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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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hurrisailor

Cheminées Poujoulat - rescued.... its happened again (All Safe)

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Just heard on the radio coming into work that Falmouth Coast Guard Spent all night rescuing the crew off the Open 60 Cheminées Poujoulat. The Coast Guard watch leader discribed how the two helicopters had to turn back due to the weather!

 

He also stated the boat had broke in half? I would imagine we will hear more today.

 

Glad all are ok!

 

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-12-24/falmouth-coordinates-rescue-of-two-french-sailors/

 

 

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That Juan Kouyoumdjian boat promised so much, described as 'one of the most powerful' IMOCA 60's ever built. Sadly, it has never really shown its potential. Glad to hear Stamm and crew are safe.

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Another Juan K boat with serious structural issues then? (Bounder keel, this boat before, Speedboat keel etc etc) Very glad to hear that Stamm and crew safe though, these things shouldn't happen.

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post-32003-0-59096000-1387980506_thumb.jpg

A good guy and exceptional sailor. I thought with the new Chocolat Poujoulat he had a real chance to put the bad luck in the past.

I guess not .

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Another Juan K boat with serious structural issues then? (Bounder keel, this boat before, Speedboat keel etc etc) Very glad to hear that Stamm and crew safe though, these things shouldn't happen.

Artemis

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Another Juan K boat with serious structural issues then? (Bounder keel, this boat before, Speedboat keel etc etc) Very glad to hear that Stamm and crew safe though, these things shouldn't happen.

Artemis

Indeed, the worst. I wouldn't want to be on Loyal either (unless I was within swimming distance of the shore, in which case it would be fun). Has anyone got as bad a structural record as Juan?

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Another Juan K boat with serious structural issues then? (Bounder keel, this boat before, Speedboat keel etc etc) Very glad to hear that Stamm and crew safe though, these things shouldn't happen.

Artemis

Indeed, the worst. I wouldn't want to be on Loyal either (unless I was within swimming distance of the shore, in which case it would be fun). Has anyone got as bad a structural record as Juan?

.

 

..not as prolific,but.......http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=126442

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Another Juan K boat with serious structural issues then? (Bounder keel, this boat before, Speedboat keel etc etc) Very glad to hear that Stamm and crew safe though, these things shouldn't happen.

Artemis

Indeed, the worst. I wouldn't want to be on Loyal either (unless I was within swimming distance of the shore, in which case it would be fun). Has anyone got as bad a structural record as Juan?

 

Give us a break. Most designers have had major structural failures on some of their racing designs. Most notoriously Farr, VPLP and Botin.

 

I am by no means a Juan K fan and always thought he was overrated following the ABN-AMRO boats, but if you want to attack him it's up to you to come up with some real comparative figures, not for others to prove you wrong.

.

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Another Juan K boat with serious structural issues then? (Bounder keel, this boat before, Speedboat keel etc etc) Very glad to hear that Stamm and crew safe though, these things shouldn't happen.

Artemis

Indeed, the worst. I wouldn't want to be on Loyal either (unless I was within swimming distance of the shore, in which case it would be fun). Has anyone got as bad a structural record as Juan?

 

Give us a break. Most designers have had major structural failures on some of their racing designs. Most notoriously Farr, VPLP and Botin.

 

I am by no means a Juan K fan and always thought he was overrated following the ABN-AMRO boats, but if you want to attack him it's up to you to come up with some real comparative figures, not for others to prove you wrong.

.

"Some" is the operative word. Juan K has had a lot more proportionally than any other designer at the level he is working at. You don't have to be a genius with either Google or the search feature on here to see that.

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It's sort of an SA bandwagon about Juank. I don't recall a lot of anti vplp or Nigel Irens forum chatter after the 2002 Route du Rhum. That said, vplp's imoca's have been excellent. I know which one I'd feel more comfortable with.

 

At least Stamm and his coskipper are able to be with their loved ones today.

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Another Juan K boat with serious structural issues then? (Bounder keel, this boat before, Speedboat keel etc etc) Very glad to hear that Stamm and crew safe though, these things shouldn't happen.

Artemis

Indeed, the worst. I wouldn't want to be on Loyal either (unless I was within swimming distance of the shore, in which case it would be fun). Has anyone got as bad a structural record as Juan?

 

Give us a break. Most designers have had major structural failures on some of their racing designs. Most notoriously Farr, VPLP and Botin.

 

I am by no means a Juan K fan and always thought he was overrated following the ABN-AMRO boats, but if you want to attack him it's up to you to come up with some real comparative figures, not for others to prove you wrong.

.

"Some" is the operative word. Juan K has had a lot more proportionally than any other designer at the level he is working at. You don't have to be a genius with either Google or the search feature on here to see that.

 

Bla, bla, bla, bla. Bring it on if it's so simple.

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It's sort of an SA bandwagon about Juank. I don't recall a lot of anti vplp or Nigel Irens forum chatter after the 2002 Route du Rhum. That said, vplp's imoca's have been excellent. I know which one I'd feel more comfortable with.

 

At least Stamm and his coskipper are able to be with their loved ones today.

.

 

...I have to admit to -cheering- for JuanK all along,,while the Ed seemed to enjoy trashing him.

....I really liked Juan's early adventurousness in his more youthful,'wild' years,,,and was saddened that he got shut-out for the VOR-OD,,

 

,,,,but there is a bit of an eery trend to recent designs,no? :mellow:

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Bla, bla, bla, bla. Bring it on if it's so simple.

It really is simple. You just go to www.google.com . Then you type in your search terms. Ditto for the SA search box. I'd start by googling Artemis, ABN Amro 1 and 2, Cheminees Poujoulat, Bounder, Pindar, Puma, Telefonica, Groupama, Speedboat. Bla, bla, bla, bla.

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Salvage and repair it? Would be incredible.

Crash bulkheads and water ballast tanks?

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Salvage and repair it? Would be incredible.

 

If she did break in two repairing seems unlikely, but recovering what's left will probably enable to determine what exactly failed.

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http://www.letelegramme.fr/fil_region/fil_bretagne/atlantique-l-epave-du-bateau-de-bernard-stamm-localisee-10-01-2014-2363574.php

 

Actually Stamm has, yesterday, been summoned by the Atlantic Coast Admiral to retrieve the wreck - as a danger to shipping -

 

In turn the Admiral instructed the Navy send an helo and driver to mark the wreck with a buoy.

 

Stamm has struck a deal with the l'Aber Wrac'h lifeboat and they have started towing early afternoon GMT on the 11th.

 

The Navy has issued a vid of their marking operation and if the boat has not sunk she is well under water !!

 

vid: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x19j5g9_manche-operation-de-marquage-du-voilier-poujoulat_news?start=10

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Not much left

(and front fell off)

 

 

 

 

 

 

well, the nomex is a cardboard derivative.

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Will be interesting to see what they find when the pull it out of the water. Seems to have floated reasonable well considering the damage. The break is also further forward than I would have expected if it was related to the 2011 TJV damage, maybe at the leading edge of that damage?

 

I don't know much about carbon structures and how they would deteriorate in these conditions but somehow I wouldn't be surprised if its at all possible to repair it that they would try to do it. Groupama 3 suffered major damage off of NZ in 2008 on a Jules Verne attempt and they repaired that to very good effect. That boat is still going strong today.

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Will be interesting to see what they find when the pull it out of the water. Seems to have floated reasonable well considering the damage. The break is also further forward than I would have expected if it was related to the 2011 TJV damage, maybe at the leading edge of that damage?

 

I don't know much about carbon structures and how they would deteriorate in these conditions but somehow I wouldn't be surprised if its at all possible to repair it that they would try to do it. Groupama 3 suffered major damage off of NZ in 2008 on a Jules Verne attempt and they repaired that to very good effect. That boat is still going strong today.

the repair they did to g3 was to cut both floats off and build new, monolithic ones.

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Will be interesting to see what they find when the pull it out of the water. Seems to have floated reasonable well considering the damage. The break is also further forward than I would have expected if it was related to the 2011 TJV damage, maybe at the leading edge of that damage?

 

I don't know much about carbon structures and how they would deteriorate in these conditions but somehow I wouldn't be surprised if its at all possible to repair it that they would try to do it. Groupama 3 suffered major damage off of NZ in 2008 on a Jules Verne attempt and they repaired that to very good effect. That boat is still going strong today.

the repair they did to g3 was to cut both floats off and build new, monolithic ones.

 

 

Yep that thing was rooted when it got dragged into Port Chalmers. Very different scenario to change the floats on a multi compared to repairing a mono.

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Will be interesting to see what they find when the pull it out of the water. Seems to have floated reasonable well considering the damage. The break is also further forward than I would have expected if it was related to the 2011 TJV damage, maybe at the leading edge of that damage?

 

I don't know much about carbon structures and how they would deteriorate in these conditions but somehow I wouldn't be surprised if its at all possible to repair it that they would try to do it. Groupama 3 suffered major damage off of NZ in 2008 on a Jules Verne attempt and they repaired that to very good effect. That boat is still going strong today.

the repair they did to g3 was to cut both floats off and build new, monolithic ones.

 

 

Yep that thing was rooted when it got dragged into Port Chalmers. Very different scenario to change the floats on a multi compared to repairing a mono.

well, there was a bit more to it than just that. they went monolithic feeling that the damage was first caused by core shear.

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IMOCA boats don't cease to amaze me: not only they can keep sailing without the keel (if the conditions are reasonable) but even if they broke in half they remain afloat _with_ the keel.

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IMOCA boats don't cease to amaze me: not only they can keep sailing without the keel (if the conditions are reasonable) but even if they broke in half they remain afloat _with_ the keel.

+1

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Yes, but... it's also kind of amazing that those things happened at all. Breaking in half is pretty unusual, but the keel falling off thing has become common. Not rig falling down common, but too common. Fingers crossed that the new IMOCA keels nip that in the bud.

 

And bless the Class 40 rule for creating modern and pretty advanced boats that finish races in bulk. Pretty good for a sponsor. I sometimes wonder how much slower a 60 designed to those parameters would be, and if it would matter when we follow the races online anyway. It's just a dot on a map. One of those dots is in front. That's what I am watching.

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Wheres the pics of the hauled out bits?

They haven't been hauled out yet.

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According to Bernard Stamm's web site they have now taken off the rudders and anything else they can whilst in the water and they are looking for a barge or similar to move the remains of the boat back to its home port of Brest. There seems to an issue with the water depth in the harbor at Aber Wrac'h which is the current limiting factor.

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An update from Bernard's site. Its seems the mast is still attached ?... Rough translation follows:

 

"We evaluated all the possibilities and finally decided that it was best to put on a boat to restore it by sea must keep in mind that even broken, the boat is a large object , heavy and not easy to handle.
Tuesday, so we'll gruter on a small freighter named " Moléanaise " that normally supplies the islands of the English Channel sea, and to take in stride , "said the Swiss skipper , who has carefully prepared operation and anticipated the release of water from what remains of his mount yesterday with members of his crew and three divers club Aber Wrac'h .
"We made ​​sure to recover the wreck so far floated 45 °. So we first conducted the separation rig . It was a bit weird and not really nice to cut the staysail and jib with a hacksaw but we had no choice . After that , we made up the monocoque with six large parachutes lent by both divers and DCNS , fixed on the top of the keel and the hull " detailed Bernard , already focused on the upcoming operation .

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The weak has eventually been lifted onto a boat and its on its way to Breast.

 

That's the way I want to go.

should have proof read that one... :wacko:

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So there seems to be a bit missing - about 5m or so which would have been on the inner forestay. Only showed two pieces on the original pics, and from the lift pic then a chunk of boat not there ???

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epave-cheminees-poujoulat-r-644-0.jpg

 

keel with bulb still attached.

That'll buff out

Good to know Kouyoumdjian has at least got the keel set up right.

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So there seems to be a bit missing - about 5m or so which would have been on the inner forestay. Only showed two pieces on the original pics, and from the lift pic then a chunk of boat not there ???

I agree, surprised by the latest pictures. Looks like it broke twice. The break just in front of the dagger boards looks more like where the initial reports said the break was...but then why would the bow section fall off? The bow break looks a lot cleaner as well. Other than salvaging some spare parts I'm not sure that there is much left to do with this boat.

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So there seems to be a bit missing - about 5m or so which would have been on the inner forestay. Only showed two pieces on the original pics, and from the lift pic then a chunk of boat not there ???

I agree, surprised by the latest pictures. Looks like it broke twice. The break just in front of the dagger boards looks more like where the initial reports said the break was...but then why would the bow section fall off? The bow break looks a lot cleaner as well. Other than salvaging some spare parts I'm not sure that there is much left to do with this boat.

 

Or it broke once and the part of the hull that was still attached to the bow behind the front bulkhead was gradually broken off by the movements in the sea.

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Not really clear why anyone thinks the keel fin or bulb would be missing. Once the boat broke up, the keel structures became unloaded if, as everyone says, the front fell off. Of course if the forward bulkhead at the keel was compromised then all bets are off - but that never seemed to be the case.

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Clean ?

 

Is that front page article yours ?

 

Not that it is not good, it is actually, but:

 

when writing " “Win or Break” may be a silly axiom, but when it comes to sponsor exposure, nothing is truer. And “Just Break” may be even more effective"; did you notice on the pic that DCNS gets excellent coverage on a perfectly run operation, much better than their totally failed sponsorings of Thiercelin and later Hydroptere anyway :) :)

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So there seems to be a bit missing - about 5m or so which would have been on the inner forestay. Only showed two pieces on the original pics, and from the lift pic then a chunk of boat not there ???

I agree, surprised by the latest pictures. Looks like it broke twice. The break just in front of the dagger boards looks more like where the initial reports said the break was...but then why would the bow section fall off? The bow break looks a lot cleaner as well. Other than salvaging some spare parts I'm not sure that there is much left to do with this boat.

 

maybe was two-part failure. Bow Section is the first to go, then some extreme loads come on the inner forestay and that hauls off the missing bit, and thats gone from around the board exit areas.

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So there seems to be a bit missing - about 5m or so which would have been on the inner forestay. Only showed two pieces on the original pics, and from the lift pic then a chunk of boat not there ???

I agree, surprised by the latest pictures. Looks like it broke twice. The break just in front of the dagger boards looks more like where the initial reports said the break was...but then why would the bow section fall off? The bow break looks a lot cleaner as well. Other than salvaging some spare parts I'm not sure that there is much left to do with this boat.

 

 

Towing broken boat for several days makes quite a lot of damage itself.

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From the SailingWorld article linked to earlier:

 

A Norwegian container ship arrived a few hours later and maneuvered so that the wrecked Cheminées Poujoulat touched its side. The rescue attempt was risky, but the ship’s cargo capacity was almost full, which weighted it down in the water. Otherwise, the ship could have crushed what was left of Cheminées Poujoulat into pieces with the two men onboard as the ship rose and fell with the large and confused waves. Still, at one point, Cheminées Poujoulat drifted near the boat’s hull and was pounded against the side, causing it to break up even more.

 

That would certainly account for the damage all along the rail, perhaps even the major cleaving of the hull. But the missing coachroof is a bit of a mystery. As is the missing port rudder and stock - which appears to have been torn bodily out of the hull. Perhaps the rescue ship really smashed the boat up as it was leaving. No-one would have seen it happen, and probably not cared.

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Clean ?

 

Is that front page article yours ?

 

Not that it is not good, it is actually, but:

 

when writing " “Win or Break” may be a silly axiom, but when it comes to sponsor exposure, nothing is truer. And “Just Break” may be even more effective"; did you notice on the pic that DCNS gets excellent coverage on a perfectly run operation, much better than their totally failed sponsorings of Thiercelin and later Hydroptere anyway :) :)

 

Oui, c'est a moi. Mais de quoi parles-tu aver DCNS? which program?

 

Ahhhh!!!! I just saw the logo on the ship! je ne suis pas tres observant, as you can see!

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From the SailingWorld article linked to earlier:

 

 

A Norwegian container ship arrived a few hours later and maneuvered so that the wrecked Cheminées Poujoulat touched its side. The rescue attempt was risky, but the ship’s cargo capacity was almost full, which weighted it down in the water. Otherwise, the ship could have crushed what was left of Cheminées Poujoulat into pieces with the two men onboard as the ship rose and fell with the large and confused waves. Still, at one point, Cheminées Poujoulat drifted near the boat’s hull and was pounded against the side, causing it to break up even more.

That would certainly account for the damage all along the rail, perhaps even the major cleaving of the hull. But the missing coachroof is a bit of a mystery. As is the missing port rudder and stock - which appears to have been torn bodily out of the hull. Perhaps the rescue ship really smashed the boat up as it was leaving. No-one would have seen it happen, and probably not cared.

 

 

Before towing rudders & coachroof were attached.

 

Towing broken boat is like towing broken car sideways. It causes LOTS of damage.

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a bit of the backstory (that hopefully fits into this thread) http://www.sailingworld.com/racing/imoca-crack

 

From what I understand, this whole salvage is not just only because of the mushy feelings (see FP article) of the french for their boats, but it is also a matter of finding out what happened and why the boat broke appart. I'm sure it is in Bernhard's utmost interest to find out who (Juan K, the builder, both, nobody?) is responsible for this and if he can recover some costs. This will ultimately determine if he can stay in this game or not.

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So there seems to be a bit missing - about 5m or so which would have been on the inner forestay. Only showed two pieces on the original pics, and from the lift pic then a chunk of boat not there ???

I agree, surprised by the latest pictures. Looks like it broke twice. The break just in front of the dagger boards looks more like where the initial reports said the break was...but then why would the bow section fall off? The bow break looks a lot cleaner as well. Other than salvaging some spare parts I'm not sure that there is much left to do with this boat.

Oh I Don't know about it being a total loss, a bit of cello tape some cardboard or cardboard derivatives and she's good as new.

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a bit of the backstory (that hopefully fits into this thread) http://www.sailingworld.com/racing/imoca-crack

From what I understand, this whole salvage is not just only because of the mushy feelings (see FP article) of the french for their boats, but it is also a matter of finding out what happened and why the boat broke appart. I'm sure it is in Bernhard's utmost interest to find out who (Juan K, the builder, both, nobody?) is responsible for this and if he can recover some costs. This will ultimately determine if he can stay in this game or not.

IIRC the admiralty ordered it be collected / salvaged. If Karl Kwok didn't get any money from the Farr80 and Ramblers owner didn't get any money I can't see this being any different.

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Update from Course au Large today:

 

http://www.courseaularge.com/depeches/27445/Cheminees-Poujoulat-un-probleme-de-corrosion-avere.html

 

Rough translation...

 

CHEMINÉES POUJOULAT : A PROBLEM OF CORROSION PROVEN
After being bailed out in late January Aber Wrac'h then repatriated in mid-February to Brest , its home port , the wreck Cheminees Poujoulat began to be appraised . For now, one thing is certain: it is indeed a problem of corrosion. "Now all the pieces are assembled in our database and expertise began in the middle of last week ," says Bernard . "It is clearly visible that the core material of the composite , that is to say the honeycomb aluminum is corroded . Why is it degraded so quickly? For now, we still do not know but we will try to find out through research in progress " details the browser.
Two cores were taken . They are being studied . "It's really amazing because we can observe quite healthy portions and those who are older. This is all the more surprising that before leaving Brazil last November , we had control of the boat by passing ultrasonic 30 per square centimeters. The expert who conducted the review is income these days to make a new control using the same method . This allows us , in principle , be certain that the degradation occurred between the beginning of the delivery back to the time of the accident. Today , the problem of corrosion is found and it is important for me to get back to sea with this type of boat . Otherwise, how to navigate and pull the machine if it is believed that at any moment it may break into two ? "

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Update from Course au Large today:

 

http://www.courseaularge.com/depeches/27445/Cheminees-Poujoulat-un-probleme-de-corrosion-avere.html

 

Rough translation...

 

CHEMINÉES POUJOULAT : A PROBLEM OF CORROSION PROVEN
After being bailed out in late January Aber Wrac'h then repatriated in mid-February to Brest , its home port , the wreck Cheminees Poujoulat began to be appraised . For now, one thing is certain: it is indeed a problem of corrosion. "Now all the pieces are assembled in our database and expertise began in the middle of last week ," says Bernard . "It is clearly visible that the core material of the composite , that is to say the honeycomb aluminum is corroded . Why is it degraded so quickly? For now, we still do not know but we will try to find out through research in progress " details the browser.
Two cores were taken . They are being studied . "It's really amazing because we can observe quite healthy portions and those who are older. This is all the more surprising that before leaving Brazil last November , we had control of the boat by passing ultrasonic 30 per square centimeters. The expert who conducted the review is income these days to make a new control using the same method . This allows us , in principle , be certain that the degradation occurred between the beginning of the delivery back to the time of the accident. Today , the problem of corrosion is found and it is important for me to get back to sea with this type of boat . Otherwise, how to navigate and pull the machine if it is believed that at any moment it may break into two ? "

Yikes, didn't think people used that anymore.

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The AC boats used it at least Oracle did. Was at a presentation by Bieker and he mentioned the slightest amount of saltwater intrusion into the structure and it turns to dust very quickly.

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So:

A boat breaks in two, remains drifting at sea -half sunk- for 15 days, then lies on a mooring - again half sunk - for an other month and ..... Surprise ! Surprise ! With a water ingress at the break's face; the aluminum honeycomb shows a number of corrosion patches.

Kidding us Bernard ?

 

Try and let any aluminum part for 5 days in a salt water bucket or even in a sea-water-vapour saturated room.

 

Now when they did that big repair to the front of the yacht was it in a controled atmosphere ? What about the core exposure in the previous accident ? Which points out to limits on aluminium cores usage.

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The AC boats used it at least Oracle did. Was at a presentation by Bieker and he mentioned the slightest amount of saltwater intrusion into the structure and it turns to dust very quickly.

 

At least with an AC boat they're a one hit wonder, not looking to cover 50K plus miles.

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There hasn't been much on this topic since the wreck was brought ashore.

 

There is a new interview with Bernard that has been posted on the Vendee Globe site this week.

 

They are still determining the cause of the failure and also moving ahead with the project for the next VG.

 

According to the article he is undecided on build vs buy for the next boat and this will probably be determined by budget and time. His main sponsor, Cheminées Poujoulat, seems to still be on board which is very good news.

 

http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/news/article/14304/bernard-stamm-hasn-t-yet-finished-with-the-vendee-globe.html

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The corrosion issue was reported in the latest Seahorse but it's not clear whether they've really nailed it. Not enough detail as to whether the corrosion was random and widespread through the hull or whether it was indeed just on the broken edges as Moody implies above.

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What do they mean aluminum honeycomb? Is that what the hull core is made of?

Maybe Juan K could come out of this scot free- however I think his days of getting fast racers are long gone

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So the core would only corrode if the skins were letting in water and air, right?

 

Seems pretty likely to me that the hull structure would have to be failing to allow corrosion in the first place.

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What do they mean aluminum honeycomb? Is that what the hull core is made of?

Maybe Juan K could come out of this scot free- however I think his days of getting fast racers are long gone

Yes aluminium honeycomb. Theory is that it can stand up to deformation and won't fail as catastrophically as a Nome or Aramid core. Assuming it's not corroded... Most of the IACC boats were built with aluminium, cores.

 

I would be unsurprised if a combination of carbon fibre, sea water and aluminium didn't turn out to be a battery... So if the core was failing all over the boat then sea water was getting in somehow...

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So the core would only corrode if the skins were letting in water and air, right?

 

Seems pretty likely to me that the hull structure would have to be failing to allow corrosion in the first place.

Exactly the point, this specific boat has previously been holed, see above.

What was trapped into the sandwich structure at the time of the accident, at sea, when being towed and during repairs is the question. Salted-vapor-full air trapped in the honeycomb is a guaranteed killer.

I also doubt that the individual surveyor quoted in the VG P/R has the sophisticated equipment allowing to spot corrosion in the honeycomb.

 

Final question: is an aluminum honeycomb sandwich holed at sea safely repairable ?

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