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Marco

Melges 24 rules update

65 posts in this topic

There were numerous rule changes proposed in the document titled: "Melges 24: A Vision for 2014 and Beyond"

 

Among these are:

  • Mandated shorter stanchions
  • recommend eliminating the weight limit altogether, while imposing certain reasonable conditions
  • for those who wish, switch the traveller to an optional mainsheet bridle system

Can anyone say which of these were passed and when they will be enforced?

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wow, about 6 weeks to the worlds and there are 31 entries. any idea how many are expected?

 

At this late stage, wouldn't that be the final number? You have to ship your boat to Australia, so the boats would already be on their way.

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so from the AGM we discover:

 

Bowsprit Launch Line Cleat

CURRENT RULE:

H.2 - ON COCKPIT BULKHEAD - To port, fairlead with cleat behind for bowsprite launch line

 

NEW RULE:

H.2 - ON COCKPIT BULKHEAD - To port, fairlead with 1 or 2 cleats behind for bowsprite launch line.

 

that the bowsprite (i think that's a tiny elf-like creature who lives on the bow) launch line is on the port bulkhead... port? really? not on my boat...

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also, here's another fun fact... we have to have shortened stanchions by January 1st... AGM says:

 

Federico Michetti drew the meetings attention to the detail in the Builder's Report highlighting that a low cost retrofit kit IS available for those who do not wish to purchase a new set of stanchions. (emphasis added)

 

however according to the email i got from andy burdick yesterday when i asked about the kit...

 

"We will have the kits in at the end of this month. Sorry for any delay."

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There were numerous rule changes proposed in the document titled: "Melges 24: A Vision for 2014 and Beyond"

 

Among these are:

 

  • Mandated shorter stanchions
  • recommend eliminating the weight limit altogether, while imposing certain reasonable conditions

     

  • for those who wish, switch the traveller to an optional mainsheet bridle system

Can anyone say which of these were passed and when they will be enforced?

Old news

 

forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=151262

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wow, about 6 weeks to the worlds and there are 31 entries. any idea how many are expected?

Not a lot! But given the M24 just started up in Oz about 5 years ago, not terrible either. I am jealous of everyone...what a place for a Worlds.

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so from the AGM we discover:

 

Bowsprit Launch Line Cleat

CURRENT RULE:

H.2 - ON COCKPIT BULKHEAD - To port, fairlead with cleat behind for bowsprite launch line

 

NEW RULE:

H.2 - ON COCKPIT BULKHEAD - To port, fairlead with 1 or 2 cleats behind for bowsprite launch line.

 

that the bowsprite (i think that's a tiny elf-like creature who lives on the bow) launch line is on the port bulkhead... port? really? not on my boat...

Aside from a few typos and errors, that is quite an interesting and optimistic report from the AGM. I like the direction the Class is going and hope to get back in the class soon. Best race boat ever.

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OK so 4 new stanchions @ $195 each, or just cut about 10cm off and epoxy on new caps @ $39 a piece.

I figure I'll be also be applying for phrf rating mod based on 'reduced righting moment', anyone else trying that ?

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OK so 4 new stanchions @ $195 each, or just cut about 10cm off and epoxy on new caps @ $39 a piece.

I figure I'll be also be applying for phrf rating mod based on 'reduced righting moment', anyone else trying that ?

Read the rules carefully before doing any mods. there are only 3 approved methods.

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where are we supposed to find all this information... the class rules haven't been updated... i found out about this because suddenly everyone else at the club was making arrangements to get their stanchions cut... i eventually tripped over the minutes mentioned earlier in this thread, but there's nothing about approved methods, etc...

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Thanks Shaytoon!

So at our club we've all cut our shit up and now i notice that this isn't actually going to happen unless it's approved by ISAF... i get that it's going to get approved, but I'd laugh my bag off if it didn't... The roll out would make more sense if they set had a date for after all the approvals were in place! We're instructed to live and die by the rulebook and then they expect us to take drastic action based on an internet posting that isn't included in the current rule book!

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Be thankful that it happened is my recommendation, I have been begging for this for a year plus. I sailed with short stanchions last year at KWRW and my crew loved it. Finally it went through, give it a go your crew will thank you for it I promise.

Bora

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Not sure I understand or agree with this. Yes, shorter stantions make hiking easier on crew, but now you have 850 plus boats that need to change their set up. I also dont see how this will be any less physical. Of course, the more money you spend, the easier it is. (Having someone else do the work) Or less money and do it yourself, which doesnt seem to be all that easy. The problem doesnt seem to be the stantions, the problem seems to be the lifeline setup. Ever since they converted to the new lifeline, hiking on a melges 24 has become an issue. Why not changes the rules on hiking, making it less physical to hike or go back to the old lifelines, which only really allows you to hike to a certain point. Either way, I think its going to be hard to get 850 plus boats to make the change quickly.

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Dropping the lifeline height makes a huge difference in hiking style. Look at the pic from KWRW and how Bora's team are positioned on the lower lifeline. The crew that is by the stanchions no longer have to get up off the deck just get on the lifeline to hike. It is now at a lower postion allowing them to remain on the deck while effectively hiking.

 

I also think allowing the line to have the 10cm of slack is important. Our team has been doing some J70 racing this past season. They have low stanchions, but require you to keep the line tight. The tight lines kept my crew from hiking in the breeze. They sometime begin to fall back in the cockpit.

 

Regarding the unlimited weight. I don't think it's necessary for the M24. The 24 has a relatively wide, powerful hull. You can get on the widest part and keep it flat I hear comparisons to the J70. The J70 is such narrow boat, you need all the weight you can just to keep it flat going upwind in any breeze. And don't get me started on how bad the hull shape is.

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Not sure I understand or agree with this. Yes, shorter stantions make hiking easier on crew, but now you have 850 plus boats that need to change their set up. I also dont see how this will be any less physical. Of course, the more money you spend, the easier it is. (Having someone else do the work) Or less money and do it yourself, which doesnt seem to be all that easy. The problem doesnt seem to be the stantions, the problem seems to be the lifeline setup. Ever since they converted to the new lifeline, hiking on a melges 24 has become an issue. Why not changes the rules on hiking, making it less physical to hike or go back to the old lifelines, which only really allows you to hike to a certain point. Either way, I think its going to be hard to get 850 plus boats to make the change quickly.

 

Many people were going away from the Melges 24 due to what was deemed extreme hiking. This is the solution, the original stanchion height was choosing because of the ORR regulation at that time. Maybe I am wrong but paying $130 for the ability of the guys just out there having a good time to be comfy and hike as hard as the "pros" seems like a good trade off.

 

Other bonuses is that the hull deck joint takes much less abuse since the stanchions can't impart as much torque. The boat also just looks a ton better.

 

It makes no difference in righting moment it probably increases it as people can hike harder more comfortably, and you don't have to change unless you are going to a national level class event. Not like the melges guys are going to sick the NSA on you at your local PHRF beer can race.

Bora

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Im just not sure they should have ever went to the new style lifelines. Ever since then, all I have heard is "hiking" as a negative term when it comes to a melges 24. True it allows you to hike the boat better, but at the pain and expense of your crew, which now has lead to this situation.

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Im just not sure they should have ever went to the new style lifelines. Ever since then, all I have heard is "hiking" as a negative term when it comes to a melges 24. True it allows you to hike the boat better, but at the pain and expense of your crew, which now has lead to this situation.

So the did the best thing they could to fix it, why are you complaining?

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I just think they have overcomplicated the boat. 22 years ago when it came out, it was a very simple boat, especially compared to a j24 at the time. This made it awesome. Over the years, the boat as become much more complex, driving the price of it up and I assume is behind driving people away. It takes like two and half hours to rig the boat, when showing up to an event and is very hard for one person. The lifelines are a part of this. Most of the time, you whould want to take them off when traveling, as they are big and flap around, but they are a pain to take off and put on everytime. There should just be an overall better way.

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I hear what you are saying but respectfully disagree. Two people 45 min if motivated that has always been my target time from trailer to piss and it still remains. The pads are very quick you just need a a piece of 1/8in spectra to push in and double over and pull through the top of the stanchions. I can rig the whole hiking line system in about 5 minutes minus the bungee in the back which is a 3 handed operation. But not anymore since you don't even need the bungee with the short stanchions.

I would recommend being systematic if you take it apart correctly it is easy to put back together.

 

The mast is still the same and is a one person operation to throw up. What are the added complications?

 

I have rigged my share of J-24's and I agree easy is not the word I would use.

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I just think they have overcomplicated the boat. 22 years ago when it came out, it was a very simple boat, especially compared to a j24 at the time. This made it awesome. Over the years, the boat as become much more complex, driving the price of it up and I assume is behind driving people away. It takes like two and half hours to rig the boat, when showing up to an event and is very hard for one person. The lifelines are a part of this. Most of the time, you whould want to take them off when traveling, as they are big and flap around, but they are a pain to take off and put on everytime. There should just be an overall better way.

 

If it takes you 2.5 hours to rig the boat, even alone, you need to travel to more events or practice. I'll tell you what: I'll do a 'trailer to piss in 45 minute' video in Charleston for everyone.

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2 of us take about an hour, and finish at least a 6 pack while rigging or de-rigging.

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Mr. Clean - 2.5 may be an exaggeration, but if you can rig it from completely taken apart (spreaders, vang, lifelines, etc.) and in the covers to piss in 45mins alone, Id like to see that.

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I can't, but me and bora together can.

 

I can do it in about an hour and change. Crew usually have boom and vang off and down below before we hit the dock on the last day, that makes it a bit easier. Also had those cool PVC 'shroud+spreader' holders that made life easy too. But holy crap when a full, experienced crew works together the boat gets on the road so fast it is scary.

 

But then again, I was building and deconstructing 5-10 boats per regatta and racing 12-15 events a year back then and practice makes perfect.

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Can we see the PVC shroud and spreader holder. I broke a spreader one time. Would love to see a video of a team braking down the M24.

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Mr. Clean - 2.5 may be an exaggeration, but if you can rig it from completely taken apart (spreaders, vang, lifelines, etc.) and in the covers to piss in 45mins alone, Id like to see that.

 

Our target was always less than an hour with the full team and about an hour and a little more with two people. Its all about how you put the boat away the last time. You have a system and process putting it away it makes it far easier to put back together.

 

I am pretty excited about these new rules, although I really wanted the no weight rule. The hiking is one of the reasons why I got out of the class and into the 20. But I am excited about getting back into the 24 in the next few years.

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I think you will find that most PHRF races require legitimate lifelines that adhere to ORC reqs, which would be a min 18 inches and the M24 will still not meet that requirement.

OK so 4 new stanchions @ $195 each, or just cut about 10cm off and epoxy on new caps @ $39 a piece.

I figure I'll be also be applying for phrf rating mod based on 'reduced righting moment', anyone else trying that ?

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when you're as old as I am you just have to piss a bit more...so typically an hour and a half and a piss in between...going to miss you in KW Bora Good luck down there!

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Ill be there just on the spookie this year



 

I think you will find that most PHRF races require legitimate lifelines that adhere to ORC reqs, which would be a min 18 inches and the M24 will still not meet that requirement.

OK so 4 new stanchions @ $195 each, or just cut about 10cm off and epoxy on new caps @ $39 a piece.

I figure I'll be also be applying for phrf rating mod based on 'reduced righting moment', anyone else trying that ?

Then a j70 wouldn't either

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I think you will find that most PHRF races require legitimate lifelines that adhere to ORC reqs, which would be a min 18 inches and the M24 will still not meet that requirement.

 

I dont believe the M24 ever met the requriment for "legitimate" lifelines. To my knowledge a key issue is lifelines must cover the entire boat - not just parts of it. Second, lifelines need to be tight, not slack.

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Ill be there just on the spookie this year

 

 

I think you will find that most PHRF races require legitimate lifelines that adhere to ORC reqs, which would be a min 18 inches and the M24 will still not meet that requirement.

OK so 4 new stanchions @ $195 each, or just cut about 10cm off and epoxy on new caps @ $39 a piece.

I figure I'll be also be applying for phrf rating mod based on 'reduced righting moment', anyone else trying that ?

Then a j70 wouldn't either

Corrrect

 

You would be correct

 

I think you will find that most PHRF races require legitimate lifelines that adhere to ORC reqs, which would be a min 18 inches and the M24 will still not meet that requirement.

 

I dont believe the M24 ever met the requriment for "legitimate" lifelines. To my knowledge a key issue is lifelines must cover the entire boat - not just parts of it. Second, lifelines need to be tight, not slack.

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Nobody is talking about the change to the weight limit. It makes a ton of sense to lift it. Finding crews that are good enough to take on the road and make major events is a hard enough task for the "average joe". Sailing in the US is already at decline and we are sticking with these ideas that you need to be and exact size to catch a ride is foolish concept. It does not take away from the corinthian spirit of one design and it wll help expose more people to an already great class. We are talking about growing a class and the sport right? Are skinny people really afraid of us fatties? Any thoughts??

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The weight limit issue I agree should be lifted. At local events not sanctioned by the class we never abided by the class rules for weight. However, I could see how finding the right crew weight to experienced crew ratio could be a challenge. I had a hard time when I had my Melges 24.

 

That's great about the lower stanchion rule, it's about time.

 

I'm waiting for them to lift the rule about requiring an engine and 3 gallons of gas. A torqueedo would push a M24 quite nicely. And eliminate the whole spilling fuel below decks. 2 stroke engines are harder to find and 4 strokes do NOT like to be laid on thir side.

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The weight limit issue I agree should be lifted. At local events not sanctioned by the class we never abided by the class rules for weight. However, I could see how finding the right crew weight to experienced crew ratio could be a challenge. I had a hard time when I had my Melges 24.

That's great about the lower stanchion rule, it's about time.

I'm waiting for them to lift the rule about requiring an engine and 3 gallons of gas. A torqueedo would push a M24 quite nicely. And eliminate the whole spilling fuel below decks. 2 stroke engines are harder to find and 4 strokes do NOT like to be laid on thir side.

INTERNATIONAL MELGES 24 CLASS RULES 2012
C.5.2 NOT FOR USE
(a) MANDATORY
(1) One functioning outboard engine and bracket:
2 stroke minimum nominal power – 2kw (3hp)
4 stroke minimum nominal power - 1.46kw (2hp)
Electric outboard of minimum power 450kw
Minimum engine weight empty of fuel – 12.5kg

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Well there ya go. A torqueedo would've been much better than the piece of crap outboard I had on my M24....

 

Good to know. Thanks.

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You might think so until you're away at a regatta sometime and your battery goes dead going out or coming back from the course when the wind dies and you have to beg a tow from another racer with an outboard ;-) of course you could always buy a spare battery for $600! Been there!

 

Check your messages, I PM'd you.

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that the bowsprite (i think that's a tiny elf-like creature who lives on the bow)

His M.O. is a lot like the spider in your passenger side rear-view mirror.

Just when you think you got rid of him, HE'S BACK

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I hear what you are saying but respectfully disagree. Two people 45 min if motivated that has always been my target time from trailer to piss and it still remains. The pads are very quick you just need a a piece of 1/8in spectra to push in and double over and pull through the top of the stanchions. I can rig the whole hiking line system in about 5 minutes minus the bungee in the back which is a 3 handed operation. But not anymore since you don't even need the bungee with the short stanchions.

I would recommend being systematic if you take it apart correctly it is easy to put back together.

 

The mast is still the same and is a one person operation to throw up. What are the added complications?

 

I have rigged my share of J-24's and I agree easy is not the word I would use.

Heartily agree and in any case we like doing it because we want to go through everything because ..we..just..do. With our crew it takes 30 mins absolute maximum including fart assing around and having a chat about what we hope to achieve when we are practicing etc. In fact at the club we are about as lucky as any I know by keeping our beastie in a shed by the water with the rig hoisted into the ceiling. We unscrew the Brolgas and tape everything to the mast with electrical tape. Rinse off, back in the shed, laughing.

I have sailed on all sorts of things but at our club-now with eight of us going for the Worlds here in Aus we are living the dream having first seen these on the Solent all those years ago. The stanchions really should make a great difference and if anything we will be able to move more mass outboard more comfortably. Long overdue mod. Cannot wait until Geelong!!

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I think you will find that most PHRF races require legitimate lifelines that adhere to ORC reqs, which would be a min 18 inches and the M24 will still not meet that requirement.

 

I dont believe the M24 ever met the requriment for "legitimate" lifelines. To my knowledge a key issue is lifelines must cover the entire boat - not just parts of it. Second, lifelines need to be tight, not slack.

IF PHRF doesn't let the J/70 sail, PHRF will have some big problems considering the fucking boat is going to be making up about 10% of all race boats within a couple years!

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I would be surprised if some of the J70 guys did not seriously consider and ultimately act in getting into the Melges 24 fleet next. Having built a team in a J70 people surely will want to test themselves as well as sail a faster boat which especially now addresses some of the frustrations one reads and hears about in the J70 and has finally addressed it's own Melges 24 issues. Good on the Johnstone guys for figuring a gap in the market left by the Melges guys but same time the performance premium and perhaps now even comfort premium (yes we hike, no we don't fall into the cockpit) for those who sail up the breeze scale will come into it. The one design fleet racing we have been having here in Adelaide on a weekly basis has been off the charts for grins and general being in a fleet fun. I am only sorry I did not get into the fleet back in 99 and went J105 instead (nice boat though it was and the young family did enjoy it). We could have has a few more decent holidays and less family rows over new sails and been running a Melges and a rib.

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Has anyone officially explored a PHRF rating change based on the new lower stanchions? I've heard a lot of reasons why it should or should not matter to PHRF (mostly the latter) but wondering if any has looked into it in depth.

 

-djm

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Has anyone officially explored a PHRF rating change based on the new lower stanchions? I've heard a lot of reasons why it should or should not matter to PHRF (mostly the latter) but wondering if any has looked into it in depth.

 

-djm

Why would the rating change? The boat has a rating based on the one design rules?

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I read a thread where the NOLA PHRF gave the M24 3 sec a mile. Went from 93-96. Search www.noyc.org forums

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I read a thread where the NOLA PHRF gave the M24 3 sec a mile. Went from 93-96. Search www.noyc.org forums

And this was because of the lifeline change or PHRF was actually changing it based on performance data? The M24 in PHRF-Narragansett bay moved from 96 to 99 in the early to mid 2000s. A Melges 24 rate 102 in PHRF-New England....

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Found this from the NOLA site (looks more like wishful thinking :) - maybe it went through but can't seem to find that.

 

 

Bottom line is that hiking will be less extreme (shorter stanchion, taut hiking line), no more weight limit (since current weight is about ideal anyway), and optional bridle for mainsheet (for people who want to go slow).

Retrofit for stanchions to be offered fairly cheap ($35 bucks per stanchion I think).

Now the trick will be to get our 3 seconds per mile back from the GYA PHRF Rating Committee.

http://usmelges24.com/pdf/2014-Melges24-Vision.pdf

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under phrf, any modification will grant you a hit of 3 sec/mile no matter what. ;)

 

and there's no such a thing as "getting our 3 sec/mile back" - never. :P

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What are all the M24s doing with lifelines on the new shorter stanchions? I assembled mine and there is no way that they could ever be tight enough to meet the 250mm min height off the deck. (That only allows about 75mm sag in ~ 20ft of lifeline). I heard that the Worlds allowed the rules to be amended to 100mm min height. Are all M24 regattas stating this amendment?

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We are seeing the same thing. It's really bad when you have old hutch hiking pads that are really stretched out. From what we have seen, they need to be looser than 100mm

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your class is a fuck up

 

cannot you see the way forward ?

 

why the hell are you sportsboaters hiking like a leadbelly anyhow ?

 

see the downunder or Shaw or Viper

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your class is a fuck up

 

cannot you see the way forward ?

 

why the hell are you sportsboaters hiking like a leadbelly anyhow ?

 

see the downunder or Shaw or Viper

This is why this site is becoming a joke.

 

Thanks for contributing

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We bought the boat basically as a day sailer and occasional PHRF racer since there are no local fleets (Melges had a very effective "sales prevention team" in New England when they were introduced). I find it to be a beautifully engineered boat that still attracts a crowd every time we come to the dock.

 

We have three kids and found it tough to sail in much breeze and the kids did not feel comfortable on the helm. We solved the problem by having some reef eyes installed in an old main. Looks funny but lets the kids take charge.

 

Are the new stanchions available now?

 

Another question - we have a 3.5hp Johnson short shaft 2 stroke, which seemed to be the standard for the class at the time. But I can't find the weight anywhere. Not that it matters much for our use, but is the Johnson lighter than the rules require?

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your class is a fuck up cannot you see the way forward ? why the hell are you sportsboaters hiking like a leadbelly anyhow ? see the downunder or Shaw or Viper

Vituperation from an anonymous ESL speaker.

 

Well played, Sir!

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We bought the boat basically as a day sailer and occasional PHRF racer since there are no local fleets (Melges had a very effective "sales prevention team" in New England when they were introduced). I find it to be a beautifully engineered boat that still attracts a crowd every time we come to the dock.

 

We have three kids and found it tough to sail in much breeze and the kids did not feel comfortable on the helm. We solved the problem by having some reef eyes installed in an old main. Looks funny but lets the kids take charge.

 

Are the new stanchions available now?

 

Another question - we have a 3.5hp Johnson short shaft 2 stroke, which seemed to be the standard for the class at the time. But I can't find the weight anywhere. Not that it matters much for our use, but is the Johnson lighter than the rules require?

Yes, new stanchions are available on Melges website. You have two different options. All new stanchions or retrofit kit.

 

All new stanchions you will most likely be filling in holes on the deck since you have a 100 series boat. They stanchion design has changed over time, just not the height.

 

Why get new stanchions or outboard if not racing OD. The Melges 24 fleet never took off in New England... Believe me I have owned 3 of them..... It is J-Boats back yard......

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Good point. J/70 is "The sincerest form of flattery."

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I contacted the local PHRF handicapper and his answer was "We don't care" since different races are run under different rules. ORC Cat 4, the boat would not be eligible, while Cat 5 either would be OK, according to him.

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At our club we found a guy who cut the existing stanchions down and re-welded the tops back on. I think we got a good deal on it because he was doing a bunch (10ish boats) but it was very reasonable... I'm thinking $100 per boat iirc? And because there was no change to the bases there was no alteration required to the deck.

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At our club we found a guy who cut the existing stanchions down and re-welded the tops back on. I think we got a good deal on it because he was doing a bunch (10ish boats) but it was very reasonable... I'm thinking $100 per boat iirc? And because there was no change to the bases there was no alteration required to the deck.

Correct no changes to the deck if you cut your existing, but if you buy a whole new stanchion, then the holes won't match up.

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I'll just piggy back to ask, where can I find out the location of East Coast M24 one-design fleets?

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Try sending a note to Scott Foxman sgfoxman@gmail.com . He's the guy in the northeast.

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so has anyone converted over to the new bridle system?

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