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Raz'r

Flying Phantom

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^^

Basically translates as: "I'm skint, out-of-shape, and need a good pair of glasses as well"

I can relate to your financial consideration, I don't have the money lying about either. You don't cleat the mainsheet of any remotely performance oriented boat as soon as you are a bit serious about going fast, speed costs, not only money but effort as well. As to the launching an landing, you can clearly see that the third man is there at the launch, but by no means necessary for the launch per sé, at the landing the third man is neither present nor necessary.

 

Love the Phantom and would, if I had the money lying about, be very interested to hear from Nacra about the foiling F20. For now they have to stay dreams, for me.

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Oops I seem to need new glasses as well. There are two men waiting for them on the beach, but their presence is more a courtesy not a necessity, so my argument stands.

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New video from the Phantom guys. Beach launching and landing, sailing in waves, stupid speed....

 

Yah, I want one!

 

 

I'd say they did a pretty good job of directly addressing a lot of the skepticism the trolls have been spouting in this thread.

 

Chris, by your logic, Ferrari should just stop making road cars. Porsche should quit the whole stupid 911 thing and focus on solely on the Cayenne. It must be a dreary and dull little world you live in. I would like to kindly invite you to fuck off so I can get on with the drooling and dreaming.

Not sure whom you are referring to as trolls but it doesn't alleviate much of my skepticism.

 

even in a fairly small onshore surf, two guys had to hold her out while a third guy brought the dolly into deepenough water not to trash the foils

 

And on the foils, she looked every bit as much a handful as any skiff the course they sail jitters quite a bit and the trimmer is constantly working the sheets. No cleating the sheets on that baby.

 

Now I dunno how many are fit enough to sail for an hour with the sheet always trimming. Its a workout

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I think the boat's an absolute marvel. but $45,000 worth of marvel? meh... I don't have Phillipe's kind of money - picking up 10cents or whatever it is for every cellphone sold with a built in camera

 

Doesn't seem any different to a F18 recovery in the surf if you don't want your hulls to touch the sand. In bigger surf it doesn't sound feasible, but no one is expecting to beach the boat on the foils!

 

As to performance in waves, read here: http://www.phantom-international.com/2014/01/flying-phantom-a-rocket-2014-start/

 

They go into mixed foiling/displacement mode and achieve better performance than a non-foiling package. Honestly the only downsides over something like the F20carbon are moderatly increased cost and inability to beach in emergency or race.

 

Also doesn't appear any more of a handful than a F18 in top racing mode. We never cleat the main sheet upwind. Downwind its a little closer to the Nacra 17, with 2 on the wire. I haven't sailed a skiff but I'm sure the comparison is apt. What are you expecting, an easy button on the tiller?

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One other thing...I could easily sail the 110 and Ensign alone...or with comely and quiet crew...and beer.

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I see that their own advertising is no less positive than Doug.

 

http://www.phantom-international.com/2013/12/flying-phantom-flying-on-a-multihull-now-within-everyones-reach/

 

I also see that Doug's been accused of wasting their time by emailing them to ask how easy/hard it is to launch it off a beach, but I'd say he's done them a favour - all the negative stuff here had me believing it wasn't viable in that regard, but that negativity turned out to be a great big steaming pile of misleading shite.

 

And sure, it costs a small fortune by most people's reckoning, but if you have the money, it's far better to blow it on one of these than some boring sports car of similar cost: the FP's a bargain by comparison, and I can imagine a lot of people with money who've dabbled in sailing being tempted by a toy like this. I'm certainly going to be saving up for one, but it also occurs to me that I could get one for half price by finding someone to split the cost and helm alternate days - that would obviously be a risky arrangement for some, but if you know from past experience that you're teaming up with the right person it could work very well. I'm not set on getting one though - it would still depend on someone else locally getting one so that there's someone to race against properly.

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Well, David, one side of me understands and agrees with your point(s), and the flip side does not agree, but only in the sense there are alternatives, like needy people or neglected youth programs, rather than cars...as alternatives to a "splurge."

 

Honestly, if I had that level of spare cash, I would buy 10 Inter Club (IC) cat boats and give them to our very lame park district...for youth sailing, but that is me, and I understand many would never come close to the idea.

 

As to Mr. Lord. Doug has a genetic problem and could benefit from some sort of meds, but not my call. In honesty, in his way, he has helped me in my ignorance regarding foiling, but I am a quick study, so I tend to just ignore him...people can figure him out easily enough. Still, on occasion I do smile, a lot.

 

Phantom, not for me and would not have been decades ago. Too narrow a sailing venue, even if I lived on a beach.

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Well, David, one side of me understands and agrees with your point(s), and the flip side does not agree, but only in the sense there are alternatives, like needy people or neglected youth programs, rather than cars...as alternatives to a "splurge."

 

Honestly, if I had that level of spare cash, I would buy 10 Inter Club (IC) cat boats and give them to our very lame park district...for youth sailing, but that is me, and I understand many would never come close to the idea.

 

As to Mr. Lord. Doug has a genetic problem and could benefit from some sort of meds, but not my call. In honesty, in his way, he has helped me in my ignorance regarding foiling, but I am a quick study, so I tend to just ignore him...people can figure him out easily enough. Still, on occasion I do smile, a lot.

 

Phantom, not for me and would not have been decades ago. Too narrow a sailing venue, even if I lived on a beach.

 

bb#2- funny you should say that after all the time I took to try to help you on boatdesign-I'll remember....

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David Cooper

Welcome, but you need to do some research as to the duties of newbies and I await the resultant picture with interest!

 

I am not sure that anybody said that the FP couldn't be launched off a beach, because that would be stupid. The question is more about launching off a beach when there are some half decent waves around. It's hard enough to prevent a regular cat from touching the bottom, but one with delicate foils sticking out is far more of a handful. And by delicate, I am not suggesting that they aren't strong and well built, but you have trailing edges and a good finish to look after. It has been well proven that scratches and poor finish on moth foils have a big impact on speed, so looking after foils is really important.

 

Then there is an issue most will never have come across. If you launch with foils alreadt in and you are sailing off a beach with any amount of sand at all, the beach break contains lots of sand which ends up d around the plate case. on a normal daggerboard boat, you simply have to get out into deeper water and make sure the case is free of sand BEFORE inserting the board. It's a real pain if you are on a lee shore and need some board in and I have scratched up boards in that very manner. It's a simple fact that if you sail off a sandy beach, sand gets everywhere and if your board is in but up, it will get very scratched in a short amount of time.

 

Great boat, would love to own one, but too expensive and it will need a huge amount of looking after.

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Doug, I was not nagging, I acknowledged your help, but, on occasion, admit it, you are sometimes a bit "enthusiastic"...and that is all I was referring to, not being nasty...was just in response to David's references, which included you.

 

If I offended you personally, I apologize, 't'was not intended, not my nature.

 

I do value your help and have saved all your responses that were useful to my projects past and present; particularly with my rudder build, (which I have yet to finish) and the current outrigger project as well.

 

I will admit to a bit of envy, you in Florida and me in Minnesota, just in from third day of shoveling away a "plow-wake" from city snow plows.

 

Peace boyo, peace!

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David Cooper

Welcome, but you need to do some research as to the duties of newbies and I await the resultant picture with interest!

 

I am not sure that anybody said that the FP couldn't be launched off a beach, because that would be stupid. The question is more about launching off a beach when there are some half decent waves around. It's hard enough to prevent a regular cat from touching the bottom, but one with delicate foils sticking out is far more of a handful. And by delicate, I am not suggesting that they aren't strong and well built, but you have trailing edges and a good finish to look after. It has been well proven that scratches and poor finish on moth foils have a big impact on speed, so looking after foils is really important.

 

Then there is an issue most will never have come across. If you launch with foils alreadt in and you are sailing off a beach with any amount of sand at all, the beach break contains lots of sand which ends up d around the plate case. on a normal daggerboard boat, you simply have to get out into deeper water and make sure the case is free of sand BEFORE inserting the board. It's a real pain if you are on a lee shore and need some board in and I have scratched up boards in that very manner. It's a simple fact that if you sail off a sandy beach, sand gets everywhere and if your board is in but up, it will get very scratched in a short amount of time.

 

Great boat, would love to own one, but too expensive and it will need a huge amount of looking after.

David, +1. Sensible.

 

I would add, as most beach swabs know, the boat better be one toughie, if the surf is up often...I mean, some of these things are a lot more spendy and fragile than a Hobie 16 or old Malibu Outrigger...frankly, I would be very fearful of playing the the surf with spendy boat, meaning coming or going...just my take...different tacks for different folks, as always.

 

God, I just thought of a day when we could run a boat so far ashore, if we did not bury the bow in the sand, that we would have to swivel (tack) the boat at the last moment to ride in sideways, so as not to hit a child or person...or breaking the boat.

 

Spent many a minute trying to clear the area, which was near impossible some days, or jumping off to walk it in...too naive then to care about the dangers. Different now, way diff.

 

As noted, time will tell.

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David Cooper

Welcome, but you need to do some research as to the duties of newbies and I await the resultant picture with interest!

 

Conforming to silly rules like that doesn't sound like true anarchy to me.

 

I am not sure that anybody said that the FP couldn't be launched off a beach, because that would be stupid. The question is more about launching off a beach when there are some half decent waves around. It's hard enough to prevent a regular cat from touching the bottom, but one with delicate foils sticking out is far more of a handful. And by delicate, I am not suggesting that they aren't strong and well built, but you have trailing edges and a good finish to look after. It has been well proven that scratches and poor finish on moth foils have a big impact on speed, so looking after foils is really important.

 

A simple solution for that would be foil covers - you'd only need to protect a short section where it bends and it should be possible to reach that to remove or fit the covers while sailing.

 

 

Then there is an issue most will never have come across. If you launch with foils alreadt in and you are sailing off a beach with any amount of sand at all, the beach break contains lots of sand which ends up d around the plate case. on a normal daggerboard boat, you simply have to get out into deeper water and make sure the case is free of sand BEFORE inserting the board. It's a real pain if you are on a lee shore and need some board in and I have scratched up boards in that very manner. It's a simple fact that if you sail off a sandy beach, sand gets everywhere and if your board is in but up, it will get very scratched in a short amount of time.

 

That's something that does need to be worked out. It wouldn't be too hard to tape over the gaps each time before launching, then rip the tape off at the same time as removing the foil covers. If you need to push a foil down before then, the tape should give way and let it through, and so long as you can keep sand out of the top, the foil should always be coming out of a clean case. At the top you could keep sand out with a brush-like surround without the drag issues you'd get if you tried doing that underneath. That would still leave the problem of sand getting in when you land and already being inside the case the next time you launch, but you could design a rubber seal into the foil covers that would be pressed hard up against the hull when the foil's hauled right up. That would probably eliminate the need for using any tape on launch as well - if you push a foil down on launching it wouldn't get any more scratched than ordinary foils already do, and probably much less so as sand would be kept out till the last moment.

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Simon brings up a good point. Everyone gets sand in the daggerboard slots from time to time. It's good habit just to pour some water down them before putting the boards in and rinse the boards too. With the Phantom, that will be much tougher given the boards are inserted from the bottom. You may have to load the boards on land and just live with the occasional scarring. I've never liked putting my boats on the sand to capsize them to check rigging or the bottom of the hulls. I wonder if it is easier to put the boards in by lifting the bows or if you have to put the boat on its side to load the boards. Or perhaps just load the boards once the boat is in the water and then be able to make sure everything is clean beforehand?

 

I can't imagine that most people wouldn't like to try the Phantom. It's a really interesting boat and I hope a lot of us get to sail it at one point or another. I hope I get to see one soon. Any boats coming to the Southeast US yet?

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I know I'll be lining up to try one.

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Funny how this conversation drifts to the "beach-ability" aspect. Up here in the mountains of Montana, a beach means the rocks are smaller than golf balls, but larger than peas...that's a great beach. I have yet to see a beach that I could hit running without ripping holes in my H16. For many cat sailors (including myself) beach-ability is a non issue. I'm a land locked lubber who uses a 5 mil wetsuit in late August. I trailer sail every time...every time.

 

And sign me up to try one of these wild rockets while your at it. Absolutely fascinating, I don't care what the cost is! I'm not buying one, but it doesn't mean I can't watch the videos 20 times a day or hope to see some class development. Yes, push the boundaries! This is a Bugatti Veyron. I like it but will never have it...I'm OK with that. At least let me fantasize. There are people out there with the flow to play at this level and I would love to watch.

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another fan here.

i think that you would find that if you had one of these you would have a rack for it for when it was in the shed, or high chocks. they would be high enough to put the foils down, or load the boards before you head down to launch. Maybe bring the chocks to the dingy park.

Sand inside; good luck. It looked like maybe they were trimming the main foil angle like a sail, but it isn't clear in the video.

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I think you will all be surprised at the ease of use the phantom provides. As you can see from the latest videos it's a nice stable ride, no nasty bits and managing it onshore is very similar to any other high perf cat like an f18 or A cat. You need to deal with the same foil scratching issues on those boats and we somehow work around it. No difference on the fly phantom.

 

The boat will be at the show in dusseldorf so if you are around you should come to the multihull forum and check it out

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Time will tell, indeed,, "foiled again!!" But, I will always be smiling in my modest tacking outrigger proa I suspect surf, sand or stone.

post-38311-0-15474000-1389952546_thumb.jpg

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SimonN - my partner has agreed to a photo being taken especially for you, so enjoy!

post-101430-0-37951400-1389985307_thumb.jpg

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It must be the venue, but many many multi-hull posts end up eventually in flames. Ever notice? Rhetorical, no response needed.

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It must be the venue, but many many multi-hull posts end up eventually in flames. Ever notice? Rhetorical, no response needed.

 

bb#2, just out of curiosity: why to you continue to post in this thread? It's the "Flying Phantom" thread-and your posts seem to have nothing to do with that-just wondering what drives you? No "outrigger proa " threads?

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Cause there hasn't been a good scow war in awhile and people are itching for a fight?

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Flash, Makes sense to me. Will be driving over the hump to be out your way come July-ish...I have daughter in San Raphael and friend in Tib...driving and will bring the barge, I get it to the sailing point. Always wanted to drive out to the Farallons.

 

Hey Doug, S the above should answer your ?

 

Besides, it is or was 5 degrees here and my simple mind wanders, then I get email about the thread...so...I perk right up and I take a whack where it seems to fit...not often, but sometimes.

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Well, David, one side of me understands and agrees with your point(s), and the flip side does not agree, but only in the sense there are alternatives, like needy people or neglected youth programs, rather than cars...as alternatives to a "splurge."

 

Honestly, if I had that level of spare cash, I would buy 10 Inter Club (IC) cat boats and give them to our very lame park district...for youth sailing, but that is me, and I understand many would never come close to the idea.

 

As to Mr. Lord. Doug has a genetic problem and could benefit from some sort of meds, but not my call. In honesty, in his way, he has helped me in my ignorance regarding foiling, but I am a quick study, so I tend to just ignore him...people can figure him out easily enough. Still, on occasion I do smile, a lot.

 

Phantom, not for me and would not have been decades ago. Too narrow a sailing venue, even if I lived on a beach.

 

bb#2- funny you should say that after all the time I took to try to help you on boatdesign-I'll remember....

Doug you do have a problem. And what you think is "help" most people consider thread disruptioin.

 

Now fuck off.

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New video from the Phantom guys. Beach launching and landing, sailing in waves, stupid speed....

 

Yah, I want one!

 

 

I'd say they did a pretty good job of directly addressing a lot of the skepticism the trolls have been spouting in this thread.

 

Chris, by your logic, Ferrari should just stop making road cars. Porsche should quit the whole stupid 911 thing and focus on solely on the Cayenne. It must be a dreary and dull little world you live in. I would like to kindly invite you to fuck off so I can get on with the drooling and dreaming.

Not sure whom you are referring to as trolls but it doesn't alleviate much of my skepticism.

 

even in a fairly small onshore surf, two guys had to hold her out while a third guy brought the dolly into deepenough water not to trash the foils

 

And on the foils, she looked every bit as much a handful as any skiff the course they sail jitters quite a bit and the trimmer is constantly working the sheets. No cleating the sheets on that baby.

 

Now I dunno how many are fit enough to sail for an hour with the sheet always trimming. Its a workout

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I think the boat's an absolute marvel. but $45,000 worth of marvel? meh... I don't have Phillipe's kind of money - picking up 10cents or whatever it is for every cellphone sold with a built in camera

 

Doesn't seem any different to a F18 recovery in the surf if you don't want your hulls to touch the sand. In bigger surf it doesn't sound feasible, but no one is expecting to beach the boat on the foils!

 

As to performance in waves, read here: http://www.phantom-international.com/2014/01/flying-phantom-a-rocket-2014-start/

 

They go into mixed foiling/displacement mode and achieve better performance than a non-foiling package. Honestly the only downsides over something like the F20carbon are moderatly increased cost and inability to beach in emergency or race.

 

Also doesn't appear any more of a handful than a F18 in top racing mode. We never cleat the main sheet upwind. Downwind its a little closer to the Nacra 17, with 2 on the wire. I haven't sailed a skiff but I'm sure the comparison is apt. What are you expecting, an easy button on the tiller?

 

I agree its probably akin to n F18 in full race mode. but that's hardly the venue for newbies.

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This boat is hardly for Newbs. It's for people who can sail performance cats.

Luckily though it is a 2 man boat, so you can take less experienced people out and give them a go/train them up.

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This boat is hardly for Newbs. It's for people who can sail performance cats.

Luckily though it is a 2 man boat, so you can take less experienced people out and give them a go/train them up.

 

This comment is from Alex Udin in an e-mail from Phantom International:

 

Alex Udin

"After three years of intensive Research and Development, selling 15 boats at the French Boat Show for the first public presentation and exposure is a fantastic news. The idea is really to democratize the foiling and flying boats like America's Cup ones. Of course, the Flying Phantom is a sport boat like any sport catamaran such as F18 and then the target is sporty sailors. Expression of interest are coming from America's Cup teams, professional sailors, multihulls specialists but also from amateurs looking for new sensations.

 

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Well, as we all know, time (the market) will tell...

 

Not to denigrate the beautiful, fast and accommodating Marstom and the slick as can be and magnificent SL 33...GC 32 is a stunner.

 

I mean, these are serious boats, not beachy but peachy.

 

Sport boats, sport boat is what? They are all fargin sport boats...beach, trailer, buoy, whatever...shoot me!

 

Kicking a dead horse for any length is as pointless as voting for incumbents and complaining nothing changes.

 

As noted, wishes not, market yes. End of story.

 

Meanwhile, its snow (here) and planning out the steps to finish me wee outrigger...I had the time and the money I would foil the bugger just to have a grin at this. Ma Thone she is or will be on the soft wet, lads.

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Geez, Douglas.... is there no marketing hype that you won't try to cram down your neck while kneeling before the false gods of your imagination?

 

You're the kind of guy who would have run right out and purchased an Edsel, or a Pinto, simply because someone pimped it off as the greatest thing since your hand discovered your penis.

 

By far and away, the vast majority of the sailing world doesn't give two shits about the Phantom. I didn't have to make-up that data. It's clearly out there for anyone to digest.

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"Geez Chris!" You really are a sorry, bitter, little man aren't you? By and far away the vast majority doesn't give a single shit neither for your hyper dull sailcraft "designs", nor for your small minded opinions. Maybe if you had half the enthousiasm that Doug appears to have you might have been halfway interesting.

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Bothers you, doesn't it, that someone has a reasoned, data supported argument and you have... well, let's just call it ad hominem puffery?

 

I happen to like my design work and it's doing just fine, thank you. The Phantom won't even appeal to the majority of folks who would be most likely to find it compelling... the existing beach cat audience. Oh, they'll look at it and go, "oooh, cool" and all that, but there will not be a mob rush to buy them at $40K+ and therein, my narrow-minded, non-thinking friend, is the tale for the ages. And, that's the most likely target audience that already thinks about fun cats. The buying crowd will get entirely smaller from that point forward.

 

I think it's fine that SI wants to market this product, but it amounts to turning-out a gold plated lounge on the deck of the Titanic. What we really need are well-thought-out boats that can serve to bring more new sailors into a croaking, sailboat marketplace so that fresh bodies show up to enjoy the sport we all find compelling and not an answer to a trivia question ten years from now. Me, I look to the kinds of boats being produced by Michele (Ita16 on these threads) as the answer to an industry that has gotten off-track in the almighty rush to produce ever more expensive and overly complicated machines that very, very few can afford. Michele is going to bring his boat to the beach in the mid-teens of dollars and he is opening-up a brand new take to a sailing audience that actually matters to the overall success of the industry.

 

Your thinking, Genealex, is old dead wood swept-up on the beach by a tide that has full control over your mannerisms and style. You're the guy who is standing in a flooding lifeboat while sputtering, "Yeah, but did you see that goddamned foiling cat?".. while quaffing a toddy with your pinkie finger extended. On the front page of this rag, just this week: http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/01/16/done-2/ Another respected player in the marketplace has bitten the dust, unceremoniously. Meanwhile, you are drooling over the frosting while a cake maker is dead right before your eyes.

 

As to Doug and his enthusiasm... I'm getting a mental picture of a retard over in the corner, furiously fisting himself to death while chanting obscure passages from some babble he saw on the Internet. Yeah, I'd have to say you are right. That sure is enthusiastic, but the question remains... did he create any offspring that actually breathed air? If that's your boy (and it sure sounds like it after you joined his club) then I'd say you've made one hell of a sound decision.

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interesting "discussion" here! What I think is funny is this, and this might shock some of you. Not all boats are designed to appeal to all sailors. Shocking isn't it? This boat is too pricey for me but I think it's cool. Sure I bet it's delicate and so if you aren't able to treat it right (or just won't) you shouldn't buy it. If you don't like foils, don't buy it. But for crying out loud lets see if there is a market. Who knows, there just might be!

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Dear Chris,

 

My reaction to you is ad hominem, because I'm fed up with your negativity. Accept the fact that some people are attracted to overly complicated expensive stuff, they are not your prospective buyers anyway, so save your time and stop trying to teach them the error of their ways. Go post in threads where you can participate in some constructive way. Don't waste your effort in replying to me because I'm done with this conversation.

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I have to defend Chris...those who flame him are ignorant of past history here and elsewhere...DL has baggage, which I accept, but I understand those who do not abide his stuff here.

 


Deal with it! This is SA and this forum is rather well known for its small-minded flamers.

 

As to this particular boat, if it is around in 5 years all the power to it and its class...still, that said, all these fargin' designs are singular, all of them and they are novel.

 

Moreover, if you some here have not figured that out, you should confine your play to virtual pasta..or mature a bit before marking here.

 

Some of the juvi-shidt that I read here is amazing...really amazing.

 

My flame is done! Deal with it!

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Thanks for the comments, BB.

 

Genealex... what can I say? You're from the Netherlands, if we are to believe your personal data. You want pie in the sky baloney to fill your life because your very existence is constantly being threatened by a rising ocean. I wonder if you would want to know about the issues, which are supported by data that sea level is rising, so you could make some changes in your habits before it's too late.

 

You're the classic example of the guy who strolls about town naked in The Emperor's New Clothes, insisting that there's nothing wrong while the town laughs its ass off at your foolishness. That's curious to me, as The Dutch are typically known as a people who very much have their feet on the ground. Well, I guess there has to be a problematic goof in the parade every once in awhile to, you know, make it all interesting.

 

Take your head out of your butt, G-Man. It's not too late to acknowledge that addressing negative, as well as positive issues within the design process is a normal and very much necessary component. You don't win by glossing over the obvious. And please open your mind to the whole spectrum of a given topic and not just the candy cane world you wish were before you.

 

I'll say it again for the thousandth time... I enjoy performance boats a lot and this one is no different from all the others in that regard. I wouldn't buy one and the vast majority of the sailing community wouldn't either. So, does that mean that they are righteously negative, too? Or, does it mean that the product is a tiny little slice of pure excess in a struggling outdoor sports genre that is getting further and further away from what any boating enthusiast would prescribe as an antidote for what the data is telling us? I say it is precisely that and it's way off the mark when it comes to being the right boat at the right time. Apparently, you think it's just groovy to shove hyper-technical, hyper-expensive products out in front of the public when they are already running away from the sport in meaningful numbers.

 

This is pretty much the same nonsense that killed windsurfing as a viable genre within the sport.

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If I had $40k laying around for one of these, I'd be all over it. Unfortunately, if I had $40k to spend on anything, it'd be a new sander for work.

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If I had $40k to spend on a sailboat I wouldn't be spending it on this.

I checked on A class a little while back and could get the best of everything for $30k new so for say $20k you could get a competitive s/h boat.

However for $40k I would be going to a S/H 30 ft cat and think about converting to foils.

For OTB, what does a good S/H F18 cost?

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Dear Chris,

 

My reaction to you is ad hominem, because I'm fed up with your negativity. Accept the fact that some people are attracted to overly complicated expensive stuff, they are not your prospective buyers anyway, so save your time and stop trying to teach them the error of their ways. Go post in threads where you can participate in some constructive way. Don't waste your effort in replying to me because I'm done with this conversation.

The only way to deal with him is with the ignore function.

 

I wish he would get back to making stuff like this again

 

http://chris0designs.blogspot.com

 

it's up to 30,000 hits!

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First, if we all hung our egos on a hook someplace, before we come hither, we would all benefit.

 

Second, Lummox offers good advice...easy to circumnavigate what might be offensive...and give us some learning too. Let's face it, most of us, Doug, Chris and even Captain Bob (moi) might have something to contribute...you get my drift.

 

Learning does mean you have to be willing to give up a piece of yourself to make room for new stuff???

 

I am not the only dodger who thinks this forum is heated...not the thread, but multi hull forum generally.

 

I figure the quick retorts are inversely commensurate to one's mental VMG, not one's (multi hulled) boat.

 

And, before I stumble off my soapbox, I think deep down we all want the same things, I mean, after all, aren't we all swabs?

 

For me, there is not a soul here I would not want to meet and even sail with, as long as the boat floats, regardless it flies or is a 4ksb whatever, I forgot the expression, but even that is better than sitting on a piling or

 

hanging out in our -7 degrees here (Minnesota, MN, USA) and being confined indoors until the sun peaks when the temps rise, while some of y'all can go sailing, shoot me!

 

BTW, while the "Quadramaran" does not fire me up, it does do other things pleasurable to me...pace!

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Look at a map, macca. Mobile is not sitting on a lake. It's the Gulf of Mexico. Kinda tough to argue with a fool who can't even pick up an easily sourced map to verify something before shooting the mouth off.

 

"The example you just gave above is relevant to pretty much any catamaran, if you hit a log in your F18 at 20kts its going to break shit too, and the same materials are used in the boat so what the hell is different about fixing it??" Are you suggesting that a GT3 can be easily repaired in a shop in any small town in the USA, for instance? I've got news for you. It can't.

 

This repair job, on the fictitious Phantom is not a simple, glass and epoxy glue-up job as you are suggesting. I tell you what, let an average, wrench spinner in small town America have at your GT3 to effect a repair and let's see how well it runs, how well it handles, how predictably it delivers that factory performance after it's been fixed by a guy with all the wrong tools, no diagnostics and no understanding of the complex nature of the precision instrument. That's the problem, macca. I would have thought that a guy with your background would have known that.

 

Actually the US Sailing Team boatwright Donnie Brennan has his shop in Mobile and he would be able to repair it. My Corsair is in his shop right now getting some work done and he has done some pretty extensive A-Class conversions and repairs for me and others. He is very good at carbon and epoxy. Sorry Chris, you picked the wrong area for your example!

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OK, so pick another. The reality is still the same.

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Look at a map, macca. Mobile is not sitting on a lake. It's the Gulf of Mexico. Kinda tough to argue with a fool who can't even pick up an easily sourced map to verify something before shooting the mouth off.

 

"The example you just gave above is relevant to pretty much any catamaran, if you hit a log in your F18 at 20kts its going to break shit too, and the same materials are used in the boat so what the hell is different about fixing it??" Are you suggesting that a GT3 can be easily repaired in a shop in any small town in the USA, for instance? I've got news for you. It can't.

 

This repair job, on the fictitious Phantom is not a simple, glass and epoxy glue-up job as you are suggesting. I tell you what, let an average, wrench spinner in small town America have at your GT3 to effect a repair and let's see how well it runs, how well it handles, how predictably it delivers that factory performance after it's been fixed by a guy with all the wrong tools, no diagnostics and no understanding of the complex nature of the precision instrument. That's the problem, macca. I would have thought that a guy with your background would have known that.

 

Actually the US Sailing Team boatwright Donnie Brennan has his shop in Mobile and he would be able to repair it. My Corsair is in his shop right now getting some work done and he has done some pretty extensive A-Class conversions and repairs for me and others. He is very good at carbon and epoxy. Sorry Chris, you picked the wrong area for your example!

too funny!!!

 

Chris, you really should leave the positive people to get on with it.

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Hi Macca,

 

I think we have to accept Chris O has a very warped opinion of what the market requires to stimulate growth in sailing and particular catamaran sailing.....all that you, Alex and SI are doing should be applauded for having the balls to push the boundaries (much as the foiling moth has done) of what we expect and aspire to.....when I started sailing along with Grant (my business partner at NacraUK) we did so as we aspired to what was the fastest most exciting boat on the water which back in the 70's was the Tornado.....nothing has changed today.....youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there.....SI has set the mark....and given our commercial position we are fully aware of how foiling is driving the market and aspirations forward......just look at the facts of AC, A class, FP project, foiling Nacra F20 C, foiling Eagle 20, etc, etc....surely it is difficult to argue with the combined market teams and cutting edge sailors about the validity of the move to foiling.....clearly there is a place for the kind of boats that Chris O designs and sees as the future of catamaran sailing.....but to infer that the FP project is adding to the death of sailings popularity is nonsense....I have to say that his personal nasty slanderous attacks on those who dispute his data is really full on 'trolling'.....no doubt you Macca and I will get a nasty personal attack about our 'stupidity' from Chris O in his next comment....but hey ho I am sure you and us have the confidence in our position to ignore his opinion.....please remember opinions are like assholes.....everyone has one and they all stink apart from our own......

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As a fan, am excited to see what you guys come up with for this summer, and to see some 18-20' cat foiling race footage.

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Hi Macca,

 

I think we have to accept Chris O has a very warped opinion of what the market requires to stimulate growth in sailing and particular catamaran sailing..........youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there.....SI has set the mark....and given our commercial position we are fully aware of how foiling is driving the market and aspirations forward......just look at the facts of AC, A class, FP project, foiling Nacra F20 C, foiling Eagle 20, etc, etc....surely it is difficult to argue with the combined market teams and cutting edge sailors about the validity of the move to foiling.....

 

I don't agree with the way CO says a lot of the things he says. But are you sure that the substance of his argument is so wrong? There seems to be very little evidence of a massive shift to high performance boats and watersports that are doing well are getting into simpler stuff. Here in Oz, for example, at national title level the growth area seems to be more in the medium-pace "amateur" classes and the slow International singlehanders, not in high performance classes.

 

If the "youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there" then why are they racing lots of Optis, Toppers, Radials etc but so few foilers? Why are there (last time I checked) more youth here racing Radials and Sabres (a slow singlehander like a Solo) than fast singlehanded dinghies, kites, boards and foilers?

 

Sure, some sectors of the industry are pushing high performance boats - but a lot of the industry seem to be ignoring the move to foiling and high performance. Why should we believe that the guys behind the Eagle 20 etc are right and Beneteau, Hobie, Laser USA, and other builders of conventional craft are wrong?

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Why should we believe that the guys behind the Eagle 20 etc are right and Beneteau, Hobie, Laser USA, and other builders of conventional craft are wrong?

 

I do not see anywhere that the pro-foiler crowd said "Beneteau, Hobie, Laser USA" or even Chris Ostlind are "wrong".

 

I actually see more of "we know it is not for everyone".

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their biz plan may be ok at 50/year.

 

they don't change the world, but provide some grins and make a couple bucks.

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Hi Macca,

 

I think we have to accept Chris O has a very warped opinion of what the market requires to stimulate growth in sailing and particular catamaran sailing..........youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there.....SI has set the mark....and given our commercial position we are fully aware of how foiling is driving the market and aspirations forward......just look at the facts of AC, A class, FP project, foiling Nacra F20 C, foiling Eagle 20, etc, etc....surely it is difficult to argue with the combined market teams and cutting edge sailors about the validity of the move to foiling.....

 

I don't agree with the way CO says a lot of the things he says. But are you sure that the substance of his argument is so wrong? There seems to be very little evidence of a massive shift to high performance boats and watersports that are doing well are getting into simpler stuff. Here in Oz, for example, at national title level the growth area seems to be more in the medium-pace "amateur" classes and the slow International singlehanders, not in high performance classes.

 

If the "youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there" then why are they racing lots of Optis, Toppers, Radials etc but so few foilers? Why are there (last time I checked) more youth here racing Radials and Sabres (a slow singlehander like a Solo) than fast singlehanded dinghies, kites, boards and foilers?

 

Sure, some sectors of the industry are pushing high performance boats - but a lot of the industry seem to be ignoring the move to foiling and high performance. Why should we believe that the guys behind the Eagle 20 etc are right and Beneteau, Hobie, Laser USA, and other builders of conventional craft are wrong?

 

What's with all these "false dichotomy" arguments that the multihull forum seems to get bogged down in.

 

Some companies are trying to sell foiling multihulls. They are small operations and would be happy with enough sales to cover their costs plus a modest profit. I say good luck to them and I hope they succeed.

 

None of this has anything to do with mass produced monohulls. Different manufacturers and different customers.

 

How about all the posters who have no interest in the Flying Phantom find something that does interest them and start posting about it.

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Why should we believe that the guys behind the Eagle 20 etc are right and Beneteau, Hobie, Laser USA, and other builders of conventional craft are wrong?

 

I do not see anywhere that the pro-foiler crowd said "Beneteau, Hobie, Laser USA" or even Chris Ostlind are "wrong".

 

I actually see more of "we know it is not for everyone".

 

There are clear and definite claims that foiling cats are THE future; not a future for some people, not a future for a niche, not a future for high performance cats alone. THE future...the one and only future for our sport.

 

The FP website claims that "foiling boats will be the future of cat sailing". The same site later steps up the claim to say that "foiling cats are the future of our sport". A cat sailing site claims that "these kinds of developments are the ones building the future of sailing."

 

That's pretty unequivocal and pretty clear. Apparently, the guys who love A class cats or "displacement" tris will not exist in this future that belongs only to foiling cats. The cruising cats? Gone. Skiffs? Not part of this future. Hobies? Lasers? Flying Scots? Optis and the other conventional boats that make up most of our sport? Out the door and on the scrapheap apparently. Foiling Moths, kites? Not in the future. Windsurfers dropping into 60 foot high waves at Jaws? Not in the future.

 

Of course, these claims are marketing hyperbole (hopefully) aka bullshit. But if people are going to step into the realms of hyperbole and make claims that THE future for our sport consists of just one type of complicated and expensive boat, then surely some pushback must be expected.

 

If people want reasoned and balanced reaction to their marketing, surely they must make reasoned and balanced claims in their marketing? Or do people get to make grandiose and over-the-top claims in marketing and then complain when people respond in grandiose and over the top ways?

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Hi Macca,

 

I think we have to accept Chris O has a very warped opinion of what the market requires to stimulate growth in sailing and particular catamaran sailing..........youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there.....SI has set the mark....and given our commercial position we are fully aware of how foiling is driving the market and aspirations forward......just look at the facts of AC, A class, FP project, foiling Nacra F20 C, foiling Eagle 20, etc, etc....surely it is difficult to argue with the combined market teams and cutting edge sailors about the validity of the move to foiling.....

 

I don't agree with the way CO says a lot of the things he says. But are you sure that the substance of his argument is so wrong? There seems to be very little evidence of a massive shift to high performance boats and watersports that are doing well are getting into simpler stuff. Here in Oz, for example, at national title level the growth area seems to be more in the medium-pace "amateur" classes and the slow International singlehanders, not in high performance classes.

 

If the "youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there" then why are they racing lots of Optis, Toppers, Radials etc but so few foilers? Why are there (last time I checked) more youth here racing Radials and Sabres (a slow singlehander like a Solo) than fast singlehanded dinghies, kites, boards and foilers?

 

Sure, some sectors of the industry are pushing high performance boats - but a lot of the industry seem to be ignoring the move to foiling and high performance. Why should we believe that the guys behind the Eagle 20 etc are right and Beneteau, Hobie, Laser USA, and other builders of conventional craft are wrong?

 

What's with all these "false dichotomy" arguments that the multihull forum seems to get bogged down in.

 

Some companies are trying to sell foiling multihulls. They are small operations and would be happy with enough sales to cover their costs plus a modest profit. I say good luck to them and I hope they succeed.

 

None of this has anything to do with mass produced monohulls. Different manufacturers and different customers.

 

How about all the posters who have no interest in the Flying Phantom find something that does interest them and start posting about it.

 

It's not a false dichotomy - it's people addressing specific claims that certain types and trends are the future of the whole sport, and similar claims that imply that there are no different customers.

 

The FP site claims (as noted above) that foiling cats are THE future of the sport - not just a future for "different manufacturers and different customers". The poster I was replying to said that "youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there" He didn't say that SOME of the youngest aspire to fast boats. He said that " foiling is driving the market and aspirations forward", not that foiling is driving SOME of the market and aspirations.

 

If marketers said that "foiling cats are the future of SOME areas of the sport", or that "SOME of the youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there" or that "foiing is driving SOME of the market" then some of us would have no issues with their claims. But to the extent that their claims are over-stated surely it's reasonable to respond to them.

 

The FP looks cool. I'm not hoping that if flops. All I'm hoping for is that people who are pushing such boats have enough respect for the tastes of other sailors to accept that foiling cats are not THE future, but just one of many different valid futures. And if they are going to use hyperbole and marketingspeak then they have to expect people to use hyperbole in response.

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Chris, you really should leave the positive people to get on with it.

 

 

By that I guess you mean the "positive people" who said that swinging keels and CBTF were the future of our sport and that the technology would sweep the sailing world by storm? Those "positive people" who, over the course of the last ten years have been shown that swinging keels and CBTF have not swept the world of sailing as we know it? That the technology only exists on but a very few, select racing machines worldwide, while the rest of the sailing industry limps along on fixed keels, ignoring the claims of the "positive people". Were you one of those "positive people", Macca? If you were, I'd sure like to know how positive you are now.

 

From the results of the last decade, it would appear that the only thing positive about the boisterous claims, is that they were positively wrong.

 

I would also caution you to simply take a look at the last hundred years that foils have been around as an available technology for boats. Some guys stuck them on a power boat a hundred years ago and then poof!, they pretty much disappeared from the boating world. Then there was another rush to stick them on boats back in the 60's and 70's and poof! , once again, they vanished from the genre, only to be "rediscovered" in recent times and subsequently hailed as the future of our sport. That's a lot of futures for one technology. I would suggest that a prudent person would approach the technology, as well the use of same, with more than a grain of salt held tightly between his lips. This might just keep the foaming at the mouth types from blurting out this kind idiotic nonsense, lest they make fools of themselves.

 

When you live by the flavor of the month, you also die by it.

 

I prefer to be positive about resurrecting the sailing industry with more affordable, more accessible products, so that young folks can have a path that takes them to a boating product that their parents can afford to put on the water. There's a solid reason why companies like Hobie are winning, big time, by producing affordable boats that get families and youngsters out on the water. That may, or may not, change in the future, as Ketterman is a real whiz at developing products that nobody thought were possible. But, for right now, Hobie is not choosing to enter the game with a foiler. Have any of the "positive people" even asked themselves as to why Greg Ketterman, a recognized guru in the technology, has not put one of his own creations into the marketplace? Is it because the costs to produce such a limited appeal craft would drive the retail price into the stratosphere, where sales are extremely limited? Or, is because the technology just isn't a good fit for the company philosophy, in spite of the disputed fact that it is the future of our sport ?

 

I hope for positive things for interests such as Macca represents, or SI with their products, but if history isn't any kind of real world lesson that has been absorbed, then the marketplace surely will teach the lessons that are apparently necessary. Take a long look at the new, small cat about to be offered by Michele with his S.9 design. He's created a fully functional small cat that is sized and reasonably priced for a more affordable representation in the marketplace. It can also be equipped, as an option, with lifting foils, should any of his customers choose to go in that direction.

 

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Chris O.... Do you have the same reaction to all Marketing campaigns...?

 

I think you err in interpreting trends in the larger world of sailing with the sweep of history created by a subset of sailors sailing twin hulled boats.

 

My sense of the sweep of multihull history is that the pursuit of High Performance is the one constant of our niche and that Multihull sailors are wired slightly differently then most of the monohull sailors. We are not fixated on the number of hulls.... we are driven by the performance on the water.. The sweep of history has been one of one high performance class giving way to another high performance class. In our hey day.... When culture and demographics exploded interest in sailing... we had enough numbers to split the world between the multihull culture and the beach cat culture, both cultures were driven by the demand for increased performance.... For example, the Hobie 14.... was then upgraded.... to bigger faster.... the Hobie 16.... and then of course... the bigger faster Hobie 18, all the way up to the Hobie 21. The core marketing principle was ... you need bigger and faster... The IYRU classes like the A class epitomize the drive for faster as a core principle with continual inovation and boats are continually getting faster in the class.. The Tornado class pushed the envelope for more speed under their class rules untill their last gasp to remain Olympic by locking down into a strict one design. The long serving US chair of the Portsmouth Committee, asked me (20 years ago)... What is it about you catamaran sailors.... you are ALWAYS adding something to your one design boat and forcing me to add another class entry or manage a ratings adjuster....my monohull sailors don't do this.! It makes establishing yardsticks very very difficult... My answer 20 years ago... was....Our core motivation is the need for speed on the water..

 

I prefer to be positive about resurrecting the sailing industry with more affordable, more accessible products,

Well.... our niche of the sport... IE RACERS has never worried about that...

 

Builders of course MUST stay in front of the trend. Builders like HOBIE take a look at the marketplace and conclude... Nope... for us... High performance Racers are not viable.... our niche will be to build plastic boats (like the wave and getaway) and follow/lead that trend....(the crush the kayack and peddle kayack market) and have put the company brand back together world wide. They see their role as... one day some day... these wave/getaway sailors will get the racing bug and move to whatever high performance class still exists. From our point of view... the recreational customers have no need for a class organization or racing.. .. what they need is customer support and that is what Hobie does.

 

The other builders are ALSO following leading the trend... Faster... Always Faster... Ranting about the marketing of these builders won't change the fundamentals, the long sweep of mulithull history is for high performance.

 

The A class could well be flying by the worlds .... the Phantom is certainly flying...... F18 foils are truly impressive these days..... The N17s could add T foils and j boards after the quad.... our core trend continues... Faster... always Faster...

 

IMO, the key to success is to have High Quality events that people want to do. Racers are event driven these days and manage their time accordingly.

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Wow! That price isn't exactly small change for a 2 man, 18' cat. I make that US$44,000 and AU$48,000 before shipping and local taxes (maybe there are euro taxes to take off). All told, that's well north of US$45,000 and AU$50,000 landed (based on bringing A's into Oz, I would guess at AU$53-55K). Isn't that basically double the cost of an F18? Fantastic boat, but is that price realistic?

I was guessing 50-60K delivered in SF so 40-45K is not to bad. Keep in mind the J/70 will run you nearly 45-50K and this Phantom looks like far more fun!

 

I'd love to snag a ride on one in SF!

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The vast majority of the 'sailing community' wouldn't buy anything. The 'sailing community' is far too diverse for there to ever be 'a majority' of anything.

 

 

 

 

. I wouldn't buy one and the vast majority of the sailing community wouldn't either.

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Hi Macca,

 

I think we have to accept Chris O has a very warped opinion of what the market requires to stimulate growth in sailing and particular catamaran sailing..........youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there.....SI has set the mark....and given our commercial position we are fully aware of how foiling is driving the market and aspirations forward......just look at the facts of AC, A class, FP project, foiling Nacra F20 C, foiling Eagle 20, etc, etc....surely it is difficult to argue with the combined market teams and cutting edge sailors about the validity of the move to foiling.....

 

I don't agree with the way CO says a lot of the things he says. But are you sure that the substance of his argument is so wrong? There seems to be very little evidence of a massive shift to high performance boats and watersports that are doing well are getting into simpler stuff. Here in Oz, for example, at national title level the growth area seems to be more in the medium-pace "amateur" classes and the slow International singlehanders, not in high performance classes.

 

If the "youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there" then why are they racing lots of Optis, Toppers, Radials etc but so few foilers? Why are there (last time I checked) more youth here racing Radials and Sabres (a slow singlehander like a Solo) than fast singlehanded dinghies, kites, boards and foilers?

 

Sure, some sectors of the industry are pushing high performance boats - but a lot of the industry seem to be ignoring the move to foiling and high performance. Why should we believe that the guys behind the Eagle 20 etc are right and Beneteau, Hobie, Laser USA, and other builders of conventional craft are wrong?

 

What's with all these "false dichotomy" arguments that the multihull forum seems to get bogged down in.

 

Some companies are trying to sell foiling multihulls. They are small operations and would be happy with enough sales to cover their costs plus a modest profit. I say good luck to them and I hope they succeed.

 

None of this has anything to do with mass produced monohulls. Different manufacturers and different customers.

 

How about all the posters who have no interest in the Flying Phantom find something that does interest them and start posting about it.

 

It's not a false dichotomy - it's people addressing specific claims that certain types and trends are the future of the whole sport, and similar claims that imply that there are no different customers.

 

The FP site claims (as noted above) that foiling cats are THE future of the sport - not just a future for "different manufacturers and different customers". The poster I was replying to said that "youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there" He didn't say that SOME of the youngest aspire to fast boats. He said that " foiling is driving the market and aspirations forward", not that foiling is driving SOME of the market and aspirations.

 

If marketers said that "foiling cats are the future of SOME areas of the sport", or that "SOME of the youngest aspire to the fastest sexiest boats out there" or that "foiing is driving SOME of the market" then some of us would have no issues with their claims. But to the extent that their claims are over-stated surely it's reasonable to respond to them.

 

The FP looks cool. I'm not hoping that if flops. All I'm hoping for is that people who are pushing such boats have enough respect for the tastes of other sailors to accept that foiling cats are not THE future, but just one of many different valid futures. And if they are going to use hyperbole and marketingspeak then they have to expect people to use hyperbole in response.

 

Do you rail against all hyperbolic marketing like this? Crap I would hate to be near you when reading a mag or watching TV!

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Chris, you really should leave the positive people to get on with it.

 

 

By that I guess you mean the "positive people" who said that swinging keels and CBTF were the future of our sport and that the technology would sweep the sailing world by storm?

 

so your entire bitter attitude has been determined by one mentally challenged dude's obsession with foils? 'cause i remember the day CBTF was first announced, and I don't remember a lot of folks saying it was 'the future of the sport'. I do remember calling it something like 'the future of ultra-high performance offshore boats', which it is has turned out to almost exactly approximate. Well, the canting part, anyway. CBTF folks got a bit too married to their patent and got designed around.

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I find that people who like to shoot holes in others efforts to create things are just speed bumps in life. To think that in just the last 30yrs that building a light production keel boat with a layup never really done before in production boats ie the U20 and first Vipers in 1993-94 time frame fast forward to now where we have foiling moths and foiling Multi Hulls that can hit 30knots is pretty fucking amazing. Given in the early 90's the J/24 was still viewed as sort of the sporty production boat.

 

The good news is fiberglass boats last a long time so for those people who complain about cost of new boats or the designs of the new boats there are still plenty of older quite good designs out there with various combinations of comfort / speed etc to fit just about anyone's interest. Hell I think the Phantom is freaking cool as hell, yet I really like the Com-pac Suncat 17 too for the idea of just a fast tip the rig, splash, and go putt around with a nice glass of wine or a good book kicking back enjoying the cruise on a pretty salty looking little boat.

 

The Berkeley Circle in SF screams Phantom to me. Flat water for the most part and good breeze with lots of space to really let it rip! What wouldn't be fun about that?

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If I had $40k to spend on a sailboat I wouldn't be spending it on this.

I checked on A class a little while back and could get the best of everything for $30k new so for say $20k you could get a competitive s/h boat.

However for $40k I would be going to a S/H 30 ft cat and think about converting to foils.

For OTB, what does a good S/H F18 cost?

 

A two year old F18 is about $16k in the U.S, but the market is well saturated at the moment.

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flat water in the berkeley circle. I'd give it a go, but maybe a better ride south of the bay bridge.

 

14 Pitchpole

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If I had $40k to spend on a sailboat I wouldn't be spending it on this.

I checked on A class a little while back and could get the best of everything for $30k new so for say $20k you could get a competitive s/h boat.

However for $40k I would be going to a S/H 30 ft cat and think about converting to foils.

For OTB, what does a good S/H F18 cost?

A two year old F18 is about $16k in the U.S, but the market is well saturated at the moment.

Ok so if into OTB the obvious answer would be a good S/H F18 and spend the rest of the $40k on campaigning it.

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Wow! That price isn't exactly small change for a 2 man, 18' cat. I make that US$44,000 and AU$48,000 before shipping and local taxes (maybe there are euro taxes to take off). All told, that's well north of US$45,000 and AU$50,000 landed (based on bringing A's into Oz, I would guess at AU$53-55K). Isn't that basically double the cost of an F18? Fantastic boat, but is that price realistic?

I was guessing 50-60K delivered in SF so 40-45K is not to bad. Keep in mind the J/70 will run you nearly 45-50K and this Phantom looks like far more fun!

 

I'd love to snag a ride on one in SF!

Looks like a very weird comparison but I don't know what a J/70 is. Assuming it is a monohull sports boat like a melges 24 or such, then this is the weirdest comparison.

Simon correctly asks is it worth double the price of an F18?

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Chris O.... Do you have the same reaction to all Marketing campaigns...?

 

I think you err in interpreting trends in the larger world of sailing with the sweep of history created by a subset of sailors sailing twin hulled boats.

 

My sense of the sweep of multihull history is that the pursuit of High Performance is the one constant of our niche and that Multihull sailors are wired slightly differently then most of the monohull sailors. We are not fixated on the number of hulls.... we are driven by the performance on the water.. The sweep of history has been one of one high performance class giving way to another high performance class. In our hey day.... When culture and demographics exploded interest in sailing... we had enough numbers to split the world between the multihull culture and the beach cat culture, both cultures were driven by the demand for increased performance.... For example, the Hobie 14.... was then upgraded.... to bigger faster.... the Hobie 16.... and then of course... the bigger faster Hobie 18, all the way up to the Hobie 21. The core marketing principle was ... you need bigger and faster... The IYRU classes like the A class epitomize the drive for faster as a core principle with continual inovation and boats are continually getting faster in the class.. The Tornado class pushed the envelope for more speed under their class rules untill their last gasp to remain Olympic by locking down into a strict one design. The long serving US chair of the Portsmouth Committee, asked me (20 years ago)... What is it about you catamaran sailors.... you are ALWAYS adding something to your one design boat and forcing me to add another class entry or manage a ratings adjuster....my monohull sailors don't do this.! It makes establishing yardsticks very very difficult... My answer 20 years ago... was....Our core motivation is the need for speed on the water..

 

 

I prefer to be positive about resurrecting the sailing industry with more affordable, more accessible products,

Well.... our niche of the sport... IE RACERS has never worried about that...

 

Builders of course MUST stay in front of the trend. Builders like HOBIE take a look at the marketplace and conclude... Nope... for us... High performance Racers are not viable.... our niche will be to build plastic boats (like the wave and getaway) and follow/lead that trend....(the crush the kayack and peddle kayack market) and have put the company brand back together world wide. They see their role as... one day some day... these wave/getaway sailors will get the racing bug and move to whatever high performance class still exists. From our point of view... the recreational customers have no need for a class organization or racing.. .. what they need is customer support and that is what Hobie does.

 

The other builders are ALSO following leading the trend... Faster... Always Faster... Ranting about the marketing of these builders won't change the fundamentals, the long sweep of mulithull history is for high performance.

 

The A class could well be flying by the worlds .... the Phantom is certainly flying...... F18 foils are truly impressive these days..... The N17s could add T foils and j boards after the quad.... our core trend continues... Faster... always Faster...

 

IMO, the key to success is to have High Quality events that people want to do. Racers are event driven these days and manage their time accordingly.

All true but with one exception, the Hobie 16. Still one-design in the strictest sense, still selling, still the biggest multihull class.

The Laser equivalent in Multihulls.

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Chris, you really should leave the positive people to get on with it.

 

 

By that I guess you mean the "positive people" who said that swinging keels and CBTF were the future of our sport and that the technology would sweep the sailing world by storm?

so your entire bitter attitude has been determined by one mentally challenged dude's obsession with foils? 'cause i remember the day CBTF was first announced, and I don't remember a lot of folks saying it was 'the future of the sport'. I do remember calling it something like 'the future of ultra-high performance offshore boats', which it is has turned out to almost exactly approximate. Well, the canting part, anyway. CBTF folks got a bit too married to their patent and got designed around.

What is CBTF?

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exactly.

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Chris, you really should leave the positive people to get on with it.

 

By that I guess you mean the "positive people" who said that swinging keels and CBTF were the future of our sport and that the technology would sweep the sailing world by storm?

so your entire bitter attitude has been determined by one mentally challenged dude's obsession with foils? 'cause i remember the day CBTF was first announced, and I don't remember a lot of folks saying it was 'the future of the sport'. I do remember calling it something like 'the future of ultra-high performance offshore boats', which it is has turned out to almost exactly approximate. Well, the canting part, anyway. CBTF folks got a bit too married to their patent and got designed around.

What is CBTF?

 

I wonder who the fuck the "mentally challenged dude who is obcessed with foils" is? Funny the crap you read around here......especially in terms of the "mentally challenged".

-----------------

CBTF is Canting Ballast Twin Foil and was a canting keel system that used two rudders ,one forward and one aft. They could both turn the same direction for upwind optimization or opposite directions for steering. Because the rudders could zero out leeway, the canting keel strut was shorter chord and thicker than most other canting keels because it was not designed to develop lateral resistance. The twin rudders provided all the lateral resistance in addition to steering.

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Chris, you really should leave the positive people to get on with it.

 

By that I guess you mean the "positive people" who said that swinging keels and CBTF were the future of our sport and that the technology would sweep the sailing world by storm?

so your entire bitter attitude has been determined by one mentally challenged dude's obsession with foils? 'cause i remember the day CBTF was first announced, and I don't remember a lot of folks saying it was 'the future of the sport'. I do remember calling it something like 'the future of ultra-high performance offshore boats', which it is has turned out to almost exactly approximate. Well, the canting part, anyway. CBTF folks got a bit too married to their patent and got designed around.

What is CBTF?

 

I wonder who the fuck the "mentally challenged dude who is obcessed with foils" is? Funny the crap you read around here......especially in terms of the "mentally challenged".

-----------------

CBTF is Canting Ballast Twin Foil and was a canting keel system that used two rudders ,one forward and one aft. They could both turn the same direction for upwind optimization or opposite directions for steering. Because the rudders could zero out leeway, the canting keel strut was shorter chord and thicker than most other canting keels because it was not designed to develop lateral resistance. The twin rudders provided all the lateral resistance in addition to steering.

Thanks Doug.

As I keep saying, personal abuse says more about the abuser than the abusee. You and I are both abusees, probably because we take the trouble to speak our minds, and isn't that what SA is all about.

When you say 'foils are the future' you are quoting Spithill yet you get the abuse and Spithill gets nothing but praise.

Keep up the informative work Doug.

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Thanks, Paul. Abuse from ignorant jackasses means nothing-fools tilting at windmills. I could care less. The Revolution I predicted years ago is happening for all to see-it's very cool!

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If I had $40k to spend on a sailboat I wouldn't be spending it on this.

I checked on A class a little while back and could get the best of everything for $30k new so for say $20k you could get a competitive s/h boat.

However for $40k I would be going to a S/H 30 ft cat and think about converting to foils.

For OTB, what does a good S/H F18 cost?

 

A two year old F18 is about $16k in the U.S, but the market is well saturated at the moment.

Does the F18 foil? Last I checked it didn't. A person could compare a Laser to a Moth and more or less have the same type of price argument.

 

Does price matter? To some extent yes I'm not going to build a AC 45 but a Phantom for 44K why not? If all I wanted to do was race catamarans and wanted cheap? Hell I can find a Hobie 16 for $1800 and go race and have fun for almost what I would have tied up in a dry suit and some nice personal foulie gear.

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If I had $40k to spend on a sailboat I wouldn't be spending it on this.

I checked on A class a little while back and could get the best of everything for $30k new so for say $20k you could get a competitive s/h boat.

However for $40k I would be going to a S/H 30 ft cat and think about converting to foils.

For OTB, what does a good S/H F18 cost?

A two year old F18 is about $16k in the U.S, but the market is well saturated at the moment.

Ok so if into OTB the obvious answer would be a good S/H F18 and spend the rest of the $40k on campaigning it.

Hell if I had a foiling Phantom that could do 30 knots I wouldn't need to campaign it. Just going out for a fun spin around the Bay for kicks would be plenty fun. Who spends 40+K on a boat to do that? Hell there are far far more people who spend far more on sports cars that are used to drive to Church on the weekend and nothing else. Who cares how someone uses something its their money and as long as they enjoy it what does it matter?

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Chris O.... Do you have the same reaction to all Marketing campaigns...?

 

No, actually, I do not. It depends on the product, the tone and the net effect. I used to do marketing campaign material (video/film) and know all about the why and the wherefore of the business. I'm only partially bugged by the marketing of this boat, but not in a way that would deny them the right to go about their business. The comments are now and always have been about the efficacy of the need for such a product at this moment in time. I'd suggest that you are assuming something for which there is no serious objection when you identify my comments as a reaction to the marketing.

 

 

I think you err in interpreting trends in the larger world of sailing with the sweep of history created by a subset of sailors sailing twin hulled boats.

 

 

I get all that, Tcat. I've been sailing multihulls since I got back from the military back in '71. Again, I encourage SI to go about the business as they see it and wish them a satisfactory result. It's a no harm no foul ideology and I've taken pains to iterate that fact many times on these pages.

 

I just think it's the wrong boat at the wrong time. Kinda strikes me this way: We see a guy drive up in front of an absolute dump of a home in a spectacular, pearlescent Chrysler 300 with 22's and a sound system that shakes the clapboards off the house next door. Sailing is seriously hurting. Clean and Scott published a very frank article on the Front Page regarding the business death of a major boatbuilder in NZ... that's the shitty home. They also ran a few articles about the FP... which is the pimped-out Chrysler. That's the summation and easily obtainable data on the industry spiral supports my opinion.

 

You don't have to agree with me. In fact, I really don't care if you agree at all. But you can't say that the topic wasn't addressed as you watch other major boatbuilding companies take a nosedive. If we let that process go too far, it can take some serious cash to get it all back on its feet and while we fiddle with that, more folks are going to walk away and not come back. I, personally, feel it's worth the effort to produce products that have a larger degree of availability to a larger audience of participants at a price point that doesn't force the folks doing the lusting to hammer their bank accounts for long periods of time. Right now, I feel that our reach is very seriously exceeding our grasp.

 

 

Well.... our niche of the sport... IE RACERS has never worried about that...

 

 

Builders of course MUST stay in front of the trend.

 

I get the viewpoint of the racer, but racing interests have always been a very, very small niche of a greater pool of recreational enthusiasts and in a crappy economy, with diminishing numbers of end users of all economic strata, it is a really big risk to pound-out a boat that is going to hose the buyer for 50 Large for what is, essentially, a beach cat.

 

I do not believe that builders always need to be out front of a trend. There's a prudent time to drop back and punt and if one is going to produce fresh product, then pragmatism would show one that a simpler, less spendy, more accessible product is the one that wins the hearts and minds of economically shattered participants, as well as produce cash flow with legs. That teensy little racer niche of which you spoke... how much of a corporation's profit margin do you suppose is involved compared to a spread of lesser cost offerings that speak to a much, much larger audience?

 

Yes, SI is a company that pretty much only produces racing boats and there is a philosophy for that kind of company that they have to produce stuff that hits the front edge of the overall awareness in the trade, or they lose their edge to other shops. Yeah, I get that. But, I also wonder what wonderful solutions Alex might create, should he turn his attention to a brand of machines that address the philosophy I have shared regarding affordable boats for younger sailors. Interesting, right?

 

I'm not out to kill anybody's parade here. These guys should continue to motor on in the direction they see fit. I have a different take on the process, as I'm looking at the thing as a global impact on the sport overall and my positions needed to be shared here. You can tell from the way some folks have gotten all backed-up on the suggestions that they have vulnerability on the issues. All sorts of ad hominem crank, off target snap calls, ugly innuendo... the whole works. It shows that there's little confidence out there and that sub-consciously, my points have hit a tender place.

 

I am enjoying the conversation, though.

.

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Do you rail against all hyperbolic marketing like this? Crap I would hate to be near you when reading a mag or watching TV!

 

The issue here is that some people seem to only accept one-way hyperbole.

 

if you are going to use hyperbole in marketing, surely you have to accept people to use hyperbole in their response to that marketing and product.

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The vast majority of the 'sailing community' wouldn't buy anything. The 'sailing community' is far too diverse for there to ever be 'a majority' of anything.

 

Interestingly enough, Alan... as soon as you define a niche in the playground, as you are looking to do with the discussion on this thread, you have immediately also defined the rest of the broader market as the vast majority. You can't escape it and you have nicely made my argument.

 

Thanks

.

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so your entire bitter attitude has been determined by one mentally challenged dude's obsession with foils? 'cause i remember the day CBTF was first announced, and I don't remember a lot of folks saying it was 'the future of the sport'. I do remember calling it something like 'the future of ultra-high performance offshore boats', which it is has turned out to almost exactly approximate. Well, the canting part, anyway. CBTF folks got a bit too married to their patent and got designed around.

 

 

I love that reference... "bitter attitude". It has such panache.

 

There were plenty of references to CBTF as a future of sailing boats. Many even predicted that the technology would be incorporated on all sorts of monohull designs as the latest and greatest. All those who did not object to that became part of the problem through passive acknowledgement. As you say, or more precisely, as you suggest, it was a major flop by comparison. Who actually used it on their boat...? Wasn't it the Schock 40 with that system and everyone else ran for the hills when it tanked?

 

Again, thanks for supporting my argument.

.

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so your entire bitter attitude has been determined by one mentally challenged dude's obsession with foils? 'cause i remember the day CBTF was first announced, and I don't remember a lot of folks saying it was 'the future of the sport'. I do remember calling it something like 'the future of ultra-high performance offshore boats', which it is has turned out to almost exactly approximate. Well, the canting part, anyway. CBTF folks got a bit too married to their patent and got designed around.

 

 

I love that reference... "bitter attitude". It has such panache.

 

There were plenty of references to CBTF as a future of sailing boats. Many even predicted that the technology would be incorporated on all sorts of monohull designs as the latest and greatest. All those who did not object to that became part of the problem through passive acknowledgement. As you say, or more precisely, as you suggest, it was a major flop by comparison. Who actually used it on their boat...? Wasn't it the Schock 40 with that system and everyone else ran for the hills when it tanked?

 

Again, thanks for supporting my argument.

.

 

"There were plenty of people" and "Many even predicted" sounds like "They" and I don't know who "They" is. I know Doug said that plenty of times, but I don't remember this army of CBTF acolytes chasing out the conventional keelboat designers with pitchforks that you do.

 

CBTF turned out to be pretty good but slower and more complicated than dual daggerboards , which were a solution designed to get around the CBTF patent. I don't understand the rest of whatever it is you are laboring to say. CBTF might have been faster or it might not have - the lack of CBTF development that resulted from the widespread adoption of unpatented canting + asym daggers make it hard to ever know.

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The vast majority of the 'sailing community' wouldn't buy anything. The 'sailing community' is far too diverse for there to ever be 'a majority' of anything.

 

 

 

 

. I wouldn't buy one and the vast majority of the sailing community wouldn't either.

Well put Clean, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head.

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The merchants of negativity are maybe providing a good service here. If too many companies start building carbon fibre cats with foils, there won't be much class racing going on with them anywhere, so it'll be a good thing if most of them can be put off now. It also means the sales for each company will be tiny and they'll have nothing to show for it beyond a nice toy at the top of their range which hardly anyone ever buys, while most of the few buyers will be doomed to race in handicap fleets and never know who really won anything.

 

What I want to see is one class take off and for it to be the one with the biggest potential for sales. 20ft boats are too big for my liking, and the F20C has a reputation for tearing your arms off. They also take up a lot of space in dinghy parks and are awkward to transport and to launch. I want sailing to be fast and fun, but it isn't all down to having the fastest boat, because what matters much more is how fast the boat is relative to its size and how good it feels to sail and race. I don't want to have to put on an unhealthy amount of weight to sail something designed for giants, and it may be that the FP is also a bit too big for me and the person I would be sailing it with. A 16ft carbon fibre foiling cat might be the optimum size (with a choice of rigs available for different weights of crew), and that could help to get the costs down just enough to swing the market its way even if it's late to the party. (Just by making it narrower they could make it greatly more practical - there are plenty of ways of getting your weight further out the side to keep it upright.) There may also be significant developments with the foils which will lead to them needing to be replaced not too far down the track because the speed gains are too great for the class to stay shackled to the original design while newer classes costing less money outperform them. So, I'm not keen to rush into buying one of these things until it becomes a bit clearer where things are going to go, but I certainly will be buying something of this kind before long. Whether it's an FP remains to be seen.

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I'd disagree. the idea of a 20' tight box rule (ala F18, Int 14, 12s,moths, ICs, etc) makes more sense. If you go to OD now, you box in technology that is changing too fast. A year ago, pre Am Cup foils, people thought you needed Moth type foils. Now it's all J foils, or whatever they're called. Tomorrow, who knows?

Go strictly OD and people either get stuck on a design and then chase the next best thing, or they never step up knowing they will shortly be beat by the next best thing.

 

Get a rule in place, designers can then go nuts. It will take awhile to solidify, but this way you'd get a better feel for what really works, in a quick fashion.

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I'd disagree. the idea of a 20' tight box rule (ala F18, Int 14, 12s,moths, ICs, etc) makes more sense. If you go to OD now, you box in technology that is changing too fast. A year ago, pre Am Cup foils, people thought you needed Moth type foils. Now it's all J foils, or whatever they're called. Tomorrow, who knows?

 

Go strictly OD and people either get stuck on a design and then chase the next best thing, or they never step up knowing they will shortly be beat by the next best thing.

 

Get a rule in place, designers can then go nuts. It will take awhile to solidify, but this way you'd get a better feel for what really works, in a quick fashion.

+1

 

Does it need to be 20'? How about F18f?

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The idea of a box rule seems to me to be the best way to go to give this "revolution" some hope of growing into some sort of decent fleet racing. However, I personally don't think length has anything to do with what should restrict these boats because once on foils, length doesn't have a big impact on performance. What really counts with foilers is power to weight. I would write a rule that defined beam, sail area, rig height and weight. Maybe there would be some general rules regarding foils, but this might not be needed. I think with that sort of box, boats of differing lengths could compete on equal terms, or at least as equal as the other design decisions allow.

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I think you're right. I was only thinking 20 as that seems to be where manufacturers are putting their wares. What it will take however, is a committed group of sailors to get together and hash it out. These things seem to develop locally and expand. Are there hotbeds of foiling? Hell, is there any place where there's more than a couple of these beasts?

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The idea of a box rule seems to me to be the best way to go to give this "revolution" some hope of growing into some sort of decent fleet racing. However, I personally don't think length has anything to do with what should restrict these boats because once on foils, length doesn't have a big impact on performance. What really counts with foilers is power to weight. I would write a rule that defined beam, sail area, rig height and weight. Maybe there would be some general rules regarding foils, but this might not be needed. I think with that sort of box, boats of differing lengths could compete on equal terms, or at least as equal as the other design decisions allow.

 

With the costs and skills required to make modern foils and to design and work out a boat I don't think there is a chance in hell of a box rule catamaran being developed. Why not a "jointly developed" one design combining the best features including:

1) retractable foils,

2) simple and easy to use foil rake system, no foil canting(to reduce complication and save money), rudder rake adjustable but not while sailing,

3) perhaps lightweight crew rig and heavy weight crew rig,

4) beach sailable,

5) 16' LOA, 12' beam with foldable 2' racks , 8' hull beam(idea is to give close to 10' righting arm from center of lift of lee foil to outer most part of windward rack.(approx. 13' righting arm to CG of crew-same as Phantom)

6) Twin trapezes

7) epoxy-glass hull construction, carbon cross tubes and carbon wing mast, carbon foils.

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you really don't understand this stuff, do you?

 

Why not a jointly developed? Cause in less than one year, someone will develop a better widget, and that OD, unless it caught on wildly, will die.

 

You do know that the F18s are box rules, no?

 

The best way to meet those needs you set out above are to let folks innovate, and if you want to race, the answer is a box rule.

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Does anybody have a copy of the old B class catamaran rules? All I could find was max length 20', max beam 10', max sail area 235 sq ft, min weight 155kg.

 

This wouldn't be too far away from the current boats.

 

I know that the A and C classes don't have a minimum length. I presume this was true for the B class as well, so an 18 foot long Flying Phantom satisfies the length rule for the B class.

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you really don't understand this stuff, do you?

 

Why not a jointly developed? Cause in less than one year, someone will develop a better widget, and that OD, unless it caught on wildly, will die.

 

You do know that the F18s are box rules, no?

 

The best way to meet those needs you set out above are to let folks innovate, and if you want to race, the answer is a box rule.

 

The idea is to do a state of the art foiler and eliminate the development costs of these new foils and foil systems. The complexity of the development of this type of boat costs big bucks-far more than an F18 type cat. A box rule foiler would be extremely costly from a design and development perspective and those costs would be passed on. A one-design eliminates all that and a one design could allow relatively low cost foiling and unbeatable racing.

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and the next fancy foil set would obsolete the class.

 

You think Moths are all blade riders?

 

I14s are all designed by Uffa (hint, no, they aren't, new ones are likely on drawing boards today)?

 

Unless you have a deep-pocket manufacturer who can crank out hundreds and get people hooked, you're doomed.

 

Also - your rules could be much simpler. Ala B class rules, and don't restrict horizontal foils.

 

Maybe, just maybe you could get an olympic class design submitted and accepted, in that case you'd have a captive audience for a quadrennial.

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I considered suggesting the B class rule, but I have a few issues with it. First, I think the minimum weight is too high. I also suspect the sail area is a bit small and doesn't allow for a kite. I also believe that having any mention of length is negative, because people focus on that too much and people will exclude themselves because of their perception of length being an issue. Maybe this should become a new thread.....

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you really don't understand this stuff, do you?

 

Why not a jointly developed? Cause in less than one year, someone will develop a better widget, and that OD, unless it caught on wildly, will die.