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Raz'r

Flying Phantom

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So - I think I want one.

Is it big enough to handle SF Bay chop - or is this a flat water machine?

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Here's the video linked on the Phantom International facebook page:

Looks very stable and fast....

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So - I think I want one.

 

Is it big enough to handle SF Bay chop - or is this a flat water machine?

 

Just what I was thinking! Perhaps something a little bigger needed for those 25kt days with a good ebb running. But if any of the brokers get one for demos, I'm up for a test sail.

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So is that the quickest AC break-through tec. to every day boats EVER!

 

That boat has been in development for years.

The foils have changed some from alinghi 5 style to newer AC style boards but closer to the Little AC Groupama boat.

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Come on rich! Add to your inventory!

I like the F18 and have a nice boat I really like. I will however sell her to you for a nice price and get another one. Come out one day and play with the F18 fleet at Redwood City. We sail most Wednesday nights and try for one day each weekend.

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So - I think I want one.

 

Is it big enough to handle SF Bay chop - or is this a flat water machine?

 

Does look fun, but did you catch developer Alex Udin's remark in the interview with Clean on the front page?

 

 

Udin is making a point about stability versus size in reference to the AC72s. Clean says the Flying Phantom would be doing cartwheels if it was in SF Bay chop. Udin, says, "Of course, of course..."

 

That said, it wouldn't stop me from trying one here given the chance.

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That video is quite selective in its editing

If they could go out and foil in any conditions - wouldn't they have waited for the sun to come out?

I think that this is a tricky beast and would need to be taken on without too much expectation.

 

That said, I wonder how long the round Texel record is going to stand?

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Problems....

 

This boat is not using the same foils as the AC boats, so trickle development is not a connective tissue here unless you are referring to trickle-up. Martin Fischer developed the foils in a separate world many months before the AC thing got rolling.

 

Boat has been spread to just under 10' beam, due to lost righting moment with the foils, making for a much more complex trailer setup that is definitely not going to be for everyone who might be interested.

 

Bottom line, ultimately, will be the out the door cost to get it landed and whether, or not, you have sufficient wind on a regular enough basis to make it a consistent activity.

 

There will probably be a surge of interest, initially, and then it will die off as a novelty with relatively few dedicated practitioners. With few boats out there, where will you race that doesn't cost you major additional dollars for travel and time away from the job?

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Come on rich! Add to your inventory!

I like the F18 and have a nice boat I really like. I will however sell her to you for a nice price and get another one. Come out one day and play with the F18 fleet at Redwood City. We sail most Wednesday nights and try for one day each weekend.

 

I will do that. I keep my wetsuit and harness in the trunk these days (training kiddies at RYC, you never know when a skiff or canoe is available at lunch) - ping me when I should show up.

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I have tried multiple times to get out on F-18 on the Bay to no luck. Was interested in getting one but got the impression the fleet was not that committed. Never a response from anyone. Do you guys ever get out on the actual bay or just south bay? I would be interested in coming down for a ride.

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According to Fischer, the boat was tested with two sets of foils-one not designed by him showed the greatest foiling performance. The final set of foils is definitely a derivation of the original TNZ system refined for this boat. Also, the 3 foil configuration( single main foil with two rudder foils) pioneered by TNZ is being used on the Phantom.

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I have tried multiple times to get out on F-18 on the Bay to no luck. Was interested in getting one but got the impression the fleet was not that committed. Never a response from anyone. Do you guys ever get out on the actual bay or just south bay? I would be interested in coming down for a ride.

 

Sent you a PM anytime you wanna sail just call My boat is ready to sail.

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It looks to be a boat that can only be used on light chop days.

I tried sailing the original Windrider RAVE in Buzzards Bay Chop with little luck. It was a Dog when it wasn't foiling, but you needed the big wind to get her up on the foils. With the wind came the chop! There was the rub!

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Franck showed what a pro can do with these foils in real-world conditions. I don't see racing this in short steep bay chop or big 10' swell offshore, both conditions F18's handle well. The flip side is this is the same or less than the F20c cost wise, and better built, and arguably more fun.

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You evidently have not sailed the Bay or the Bay area...if the rig can achieve say 5 foot height, fun but if you plan on the boat sailing in the chop, you will have a different experience, completely different. But, you pay your money and deal with it. I would not do it, but that is me.

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The boat may have a problem in SanFran Bay but in 90% of the sailing venues in Florida and 100% of them within 100 miles of Cocoa Beach it would be perfect most of the time. And I imagine thats true in many,many other locations......

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Is the consensus view that a small foiler can't be effective sailing SF Bay because of chop?

 

Seems to be the view, but I hope that's wrong. Johnny Heineken and the rest of the foilboarding gang don't seem to have much trouble foiling here. That's about as small a foiler as you can find. How about moth sailing in SF? Who's tried?

 

Looking at the Phantom teaser video again it seems that if you could keep the bows moderately pitched up and the foils deep you could survive some wind and chop. Thoughts?

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I would wait and see for the 2 boats rumored to be coming out here, get a ride on those, check out the F18 and if it seems right, go for it.

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The F18 fleet just hit 20 boats for the Bay Area when Phillip Meredith sold his Wildcat to 2 Stanford sailing team members and bought himself a new Infusion. Check www.sff18.org for fleet info. Punchline is that they go out every Wednesday in Redwood City and welcome newcomers and first timers. Just bring a wetsuit or dry suit, they have the other gear covered. Schedule isn't set for 2014 yet but I won't be too far off with this outline:

March: Spring Dingy, StFYC

April: Big Dinghy, RYC

May: Elvstrom-Zellerbach, StFYC

June: Delta Ditch Run, RYC/ Stockton Sailing Club

June: Commodore's on Lake Huntington, Fresno YC

July: TBD, SFYC

Sept: Richmond Multihull, RYC

 

The Artemis team has a few F18s that may work their way into circulation so it could grow a little more from here but I suspect 15-25 is the steady state w/ 8-12 showing for individual regattas. Come to the planning meeting in January and meet the Bay Area teams.

I have tried multiple times to get out on F-18 on the Bay to no luck. Was interested in getting one but got the impression the fleet was not that committed. Never a response from anyone. Do you guys ever get out on the actual bay or just south bay? I would be interested in coming down for a ride.

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I have tried multiple times to get out on F-18 on the Bay to no luck. Was interested in getting one but got the impression the fleet was not that committed. Never a response from anyone. Do you guys ever get out on the actual bay or just south bay? I would be interested in coming down for a ride.

 

Sent you a PM anytime you wanna sail just call My boat is ready to sail.

Sorry you are having trouble getting a ride on an F18. If you get to So Cal my boat is at ABYC and pretty easy to take sailing (after the docks are done, darnit). If you are here near Springtime I would be happy to get you out around our harbor for a sail. Weekdays are easier but may be able to do a Weekend (which are usually practice time). Most of the F18s in your area are in the Southbay so there is little reason for them to need to sail off the City front. I know they go out sailing a lot though, so make your way to that area...great group.

 

Later,

Dan

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Wow! That price isn't exactly small change for a 2 man, 18' cat. I make that US$44,000 and AU$48,000 before shipping and local taxes (maybe there are euro taxes to take off). All told, that's well north of US$45,000 and AU$50,000 landed (based on bringing A's into Oz, I would guess at AU$53-55K). Isn't that basically double the cost of an F18? Fantastic boat, but is that price realistic?

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Basically. Pick your flavor, a new F-18 is $24K. Phantom F-18 is closer to $28K. Phantom also lacks distribution, support in English may be somewhat challenging, 0 fleet size etc. It looks like a sweet ride but good luck.

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I would never have expected the fastest cat under 20' to be in the same price range as lesser boats. You want speed and the ultimate in sailing excitement you'll pay for it. I hope they sell a bunch of them!

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At this price and with a beam of 3m, it's not really suitable for club racing.

 

I can image this boat requiring a fair bit of maintenance after some high speed crashes. Plus the crew need to wear crash helmets.

 

It looks like a training boat for AC teams. Maybe they can get a series going with sponsored teams as well.

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Beach Cattish form at 44 Large and the need for a tilt trailer..?

 

 

Can anyone say... D O A ?

 

 

Suddenly, the price and the fiddle factor for the Multi 23 looks like entirely affordable....

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Doug

 

You sure do change your tune, which is why some people find it so hard to take you seriously. All of these quotes are from you, about the Phantom


I'd say the 40+ grand is simply bullshit for a foiling cat. When manufacturers get involved the price will be just a little over the price of a similar cat w/o the lifting foils

 


I think it is totally wrong that this has to be a "50,000" toy-I think that is ridiculous.

 

Sure puts the capital BS to the $40,000 price mentioned earlier.

So, the real facts are that the price has come out at almost exactly what myself and a few others said it had to be, and which Doug went into full on attack mode about.

 

The other thing we need to consider is whether the boat is really worth the money. On performance alone, it's hard to say. We know they claim it is faster than an F18, but then again, if you build an F18 30kgs lighter, make it wider, give it a taller mast and more sail area, it had better be significantly faster than a standard F18 even without foils. We have no idea what contribution the foils are making and I don't suspect the will be building a non foiling version in order to check it out.

 

So what you are really paying the money for is the "flying", because if all you wanted was the extra performance, you could buy something else for that money and achieve it. My guess is that this is a very niche market and that the clear impracticalities and cost will scare most off. Shame, because it's a nice idea.

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I think you need to understand that the price in the video was inc tax, the boat is 26,500 Euro plus tax. So its about 1500 euro more than a Nacra F20. and its a hell of a lot quicker. Built to a very high standard and its clear that some of the smartest people in the business have had a lot of input in the boat and its systems.

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Is it de rigeur that cat sailors have to be "catty?"

 

The multi-hull forum seems somewhat "less tolerant" than, say, the dinghy side of the course.

 

Rhetorical, no need to respond!

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Macca

Please note that nowhere did I say it wasn't priced fairly, because it has come out at about the level a number of us on here predicted. The comparison with the F20 is interesting and I suspect that much of the price difference is in the foils, after taking into account the difference in size of the 2 boats. The issue isn't that it is unfairly prices, but that I simply am not convinced that there are very many people around who want to pay that much for a 2 man 18' cat, irrespective of speed. And as I said before, I hope for the sake of those involved that I am wrong.

 

Maybe when we see people getting out there and sailing (not the mega star tester/developers) we will get to understand its real potential and demand.

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I wasn't having a go at you Simon, just making the point that when you compare it to similar sized/type products its well priced. Also, the Nacra F20 sold more than 100 units worldwide so it was a success to a certain point (ROI was achieved after boat 25 if I remember correctly)

 

The pre orders for the flying phantom are much higher than I saw with the Nacra project so I am pretty sure it will be a success.

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So, let's play a little game here, Macca and create a hypothetical foil freak in oh.... let's just say Mobile, Alabama. Said freak is out on his first day, tooling along at breath taking speed and runs the damn thing right across a big old log that just washed out of the nearest river in one of their very frequent, torrential downpours and our freak drives over it with his foils deployed.

 

Gone, completely, is the complex control system, the foil itself, probably the rig, as well, because momentum is gonna send that thing into a nifty cartwheel. So, here's our freak, now, looking at the gaping hole in the hull and the carnage of the rig. He's faced with a glorious repair bill and now he has to find someone qualified to repair the boat and it's control system, get it tuned correctly when they've never before seen such a setup, as well as source, pay for and have shipped, the tricked out, limited production rig.

 

My bet is that there's nobody anywhere near this guy's home that is qualified to rebuild the very specific controls and he'll have to ship the entire boat to a place that can effect the repair. (mucho dollars) And the best part.... he's going to have to pretty much buy a brand new boat when he gets the cost to ship all the parts, wait for the factory to produce the necessary items and then gets the bill from the place where the boat now sits for repair, because there isn't anyone around who can properly fix the bad boy.

 

Result...? A lovely new posting on eBay for a slightly used foiling cat and the freak has had his bank account totally drained.... and for what? And we wonder why sailing is on life support the world over.

 

Lots and lots of hype surrounding this beast and not one whiff of the reality, should the bubble burst in his lap. Couple that with the fact that the nearest matched competitor is probably a thousand miles away and you have the bitches brew of what's wrong with overly complicated, hyper-space prototypes that get put into "production".

 

My advice, just like it is for any exotic out there, be they cars, toasters, or boats.... don't buy the thing until you can afford to buy three of them, cause that's what it's gonna take to mount a proper campaign to keep it on the water.

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Doug

 

You sure do change your tune, which is why some people find it so hard to take you seriously. All of these quotes are from you, about the Phantom

 

I'd say the 40+ grand is simply bullshit for a foiling cat. When manufacturers get involved the price will be just a little over the price of a similar cat w/o the lifting foils

 

>

 

I think it is totally wrong that this has to be a "50,000" toy-I think that is ridiculous.

 

Sure puts the capital BS to the $40,000 price mentioned earlier.

So, the real facts are that the price has come out at almost exactly what myself and a few others said it had to be, and which Doug went into full on attack mode about.

 

The other thing we need to consider is whether the boat is really worth the money. On performance alone, it's hard to say. We know they claim it is faster than an F18, but then again, if you build an F18 30kgs lighter, make it wider, give it a taller mast and more sail area, it had better be significantly faster than a standard F18 even without foils. We have no idea what contribution the foils are making and I don't suspect the will be building a non foiling version in order to check it out.

 

So what you are really paying the money for is the "flying", because if all you wanted was the extra performance, you could buy something else for that money and achieve it. My guess is that this is a very niche market and that the clear impracticalities and cost will scare most off. Shame, because it's a nice idea.

 

Yeah, I was wrong about the price. But not about the boat-it's a spectacular first: first production full flying catamaran foiler, first example of "trickledown " from the 34th AC R &D on foil development, and the fastest cat under 20'. A milestone in small multies with more to come....

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Chris, as always you are a bundle of optimism and reality....

 

These boats are not just made for some muppet (like you) to play with on his shitty lake in bumfuck nowhere. They are high performance boats and need to treated as such. Pretty much like a Porsche GT3, its fun on the road but you will never see its potential until you put it in the right environment.

 

The example you just gave above is relevant to pretty much any catamaran, if you hit a log in your F18 at 20kts its going to break shit too, and the same materials are used in the boat so what the hell is different about fixing it??

 

If you had even the smallest idea of how the thing goes together you would know that, but its clear that you have your head firmly wedged up your own ass and couldn't tell a daggerboard from a rudder.

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Ohhh, I'm lovin' it. A personal attack for what is a legitimate, included understanding, for any developed product. When I see folks respond like this it tells me that they have a whole lot to hide and haven't, at all, been honest with a full assessment as it pertains to a production product. If you don't know what problems might befall your enterprise before engaging the start button, you are certainly in for a rough ride. The scenario I suggested is very much a reality issue for this kind of boat and it looks like you have no answer. Industry leader kind of thinking there, macca. Nice of you to show your colors.

"muppet(s) (like you) to play with on his shitty lake in bumfuck nowhere."

Thanks, macca, for the lovely quote about your high styling arrogance on the matter. You can count on seeing this quote as it pertains to you whenever you make an appearance on these pages. Live it down. The sailing community adores arrogance.

 

Take a good look at the numbers, Bubba. The sport is doing a death spiral and some of that reality is because of folks like you who get demonstrably defensive when real issues are pointed out to which you have no substantive answers. Classy mouthpiece for the industry, you are. Reminds me, a lot, of how Doug Lord thinks. Flail away at the imaginary ghost, while the real issues remain unanswered.

It doesn't take much in the way of brains to see the substantive difference in a daggerboard slot for an F18 and the gadgetry needed to make for all the foil adjustments, the seriously different complexity level needed to produce a lifting board over a straight board and the costs associated with same. A guy who does routine fiberglass repair is not going to be able to realign all the parts needed for a destroyed daggerboard and trunk assembly of the type seen on the Phantom.

Look at a map, macca. Mobile is not sitting on a lake. It's the Gulf of Mexico. Kinda tough to argue with a fool who can't even pick up an easily sourced map to verify something before shooting the mouth off.

"The example you just gave above is relevant to pretty much any catamaran, if you hit a log in your F18 at 20kts its going to break shit too, and the same materials are used in the boat so what the hell is different about fixing it??" Are you suggesting that a GT3 can be easily repaired in a shop in any small town in the USA, for instance? I've got news for you. It can't.

This repair job, on the fictitious Phantom is not a simple, glass and epoxy glue-up job as you are suggesting. I tell you what, let an average, wrench spinner in small town America have at your GT3 to effect a repair and let's see how well it runs, how well it handles, how predictably it delivers that factory performance after it's been fixed by a guy with all the wrong tools, no diagnostics and no understanding of the complex nature of the precision instrument. That's the problem, macca. I would have thought that a guy with your background would have known that.

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Chris,

 

My local fiberglass guy would have no more trouble fixing a flying phantom or a normal F18. Putting the board in skewed in an f18 is not acceptable in the same way as it's not acceptable on a flying phantom or any other performance boat. If your guy can't do the job then you have the wrong guy or you are doing it yourself.....

 

You think the sport is in a death spiral, that tells me you are not a glass half full guy. More of a glass empty guy... The real world is much better than you believe. There is a considerable momentum towards high performance boats and thanks to the AC we are seeing it becoming more acceptable in the mainstream. This is the future of high performance, it's not going to decimate the optimist or laser fleets but it is the new aspirational part of the sport. Why do you fight it so hard? What could you possibly gain from discouraging development in a sport you claim to love? If nobody developed and progressed in our sport we would have probably end up with boats that I have seen you draw.... That would not be a good thing!

 

How about you shut the fuck up, let the forward thinking people in the world go about their business and you can sit back and when it all fails and we crawl back into the caves and float around in dugout logs you can sit on your little mountain and say that you saw it all coming.

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It will be interesting to see how these smaller foiling cats perform. The foiling AC72s were amazing with 30 knot upwind speeds and the foiling SL33s of ETNZ reportedly did over 40 knots downwind.

 

But I think it's fair to say that the foiling C class cats had some problems. It's not clear that you want to be trapezing off these boats as the crashes were frequent and spectacular. Plus the speeds were not really any better than the Moths.

 

I think the same issues will apply to the foiling Phantom - although it's much much cheaper than a C class cat. What happens when you crash off the foils at 30 knots downwind? If it wrecks bodies and boats then people will get turned off pretty quickly.

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Chris,

 

Just so you will know, probably the best qualified small performance technician in the country happens to have a shop right on the shores of Mobile Bay. Donny Brennan has served as the master boatwright for the US Olympic Sailing team the last couple of times and would as well equipped as anyone in the country to deal with your hypothetical scenario. Come to Mobile and see for yourself but I wouldn't suggest you go around addressing everyone as 'Bubba'!

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Diversified-Marine-Services-Inc/279913278716412

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Chris,

 

My local fiberglass guy would have no more trouble fixing a flying phantom or a normal F18. Putting the board in skewed in an f18 is not acceptable in the same way as it's not acceptable on a flying phantom or any other performance boat. If your guy can't do the job then you have the wrong guy or you are doing it yourself.....

 

You think the sport is in a death spiral, that tells me you are not a glass half full guy. More of a glass empty guy... The real world is much better than you believe. There is a considerable momentum towards high performance boats and thanks to the AC we are seeing it becoming more acceptable in the mainstream. This is the future of high performance, it's not going to decimate the optimist or laser fleets but it is the new aspirational part of the sport. Why do you fight it so hard? What could you possibly gain from discouraging development in a sport you claim to love? If nobody developed and progressed in our sport we would have probably end up with boats that I have seen you draw.... That would not be a good thing!

 

How about you shut the fuck up, let the forward thinking people in the world go about their business and you can sit back and when it all fails and we crawl back into the caves and float around in dugout logs you can sit on your little mountain and say that you saw it all coming.

 

Very well put, Macca-thanks!

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It didn't take long for this thread to devolve into the typical poop flinging monkey frenzy.

 

We get it Chris, we are dooming the sport to a death spiral... just by talking about boats that cost more than your car.

 

Why don't you go off and design the ultimate rotomolded sailing, paddling, camping, inflatable, raid lov'in trimaran - crowd source the thing and sell millions of them.

 

Like your Chris0 blog by the way!

 

 

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Chris,

 

Just so you will know, probably the best qualified small performance technician in the country happens to have a shop right on the shores of Mobile Bay. Donny Brennan has served as the master boatwright for the US Olympic Sailing team the last couple of times and would as well equipped as anyone in the country to deal with your hypothetical scenario. Come to Mobile and see for yourself but I wouldn't suggest you go around addressing everyone as 'Bubba'!

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Diversified-Marine-Services-Inc/279913278716412

 

Then pick another location. There's millions of them from which to draw. The point is and shall ever remain so. The boat is complex compared to a beach cat, it's gonna cost twice as much and the places where it can sail are limited by any of a number of specific reasons.

 

As to calling anyone Bubba... I'm not concerned as the term is as interchangeable as the euphemistic, Dude, as it used in the colloquial. I'm a photographer/cinema cameraman by profession, Rasputin. Over the years, I've done dozens of photo shoots in the South and have never had a problem in casual conversation using the term. I'm not all that concerned, but thanks for the heads-up in a friendly way. So, tell me... is macca right when he refers to the location as a shitty lake in bumfuck nowhere?

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My local fiberglass guy would have no more trouble fixing a flying phantom or a normal F18. Putting the board in skewed in an f18 is not acceptable in the same way as it's not acceptable on a flying phantom or any other performance boat. If your guy can't do the job then you have the wrong guy or you are doing it yourself.....

 

So you say, macca, but the fact remains that finding qualified talent for massive repair jobs is a problem for all recreational sports enthusiasts. Interesting that you stopped using the Porsche metaphor when you found it no longer worked properly.

 

 

 

You think the sport is in a death spiral, that tells me you are not a glass half full guy. More of a glass empty guy... The real world is much better than you believe. There is a considerable momentum towards high performance boats and thanks to the AC we are seeing it becoming more acceptable in the mainstream. This is the future of high performance, it's not going to decimate the optimist or laser fleets but it is the new aspirational part of the sport. Why do you fight it so hard? What could you possibly gain from discouraging development in a sport you claim to love? If nobody developed and progressed in our sport we would have probably end up with boats that I have seen you draw.... That would not be a good thing!

 

It's not only me who thinks that the sport is in a death spiral. It's supported by any number of statistical surveys that are taken annually with regards to the sport. Participant numbers have been declining steadily for more than ten years. This is supported by shrinking sales of new products, more and more empty slips at marinas and a reduction of such support services as chandleries. If you can't see that, then you aren't looking. I find that an amusing anecdote for a guy who is supposed to have an awareness of the marketplace. It would seem that there is no shortage of rose colored glasses in your hometown and that you are fully stocked like an obsessive compulsive nerd. Another thing you have in common with Doug Lord.

 

I'm seriously optimistic about products and services that take the sport to a place where it is grounded and stable with a real chance to grow, especially among young sailors. This boat does not fit that paradigm for any of a number of reasons. Half full, half empty is irrelevant if you are putting out nonsense in order to make yourself feel good. It's a comfy, homespun bit of music that helps the mentally challenged find some meaning in their hustle.

 

 

How about you shut the fuck up, let the forward thinking people in the world go about their business and you can sit back and when it all fails and we crawl back into the caves and float around in dugout logs you can sit on your little mountain and say that you saw it all coming.

 

 

 

 

How about you rise to the occasion and stop using ad hominem attacks because you are out of trite phrases to express yourself? Let the pragmatic thinkers arrange their decision-making process based on all the information rather than a glossy, candy coated display that has real issues. Show yourself to be a reasoned, grounded individual who shares the power points, as well as the shortcomings of a particular design and give the public some respect, rather than pimping rides based on ego, defensiveness and dream-scheming?

 

Any pimp can sell a whore. Show yourself to be more than a foaming at the mouth hype machine and do something that represents a real chance for sailing to succeed and not dwindle away to a mere speck on the horizon. It's headed in that direction... and has been for many, many years. Here's where you can start. Do a study of what happened to the windsurfing/sailboard industry. You can draw a direct and powerful line to sailing overall. Trouble is; while you were out there pimping your ass off, the sailing world was losing membership by the droves. What did you do in all your resplendent magnificence to halt the progression as we know it and contribute a lasting and meaningful contribution and not just a dot on someone's bar chart many years from now?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Chris,

 

We just don't care about your issues. There is a demand for products such as the flying phantom and as such people will build products to meet that demand. If you believe the world needs other products then by all means, go, design and build them. Make your millions and laugh at us idiots that build these stupid fast boats :)

 

Maybe you can save the sport from its "death spiral" but I have just been at the WYRF in Sweden and the mood there (from those involved in racing) was very positive as to the future and I can tell you that the topic of foiling was the most common theme in speeches and group discussions. The overwhelming consensus from the leaders in the game is that foiling will be the most interesting and popular area of high level sailing over the next years. Nobody thinks that it will penetrate to every class in the world, but foiling will gain in popularity and spread to more areas of sailing than before.

 

So, as I said before: how about you leave us alone to go and move forward and you can watch the world move on without you.

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Exactly...

 

Chris

 

You spend a lot of time talking about the sailing death spiral, I would think it be more enjoyable to spend your time sailing, or 3d printing polyethylene trimarans that you can paddle and sail and raid and camp and paddle and pedal and paddle.

 

If you spent half of the time that you do whining about foils on a crowd sourced raid paddle sailing project, you just might sell a couple of boats. I really hope you do find a modicum of success in the marine industry.. maybe you will quit being such a prick.

 

Love your work bubba..

 

Chris0designs.blogspot.com

 

 

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Basically. Pick your flavor, a new F-18 is $24K. Phantom F-18 is closer to $28K. Phantom also lacks distribution, support in English may be somewhat challenging, 0 fleet size etc. It looks like a sweet ride but good luck.

FYI, Alex the leader of the whole thing speaks damned good English, and at that price I'd imagine you would deserve plenty of support from him. If not, you just call me and I'll make sure he is on the next flight over.

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So, let's play a little game here, Macca and create a hypothetical foil freak in oh.... let's just say Mobile, Alabama. Said freak is out on his first day, tooling along at breath taking speed and runs the damn thing right across a big old log that just washed out of the nearest river in one of their very frequent, torrential downpours and our freak drives over it with his foils deployed.

 

Gone, completely, is the complex control system, the foil itself, probably the rig, as well, because momentum is gonna send that thing into a nifty cartwheel. So, here's our freak, now, looking at the gaping hole in the hull and the carnage of the rig. He's faced with a glorious repair bill and now he has to find someone qualified to repair the boat and it's control system, get it tuned correctly when they've never before seen such a setup, as well as source, pay for and have shipped, the tricked out, limited production rig.

 

My bet is that there's nobody anywhere near this guy's home that is qualified to rebuild the very specific controls and he'll have to ship the entire boat to a place that can effect the repair. (mucho dollars) And the best part.... he's going to have to pretty much buy a brand new boat when he gets the cost to ship all the parts, wait for the factory to produce the necessary items and then gets the bill from the place where the boat now sits for repair, because there isn't anyone around who can properly fix the bad boy.

 

Result...? A lovely new posting on eBay for a slightly used foiling cat and the freak has had his bank account totally drained.... and for what? And we wonder why sailing is on life support the world over.

 

Lots and lots of hype surrounding this beast and not one whiff of the reality, should the bubble burst in his lap. Couple that with the fact that the nearest matched competitor is probably a thousand miles away and you have the bitches brew of what's wrong with overly complicated, hyper-space prototypes that get put into "production".

 

My advice, just like it is for any exotic out there, be they cars, toasters, or boats.... don't buy the thing until you can afford to buy three of them, cause that's what it's gonna take to mount a proper campaign to keep it on the water.

 

You are a clever bastard but still one of the most negative motherfuckers I have ever read.

 

People have been saying just what you are saying forever. But the market has already made some decisions and I think we'll see a French fleet and probably a Swiss fleet of these things quite soon. And it will be sweet.

 

American sailing is quite handicapped. You know how Europe is a year or two behind on the latest music, drugs, and other pop stuff? It goes the other way for sailing. Give it time, and let's hope Phantom is ready to sell some volume on this side of the pond.

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Chris

 

You really don't have much of a clue about high performance sailing, do you. By way of example, your predictions of rig destruction following a pitchpole are simply wrong. The only high performance cats that would happen on is the C Class, because their wings are fragile. Anything else should and would survive.

 

Next, you go on about how somebody will get their boat repaired in the event of a 1 in a million event. I think you need to accept that if that very rare event should happen, then there is a possibility you might have to travel a few hours to find somebody to repair it. Now, if that was a regular occurrence, then we would have a problem, but in 35 years of sailing high performance boats, I have never had a crash that has resulted in the problems you outline.

 

Next, your data about sailing is dubious at best, non representative at worst. I suspect you are looking at data from the USA, maybe even regional data. Well, contrary to the belief of a few Americans, the sailing world doesn't revolve about the USA and the USA isn't typical of world sailing. For instance, only last week I was being told about the incredible growth in sailing happening down here in Oz. I believe the same is so in the UK. I have also been told that the downward spiral Europe, that most blame on the dire financial crisis that effected so many, has turned the corner. In fact, it seems to me that the only person who I know of who is totally "doom and gloom" (and that includes those in the USA) is you. Maybe its time for you to step away from all aspects of the sport, if it is having such a negative impact on your viewpoint. Or maybe, better still, step away from the computer and go sailing. It's a wonderful experience and might even make you more positive and enthusiastic about our sport.

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BTW, one small thought. Have you ever heard of insurance. I am not sure why the sailor you described would be so out of pocket. I hope he wasn't being so stupid as to be sailing without insurance. Of course, if everybody sailing on the Gulf of Mexico was hitting huge tree trunks every time they sailed, then maybe insurance might become harder to get, but thankfully, smashing boats to the level you suggest is still a very, very rare occurrence

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While I do enjoy Chris O's rapier wit and his repartee, which, I feel, is somewhat intentionally bating at times, the blunt often ad hominem responses notwithstanding, why is this forum so stormy? The Dinghy group it is not.

 

Chris knows his stuff as the rest of us do in varying degrees. No one is going to "win" or rule...

 

Back when GM was a good firm, the spirit that made it great and profitable was: "Make the other guy look good."

 

When that spirit decayed, the firm perished.

 

Pace.

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There have been some entrees at the bottom of the market of late, my money is on them.

 

Along with a shit ton of cash, the truly high performance boats require master's level skill. I'm not sure that's a good fit for plebian fleets.

 

If wishing would make it so, I'd wish for huge fleets of AC 45s.

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The negative take, as you suggest, is purposeful, Clean. I prefer to call it an objective take. It forces people to talk about the broad spectrum of issues present in order to take the conversation forward with openness and not some bobblehead string of nodding approvals from the technofiles. What's sad about this is that the bobbleheads will get their hard ons in a tizzy fit if even a tiny word of thought comes forth that doesn't fit their broken world view of how to fairly and equitably acknowledge that there are problems and they should be considered. That's impulse buying on a grand scale at $44K.

As a guy who has produced more than fifty introductory video tapes for new products over the years, I've been in on engineering discussions where the head design guys sat around and tore apart their own product with analysis and supported testing data. Fact is, without it, the product has no balanced benchmark against which it is measured. We can all list the various products that have come and gone in this sporting niche of ours.

When it comes to foilers in production we have the classic examples of the Rave and Trifoiler from which to draw when it comes to crew sailed foiling boats. So, by the ad hominem attacks generated in this direction, I'd have to conclude that this teensy little slice of the sailing community pretty much thinks that both boats were just peachy, fucking keen and that it was a huge mistake for Ketterman and Zimmerman to yank them out of the market before they got their, a-hem... legs under them. Never mind that they represented a slow bleed on corporate energy and just did not represent efficient, profit based marketing as a goal for the business overall.

Both boats were difficult to repair in the event of a harsh collision. Both boats were priced stratospherically compared to their beach boat brethren. Both required specific wind envelopes and very favorable sea states to be able to function optimally and the window for both was incredibly narrow. Issues, gentleman, issues. Just like the issues surrounding the Phantom, which are not being openly discussed. When it came to the previous foilers, for example, lots of folks were simply pissed-off when they really found out what their spendy little hotrod could and could not do and where it could be sailed effectively. I'm of the opinion that it is these kinds of honest discussions that are lacking from many introductions of new, wowee-zowee products and it's only after a heady, buyer's awareness period that they begin to emerge as real problems... yet the cash has already changed hands and lots of folks are starting to walk away with drained bank accounts and a bad taste in their mouths.

Alex Udin could do a lot for his cause if he sat down on the record and acknowledged the limitations and factual issues of the product at the very front end of the game. No surprises for consumers. Seriously limited bad attitudes that become ugly grumblings would be reduced greatly and the whole thing would be a lot more transparent. Not another flank attack on an industry that has been seriously struggling.

And for you, Simon. You'll have to pardon my obsessive desire to do research based on easily accessible data that is routinely produced by acknowledged professionals in their field. You can discover it yourself if you care to bother. It's all out there. What's even more surprising is your inclusion of hearsay, soft-as-hell, data from anecdotally contrived sources. Yes, Simon, the USA is the world's largest boating market. Yes, trends that evolve here are more than worthwhile as a subject of study on the topic... if you really want to know the health of the world of sailing. Oh, you can sell-through in any number of markets globally and have a reasonable product success when it comes to boats, but until you crack that big old egg represented by the US marketplace, it's going to be real tough sledding.

Insurance, Simon, is a great idea, initially and as long as one can get it affordably... if they can get it at all. How about you share with us as to just how much insurance for the Phantom will cost, where it will be available from underwriters and the alternatives for folks who are going to be shut-out of that possible answer? I mean, since you are suggesting it, how about some substance to accompany the claim? (if you'll pardon my pun)

macca, really... an ad hominem attack is what comes out of your grill when someone poses specific issue-oriented discussion to a forum where these issues should be discussed? What's next Bubba, mac? You gonna mount a global campaign to shout down all folks who don't jump into your narrow bandwidth thought process? That's one hell of a big job and should keep you busy from some time to come. I say welcome to macca, then... the dude wearing the Emperor's New Clothes in the boating world. Don't look too hard at him, though, because he's naked for all to see.

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hey, they changed the boards. Now they have a screw to move the tip fore and aft. Before they had a curved part at the top which would adjust span as the boards were lowered further down. Quite a departure from their previous system.

i wonder if the new system is to change from upwind mode to downwind, or if they micro adjust during the leg like Hydros.

i like that they took the business risk to build these boats. If there are already 100 carbon 20s then there is a market for this boat.

Worrying about what might happen is often a pretty low thought form.

Focus on a positive future just as the winning sailors see them selves winning before the race ever starts.

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Wow! That price isn't exactly small change for a 2 man, 18' cat. I make that US$44,000 and AU$48,000 before shipping and local taxes (maybe there are euro taxes to take off). All told, that's well north of US$45,000 and AU$50,000 landed (based on bringing A's into Oz, I would guess at AU$53-55K). Isn't that basically double the cost of an F18? Fantastic boat, but is that price realistic?

1). VAT is not paid if for export and 2). add on about $6000 for shipping plus local sales taxes as well as import duties of approximately $1000

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I, poor, dim, fduck that I am, will be smiling a lot, cruising on my proa/outrigger that I have $3K invested in, keeping up with this rigs in the Bay, when I drive out for the ocean/Bay scene next summer. Why? Cause I will have more than me and wind aboard, much more but no crash covers allowed.

 

Now, back to the area, can someone advise why so few of these cats like the ones noted above and tris do not sport splash rails? McAlpine-Downey's boats were the best (and maybe remain so) and all had splash rails...? Money?

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ChrisO

 

Typical US centric view of the world. Your view that sailing is on the decline worldwide because it is in decline in the USA is rubbish. If the whole US boating scene disappeared, it would have zero effect on sailing in the rest of the world. In fact, nobody outside of the USA cares very much or even pays any attention to the state of the boating scene in the USA. We are seeing booms in other markets, all without the "help" of the USA and a class certainly isn't going to succeed or fail because of how it does there.

 

While you might argue that the market is big because of population, how big is it by participants? For instance, seeing we are talking about small cats, how big is that market? How many people race small cats in the USA? I bet it's not that many.

 

Finally, on the matter of insurance, are you really telling me that somebody with a $40,000 boat doesn't insure it? In every country I have ever raced in, insurance is compulsory. Are you telling me that is different in the USA? IMO, only an idiot would sail a boat like the foiling Phantom without insurance, even in training. Maybe things are different in the USA from everywhere else.

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Haha - on my screen it looks like you guys are arguing with a shadow. I've had Chris O on ignore for a long time.

 

There are many posters on these forums who have different views to mine, but Chris O is the only one I have on ignore. You guys should try it!

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Haha - on my screen it looks like you guys are arguing with a shadow. I've had Chris O on ignore for a long time.

 

There are many posters on these forums who have different views to mine, but Chris O is the only one I have on ignore. You guys should try it!

+1

Reading the posts between the gaps confirms the wisdom of this feature

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ChrisO

 

Typical US centric view of the world. Your view that sailing is on the decline worldwide because it is in decline in the USA is rubbish. If the whole US boating scene disappeared, it would have zero effect on sailing in the rest of the world. In fact, nobody outside of the USA cares very much or even pays any attention to the state of the boating scene in the USA. We are seeing booms in other markets, all without the "help" of the USA and a class certainly isn't going to succeed or fail because of how it does there.

 

Simon please tell me where you see 'booms' right now. The only international boom I have seen in a long time is the J/70. There are some good, sustainably growing classes in Europe (like the SeaScape from the front page) but booms? Very interested.

 

Second, I'll take issue with "nobody outside of the USA pays any attention to..." sailing in the USA. Not true, according to Google Analytics, which says that our stories on US events have roughly the same worldwide pickup as Euro or Aus events.

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Ryan Breymaier spent some time with the Phantom in Paris, and he wrote a first look/review that we'll be posting tomorrow.

 

Alex Udin is a regular SA'er, so post up any specific questions you have about the boat and he'll be along.

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Haha - on my screen it looks like you guys are arguing with a shadow. I've had Chris O on ignore for a long time.

 

There are many posters on these forums who have different views to mine, but Chris O is the only one I have on ignore. You guys should try it!

 

You are depriving yourself of great fun...Chris O's wit is honed, yet off hand and while he may seem personal at times, his retorts can be quite entertained, and sobering, indeed.

 

I live in a glass house...

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ChrisO

 

Typical US centric view of the world. Your view that sailing is on the decline worldwide because it is in decline in the USA is rubbish. If the whole US boating scene disappeared, it would have zero effect on sailing in the rest of the world. In fact, nobody outside of the USA cares very much or even pays any attention to the state of the boating scene in the USA. We are seeing booms in other markets, all without the "help" of the USA and a class certainly isn't going to succeed or fail because of how it does there.

 

Simon please tell me where you see 'booms' right now. The only international boom I have seen in a long time is the J/70. There are some good, sustainably growing classes in Europe (like the SeaScape from the front page) but booms? Very interested.

 

Second I'll take issue with "nobody outside of the USA pays any attention to..." sailing in the USA. Not true, according to Google Analytics, which says that our stories on US events have roughly the same worldwide pickup as Euro or Aus events.

 

Clean, First. let me say I think your getting involved in some forums is very "kewl." To take time out from hooch and hind is commendable.

 

Second. Of all people herein, you should know of "booms" in the business of sailing...

 

Too me, it is like making meatloaf or chili...everyone thinks their "doctoring is best." Only natural. Like fast cars, tweaking comes with the urge. But, by the same token, dilution hurts and also thins the lead, IMHO, and why no real booms.

 

As the advertisers know, timing and perception are everything...AC, foils, winnowing designs, boom, maybe, if practical and not outrageously expensive, which is another can of worms...

 

Last or third. Chris O et al are Anarchists, as I and all, so I let live and love it all to distraction, and learn; none of us has a monopoly on these matters, while many of us have a share of not having such a monopoly, meaning we can learn from everyone if we are not so arrogant...no reference to anyone here.

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Last or third. Chris O et al are Anarchists, as I and all, so I let live and love it all to distraction, and learn; none of us has a monopoly on these matters, while many of us have a share of not having such a monopoly, meaning we can learn from everyone if we are not so arrogant...no reference to anyone here.

 

+1

 

this is one of the most entertaining, and interesting, threads in MA

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I don't have a dog in the fight. But I wonder where the resale market will be for boats of this class?

 

Random thoughts:

 

* People like me don't have enough skill so why would I buy one?

* Why would someone with the skill buy used?

* How will the class finance itself?

 

Cool boat but in the end I think boats like the H16 will always be around, others will come and go.

 

I can see me doing this, it looks like fun. The Phantom, otoh, looks like elite sailors with their hands full, hats off to them.

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1487282_10152039029668726_651083899_n.jpg

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Well, as we have noted in different ways, each has his or her own...proofed.

 

And, Tikipete asks some pertinent questions...the market rules, as does diminishing utility...and why I decided to build my own rig and avoid the market altogether...proa/outrigger. Seriously.

 

And, so it is clear, I do not believe my exit port-hole is much different than anyone else's port-hole :/

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Can see a whole different intellectual disagreement developing over 'exit port-holes' BobBill.......Are NA 'exit port-holes' a more important indicator than European? Which smell worse? Google ANALytics take on it?

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Can see a whole different intellectual disagreement developing over 'exit port-holes' BobBill.......Are NA 'exit port-holes' a more important indicator than European? Which smell worse? Google ANALytics take on it.......

 

Now, let us not get "picky!" I think we all stink amicably...one hull, two hulls or three...

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Can see a whole different intellectual disagreement developing over 'exit port-holes' BobBill.......Are NA 'exit port-holes' a more important indicator than European? Which smell worse? Google ANALytics take on it.......

 

Now, let us not get "picky!" I think we all stink amicably...one hull, two hulls or three...

You have 2 or 3 holes?....sorry, misread your post.....

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Can see a whole different intellectual disagreement developing over 'exit port-holes' BobBill.......Are NA 'exit port-holes' a more important indicator than European? Which smell worse? Google ANALytics take on it.......

 

Now, let us not get "picky!" I think we all stink amicably...one hull, two hulls or three...

You have 2 or 3 holes?....sorry, misread your post.....

 

Made my day...very good...now itys off to quaff a pint or 10 and talk smart at pub in town...good on ya.

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Can see a whole different intellectual disagreement developing over 'exit port-holes' BobBill.......Are NA 'exit port-holes' a more important indicator than European? Which smell worse? Google ANALytics take on it.......

 

Now, let us not get "picky!" I think we all stink amicably...one hull, two hulls or three...

You have 2 or 3 holes?....sorry, misread your post.....

 

Made my day...very good...now itys off to quaff a pint or 10 and talk smart at pub in town...good on ya.

Good to meet you BobBill.....good to know there are others out there who feel humour belongs in sailing......am already 5 pints ahead of you though.....its that Europe v NA thing again.....just saying.....

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I think the phantom class has huge potential. I see it evolving into a grand prix class, that attracts the worlds top sailors. I was in the UK, and saw the extreme 40s race.. It was sweet! The flying phantom could easily become a class that is actually fun to watch. Let amateurs who can afford them get stomped by the pros, maybe the team is the owner plus a pro..

 

Hopefully phantom will rip a few pages from the extreme 40 and Melges marketing handbooks and build something awesome!

 

Some monohull sailors exibit the same repulsion to multis as Chris O's Foil prattle. Who cares. What I don't get is the amount of time he spends "fighting the scourge" online... it's like his own personal holy war... best way to deal with it is the ignore function.

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They should use the Flying Phantom for the AC World Series. For the price of one AC 45 they could have a whole fleet of these and they look like a much more exciting boat. And the logistics of this type of boat would make the series much more financially feasible. Each team could field at least three of these things.

 

As far as this boat's broader appeal, I think it may be somewhat limited, but it would be great to see a pro series of some kind in this class. I think the typical club sailor looking for a solid performance boat is better off with an F18 as the trade-offs related to full foiling don't add up for most of us. That said, this appears to be a well thought-out boat. It will be interesting to see if it can beat the Nacra F20 Carbon at Texel.

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Just back from the show in Paris and had spent 3h under, beneath and over the boat. You can see the build quality and the professional Engineering spent on all the little details that failed from day one from "race ready out of the box" type of F18s. Take a cloth look at the CNC-rudder-housing, cunningham, beam seating, beam extrusion and dimensions, daggerboard construction etc.

Compared to my F20c even a novice will see the difference.

The reason to buy it is a pure emotional thing. Resale value does not count, there is just one life to live and it's always too short.

I never had a new car instead.

have fun talking around, i will enjoy the ride

cheers from germany

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Can see a whole different intellectual disagreement developing over 'exit port-holes' BobBill.......Are NA 'exit port-holes' a more important indicator than European? Which smell worse? Google ANALytics take on it.......

 

Now, let us not get "picky!" I think we all stink amicably...one hull, two hulls or three...

You have 2 or 3 holes?....sorry, misread your post.....

 

Made my day...very good...now itys off to quaff a pint or 10 and talk smart at pub in town...good on ya.

Good to meet you BobBill.....good to know there are others out there who feel humour belongs in sailing......am already 5 pints ahead of you though.....its that Europe v NA thing again.....just saying.....

With ya...geez, you guys behind that far or that much early...if you don't start in the morning, how ya gonna drink all day?

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Aye-Aye! Clean, save it can be, for some O us swabs, "a second home"...so to speak?

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Last or third. Chris O et al are Anarchists, as I and all, so I let live and love it all to distraction, and learn; none of us has a monopoly on these matters, while many of us have a share of not having such a monopoly, meaning we can learn from everyone if we are not so arrogant...no reference to anyone here.

 

+1

 

this is one of the most entertaining, and interesting, threads in MA

 

+2

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Having read all the recent posts in this thread I think we all have to remember that opinions are like assholes, we all have one and they all smell apart from our own.......

+1

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