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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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torpenboat

2013 mini transat

355 posts in this topic

Seems crazy to outlaw something that has a speed advantage, no moving parts, and requires nothing more from a technology standpoint. To me you can't green light canting keels and forbid wide bows. It's stupid.

+1

 

Many in the Moth class thought foiling would be unworkable.

 

The Mini is the very epitome of a development class, so outlawing scows would be the end of the road for them.

 

I do think they're ugly and it will be a very slowly acquired taste, for me, if the scow bow predominates the class in the future.

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Yve-Maries rendering also shows it's increasing the Cp as it heels which increases the S/L. Scows have always worked this way. Sticking a pointy bow in does nothing for Cp. The more breeze you have, the more you heel, the more Cp you have the faster you go. I think that's how it works. Maybe Yves-Marie can double check my logic.

 

Think of what Beneteau could do with that bow volume in their mom and pop cruising boats. It makes me shudder.

 

Bob, your point about Cp sounds extremely valid to me.

 

Besides "the more Cp the faster you go" I believe, despite my lack of N.A education ;), that there are other advantages.

 

As it happens, one of the companies I'm involved in, has built Scow S.U.P boards, 18 months ago, mostly out of curiosity.

Of course, those crafts do no take advantage of heeling and are 4-5 kts shit-objects, except....... in Downwind races when true speeds are attained from surfing a significant swell.

That's where the Scow really paid off !

The nearly straight outline "sides" all the way to the bow mean that the board-front is much much less prone to yawing and tripping (if at all) than a pointed bow.

It might not be faster when everything goes well, but maintains a more constant speed while being much more comfortable

Misplacement on the swell and/or loss of lateral balance do not require as much attention and concentration anymore and the longer the race the larger is the difference.

 

I have noticed that 747 built its lead in rather strong winds from well aft and was most probably surfing (like others) rather large waves.

"The wind consistently exceeds thirty knots as one moves away from the coast and the combination of a breeze over a residual northwesterly swell"

While Lipinski described his dismasting "I had a first warning last night hurtling down a steeper than usual wave. Result, I broached violently".

 

747 also sailed in a much straighter line than all, bar one at a time, when you can see the rest of the fleet gybing and gybing back all the way down.

 

I therefore suspect that 747 has shown an other advantage of scows offshore: handling the downwind waves better and being less demanding on the skipper and auto-pilot alike.

Other boats look to have been as fast or faster at times, but none has been that consistant.

 

Just the 2cts of an observing follower :).

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Another advantage for the Scow shape is that with heel, the displacement is distributed on a longer trajectory,

giving a shallower mid body with a high aspect ratio A skipping stone.

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All the above in relation to 747 makes sense to me. I'm still amazed noone went the same route after the last Transat, seems to me everyone else is too afraid to take the risk.

 

Funny people are too afraid to go with the risks in the mini fleet, where everything gets tried first.

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It was more about France being in an economic horror show, and no one having the cash to do a new boat, rather than risk aversion.

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All the above in relation to 747 makes sense to me. I'm still amazed noone went the same route after the last Transat, seems to me everyone else is too afraid to take the risk.

 

Funny people are too afraid to go with the risks in the mini fleet, where everything gets tried first.

 

No fear of any sort!

- No money available just meant two proto new-builds in 2 years against 42 series boats.

- There is no post-2011 design available in series production (Argo was launched in 2012 but project had been started much earlier).

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All the above in relation to 747 makes sense to me. I'm still amazed noone went the same route after the last Transat, seems to me everyone else is too afraid to take the risk.

 

Funny people are too afraid to go with the risks in the mini fleet, where everything gets tried first.

 

No fear of any sort!

- No money available just meant two proto new-builds in 2 years against 42 series boats.

- There is no post-2011 design available in series production (Argo was launched in 2012 but project had been started much earlier).

I meant in Proto only- I understand the series reasons.

 

Christ I only know now that only 2 were built since the last! That is crazy. There really is no money to go around, have any IMOCAs been built even?

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It's not the first time, won't be the last.

 

Question is, with the class outlaw it?

If it makes all other minis obsolete - YES.

 

When was the last time you saw an International Moth competitive without foils?

 

I can't think of any greater honor for the designer than to have their design banned, simply because it was too good.

 

Go the SCOW!!

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Speaking of series... has anybody made note of how incredibly close the first 3 series boats are to the head of the fleet overall? I know that one is the Nacira: 810. in fact, just checked, the other 2 "podium" places are... Nacira: 810 819 824

 

Capeau!

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What's really amazing to me is that the top Series is top 5 overall.

 

BTW Clean, I live in France. its not any more or less an economic horror show than it was when Raison built his. the real reason I suspect is that with the change in the course no one was quite sure what would be succesful, and it wasn't even clear that it was the boat and not the driver last time.

 

Go NAKED RETREATS!!!

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Looks like Giancarlo on mini 747 is diving down to get well below the Azores High. Pretty bold move for the front runner.

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Too early to say for sure but looking like a mis-step for 747. Going to leeward of Gran Canaria and Tenerife will be less wind. As of 2000 report 754 was only 1.3nm behind in distance to finish. I would give 754 the edge in VMG running. And 667 is probably a little better still

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Speaking of series... has anybody made note of how incredibly close the first 3 series boats are to the head of the fleet overall? I know that one is the Nacira: 810. in fact, just checked, the other 2 "podium" places are... Nacira: 810 819 824

 

Capeau!

Chapeau... ooops

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Too early to say for sure but looking like a mis-step for 747. Going to leeward of Gran Canaria and Tenerife will be less wind. As of 2000 report 754 was only 1.3nm behind in distance to finish. I would give 754 the edge in VMG running. And 667 is probably a little better still

 

 

well the traditional route is to go pretty far south before heading west

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Speaking of series... has anybody made note of how incredibly close the first 3 series boats are to the head of the fleet overall? I know that one is the Nacira: 810. in fact, just checked, the other 2 "podium" places are... Nacira: 810 819 824

 

Capeau!

Chapeau... ooops

I want a nacira with a Canting Keel...

http://www.minitransat.fr/performances-statistiques

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Nice carnage again.

 

In the past on the same route it was always a gamble how to tackle the Canaries, But a lot more went more south then now I think to remember.

 

Good to see 240 Sampaquita back in the race, such a nice design.

 

And the Naciras in the top, I think al the speedy guys went for Nacira after Structures let the P2 go. I heard the after sales service of Nacira is good. Big bonus if true.

 

I am fan of the name Peter Punk, best name ever for me...

And I wish Rosen Jacobson the best, age 59 and doing well in the serie ranking.

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It is really impressive. I think on average the sailors in the series fleet are better. Having a simpler boat with fewer variables probably allows them to focus on the sailing part more. At least that's how it's played out the last few transats. Xavier Macaire in the Pogo 2 was a really good example of that. There are several.

 

+1 to Rober RJ. Super nice guy to boot.

 

 

What's amazing is that a Series Boat is 4th overall!!!

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The conditions so far are more a moral attack as well as a prove of boat handling and a good bunch of luck, than a (pure) boat speed contest. So with big winds from well behind, there is not much difference between a proto and a series boat. And the top 3 in series class are also the top 3 (OK, we should also add Renauld Mary) in terms of boat handling and preparation. Last years Azores race has shown the same situation, when Simon was even 2nd overall near the finish line ... and Aymeric won the race (because Simon hit a whale on leg 1) and Justine, who won leg 1 suffered rudder breakage during leg 2 ...

 

What's amazing is that a Series Boat is 4th overall!!!

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Amazing that some of the series boats are doing so well up against the protos. Lots of sailing talent there.

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What's really amazing to me is that the top Series is top 5 overall.

 

BTW Clean, I live in France. its not any more or less an economic horror show than it was when Raison built his. the real reason I suspect is that with the change in the course no one was quite sure what would be succesful, and it wasn't even clear that it was the boat and not the driver last time.

 

Go NAKED RETREATS!!!

 

Have you been seeking sponsorship in France for the past couple of years? I have, and the environment is quite a bit worse now, at least for that specific task.

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It is really impressive. I think on average the sailors in the series fleet are better. Having a simpler boat with fewer variables probably allows them to focus on the sailing part more. At least that's how it's played out the last few transats. Xavier Macaire in the Pogo 2 was a really good example of that. There are several.

 

+1 to Rober RJ. Super nice guy to boot.

 

 

What's amazing is that a Series Boat is 4th overall!!!

identical boats = development potential. Development = speed.

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Yes, he lost it due to hacking. There is talk about resurrecting it.

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It is really impressive. I think on average the sailors in the series fleet are better. Having a simpler boat with fewer variables probably allows them to focus on the sailing part more. At least that's how it's played out the last few transats. Xavier Macaire in the Pogo 2 was a really good example of that. There are several.

 

+1 to Rober RJ. Super nice guy to boot.

 

 

What's amazing is that a Series Boat is 4th overall!!!

identical boats = development potential. Development = speed.

Top Series Boats are now 4th, 5th and 6th. And all within 10nm. With his name, Alex de Beaufort HAS to design quick boats ;-)

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The conditions so far are more a moral attack as well as a prove of boat handling and a good bunch of luck, than a (pure) boat speed contest.

 

What's amazing is that a Series Boat is 4th overall!!!

I dunno. It would seem to me that the canting keel's ability to carry more sail area would very much make this a boat speed contest. Upwind while there is more RM with the canting keel, the limit still is largely waterline length - so I would think the speed diff would mostly show up once the sails get eased.

 

Happy to be edjerkated on this - as I've only sailed a mini in my dreams.

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Looks like those who took the more southern route will benefit from greater wind over the next 30-36 hours. After that, everyone should be in some really light stuff. Going to be interesting.

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In rough conditions and downwind, if you have guts youre fast. Still the protos are faster. Would be embarrassing if a serie is in the lead :)

The one design=development=faster

This happens in the protos too, in the yrs you prepare you talk to other skippers.The minis are not that different anymore due to typeforming (except 747 again, thank you Raison). So a lot of technical stuff gets shared. Most miniist have no secrets, especially if you get them drunk.

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When comparing the Top 3 protos going the first few days keep in mind Delesne had problems with his fuel cell and was handsteering most of the time.

Having a look on the Top 3 series boats, I wonder if it would all be Naciras if Lipinski would still be in the race.

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So after 6 days and 22hours 747 has a 4.5nm lead and is ~95nm to the south. My tiny little mind can not fully grasp how two very different boats could possibly be THAT close after so long a distance.

 

With the gap i would think one or the other would simply be in better pressure and be gone by now, if they were on the same line the second would pass the same point within 30-40 minutes of the first...and they don't even know where the other guy is?

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So after 6 days and 22hours 747 has a 4.5nm lead and is ~95nm to the south. My tiny little mind can not fully grasp how two very different boats could possibly be THAT close after so long a distance.

 

With the gap i would think one or the other would simply be in better pressure and be gone by now, if they were on the same line the second would pass the same point within 30-40 minutes of the first...and they don't even know where the other guy is?

If conventional wisdom on the strategy for this course is to be believed, 747 further south has the `money in the bank'. With 100 nm separation it'll be obvious soon, I'd think.

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Time will tell. That scow is just impressing me more and more- it's not slower in the conditions that don't suit it and in the conditions that do it is GONE.

 

So much respect to Raison for having the balls to run with it in the first place.

 

Giancarlo isn't bad either ;)

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So after 6 days and 22hours 747 has a 4.5nm lead and is ~95nm to the south. My tiny little mind can not fully grasp how two very different boats could possibly be THAT close after so long a distance.

 

With the gap i would think one or the other would simply be in better pressure and be gone by now, if they were on the same line the second would pass the same point within 30-40 minutes of the first...and they don't even know where the other guy is?

If conventional wisdom on the strategy for this course is to be believed, 747 further south has the `money in the bank'. With 100 nm separation it'll be obvious soon, I'd think.

Except the tracker shows 747 gybing back north towards the lighter air....

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The fun part is the skippers now the ranking and miles separation, but that is all. No clue if they are close by or 100 miles north :)

And that is if you can or want to receive the radio broadcast.

 

Good to see Paris Texas sailing again, a mini with history.

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The whole matter of competitors not knowing where the others are is a bit of a misnomer.

 

There is a morning roll call each day and most competitors listen in to the whole thing; when the escort vessels repeat positions called in to them it is possible to get locations of folks over 30 miles away. Possibly as much as 50 in some cases.

 

They are called in positions but because the boats also have trackers there is no planned deception during roll call like has happened in other races.

 

On the race front, the organizers a looking at a nightmare scenario with how much the fleet is spread out and likely not having enough escort vessels to fully cover the fleet.

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Ah, thanks, really, thats new to me, when I was on a support vessel yrs ago, strictly forbidden to pass any competitor info.

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The fun part is the skippers now the ranking and miles separation, but that is all. No clue if they are close by or 100 miles north :)

And that is if you can or want to receive the radio broadcast.

 

Good to see Paris Texas sailing again, a mini with history.

What information do the mini-ists actually have to inform their race strategy? Do they get a daily weather bulletin? Are they allowed any GRIBs?

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No outside contact, period but for emergencies and the daily role call. They have to give organizers their cell phones before they leave.

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Also, little SSB receivers like the Grundig Yachtboy type. for weather forecasts and DTF's of competitors.

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So after 6 days and 22hours 747 has a 4.5nm lead and is ~95nm to the south. My tiny little mind can not fully grasp how two very different boats could possibly be THAT close after so long a distance.

 

With the gap i would think one or the other would simply be in better pressure and be gone by now, if they were on the same line the second would pass the same point within 30-40 minutes of the first...and they don't even know where the other guy is?

If conventional wisdom on the strategy for this course is to be believed, 747 further south has the `money in the bank'. With 100 nm separation it'll be obvious soon, I'd think.

Except the tracker shows 747 gybing back north towards the lighter air....

I'm not sure what your point is; he is further south than most of his competitors bar one and is in more pressure (currently). Since he doesn't know where his competitors are, his route is solely a reflection of his take on the weather and appropriate routing.

 

My point is he has covered more ground to get south for pressure and that may pay off.

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On the position locations BB is correct, the escort boats typically repeat the called in position back to the boat who called it in. This is what others can hear.

 

As for what the competitors have; a SSB receiver, a VHF, now AIS, the tracker issued them.

 

The SSB unit can pick up whatever weather broadcasts the skipper wants. Classe Mini buys time on one of the stations (Radio Monaco in 2009) to give weather briefings and position (distance to finish) as well as any other announcements. The other announcements can be requests for boats whose trackers are not working to call in or such.

 

The tracker is a self contained box with three buttons; green, yellow and red. Green is default all is fine. Yellow is if there is a problem but can be solved by the skipper. Red is a problem but not to the severity of pulling the pin on the EPIRB. If a mast goes over the side but the skipper can jury rig and sail to a port they probably would push the red button.

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Diane Reid has dismasted, So not much luck in being a north american skipper this year.

She hasn't abandoned yet and is heading to Lanzarote. Seems that there's still (some) hope in her continuing.

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ctutmark, when you say position in ' the escort boats typically repeat the called in position back to the boat ' do you mean ranking or lat long?

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Sailors send their position (LAT/LON) and this might be repeated. Actually, I found this pretty annoying, as most was in french and it didn't help me that much during my CM races ...

 

 

ctutmark, when you say position in ' the escort boats typically repeat the called in position back to the boat ' do you mean ranking or lat long?

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Diane Reid has dismasted, So not much luck in being a north american skipper this year.

She hasn't abandoned yet and is heading to Lanzarote. Seems that there's still (some) hope in her continuing.

Well Craig Horsfield of Naked Retreats is still in it. In the top 10 even

http://www.minitransat.fr/system/files/styles/photos_180x125/private/galeries_photo/_jva5545.jpg?itok=M5xeTK-D

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Diane Reid has dismasted, So not much luck in being a north american skipper this year.

She hasn't abandoned yet and is heading to Lanzarote. Seems that there's still (some) hope in her continuing.

Well Craig Horsfield of Naked Retreats is still in it. In the top 10 even

http://www.minitransat.fr/system/files/styles/photos_180x125/private/galeries_photo/_jva5545.jpg?itok=M5xeTK-D

I stand corrected. Didn't know he was from the States. They have him marked down as South African.

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That's terrible about 151 too. Legendary and gorgeous Finot Proto. Glad to here the skipper is okay. That looked really sketchy. This year seems particularly smashed up for minis. The fleet is hugely spread out with many protos stopping etc...

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Diane Reid has dismasted, So not much luck in being a north american skipper this year.

She hasn't abandoned yet and is heading to Lanzarote. Seems that there's still (some) hope in her continuing.

Well Craig Horsfield of Naked Retreats is still in it. In the top 10 even

http://www.minitransat.fr/system/files/styles/photos_180x125/private/galeries_photo/_jva5545.jpg?itok=M5xeTK-D

I stand corrected. Didn't know he was from the States. They have him marked down as South African.

Born in SA, but has US citizenship - lives in Seattle.

His second go at this. I think he's an addict

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ctutmark, when you say position in ' the escort boats typically repeat the called in position back to the boat ' do you mean ranking or lat long?

Lat/lon. Typically what would happen is boats call in their position to the escort boat and the escort boat then repeats the position back to confirm. Anyone who can hear the escort boat gets the position. For this year, the north/south spread is getting large enough that this may not be a factor

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BTW LeoV, why is the miniforum out of use, was it Nico G who run it at least?

 

Its online again, thanks to Chris Luckyman (real surname I do no give without permission :) )

A german who helped me with it in the past too.

So thanks to him it works again.

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Thanks Finn for the explanation.

How useful is the satellite radio RECIEVER, I believe they are now accepted.

 

Damn, sorry to hear about Reid, stupid masts... should be replaced every two yrs if racing hard... (is my personal opinion, I know budgets are tight for a lot)

And its a deckstepped one to boot.

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Great and thank you also to Chris - nice thing although I already got used to use SA as the Mini-Forum ...

 

 

BTW LeoV, why is the miniforum out of use, was it Nico G who run it at least?

 

Its online again, thanks to Chris Luckyman (real surname I do no give without permission :) )

A german who helped me with it in the past too.

So thanks to him it works again.

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Cool to see so many series boats up at the pointy end with the protos.

 

It looks tricky out there right now.

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You know all the guys at the front are working their asses off right now. No sleep on 747.

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Watching the latest tracking, it is hard to believe 747 does not know where is competitors are. Masterful covering right now....Just sayin'-it looks like he knows where to go and when.....

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OH MY GOD! What are you suggesting!?! Rules are rule Sol...

 

Just so you know, I'm still wearing a yellow wrist band.

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Watching the latest tracking, it is hard to believe 747 does not know where is competitors are. Masterful covering right now....Just sayin'-it looks like he knows where to go and when.....

 

I was thinking that... but it stands to reason that they'll unconsciously gybe on the same wind shifts etc etc. If you straightened out their wakes they'd just look like they where in the same patch of ocean.

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OH MY GOD! What are you suggesting!?! Rules are rule Sol...

 

Just so you know, I'm still wearing a yellow wrist band.

Hilarious, and good to know you have your wrist band on! To Cunning Ham's post above, I agree the smart guys will gybe on the same shifts, but over the last 36 hours or so (with the exception of 1 gybe which did not last long) 747 seemed to really work hard to prevent Benoit from getting any leverage on either side, and seemed to get himself directly in front of him (sometimes at the expense of what looked like a better move towards better forecast breeze). Looks tactical to me. Of course I know the rules here, and am not really suggesting 747 is doing anything untoward (or at least different than anyone else in the race), but I am saying some of the moves out there LOOK very tactical in relation to competitors behind.

Who the hell knows? One hell of a race going on, that is for sure..

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AIS is mandatory nowadays and 667 is within range of 747. Of course they could switch it off once they are out of high traffic areas.

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He's very in range now. Lead has been chipped away to the point that 747 will be able to cover boat for boat just from being on deck.

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I wonder if 747 has sails problems or if the Finot design likes light air better.

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To me it looks like 741 and possibly 810 have very good positions and some good wind ahead and better angle to finish.

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Yes if you look at 741 route you will notice that he is not afraid from strategic moves and that he's been sailing boldly (crossed the whole fleet after Lanzarote and stayed close to Portugal while everybody was going away). i would quite like to see him come through underneath. But 747 will accelerate when the trade winds become stronger so he needs to make gains quickly if he wants to stand a chance...

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Tradewinds will not be stable for at least 2 days, thats a mental battle.

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Tracker's showing a good look for the scow. In the lead and now faster than anyone after a prolonged mid atlantic knife fight.

 

Broad reaching on starboard gybe into increasing breeze with less than 1000mn to go - IIRC from the Seahorse article after the last MT this is where the scow really stretched its legs.

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It was- on a reach noone can catch it and it's no slower on any other leg.

Thing seems to be built like a bomb shelter too.

 

Such an impressive design

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It was- on a reach noone can catch it and it's no slower on any other leg.

Thing seems to be built like a bomb shelter too.

 

Such an impressive design

If I had the budget for a proto, that's what I would go for.

 

That said, Benoit Marie is currently running 2.5 knots faster.... Just sayin

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This is game over. 2 days to go and not much passing lanes in the last sprint to Meta.

Let see if finally a scow design will be implemented in larger boats after several years now of unmatched performances and a striking winning series.

 

Good thing, the proto fleet will have an attractive price from now on.

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it aint over till the FLS.

 

But interesting in general, the battle in the protos is more exciting then in the series, and though the serie fleet is bigger, the spread is almost the same.

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it aint over till the FLS.

 

But interesting in general, the battle in the protos is more exciting then in the series, and though the serie fleet is bigger, the spread is almost the same.

 

Quite right, LeoV. Only have to remember what happened to Sam Manuard and Jonathan McKee a few years back. Both looked like they had the race sewn up... until their rigs came down. Manuard was almost to Brazil at the time. Of course, now he designs boats that win the TJV. :)

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Under 300nm to go. The scow's lead is now under 20nm and it's going 2+ knots slower than Benoit Marie at the moment.

 

Lots of meat left on that bone.

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Is the scow #747? If so, I can't see it on the list of entrants, or am I looking in the wrong place?

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Is the scow #747? If so, I can't see it on the list of entrants, or am I looking in the wrong place?

He's showing on the tracker. But is slower than 667 by 1.4knots and is 8.7nm back with barely 150nm left to go (0800 poll). The speed is instantaneous when the tracker pings in so could be a sail change. Would be heartbreaking for Giancarlo to lose it right at the end. 4th and 5th in proto is still close. In the Series boats it looks like 810 could to be the 6th boat to finish in addition to winning the Series. Impressive.

 

http://www.minitransat.fr/cartographie?lang=en

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Is the scow #747? If so, I can't see it on the list of entrants, or am I looking in the wrong place?

He's showing on the tracker. But is slower than 667 by 1.4knots and is 8.7nm back with barely 150nm left to go (0800 poll). The speed is instantaneous when the tracker pings in so could be a sail change. Would be heartbreaking for Giancarlo to lose it right at the end. 4th and 5th in proto is still close. In the Series boats it looks like 810 could to be the 6th boat to finish in addition to winning the Series. Impressive.

 

http://www.minitransat.fr/cartographie?lang=en

Thanks for the link

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Fat lady hasn't sung yet. Forecast is for it to go lighter and give them a header putting 747 on the inside of a 45 deg header downwind...

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If I can manage to get the tech and time zones working between Kuala Lumpur and the Caribbean I will be interviewing Benoit tomorrow morning. Please post questions here if you have any! Have not had time to follow the race much so your expertise and interest would be a big help!

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How did you decide what route to take?

What do you think of the Scow Bow's speed relative to your boat's?

What do you think of the new course?

Are you going to DisneyLand?

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Hi all, first post. Sure am glad I found you guys. Long time interested in Mini's, but info hard to find. This has been a great way to follow the race with input from knowledgable sailors. Thanx much.

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What was his rational in staying high at the Canaries split? Was this move part of the game plan when leaving Sada?

What was his thinking when dropping a 20nm lead into a 50nm deficit and making that up in what seemed plainly a speed advantage over Giancarlo within the last 48 hours of the race?

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