pro sailor" a better person than, say a "old, pretty decent, amateur" sailor?

Why the distinction?

Those are simply adjectives. If you choose to see them as a delineation or a distinction, that might be your own brain talking. The 'old, amateur' sailor was driving the boat, and he had 11 stitches across his chin/jaw.

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Sorry clean but you seem to forgive any sexy fast boats because "that is the future" a course within a course is totally normal in the UK. And a sail being in the way isnt a good enough reason for hitting someone! What should actually be written is that they were so bothered about going fast that they didn't try and keep a proper look out! A "pro" should know better, If you are selling your services hopefully you do more than just boatspeed.

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Krispy Kreme.... Member since Jan, 2004.

 

Too bad.

 

Another SA'er who won't comment for a few months but will lurk more than ever. How unusual.

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Sorry clean but you seem to forgive any sexy fast boats because "that is the future" a course within a course is totally normal in the UK. And a sail being in the way isnt a good enough reason for hitting someone! What should actually be written is that they were so bothered about going fast that they didn't try and keep a proper look out! A "pro" should know better, If you are selling your services hopefully you do more than just boatspeed.

Neither boat saw the other one. The J/120 made NO COURSE ALTERATIONS according to two witnesses on two different boats, even though if they had seen the M24, they would only have had to pinch up a bit to let them around the bow.

 

In other words, neither boat had a proper lookout, and the right-of-way boat made no effort to avoid a collision, because they didn't know one was imminent.

 

After untangling itself from the M24, the J/120 sailed on, and then went and asked for redress. It seems the BBS jury didn't ask about 'proper lookouts'.

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Mr Clean; would you please cite me the section of the RRS that describes a proper lookout? I do know that COLREGs discuss proper lookout but I am not a knowledgeable in the RRS as you are.

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Mr Clean; would you please cite me the section of the RRS that describes a proper lookout? I do know that COLREGs discuss proper lookout but I am not a knowledgeable in the RRS as you are.

CASE 107

A boat that is not keeping a lookout may thereby fail to do everything reasonably possible to avoid contact. Hailing is one way that a boat may ‘act to avoid contact’. When a boat’s breach of a rule of Part 2 causes serious damage and she then retires, she has taken the applicable penalty and is not to be disqualified for that breach.

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Decision
Rule 14 begins ‘A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible.’ This requirement means a boat must do everything that can reasonably be expected of her in the prevailing conditions to avoid contact.
This includes keeping a good lookout, particularly in a crowded starting line situation.
The protest committee concluded that if either boat had seen the other a collision could have been avoided, even at the last minute, particularly if Ephesian had hailed Jupa when it was clear that Jupa was not changing course to keep clear. Until that moment, rule 14(a) allows a right-of-way boat to delay acting to avoid contact. It follows that at that moment she must begin to act in an effort to avoid contact. The word ‘act’ is not restricted to changing course or speed. Hailing was an action that Ephesian could and should have taken. Ephesian broke rule 14. Because the collision resulted in damage, the protest committee’s decision to disqualify Ephesian was correct (see rules 14(B) and 64.1(a)). Her appeal is therefore dismissed.
Clearly, Jupa broke rule 10. As a result of the serious damage she suffered in the collision, she retired from the race and thus took the applicable penalty (see rule 44.1(B)). Rule 64.1(B) prohibits penalizing her further. The disqualification of Jupa is reversed and she is to be scored DNF.

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So, aside from the obvious issues with both vessels failing to maintain a proper lookout, is it not worth a discussion about inter fleet/course/mark conflicts potentially impacting results? Or is that just something that we have to live with, because it's the way things have always been run?

.

 

.....I've always considered navigating through multi-fleets to be 'part of the game' in the rat-race that is yacht-racing.

...only in a major championship of a major fleet would I expect/hope for -sterile- conditions

 

.

 

Neither boat saw the other one. The J/120 made NO COURSE ALTERATIONS according to two witnesses on two different boats, even though if they had seen the M24, they would only have had to pinch up a bit to let them around the bow.

 

In other words, neither boat had a proper lookout, and the right-of-way boat made no effort to avoid a collision, because they didn't know one was imminent.

.

...'professional' sailors indeed...........another oxymoron?? <_<

 

.

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Still trying to figure out how the boat going upwind on starboard didn't see the boat coming downwind on starboard. It's not as if the boat coming downwind would have somehow been hidden under the jib of the boat headed upwind. Seems more likely that the failure to avoid a collision by the boat headed upwind was an error of judgment.

 

Also not sure how the M24 course being 'inside" the big boat course differs in the number of potential collisions, from any other course where there are a lot of boats going through the leeward gate in quick succession. Say for example this was a one design regatta where one boat had just rounded the gate and was headed upwind on starboard...into a pack of boats coming downwind on starboard. Happens all the time. That windward boat needs to keep clear. The leeward boat should be keeping an eye out too.

 

If the point is just that boats of very different size don't belong on the same course, because one of them takes a beating when there is a collision, that's a story as old as the sea, nothing new here. Lesson: small light boats without right of way should keep a good lookout.

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Still trying to figure out how the boat going upwind on starboard didn't see the boat coming downwind on starboard. It's not as if the boat coming downwind would have somehow been hidden under the jib of the boat headed upwind. Seems more likely that the failure to avoid a collision by the boat headed upwind was an error of judgment.

 

Also not sure how the M24 course being 'inside" the big boat course differs in the number of potential collisions, from any other course where there are a lot of boats going through the leeward gate in quick succession. Say for example this was a one design regatta where one boat had just rounded the gate and was headed upwind on starboard...into a pack of boats coming downwind on starboard. Happens all the time. That windward boat needs to keep clear. The leeward boat should be keeping an eye out too.

 

If the point is just that boats of very different size don't belong on the same course, because one of them takes a beating when there is a collision, that's a story as old as the sea, nothing new here. Lesson: small light boats without right of way should keep a good lookout.

I'm told that the tactician of the J/120 was asked 'are we clear' and he said 'yes' because he didn't realize there was a boat obstructed by the one that he did see but knew would cross ahead. I imagine their version will filter down sooner or later. There's also some GoPro footage floating around but I can't find the holder at the moment.

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Is a "brilliant young pro sailor" a better person than, say a "old, pretty decent, amateur" sailor?

Why the distinction?

Those are simply adjectives. If you choose to see them as a delineation or a distinction, that might be your own brain talking. The 'old, amateur' sailor was driving the boat, and he had 11 stitches across his chin/jaw.

Now, now Mr. Clean: caught out with your own language, you try to disown it as if it's without meaning. What was the purpose of using those adjectives unless you meant to emphasize that the injured sailor was in fact young, a pro and brilliant? Either be a more careful writer, or take responsibility for what you write. Not surprising that this website is the defendant in a libel suit, when its writers take the attitude that they need not be responsible for the meaning of their words.

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Is a "brilliant young pro sailor" a better person than, say a "old, pretty decent, amateur" sailor?

Why the distinction?

Those are simply adjectives. If you choose to see them as a delineation or a distinction, that might be your own brain talking. The 'old, amateur' sailor was driving the boat, and he had 11 stitches across his chin/jaw.

Now, now Mr. Clean: caught out with your own language, you try to disown it as if it's without meaning. What was the purpose of using those adjectives unless you meant to emphasize that the injured sailor was in fact young, a pro and brilliant? Either be a more careful writer, or take responsibility for what you write. Not surprising that this website is the defendant in a libel suit, when its writers take the attitude that they need not be responsible for the meaning of their words.

Precisely what responsibility does using those adjectives carry with it, pray tell?

 

Do you infer some meaning beyond the facts that Charlie is in fact young, brillant, and a pro? What if I had said he was 'brown-haired, of medium build, and quite attractive?" Would that somehow imply that I think ugly people are at fault?

 

-confused in st. clair

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So how is having an obstructed view "Not Keeping a LookOut?" seems to me that applies to the idjit who can't see under his kite

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So, aside from the obvious issues with both vessels failing to maintain a proper lookout, is it not worth a discussion about inter fleet/course/mark conflicts potentially impacting results? Or is that just something that we have to live with, because it's the way things have always been run?

.

 

.....I've always considered navigating through multi-fleets to be 'part of the game' in the rat-race that is yacht-racing.

...only in a major championship of a major fleet would I expect/hope for -sterile- conditions

 

.

an style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">

 

Neither boat saw the other one. The J/120 made NO COURSE ALTERATIONS according to two witnesses on two different boats, even though if they had seen the M24, they would only have had to pinch up a bit to let them around the bow.

 

In other words, neither boat had a proper lookout, and the right-of-way boat made no effort to avoid a collision, because they didn't know one was imminent.

.

...'professional' sailors indeed...........another oxymoron?? <_<

 

.

 

 

+1

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Jesus H Christ on a corn chip-

 

2 people were seriously injured- both parties were at fault.

 

The race course didn't cause this, the RC didn't cause this, the two drivers lost the big picture and what resulted was an unfortunate, untimely meeting between 2 boats.

 

Why does everyone feel the need to attempt to lessen their culpability by shifting blame to another?

 

It's akin to blaming ones parents for their problems... HTFU-

 

There's a mixed fleet, big boats and small boats, you're flying into the leeward mark, boats are exiting the gate going upwind- pretty good time to assume there may be a couple boat on boat issues approaching- same goes for the boat exiting-

 

It's unfortunate but blaming a yc or event chair for a collision on the water is just weak.

 

Shit happens-

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So how is having an obstructed view "Not Keeping a LookOut?" seems to me that applies to the idjit who can't see under his kite

Yeah I don't get that: you're on stbd going hard upwind and about to round a mark (?) in a situation where you can plainly see other boats and are probably even figuring out your own rounding based on the other boat's location, speed & probable tactics when something pops up out of nowhere and suddenly it's your fault as the stbd & leeward boat? I suppose an argument could be made that the 120 could have contemplated that the m24 in front (obscuring the m24 behind) could not see them and should have anticipated manuevering on that basis but how could the 120 anticipate that an m24 that the 120 did not even know was there (obsured behind the m24 in front) was going to manuever in an unexpected fashion?

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Just more garbage from the "National Inquirer" of the sailing world, as it continues its headlong rush to irrelevance.

 

 

Why does everyone feel the need to attempt to lessen their culpability by shifting blame to another? It's akin to blaming one's parents for their problems...

It's unfortunate but blaming a yc or event chair for a collision on the water is just weak.

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Jesus H Christ on a corn chip-

 

2 people were seriously injured- both parties were at fault.

 

The race course didn't cause this, the RC didn't cause this, the two drivers lost the big picture and what resulted was an unfortunate, untimely meeting between 2 boats.

 

Why does everyone feel the need to attempt to lessen their culpability by shifting blame to another?

 

It's akin to blaming ones parents for their problems... HTFU-

 

There's a mixed fleet, big boats and small boats, you're flying into the leeward mark, boats are exiting the gate going upwind- pretty good time to assume there may be a couple boat on boat issues approaching- same goes for the boat exiting-

 

It's unfortunate but blaming a yc or event chair for a collision on the water is just weak.

 

Shit happens-

+1

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.

...sure 'shit happens',,,but it's not very comforting to see such a lack of vigialence....

 

...especially as the speedier high-perf sporties are gaining prevalence.

 

 

 

...once ws witness to a 49er crew being somewhat -skewered- by a spinn-pole-----NOT PRETTY :unsure:

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Just more garbage from the "National Inquirer" of the sailing world, as it continues its headlong rush to irrelevance.

 

+1

 

Nice move throwing the M32-Opti confrontation into this mix, Alan.

But, nowhere have you mentioned one of the worst offenders in that mess and lo and behold you are now responsible for their website.

Good for you!

Just don't try to pass yourself off as a fair and impartial observer.

Your agenda is clear.

 

BTW, perhaps the modifer BIG is now intended for the SERIES and not the BOAT.

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Come on Clean.

 

It was an accident. Accidents happen. Shitty for all involved. In terms of assumptions it was likely a relatively high closing speed with the J120 in the M24's blind spot. Sorry for all those injured. Get better soon.

 

Knowing nothing else for certain what we do know is coming into this accident it was the Melges obligation to keep clear. And, the J120 need not take any avoiding action until it is clear the Melges is not keeping clear.

 

What the J120 did or did not see is not a known fact. What the J120 could or could not have done is not a known fact. It's simply speculation.

 

It's all too lawyer for me. No one wants to be in such a shitty collision but to imply it's as much the fault of the J120 without being there is a bridge too far. People make mistakes and sometimes there's no one else to blame.

 

Not being there I'm going to blame the lack of window in the M24 kite - there, I said it. It's been bugging me. Let the shit fly.

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To be clear, CHANCE should have retired - see rule 44.1b - and stood by, due to the obvious damage and injuries. To go on and finish (and even ask for redress) tells me the local J/120 fleet needs to talk about its reputed uber-competitiveness, vis-a-vis the RRS.

 

But that's not what the Bald Ego is on about. He, like Scot, uses the incident to attack yet another premier regatta. Maybe their goal is to make SA a cruisers' site?

 

 

(Edit - stupid emoticons)

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s for race management...the M24 course was set inside the big boat course, and starboard tack from the bottom mark of the big boats took you through the M24 fleet. Rock N Roll was on starboard gybe, headed to bottom mark a few boatlengths away, about to drop the kite. J/120 was coming upwind on starboard. J/120 tactician told driver there were no other boats. M24 didn't see J/120 around the kite. J/120 crushes M24. M24 wrong for w/l. J/120 wrong for failure to avoid, more importantly or failure to keep a lookout.

 

RnR DNF, J/120 given no penalty, though thankfully their request for redress was denied. J/120 didn't stop to give assistance, they continued on their way once untangled.

 

Jeremy Wilmot flew in to take over Charlie's tactician duties. Big Boat might want to let their Big Boat owners know that they are setting Little Boat courses inside the big ones.

 

'Failure to keep a lookout'?

 

Fucking really, clean? I mean fucking really? Why wasn't the Melges keeping a lookout? Why is that just the J's responsibility? I'd venture a guess the Melges was going twice the speed of the J, too.

 

We've certainly never see a windward / leeward collision like this before between similarly sized boats. No, it must just be due to their different sizes that this collision occured.

 

You tried to claim ignorance of scooters total shit reporting on the America's cup. But you're no better. Your shit stirring is riduculous, and while you don't have enough shame left in you to realize it, everyone who reads this type of bullshit certainly does.

 

Oh my, how revisionist history goes.

 

In other words, neither boat had a proper lookout, and the right-of-way boat made no effort to avoid a collision, because they didn't know one was imminent.

 

What, did you suddenly realize how BIG a cock you were being when you just accused the J? Quick, tell us again how it was the different sizes that caused this mess.

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Precisely what responsibility does using those adjectives carry with it, pray tell?

 

Do you infer some meaning beyond the facts that Charlie is in fact young, brillant, and a pro? What if I had said he was 'brown-haired, of medium build, and quite attractive?" Would that somehow imply that I think ugly people are at fault?

 

-confused in st. clair

Your incessant jock sniffing of the "pro" fleets is just lame. Its amazing how just plain wrong you guys see the world. Its like you WANT everyone to hate you. Guess you just want to drive traffic through controversy. I guess that works, but it really isn't original, or value add in any way.

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To be clear, CHANCE should have retired - see rule 44.1b - and stood by, due to the obvious damage and injuries. To go on and finish (and even ask for redress) tells me the local J/120 fleet needs to talk about its reputed uber-competitiveness, vis-a-vis the RRS.

 

But that's not what the Bald Ego is on about. He, like Scot, uses the incident to attack yet another premier regatta. Maybe their goal is to make SA a cruisers' site?

 

 

(Edit - stupid emoticons)

 

as far as retiring - only if they broke a rule - presumably 14 in this case - .., and they obviously maintain they didn't

 

an accident with damage or injury doesn't, by itself mean a boat has to retire

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s for race management...the M24 course was set inside the big boat course, and starboard tack from the bottom mark of the big boats took you through the M24 fleet. Rock N Roll was on starboard gybe, headed to bottom mark a few boatlengths away, about to drop the kite. J/120 was coming upwind on starboard. J/120 tactician told driver there were no other boats. M24 didn't see J/120 around the kite. J/120 crushes M24. M24 wrong for w/l. J/120 wrong for failure to avoid, more importantly or failure to keep a lookout.

 

RnR DNF, J/120 given no penalty, though thankfully their request for redress was denied. J/120 didn't stop to give assistance, they continued on their way once untangled.

 

Jeremy Wilmot flew in to take over Charlie's tactician duties. Big Boat might want to let their Big Boat owners know that they are setting Little Boat courses inside the big ones.

 

'Failure to keep a lookout'?

 

Fucking really, clean? I mean fucking really? Why wasn't the Melges keeping a lookout? Why is that just the J's responsibility? I'd venture a guess the Melges was going twice the speed of the J, too.

 

We've certainly never see a windward / leeward collision like this before between similarly sized boats. No, it must just be due to their different sizes that this collision occured.

 

You tried to claim ignorance of scooters total shit reporting on the America's cup. But you're no better. Your shit stirring is riduculous, and while you don't have enough shame left in you to realize it, everyone who reads this type of bullshit certainly does.

 

Oh my, how revisionist history goes.

 

In other words, neither boat had a proper lookout, and the right-of-way boat made no effort to avoid a collision, because they didn't know one was imminent.

 

What, did you suddenly realize how BIG a cock you were being when you just accused the J? Quick, tell us again how it was the different sizes that caused this mess.

did you miss the part where i said the melges was at fault, and would have been DSQ had they finished the race? convenient.

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Pretty cheap shot throwing COLREGS into this. I would argue that the J/120 is the "more burdened" vessel.

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That is one of my points...COLREGS is NOT the RRS. We NORMALLY dont race under COLREGS, unless meeting boats that are NOT RACING, there is nothing in the NOR or SIs that say COLREGs.

 

That is like the state troopers monitoring speeds during the indy 500. All boats have a duty to avoid colisions, but the happen even to the best sailors, more often to the worse ones - they all are often serious, i am sorry that people got hurt, but you do a huge disservice by throwing COLREG definitions, terms and rules into a RRS discussion.

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That is one of my points...COLREGS is NOT the RRS. We NORMALLY dont race under COLREGS, unless meeting boats that are NOT RACING, there is nothing in the NOR or SIs that say COLREGs.

 

That is like the state troopers monitoring speeds during the indy 500. All boats have a duty to avoid colisions, but the happen even to the best sailors, more often to the worse ones - they all are often serious, i am sorry that people got hurt, but you do a huge disservice by throwing COLREG definitions, terms and rules into a RRS discussion.

 

 

Thank you . I knew your question was provocative and you had the answer. This was simple W/L or P/S where people got careless. All the speculation without any witnesses or facts found is the usual Mr.C circle jerk. Saying a winward boat with a spinnaker is less manouverable and gains right of way because of it is RETARDED. Better to have separate courses? Yes. Is it going to happen enough to make everyone happy? No. Existing rules cover it. We had a guy TBone a mark boat at full speed while tuning this weekend as the MB was stationairy and setting the pin rior a race. Stuff is going to happen when people dont pay attention.

 

And saying the M32 / Opti situation in Lake Garda was not 'dangerous' is just plain moronic. Even some of the paisanos on board admitted it was regretted it.

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Who was wrong here?

post-8857-0-08267000-1381175875_thumb.jpg

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I was the doing mid bow on Chance on this race and was fully part of this incident. Although I admit that we did not alter course enough, we felt we were well leward enough from the melgi's mark to allow them to round in front of us. We were looking out for smaller boats however and the furthest forward bow man did call to head up in the incident however because of the large size of our vessel and the speed the the melges darted infrequent of us we were unable to avoid. Skippers on other J120s commented that "it was like dodging flies out there", referring to the melges erratic often unpredictable sailing. Similar to the incident between the melges 32 and the opti flee earlier this summer I feel like the fleet as so competitive that they are willing to risk danger to win.

 

Although I feel like this was a bad incidents, I am surprised this is the first incident like this, and I feel like the melges community as a whole is partially to blame as they regard so safety seems to be lacking. I understand the need for competitiveness, having done years of match racing I know about taking close calls for the win, but when its 20 knots and your planning down wind on the edge of control some caution does need to be taken.

 

Thanks for the first hand account. I'm glad you weren't injured and that as bad as the other guys were hurt, I'm glad it wasn't worse.

 

I'm not sure that I would paint Melges sailors as more unsafe than other competitive one-design classes. I would say that they develop a tunnel-vision that is much more pronounced than other classes. That said, stereotypes often exist for a reason and the Lake Garda video didn't show a couple of J/70's plowing through a bunch of kids.

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On the bright side, look how many boats didn't crash the weekend of the BBS.

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What I really admire about the editors of SA is their ability to effortlessly judge the mood of their target audience and say what everyone is thinking.

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What I really admire about the editors of SA is their ability to effortlessly judge the mood of their target audience and say what everyone is thinking.

It would be so much easier to simply make up sh*t.

Oh, wait...

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Must not be a lot of sailing news this Monday of Clean is stirring his one sided dingy boat agenda.......

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Jesus H Christ on a corn chip-

 

2 people were seriously injured- both parties were at fault.

 

The race course didn't cause this, the RC didn't cause this, the two drivers lost the big picture and what resulted was an unfortunate, untimely meeting between 2 boats.

 

Why does everyone feel the need to attempt to lessen their culpability by shifting blame to another?

 

It's akin to blaming ones parents for their problems... HTFU-

 

There's a mixed fleet, big boats and small boats, you're flying into the leeward mark, boats are exiting the gate going upwind- pretty good time to assume there may be a couple boat on boat issues approaching- same goes for the boat exiting-

 

It's unfortunate but blaming a yc or event chair for a collision on the water is just weak.

 

Shit happens-

I'l second that opinion.

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What amazed me about this article is that the J120 collided with a smaller boat and after they disentangled themselves form the M24 sheets they went back on the race course and finished 5th. What a bunch of unadulterated BS! From the article it sounds as if it was carnage on the M24 and all that the capt and crew of the J120 could think about was getting back into THEIR race! Under those circusmatnes, I would suggest that not only should have the J120 been DSQ'd they should have been banned from racing for significant period. At a minimum, sportsmanship should have kicked in and the crew should have been asisting the crew of the smaller boat until assistance arrived. Beyond that, proper seamanship would have dictated that they should have offered assistance without question. If the M24 was taking on water and the crew was disabled, what would the J120 do if the boat had sunk? I think the 'win at all cost' crap that exists in high stakes sailboat racing today is absurd, it cheapens the sport and lowers the participants as evidenced by this incident.

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What amazed me about this article is that the J120 collided with a smaller boat and after they disentangled themselves form the M24 sheets they went back on the race course and finished 5th. What a bunch of unadulterated BS! From the article it sounds as if it was carnage on the M24 and all that the capt and crew of the J120 could think about was getting back into THEIR race! Under those circusmatnes, I would suggest that not only should have the J120 been DSQ'd they should have been banned from racing for significant period. At a minimum, sportsmanship should have kicked in and the crew should have been asisting the crew of the smaller boat until assistance arrived. Beyond that, proper seamanship would have dictated that they should have offered assistance without question. If the M24 was taking on water and the crew was disabled, what would the J120 do if the boat had sunk? I think the 'win at all cost' crap that exists in high stakes sailboat racing today is absurd, it cheapens the sport and lowers the participants as evidenced by this incident.

 

I think you're jumping to an awful lot of confusion. Nowhere in the write-up does it say what transpired as they were disentangling themselves, what was said between the two boats, when other help arrived, etc. You just want to show how righteous you are.

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What amazed me about this article is that the J120 collided with a smaller boat and after they disentangled themselves form the M24 sheets they went back on the race course and finished 5th. What a bunch of unadulterated BS! From the article it sounds as if it was carnage on the M24 and all that the capt and crew of the J120 could think about was getting back into THEIR race! Under those circusmatnes, I would suggest that not only should have the J120 been DSQ'd they should have been banned from racing for significant period. At a minimum, sportsmanship should have kicked in and the crew should have been asisting the crew of the smaller boat until assistance arrived. Beyond that, proper seamanship would have dictated that they should have offered assistance without question. If the M24 was taking on water and the crew was disabled, what would the J120 do if the boat had sunk? I think the 'win at all cost' crap that exists in high stakes sailboat racing today is absurd, it cheapens the sport and lowers the participants as evidenced by this incident.

 

I think you're jumping to an awful lot of confusion. Nowhere in the write-up does it say what transpired as they were disentangling themselves, what was said between the two boats, when other help arrived, etc. You just want to show how righteous you are.

Hardly the case asshole, I'm responding to what I read, if you have additional information, please provide it. here's a question for you, what would you have done in that situation if you were on the J120? Incidentally, the term is 'self-righteous'

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What amazed me about this article is that the J120 collided with a smaller boat and after they disentangled themselves form the M24 sheets they went back on the race course and finished 5th. What a bunch of unadulterated BS! From the article it sounds as if it was carnage on the M24 and all that the capt and crew of the J120 could think about was getting back into THEIR race! Under those circusmatnes, I would suggest that not only should have the J120 been DSQ'd they should have been banned from racing for significant period. At a minimum, sportsmanship should have kicked in and the crew should have been asisting the crew of the smaller boat until assistance arrived. Beyond that, proper seamanship would have dictated that they should have offered assistance without question. If the M24 was taking on water and the crew was disabled, what would the J120 do if the boat had sunk? I think the 'win at all cost' crap that exists in high stakes sailboat racing today is absurd, it cheapens the sport and lowers the participants as evidenced by this incident.

 

I think you're jumping to an awful lot of confusion. Nowhere in the write-up does it say what transpired as they were disentangling themselves, what was said between the two boats, when other help arrived, etc. You just want to show how righteous you are.

Hardly the case asshole, I'm responding to what I read, if you have additional information, please provide it. here's a question for you, what would you have done in that situation if you were on the J120? Incidentally, the term is 'self-righteous'

 

I don't have additional information, which is why I'm choosing not to condemn the crew of the J/120. I've made a choice not to jump to conclusions. In that situation, were I on the J/120, after making sure everyone on my boat was safe and accounted for and that we were disentangled, I'd communicate with the Melges to determine their status. Based on their answer and the immediate presence of other support, should it be needed, I would then make a determination of whether to continue on with my race. Yes I know, a complex answer to a complex situation.

 

Incidentally, you pedantic prig, the term is righteous. If I had intended to say something along the lines of, "You just want to show everyone how smug and holier than thou you are," I would have said self-righteous. But just as you don't actually know what happened in the aftermath of the collision, you don't have a clue what my intentions were.

 

Your lazy attempt at criticism, that on the other-hand was self-righteous.

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Sad to hear of the injuries, but I will wait to see the video of this mess.

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It's very simple, after many years on this site the status quo is that whenever a Melges is involved, they have done no wrong.

 

I have sailed sporties long enough and in much bigger fleets on mixed courses in small areas (Hong Kong Harbour anyone?) to know that you constantly need to keep a look out due to your speed and manoeuvrability especially downwind.

It sucks that people were hurt but the leeward boat bears responsibility and the only thing worse than the indignance of teh front page piece is the people that say 'Shit happens'.

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What if I had said he was 'brown-haired, of medium build, and quite attractive?" Would that somehow imply that I think ugly people are at fault?

No, but you would not have faired well in the gay test.

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It's very simple, after many years on this site the status quo is that whenever a Melges is involved, they have done no wrong.

 

I have sailed sporties long enough and in much bigger fleets on mixed courses in small areas (Hong Kong Harbour anyone?) to know that you constantly need to keep a look out due to your speed and manoeuvrability especially downwind.

It sucks that people were hurt but the leeward boat bears responsibility and the only thing worse than the indignance of teh front page piece is the people that say 'Shit happens'.

Both boats bear responsiblity to avoid collision. But leeward is ROW so how does this exonerate the windward boat?

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It's very simple, after many years on this site the status quo is that whenever a Melges is involved, they have done no wrong.

 

I have sailed sporties long enough and in much bigger fleets on mixed courses in small areas (Hong Kong Harbour anyone?) to know that you constantly need to keep a look out due to your speed and manoeuvrability especially downwind.

It sucks that people were hurt but the leeward boat bears responsibility and the only thing worse than the indignance of teh front page piece is the people that say 'Shit happens'.

Both boats bear responsiblity to avoid collision. But leeward is ROW so how does this exonerate the windward boat?

I'm not exonerating the windward boat- on rereading it is not as clear as I had hoped in that my comment was more in light of previous comments which seemed to place all responsibility on the J.

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Who was wrong here?

Holy shit, never seen that picture before.

 

Anybody got any details??

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That is one of my points...COLREGS is NOT the RRS. We NORMALLY dont race under COLREGS, unless meeting boats that are NOT RACING, there is nothing in the NOR or SIs that say COLREGs.

 

That is like the state troopers monitoring speeds during the indy 500. All boats have a duty to avoid colisions, but the happen even to the best sailors, more often to the worse ones - they all are often serious, i am sorry that people got hurt, but you do a huge disservice by throwing COLREG definitions, terms and rules into a RRS discussion.

Decision

Rule 14 begins ‘A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible.’ This requirement means a boat must do everything that can reasonably be expected of her in the prevailing conditions to avoid contact.

This includes keeping a good lookout, particularly in a crowded starting line situation.

The protest committee concluded that if either boat had seen the other a collision could have been avoided, even at the last minute, particularly if Ephesian had hailed Jupa when it was clear that Jupa was not changing course to keep clear. Until that moment, rule 14(a) allows a right-of-way boat to delay acting to avoid contact. It follows that at that moment she must begin to act in an effort to avoid contact. The word ‘act’ is not restricted to changing course or speed. Hailing was an action that Ephesian could and should have taken. Ephesian broke rule 14. Because the collision resulted in damage, the protest committee’s decision to disqualify Ephesian was correct (see rules 14( B) and 64.1(a)). Her appeal is therefore dismissed.

Clearly, Jupa broke rule 10. As a result of the serious damage she suffered in the collision, she retired from the race and thus took the applicable penalty (see rule 44.1( B)). Rule 64.1( B) prohibits penalizing her further. The disqualification of Jupa is reversed and she is to be scored DNF.

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It seems to me that the International Jury decided who was at fault based on the accounts from the representatives and witnesses from each boat. Rather than guessing who was at fault, why not simply use the decision that was made by professionals in possession of all the facts?

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It seems to me that the International Jury decided who was at fault based on the accounts from the representatives and witnesses from each boat. Rather than guessing who was at fault, why not simply use the decision that was made by professionals in possession of all the facts?

 

Because bullshit and speculation is better for website performance analytics especially when fighting a big lawsuit

and you are out begging for money to pay your legal bills. Other than that, you're right!

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That is one of my points...COLREGS is NOT the RRS. We NORMALLY dont race under COLREGS, unless meeting boats that are NOT RACING, there is nothing in the NOR or SIs that say COLREGs.

 

That is like the state troopers monitoring speeds during the indy 500. All boats have a duty to avoid colisions, but the happen even to the best sailors, more often to the worse ones - they all are often serious, i am sorry that people got hurt, but you do a huge disservice by throwing COLREG definitions, terms and rules into a RRS discussion.

Decision

Rule 14 begins ‘A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible.’ This requirement means a boat must do everything that can reasonably be expected of her in the prevailing conditions to avoid contact.

This includes keeping a good lookout, particularly in a crowded starting line situation.

The protest committee concluded that if either boat had seen the other a collision could have been avoided, even at the last minute, particularly if Ephesian had hailed Jupa when it was clear that Jupa was not changing course to keep clear. Until that moment, rule 14(a) allows a right-of-way boat to delay acting to avoid contact. It follows that at that moment she must begin to act in an effort to avoid contact. The word ‘act’ is not restricted to changing course or speed. Hailing was an action that Ephesian could and should have taken. Ephesian broke rule 14. Because the collision resulted in damage, the protest committee’s decision to disqualify Ephesian was correct (see rules 14( B) and 64.1(a)). Her appeal is therefore dismissed.

Clearly, Jupa broke rule 10. As a result of the serious damage she suffered in the collision, she retired from the race and thus took the applicable penalty (see rule 44.1( B)). Rule 64.1( B) prohibits penalizing her further. The disqualification of Jupa is reversed and she is to be scored DNF.

 

Clean - this isn't really relevant, as it's clear the 120 _did_ see the other boats.., so there is no issue of keeping a proper lookout.

 

the geometry of a boat on starboard going upwind (L) vs a boat on starboard going downwind (W) virtually assures this - the 120 probably had 8 people on the rail that saw the group of melges. if the boat they eventually hit was hidden behind other boats, that's a separate issue.

 

in any case the crew member says they saw them.

 

as someone who actually steers a boat - there are a few things i would want to know before passing judgement here (and if i were the 120 owner i would _not_ be answering questions here).

 

you need to remember that under rule 16, the ability of the ROW boat to maneuver (in this case L, the 120) is actually _more_ restricted in this situation, than that of the giveway boat (W, the melges) and it can be a bit scary.

 

not only does L not have to alter course until it is clear that W is not keeping clear..., but it's actually safer if they don't.

 

one big question, is whether the melges were altering course as they converged with the 120... planing boats alter course quite a bit on a run.

 

what was the exact geometry of the group of melges? did they all pass in front of the 120? did some pass behind? the 120 was an obstruction for the melges... was there an issue of room to pass an obstruction?

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