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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Xlot

LR in AC35

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1) Botín is a mono rating guy - be it IRC or V5, tuck the transom in a bit here, a hint of a chine there. At ETNZ / AC34, he was shunted to the VOR project, and we know the bitter aftertaste that left

 

2) For the AC62, we've even left "classic" multi design - epitomized by a VPP, balance of steady state propulsive and resistance forces - and gone (just like F1) to "vehicle dynamics", where what matters is the stability of foiling under transient conditions. As that certain person said, either you've mastered the basics in AC34 or you needn't bother ..

 

I have this to say about the mono guy vs multi guy discussion. Designing in the Americas Cup environment is very different in terms of what you can imagine, test, and build. There are so many examples of this, but consider the comments of Paul Bieker "most loaded structures I have ever designed" referring to foils in the 34th. Designers, even the chief, are a part the team framework and must either do their part (or make choices / set priorities of others work in the case of department heads/chief) rather than be solely responsible for coming up with the next big thing. AC teams are hierarchies.

 

I don't know Botin at all, but as a designer with a CONSISTENT record and big team experience, he is perfectly well suited to make design decisions. It is for this reason that I reject direct comparisons to JuanK. Same reason I reject blaming Botin for Clifford, as if he designed it by himself.

 

It is important to have enough intrinsic understanding of the "beast" in the team, just as it matters to listen to the sailing team. But AFAIK none of the design teams have been led, nor will be led, by the noted major players in the multihull field. In the case of e.g. the 33rd, my own opinion is that the previously mono AC designers (Fresh Burns etc.) chewed up and digested all of what VPLP had to offer in a very short amount of time, and then gave them something else to do. Didn't Pete Melvin coach the sailors from BMWOR? Long story short: naval architecture in multis is naval architecture first, multihulled second.

 

As for classic multi hull design vs foiling multihull and VPP, if you think that a VPP cannot handle transients at this level, well that is not the case. Flight simulation is also a force balance, as is a VPP. In the case of the AC, the solutions will be very customized.

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^

 

I don't think our positions are that distant, in principle: the AC certainly is a different design environment, and Max Sirena was telling me how he felt that in the final, hectic months of AC33 VPLP were almost a drag, the deletion of central daggerboard and rudder being practically forced upon them.

 

But it's also important to have enough intrinsic understanding of the "beast" (see, I keep borrowing your own words): all previously mono AC designers - all, that is, who proved capable/flexible enough not to be weeded out like JuanK - have had at least one Cup cycle (OR's had two) to chew up and digest multi / foiling specifics under the harsh mistress that was the AC72. Even giving Botín the benefit of the doubt in terms of potential, you cannot deny he's a latecomer and will have to play catch-up: something not easy to do when one is No. 1 in the hierarchy, with a lot of primadonnas nominally underneath.

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^ To say Botin is unproven in this role is fact. I won't dispute it. You began by expressing a chilling feeling which you connected to JuanK. OK, fair enough. I don't have that feeling, and perhaps because I don't associate him with JuanK. I don't know what Botin did in ETNZ for the 34th AC, but at least at the beginning he was listed in that team. Maybe, just maybe he is not the newbie you think he is. Time will tell. LR management won't be compelled to keep him in that role if he proves a detriment.

 

Aside, I do know Martin Fischer and while he is not a great big buddy buddy kind of guy, I think some of the jabs leveled here miss the mark. In my presence he has been self promoting, but also self deprecating and realistic in describing his good and bad projects, in equal measures. I know he is bright and works hard - so I think he can fit fine in the team.

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Don't know how much commercial sense this really makes, but Prada is going through the motions of extracting ROI from its AC venture: plenty of TV ads and even more numerous billboards for the LR perfume line - was driving by so I'm not entirely sure, but I believe I read "Challenger, America's Cup". At least now the boat is the AC72 (silver uniforms not too conspicuous), we no longer see poor Max playing Captains Courageous in a storm with the AC45

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was driving by so I'm not entirely sure, but I believe I read "Challenger, 34th America's Cup".

Had a closer look, and it's correct - not that most people would know the difference

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Moaning again Waldo?

 

Good on them - looks like a sweet machine - (note leeward foil tip). More (_ than L

Also perfect training conditions, another good call.

 

big_LunaRossa_Cagliari_14_1256.jpg

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Too bad if RC doesn't get his act together and change the AC45 rule, for ACWS. Maybe the surrogates are a better way to go, meantime?

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Looks pretty. I would love to hear what these guys have to say about the relative performance of the bigger, winged boat compared to the GC32. Could anyone tell if Draper was driving?

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Looks pretty. I would love to hear what these guys have to say about the relative performance of the bigger, winged boat compared to the GC32. Could anyone tell if Draper was driving?

Seems Draper was there:

--

 

@DraperChris: Impressive day for the team yesterday. Straight out the tent everything working and boat ripping. Amazing signs of the things to come #AC35

 

https://twitter.com/draperchris/status/484395051079180288

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LR in match racing.... http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/sailing/stena-match-cup-ian-williams-and-gac-pindar-pulled-back-from-lead-after-penalty-9586320.html

 

It was honours even in both semi-finals of the Stena Match Cup in Marstrand as four-time world match racing champion Ian Williams and his GAC Pindar crew at first taking the lead against Italy’s Francesco Bruni, carrying Luna Rossa America’s Cup colours, but going into the clubhouse, which is a castle, 1-1.

 

etc......

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The parallelism perhaps?

 

Lack thereof, I'd say: the paint scheme makes it very easy to notice platform twist (Clean was right, for once)

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Yes, think you're right Max and Terry. Thanks for taking a close gander, not many people on the planet could come up with that. :)

 

SF's P32, just about 12 months back, almost an anniversary.

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At

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/103_Luna-Rossa-is-flying-full-speed-ahead.html

 

"Our aim is to win the Americas Cup," Sirena says with conviction. "To do that, we will have to give our very best from the first day to the last day of the campaign. The main racing this time does not start until 2017, but if we are going to win in three years, we have to start with what we are doing right now."

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The same LR video was posted some time back. It's not fresh but is still cool, and the article and quotes are both.

 

As new CoR, I bet they press for Foiling 45's only from now on.

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neat enough tweet

--

 

@DraperChris: You know you've been spending a lot of time foiling when you get in your car and it feels weird that it's touching the ground #AC35

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OK, There's this long (over 10') interview with Max Sirena on

 

http://ventoevele.gazzetta.it/

 

Too much for me to summarize, but the gist is the recent U-turn is confirmed: emphasis on cooperation with other challengers and defender, let's be positive, non-ISAF jury may be good because of instant rulings, the charm/peculiaity of the AC is the defender writes the Prot and challengers have to overcome this, he doesn't think the Prot will see/need substantial changes, who the next CoR is will be known in the next few weeks based on priority - should it be LR, they will fulfill the duty responsibly, he believes LR is gaining a significant advantage by having resumed activities very early.

 

Again: not a single word of criticism vs. OR, no mention of venue(s), oh and he wishes the Italian Press went along instead of having a polemic attitude .. (hint, hint to those looking for access ..)

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Nothing like a blast of Shaun Ryder WFL on a not-so-happy Monday.

 

I've been trained

I can sit and stand

Beg and roll over

 

You used to speak the truth

But now you're clever

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OK, There's this long (over 10') interview with Max Sirena on

 

http://ventoevele.gazzetta.it/

 

Too much for me to summarize, but the gist is the recent U-turn is confirmed: emphasis on cooperation with other challengers and defender, let's be positive, non-ISAF jury may be good because of instant rulings, the charm/peculiaity of the AC is the defender writes the Prot and challengers have to overcome this, he doesn't think the Prot will see/need substantial changes, who the next CoR is will be known in the next few weeks based on priority - should it be LR, they will fulfill the duty responsibly, he believes LR is gaining a significant advantage by having resumed activities very early.

 

Again: not a single word of criticism vs. OR, no mention of venue(s), oh and he wishes the Italian Press went along instead of having a polemic attitude .. (hint, hint to those looking for access ..)

 

 

The funniest part about this will be if LR does become CoR and they support the non-ISAF jury given the relationship between Bertelli/Prada and Croce. What's the President of ISAF going to do then? Oh wait, he's also the President of the Italian MNA who has Prada as a primary sponsor. Croce would then either have to have the ISAF Executive to come down hard on all the AC clubs, teams and sailor, or if not, he'll just prove that he's owned by Bertelli.

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OK, There's this long (over 10') interview with Max Sirena on

 

http://ventoevele.gazzetta.it/

 

Too much for me to summarize, but the gist is the recent U-turn is confirmed: emphasis on cooperation with other challengers and defender, let's be positive, non-ISAF jury may be good because of instant rulings, the charm/peculiaity of the AC is the defender writes the Prot and challengers have to overcome this, he doesn't think the Prot will see/need substantial changes, who the next CoR is will be known in the next few weeks based on priority - should it be LR, they will fulfill the duty responsibly, he believes LR is gaining a significant advantage by having resumed activities very early.

 

Again: not a single word of criticism vs. OR, no mention of venue(s), oh and he wishes the Italian Press went along instead of having a polemic attitude .. (hint, hint to those looking for access ..)

 

There are some quotes in this Italian page: http://www.gazzetta.it/vela/04-08-2014/vela-salvare-coppa-america-poi-vincerla-serena-luna-rossa-9038713984.shtml

 

From this rough g-tran: https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&nv=1&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.gazzetta.it/vela/04-08-2014/vela-salvare-coppa-america-poi-vincerla-serena-luna-rossa-9038713984.shtml

 

The event itself is to what extent?

"We are in a fairly advanced state. We started working the day after the end of last year and now we're really happy with how things are going.Understanding the Cup as an event, however, we should not hide that is not doing well, is in a stalemate and we're working to try to give it some 'credibility, because I think it remains one of the most spectacular events, especially after the last final of San Francisco in September 2013. Personally, I'm trying to push to create a round table where you put stakes to restore credibility to the Cup, but also to sailing in general. There is no doubt that the America's Cup is something that generates a trend: all the boats in the world today want to fly. He then each team try to help the defender Oracle to revive the event. And from the meetings (the last I've seen in the last few rounds), the tone is purposeful. "

 

cntd

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^

 

Good find. To me, the striking part is this one:

 

In 2013 Luna Rossa created much controversy to the Americans, in this Cup it has changed its attitude.

"There are different phases. I do not think now is the time to criticize only, you must also be constructive, you must find a starting point to try to build, otherwise negativity prevails and that leads nowhere. As I do not think the solution is to retire: who does so has already lost"

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Be negative, be constructive, retire......and how does he feel about being denied a chance to participate in discussions and express an informed opinion at all?

 

No comment?

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Be negative, be constructive, retire......and how does he feel about being denied a chance to participate in discussions and express an informed opinion at all?

 

No comment?

But being negative, in this 'new age of co-operation' has no place, surely? :ph34r:

 

Not only are the Euros expecting to suck it - they are acquiring a taste for it as well. Good luck with that.

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Be negative, be constructive, retire......and how does he feel about being denied a chance to participate in discussions and express an informed opinion at all?

 

No comment?

But being negative, in this 'new age of co-operation' has no place, surely? :ph34r:

 

Not only are the Euros expecting to suck it - they are acquiring a taste for it as well. Good luck with that.

 

Bah humbug. We haven't seen much straight talk from Dalton on the protocol either. He's in exactly the same position right now. Can't scare off the sponsors.

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Luna Rossa Challenge

Luna Rossa Open Day: aprono domani le iscrizioni sul sito http://www.lunarossachallenge.com.

Il 28 agosto i primi 1000 iscritti potranno visitare la base di Luna Rossa a Cagliari.


Luna Rossa Open Day: the registration form will be online tomorrow on http://www.lunarossachallenge.com. On August 28th the first 1.000 people who sign up can visit Luna Rossa base in Cagliari.




post-33465-0-80614300-1407355539_thumb.jpg

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At less than one hour from the on line publication of the registration form 1.000 people registered and reached the total number of entries allowed for logistic and security reasons.

Luna Rossa wishes to thank everyone for the enthusiasm and affection of its fans!

No translation available







Seems very popular - maybe they should make all teams nationality based.



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Disappointed by the thread title, I was expecting Lesbian Robot to be on here.

Ditto. Twas the only reason I wandered into what is the back isle separated by a bead curtain section of SA. Just as frightening. Bunch of dudes masterbating about the AC.

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Luna Rossa Challenge

Luna Rossa Open Day: aprono domani le iscrizioni sul sito http://www.lunarossachallenge.com.

Il 28 agosto i primi 1000 iscritti potranno visitare la base di Luna Rossa a Cagliari.

 

Luna Rossa Open Day: the registration form will be online tomorrow on http://www.lunarossachallenge.com. On August 28th the first 1.000 people who sign up can visit Luna Rossa base in Cagliari.

 

 

http://www.lunarossachallenge.com/

from this g-tran: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&nv=1&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.ansa.it/mare/notizie/rubriche/nauticaesport/2014/08/07/vela-open-day-luna-rossa-e-boom-gia-esauriti-i-mille-posti_fde8f10c-7c73-44a3-bce1-0fee780c05f5.html&usg=ALkJrhhrfjBoojjUkWYqKgX-xUWad1LInQ

--

However, those who do not have it done to register do not despair: there is in fact another chance. The doors of the headquarters in the port of Cagliari, where the team is preparing the next edition of the America's Cup, will reopen on October 15. "Luna Rossa - says the team's official website - thank you all for your enthusiasm and affection shown."

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Disappointed by the thread title, I was expecting Lesbian Robot to be on here.

Ditto. Twas the only reason I wandered into what is the back isle separated by a bead curtain section of SA. Just as frightening. Bunch of dudes masterbating about the AC.

 

Frightening? Two guys in pursuit of someone who left SA years ago is frightening.

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The support for LR in Napoli was impressive, even before they won that event. Prada must be doing something right.

And now shown by an awesome uptake of backstage passes. Can anyone with a golden ticket out there take a helmetcam through there for us?

 

@Stingray: they sail pretty good, clearly represent, and bring the style and class I wish was more prevalent to these rumbles. Makes me much keener to own a pair of red shoes than a pair of oracles. If there is a high-road to the AC, they're on it.

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Luna Rossa Base Tour, Cagliari

 

figured i'd sneak in a quick walk around the base for everyone who couldn't make it to Cagliari for the team's first Open Day.
Music: Lex - Ratatat

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Dynamic simulation is the latest thing so thanks TC, but

 

That is one of the stupidest charts ever.

was my reaction exactly - and it makes one wonder how much GIGO their software is

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^

No info, but my understanding is heave control remains primarily via AoA on the main foils, rudder stabilizers being set per point of sailing and wind/sea conditions. After all, isn't this what Moths do?

 

Edit: I believe Basiliscus (who else?) posted exhaustively on the subject

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"Also worth remembering that the challenger committee led by the same LR is negotiating with the defender OR USA whether the foiling version of the AC45 will be used for the 2015-2016 ACWS or not"

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^

No info, but my understanding is heave control remains primarily via AoA on the main foils, rudder stabilizers being set per point of sailing and wind/sea conditions. After all, isn't this what Moths do?

 

Edit: I believe Basiliscus (who else?) posted exhaustively on the subject

i believe "The entire rudder assembly can be rotated by the tiller twist grip to manually adjust the angle of of attack. "

http://www.bladerider.com.au/xseries/x8.html

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^ Thanks, that was what I understood, but not being a Mothy I didn't feel qualified to question that ^^

 

So if they stick the 45's on foils 'officially' will they go with AC34 rules or AC35 rules* ?

 

*or are we still in the TBD phase on these as well?!

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Aren't we saying the same thing? Certainly, rudder assemblies will be allowed to rotate - and therefore vary the stabilizers' AoA - and this adjustment (AC35 rules) will be permitted during a race. Except in reality this will be done maybe once per tack, and the primary means of heave control will still be via the main foils.

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Aren't we saying the same thing? Certainly, rudder assemblies will be allowed to rotate - and therefore vary the stabilizers' AoA - and this adjustment (AC35 rules) will be permitted during a race. Except in reality this will be done maybe once per tack, and the primary means of heave control will still be via the main foils.

 

How come?

 

And are the rudder winglets fixed under the AC62 rule as it stands?

 

Edit: they are fixed...

 

10.4 Rudders shall rotate only, and shall have a maximum of two axes of rotation. One axis shall be

within 0.010 m of the hull centerplane, and the other shall be on a rake axis. Rudder rotation

about the rake axis shall be limited to a 3.00 degree range while racing.

10.5 Rudder rotation about the axis within 0.010 m of the hull centerplane shall only be controlled

by steering wheels located in a cockpit in each hull. Steering wheels shall be no less than

0.600 m in outside diameter. While racing rudders shall not be retracted or extended from their

position in appendage measurement condition.

10.6 Rudder and rudder wing components shall be rigidly fixed to each other and their shapes

shall not be adjusted while racing. The rudder wings shall be rigidly fixed to the rudders and

shall not be adjusted relative to the rudders while racing.

 

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the primary means of heave control will still be via the main foils.

How come?

I read it in SA, so it must be true :D Seriously, somebody should ask Basiliscus to re-post it

 

And are the rudder winglets fixed under the AC62 rule as it stands?

 

Edit: they are fixed...

 

10.4 Rudders shall rotate only, and shall have a maximum of two axes of rotation. One axis shall be

within 0.010 m of the hull centerplane, and the other shall be on a rake axis. Rudder rotation

about the rake axis shall be limited to a 3.00 degree range while racing.

 

Yes, fixed to rudders - which may rake 3 degrees while racing (presumably more prior to start, similar to what was done in AC34).

Pointing out once more that the wrong use of terms such as "rudder wings", "gennaker" and Code Zero" in documents as prestigious as successive AC Rules, is beneath contempt.

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Found a few pics that I hoped might show how much modification LE has done so far, in comparison to the original AC45, the OR Foiling AC45 (June 2012), and LR in the past week or two.

 

 

AC45.jpg

 

335b904fd09db211a9f6dc933a4e48d9.jpg

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Xlot "may" be able to correct Gtans :)

 

Max Sirena, skipper of Luna Rossa as a result of the training structure in" full foiling "in the beautiful waters of Sardinia. The two AC45 catamarans of Team Prada are real laboratories on which you are testing various components, developing systems, collecting and analyzing data. The crew is training maneuvers, the conduct of the boat and the techniques and tactics of racing in foiling trim. In short, the whole team is preparing for the best to deal with all situations of race with which you will have to compare when it will be on board AC 62 with the impressive tree of 30 meters and speeds of around 40 knots.

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?client=tmpg&hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicamentecorretto.com%2Findex.php%3Fnews%3D69918&langpair=it|en

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Yep that's a sweet shot - they must be loving it, probably the best performing foilers anywhere at present.

Comparing different boards there by the looks of things.

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Found a few pics that I hoped might show how much modification LE has done so far

We know he's been sitting on a stool and drinking organic beverages. Has he been mixing resin too?

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maybe something about claiming $180m dollars on "entertainment" for a boat race.

 

MILAN—Italian fashion house Prada PRDSY +0.81% SpA said the company's chief executives, Miuccia Prada Bianchi and Patrizio Bertelli, are under investigation by Italian judicial authorities over tax filings.
The company said Ms. Prada and Mr. Bertelli have been informed by the "Italian judicial authority of the existence of an ongoing examination regarding the accuracy of certain past tax filings by them as individuals in respect of foreign-owned companies."
It said the procedure follows the voluntary disclosure made by Ms. Prada Bianchi and Mr. Bertelli that led to an agreement between them and the Italian Tax Authority in December last year.

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