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Raz'r

Flying Phantom

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Looking forward to seeing how far ahead of the non foilers the FP will finish in Carnac this weekend... Saw the boat in the flesh in France last week and got a tour from Alex Udin, seriously refined and well thought out product, going to be bloody exciting when they get some one design regattas going with 20+ boats on the start line...

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From the Phantom International Newsletter:

 

Two times Olympic Gold Medalists and members of the Red Bull Sailing Team (Extreme 40) , Roman Hagara and Hans Peter Steinacher came to Brittany, St Lunaire, birthplace of Phantom International, for two days of epic sailing.

The 2 world-renowned sailors and Red Bull Youth America’s Cup Sport Directors enjoyed both sportive conditions with a strong off shore breeze and gusts of up to 25 knots on the first day followed by calmer weather with moderate sea on the second day, which still gave them the chance of experiencing high speed foiling.

Roman Hagara and Hans Peter Steinacher were delighted to experience first hand the first foiling production catamaran, which gave them unique and new sensations as well as giving them the opportunity to sail on one of France’s most beautiful bay in Brittany. The Austrian duo was able to start flying at 6.5 knots winds and triple the wind speed, just after a few minutes onboard, the Flying Phantom is capable of fully foiling above water in a very steady manner even in moderate sea.

From May 1 to 4 Hagara/Steinacher will participate with their Extreme 40 Catamaran at Act 3 of the Extreme Sailing Series in China’s Qingdao. “The Flying Phantom test session was a perfect training for the upcoming Extreme Sailing Series Event in China next week. Our goal is to finish on the podium in Qingdao”, said Red Bull Sailing Skipper Roman Hagara.

With 40 boats all ready sold to customers all around the world, Phantom International is looking forwards to welcome other sailing stars during the next few weeks whilst preparing for their next big event the Eurocat Long Distance Race in Carnac, France.

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The Flying Phantom wins the Eurocat raid with huge advance

 

 

http://www.ouest-france.fr/voile-eurocat-le-duo-bontemps-amiot-survole-le-raid-de-houat-2518699

I think you will find it took line honours, but when I checked the elapsed time it didn't appear to win overall on handicap......I may be wrong though......also results are subject to protests

They were only two in the prototype class C0, so I don't think it matters.

Real time (first of each category):

- Flying Phantom: 2h05

- F18: 2h 26

- C1: 2h 35

- C3: 2h 26

 

Arriving 20 minutes in advance in a 2h race is quite a lot and I think we can expect foilers to do better soon.

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Looks impressive at the first glance.

If you don't know anything about the race (e.g. tactics within a fleet of F18 in case they were matchracing eachother) you should not discuss this serious.

Does the F20C (not FCS) have joined as well? results?

 

have fun and go sailing :D

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from the Phantom International newsletter:

 

THE FLYING PHANTOM BREAKS EUROCAT’S LONG DISTANCE RACE RECORD

 

http://www.phantom-international.com/2014/05/the-flying-phantom-breaks-eurocats-long-distance-race-record/

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Looks impressive at the first glance.

If you don't know anything about the race (e.g. tactics within a fleet of F18 in case they were matchracing eachother) you should not discuss this serious.

Does the F20C (not FCS) have joined as well? results?

 

have fun and go sailing :D

No production boats faster than an F18/F16 at Eurocat......no F20, no Tornados, no Marstrom 20's.....

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It would be interesting to see how it would preform against similar sized boats in around the buoys race.

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Looks pretty stable - quick of course. Upwind, why doesn't the crew trim main?

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Because he is busy trimming the foils and the downhaul, at least initially.

 

F18 owner, carbonoligist, available for crew. Rumour has it 8-10 Nacra FCS upgrade kits have been sold in the U.S...

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Because he is busy trimming the foils and the downhaul, at least initially.

 

F18 owner, carbonoligist, available for crew. Rumour has it 8-10 Nacra FCS upgrade kits have been sold in the U.S...

 

No foil trim once full speed, the last part where the crew is more at ease, they are downwind towards the finish, with helm trimming traveler,

upwind in the first part the crew is working the mainsheet quite a bit.

 

Check Nathan's video later in the day, it flies in auto mode mostly.

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Doesn't it though!

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That Outteridge video almost makes it look too easy.

 

It's easy as its looks in Nathan' video, and in those specific conditions any kid that knows how to helm good on an SL16 can do it in 5 mins... more material coming on this regard.

 

With more wind and or waves you need to work more , for racing the same, & you need experience to make the vmg work.

As evident in the Long Distance vid. But those were really tricky conditions with unsteady wind plus high chop/waves.

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From the Phantom International newsletter:

Flashback with Gurvan Bontemps and Benjamin Amiot

How did you prepare for this epic race?
G.B. “We have a broad track record of long distance races with Benjamin with races such as the Round Corsica event or the Martinique Cata Raid and we also competed a few years ago in the Bol d’Or on an M2 catamaran. With the Flying Phantom we had only raced the Eurocat long distance and earlier this week the Geneva-Rolle-Geneva so our main objective was to perform and finish at any cost. From a safety point of view, we took all the boat equipment required for this type of race including: flares, flashlight, lights, paddle, phone … moreover Alex was following us with the Goldfish 28’ tender so everything was done to ensure our safety around the lake.”

Tell us about the race
B.A. “One of the priorities was to do this race without hampering the other boats sailing in the Bol d’Or. Prior to the start at 10:00 am, we positioned the boat next to the SNG outside of the start area. We started as soon as the first D35s came up level with us. For the upwind leg we alternated between the French and Swiss side, after leaving the small lake we were close to the M2 fleet with almost identical performances in terms of speed and VMG in around 15 knots of wind. We continued to follow the Swiss coast up to Lausanne alternating between patchy zones with calms and gusts, we stayed a little bit too long in this area, but we then started a reaching leg in flying mode with or without the gennaker until Le Bouveret. We passed the mark after 2 or 3 M2s and headed back to Geneva following a curved line between the French and the Swiss coasts with a long starboard reaching section right up to entering the small lake. Approaching the finish line the wind became much stronger around 25 knots and under gennaker we overtook the last M2s to finish just after the M2 TeamWork and the Hydros.ch. After more than 6 hours of sailing we were very happy to finish.”

G.B. “It was a fantastic race, intense, requiring a lot of focus due to the conditions. We are very satisfied with the result and being able to race side by side with other multihulls. The Flying Phantom demonstrated today that she is also a boat for this type of race and we were able to demonstrate to our Swiss customers that this is a boat that is perfect for Lake Geneva with the ability to fly. I hope that next year we will be able to line up at the start of the Bol d’Or officially to compete in this wonderful event. Talking about long distance races, we would like other races like Round the Island in the UK or the Tour de Belle Ile in France to open up the event to the Flying Phantom in order to liven up these races.”

The unofficial time for the Flying Phantom recorded on the finishing line by the team was 6 hours and 21 minutes, with a “virtual” position just after Hydros.ch that finished 9th with a time of 06 h 18mins 25 s and ahead of the first M2, GSMN Genolier in 06 h 24 mins 02 s. Skipper Dona Bertarelli, Yann Guichard and the crew of Ladycat powered by Spindrift racing won this 76th with a time of 05 h 38 mins.

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The Round Texel story from one of the Flying Phantom guys(thanks to TC) :

Flashback on the race with Benjamin Amiot:


“The briefing was held this morning at 07:00 am, for a start planned at 09:00am. This early start was due to forecasts that were indicating a wind drop for midday. The start was launched with around 15 knots of wind; very quickly we were ahead of the fleet sailing downwind and flying full speed without gennaker leading the two other flying catamarans sailed by Vink and Heemskerk. Heading North along the Island we kept the lead, with a slight shift as compared to the coast and the head of the fleet. We hoist back the gennaker to finish this leg to the first gate at the North of the Texel Island. We consolidated or lead during the reaching leg on the North part of the Island, it was super fast as the sea was very flat, I think top speeds were around 28 knots. Unfortunately, just before the North-East gate we hit a sand bank damaging the rake system on the port side. It took us some minutes to fix the issue and find a safe way back outside of shallow water. We loose quite some time, and came back on the racecourse at the top of the fleet. Unfortunately, just after the gate at the beginning of the upwind leg we broke the hook of the mainsail leading us to abandon the race.
We are a little bit disappointed, but sailing is a mechanical sport, and we know that it can happen.

We demonstrated today that the Flying Phantom is one of the most efficient foiling catamaran and were very happy to observe that in these conditions we were the fastest boat on water. We are now really looking forward to next year Round the Texel race where we will be able to comeback with a fleet of Flying Phantom”.

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Franck Cammas flys the Zebra Phantom:

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The Zebra flies again with two great cat sailors aboard:

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Looks absolutely awesome and in best of all in control similar to a well sorted moth, any idea what type of numbers they are pulling upwind and down?

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As things stand at the moment, which one is faster, Flying Phantom or F20 Carbon FCS?

 

Similarly priced, Nacra a lot more powerful, be interested to know which is the best boat.

 

Is the Nacra faster but harder to sail? Looks more twitchy in the videos or is that just the fact they have had less time on the water?

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EXCITING PROSPECTS IN 2015 FOR THE FLYING PHANTOM

One year ago, the Flying Phantom One Design was presented to the public during the 2013 Paris Boat Show. The success was instantaneous with a unanimous, warm welcome from the press and the sailing community.

Some weeks after the first sailing sessions occurred, the order book started to fill up with orders from customers around the world. In order to face this high demand, Phantom International recalibrated the production capabilities, while ensuring the product matched the high-end requirements, reliability targets and the essential reproducibility for One Design. The Flying Phantom is made using a very high tech process involving carbon pre-preg with Nomex honeycomb sandwich cured at high temperature and then painted with epoxy, so specific industrialization tools are needed to sustain the volume of production and ramp up the capacity from 3 boats per week up to 4 boats per week starting next month.
So far, 60 Flying Phantoms have been ordered, with 30 boats now shipped out of the factory, while the backlog will be resolved by the end of January 2015.

During 2014, the Flying Phantom sailed by Gurvan Bontemps and Benjamin Amiot obtained nice successes on racecourses like the Eurocat or on Lake Geneva. Furthermore, dozens of sailing days were clocked up to ensure ongoing improvements and to optimize racing settings and boat performance. These flying sessions were also an opportunity to share the foiling experience with famous skippers such as François Gabart, Philippe Presti, Loick Peyron, Nathan Outteridge, Franck Cammas, the Red Bull Sailing Team … as well as youth and amateur sailors.

The Flying Phantom Series: the 2015 European Tour
2015 looks exciting; as the Flying Phantom fleet will grow quickly during the first quarter of the year, with the first event of the Flying Phantom Series due to take place in Carnac, France during the Eurocat from the 29th of April to the May 2nd. Prior to the event, Phantom International will organize technical, tutorial and training sessions for Flying Phantom owners to prepare for this first, fantastic event. The race format is being prepared, with the aim of setting up race courses like in the America’s Cup with reaching starts and finishes to guarantee enjoyable racing for the sailors and the spectators. The Flying Phantom fleet will also take part in the long distance race with the clear goal of beating the record set by Gurvan Bontemps and Benjamin Amiot this year.
Following the Eurocat, the fleet will compete in specific events with the same One Design regatta format during Foiling Week and Travemuender Woche, as well as racing in long distance races like the Round Texel, the Raid Emeraude and the Raid des Corsaires.
Phantom International is also in discussions with the Marseille One Design organizers to assess the possibility of joining the event that will be held in Marseille in September 2015.

Main events on the 2015 calendar
April 29th – May 2nd EUROCAT in Carnac, France: FP One Design racecourse & Long distance race
June 6th ROUND TEXEL in Texel, Netherlands: Long distance race
June 8th – 14th in GENEVA, Switzerland: FP One Design racecourse
June 27th – 28th RAID EMERAUDE in St Lunaire, France: Long distance race
July 1st- 5th FOILING WEEK on Lake Garda, Italy: FP One Design racecourse & Long distance race
July 17th-25th TRAVEMUENDER WOCHE in Travemuender, Germany: FP One Design racecourse
September 4th – 6th RAID DES CORSAIRES in St Malo, France: Long distance race


The Phantom Sailing Team
In 2015, the Phantom Sailing Team will be a 2 boat team with Billy Besson – Matthieu Vandame and Gurvan Bontemps – Benjamin Amiot. Both crews will compete in the 2015 regatta season and will foil the Flying Phantom around the world.
Billy, Matthieu, Benjamin and Gurvan are sport catamaran specialists. Billy just won the ISAF World Cup, was twice Olympic catamaran world champion in 2013 and 2014 with his team mate Marie Riou, 2013 Formula 18 World Champion and finished second in the International C-Class Catamaran championship. Matthieu was 2012 Formula 18 World Champion with Olivier Backes on the Sail Innovation Phantom F18 and crewed for famous skippers such as Franck Cammas and François Gabart. He is also pursuing an Olympic campaign with Audrey Ogereau. Gurvan and Benjamin represented the Phantom Sailing Team in 2014, when they started to show what the Flying Phantom could achieve in some multihull regattas. They are also vice 2014 Formula 18 World Champions.

The Red Bull Foiling Generation
From the spring of 2015, the famous energy drink company Red Bull will organize an international circuit for youth sailors between the ages of 16 and 20. This circuit, which has been given the name of the “Red Bull Foiling Generation” will be raced with Flying Phantom catamarans and will include multiple events around the world with one in France. Details concerning race formats and registration procedures will be issued shortly. The “Red Bull Foiling Generation” is a true revolution in the world of sailing as it provides youth sailors with a unique opportunity to step into the world of flying multihulls.

Come and visit us
The next date on the calendar for the Flying Phantom and Phantom International is the Paris Boat Show that will be held at the Porte de Versailles in Paris from December 6th to 14th. Come and visit us and meet the team at booth M49-Hall 1.

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This sounds great. 30 boats already delivered. I remember the days when the first Nacra F20s were delivered. A few days later the first videos were published. Wonder why the proud owners don't show US their beauties.

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From www.catsailingnews.com Phantom Dutch delivery:

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facebook page is pretty active...

 

anyway, this is a pretty cool boat - what i like is how effortless the foiling appears

 

i was interested in the A class, but in the videos at least, they look very unstable.., generally out of control.., and maybe more work than fun - i haven't read all the A class threads.., but i gather the rules in that class are evolving...

 

anyway, i think i read this boat was $40k.., and i guess it's less now that the euro has been crashing

 

seems like a bargain

 

i'd love to see one - i'll be in europe in the summer, but if there are any sailing on the USA east coast, i'd be interested in having a look.

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More rock stable Flying Phantom:

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Could anyone hook me up with someone who has taken delivery of a Flying Phantom in Europe during the last few months? I asked Alex the same question but I really didn't get the answer I was looking for.

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why are the website prices in US $?

 

they are made in europe, right?

 

is there another website with pricing in EUR?

 

EUR is down like 20%since that US$40k number was announced

 

$32K would be pretty interesting

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That would be pretty interesting. Really interesting. Considering the cost of a N17 was north of $29K USD 6 months ago, and the price of a Nacra F20FCS north of $53K.

 

Boats are built in Taiwan though, so I'm not sure if the plummeting Euro helps us U.S sailors out all that much.

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That would be pretty interesting. Really interesting. Considering the cost of a N17 was north of $29K USD 6 months ago, and the price of a Nacra F20FCS north of $53K.

 

Boats are built in Taiwan though, so I'm not sure if the plummeting Euro helps us U.S sailors out all that much.

 

well, if it's built in taiwan, it doesn't help US buyers much..,but it sure as hell hurts european buyers

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That would be pretty interesting. Really interesting. Considering the cost of a N17 was north of $29K USD 6 months ago, and the price of a Nacra F20FCS north of $53K.

 

Boats are built in Taiwan though, so I'm not sure if the plummeting Euro helps us U.S sailors out all that much.

Thailand.

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I just had this great mental image of someone opening a couple of Phantom hull boxes and pulling out the Stbd Hull of a C2 and the port hull of a Cirrus-R

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Question for you cat sailors:

 

Main trim: what do you reckon will be a standard setting for upwind and downwind? I would say the traveler all the way in both up and downwind, possibly with skipper holding main all the way round? Downhaul being used a lot to keep the boat foiling fast?
What do you think?

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Check out the fleet of Phantoms foiling in the Red Bull thread-awesome foiling video........

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Doug,

 

Do you even sail? I don't see "rock stable Flying", I'm even less excited about one coming to town.

 

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Question for you cat sailors:

 

Main trim: what do you reckon will be a standard setting for upwind and downwind? I would say the traveler all the way in both up and downwind, possibly with skipper holding main all the way round? Downhaul being used a lot to keep the boat foiling fast?

What do you think?

There is no way skipper will hold main upwind. That bitch it going to take some major trimming with apparent wind changes and you won't do it fast enough 1.5 handed.

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Doug,

 

Do you even sail? I don't see "rock stable Flying", I'm even less excited about one coming to town.

 

 

 

So one pitchpole and foilers are no good? Are you nuts? Take inexperienced people, train them for two days and turn them loose on a foiling Phantom in 20knots? And you think it's all supposed to be smooth??!! Do you even sail?

 

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Doug,

I don't see "rock stable Flying", I'm even less excited about one coming to town.

 

 

 

You didn't even watch the video in my "rock stable" post 440, did you?

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Doug,

I don't see "rock stable Flying", I'm even less excited about one coming to town.

 

 

 

You didn't even watch the video in my "rock stable" post 440, did you?

 

Yes, I actually saw it months ago and thought that most of us who sail on inland lakes don't have those kind of conditions; smooth water and steady winds. Also, that video is relies heavily on post processing stabilization... Looks really cool, but. Regarding my sailing, yes, I race a cat and a scow.

I've learned through the years from others not to argue with you. As Hatin'life mentioned, though a year late, a Phantom is supposed to come to our town and I hope to go out and at least help tune it, if it ever arrives.

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Doug,

I don't see "rock stable Flying", I'm even less excited about one coming to town.

 

 

 

You didn't even watch the video in my "rock stable" post 440, did you?

 

Yes, I actually saw it months ago and thought that most of us who sail in inland lakes don't have those kind of conditions; smooth water and steady wind. Also, that video is relies heavily on post processing stabilization... Looks really cool, but. Regarding my sailing, yes, I race a cat and a scow.

I've learned through the years from others not to argue with you. As Hatin'life mentioned, though a year late, a Phantom is supposed to come to our town and I hope to go out and at least help tune it, if it ever arrives.

 

 

Your enthusiasm will probably be a real big help to those guys-you've never sailed a foiler and you're going to "help" tune it?! Well, best of luck.....

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You can. See what happens with too much board too much rake and crew too much backward

Its like riding à wild horse

Fun for young athletic sailors but not efficient

Just advance thé crews by 1meter playwith the traveler and you find again steady fly

The autorégulating foil shape makes the job

Really its impressive how that works , stable long flights are for all sailors with mid level skills

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Doug,

 

Although I appreciate your excitement regarding foiling, at 1:36 into your linked video, Hans-Peter Steinacher states; "it's a very, very difficult boat to sail", and coming from a Tornado gold medalist, I believe him. I have a hard time putting "very, very difficult" and "rock stable flying" together in the same sentence, especially on inland lakes. Perhaps you are a better sailor than I am.

 

Also, please don't put words in my mouth as I never said, "foilers are not good". There are other types of foiling, such as air chair and foil boarding that I have done and enjoy.

 

C

 

ps. IMHO, Red Bull picked an interesting boat to follow.

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For sûre to discover a new boat a superfast foiler and have to compete after 2 days of limited training will be difficult

For rookies of only16 20 yo

We saw they could manage an AC45 without problemes

Thé gaps between crews will be huge

That is not the way à private owner begins to play with his new toy

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There seems to by a myth going around, mainly from people who don't sail, that says the Flying Phantom is an easy boat to sail and that it is easy to get stable flight. This is simply not true. Haviong spoken to a fair number of people who have sailed them, mostly from AC teams, it seems that if you have small boat foiling experience (Moth), then the boat is like sailing an armchair. However, for the rest, it is hard and difficult and takes some time to master.

 

I am not saying this as a negative. in fact, i see it as a real positive because if all it had to offer was faster sailing, you can get that in other ways. What these foiling cats give us is a new and more challenging sailing experience.

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just stick a toilet seat on it. he'll be all good.

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From catsailingnews.com---see video in post 418: http://www.catsailingnews.com/2014/05/video-nathan-outteridge-first-ride-on.html#more

 

The first part of video shows Nathan out of the box first helm ride on the Flying Phantom. The second part was shoot at the end of the day, Outteridge sailing with a youth from the RSBC.
The video shows how easy is to foil in those specific conditions, check the end and how he is just cruising. After that ride I got on board to crew for him. Some minutes to adjust and later it was the same relaxed ride, I even left the mainsheet at ease for moments. Once the boats sets in trim, the word to describe the ride is

almost "Auto Flight" mode.

Conditions were around 8-9knots in the afternoon, lots of patches, my ride was with even less wind than the footage above.
The FP starts foiling in the same range when the F18s start to lift one hull with Spi in +6-7knots, that was the feeling I got from the power needed. And we were foiling without Spi. The RSBC kids also got to helm

the boat as Henry did past week, and they were foiling easily in this range of wind.

With more wind early in the day, Nathan worked a little bit harder as more active trim was needed by the helm with the traveler sheet to flat the boat. The feedback I got from him is that the FP has a super smooth ride.

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wow, left the mainsheet at ease for "moments"

 

And this is likely one of the top 10 sailors in the world - of course it's easy for him.

 

I'd be more than happy to give it a go, but I know I'm not taking the wife and kids for a leisurely sail, nor am I launching it off the beach for some bombing around.

 

I think the Phantom is a great boat, again, I wish Doug would stop with the hyper-enthusiasm and try to make the boat something it is not.

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How can I possibly make the boat something its not??!! When experienced sailors say the boat is easy to sail in certain conditions, you'd have to be an idiot to then assume it's easy to sail in every condition. The Phantom is a great boat-the essence of "trickle down" from 34.

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Doug,

 

Although I appreciate your excitement regarding foiling, at 1:36 into your linked video, Hans-Peter Steinacher states; "it's a very, very difficult boat to sail", and coming from a Tornado gold medalist, I believe him. I have a hard time putting "very, very difficult" and "rock stable flying" together in the same sentence, especially on inland lakes. Perhaps you are a better sailor than I am.

 

Also, please don't put words in my mouth as I never said, "foilers are not good". There are other types of foiling, such as air chair and foil boarding that I have done and enjoy.

 

C

 

ps. IMHO, Red Bull picked an interesting boat to follow.

 

C, the problem you have is listening to one set of comments that are a backdrop to tough conditions for a Flying Phantom. It's common sense that the boat will be very difficult to sail in some conditions. But you have other experienced sailors saying it is easy to sail in certain conditions.

Like many other boats........

PS- especially difficult to sail for non-foilers given two days of training then put in a Phantom in the conditions shown in the red bull video. The other video(post 440) shows rock stable foiling in more benign conditions.

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so you're saying it's a one trick pony. Please stop.

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so its easy to sail in some conditions and hard to sail in others. fantastic insight there.

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Doug

 

Thanks for confirming my point. As I said, those who have Moth foiling experience find the boat really easy, those that haven't find the boat really hard. We are finding exactly the same thing with the A Class. If you were to watch Stevie Brewin sailing downhill, you would have thought it was easy and stable. In any proper breeze (say over 8 or 9 knots), he can sail up on foils for miles at a time. Yet the majority of A Class sailors with foilers struggle to fly for more than 100 metres.

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Doug

 

Thanks for confirming my point. As I said, those who have Moth foiling experience find the boat really easy, those that haven't find the boat really hard. We are finding exactly the same thing with the A Class. If you were to watch Stevie Brewin sailing downhill, you would have thought it was easy and stable. In any proper breeze (say over 8 or 9 knots), he can sail up on foils for miles at a time. Yet the majority of A Class sailors with foilers struggle to fly for more than 100 metres.

 

Thats not exactly the case, Simon. Whereas the Moth can be difficult in any condition for some people, The Phantom is easy to foil in the right conditions regardless if you've had any Moth experience or not. I guess you missed that part,huh?!

 

Conditions were around 8-9knots in the afternoon, lots of patches, my ride was with even less wind than the footage above.

The FP starts foiling in the same range when the F18s start to lift one hull with Spi in +6-7knots, that was the feeling I got from the power needed. And we were foiling without Spi. The RSBC kids also got to helm

the boat as Henry did past week, and they were foiling easily in this range of wind.

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Douglas... perhaps it would be really good to consider that your strident desperation to be "one of the guys" has driven you to an even more obtuse use of the graphic tools available as they apply to the type face in the response box. Instead of comfortably trying to enhance your so-called, point... you are actually making it much harder to read your crappy posts with that black background nonsense.

 

I would have assumed that you'd want to drive home your pathetic point by keeping it as simple as possible for the reader. I will give you this; your posting style of overly complicated nonsense is just like the design work you do on your toy boats. Is it any wonder they don't work as hyped?

 

.

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Doug

 

Thanks for confirming my point. As I said, those who have Moth foiling experience find the boat really easy, those that haven't find the boat really hard. We are finding exactly the same thing with the A Class. If you were to watch Stevie Brewin sailing downhill, you would have thought it was easy and stable. In any proper breeze (say over 8 or 9 knots), he can sail up on foils for miles at a time. Yet the majority of A Class sailors with foilers struggle to fly for more than 100 metres.

 

Thats not exactly the case, Simon. Whereas the Moth can be difficult in any condition for some people, The Phantom is easy to foil in the right conditions regardless if you've had any Moth experience or not. I guess you missed that part,huh?!

 

Conditions were around 8-9knots in the afternoon, lots of patches, my ride was with even less wind than the footage above.

The FP starts foiling in the same range when the F18s start to lift one hull with Spi in +6-7knots, that was the feeling I got from the power needed. And we were foiling without Spi. The RSBC kids also got to helm

the boat as Henry did past week, and they were foiling easily in this range of wind.

 

That is correct

I am not an olympic sailor never sailed moth or Aclass

Only got hobby cats and F18 today 61yo and nor the strength and agility I had before..

With 6 10 knots the FP flies by himself just regulating the main and the traveller

With 10 knots your speed is 20 knots so that is a step you have to manage

The extra power due to apparent wind in crease has to be controlled

Downwind with the kite the reduction. Of apparent wind allows to reach 25 30k with 15 20k of wind the steering is the same that a normal cat the angle being much more down

All the people I saw helming the FP for the first time flew in 10 mins in manageable conditions but in tricky conditions you have no other choice than to come back in archimedian mode

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Red on black is almost as good as black on black for a significant minority of Caucasian males. This factoid brought to you by MS Training.

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Doug

 

Thanks for confirming my point. As I said, those who have Moth foiling experience find the boat really easy, those that haven't find the boat really hard. We are finding exactly the same thing with the A Class. If you were to watch Stevie Brewin sailing downhill, you would have thought it was easy and stable. In any proper breeze (say over 8 or 9 knots), he can sail up on foils for miles at a time. Yet the majority of A Class sailors with foilers struggle to fly for more than 100 metres.

 

Thats not exactly the case, Simon. Whereas the Moth can be difficult in any condition for some people, The Phantom is easy to foil in the right conditions regardless if you've had any Moth experience or not. I guess you missed that part,huh?!

 

Conditions were around 8-9knots in the afternoon, lots of patches, my ride was with even less wind than the footage above.

The FP starts foiling in the same range when the F18s start to lift one hull with Spi in +6-7knots, that was the feeling I got from the power needed. And we were foiling without Spi. The RSBC kids also got to helm

the boat as Henry did past week, and they were foiling easily in this range of wind.

 

So yet again you draw huge conclusions from a couple of lines I presume you are also telling me that my friends who have been sailing the Flying Phantoms a lot are lying to me?

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Doug

The FP and the F20 are boats for expert sailors. I have received some pm from a builder asking why I'm remarking this.

After my rides & reports, now on the 2 boats I can confirm that any talented kid currently racing H16 or F16 with an acceptable level can handle both boats in 8knots and flat conditions, on a controlled scenario. As proven by the RBSC kids at Carnac.

And contrary some comments above you don´t need to be Outteridge to sail the FP at ease and almost do nothing for the boat to continue foiling stable, in that same wind range, any grownup catsailor with some racing hours behind can also helm or crew in that range without a problem and super stable.

But beyond that wind speed these are dangerous boats to sail. Last Friday I helmed the F20 in 10 knots perfect flat conditions, and it was scary how high the boat flies upwind, I sailed with the owner who has some hours and plenty of F18 experience and it was a perfect ride for me as a crew & helm, mainly cause I was sailing with him.

Needless to say, I avoided till that day to sail the 20, until I tested it with the right guy. sailed with Fer also, but in 5-6knots.

 

Two rookies young or old can have some bad moments within 8-10knots either.
As reported also we already had some rather serious incidents with a learning owner helming and his crew flying hard like the BAR & FP RB videos.

The FP has indeed a more stable or auto mode foiling ride beyond if you are Burling, Outteridge or an unknown F18 or A-Class racer,

the 20 needs a little more active trim.

That is simply a fact anyone sailing both boats can confirm.

 

All comments above in ideal perfect conditions.

 

Above that grab your helmet & impact vest, and better sail with a guy you trust on his sailing skills or has some hours on any of them.

We will be doing more local FP & F20 tests this coming week.

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Thanks k2mav-I appreciate that!

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Doug

 

Thanks for confirming my point. As I said, those who have Moth foiling experience find the boat really easy, those that haven't find the boat really hard. We are finding exactly the same thing with the A Class. If you were to watch Stevie Brewin sailing downhill, you would have thought it was easy and stable. In any proper breeze (say over 8 or 9 knots), he can sail up on foils for miles at a time. Yet the majority of A Class sailors with foilers struggle to fly for more than 100 metres.

 

Thats not exactly the case, Simon. Whereas the Moth can be difficult in any condition for some people, The Phantom is easy to foil in the right conditions regardless if you've had any Moth experience or not. I guess you missed that part,huh?!

 

Conditions were around 8-9knots in the afternoon, lots of patches, my ride was with even less wind than the footage above.

The FP starts foiling in the same range when the F18s start to lift one hull with Spi in +6-7knots, that was the feeling I got from the power needed. And we were foiling without Spi. The RSBC kids also got to helm

the boat as Henry did past week, and they were foiling easily in this range of wind.

 

That is correct

I am not an olympic sailor never sailed moth or Aclass

Only got hobby cats and F18 today 61yo and nor the strength and agility I had before..

With 6 10 knots the FP flies by himself just regulating the main and the traveller

With 10 knots your speed is 20 knots so that is a step you have to manage

The extra power due to apparent wind in crease has to be controlled

Downwind with the kite the reduction. Of apparent wind allows to reach 25 30k with 15 20k of wind the steering is the same that a normal cat the angle being much more down

All the people I saw helming the FP for the first time flew in 10 mins in manageable conditions but in tricky conditions you have no other choice than to come back in archimedian mode

 

 

Thanks for your comments,flyingmomo!

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Here is the second of the original Red Bull videos-now on youtube. And it's another classic with commentary about why the Flying Phantom was chosen:

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Nothing in this world is a perfect allrounder - particularly if it is man made - Think of the fun times you have when the Ferrari or Porsche Owner is trying to load timber or other bulky shit into their beloved sports car.

 

Look if we could all have a RIB as mothership that takes us on and off the boat where it is flat water, calm stable winds of exactly 8 knots - then Yes I buy that the Phantom would all be peachy..... A few training sessions with Nathan would not be declined either.

 

However in the real world, where launching sites are scattered with a dozens of moorings, other water traffic, in gusty conditions and god forbid waves, let alone being on a lee shore in shallow water, then we are talking about Difficult/Challenging/Hair Raising/Doomed for Failure.

 

The Moth Worlds at Sorrento had this scenario, launching was the most challenging part of many competitors days. These are guys who sail these small and light boats to a standard that they feel they can justify the time and expense of attending a Worlds. (I am not referring to the top 20 or so guys here - just the other 100 or so....)

 

But we should all listen to the Master of Spin who has only in recent times handled the joysticks of a Radio transmitter in 4 knots of wind and still cant provide evidence of sustained and stable flight - but gives us stills and highly edited video snippets - to hear how the Phantom is the panacea to all foiling aspirants.

Grow up Lord.

We like enthusiasm, but it needs to be qualified - not the constant screeching and sycophantic wailings like a 13 year girl about her latest Hollywood heartthrob.

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I'm amazed that you compare the launching of a Moth with the launching of a Flying Phantom. You truly, without any doubt, don't have a clue what you're talking about! The Phantom has retractable foils and can be beach sailed using cat tracks like any other cat where the poor Mothie has to carry his boat out to chest deep water and clamber aboard trying not to hit anything. The Moth is a great boat but launching isn't one of it's better attributes-like it is with the Phantom or Nacra foiler. Who's "we"-you mean there are more like you?!

-----

These Red Bull videos are great because for the first time ever we can see a fleet of small catamaran foilers racing in some spectacular videography that will whet the appetite of many performance sailors all over the world. Kudo's to Alex Udin and Red Bull for getting together on this-and heres hoping it works out well. Just got to bring this roadshow to more places!

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There you go again - pontificating about stuff you have no experience of......

 

Consider this, you own an FP and it has $12K+ of foils on it - agreed they retract - but do you want to risk banging the crap out of them in a launching area or more importantly when you are coming screaming in to the retrieval zone.

 

These foils are also considerably longer than standard beach cat foils so you are gonna want stop to pull them up in good order.

It's not like many people will have the capacity to repair these uber exotic bits of carbon and keep them at 100% integrity.

 

Now go and weave through the remaining traffic and general shit I referred to before - because the law of sod dictates that something else will be there to hinder you.

How many times is the launch/retrieve zone an easy fetch or reach?

Usually you either have to

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Would you like to state on record the full size boats that you are currently sailing?

 

Have you even seen the launching issues that races like the Round Texel have?

I know you haven't competed in one - you would be even more unbearable with your pontificating.

 

These style beachcats with overlength and uber expensive delicate J and L foils spend even longer in the zone of trying to get to water depth where they are not going to rip them apart or the cases in the hulls in which they sit. No one is going to want to damage them for fear of breaching their integrity and strength - its not like its one of your toy boats to fix.

 

This involves putting the crews into equally deep water as the moths do - but with the added problem of lots more mass and windage.

 

The law of sod dictates that wherever you want to go or be - that someone or something else will already be there.

 

I don't know why I am trying to explain this to you - you are a fundamental moron with zealot like misplaced belief in what you spout. You will also never sail either a moth or a Phantom - Thankfully.

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Just plain uninformed nonsense!

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I don't know why I am trying to explain this to you - you are a fundamental moron with zealot like misplaced belief in what you spout. You will also never sail either a moth or a Phantom - Thankfully.

 

Boink... I truly admire your effort to bring his Dougness into line on his behavior.... but it isn't going to result in anything but more insipid baloney out of his pie hole.

 

Many have tried over many years and it has resulted in the same, unaltered, person you see on these pages today.

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I read somewhere that Mr. Lord has Narsistic Personality Disorder.

 

***R.T.***

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From Alex Udin in the Red Bull thread:

 

Dear All,

Let me clarify few things that are not right, Artemis, Oracle and Red Bull were the very first one to order some FP. None of these teams were put ahead other customers.

We are delivering the boats according to the chronological order.

It is true that we have been late with deliveries due to lack of capacity of our yard, our first priority is quality, the production is running smoothly and slowly ramping up.

I thank our valued customers for being so patient.

Alex UDIN

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I read somewhere that Mr. Lord has Narsistic Personality Disorder.

 

***R.T.***

Judge for yourself........

 

From Wiki:

 

***R.T.***

___________________________________________________________

Symptoms

People who are diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy.[5]

DSM-5

Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-5, include:[6]

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifested by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or B): a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem. b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high in order to see oneself as exceptional, or too low based on a sense of entitlement; often unaware of own motivations. AND 2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or B): a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others. b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others' experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domain:

  1. Antagonism, characterized by:

a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert; self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others; condescending toward others. b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.

C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual's developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).

DSM-IV-TR

Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR, include:[1]

  • Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
  • Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
  • Envies others and believes others envy him/her
  • Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
  • Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
  • Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
  • Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic

Other symptoms in addition to the ones defined by DSM-IV-TR include: Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends, has trouble keeping healthy relationships with others, easily hurt or rejected, appears unemotional, and exaggerating special achievements and talents, setting unrealistic goals for himself/herself.[7]

Narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by an over-inflated sense of self-importance, as well as dramatic, emotional behavior that is in the same category as antisocial and borderline personality disorders.[8]

In addition to these symptoms, the person may display arrogance, show superiority, and seek power.[9] The symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder can be similar to the traits of individuals with strong self-esteem and confidence; differentiation occurs when the underlying psychological structures of these traits are considered pathological. Narcissists have such an elevated sense of self-worth that they value themselves as inherently better than others, when in reality they have a fragile self-esteem, cannot handle criticism, and often try to compensate for this inner fragility by belittling or disparaging others in an attempt to validate their own self-worth. Comments and criticisms about others are vicious from sufferers of NPD, in an attempt to boost their own poor self-esteem.[10]

Another narcissist symptom is a lack of empathy. They are unable to relate, understand, and rationalize the feelings of others. Instead of behaving in a way that shows how they are feeling in the moment, they behave in the way that they feel they are expected to behave or that gives them the most attention.[7]

An extensive US survey found a high association with other disabilities, especially amongst men: mental disability, substance use, mood, anxiety disorders and other personality disorders, bipolar I disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, and schizotypal and borderline personality disorders were among the associated disabilities.[11]

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I wasn't sure whether the FP foiled to weather: They do.

 

Just watched Team Artemis do it with their pair. Looked fast and fun.

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Video or in person? Did John get any video?

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I don't think he did - not sure though. It was pretty late in the afternoon when they hit the Cityfront. Late afternoon sail - Loick, Nathan, Percy - wonder who it was.

 

They definitely had skills.

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Lord - answer the question.

 

What full sized boats, and foiling boats, do you currently sail?

 

We're waiting.........

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Excellent shot, hawk!

-----------------------------------------

HEADS UP: check this url Monday morning as the editor will have video and results from the matchup between the Phantom and Nacra 20 foiler. http://www.catsailingnews.com/

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