Tyvek headsail

[BtC 0]

The Wavelength 24 class of the St Pete NOOD was won by White Donkey using a Tyvek #1 with carbon tapes. I had an opportunity to discuss the sail with a sailmaker who told me that they last 3-4 times longer than a mylar sail because they don't shrink as much, they weigh about half (9 pounds vs. 17 for a kevlar/mylar sail), and they cost about half the price. What are your thoughts regarding a Tyvek headsail vs. a traditional carbon or kevlar sail?

[B.J. Porter 1,063]

The Wavelength 24 class of the St Pete NOOD was won by White Donkey using a Tyvek #1 with carbon tapes. I had an opportunity to discuss the sail with a sailmaker who told me that they last 3-4 times longer than a mylar sail because they don't shrink as much, they weigh about half (9 pounds vs. 17 for a kevlar/mylar sail), and they cost about half the price. What are your thoughts regarding a Tyvek headsail vs. a traditional carbon or kevlar sail?

If they could be made out of all the used Oompa-Loompa suits we have left after wetsanding it would be a real cost saver...

 

Isn't Tyvek a sort of plastic?

[spectator 3]

Tyvek is great stuff. I use it as a ground cloth and poncho when I go solo camping. It actually transports moisture kinda like gore-tex. It's ultra-lite but tough as nails. The one problem I found it's a bitch to sew and perforates very easily if you hook it on something and pull. The material just collapses in that situation, but any other situation it's extremely strong with no stretch. It does start to pile like old Kevlar.

 

I would love to hear and see more of this sail. I wouldn't be surprised if starts getting used as sail cloth. This stuff has so many cross uses and keeps getting utilized for new uses, pretty amazing material. Although, I do have my doubts for it being used as a solid sail material.

 

Cheers

[Delta Blues 3]

It's about $100 for a 12' wide roll, 100' long.

 

It is cheap enough!

[Rusalka 0]

It's high density polyethylene fibers.

[B.J. Porter 1,063]

It's high density polyethylene fibers.

So it's a woven plastic fabric instead of a sheet like Saran wrap, or I assume Mylar?

 

I was always a little fuzzy on what part of the suits were Tvyvek - the liner, the whole thing, or something else.

[Rusalka 0]

It's high density polyethylene fibers.

So it's a woven plastic fabric instead of a sheet like Saran wrap, or I assume Mylar?

 

I was always a little fuzzy on what part of the suits were Tvyvek - the liner, the whole thing, or something else.

It's the crispy, slippery plastic stuff. It's not woven, I recall they spray the fibers and then sinter them under pressure.

 

It's the same material (but a different manufacturing process) as the handles of disposable razors and a billion other things.

 

I would guess the reason tyvek is cheaper than sailcloth is that they make billions of square feet of it a year.

[BtC 0]

So, has anybody seen or heard anything about it as a sail material. You can't misstake it when you see it. The sails are bright white except for the tapes.

[nroose 16]

The Wavelength 24 class of the St Pete NOOD was won by White Donkey using a Tyvek #1 with carbon tapes. I had an opportunity to discuss the sail with a sailmaker who told me that they last 3-4 times longer than a mylar sail because they don't shrink as much, they weigh about half (9 pounds vs. 17 for a kevlar/mylar sail), and they cost about half the price. What are your thoughts regarding a Tyvek headsail vs. a traditional carbon or kevlar sail?

Tell us who the sailmaker was please.

[BtC 0]

UK. A local boat hs one too. Also made by UK but in a different loft.

[Rusalka 0]

http://www.tyvek.com/whatistyvek.htm

[Clancy 0]

I would guess the reason tyvek is cheaper than sailcloth is that they make billions of square feet of it a year.

Like wrapping new homes in it (vapour barrier).

[BtC 0]

I would guess the reason tyvek is cheaper than sailcloth is that they make billions of square feet of it a year.

Like wrapping new homes in it (vapour barrier).

The technical term is semi-permeable membrane because it does breathe, but I won't split hairs with you over that. Thread hijacking diverted. Now, back to my question regarding Tyvek sails...

[DougV 0]

This would be a real shock if it's the same tyvek you wrap your house in. Does that mean we can all go to home depot for sails know. Gotta hear more on this topic. I mean my whole house is wrapped in the stuff it's cheap as hell.

[DA-WOODY 830]

Back to FUTURE

 

 

San Diego Beer Cans 2003

 

 

Not a great moment but they did good !

 

 

 

Test System uses a Dispenser with a Sharp Edge

 

 

Sail Un-Rolls as needed

 

Then as you round the Mark Just Tear Off and Throw Away

 

Idealy next boat will snag it

 

 

AND it Dose'nt Snow Here Too

 

 

Were SOOOOO Ahead

 

Great for Rain Gear and Cone shape Hats

[Raz'r 1,263]

Sounds like they can spin the HDPE differently for different uses - so probably not exactly the same as the house wrap or the spaceman spiff suits.

[2slow 47]

Is the reason for the high cost of sails materials or labor? What is the breakdown between the two?

[Rusalka 0]

Is the reason for the high cost of sails materials or labor? What is the breakdown between the two?

Small volume, custom work means high prices.

 

Not a lot of sails are made, so not a lot of sailcloth is made. So materials are expensive.

 

Sailmaking is custom work.

[DA-WOODY 830]

Is the reason for the high cost of sails materials or labor?  What is the breakdown between the two?

Small volume, custom work means high prices.

 

Not a lot of sails are made, so not a lot of sailcloth is made. So materials are expensive.

 

Sailmaking is custom work.

The Dispenser System is Indispensable

 

Un-Roll to match conditions Just carry a tape measure

 

Not recommended for One Design when Corporate Logos are not allowed

 

Check Regatta SI’s

[2slow 47]

Is the reason for the high cost of sails materials or labor?  What is the breakdown between the two?

Small volume, custom work means high prices.

 

Not a lot of sails are made, so not a lot of sailcloth is made. So materials are expensive.

 

Sailmaking is custom work.

Thanks for not answering my question Rusalka. No shit sails are custom and sail fabric is expensive. You usually give a little more detail in your answers like cost of different weight dacrons in different locations and cost of labor in those locations.

I think you are slipping.

[BtC 0]

I was told a Tyvek #1 would cost about $900 and the same sail in Kevlar would be around $1700. I was also told that Dupont makes umpteen different materials that are called Tyvek. By the way, they do not come with the Tyvek House Wrap logo in blue printed all over them. Just White with black tapes.

[Laserslave 0]

sooo there makin sails out of saran wrap ey?...whats next aluminum foil??? oh wait nvm its it will loose it shape after the first tack

[Foredeck Shuffle 31]

Test System uses a Dispenser with a Sharp Edge

 

Sail Un-Rolls as needed

 

Then as you round the Mark Just Tear Off and Throw Away

Soooooo ghetto. Funny though.

 

Is this your spinnaker?

[BtC 0]

Hey "Bill the Cat"

As being the creator of these sails, let me set the record straight.

First, the material is PE hard structure film.

We use it to check sail shapes, it just happens to be really fast.

It is not an official product, it is still being evaluated.

The price was more off the cuff, at the rum party, for my 'friend'.

We have a very unique tape that works with that material

The material is isotropic in strength, no thread line.

It is only applicable in headsails on smaller boats.

It is much more expensive than a dollar a yard.

Not only did White Donkey win this years Nationals with one, it also won last years event with the same sail. As a matter of point, last year the first and second place wavelengths used PE sails.

 

Hope this helps.

Didn't mean to berate the sails by calling them Tyvek. They look good from where I was sitting and from up close, and are obviously fast. I just wanted to hear what others think of them. They are at the very least innovative. I'm thinking hard about one for Bill.

[barleymalt 47]

The Wavelength 24 class of the St Pete NOOD was won by White Donkey using a Tyvek #1 with carbon tapes. I had an opportunity to discuss the sail with a sailmaker who told me that they last 3-4 times longer than a mylar sail because they don't shrink as much, they weigh about half (9 pounds vs. 17 for a kevlar/mylar sail), and they cost about half the price. What are your thoughts regarding a Tyvek headsail vs. a traditional carbon or kevlar sail?

Tell us who the sailmaker was please.

Home Depot

[BtC 0]

So much bad comedy, so little useful information. I guess that is what I get for asking a serious question on an anrachist's website.

[DA-WOODY 830]

So much bad comedy, so little useful information. I guess that is what I get for asking a serious question on an anrachist's website.

You should know that Experts + Ddesigners of Tyvek

 

Would be on a "ROLL"

 

Aded Feature is Home Depot's Return Policy

 

And I even gave you a picture to boot

[Kevlar Edge 10]

So much bad comedy, so little useful information. I guess that is what I get for asking a serious question on an anrachist's website.

You really think anyone here is going to take a tyvek sail or anyone asking about it seriously, who makes them ghetto sailmakers in da bronx gimme a break

[DA-WOODY 830]

So much bad comedy, so little useful information. I guess that is what I get for asking a serious question on an anrachist's website.

You really think anyone here is going to take a tyvek sail or anyone asking about it seriously, who makes them ghetto sailmakers in da bronx gimme a break

PLEASE refrain from using

 

"DA" even lower case

 

in a homo thread

 

 

 

(Standard disclaimer)

[cheapshacht 0]

So much bad comedy, so little useful information. I guess that is what I get for asking a serious question on an anrachist's website.

You really think anyone here is going to take a tyvek sail or anyone asking about it seriously, who makes them ghetto sailmakers in da bronx gimme a break

You would [take it seriously] if you saw the sail at St Pete. It worked very well for White Donkey. It was a very odd looking sail but it was obviously very fast. Don't laugh 'til you've seen it in action. My guess is that you will see more of these sails flying in the next several years.

 

 

identity crisis: the sail on White Donkey was a lite #1, correct? Can you use the same material for a heavy 1 or 1+? Or for that matter, would you contemplate using that material for heavier sails, like a #3? I would think you could provided that the tapes are carrying the load.

[Shife 10]

So much bad comedy, so little useful information. I guess that is what I get for asking a serious question on an anrachist's website.

If you are unhappy with the answers provided here you could always go over to the boat design forum and chat with Frank. I sure he could shed some insight on inducing 4th mode using recycled plastic sails.

[Millhouse 0]

Shit, i'll give you some for cheap, we just put it on the new house last weekend and i have some leftovers, who needs that fancy carbon tape, i got a roll of duct tape, i'll sell anybody as a pacage deal for $4... who wouldnt want to look like that Mac 26

[sailjet 0]

Tyvek is just another polyethylene such as dacron.The property of one plastic is not the same as another even though they are both from ethylene. There are hundreds of plastic products made from ethylene such as mylar and dacron they all start from ethylene but end up with different charistics depending on the proscess and catilyst used in the process. Basicly everything is built on the all mighty barrel of oil.

[GnD 0]

Tyvek and packing tape.

 

Cutting edge and at a price. That is the right direction.

[DA-WOODY 830]

Shit, i'll give you some for cheap, we just put it on the new house last weekend and i have some leftovers, who needs that fancy carbon tape, i got a roll of duct tape, i'll sell anybody as a pacage deal for $4... who wouldnt want to look like that Mac 26

A sharp Eye indeed

 

The picture "is" of a Mac26 Non- X in the 5th mode

 

The owners are great people, and Friends! (who have never heard of frank)

 

I feel sorry for every Mac owner whenever I hear the "Frrrrrr" word

 

(Forever Ranting And Not Knowing) or "FRANK"

 

To think a Mac26 in a San Diego Beer Can Race would be two years ahead of the TYVEK Learning Curve,

 

Followed by a White Donkey

 

COOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

As no one pointed out yet: this Mac26 with a TYVEK Head-Sail looks to be: sailling faster than the wind (5th mode)

 

How is it that people in San Diego can be so Futuristic in Designing Yachts

[Millhouse 0]

Yeah, i dont s'much feel empathy towards Mac owners... Its true i have a tarnished past, once i did sail on a Mac26 (Pre-X) When they still resembled somewhat of a sailboat. But i just thought that a Tyvek HOUSEWRAP sail was so perfect for a MacGregor Owner. In all honestly my inference is that they discovered this works by mistake, the owner was too cheap to order a new sail so he used the leftovers for a recent construction project. He/She (to be PC) most likely had two choices, Tyvec or Tarpolyn and who would want to ruin a perfect tarpolyn that you use as a sunshade?

[DA-WOODY 830]

So much bad comedy, so little useful information. I guess that is what I get for asking a serious question on an anrachist's website.

You really think anyone here is going to take a tyvek sail or anyone asking about it seriously, who makes them ghetto sailmakers in da bronx gimme a break

You would [take it seriously] if you saw the sail at St Pete. It worked very well for White Donkey. It was a very odd looking sail but it was obviously very fast. Don't laugh 'til you've seen it in action. My guess is that you will see more of these sails flying in the next several years.

 

 

identity crisis: the sail on White Donkey was a lite #1, correct? Can you use the same material for a heavy 1 or 1+? Or for that matter, would you contemplate using that material for heavier sails, like a #3? I would think you could provided that the tapes are carrying the load.

Part of the wonder of the TYVEK Head-Sail

 

is how the tape in the corners can hold "ALL" the Load

 

The 2nd Generation shall have Wire ties Taped to the corners

 

as the "Racing Test" Zip-Ties, though lighter were a M-F to release for Spin Set's

[Alan H 101]

This is not a new idea. Tyvek...hosue wrap... is not a unidirectional fiber-type material...it's equally strong in all directions. The fibers are pretty randomly oriented. There are also several grades or thicknesses of tyvek. The stuff you see in envelopes is the really light stuff.

 

I hate to pop your balloon, but...

 

http://www.boat-links.com/Tyvek/

 

http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/TyvekSail.htm

 

http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/0801/

 

There's a lot more if you look.. Remember the fun ideas about the Home Depot 18 we bandied about around here a year or two ago? I was gonna make the mainsail for mine out of a white polyethylene tarp. I've seen a number of high-performance windsurfing sails that have used the stuff. My headsail was going to be out of tyvek.

 

Laugh all you want, but it'd work. You don't think so?

 

http://members.aol.com/polysail/HTML/kitcomps.htm

 

Get a REAL sailmaker onto this and there's no reason why tyvek can't be made into a decent sail for a smaller boat.

[pickles 0]

a lot of radio controled yachts ues tyvek for there sails cheap and strong and light and very eisy to get unless you are in aust where its rather difficult to get a hold off

[BtC 0]

In all honestly my inference is that they discovered this works by mistake, the owner was too cheap to order a new sail so he used the leftovers for a recent construction project. He/She (to be PC) most likely had two choices, Tyvec or Tarpolyn and who would want to ruin a perfect tarpolyn that you use as a sunshade?

However it was discovered, it works. Don't discount it just because it may have been serendipity. Many things were invented by mistake (not that these sails were developed by mistake) or just stumbled upon. Post-it notes, Lexan, Penicillin - the list goes on.

[GTim 16]

How bout some pics of the white donkey? Anyone?

 

So you're saying they donkey punched the rest of the fleet?

 

When I was about 13, we tried making sails for my friends laser2 from glad bags with duct tape reinforcing. It worked, not well, and..... looked like garbage. Guess I should have tried to patent that idea though eh?

[Guest the_fly]

Laugh all you want, but it'd work. You don't think so?

i agree i but as to the blue balzers well fuck im but theyd not likely like it ,....

[Millhouse 0]

Don't discount it just because it may have been serendipity

 

I wasn't discounting it because it was a serindipitus discovery, i was discounting the fact that a MACGREGOR! was the mad scientist that discovered it. You could compare it to, if a bayliner after he ran out of gas discovered that if you hold up a beech towel on a stick you can slowly move.

[The Squareman 0]

Source of Supply - small amounts

 

This can be purchased from Kite Shop - at about $3.50 / lineal yard - 60 inches wide. It is a bit softer "hand" (not as stiff) than "HouseWrap" and is unprinted. You can buy a few yards and just use two sided sailmaker's tape (3M or similar) to layout and cut/assemble your own. Tape works fine for r/c boats, but may want to overstitch the tape line. Use alcohol to keep glue from tape off needle.

 

Download free software for "SAILCUT" and have at it. Start small (jib) and give it a try. Will open a whole new world of interest (possibly) and it is cheap enough you can use for drop cloth or cover the wood pile if it doesn't work out.

 

Cheers.

 

EDIT: Added ----

Oh, and the white chemical spill suits make excellent (and very inexpensive) spray suits for catamarans and the wet crowd. You can get a box with a dozen suits in it for about $15.00 and a set of permanent markers will add any logo on it you can imagine. Seriously - they do work great as spray suits - and you don't seem to sweat in them either.

[torinv 0]

So much bad comedy, so little useful information. I guess that is what I get for asking a serious question on an anrachist's website.

"Serious" questions about Tyvek sails???

 

What sort of response did you think you'd get here?

[DA-WOODY 830]

Source of Supply - small amounts

 

This can be purchased from Kite Shop - at about $3.50 / lineal yard - 60 inches wide. It is a bit softer "hand" (not as stiff) than "HouseWrap" and is unprinted. You can buy a few yards and just use two sided sailmaker's tape (3M or similar) to layout and cut/assemble your own. Tape works fine for r/c boats, but may want to overstitch the tape line. Use alcohol to keep glue from tape off needle.

 

Download free software for "SAILCUT" and have at it. Start small (jib) and give it a try. Will open a whole new world of interest (possibly) and it is cheap enough you can use for drop cloth or cover the wood pile if it doesn't work out.

 

Cheers.

 

EDIT: Added ----

Oh, and the white chemical spill suits make excellent (and very inexpensive) spray suits for catamarans and the wet crowd. You can get a box with a dozen suits in it for about $15.00 and a set of permanent markers will add any logo on it you can imagine. Seriously - they do work great as spray suits - and you don't seem to sweat in them either.

WTF what with all the talk about:

 

Nneedles

 

Softer Hands

 

and wories about being (not as stiff) ?

 

And I highley recomend you Don't pick on the "RC" Boats or Your time won't be correct and you'll lose any protest

 

as fas as Unprinted goes

 

if you get beat " Hay you were flying House Wrap"

 

But what could be sweeter than

 

kicking some Arse with a $8.00 pice of "Scrap Rap"

 

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[The Squareman 0]

Hey Wood -

 

at least it doesn't stretch like a plastic garbage bag !

 

As for the other comments - perhaps you need to watch a few hours of WE Entertainment channel - you know - those "weird" guys who have fashion comments for people like us who coordinate a pair of checkered pants with a paisely shirt? Hell - I thought it looked good at the yacht club dinner. Next time, to hell with 'em - I'm wearing my green Hawaiian shirt with the orange tie and the lime green polyester slacks....

[Millhouse 0]

i hear there is a code. You know all of the gangs and whatnot they have there east side west side symbols, and stop me if im wrong but sailors on the;

East Coast wear Red Pants Blue Blazer

Midwest wear Orange Pants Blue Blazer

West Coast White Pants Blue Blazer

this of coarse is all formal "attire"

Kinda there own little gang signs, whatch out dont want to get in a rumble with ol DC's possy he will turn you red

[Guest Gutpile]

This shit makes me want to steal the house wrap from the new house being built across the street! I just want to show up with a home made Tyvek sail lookin' all serious. I'll be a pussy and wait for the last race of the series so I could use it as a throw out. I've done more whacked out shit then that burning a throw out! Probably wouldn't even get much of a look in the shit-hole I sail.

 

"Pile On"

[BtC 0]

Okay. MalDeMer also used one of those sails for every Thursday race that I can recall. Here are the results from the spring and summer series. The results speak for themselves.

 

1 Blade Runner 3 9.00 (7) (5) 1 1 3 1 2 1

2 Mal De Mer 12.00 3 1 (5) 2 2 3 1 (14)

3 Whirligig 28.25 9 (11) 2 4a (14) 7 4 2

4 Sled Slayer 36.00 3 11q (14) 3 1 4 (14) 14c

5 Wile-E 39.00 8 11f 8q 4 (14) 5 (14) 3

6 Little Hot 46.00 (14) 6% 4 5 (14) 14c 3 14c

7 Favorite Mista 48.00 (14) 11f 3 (14) 4 2 14c 14c

8 Barracuda 58.00 5 3 8q (14) (14) 14c 14c 14c

9 Bobsled 64.00 6 11f (14) (14) 14c 14c 14c 5f

10 Polywaug 72.00 (14) 2 (14) 14c 14c 14c 14c 14c

11 Evasive Action 72.00 2 (14) (14) 14c 14c 14c 14c 14c

12 Whiplash 74.00 4 (14) (14) 14c 14c 14c 14c 14c

13 SR - 627 75.00 (14) (14) 14c 14c 5 14c 14c 14c

 

 

1 Mal De Mer 10.00 1 1 2 (3) 1 3 2 (4)

2 Whiplash 12.00 2 4 (11) 2 (6) 2 1 1

3 Sled Slayer 16.00 4 2 1 1 (7) 1 7 (11)

4 Bobsled 24.33 4a 3 4 5 4 (6) 4 (10)

5 Blade Runner 3 27.00 3 6 5 4 5 4 (11) (7)

6 Wile-E 33.00 6 5 3 6 (8) (8) 8 5

7 Shillelagh 37.00 (11) (11) 11c 11c 3 5 5 2

8 Favorite Mistake 39.00 (11) (11) 11c 11c 2 7 5% 3

9 Whirligig 44.00 5 7 6 (11) (9) 9 9 8

10 Little Hot 56.00 (11) (11) 11c 11c 11c 11c 6 6

[BtC 0]

How many times have you used the sail? Am I correct in assuming you use it up to about 18 knots apparent?

 

By the way, Congratulations on your win.

[BtC 0]

Have you considered a main out of the same stuff?

[BtC 0]

as an aside..., Quote deleted to help avert a pissing match.

Crap. All I really wanted was some information on that really fast sail. If this is going to turn into a pissing match could you please take it to another thread.

 

By the way CS, my oven is about 5" too shallow to fab the new hatch. I'm thinking of cooking it on my BBQ instead. I think I can form the hatch half at a time.

[BeerDidClam 21]

Crap. All I really wanted was some information on that really fast sail. If this is going to turn into a pissing match could you please take it to another thread.

 

on second thought, you're right.

 

message deleted. I'll PM the dude instead.

 

good call Schacht and BtC

[cheapshacht 0]

side note: I did ot think the sail would make it through one season. Donkey has beeen using it heavily for two seasons and it is still fast.

WL24, I noticed that the area surrounding the tapes is puckered. Does the sail material shrink like mylar over time? Is this cause of the pucker? Whatever it is, it does not appear to affect its speed!

 

BTW, I did not see it above, but are the tapes carbon?

 

cheap