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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

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MidPack

Sail Technology vs LOA

31 posts in this topic

I've never seen an Opti or a Laser with 3Di/3DL and I've never seen a TP52 with Dacron sails - and wouldn't expect to (just an exaggerated example, I'm aware of class rules). From a sail shape POV (longevity and cost aside) - the stiff "no-stretch" of a 3Di would be an advantage in some conditions, while arguably the slight give of Dacron might be desirable in others, so neither is universally better?

 

For racing - any thoughts on where high tech sails make sense and where the benefits aren't likely justifiable? 20'? 25'? 30'? 35'? I realize it can't be a hard LOA crossover, and it may be Dacron for small racers, mid tech sails for mid size club racers and high tech sails for large Grand Prix racers. And it probably depends on local winds too (ie, San Francisco vs small inland lakes).

 

Clumsily framed on my part maybe (but not sure how to improve the OP), so please express your thoughts in whatever terms you're comfortable with...

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Stitched panel sails are expensive to build...labour. Hand made

 

Laminated sails are less labour intensive...like popping plastic boats out of a mold

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Laser class rules require that you buy a class sail. Most one design class dinghys have the same approach. Most other one-designs have severe restrictions on sail construction, all in an effort to reduce the benefits of a fat wallet and create a more level playing field.

 

Of course, nothing can stop people from spending $10K per season on bottom prep.

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Up to 28-30' I think a Dacron main is fine for most of us weekend hacks. You really need a lower stretch solution for a headsail though.

 

A better answer requires looking beyond LOA. My boat is 30' but has a relatively tall rig. Here on SF Bay I stretched out a Dacron main pretty quickly. I've used 3DL's (club-racing level) since, and they've been much better. Taffeta on at least one side solves the longevity concerns.

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3dis of the j88 were fantastic and felt right from a weight stand point also gives your more range so i would opt for them Have a dimension flex aramid jib on our sea sprite 23 works really we'll not too much more than polyester and has lasted well two plus seasons

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My windsurfers have pretty high tech sails, and they are only ~8ft long.

 

If you want a rule.., i would think in terms of righting moment

 

you probably want less deformable sails, as the load increases.

 

loads on different boats are mostly determined by their varying righting moment - a stiff boat stands up, and the loads increase, where as a boat that lacks stiffness will heel, limiting the loads that can develop.

 

so some ratio like : righting moment at 1degree / sail area

 

might be a start

 

windsurfers have pretty high righting moment relative to their sail area.., as do high performance dinghies and so on up to high performance keel boats.

 

tender keel boats - like narrow traditional keel boats will have a low RM/SA ratio, and would benefit less from high tech sails.

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3dis of the j88 were fantastic and felt right from a weight stand point also gives your more range so i would opt for the.

In what wind conditions?

 

Thanks BobJ & us7070, good thoughts...

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interesting question.

 

J35

 

I just got almost 4 full seasons out of a Dacron main from north. This thing survived Wed nights (Apr-Oct) and rather full season of weekend stuff.

And I'd still be content to use it here on Wed nights. but it's a pain to switch them out.

I will say this in praise of the sails, I saw no loss in performance when we switched to Dacron Main. none..

in fact, my main trimmers found it easier to trim correctly than the brand new 3DL I had built when I bought the boat.

We always had good boat speed against the other J35's around here.

We suffered from inconsistent crew attendance and tactical brain farts by me.

 

Over the same period I've burned thru 3 or 4 3DL #1's.

 

I think a Dacron sail might last a bit longer but not with the same performance.

The lamanate headsails really are faster out of the box and hold their shape longer than dacron in terms of deformation from wind loading.

However they just cannot survive the beating they take smacking against the rig and lifelines.

 

My #3 laminate sails hold up a lot longer since they don't suffer nearly as much abuse smackin up against the rig and lifelines.

 

 

my not directly answer your questions but may provide a couple data points from the 35' range

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Different take on method to answer this question.

 

Find a sailmaker you trust and can work with and really, really listen to what they say, especially if they actually make sails (instead of ordering them from China).

 

A good sailmaker has seen most of it if not all of it before, and will guide you in the right direction. Let it happen.

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Different take on method to answer this question.

 

Find a sailmaker you trust and can work with and really, really listen to what they say, especially if they actually make sails (instead of ordering them from China).

 

A good sailmaker has seen most of it if not all of it before, and will guide you in the right direction. Let it happen.

 

^Sound advice

 

As a sailmaker, it really depends on each customers needs as well as the boats characteristics and size. I would quote 2 very different inventories for the same 2 ~Beneteau 40.7's~ depending on what the needs and plans of the individuals purchasing and using the sails tells me before we start discussing anything else.

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Different take on method to answer this question.Find a sailmaker you trust and can work with and really, really listen to what they say, especially if they actually make sails (instead of ordering them from China).A good sailmaker has seen most of it if not all of it before, and will guide you in the right direction. Let it happen.

Wish I could, but when a sailmaker and another non-sailmaker both with equally impressive sailing resumes disagree? Sailmaker is entitled to make a living, so I wouldn't blame them for up selling. That's why I was hoping for other insights here, though for all I know some replies are from sailmakers...

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Different take on method to answer this question.Find a sailmaker you trust and can work with and really, really listen to what they say, especially if they actually make sails (instead of ordering them from China).A good sailmaker has seen most of it if not all of it before, and will guide you in the right direction. Let it happen.

Wish I could, but when a sailmaker and another non-sailmaker both with equally impressive sailing resumes disagree? Sailmaker is entitled to make a living, so I wouldn't blame them for up selling. That's why I was hoping for other insights here, though for all I know some replies are from sailmakers...

 

Making a living in a sport as small and interconnected as ours means not selling someone something they do not need. The single most important word that I don't hear enough when customers are considering options is "Value". There are times when best value is white triangle from internet sailoft, but most other times, value is somewhere between that and a full carbon sail as seen on all the glossy pics of Grand Prix boats worldwide. A good sailmaker will discuss the options that he/she feels best support the customers needs and know that that guy will tell all of his dock neighbors what a great experience it was.

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Sail the 88 with 3dis across the range 8 knots - 25 knots good all the time

We face a lot of racing at less than 8 knots in July & Aug. While we see 25 knots and (much) more from tIme to time, we average about 12 knots over our season. I wonder how 3Di's will do in light air vs other construction sails...

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I sail on a 40fter that i sail on got a new 3di LT1 this past summer - i think it's the 780, but don't remember for sure.., maybe it's the 870.., i know it's got carbon in it...

 

anyway, it sure seems like a nice light air sail to me - it is fully powered in about 8kts TWS.

 

the boat didn't have a true LT1 before this, so I can't really say it's faster than a non-3di sail, but there is certainly no problem with it.

 

the sail looks great after one season, and it was sailed pretty overpowered a few times.

 

hopefully someone with more experience can give you better info.

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My windsurfers have pretty high tech sails, and they are only ~8ft long.

 

If you want a rule.., i would think in terms of righting moment

 

you probably want less deformable sails, as the load increases.

 

loads on different boats are mostly determined by their varying righting moment - a stiff boat stands up, and the loads increase, where as a boat that lacks stiffness will heel, limiting the loads that can develop.

 

so some ratio like : righting moment at 1degree / sail area

 

might be a start

 

windsurfers have pretty high righting moment relative to their sail area.., as do high performance dinghies and so on up to high performance keel boats.

 

tender keel boats - like narrow traditional keel boats will have a low RM/SA ratio, and would benefit less from high tech sails.

 

good idea in general but I would rather take the max. RM inside heel angle range a particular boat sails in. The old traditional boats may not have a high RM @ 1deg but @ 20-30deg.

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My windsurfers have pretty high tech sails, and they are only ~8ft long.

 

If you want a rule.., i would think in terms of righting moment

 

you probably want less deformable sails, as the load increases.

 

loads on different boats are mostly determined by their varying righting moment - a stiff boat stands up, and the loads increase, where as a boat that lacks stiffness will heel, limiting the loads that can develop.

 

so some ratio like : righting moment at 1degree / sail area

 

might be a start

 

windsurfers have pretty high righting moment relative to their sail area.., as do high performance dinghies and so on up to high performance keel boats.

 

tender keel boats - like narrow traditional keel boats will have a low RM/SA ratio, and would benefit less from high tech sails.

 

good idea in general but I would rather take the max. RM inside heel angle range a particular boat sails in. The old traditional boats may not have a high RM @ 1deg but @ 20-30deg.

 

probably nearly every boat has a higher RM at 20deg than 1deg..

 

nevertheless, the stress on the sail while sailing is going to be higher on a modern race boat than on an older design - because of their greater stiffness.

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Lots of good ideas here... My experience is rig loads are directly related to how easily the boat planes. Boats that are locked into hull speed see really high "static" loads. Cloth distortion loads are related to apparent wind. What is the average apparent wind for the vessel?

 

Heavy dacron makes sense for cruisers where the handling may be the biggest wear factor.

High tech makes sense where apparent wind distortion is problematic.

 

Just guessing.

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Three factors:

 

1. Righting moment (note to the OP, this generally increase with boat size)

 

2. Aspect ratio

 

3. Crew trim skill

 

In racing, fancy sails are really "a prisoners delemna". If the other guy does it, you have to; but if you both agree not to, you can have just as good racing at lower cost.

 

There is a break point . . . . When the loads are such that in Dacron you need a two ply leach it is pretty clearly time to go laminate.

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This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape.

 

Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.

 

Nice boat shame about the sails.

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In racing, fancy sails are really "a prisoners delemna". If the other guy does it, you have to; but if you both agree not to, you can have just as good racing at lower cost.

 

 

 

 

This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class.

 

 

Pretty much what I already said, just more colorful language.

 

It's a spending arm's race, unless the class agrees to control it. And frankly, generally, sailing as a sport has done poorly at standing up to the sail makers and helping the owners minimize the arms race (less well than other equipment sports).

 

That all said - great sailors with shitty sails will always beat poor sailors with fancy sails.

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In racing, fancy sails are really "a prisoners delemna". If the other guy does it, you have to; but if you both agree not to, you can have just as good racing at lower cost.

 

 

 

 

This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class.

 

 

Pretty much what I already said, just more colorful language.

 

It's a spending arm's race, unless the class agrees to control it. And frankly, generally, sailing as a sport has done poorly at standing up to the sail makers and helping the owners minimize the arms race (less well than other equipment sports). And the sail makers seem to be very short sighted, trying to sell more expensive sails today, while longer term driving owners out of the sport (or to boat downsizing).

 

That all said - great sailors with shitty sails will always beat poor sailors with fancy sails.

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I tend to look at it differently. As an experienced amateur with good sails I at least have a fair chance and can be close enough to learn what those cats up front are up to and maybe even steal a couple. Without decent rags you aren't even in the game. We enjoy the service and knowledge we get from the sailmaker in sail development and rig setup. How do you know that your #1 ap has to much draft? You dont till you build a flatter one and give it a go. You get what you pay for.

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There are big boat classes with sail limitations

 

The sail program for the J/44 class seems to have been pretty successful.

 

The Swan 42 was maybe not as successful, but i guess it helps.

 

The Melges 32 - I heard people are buying new boats when they think they need new sails.

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This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape.

 

Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.

 

Nice boat shame about the sails.

Good to know that spending is all there is to competitive sails in all conditions whether you're racing a 10-footer or a 100-footer, displacement or planing, one design or handicap, pro or club. And that you know more than Dave Ullman and some other sailors with known sailing resumes have won consistently with Dacron against more exotic sails in world class fleets. Thanks!

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This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape.

 

Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.

 

Nice boat shame about the sails.

Good to know that spending is all there is to competitive sails in all conditions whether you're racing a 10-footer or a 100-footer, displacement or planing, one design or handicap, pro or club. And that you know more than Dave Ullman and some other sailors with known sailing resumes have won consistently with Dacron against more exotic sails in world class fleets. Thanks!

I think you will find that Dave Ullman uses Dacron in classes that require its use. I also think you will find that after the regatta someone purchases those one regatta old sails like clockwork. You are welcome. Maybe you should look into making your own out of tyvec. I hear you can get a good deal on a whole roll.

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This one is pretty sweet as well. Bottom line is sail design and construction is always moving forward and to be competitive you need to keep up. In Dacron the shape is going to go south faster than other solutions and need to be replaced sooner. Period there is no free lunch in race sails other than trying to take as good of care of em as you can. I also believe that 3di or some other flexible composite once its developed more will will be the end all for cruisers as well and be the end of laminated sails as we know it.

 

t50cf1a.jpg

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This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape.

 

Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.

 

Nice boat shame about the sails.

 

Good to know that spending is all there is to competitive sails in all conditions whether you're racing a 10-footer or a 100-footer, displacement or planing, one design or handicap, pro or club. And that you know more than Dave Ullman and some other sailors with known sailing resumes have won consistently with Dacron against more exotic sails in world class fleets. Thanks!
I think you will find that Dave Ullman uses Dacron in classes that require its use. That's profound, seriously? I also think you will find that after the regatta someone purchases those one regatta old sails like clockwork. You are welcome. Maybe you should look into making your own out of tyvec. I hear you can get a good deal on a whole roll.

Other sailmakers build their Melges 24 mainsails out of laminate material, but the Ullman Sails Melges mainsail uses woven Dacron, which has proven to be fastest and easiest to use across the wind range.

http://www.ullmansailswestcoast.com/One_Design_Center/Melges_24_Sail_line_Up_%26_Pricing.html

You are welcome.

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This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape.

 

Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.

 

Nice boat shame about the sails.

Good to know that spending is all there is to competitive sails in all conditions whether you're racing a 10-footer or a 100-footer, displacement or planing, one design or handicap, pro or club. And that you know more than Dave Ullman and some other sailors with known sailing resumes have won consistently with Dacron against more exotic sails in world class fleets. Thanks!
I think you will find that Dave Ullman uses Dacron in classes that require its use. That's profound, seriously? I also think you will find that after the regatta someone purchases those one regatta old sails like clockwork. You are welcome. Maybe you should look into making your own out of tyvec. I hear you can get a good deal on a whole roll.

>Other sailmakers build their Melges 24 mainsails out of laminate material, but the Ullman Sails Melges mainsail uses woven Dacron, which has proven to be fastest and easiest to use across the wind range.

http://www.ullmansailswestcoast.com/One_Design_Center/Melges_24_Sail_line_Up_%26_Pricing.html

You are welcome.

 

And are replaced more often. You just are looking for anything you can cling to justify buying a Dacron sail. Go for it and as that draft creeps aft and gets deeper every year much the same as your position in the fleet just keep telling yourself you saved money.

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