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Raz'r

Flying Phantom

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At the rate that foiling technology and systems have developed in the Moth class in the last 5 years, and with the rate at which clever people continue to make things better and faster, I suspect that whatever one design foiler is marketed in 2014 will look like a slow old dinosaur in only a few years.

 

That applies to any one design, be it a much proposed mythical OD moth spin offs, or the few proposed cats. Especially to all the cats because the existing foil systems they use are really so primitive, being based on silly and irrelevant AC rule intended to make foiling impossible.

 

Once foiling, anything on the boat which is not working as a sail or a foil is simply drag and dead weight, both of which are negative to performance. Moths happened to start with the minimum of everything so became good foilers by accident, anyone starting with anything substantially bigger or heavier will only make an inferior foiler. This has proven correct in all cases so far except at AC72 size, but maybe $M100 x 4 teams had something to do with that.

 

Anyone expecting to sail a small cat on foils in even moderate waves is going to be surprised and most likely hurt. Moths start to have control issues when the wave height, crest to peak, gets to about 0.75m. Thats when the hull starts to hit the surface and/or the foil starts to break out in the troughs. I mean short chop not big ruling swells, which are easier to sail up and over. The same will apply to the small cats, depending on the foil length. Its not the length of the boat which will matter but the depth of the foils. To some extent having three or foils in different waves may just make it more of a problem. The AC was raced in very protected water for 72ft boats, but their equivelant dimension would be more like 2.5m and the waves were never that big, even if they were big by the standards of smaller boats.

 

Obviously the next AC will be on foils, and moths will continue to develop. Because they have had such a head start moths will remain ahead of anything else in between which might be offered to the general market for a long time to come. They really are good value per knot if not per kilogram.

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Phil S +1. His inferences mime history in many areas.

 

And, while foiling will remain the thrust of Ellison's defense, I daresay foiling's novelty will wear thin, particularly if is does not offer the alternative respite sailing offers, as other here have suggested. In fact, I will even suggest that as cutting edge as it is, its very cutting edge-ness will hasten diminished returns and quiet the sport as being untouchable by impoverished mortals, who will opt for the simple and pragmatic.

 

Of course, I could be mistaken.

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At the rate that foiling technology and systems have developed in the Moth class in the last 5 years, and with the rate at which clever people continue to make things better and faster, I suspect that whatever one design foiler is marketed in 2014 will look like a slow old dinosaur in only a few years.

 

That applies to any one design, be it a much proposed mythical OD moth spin offs, or the few proposed cats. Especially to all the cats because the existing foil systems they use are really so primitive, being based on silly and irrelevant AC rule intended to make foiling impossible.

 

Once foiling, anything on the boat which is not working as a sail or a foil is simply drag and dead weight, both of which are negative to performance. Moths happened to start with the minimum of everything so became good foilers by accident, anyone starting with anything substantially bigger or heavier will only make an inferior foiler. This has proven correct in all cases so far except at AC72 size, but maybe $M100 x 4 teams had something to do with that.

 

Anyone expecting to sail a small cat on foils in even moderate waves is going to be surprised and most likely hurt. Moths start to have control issues when the wave height, crest to peak, gets to about 0.75m. Thats when the hull starts to hit the surface and/or the foil starts to break out in the troughs. I mean short chop not big ruling swells, which are easier to sail up and over. The same will apply to the small cats, depending on the foil length. Its not the length of the boat which will matter but the depth of the foils. To some extent having three or foils in different waves may just make it more of a problem. The AC was raced in very protected water for 72ft boats, but their equivelant dimension would be more like 2.5m and the waves were never that big, even if they were big by the standards of smaller boats.

 

Obviously the next AC will be on foils, and moths will continue to develop. Because they have had such a head start moths will remain ahead of anything else in between which might be offered to the general market for a long time to come. They really are good value per knot if not per kilogram.

I agree with everything you say, but in 2014 not all catamarans will be launched in the market on 3 foil AC style, I'm working on a prototype 14-foot cat foiling Moth style and always test this with wave 30 to 80 cm, I had some problem at the beginning but now it looks good.

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Going to watch all the Rube (Goldberg) contraptions emerge, submerge and sail right by them on my plain, ordinary and common proa/outrigger, with beer in hand.

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For the doubters out there: 13 Fly Phantoms were sold during the Paris show (signed contracts at the show)

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Macca, we still have a phrase for that...riding the buzz...reality is not quite the same, but, as I said, I could be mistaken, and history could change.

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For the doubters out there: 13 Fly Phantoms were sold during the Paris show (signed contracts at the show)

 

Thanks, Macca-thats encouraging!

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I don't think the FP is too hard for all but a few, but its the tradeoff between those who can afford $45k for a boat (not something most 20 and 30yos can) and those who've got the fitness and skill to sail that. A friend of mine bought a Musto - and 3 years later he still hasn't really got the hang of it. He's a very good keelboat sailor, and he's decently fit, but at 50+ he's just struggling to learn the skills. Of course its doable, but a lot harder as folks get older. And so you have the same paradox you have in motor cars - the folks who can afford the really high performance cars, IN GENERAL lack the skills to drive them competitively

Can't agree with this, the point of having a catamaran foiler is that, unlike a moth or a skiff, when you sheet out you can relax, you can take time to tack and gybe, you can hove to to get your breath back, then sheet in and fly when you are ready. Much easier, much more usable, and so (for me) worth more.

 

And my wife drives a Porsche with Porsche Cup suspension. Yes it's hard, but turns every corner into a pleasure. As Stampede says, life is short, make every moment as enjoyable as possible, so drive the car you want, sail the boat you want, and if you want to cruise conservatively through life, that's fine, but stay out of the way of the rest of us.

 

Excellent point! And you don't have to wade the Flying Phantom out on its side(like a Moth) and can sail off a beach(non-surf,for sure). You can share the thrill of foiling with a friend which is worth a lot to some people. And from what I understand, crashes won't be as much a part of the program as in a Moth.

As far as I'm concerned both are great boats and I'm watching Michelles development with his small foiling cat-exciting development!

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At the rate that foiling technology and systems have developed in the Moth class in the last 5 years, and with the rate at which clever people continue to make things better and faster, I suspect that whatever one design foiler is marketed in 2014 will look like a slow old dinosaur in only a few years.

 

That applies to any one design, be it a much proposed mythical OD moth spin offs, or the few proposed cats. Especially to all the cats because the existing foil systems they use are really so primitive, being based on silly and irrelevant AC rule intended to make foiling impossible.

 

Once foiling, anything on the boat which is not working as a sail or a foil is simply drag and dead weight, both of which are negative to performance. Moths happened to start with the minimum of everything so became good foilers by accident, anyone starting with anything substantially bigger or heavier will only make an inferior foiler. This has proven correct in all cases so far except at AC72 size, but maybe $M100 x 4 teams had something to do with that.

 

Anyone expecting to sail a small cat on foils in even moderate waves is going to be surprised and most likely hurt. Moths start to have control issues when the wave height, crest to peak, gets to about 0.75m. Thats when the hull starts to hit the surface and/or the foil starts to break out in the troughs. I mean short chop not big ruling swells, which are easier to sail up and over. The same will apply to the small cats, depending on the foil length. Its not the length of the boat which will matter but the depth of the foils. To some extent having three or foils in different waves may just make it more of a problem. The AC was raced in very protected water for 72ft boats, but their equivelant dimension would be more like 2.5m and the waves were never that big, even if they were big by the standards of smaller boats.

 

Obviously the next AC will be on foils, and moths will continue to develop. Because they have had such a head start moths will remain ahead of anything else in between which might be offered to the general market for a long time to come. They really are good value per knot if not per kilogram.

 

I don't disagree. Actually, that's how things tend to work. Today's grand prix boat becomes tomorrow's PHRF racer. Some classes endure; Lightnings, Hobie 16s, J24s, FC8s.... and the FP has the honor of being the first foiling one design boat.

 

If technology passes the design by, the price will drop in the used market, which is good!

 

My point is - that if done correctly - the FP could be the focal point of an exciting, spectator friendly, grand prix one design class; which hasn't been seen in sailing... basically ever.

 

Internet video of the races, faster then the extreme 40s, more exciting due to the speed, the foiling, and the number of boats competing. I do believe the world's best sailors will be attracted to such an event, and given how spectacular the AC35 video was, I can't believe people don't see the potential here. Seriously.

 

Think of a class that is run like a grand prix melges class, with the added press coverage seen with the extreme 40 class and the 35th AC. Given the cash behind the AC, perhaps the coverage wouldn't be at that level, but then again team Oracle could afford a couple of phantoms, along with groupma, artamis, alingi, team NZ, Some of the C class guys, A class guys, the olympic cat sailors,

and some other big names racing with amateur owners.

 

It has the potential of being an incredible focal point in high performance sailing. Even if the class is short lived in terms cutting edge technology, 3 to 5 years of FP grand prix sailing could be an incredible boost in the sport.

 

Think about it... getting up and working out 6 days a week to get into shape, watching your diet, practicing 2 to 10 hours a day, hiring a guy like randy smyth or rick white to sail with you... and going up against alingi in a one design fleet??

 

This is an incredible opportunity for our sport, and I really hope we as sailors take advantage of it.

 

The AC72 races are the only sailing event that I have watched over and over and over. Actually, it's the only sporting event I've watched more than once... ever... I love sailing, but every time I have had the chance to get my football, nascar buddies to watch sailing the excitement quickly faded after 30 seconds. That wouldn't happen with a flying phantom fleet. Imagine all of the port starboard crossings, the cartwheels due to bigger waves - just the shear speed of the boats will make the event incredible. Venues will hopefully be chosen carefully, in order to optimize the performance of the boat. But I see this as a big step in the sport if done correctly.

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For the doubters out there: 13 Fly Phantoms were sold during the Paris show (signed contracts at the show)

So what is critical mass? How many boats do you need to make a successful class and what constitutes success? Inquiring minds and all that...

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Tiki, good question, the Lightning Class is successful and passed critical mass long ago, but not an economically feasible prop now, perhaps...and so on. Maybe there are two critical masses or more...and why I went with building my own outrigger...independent dodger that I am.

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Full foiling production F20 carbon announced today by Nacra available early 2014 as well as Nacra F16 with daggerboard cases that except curved and straight foils..,..,

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I don't think the FP is too hard for all but a few, but its the tradeoff between those who can afford $45k for a boat (not something most 20 and 30yos can) and those who've got the fitness and skill to sail that. A friend of mine bought a Musto - and 3 years later he still hasn't really got the hang of it. He's a very good keelboat sailor, and he's decently fit, but at 50+ he's just struggling to learn the skills. Of course its doable, but a lot harder as folks get older. And so you have the same paradox you have in motor cars - the folks who can afford the really high performance cars, IN GENERAL lack the skills to drive them competitively

Can't agree with this, the point of having a catamaran foiler is that, unlike a moth or a skiff, when you sheet out you can relax, you can take time to tack and gybe, you can hove to to get your breath back, then sheet in and fly when you are ready. Much easier, much more usable, and so (for me) worth more.

 

And my wife drives a Porsche with Porsche Cup suspension. Yes it's hard, but turns every corner into a pleasure. As Stampede says, life is short, make every moment as enjoyable as possible, so drive the car you want, sail the boat you want, and if you want to cruise conservatively through life, that's fine, but stay out of the way of the rest of us.

 

Excellent point! And you don't have to wade the Flying Phantom out on its side(like a Moth) and can sail off a beach(non-surf,for sure). You can share the thrill of foiling with a friend which is worth a lot to some people. And from what I understand, crashes won't be as much a part of the program as in a Moth.

As far as I'm concerned both are great boats and I'm watching Michelles development with his small foiling cat-exciting development!

You are clearly an idiot Doug. You have to launch the FP in water deep enough that the foils don't grind on the botttom. In shallow water and not much wave action thats not a problem, but with bigger waves that's a serious problem. And in high tidal range areas like Normandy and Brittany, its a PITA - because you have to leave one crew standing in waist deep water while the other runs the quarter mile each way to get the damn dolly You can't just leave it beached even for a few minutes. And in bigger waves, that's a handful.

 

And the thing you don't seem to get about high performance boats is that its a pain to do crew with them. Because you really need skilled crew to run them with the foot in the gas. And running them with your foot out of the gas aint that much fun. One reason the laser is so popular is precisely because you don't have to coordinate with crew to sail or train.

 

Its not at all like "sharing the thrill of foiling with a friend"....

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\

And the thing you don't seem to get about high performance boats is that its a pain to do crew with them. Because you really need skilled crew to run them with the foot in the gas. And running them with your foot out of the gas aint that much fun. One reason the laser is so popular is precisely because you don't have to coordinate with crew to sail or train.

\

 

Ain't that the truth. When I was sailing '14s, the best I was ever able to do was when I had good, solid crew for a couple years and we got very good together. As I had less time to spend sailing, and said crew moved, it was hard to round up good crew and even with good crew, if you didn't sail all the time, it was always a struggle.

 

These boats are awesome, but they aren't for the masses, they are for sailors who can dedicate serious time to their campaigns.

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Please, please BB don't do your normal trick with DL......leave it alone

His input to this thread so far has been fine

 

For my two cents

I have seen many people (albeit small) enjoy their first foiling experience just joy-riding on a moth with the owner

In fact one of my best mates girlfriends first sailing experience was on a foiler moth

 

I can only imagine the same thing would happen more with a foiling cat!

Of course you will need crew experience and dynamic to perform at a high competition level

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think the FP is too hard for all but a few, but its the tradeoff between those who can afford $45k for a boat (not something most 20 and 30yos can) and those who've got the fitness and skill to sail that. A friend of mine bought a Musto - and 3 years later he still hasn't really got the hang of it. He's a very good keelboat sailor, and he's decently fit, but at 50+ he's just struggling to learn the skills. Of course its doable, but a lot harder as folks get older. And so you have the same paradox you have in motor cars - the folks who can afford the really high performance cars, IN GENERAL lack the skills to drive them competitively

 

Can't agree with this, the point of having a catamaran foiler is that, unlike a moth or a skiff, when you sheet out you can relax, you can take time to tack and gybe, you can hove to to get your breath back, then sheet in and fly when you are ready. Much easier, much more usable, and so (for me) worth more.

 

And my wife drives a Porsche with Porsche Cup suspension. Yes it's hard, but turns every corner into a pleasure. As Stampede says, life is short, make every moment as enjoyable as possible, so drive the car you want, sail the boat you want, and if you want to cruise conservatively through life, that's fine, but stay out of the way of the rest of us.

Excellent point! And you don't have to wade the Flying Phantom out on its side(like a Moth) and can sail off a beach(non-surf,for sure). You can share the thrill of foiling with a friend which is worth a lot to some people. And from what I understand, crashes won't be as much a part of the program as in a Moth.

As far as I'm concerned both are great boats and I'm watching Michelles development with his small foiling cat-exciting development!

You are clearly an idiot Doug. You have to launch the FP in water deep enough that the foils don't grind on the botttom. In shallow water and not much wave action thats not a problem, but with bigger waves that's a serious problem. And in high tidal range areas like Normandy and Brittany, its a PITA - because you have to leave one crew standing in waist deep water while the other runs the quarter mile each way to get the damn dolly You can't just leave it beached even for a few minutes. And in bigger waves, that's a handful.

 

And the thing you don't seem to get about high performance boats is that its a pain to do crew with them. Because you really need skilled crew to run them with the foot in the gas. And running them with your foot out of the gas aint that much fun. One reason the laser is so popular is precisely because you don't have to coordinate with crew to sail or train.

 

Its not at all like "sharing the thrill of foiling with a friend"....

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Yes - the good thing about the new foilers is that it is simple to modify the foils to keep up with developments. The Nacra 20C already had large C foils, but no rudder t-foils.

 

The Hydros C Class team did some of their development on modified Nacra 20Cs.

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Yes - the good thing about the new foilers is that it is simple to modify the foils to keep up with developments. The Nacra 20C already had large C foils, but no rudder t-foils.

 

The Hydros C class did some of their development on modified Nacra 20Cs.

Although the clip shown has plain rudder blades the final production version comes with t foil rudders

 

See:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=153736#entry4421993

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Excerpt from the excellent front page story by Ryan Breymaier on the Phantom: (http://sailinganarchy.com/ )

Unlike the Oracle, ETNZ, or Team Hydros boats there is no cant adjustment for the boat (inboard/outboard foil movement); the Phantom only allows fore/aft rake adjustment with an endlesss string/worm gear moving the upper foil and thereby changing AoA on the main foil. This sets the median speed of the boat and to some extent, the ride height, with the boat self-levelling as more of the foil comes out of the water. In a great innovation and something we saw on the gorgeous Groupama C boat, the weather board is lifted not by a block and tackle, but by the weight of the crew as he or she wires up on the new tack. Anyone who’s pulled up loaded boards knows this is a huge labor saver, and these boards are around 12 kg of pure carbon!

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Clean, I love the boat. Be nice if it became the AC :/ but then, as it is and as beautiful as it is and cutting edge, how the hell would I be able to quaff and oogle, etc. you get my drift...? :\

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I wrote to Alex Udin about beach launching and sailing with three people for fun. He said they "use a standard Tornado trolley" for beach launching-beats the hell out of launching the Moth off a beach. And that three people would be no problem.....

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why are you comparing a one-design, two man trapeze beach cat to a one-man development class Moth? because they both have foils? Stop making up arguments where there are none please Doug.

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Well, I don't see the big issue with beach launching a moth here, but our beaches in general go to deep in a hurry. I suppose it's different in Florida where it can be waist deep for quite a ways.

 

If I was up to a campaign, and I'm not, I'd consider it. For daysailing and local racing, I'll stick with the multi 23.

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I wrote to Alex again bout launching the Flying Phantom off the beach into surf like other beachcats. He said no problem particularly with the cassette rudders that allow good steering when partially down.

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OK. I was trying, in a convoluted way, to point out the difference between one foiler with retractable foils and another with non-retractable foils. No argument intended.

why are you comparing a one-design, two man trapeze beach cat to a one-man development class Moth? because they both have foils? Stop making up arguments where there are none please Doug.

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That is great news but I remain skeptical. Positive, but skeptical. Will this make it through the surf at Jupiter Beach? Is that even a project goal?

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Basically. Pick your flavor, a new F-18 is $24K. Phantom F-18 is closer to $28K. Phantom also lacks distribution, support in English may be somewhat challenging, 0 fleet size etc. It looks like a sweet ride but good luck.

FYI, Alex the leader of the whole thing speaks damned good English, and at that price I'd imagine you would deserve plenty of support from him. If not, you just call me and I'll make sure he is on the next flight over.

 

Clean,

 

Thank you for posting on this story. It's great that Alex speaks great English and has dedicated soo much time and energy to pushing the state of the art forward. I am optimistic sales will remain positive and we'll see a few stateside.

 

The lack of distribution = lack of parts support = +2 weeks to get a spare part. That is reality; early adopters sound like big $$$ guys that can order a container full of spares. They also have the expertise to tune a boat like this from scratch. Until you have a number of pros racing the boats regularly, it is tough to jump in at an amateur level. All of that is moot if you don't have cash in hand for a deposit!

 

-Sam

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You have to love all these Porsche analogies. The only one that is anywhere near to the mark is Macca with his comment, the rest of you I don't think have a clue. I base that on years of Porsche ownership, both of road and race cars.

 

First myth is that Porsches aren't everyday cars. The vast majority of their production is exactly that. They are comfortable, easy to drive and have all the modern comforts. You then have a group of cars, typified by the GT3, which are real sports cars, but still very drivable on the road even if, as Macca points out, you don't get to see the true potential. A few might thgink the GT3 is a bit too hard core for them on the road, but if that is so, then so are many 2 door sports cars of today. I always find it slightly amusing that the old definition of GT - Grand Tourer - better applies to the everyday Porsches than it does to the GT3 and more hard core derivatives.

 

Bingo! Horse for courses.

 

This flying phantom is not for the faint of heart, nor for the sailor that went for a few laps on his buddies beach cat and decides he's getting a flying phantom the next day and the price blows the back of his head off.

 

Same goes for mono dinghies. A college grad isn't going to run out and blow $40K on a brand new B6 I14 because he knows how to sail a 2 sail, sit in club 420. One hour on a 14er and he will quickly realize he isn't ready! Some progress and take steps up the performance ladder as they look for more and to build on their past experience. Folks that are willing to spend on performance know what they are getting into, be it running cost, racing costs and repair costs. You know before going in, or at least you should.

 

So, why is price a concern? This isn't the next entry level club catamaran...

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only cause I want one, and can't get it by the accountant!

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only cause I want one, and can't get it by the accountant!

 

 

If 1+1 doesn't equal 3 with the current guy, you need a new accountant!

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it's the better half, man….

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I sure as hell wouldn't put my new Phantom thru the surf there or at Canaveral-there are so many other places with great wind to sail one of these-like out of Kelly Park. But for experienced "surf catters" and based on what Alex said, its a go if you're up for it.

 

That is great news but I remain skeptical. Positive, but skeptical. Will this make it through the surf at Jupiter Beach? Is that even a project goal?

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it's the better half, man….

 

OH, you're fucked.

 

No new boat for you!

 

Sometimes better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

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So my assumption that I believe is pretty well founded is that for the L section of the foils the aerofoil shape is perpendicular to the foil so the lift is perpendicular to the foils direction, which gives you some unwanted lift to leeward as well as increased drag for a given lift vs a foil that is only creating vertical lift.

 

Would it be possible to rotate the aerofoil shapes so that even while the foil they are a part of is not horizontal, they create all of their lift upwards, sort of rotating them about the 'roll' axis to point upwards always? Then at worst you lose the associated lift to leeward that you don't want and I believe would gain vertical lift given the same length and angle of the foil.

 

I'm not sure if I got my point across clearly, I could try and draw diagrams if necessary, also I'm still in high school so if this is already clearly unviable for some reason feel free to point it out to me. I just feel like the main disadvantage of the surface piercing foils vs fully submerged types we saw on OffYerRocker of the Moths or even Bradfields foilers is that extra drag they produce at off angles, which it seems like this could combat by only providing lift in the necessary direction.

 

Thanks guys, I like the idea of the Phantom and good luck.

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I sure as hell wouldn't put my new Phantom thru the surf there or at Canaveral-there are so many other places with great wind to sail one of these-like out of Kelly Park. But for experienced "surf catters" and based on what Alex said, its a go if you're up for it.

 

That is great news but I remain skeptical. Positive, but skeptical. Will this make it through the surf at Jupiter Beach? Is that even a project goal?

Actually what Alex says is you CANNOT launch in surf because you risk bottoming out the boards and damaging them. As for what YOU would do Doug? You haven't sailed anything off a beach in over a decade. Shut the fuck up

 

Ya know its great to know that Alex is a standup guy and answered your emails. But Doug you know that

  • You are never going to buy one
  • You are never going to sail one
  • And your reputation in the places online that you post is absolute awful (you have no idea how many PM's Ive gotten from posters on Boat Design.NET who consider you an idiot).

So why do you think its a reasonable thing for you to be taking up Alex's valuable time as he tries to promote this boat and make it successful. Stop wasting people's time

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I sure as hell wouldn't put my new Phantom thru the surf there or at Canaveral-there are so many other places with great wind to sail one of these-like out of Kelly Park. But for experienced "surf catters" and based on what Alex said, its a go if you're up for it.

 

That is great news but I remain skeptical. Positive, but skeptical. Will this make it through the surf at Jupiter Beach? Is that even a project goal?

Actually what Alex says is you CANNOT launch in surf because you risk bottoming out the boards and damaging them. As for what YOU would do Doug? You haven't sailed anything off a beach in over a decade. Shut the fuck up

 

Ya know its great to know that Alex is a standup guy and answered your emails. But Doug you know that

  • You are never going to buy one
  • You are never going to sail one
  • And your reputation in the places online that you post is absolute awful (you have no idea how many PM's Ive gotten from posters on Boat Design.NET who consider you an idiot).

So why do you think its a reasonable thing for you to be taking up Alex's valuable time as he tries to promote this boat and make it successful. Stop wasting people's time

 

That is absolutely false-I wrote Alex and he said surf launching was fine! Generally, I ignore this poster even when he lies about me. But when he outright lies about what Alex Udin said I have to say something.

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So my assumption that I believe is pretty well founded is that for the L section of the foils the aerofoil shape is perpendicular to the foil so the lift is perpendicular to the foils direction, which gives you some unwanted lift to leeward as well as increased drag for a given lift vs a foil that is only creating vertical lift.

 

Would it be possible to rotate the aerofoil shapes so that even while the foil they are a part of is not horizontal, they create all of their lift upwards, sort of rotating them about the 'roll' axis to point upwards always? Then at worst you lose the associated lift to leeward that you don't want and I believe would gain vertical lift given the same length and angle of the foil.

 

I'm not sure if I got my point across clearly, I could try and draw diagrams if necessary, also I'm still in high school so if this is already clearly unviable for some reason feel free to point it out to me. I just feel like the main disadvantage of the surface piercing foils vs fully submerged types we saw on OffYerRocker of the Moths or even Bradfields foilers is that extra drag they produce at off angles, which it seems like this could combat by only providing lift in the necessary direction.

 

Thanks guys, I like the idea of the Phantom and good luck.

 

The "up-tip" of the Phantom and Groupama(and TNZ) does exactly what you say but the drag penalty is offset by superior heave stablility(ride height control). In the LAC, Hydros had much less of the "up tip" on the "L" portion of the foil and it required constant attention to foil angle of incidence(foil rake) and was a handfull. Groupama won because it's altitude control (heave stability) was much more stable and required less attention for steady flying.

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You have to love all these Porsche analogies. The only one that is anywhere near to the mark is Macca with his comment, the rest of you I don't think have a clue. I base that on years of Porsche ownership, both of road and race cars.

 

First myth is that Porsches aren't everyday cars. The vast majority of their production is exactly that. They are comfortable, easy to drive and have all the modern comforts. You then have a group of cars, typified by the GT3, which are real sports cars, but still very drivable on the road even if, as Macca points out, you don't get to see the true potential. A few might thgink the GT3 is a bit too hard core for them on the road, but if that is so, then so are many 2 door sports cars of today. I always find it slightly amusing that the old definition of GT - Grand Tourer - better applies to the everyday Porsches than it does to the GT3 and more hard core derivatives.

Bingo! Horse for courses.

 

This flying phantom is not for the faint of heart, nor for the sailor that went for a few laps on his buddies beach cat and decides he's getting a flying phantom the next day and the price blows the back of his head off.

 

Same goes for mono dinghies. A college grad isn't going to run out and blow $40K on a brand new B6 I14 because he knows how to sail a 2 sail, sit in club 420. One hour on a 14er and he will quickly realize he isn't ready! Some progress and take steps up the performance ladder as they look for more and to build on their past experience. Folks that are willing to spend on performance know what they are getting into, be it running cost, racing costs and repair costs. You know before going in, or at least you should.

 

So, why is price a concern? This isn't the next entry level club catamaran...

 

+10000000

 

I really hope Lummox is right and we see a spectator class emerge. I too love watching the extreme 40s and the loved watching the AC35. Imagine 30+ boats foiling on a dowmwind leg! It's exactly what this sport needs to get people watching.

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All said and done, not taking sides here, but the past is prologue, and in sailing past as prologue is de rigeur. We never do seem to give up hope, though, remember the FD, the Tempest, and more? Better to hang back and watch (with beer and warm bun nearby) and learn; or wish and hope? Not judging, just wondering what all the fuss is about?

 

Even if foiled cats make it easy and so on, what then?

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So my assumption that I believe is pretty well founded is that for the L section of the foils the aerofoil shape is perpendicular to the foil so the lift is perpendicular to the foils direction, which gives you some unwanted lift to leeward as well as increased drag for a given lift vs a foil that is only creating vertical lift.

 

Would it be possible to rotate the aerofoil shapes so that even while the foil they are a part of is not horizontal, they create all of their lift upwards, sort of rotating them about the 'roll' axis to point upwards always? Then at worst you lose the associated lift to leeward that you don't want and I believe would gain vertical lift given the same length and angle of the foil.

 

I'm not sure if I got my point across clearly, I could try and draw diagrams if necessary, also I'm still in high school so if this is already clearly unviable for some reason feel free to point it out to me. I just feel like the main disadvantage of the surface piercing foils vs fully submerged types we saw on OffYerRocker of the Moths or even Bradfields foilers is that extra drag they produce at off angles, which it seems like this could combat by only providing lift in the necessary direction.

 

Thanks guys, I like the idea of the Phantom and good luck.

 

The "up-tip" of the Phantom and Groupama(and TNZ) does exactly what you say but the drag penalty is offset by superior heave stablility(ride height control). In the LAC, Hydros had much less of the "up tip" on the "L" portion of the foil and it required constant attention to foil angle of incidence(foil rake) and was a handfull. Groupama won because it's altitude control (heave stability) was much more stable and required less attention for steady flying.

This is exactly it. the idea is that anyone who can drive an f-18 in a regatta can drive this too. Billy Besson (the Hydros driver) is one of the best multihull drivers I know, is in the middle of a Nacra 17 olympic campaign, and could barely keep up with that boat, which had a much more open foil shape than Groupama who won...

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No that's not exactly it. Ride Height Control is not "heave stabiility". Heave stability is the the reduction of porpoising, which is similar to, but different from ride height control. Ride height control is what Moths do with adjustable wand length so that you ride higher in flatter water. Heave stability is the dynamic feedback loop involved in actually balancing the Lift, speed and drag equations.

 

as usual Dougie is reguurgitating received wisdom (phrases and terms) others (like Blunted) have written extensively on, but which Dougie hasn't actually understood. Dougie stop wasting Alex Udin's time - you are never going to buy one of these, you are never going to sail one, and except at maybe the Miami Boat show - you arent ever going to see one in real life. Go back to being Bluto or Mini or whatever character at DisneyWorld you make a living at being.

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I didn't had time to watch the live coverage of the LAC, but there are some uploaded clips in the other thread. From what I've seen, I wouldn't call any of the foiling C-cats stable compared to a moth or an AC72. Upwind seemed OK, but downwind looks pretty rough regardless of the tip angle. I guess I must've seen the wrong videos...

 

i captured this segment of video from the sailing anarchy webcast in Cornwall. C cats foiling upwind to the A mark.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5_xsGLug9gqRS0zLXRiTW5hSTA/edit?usp=sharing

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Heres a video showing the excellent heave stability(ride height control) and pitch stability of the Flying Phantom:

 

 

And another:

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Some of you need to get your head out of your arses and maybe even do some sailing before posting BS on forums.

 

1. Launching off a surf beach - Anybody who thinks this is a significant issue is talking out of their arse! Yes, the consequences of allowing the boat to bottom out when launching are a bit worse (because the foils are in) but because they sit close to the hull, it shouldn't be any more of an issue than usual, unless you are the type who allows your high performance, exotic sailboat to bounce up and down on the bottom when launching. In some ways, the FP will be easier, because dagger rudders are better than pivoting ones (less load when sailing away) and you can get some board down quicker. If you want a boat you can sail up the beach, then a high performance cat is probably not for you - you couldn't do that with an A Class, F18, N20 or any other such boat so why expect that from the FP.

 

2.Doug, wasting people's time on this forum with your obsession is one thing, but wasting the time of people in business when there is zero chance of you ever buying one of their products stinks of arrogance, self importance and a lack of respect for other people's time.

 

3. Yet again, Doug relies on videos he find on the net to support his arguments and isn't able to process the real data that is available in the videos. The first video never shows the FP for more than about 10 seconds without cutting to another shot, so provides us with zero evidence of long term stability. In the second video, you can clearly see the helm doing lots of steering to keep the boat up on foils. We know that the sailors in the videos are all world class and my guess from watching the videos (and having sailed foilers myself) is that these boats are going to be a real handful. I have no issue with that and don't see that as a negative, but I suspect that these are not the easy to sail, pitch stable machines that some would like to believe they are.

 

I look forward to seeing these boats out on the water in a variety of conditions with differing levels of skill sailing them. That is when we will learn what the boats are really like.

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Doug, take a look at the 2nd video again. Very active steering. But I wouldn't have expected anything else. It's interesting to me that the crew wasn't fully hiked, I wonder if it's a safe position to bring the crew in a bit when it's gusty, variable which I assume it would be so close to shore.

 

I know you're looking for a foiler with a lounge chair and a robot to hike for you, but these machines aren't for that demographic.

 

Doug, when I think of you I think an aging Han Solo sitting on a plastic lawn chair on a flying bridge deck catamaran, barking at C3PO to hike harder.

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Doug, take a look at the 2nd video again. Very active steering. But I wouldn't have expected anything else. It's interesting to me that the crew wasn't fully hiked, I wonder if it's a safe position to bring the crew in a bit when it's gusty, variable which I assume it would be so close to shore.

 

I know you're looking for a foiler with a lounge chair and a robot to hike for you, but these machines aren't for that demographic.

 

Doug, when I think of you I think an aging Han Solo sitting on a plastic lawn chair on a flying bridge deck catamaran, barking at C3PO to hike harder.

 

Interesting. I never said a word about this thing being easy to sail or hard to sail-I've never sailed it . I asked Alex specifically about three people sailing the boat and he said no problem. In no way did I suggest anywhere that this boat represented "a foiler with a lounge chair and a robot to hike..." Not once, not anyplace about this boat-thats just made up absurdity.....

PS- I am absolutely convinced that an easy to sail, comfortable foiler is possible.

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Some of you need to get your head out of your arses and maybe even do some sailing before posting BS on forums.

 

1. Launching off a surf beach - Anybody who thinks this is a significant issue is talking out of their arse! Yes, the consequences of allowing the boat to bottom out when launching are a bit worse (because the foils are in) but because they sit close to the hull, it shouldn't be any more of an issue than usual, unless you are the type who allows your high performance, exotic sailboat to bounce up and down on the bottom when launching. In some ways, the FP will be easier, because dagger rudders are better than pivoting ones (less load when sailing away) and you can get some board down quicker. If you want a boat you can sail up the beach, then a high performance cat is probably not for you - you couldn't do that with an A Class, F18, N20 or any other such boat so why expect that from the FP.

 

2.Doug, wasting people's time on this forum with your obsession is one thing, but wasting the time of people in business when there is zero chance of you ever buying one of their products stinks of arrogance, self importance and a lack of respect for other people's time.

 

3. Yet again, Doug relies on videos he find on the net to support his arguments and isn't able to process the real data that is available in the videos. The first video never shows the FP for more than about 10 seconds without cutting to another shot, so provides us with zero evidence of long term stability. In the second video, you can clearly see the helm doing lots of steering to keep the boat up on foils. We know that the sailors in the videos are all world class and my guess from watching the videos (and having sailed foilers myself) is that these boats are going to be a real handful. I have no issue with that and don't see that as a negative, but I suspect that these are not the easy to sail, pitch stable machines that some would like to believe they are.

 

I look forward to seeing these boats out on the water in a variety of conditions with differing levels of skill sailing them. That is when we will learn what the boats are really like.

 

This is just plain bullshit, Simon! Alex has been most helpful answering questions that nobody knew the answer to-now they do thanks to him(and my asking the questions) and not more half-assed speculation. Hardly a waste of anyones time-like your comments. Making a statement like you did is the "heigth of arrogance" and just simple talking thru your ass! I'm interested in this boat, I think it is a major breakthru in catamaran design. Thanks to the answers I've gotten from Alex and posted about the boat, speculation is not necessary about being able to use a standard Tornado dolly , surf launching and sailing with three people all of which Alex said were fine.

The conclusions you drew from those videos are simply nuts.

 

 

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Simon,

 

My posts regarding beach launching and landing were meant to be sarcastic. I don't think any sensible sailor will be running this up on the beach. Its design is pretty clear; pure line honors in distance races with no serious surf at the launch or landing, and training for the AC teams.

 

As to what we do with existing high performance catamarans, might want to check your facts...a few little races called the Worrell 1000, Tybee 500 and GT300 have start and finish lines in the surf. The only boat I wouldn't beach land on your list is the A-Cat.

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Good article in the Daily Sail about the Flying Phantom: http://www.thedailysail.com/dinghy/13/65735/0/foiling-phantom-to-go-into-production

 

Another tidbit from the article: the rudder rake is not adjustable.

I see a lot of mainsheet sawing when flying this FP. You can be sure some garage rebel will have it adjustable asap!. The moving pin like on my Moth's cassette rudder is pretty simple, and will surely work nicely on my A-cat.

 

Note to self- surface piercing catamaran foilers tend to not pitchpole. All 3 of mine never did and still do not. Not that I've sailed them in SF Bay- just Gulf of Mexico, Atlantic Ocean, Lake Michigan etc. plus fresh water.

 

Also - From a CO quote on the last page-" When it comes to foilers in production we have (HAD?) the examples of the Rave and (Ketterman?) Trifoiler from which to draw when it comes to crew sailed foiling boats".

I might point out these are dinosaurs from the pre-carbon era: The Rave I owned and sailed was way too heavy, clunky, overengineered so it would not break, and had rotomolded polyethylene hulls. Think not Porsche, but American Motors' Gremlin! The Ketterman trifoiler still goes fast on J-foils but is more of a nuisance to put together and handle than a Moth. Where the Hell is the US innovation crew? Playing TiddlyWInks on a iPad? (Wow that dates me) Wasting their lives shooting electronic freaking Zombies on an iPad? Sheesh. Is there any hope?

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Doug stop wasting the time of someone trying to run a business. What you don't seem to get is that you restating something supposedly by the creator/owner DECREASES THEIR CREDIBILITY. You are Hurting the business Shut the fuckup and leave the guy alone

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From the mythical FP about the flying phantom:

The rudders are high aspect ratio, with ultra high aspect ratio elevators that bring to mind a moth’s T-rudders. The rudders are mounted in lifting cassettes; not for adjustment underway, but for beaching and launching. The rake adjustments come via the cassette mounts; instead of normal pintles and gudgeous, the cassettes attach to the boat with uniballs to allow the boat to be properly balanced with angle-of-attack adjustments to the entire rudder and elevator.

 

i think the consensus was that the LAC was won on the upwind legs. Groupama had more power in their rig and could point higher.

 

A beach launch with some waves is one thing. What about the landing. You slow down in the deep water pull all your shit up and proceed thru the surf line steering with the sails and whatever rudder stub is left under water . Maybe you could ride one in steering with a paddle. If you do get side ways to the surf during a set....good luck

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On small cats like the H17 (with the sails down) you can lift all the foils, hop in the water holding the bows down and the boat will surf straight in. Don't ask..

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Good article in the Daily Sail about the Flying Phantom: http://www.thedailysail.com/dinghy/13/65735/0/foiling-phantom-to-go-into-production

 

Another tidbit from the article: the rudder rake is not adjustable.

 

Excerpt-

The rake control for the daggerboard may take some getting to use to, but the boat is otherwise aimed at being relatively simple to sail and to provide average mortal cat sailors with the opportunity to get a taste of America's Cup technology at a substantially cheaper price point. The boat is clearly interesting Cup teams, as one has already placed an order for some.

 

This appears to be incorrect from the Daily Sail though the rudder foils may not be adjustable under sail they are adjustable as per Ryans front page article.

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Without siding with anyone here, as I really have only common sense gut feeling re foils and wings, it does not mean I do not have an opinion about how the issues are dispensed.

 

What I do not understand is this: a person offers "x" be it fact or fiction, someone may add or reject, first first offers rationale or expands stated rationale, and second person either rejects or accepts...and, at least when I am involved, I let it go...

 

There are times when we learn from these exchanges and there are time when we cannot.

 

Some people are open to learning, which means they might have to give up some of their certainties, others suffer what some call epistemic failure and cannot be helped...you get my drift.

 

Gee, I feel so much better now. Have a fun weekend and holiday period...all year...ubuntu is for all of us all the time, or should be.

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Happy Festivus BobBill

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Good article in the Daily Sail about the Flying Phantom: http://www.thedailysail.com/dinghy/13/65735/0/foiling-phantom-to-go-into-production

 

Another tidbit from the article: the rudder rake is not adjustable.

 

Excerpt-

The rake control for the daggerboard may take some getting to use to, but the boat is otherwise aimed at being relatively simple to sail and to provide average mortal cat sailors with the opportunity to get a taste of America's Cup technology at a substantially cheaper price point. The boat is clearly interesting Cup teams, as one has already placed an order for some.

 

This appears to be incorrect from the Daily Sail though the rudder foils may not be adjustable under sail they are adjustable as per Ryans front page article.

Doug, if you bothered to listen to people like me who have actually seen this thing, there is no rudder adjusment.

 

One of the other things about the "auto DB Lift" is that it pretty much presumes your crew is strong enough to "hook up on the wire" because with the DB down, the trap hook is too high to easily hook up before going out, you can of course lower the hook, but then you are transitioning immediately into an aggressive trapping position

 

IOW this is a high skill boat.

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Also - From a CO quote on the last page-" When it comes to foilers in production we have (HAD?) the examples of the Rave and (Ketterman?) Trifoiler from which to draw when it comes to crew sailed foiling boats".

I might point out these are dinosaurs from the pre-carbon era: The Rave I owned and sailed was way too heavy, clunky, overengineered so it would not break, and had rotomolded polyethylene hulls.

 

I'm surprised that you are still pimping this concept of the "pre-carbon era" when it isn't true now, nor was it the first time you made this same comment.

 

Carbon was in use all over the place during the Rave and Trifolier period. All-carbon sea kayaks were easily and commonly available, so the use of the material was already well-established, even for boats at the most affordable level as sea kayaks. It seems that this is a stumbling point for you, but it need not be so difficult. Hobie and Windrider were both trying to make foiling boats that could be price point effective in the marketplace, hence the material choices. Their failure in the marketplace, though, was not due to the lack of carbon in the build regime. If anything, their deaths would have likely been hastened by building them in carbon, as the consumer price point would have been even more of an obstacle to the necessary sales that might have kept them alive in the respective product lineups.

 

They are the only two crew sailed products to get to a production stage and as such, leave an indelible reality check for anyone who dares to go in that direction.

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The pro circuit is one of the best ideas so far.

 

This dagger rudder concept is interesting.
It could be that a partially down dagger rudder works better than a partially down swing down rudder that tries to round the boat up.
Possibly a secondary steering system for take offs and landings would be useful. in the past i have tied the rudders off in partially down position and paddled thru the inside surf. next time i will leave the rudders all the way up and try and get the boat to glide strait with the sail eased. It could be that just steering with your weight and the sails can be perfected.

it could be that a rudder foil adjustment isn't that necessary for the upwind and downwind change of dynamics on these flycats because the sailors can easily shift their weight.
on the other hand you wouldn't need to shift your weight if you had the adjustment.

maybe if the rudder case had a slider on top with a worm gear like the main foils have….. but i'm sure they must have a reason for not making it that way.
i think at least being able to easily change rudder rake on the water is something that would be nice on any cat. maybe not during the heat of racing, but for tuning.

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e-mail I just received from Phantom International:

 

At the end of the show, Phantom International sold 15 Flying Phantom units and received fifty expressions of interest with 80% of applications outside France. Therefore and very soon , the Flying Phantom will fly over San Francisco Bay, on Lake Geneva or along French coastal areas.

The coming weeks will be focused on: the production of first customer units, sailing sessions for optimization and preparation of Düsseldorf Boat Show that will be held in January from the 18th to the 26th.

Alex Udin
"After three years of intensive Research and Development, selling 15 boats at the French Boat Show for the first public presentation and exposure is a fantastic news. The idea is really to democratize the foiling and flying boats like America's Cup ones. Of course, the Flying Phantom is a sport boat like any sport catamaran such as F18 and then the target is sporty sailors. Expression of interest are coming from America's Cup teams, professional sailors, multihulls specialists but also from amateurs looking for new sensations.
During 2014, the Flying Phantom will be racing on the international catamaran circuit, an in the mean time the objective is to create a One Design class European tour and American tour.

The whole Phantom International team also wishes to thank all the support and interest received during the launch of the Flying Phantom at Paris Boat Show.
We will keep you informed of our progress and get back to you very soon to present the 2014 calendar and schedule".


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It looks like the ACWS is not going to start until 2015, so the FP guys have a opportunity to get their boat established as a training class for AC teams.

 

The other boat that looks to be in a good position is the GC32 which reportedly is going to have L foils in 2014.

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I'm aware of possibly 2 boats for SF Bay. Will be great to see them here and how they do on the main bay. There are plenty of places to sail without big, nasty chop, but I'd like to see them out in the big stuff.

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The conclusions you draw from those videos are simply nuts

Doug

 

Yet again, your total lack of on the water experience lets you down and you show you have very little understanding of the dynamics of a high performance boat. If you know what you are looking at, you can see from the videos that the boat is quite a handful and needs lots of skill to keep it going on foils. Now, I don't see that as a negative - in fact, totally the opposite, because what makes boats like this and the Moth fun is the challenge. Consider the facts

 

The biggest tell tale that the boat is a real handful is how the crew are trapezing, which is particularly clear in the second video. Watch it and note how the guys are trapezing with their legs wide apart. You only do that when it is hard to stay on he side of the boat. It's that simple. And the reason why it is hard to stay on the side is pretty obvious if you watch closely. You can see the amount of steering going on and it isn't small little corrections. It is clear that the steering is in time with the boat rising and falling, meaning that you need to steer aggressively to stay up and steady on the foils. Is this a surprise? It shouldn't be to anybody who knows how foilers behave. So, Doug, from your vast experience of sailing high performance trapeze boats, cats and foilers, why are my conclusions "nuts"?

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The conclusions you draw from those videos are simply nuts

Doug

 

Yet again, your total lack of on the water experience lets you down and you show you have very little understanding of the dynamics of a high performance boat. If you know what you are looking at, you can see from the videos that the boat is quite a handful and needs lots of skill to keep it going on foils. Now, I don't see that as a negative - in fact, totally the opposite, because what makes boats like this and the Moth fun is the challenge. Consider the facts

 

The biggest tell tale that the boat is a real handful is how the crew are trapezing, which is particularly clear in the second video. Watch it and note how the guys are trapezing with their legs wide apart. You only do that when it is hard to stay on he side of the boat. It's that simple. And the reason why it is hard to stay on the side is pretty obvious if you watch closely. You can see the amount of steering going on and it isn't small little corrections. It is clear that the steering is in time with the boat rising and falling, meaning that you need to steer aggressively to stay up and steady on the foils. Is this a surprise? It shouldn't be to anybody who knows how foilers behave. So, Doug, from your vast experience of sailing high performance trapeze boats, cats and foilers, why are my conclusions "nuts"?

 

Because you draw conclusions about the Flying Phantom without ever sailing it in the same way that you mischaracterize my sailing/foiling/design experience . You do that to me all the time with ZERO facts to back you up and that shows a willingness to say anything at anytime to try to "win" an argument leaving your comments completely untrustworthy and unworthy of any respect from me.

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The conclusions you draw from those videos are simply nuts

Doug

 

Yet again, your total lack of on the water experience lets you down and you show you have very little understanding of the dynamics of a high performance boat. If you know what you are looking at, you can see from the videos that the boat is quite a handful and needs lots of skill to keep it going on foils. Now, I don't see that as a negative - in fact, totally the opposite, because what makes boats like this and the Moth fun is the challenge. Consider the facts

 

The biggest tell tale that the boat is a real handful is how the crew are trapezing, which is particularly clear in the second video. Watch it and note how the guys are trapezing with their legs wide apart. You only do that when it is hard to stay on he side of the boat. It's that simple. And the reason why it is hard to stay on the side is pretty obvious if you watch closely. You can see the amount of steering going on and it isn't small little corrections. It is clear that the steering is in time with the boat rising and falling, meaning that you need to steer aggressively to stay up and steady on the foils. Is this a surprise? It shouldn't be to anybody who knows how foilers behave. So, Doug, from your vast experience of sailing high performance trapeze boats, cats and foilers, why are my conclusions "nuts"?

 

Because you draw conclusions about the Flying Phantom without ever sailing it in the same way that you mischaracterize my sailing/foiling/design experience . You do that to me all the time with ZERO facts to back you up and that shows a willingness to say anything at anytime to try to "win" an argument leaving your comments completely untrustworthy and unworthy of any respect from me.

Doug you have no meaningful sailing or foiling or design experience. Your full sized designs have been catastrophic failures - the patents you applied for on them were rapidly abandoned by their assignees as useless, your foiler never did more than bunny hop,

 

your "sailing" experience is about what Simon gets in one season on his Moth, and your "foiling" experience is limited to someone else's rave.

 

When you were offered a paid trip to the Moth Intergalactics you basically declined to go because despite folks being willing to show you how they work, you realized you would be seen for the n000b you are. Working for Disneyworld (part time I gather), living with your mom in your parents home and being a hanger on to Sam Bradfield's work.

 

 

You are a joke and you are harming the efforts of Alex Udin both by taking up his valualbe time with your ego masturbation and by associating your name with that project. You are unversally seen as a joke. Even on Boat Design.net where you have had more postings taken down than any other recent poster.

 

 

Get a fucking clue

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Why dont you 3 or 4 people go and start a "multihulls foiling bitch, bitches, and bitching" thread, so the rest of us, dont have to put up with all the bitches, and bitching....

 

thank you..... <_<

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Ate - I suspect Bloodshot was making fun of Doug since YouTube is the limit of his sailing experience in the last decade. If you want, I can talk about Mustos, Swift Solos, 5ohs J120s, re-keeled Soverels, Stars I-14s, Laser IIs, Hobie beach cats (of various flavors) 420s, Lasers All of which I have raced during the last decade at varying levels of competition. And in fact if you actually paid attention you would have seen me have those discussions here.

 

I'd love to get to sail the Phantom - looks like a fun boat. But I think the $45k it costs would be better invested in an A Cat or a Mini. Or an F18 PLUS a Moth. Perhaps the best thing that can happen to the Phantom is that some of the AC class boats opt to use it as a foiling trainer. Particularly if the ACWS opts to go foiling. then what you would see is a bunch of boats bought up, and then resold on the used market. THAT would jumpstart the fleet.

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First, no friggen beach cat is worth that much...even if it would be easy to sail and the the hull was notched to keep the stupid foils from bottoming and the things were so adjustable that they could serve as sun visors, when needed. Second, no friggen beach cat is worth that kinda shekels, even if the mast was a completely and quickly collapeseable wing...I mean why the foolish (wtf) or are we being funned?

 

Frankly, I am weary of Mr. Lord and his endless prattle about foils and other stuff that few real wogs like me have but a passing interest.

 

Happy holidays and may luck and life bless us, every one even foil freaks.

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Hate to throw fuel on a fire, but Martin Fischer told me quite specifically on camera that the Flying Phantom shocked him with how easy it was to get up on the foils and sail around. The entire point is to make it easy.

 

Also, someone mentioned Cammas up top; the reason Groupama C won despite not necessarily being the quickest around the track is that 1) she didn't flip or break when all her competition did (and non-foiling Canaan had a better-than-even chance of beating GpmaC for the Cup had she not flipped on the second day) and 2) Cammas' hulls, foils, and canting rig was such a superior package upwind that she could generally start to windward of the fleet, sail in high mode for a bit, then foot off and pop the boat up on the foils and crush everyone.

 

Downwind Cammas was not nearly as fast as Hydros, but far more stable. A good choice for the venue.

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Buy the mold for one of the prototype foils that then turns out not to be fast.

 

Clean if it is that easy then the hard/fun part will be figuring out the tuning. but the $45k price tag is more than unrealistic. the info I have is that the boats in NorthAm were sold in SFO so that means either some Google Money (or FB or similar) OR its the GGYC buying some and some parents of Wannabes for the next cycle buyng some for Sonny Boy (or girl).

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If something is worth the money or effort is an individual thing and could easily become subject to endless discussions because there is no right or wrong.

In some situations when you have old strong chop which does not comply with the actual wind direction there is no other way than beaching with one hull close or even slightly touching the ground. See round Texel 2013 winner on video for example.

With this v-foil setup you limit your save sailing and beaching options (wind & wave range). BUT like a formula1 or Indy 500 racing car. These machines are not made for crusing around. You need to have advanced skills to enjoy your new toy. Just don't buy it when you can not handle it or maintain it in a proper way.

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Buy the mold for one of the prototype foils that then turns out not to be fast.

 

Clean if it is that easy then the hard/fun part will be figuring out the tuning. but the $45k price tag is more than unrealistic. the info I have is that the boats in NorthAm were sold in SFO so that means either some Google Money (or FB or similar) OR its the GGYC buying some and some parents of Wannabes for the next cycle buyng some for Sonny Boy (or girl).

 

Neither, but don't stop speculating.

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Nope. Not going there. But you will see more of them on the bay ;)

 

The big brother is also headed to the bay in numbers too. I've always loved the Bay Area and now even more so!

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Nope. Not going there. But you will see more of them on the bay ;)

 

The big brother is also headed to the bay in numbers too. I've always loved the Bay Area and now even more so!

 

Macca, can't wait to see the 32 on her new foils-wish you the best! Merry Christmas!

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New video from the Phantom guys. Beach launching and landing, sailing in waves, stupid speed....

 

Yah, I want one!

 

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You want one, ask yourself how long you and it will last, then rob a bank...you will need the house on the beach first, then buy the boat and have at it.

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Looks great! Still can afford one though. Are they dropping the tiller extension on purpose? It kind of looks like its working like a wand but I'm not sure that's by design.

 

New video from the Phantom guys. Beach launching and landing, sailing in waves, stupid speed....

 

Yah, I want one!

 

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Cat sailors often let the tiller extension trail behind them as they find it easier to steer downwind by holding the cross bar and not smacking their crew in the face with the extension.

Video looks awesome. I want one too. But I wont be buying one.

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...Video looks awesome. I want one too. But I wont be buying one.

 

 

And therein lies the threshold of reality. By far and away, when confronted with the highest end of performance for any consumer product, most folks will drool like mad over the coolest of the lot and then pragmatically buy the product that meets the majority of their needs with the most affordable of price points.

 

This boat will be exactly conformed in the marketplace in the very same fashion. Fun to look at, fun to dream about and very limited in actual sales to end users.

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New video from the Phantom guys. Beach launching and landing, sailing in waves, stupid speed....

 

Yah, I want one!

 

 

I'd say they did a pretty good job of directly addressing a lot of the skepticism the trolls have been spouting in this thread.

 

Chris, by your logic, Ferrari should just stop making road cars. Porsche should quit the whole stupid 911 thing and focus on solely on the Cayenne. It must be a dreary and dull little world you live in. I would like to kindly invite you to fuck off so I can get on with the drooling and dreaming.

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looks pretty good. Let's some some big chop now...

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