• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

MR.CLEAN

AC 35 Challengers - Who's Coming To The Dance?

327 posts in this topic

Who do you think will make it to San Francisco whoever pays the biggest package in 2016 or 17?

 

1) Hamilton Island Yacht Club - Bob Oatley, Principal. A surprise for many but with Iain Murray aboard and perhaps a quiet partner to address the fact that Oatley is a small financial fish compared to Ellison/Bertelli/Tornqvist, could be a very strong challenger.

 

2) KSSS - Torborn Tornqvist, Principal. On record as saying he loved it, and said to have Nath O on contract and Percy retained to take over for tragic Cayard. A sentimental favorite that couldn't really do any worse than in AC34, nowhere to go but up.

 

3) CN de Lorient or maybe CN De Paris? Franck Cammas, Principal. With financial behemoth Groupama unable to spend big money for PR reasons (after losing hundreds of millions and firing thousands and thousands of people), Franck has been looking for money for AC35 for "more than a year" as he told me on Wednesday. He is part of the way there, but will be wearing suits very often for the next few months as he goes hunting for money. It would be great to see him together with the Peyrons on the search for cash considering how screwed the french economy is, but I'm told they don't play nice together; in fact I am told Cammas doesn't play nice at all and that's why he crushes his competition in everything he enters.

 

4) Luna Rossa?

 

5) ETNZ?

 

6) Alinghi?

 

7) Team China?

 

8) Team Korea?

 

Got any other ideas?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I expect it could be well attended.

 

UK - BA team,

Aussies,

NZ,

French - Cammas, groupama

second USA team

korea

china

possibly a UAE funded group

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has always been a rich man’s game. Thing is these days there are plenty more rich people who could buy a seat in the theatre.

What’s $100m, really if you have (in LE’s case) $48 000m? My yacht club fees are more in relative terms.

 

Bob Oatley is only #27 on the Aussie rich list, the guy who is #2 just bought himself a $25m boat(he’s a Packer). If we say he is the minimum level of wealth required, then it’s basically open to all the dollar billionaires. Forbes has about 1500 dollar billionaires in 2013(and that’s excluding heads of state like the gulf states). I wouldn’t be surprised if the gulf nations get really into it, no shortage of ca$h there and this would be a much bigger drawcard than a Volvo stop.

 

The AC72 was a serious technology coup. Larry must have loads of enemies who would just love to beat him at his own game in his own backyard. Apple has something silly like $150bn in cash lying around in their war chest, imagine dropping $0.1bn on a campaign calling it the iFoiler and integrating app everything onto it? Paul Allen got his fingers burnt before, but this looks more fun now.

 

So you just need 8/9 guys with big egos out of a grouping of 1500. Who even needs the corporates? I don’t see cost really being an issue, it’s a marketing thing if you do it right. They will spend loads of time setting out process for AC35.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this turns out to be a four-year cycle with the AC Match in fall 2017 and costs don't drop dramatically you will need at least 100 million euros to have a decent chance at winning it.

 

Who can convince a European big multinational to put even 50 million euros on the table? I don't think there is anybody...

Honestly, I don't see any European team other than Artemis and Luna Rossa right now.
As for the Asians, it's even tougher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you just need 8/9 guys with big egos out of a grouping of 1500. Who even needs the corporates? I don’t see cost really being an issue, it’s a marketing thing if you do it right. They will spend loads of time setting out process for AC35.

 

 

And that's the sort of blue-sky thinking we heard at the start of the AC34 cycle. It didn't turn out that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where is Sir Dame Keith Mills in all this? Still suffereing from post-Olympic hangover, or could he hitch his wagon to Sir Ben Ainsle's recent, and earned, meteoric rise in AC circles?

 

WetHog :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GroupAma might well. Do a joint deal with Orange. Or Areva doing a Greenwashing by highlighting its wind energy efforts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Groupama wouldn't even think of this kind of spend for the foreseeable future. If you understood what's been going on in France, you'd get it.

 

Has to be someone else, and with France in the kind of trouble the US was back in '08/'09 or so, you can understand why it's such a tough sell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If this turns out to be a four-year cycle with the AC Match in fall 2017 and costs don't drop dramatically you will need at least 100 million euros to have a decent chance at winning it.

 

Who can convince a European big multinational to put even 50 million euros on the table? I don't think there is anybody...

Honestly, I don't see any European team other than Artemis and Luna Rossa right now.
As for the Asians, it's even tougher

 

NO way this will be a 4-year cycle. New venue, totally new boat class, new media production system, new regatta rules and it was all done over a 3-year period. Expect AC35 in 2016 unless they simply don't think they can go in an Olympic year (personally, I don't think LE will put too much concern regarding the Olympics this time around).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There quire simply isn't the $100m required in France, Britain, Australia or New Zealand. China and Korea might "brand a team" but they are not going to pay for one, they have much better things to do with $100m than spend it on sailing. Had ETNZ won and changed the rules for nationality and lower budgets I suspect all those countries (UK, FR, Oz) would have entered a team plus Alinghi

 

Keith MIlls pulled out of the 34th cup early, as soon as he saw the real costs and not the low ones claimed by Ellison

 

Camas can win the C-class and make lots of noise as can Sir Ben but as it stands the UK and France cannot raise $25m for the Volvo never mind much more than that for the AC. This cup shows that despite having a very very good (the best ?) sailing team and a long track record in the AC $100m isn't enough, once Oracle got going they swept the series.

 

For a $100m you can do Formula 1 and get plenty of support from global tv and sponsors. India and Malaysia are in F1, China and Korea could well follow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There quire simply isn't the $100m required in France, Britain, Australia or New Zealand.

 

And you aren't the only person to realise it. Both LE and RC have made similar noises. Of course, they did that early in the AC34 cycle too. We shall see. There's actually precious little to discuss at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(personally, I don't think LE will put too much concern regarding the Olympics this time around).

 

His rumoured CoR may take another view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If this turns out to be a four-year cycle with the AC Match in fall 2017 and costs don't drop dramatically you will need at least 100 million euros to have a decent chance at winning it.

 

Who can convince a European big multinational to put even 50 million euros on the table? I don't think there is anybody...

Honestly, I don't see any European team other than Artemis and Luna Rossa right now.
As for the Asians, it's even tougher

This is wrong. In fact at the present time there is a very good chance finding Sponsors in Asia easier than in the US or Europe. China for example has the fastest tracking Economy to date.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

(personally, I don't think LE will put too much concern regarding the Olympics this time around).

 

His rumoured CoR may take another view.

 

Maybe.

 

I could actually even see them doing AC35 in 2015 before they would want to do it in 2017. We'll see. I do think they will try to get the ACWS rolling in 2014. 3 years of ACWS, then the LV & AC. Is that a long-term viable plan? I guess maybe more viable than only 1 year of ACWS then the LV / AC. I would think they would much prefer doing 2 years of ACWS then the LV / AC year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

As for the Asians, it's even tougher

This is wrong. In fact at the present time there is a very good chance finding Sponsors in Asia easier than in the US or Europe. China for example has the fastest tracking Economy to date.

 

 

We heard that repeatedly during the AC34 cycle. I expected TK to get sponsorship together as it seemed such a fit to the Korean shipbuilding industry. It didn't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

As for the Asians, it's even tougher

This is wrong. In fact at the present time there is a very good chance finding Sponsors in Asia easier than in the US or Europe. China for example has the fastest tracking Economy to date.

 

 

We heard that repeatedly during the AC34 cycle. I expected TK to get sponsorship together as it seemed such a fit to the Korean shipbuilding industry. It didn't happen.

That's more because China & Korea doesn't have good Boat Builders, Sailors, etc. Every Big Sporting Event is going to Asia these Days. Half of the Formula One Grand Prix going to Asia. On the WTA Tennis Circle many Tournaments are being moved to Asia despite Serena Williams being No 1 at the present time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

As for the Asians, it's even tougher

This is wrong. In fact at the present time there is a very good chance finding Sponsors in Asia easier than in the US or Europe. China for example has the fastest tracking Economy to date.

 

 

We heard that repeatedly during the AC34 cycle. I expected TK to get sponsorship together as it seemed such a fit to the Korean shipbuilding industry. It didn't happen.

 

Totally agree. I REALLY thought both Samsung and Hyundai are perfectly suited to jump into the game, and the game would be pocket lint to those giants. Really was a dissappointment they did not get in. BUT, maybe the finals in AC34 will be enough to convince them that the AC game is an up-and-comer that would be good for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's more because China & Korea doesn't have good Boat Builders, Sailors, etc. Every Big Sporting Event is going to Asia these Days. Half of the Formula One Grand Prix going to Asia. On the WTA Tennis Circle many Tournaments are being moved to Asia despite Serena Williams being No 1 at the present time.

 

 

Yes and the Chinese gamble on (British) Premiership Football in a huge way. That doesn't mean they sponsor football teams.

 

In any case, although I'm sure China will continue to outgrow the west, there are good reasons to believe the days of double-digit growth are over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Groupama wouldn't even think of this kind of spend for the foreseeable future. If you understood what's been going on in France, you'd get it.

 

Has to be someone else, and with France in the kind of trouble the US was back in '08/'09 or so, you can understand why it's such a tough sell.

 

France wishes it was in the kind of trouble that the US was back in 08/09.

They have a much more structural problem. This accompanied by an ethos which disapproves of people who make money means that any private wealth wants to be as inconspicuous as possible or move to Belgium. AC is not inconspicuous.

 

Damn shame because the French are fantastic sailors and enliven any regatta.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Totally agree. I REALLY thought both Samsung and Hyundai are perfectly suited to jump into the game, and the game would be pocket lint to those giants. Really was a dissappointment they did not get in. BUT, maybe the finals in AC34 will be enough to convince them that the AC game is an up-and-comer that would be good for them.

 

It doesn't sound like you understand how many tens of thousands of people are already targeting both Samsung and Hyundai's money. They may be a perfect fit for an AC team, but are there any money spenders at these two firms who have the least bit of interest in paying up for an AC team? What's in it for them? Risk? Uncertainty? Negative public reaction? Potential awesomeness, if like this AC half the pundits are wrong?

 

In Oracle's case, I wonder if they found Red Bull or Red Bull found them?

 

Koukel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^

 

That would be the GBR dream team but it doesn't seem all that likely given that Percy has signed up to Artemis for AC35. Good piece though from the Torygraph. Cue Insider to remind us it's all about the money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the French problems because here in Italy it is even worse. Unfortunately the economic situation doesn't suggest any AC involvement...

If it weren't for Prada, and the immense passion for sailing of PB, the possibility of any Italian challenge would be close to zero. Long life to Patrizio!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Totally agree. I REALLY thought both Samsung and Hyundai are perfectly suited to jump into the game, and the game would be pocket lint to those giants. Really was a dissappointment they did not get in. BUT, maybe the finals in AC34 will be enough to convince them that the AC game is an up-and-comer that would be good for them.

 

It doesn't sound like you understand how many tens of thousands of people are already targeting both Samsung and Hyundai's money. They may be a perfect fit for an AC team, but are there any money spenders at these two firms who have the least bit of interest in paying up for an AC team? What's in it for them? Risk? Uncertainty? Negative public reaction? Potential awesomeness, if like this AC half the pundits are wrong?

 

In Oracle's case, I wonder if they found Red Bull or Red Bull found them?

 

Koukel

 

In the case of Hyundai, you have a potential sponsor with shipping as a major part of their company. Not too many sports better suited to sponsorship for a shipping company than the AC. As for Samsung, not many sports provide the visuals for advertising campaigns for their TVs, Tablets and phones than AC72s blasting around SFO. As I said, pocket lint $$$ for either company. Certainly, AC would only be a part of the sponsorship spending for either company.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All entries depend upon bringing it in under $50 million.

 

There will be no commitments until we see the sticker price.

 

However, I think some syndicates will be quick out of the gate.

 

Because AC34 reinforced what we already know.

 

Time is the enemy of every AC campaign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Totally agree. I REALLY thought both Samsung and Hyundai are perfectly suited to jump into the game, and the game would be pocket lint to those giants. Really was a dissappointment they did not get in. BUT, maybe the finals in AC34 will be enough to convince them that the AC game is an up-and-comer that would be good for them.

 

It doesn't sound like you understand how many tens of thousands of people are already targeting both Samsung and Hyundai's money. They may be a perfect fit for an AC team, but are there any money spenders at these two firms who have the least bit of interest in paying up for an AC team? What's in it for them? Risk? Uncertainty? Negative public reaction? Potential awesomeness, if like this AC half the pundits are wrong?

 

In Oracle's case, I wonder if they found Red Bull or Red Bull found them?

 

Koukel

 

In the case of Hyundai, you have a potential sponsor with shipping as a major part of their company. Not too many sports better suited to sponsorship for a shipping company than the AC. As for Samsung, not many sports provide the visuals for advertising campaigns for their TVs, Tablets and phones than AC72s blasting around SFO. As I said, pocket lint $$$ for either company. Certainly, AC would only be a part of the sponsorship spending for either company.

 

 

Samsung would be smart to sponsor the event. Right in Apple's backyard, literally. Apple never does event sponsorship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7) Team China?

 

Oh no ... not this discussion again! State funding blah, blah ....

 

I will be in the Great Hall of the People (at Tiananmen) in late October and will let you know.

 

Right now, Xi Jinping is more interested in censoring the Internet than in building a fast foiler!

 

China has many problems. Walking along Chestnut St. is not one of them!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In any case, although I'm sure China will continue to outgrow the west, there are good reasons to believe the days of double-digit growth are over.

 

They will not risk the loss of face involved with entering a POS team.

 

For them it is not just a matter of money.

 

In China, there are more urgent priorities than AC racing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^

 

There are more urgent priorities everywhere. Not sure that signifies much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^

 

The Virgin rumour has been circulating for years. Nothing has come of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At Club 72, the buzz was these guys wanted to get in the AC game.

1. Red Bull

2. JPMorgan/Chase

3. Virgin Group

4. Google

 

 

Wishful thinking on several, if not all but Red Bull.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Virgin ! I'm a big fan of Richard Branson but his ethos is very simple, everything he does has to pay its way, ie be self funding. Necka Island, the boat, the chalet in Switzerland etc etc. He was in F1 for a while because he got a great deal, team Brando g rights for very little cash. He doesn't do stuff that doesn't pay its way and the AC certainly doesn't pay it's way.

 

Of course Sir Ben and Percey et all would love to do a British Team but the isnt $100m nor is there going to be. Oracle just aren't interested insetting the bar at a level where they might lose. They've been frightened to death by this cup, it won't happen again.

 

As for Asia I've lived out there for a while and worked closely with the region for 20 years, of course everyone is chasing their money but sailing is very far down the pecking order and doesn't have the cachet we attach to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Red Bull are in the AC as a sponsor with the youth cup and drinks in JS's hand without funding a whole team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

China has no problems "losing face with a POS team", if it views it as a stepping stone.

 

In the 70's, China fielded some abysmal teams in figure skating, weightlifting and fencing.

 

But they weren't there to win, they were there to gain experience. They went home and synthesized what they learned and came back again.

 

And the next team would be slightly better than the last. And so on and so on. Until finally they are dominate competitors in those sports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

And the next team would be slightly better than the last. And so on and so on. Until finally they are dominate competitors in those sports.

 

The most recent "Chinese" teams were just a vanity project for a rich man and his celebrity wife.

 

In both cases they were an embarassment.

 

If the Party was to put some of their gold medal women in charge things might be better

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

China has no problems "losing face with a POS team", if it views it as a stepping stone.

 

In the 70's, China fielded some abysmal teams in figure skating, weightlifting and fencing.

 

But they weren't there to win, they were there to gain experience. They went home and synthesized what they learned STEROIDS and came back again.

 

And the next team would be slightly better than the last. And so on and so on. Until finally they are dominant competitors in those sports.

Fixed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Possibly South Africa.

Oman and/or Qatar (depending on nationality rule)

Who's to say there will only be one Aussie challenger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So are we any futher along, especially with rumours of key personnel being signed up.

 

To be realistic what are the serious prospects.

 

1) Defender Trials

 

It would be great to see again a genuine defender series. Not only does it sharpen up the defender, it means that the country holding he Cup has more public interest in media/people, and of course all the wonderful intrigues of inside dealing in the selection of the defender, think of all the old NYC red trouser shenanigans in Newport, the defender series in San Diego and of course the Aussie defender trials in Fremantle with our mate Iain Murray and kevin Parry against Syd Fischer and Bondy of course.

 

So who will take on LE, surely somebody as there is no shortage of money around SF. How about Tom Perkins setting up a syndicate with some of the Silicon valley money. Or of course the NYC with some old money and Steve Benjamin running the show.

 

2) Challengers

 

Hamilton Island. I guess so

 

TNZ, probably in some shape or form with Emirates

 

Prada again (not definite but surely likely

 

Artemis, does TL really have his heart in it after such a total meltdown and waste of money last time. If not who else can Laurent Esquier persuade to blow their wad?

 

Rest of World hard to see:

 

BAR: can't see anybody in Britain willing to go the $50m even with the prospect of backing the Golden One. JP Morgan is a bit of trouble at the moment.

 

Oman: just got to be a real prospect , and they love sailing the multis from Extreme 40's to MOD 70's

 

China, Korea etc... No idea nu surelly a possibility

 

France; no money

 

 

So who has some real intelligence out there on what is moving, surely the vast network on SA'ers have some inside info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I predict 8 to 12 teams racing foiling AC45s in the ACWS by the end of '14. 4 to 8 of them will step up to build AC35 Class boats, 3 or 4 of them committing early in '14 and the remainder trickling in later as they are able to.

 

Today marks one month to the day since the Defense of the Cup. I think a lot of signings might have happened already but yes, it is pretty quiet so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You do realize that if your predictions don't materialize precisely as stated you will get an avalanche of unwarranted criticism for 3 or 4 years from those that won't predict shit and are still bitching about Herbie, the LR instigated wind limits, and of course the 40 minute time limit that everyone agreed to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You do realize that if your predictions don't materialize precisely as stated you will get an avalanche of unwarranted criticism for 3 or 4 years from those that won't predict shit and are still bitching about Herbie, the LR instigated wind limits, and of course the 40 minute time limit that everyone agreed to.

That's fine by me. I'm sure Clean already knows everything about everyone anyway; especially how big a disaster AC35 surely will be too ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

You do realize that if your predictions don't materialize precisely as stated you will get an avalanche of unwarranted criticism for 3 or 4 years from those that won't predict shit and are still bitching about Herbie, the LR instigated wind limits, and of course the 40 minute time limit that everyone agreed to.

That's fine by me. I'm sure Clean already knows everything about everyone anyway; especially how big a disaster AC35 surely will be too ;)

 

Well we all know clean predicted the success of AC34 which is why he provided such good coverage. It's not like he ran in after the fact and got an interview with JS due to the success of the event.

 

As they say, success has many fathers and failure is but an orphan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So who has some real intelligence out there on what is moving, surely the vast network on SA'ers have some inside info

 

There was the slightly whimsical HIYC press conference immediately after they became Challenger and BA has been doing the PR bit. Apart from that.

 

tumbleweed.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd have little problem with a fewer number of quality challengers.

 

TNZ, Artemis and Luna Rossa (with proper programs this time), plus the Aussies would ok with me. One or two additional teams from Europe would be a bonus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I predict 8 to 12 teams racing foiling AC45s in the ACWS by the end of '14. 4 to 8 of them will step up to build AC35 Class boats, 3 or 4 of them committing early in '14 and the remainder trickling in later as they are able to.

 

Today marks one month to the day since the Defense of the Cup. I think a lot of signings might have happened already but yes, it is pretty quiet so far.

 

So you think LE will continue to bankroll the AC45's WS?

 

Also what is your feeling on the chance of multiple defenders?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you think LE will continue to bankroll the AC45's WS?

 

Also what is your feeling on the chance of multiple defenders?

Am going mostly by what RC described to Sportspromedia, he had presumably already discussed the generalities with LE. In case you missed that one: http://www.sportspromedia.com/quick_fire_questions/russell_coutts_on_cutting_costs_losing_the_lawyers_and_the_future_of_the_am/

 

Defender trials? I hope so, but doubt it and also think OTUSA will run a better, more effective two-boat campaign next time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So you think LE will continue to bankroll the AC45's WS?

 

Also what is your feeling on the chance of multiple defenders?

Am going mostly by what RC described to Sportspromedia, he had presumably already discussed the generalities with LE. In case you missed that one: http://www.sportspromedia.com/quick_fire_questions/russell_coutts_on_cutting_costs_losing_the_lawyers_and_the_future_of_the_am/

 

Defender trials? I hope so, but doubt it and also think OTUSA will run a better, more effective two-boat campaign next time.

 

Yes, I am sure OTUSA can run a much better camaign next time; they started on the wrong side of the design envelope (maybe signing up M&M this time) and then the capsize made it even worse (apart from forceing them to reassess their whole design philosphy which brought them back to foiling more quickly.

 

Please keep you ear to the ground for other potential defenders, surely we can muster up someone with Ken Read managing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rothschild ? Gitana Team

 

 

 

So you think LE will continue to bankroll the AC45's WS?

 

Also what is your feeling on the chance of multiple defenders?

Am going mostly by what RC described to Sportspromedia, he had presumably already discussed the generalities with LE. In case you missed that one: http://www.sportspromedia.com/quick_fire_questions/russell_coutts_on_cutting_costs_losing_the_lawyers_and_the_future_of_the_am/

 

Defender trials? I hope so, but doubt it and also think OTUSA will run a better, more effective two-boat campaign next time.

 

Yes, I am sure OTUSA can run a much better camaign next time; they started on the wrong side of the design envelope (maybe signing up M&M this time) and then the capsize made it even worse (apart from forceing them to reassess their whole design philosphy which brought them back to foiling more quickly.

 

Please keep you ear to the ground for other potential defenders, surely we can muster up someone with Ken Read managing.

That option was very much at the top of the table had ETNZ won, but with Larry at the helm I don't see a KR/US program going for the defender series. Same cost as the AC but much smaller odds and exposure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^ GD said somewhere before the OTUSA win that he'd already been approached about AC35 by 'my new best friend' (said with a touch of sarcastic humor) Ernesto Bertarelli, and also by an interested American syndicate. Whoever that party is, may also be attracted by a DSS alternative if that looks like a good format. Elsewhere, Netscape founder Jim Clark denied interest in running a campaign so we can start there in the process-of-elimination game that will surely evolve here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a NYYC based challenge, and my info is that it was only going to be on if Larry lost. No one wants to play 'bet the checkbook' against him given the likely cost of these beasts. You need corporate money for that, and a defender series would seemingly carry very little exposure at a very high cost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not much talk of Alinghi getting back into the game.

I would have thought enough time has passed where his sense of embarrassment would have given way to his ego's need for revenge.

It should be obvious to EB by now that he can't wait on someone else (ETNZ) to take the cup away from the Larry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a NYYC based challenge, and my info is that it was only going to be on if Larry lost. No one wants to play 'bet the checkbook' against him given the likely cost of these beasts. You need corporate money for that, and a defender series would seemingly carry very little exposure at a very high cost.

There's a bigger problem than exposure for the cost. Any defender syndicate still sails for the GGYC,. Even if you win the Defender Trials and successfully defend the Cup, you still don't get to take the Cup back to your own club. It's hard to see a NY syndicate being interested in that prospect.

 

The only way to claim the Cup for a different US club is for GGYC to lose it, and then win it back. Think Dennis Conner sailing for NYYC and then bringing the Cup to San Diego.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Hamilton Island Y.C Team


2) Artemis


3) Luna Rossa


4) ETNZ


5) Alinghi



Two more team out of the following candidates:


1) GBR Team


2) French Team


3) US Team


4) China


5) Korea


6) Russia




Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a Gtran of

http://mobile.corriere.it/m/cds/ultimora/dettaglio/Sport/America-Cup-Luna-Rossa-vuole-Cagliari/09-11-2013/1-A_008934211?checkEnrichmentDate=1384009872367

 

CAGLIARI - The international sailing to the port of Cagliari. The Luna Rossa Challenge 2013 srl has asked the coastal concession area of 12,100 square meters pier Savoy. Objective: Install removable structures to be used as a base for training in preparation for the 35 / America's Cup The staff would transfer to Cagliari for two years, with an option for the third.

 

similar, also in Italian: http://sport.repubblica.it/news/sport/vela-america-s-cup-luna-rossa-si-allenera-a-cagliari/4424873

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a Gtran of

http://mobile.corriere.it/m/cds/ultimora/dettaglio/Sport/America-Cup-Luna-Rossa-vuole-Cagliari/09-11-2013/1-A_008934211?checkEnrichmentDate=1384009872367

 

CAGLIARI - The international sailing to the port of Cagliari. The Luna Rossa Challenge 2013 srl has asked the coastal concession area of 12,100 square meters pier Savoy. Objective: Install removable structures to be used as a base for training in preparation for the 35 / America's Cup The staff would transfer to Cagliari for two years, with an option for the third.

 

similar, also in Italian: http://sport.repubblica.it/news/sport/vela-america-s-cup-luna-rossa-si-allenera-a-cagliari/4424873

 

Good find. Confirmation they're in it for the ext round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

a Gtran of

http://mobile.corriere.it/m/cds/ultimora/dettaglio/Sport/America-Cup-Luna-Rossa-vuole-Cagliari/09-11-2013/1-A_008934211?checkEnrichmentDate=1384009872367

 

CAGLIARI - The international sailing to the port of Cagliari. The Luna Rossa Challenge 2013 srl has asked the coastal concession area of 12,100 square meters pier Savoy. Objective: Install removable structures to be used as a base for training in preparation for the 35 / America's Cup The staff would transfer to Cagliari for two years, with an option for the third.

 

similar, also in Italian: http://sport.repubblica.it/news/sport/vela-america-s-cup-luna-rossa-si-allenera-a-cagliari/4424873

Good find. Confirmation they're in it for the ext round.

True. It's also a place we will hopefully get to take more interest in and learning about from, over the next year or two. It's been a popular location for a variety of top level regattas, RC44's included, but never been that high on my radar for whatever reason.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagliari

 

I thought LR was originally planning on basing their operation in Sicily, west of Palermo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought LR was originally planning on basing their operation in Sicily, west of Palermo.

That was Trapani. Mof, I wonder if Circolo della Vela Sicilia will still be involved.

 

313898335676bc2cf7655144c7d2b77d_zps0780

 

LR's base will be a portion of Molo Sabaudo.

 

Have been to Cagliari many times, but not sail related - Rennie's been there, though.

 

 

On other matters, fwiw (not much), according to VentoeVele soft sails are rumored to be in favor. If that were the case, I simply cannot see how the French could resist joining in

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I thought LR was originally planning on basing their operation in Sicily, west of Palermo.

That was Trapani. Mof, I wonder if Circolo della Vela Sicilia will still be involved.

 

313898335676bc2cf7655144c7d2b77d_zps0780

 

LR's base will be a portion of Molo Sabaudo.

 

Have been to Cagliari many times, but not sail related - Rennie's been there, though.

 

 

On other matters, fwiw (not much), according to VentoeVele soft sails are rumored to be in favor. If that were the case, I simply cannot see how the French could resist joining in

 

Looked at that VentoeVele story. I love the "rumors" comment. Have to wonder in cases like this if the "rumors" simply refer to "pulling this out of my ass". I have a hard time believing they will go away from wings, particularly if they are going smaller.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SF in 72s

 

Oracle

AUS

ETNZ

Artemis

Ainsle

Oman

Energy Team

Maybe a few more

 

I think that with simplifying the control issues in the rules and a few other changes it will be possible to have a legitimate challenge for a number well under $100 million. That's not to say that teams won't be spending that. The design sharing rules allow teams shed quite a bit of the overhead associated with the AC. How ever badly the Italians did against the Kiwis in the LV finals you'd be hard pressed to say that the difference was the second gen boat vs the first gen boat. I think it's a safe bet that if the Kiwis pulled out boat 1 the deltas would have been similar. If more teams come and there is shared facilities and personnel, ie one group of people that launch and retrieve all the boats, it will be possible to be competitive on less than $50 million. Still a shit ton of money. Still a tough road, but with a few smart choices not impossible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interviewed Luna Rossa helmsman Chris Draper this afternoon for the Sail Racing Magazine Podcast and he indicated he and Italian team would be back.

 

Full 23 minute interview here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interviewed Luna Rossa helmsman Chris Draper this afternoon for the Sail Racing Magazine Podcast and he indicated he and Italian team would be back.

 

Full 23 minute interview here.

That is an absolutely Killer interview! Thank you, Justin and Chris.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He sure likes the AC72s.

 

With all the talk of shrinking the boats, I hope they are keeping the option open of just shrinking the wing and keeping the boat largely as-is. I did not go back to re-listen, but did he say the wing was basically excessive, just creating more drag? Going a little narrower and with a smaller wing certainly seems reasonable. Ditch or significantly reduce the minimum wing weight, and definitely ditch the maximum platform weight. I wonder how much narrower they could go and keep the foiling stability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Draper's answer to the question of rumors that LR is setting up a base in Sardinia suggests that Draper is a free agent and has no current involvement or knowledge in LR's transition into AC35.

 

And Draper has 2 brand new nippleless LR AC34 suits in his closet that he is saving for a future Star Wars party. That was pretty funny.

 

Good interview all in all, especially the bit where Draper explains that OR's pod design under the platform made a huge difference up wind.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Draper quotes;

 

The AC is a billionaires plaything and we should celebrate that.

 

A month before the cup our analytics showed that NZ would crush Oracle.

 

I won't be unhappy if we don't have to wear the suits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Draper quotes;

 

The AC is a billionaires plaything and we should celebrate that.

 

 

 

No, he didn't actually say he believed that. He said it was a viewpoint which would be was easy for him hold given the team that employs him. He went on to discuss BA's search for (commercial?) sponsorship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A month before the cup we were looking at the analytics and data and thought ET was going to crush OR..they did an insane job of sorting the tacking and alot of us didn't think they were going to be able to do with their hydraulic board system. Talking with Slingsby - "the massive gains are out there".

 

"The ACWS part was awesome" - a note to all those ET fans who did nothing but criticize it for three years. Take the word from someone that participated, vs grumpy and his political sheep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take the word from someone that participated, vs grumpy and his political sheep.

You mean GD and the kiwis did not participate ? you put your foot in the mouth once again :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Take the word from someone that participated, vs grumpy and his political sheep.

You mean GD and the kiwis did not participate ? you put your foot in the mouth once again :)

 

Try again fuckstick - the word vs grumpy's word and all his sheep.

 

You're all class

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With all the talk of shrinking the boats, I hope they are keeping the option open of just shrinking the wing and keeping the boat largely as-is. I did not go back to re-listen, but did he say the wing was basically excessive, just creating more drag? Going a little narrower and with a smaller wing certainly seems reasonable. Ditch or significantly reduce the minimum wing weight, and definitely ditch the maximum platform weight. I wonder how much narrower they could go and keep the foiling stability.

Thinking out loud ... leaving OR's promises, promises aside for a moment, what about the Oatleys? They know what happened to their CoR predecessors, and I would imagine they don't want to end up like either: looking financially or technically hapless in the eyes of the entire world. Therefore, I can see them signing off on a Rule that's comparatively easy on the pocket and on the drafting table CATIA monitor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fwiw, in RC44 news

--

The initiative will see young Russian sailors compete in everything from the Optimist class to top level international sailing events including the RC44 Championship Tour, along with receiving professional coaching. The ultimate aspiration for Gazprom Youth Sailing Challenge sailors is to compete in events such as the Volvo Ocean Race, Rolex Fastnet Race, Extreme 40 Series and the Americas Cup.

 

http://www.rc44.com/news/view/gazprom_youth_sailing_challenge_to_join_rc44_championship_tour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Percy at VS

 

Iain Percy talks to VSail.info about Artemis Racing, the RC44′s and, of course, the America’s Cup


The three-time British Olympic medalist is in Puerto Calero, calling tactics for Torbjörn Törnqvist oboard Artemis Racing at the RC44 World Championship. We caught up with him and talked about his new role as Team Manager and the present and future of the team and the America’s Cup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Percy at VS

 

Iain Percy talks to VSail.info about Artemis Racing, the RC44′s and, of course, the America’s Cup

 

The three-time British Olympic medalist is in Puerto Calero, calling tactics for Torbjörn Törnqvist oboard Artemis Racing at the RC44 World Championship. We caught up with him and talked about his new role as Team Manager and the present and future of the team and the America’s Cup.

 

Excellent find. Great interview. Kudos to Pierre Iain doesn't give anything away but he offers some great insights. Perhaps worth a threat of its own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Agree, good Q's, very good A's, nicely written and transcribed, it's a really good piece.

 

And yes the insights that IP provides into what Artemis aspires to is a big takeaway; as is his answer about lessons learned - a flatter more democratic leadership structure and a co-existence all on site - presumably at the venue?

 

edit, saw at RC44.com that AR did well. TT at the helm w IP tactician won all 6 match races.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Agree, good Q's, very good A's, nicely written and transcribed, it's a really good piece.

 

And yes the insights that IP provides into what Artemis aspires to is a big takeaway; as is his answer about lessons learned - a flatter more democratic leadership structure and a co-existence all on site - presumably at the venue?

 

edit, saw at RC44.com that AR did well. TT at the helm w IP tactician won all 6 match races.

Once again, nice find SR! And kudos to TT and IP and the team. Great to see them enjoy some success. Amazing potential in that team. Happy to see it come out now. They will be a force to be reckoned with in the AC....depending on their choice of designer....

One good thing. The design parameters will likely be narrowed for this Cup. If they can get the costs down somewhat and the global economy improves somewhat, we may see an an even MORE amazing AC Cup!

As soon as the dates are announced, I'm booking. Had an awesome experience in September, albeit for the first three days of the finals.... :angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Insightful comments - sounds like they have some drive and determination despite the adversity they faced. Sound familiar ? .

 

And the posters that repeatedly called for them to withdraw, like te koodie the taniwha whisperer and Jasper should take note of his comments and shove their heads back under rocks where they belong. Quitters, if not poiticians, they are - the worst of the worst.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More interviews like this one, from key people, will be published in the next few weeks and months. Stay tuned.

 

The only question I forgot to ask was about nationality rules, but I guess Percy and Artemis Racing wouldn't be thrilled with them...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Best you didn't Mr. Pierre. Nationality is a bit taboo around these parts. Can't compromise the gravy train.

 

WetHog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More interviews like this one, from key people, will be published in the next few weeks and months. Stay tuned.

 

The only question I forgot to ask was about nationality rules, but I guess Percy and Artemis Racing wouldn't be thrilled with them...

Thanks for the great interview.

 

Interesting he postulated on one-design elements including beams and parts of the wing (assume he likely means the spar), two things I have though would make sense to do one-design as they are much less performance related and could allow for significant cost cutting in the design department, both in eliminating the need to design those elements, and also restricting the options somewhat for the design of what surrounds them.

 

I would also love to hear about the current status of their boats and bases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Yes, agreed.

 

Not much 'looking ahead' in the article but the writer does an otherwise decent job of describing what IM had to deal with. The independence discussion is especially important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And those that embarked on an immediate character assassination of IM given ruddergate should be permanently banned under a SA rule 69 status.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can somebody explain why larger rudders are safer ? why IM played that game ?

Let's remember, it was done at a time OR could not match TNZ and they knew it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can somebody explain why larger rudders are safer ? why IM played that game ?

Let's remember, it was done at a time OR could not match TNZ and they knew it.

 

Yes, lets remember - here you've told us all along you're the expert on everything.

 

Why don't you explain it to us ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Can somebody explain why larger rudders are safer ? why IM played that game ?

Let's remember, it was done at a time OR could not match TNZ and they knew it.

 

And here you've told us all along you're the expert.

 

Why don't you explain it to us ?

You are not able to defend your point ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Can somebody explain why larger rudders are safer ? why IM played that game ?

Let's remember, it was done at a time OR could not match TNZ and they knew it.

 

And here you've told us all along you're the expert.

 

Why don't you explain it to us ?

You are not able to defend your point ?

 

In case your to stupid to recognize it, it's your point, not mine.

 

I'm awaiting the response from a self proclaimed expert :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Can somebody explain why larger rudders are safer ? why IM played that game ?

Let's remember, it was done at a time OR could not match TNZ and they knew it.

 

And here you've told us all along you're the expert.

 

Why don't you explain it to us ?

You are not able to defend your point ?

 

In case your to stupid to recognize it, it's your point, not mine.

 

I'm awaiting the response from a self proclaimed expert :)

The expert of the rudder gate is SR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Can somebody explain why larger rudders are safer ? why IM played that game ?

Let's remember, it was done at a time OR could not match TNZ and they knew it.

 

And here you've told us all along you're the expert.

 

Why don't you explain it to us ?

You are not able to defend your point ?

 

In case your to stupid to recognize it, it's your point, not mine.

 

I'm awaiting the response from a self proclaimed expert :)

The expert of the rudder gate is SR.

 

Quit trolling looser.

 

IM provided a technical explanation three months ago - go debate it with him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fwiw..

--

CUP CHALLENGER

Celebrity accountant Anthony Bell has been talking up his intention to launch an Americas Cup challenge in recent weeks, despite the Oatley family having already signed on as the official challenger, meaning there could be two Australian teams after a three-decade absence. Meanwhile Bells wife, television presenter Kelly Landry-Bell, is hosting a ladies lunch next week for her fellow SWAGS in the lead-up to Bells Loyal setting sail in this years Sydney to Hobart, with its celebrity crew. Lynette Bolton, Terry Biviano, Kelly Landry-Bell, Cass Stefanovic and Sacha Calligeros will lead the charge before they converge on the docks in Hobart to welcome their boys home.

http://m.smh.com.au/lifestyle/private-sydney/willow-in-limbo-20131122-2y1f9.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can somebody explain why larger rudders are safer ? why IM played that game ?

Let's remember, it was done at a time OR could not match TNZ and they knew it.

Corollary question:

 

Can you name a single sailboat in the history of sail for which a smaller rudder is/was demonstrably safer? Thought not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Can somebody explain why larger rudders are safer ? why IM played that game ?

Let's remember, it was done at a time OR could not match TNZ and they knew it.

Corollary question:

 

Can you name a single sailboat in the history of sail for which a smaller rudder is/was demonstrably safer? Thought not.

I agree about the size of the rudder but remember, it was about the size of the elevator.

Let us remember that the elevator is lifting the stern, and the reason given was to prevent pitchpoling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites