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New imoca boats

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Yes, not much disagreement here. The thing that makes monohulls interesting is the fact that even laypeople can spot differences in design, but with these hull limitations it is much harder. Still the MOCAs remain the most extreme monohull ocean racers apart from maybe the minis and will probably remain so for the foreseeable future.

 

Btw i assume it's not allowed to move the keel and mast aftwards when the boat is planing to keep bow up. Would be an interesting construction ;)

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I've a feeling 'fleet obsolescence' was a major factor in banning scow bows from the IMOCA 60 Rule. The keel and mast restrictions are yet to be tested as well.

 

I would not be assuming all the new boats will get around the track, undamaged either.

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I've a feeling 'fleet obsolescence' was a major factor in banning scow bows from the IMOCA 60 Rule.

But you could always do a WOXI to keep the old ones up to date :)

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The strong impression I am getting this year as I follow the progress of the Imoca fleet as they work up to the TJV is that it was a big and unnecessay mistake to restrict the class so severly by dictating the design of the mast and keel, and placing restrictions on the general shape of the hull. The impression I had was that the time when the restrictions were put in place coincided pretty much with the period in development of the hitherto fairly open class, when skippers and designers were all already realising what kind of engineering was necessary for a keel to remain attached with a good chance of staying there. Likewise enough masts had been lost for them to appreciate that safety margins had not been enough. Also the sensible maximum power which can be handled on an Imoca had been tested and the excessively powerful boats shown not to produce the results. Everyone had already learned from their mistakes and it wasn't necessary for a "Health and Safety Executive" to step in with draconian restrictions.

In other words, after the peak attrition rate of the 2008-9 race designs were natually trending to the more reliable and conservative because that was what was winning, and it had been shown to be necessary to have a chance of finishing the VG; and to get a good place it is actually necessary to finish!

The mast and keel restrictions have introduced a very undesirable "one-design" aspect, to what was formerly the most interesting cutting edge ocean racing class. Designers can no longer start with a blank sheet of paper. They start with a mast and a keel already drawn, and all they can do is join the dots which connect them. That is not free and innovative naval architecture any more. The final result is no longer attributable to a design house and a skipper. Instead it is a boat designed by a commmitee. Our previously free pure-bred prancing horse has been turned into a commitee-designed hobbled camel.

Sure the class and the Imoca races will remain way more interesting than the strict one-design classes, but the 6.50 mini proto now becomes the main arena for advancement of ocean racing yacht design, and it seems a little odd that such a small boat must continue to lead the way across the oceans.

Maybe the sport needs an "open" version of the class 40?

 

Spot on. One design rigs and keels have saved no costs whatsoever, and severely limited the options, particularly with the foil revolutions in the forefront. Welbourne with DSS and Juank later both proposed much lighter smaller and faster bosts using foils that would have to have been way more cost effective than these boats. Talked to a boatbuilder from Green marine and he said that the new HB wss the most complex boat ever that had come out of the yard.

 

Maybe the one design fin is a good idea for safety issues but thats about it.

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If the hull restrictions are to encourage foils & discourage scow bows I'm all for it. I think that's what Clean said they where for didn't he?

 

The keel strut is OD too as well as the bulb no?

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GBH, I'm failing to see how lighter and faster are going to get you to cheaper. I'm pretty sure you can only pick two.

 

The 60s are a bit like Formula 1, the top teams are going to spend their entire budget one way or the other. If you implement cost controls in one area all that happens is they pour more money into the remaining areas.

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The strong impression I am getting this year as I follow the progress of the Imoca fleet as they work up to the TJV is that it was a big and unnecessay mistake to restrict the class so severly by dictating the design of the mast and keel, and placing restrictions on the general shape of the hull. The impression I had was that the time when the restrictions were put in place coincided pretty much with the period in development of the hitherto fairly open class, when skippers and designers were all already realising what kind of engineering was necessary for a keel to remain attached with a good chance of staying there. Likewise enough masts had been lost for them to appreciate that safety margins had not been enough. Also the sensible maximum power which can be handled on an Imoca had been tested and the excessively powerful boats shown not to produce the results. Everyone had already learned from their mistakes and it wasn't necessary for a "Health and Safety Executive" to step in with draconian restrictions.

In other words, after the peak attrition rate of the 2008-9 race designs were natually trending to the more reliable and conservative because that was what was winning, and it had been shown to be necessary to have a chance of finishing the VG; and to get a good place it is actually necessary to finish!

The mast and keel restrictions have introduced a very undesirable "one-design" aspect, to what was formerly the most interesting cutting edge ocean racing class. Designers can no longer start with a blank sheet of paper. They start with a mast and a keel already drawn, and all they can do is join the dots which connect them. That is not free and innovative naval architecture any more. The final result is no longer attributable to a design house and a skipper. Instead it is a boat designed by a commmitee. Our previously free pure-bred prancing horse has been turned into a commitee-designed hobbled camel.

Sure the class and the Imoca races will remain way more interesting than the strict one-design classes, but the 6.50 mini proto now becomes the main arena for advancement of ocean racing yacht design, and it seems a little odd that such a small boat must continue to lead the way across the oceans.

Maybe the sport needs an "open" version of the class 40?

 

Spot on. One design rigs and keels have saved no costs whatsoever, and severely limited the options, particularly with the foil revolutions in the forefront. Welbourne with DSS and Juank later both proposed much lighter smaller and faster bosts using foils that would have to have been way more cost effective than these boats. Talked to a boatbuilder from Green marine and he said that the new HB wss the most complex boat ever that had come out of the yard.

 

Maybe the one design fin is a good idea for safety issues but thats about it.

 

Still think folk had already learned from prior mistakes, but the class could have simply restricted the choice of fin materials and manufacturing route, and left the actual design of the fin open. They could even have broadly imposed a limit on the maximum stress by defining a qualifying load case, say fin horizontal, maximum tensile stress anywhere in the fin not to exceed a specific maximum, to be verified by a FE analysis and a strain gauge test. That would still allow design freedom but with a class imposed safety factor.

There was never a good reason to force any kind of "one-design" on the class for such a significant parts of a racing boat as the keel and mast.

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Learned what? THREE keels FELL OFF last race. Not one, not two, but three. That is an astonishingly bad recent track record. I guess only one rig fell down, so we should count that as a victory? Then HB lost its rig in the Barcelona Race.

 

The racing will be a lot more interesting if the boats actually stay in the race.

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Which reminds me: Did the class investigate the Spirit of Hungary keel issues?

 

They had serious issues loosing keel bolts. And they are the first new rule construction.

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Which reminds me: Did the class investigate the Spirit of Hungary keel issues?

 

They had serious issues loosing keel bolts. And they are the first new rule construction.

I wouldn't use SOH as any kind of construction yardstick. That whole build was a cock-up from start to finish. They even had to re-core it.

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GBH, I'm failing to see how lighter and faster are going to get you to cheaper. I'm pretty sure you can only pick two.

 

The 60s are a bit like Formula 1, the top teams are going to spend their entire budget one way or the other. If you implement cost controls in one area all that happens is they pour more money into the remaining areas.

As you point out, the best teams will spend the money one way or another. I think the idea was that with a DSS foil you could make a narrower hull and thus would need less carbon. Anyways, early days for more advanced foiling systems in offshore racing, so hard to say where the sweet spot is

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Which reminds me: Did the class investigate the Spirit of Hungary keel issues?

 

They had serious issues loosing keel bolts. And they are the first new rule construction.

I don't know if there were any investigation, but Nandor Fa said in a recent interview that the keel bolts had been redesigned. So that probably be considered as an admission of bad design. He previously blamed material fault.

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To put a bit of context into why the IMOCA class chose mast and keels to be restricted, you need to remember the 60foot Multihull circuit that was enormously successful in France before it became a victim of its own success and spectacularly imploded around 2004-2005 - thanks in no small part to the runaway success of Groupama2.

 

The boats became massively expensive to build, run and repair with large professional teams that they tries to defray by using the boats in both shorthanded classics such as the biennial TJV, RdeR and Transat (quadrennial) - and then have fully crewed GP events in regional ports with an occasional long distanced fully crewed event like a Round Europe Race.

 

The budgets got ahead of the returns that sponsors could re-coup. There were a couple of events where the fleet got decimated in large storms in Biscay at the start of the shorthanded classics and suddenly the class had lost it sponsors who said no to new builds and massively expensive refit costs. The boats were not suited to be both inshore fully crewed and offshore shorthanded.

 

The IMOCA's offered similar levels of exposure or greater, for far less expenditure. The emphasis switched to them and the multis died, much to the dismay of many like myself.

 

From what I can gather, the IMOCA class is trying to walk a fairly narrow line between keeping the contest open, fair and competitive as well as providing a platform that Sponsors can use to support their products, messages, ideals or whatever.

 

Now remember that we are a particularly unusual audience - we are intensely interested in the boats and all the related aspects - but for the very vast majority of the Vendee audience - they see cool boats doing "adventurous" deeds. The fact that the boats are no longer "truly open" does not matter a jot - and makes the whole exercise more affordable as well as giving the older generation of boats an opportunity to compete. So the fleet size stays high and the event maintains a massive carnival feel.

 

Teams in the previous editions who had used ultra high modulus carbon masts and keels - had led the race to a perilous point of attrition where countries such as Australia were getting serious political pressure for having to carry out highly expensive rescue missions to fetch some poor souls near antartica out of the ocean - this sort of publicity made the sponsors nervous and for a while the whole race looked in danger of becoming legislated out of existence. At least they are trying not to let history repeat itself. Yes, some teams still have outrageous budgets - but at least some effort is made to restrict spending.

 

This is why we are where we are. I agree, it is not what I would want to see, but at least we have a well supported race with a decent number of new builds - it will be fascinating all the same........

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There was never a good reason to force any kind of "one-design" on the class for such a significant parts of a racing boat as the keel and mast.

 

Then why do you think 80% of the members (who are the boat owners and skippers) voted it in?

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The problems with keels was quite clear. Despite years of assurances, the designers had not demonstrated that they could deliver a safe keel. It wasn't a matter of money or design capability or fabrication capability. They had had year after year to show they had the problem under control, and yet only hours into the Vendée, Safran's keel fell off, to be followed by two more. Safran is one of the top end, deep pocketed, money no-object teams. They had made a lot of their fabricated titanium keel, its ion-welded form etc. And it fell off. This is the company that makes the titanium undercarriages for some of the worlds largest planes, planes that take off and land day in and day out under extraordinary loads. But they couldn't design a keel that didn't fail. Excuses about the number of cycles it had done being more than estimated were trotted out. Basically an admission that they still didn't have a clue what they were doing. The keel failed well short of half way into its design life. Eventually you have to call enough is enough. If they can't get it right after all this time, who seriously believes "this time for sure" ?

 

It isn't as if the keel fin is an element that provides any real opportunities for development. About all that was happening was a reduction in fin mass, so as to get the centre of mass of the keel lower. That isn't rocket science. It is hardly a contribution to the state of the art worthy of praise and encouragement. It was simply pushing the edge of safety versus razor thin performance gains. With a history of multiple failures every race for years, this was clearly a worthless path, and one that would almost certainly eventually lead to a fatality.

 

There is a good chance that we might start to see races that are not simply demolition derbys, races where the winner is as much the dumb luck of not pulling out with a stupid and avoidable damage as seamanship. Everyone wins.

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There was never a good reason to force any kind of "one-design" on the class for such a significant parts of a racing boat as the keel and mast.

 

Then why do you think 80% of the members (who are the boat owners and skippers) voted it in?

 

We know you are American Mr Clean. Democracy rules. An 80% vote in favour. Must be right then!

 

This forum is like Chinese Whispers. I have a point of view, write it down quite clearly, then sit back and watch the comments from all the folk who choose to ignore the main thrust of what I said and comment back out of context.

What I actually said was that (admittedly with hindsight) I think making keels and mast on Imocas one-design was a mistake. The fact that lots of people vote for something doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea. Watching what is happening with the Imocas right now I definitely think it was a mistake. If Imoca really needed to make rules to make keels and mast more reliable there were other, better ways of doing it. Imoca made a knee-jerk politically correct reaction and should have though of a better way. Just my view. I am with the 20% who didn't vote for the change.

 

The boats are now no longer the most interesting ocean racing monohulls around, and now the mini 6.50's have unquestionably taken over that pole position. I actually suggested that an open version of the Class 40 might be what the sport needs, because the 6.50 really is rather a small boat with which to explore cutting edge design for ocean Racing.

 

None of the guys criticising my post seemed to notice this. All they did was jump in with both feet defending the moves towards one-design.

 

Only those who agree with me seem to have actually read and seriously thought about the issue. These "Nanny State" safety driven rules are the death knell for a development class. Historically there was a case for the boats needing to be more reliable. I think that would have happened anyway due to natural evolution, (single handed skippers do want to finish!!! and most are not stupid), but to kow-tow to the politically correct, better reliability could have been achieved quite easily by rule changes which would still have left the designer free to design all of the boat.

 

I really do not see the cost arguement holding water. The leading teams in the current fleet of Imocas do not exactly seem to be running on a shoestring, and those with limited budgets are not on the front line of the grid, so it is still the case that spending lots of money gets you a faster boat. Nothing has changed there.

 

If Imocas are nevertheless to remain "fixed" as regards mast and keel, what about my suggestion that an open Class 40 would be good for the sport. They would certainly be a lot cheaper than an Imoca, yet they would be more "ocean capable" than a mini, and the Class 40 is a great fleet with lots of boats and plenty of races. I would love to see a "proto class" racing with the Class 40s.

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There was never a good reason to force any kind of "one-design" on the class for such a significant parts of a racing boat as the keel and mast.

 

Then why do you think 80% of the members (who are the boat owners and skippers) voted it in?

 

We know you are American Mr Clean. Democracy rules. An 80% vote in favour. Must be right then!

 

This forum is like Chinese Whispers. I have a point of view, write it down quite clearly, then sit back and watch the comments from all the folk who choose to ignore the main thrust of what I said and comment back out of context.

What I actually said was that (admittedly with hindsight) I think making keels and mast on Imocas one-design was a mistake. The fact that lots of people vote for something doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea. Watching what is happening with the Imocas right now I definitely think it was a mistake. If Imoca really needed to make rules to make keels and mast more reliable there were other, better ways of doing it. Imoca made a knee-jerk politically correct reaction and should have though of a better way. Just my view. I am with the 20% who didn't vote for the change.

 

The boats are now no longer the most interesting ocean racing monohulls around, and now the mini 6.50's have unquestionably taken over that pole position. I actually suggested that an open version of the Class 40 might be what the sport needs, because the 6.50 really is rather a small boat with which to explore cutting edge design for ocean Racing.

 

None of the guys criticising my post seemed to notice this. All they did was jump in with both feet defending the moves towards one-design.

 

Only those who agree with me seem to have actually read and seriously thought about the issue. These "Nanny State" safety driven rules are the death knell for a development class. Historically there was a case for the boats needing to be more reliable. I think that would have happened anyway due to natural evolution, (single handed skippers do want to finish!!! and most are not stupid), but to kow-tow to the politically correct, better reliability could have been achieved quite easily by rule changes which would still have left the designer free to design all of the boat.

 

I really do not see the cost arguement holding water. The leading teams in the current fleet of Imocas do not exactly seem to be running on a shoestring, and those with limited budgets are not on the front line of the grid, so it is still the case that spending lots of money gets you a faster boat. Nothing has changed there.

 

If Imocas are nevertheless to remain "fixed" as regards mast and keel, what about my suggestion that an open Class 40 would be good for the sport. They would certainly be a lot cheaper than an Imoca, yet they would be more "ocean capable" than a mini, and the Class 40 is a great fleet with lots of boats and plenty of races. I would love to see a "proto class" racing with the Class 40s.

 

I like the suggestion of a proto Open 40. Imagine a scow mini at that size.

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There was never a good reason to force any kind of "one-design" on the class for such a significant parts of a racing boat as the keel and mast.

 

Then why do you think 80% of the members (who are the boat owners and skippers) voted it in?

 

We know you are American Mr Clean. Democracy rules. An 80% vote in favour. Must be right then!

 

This forum is like Chinese Whispers. I have a point of view, write it down quite clearly, then sit back and watch the comments from all the folk who choose to ignore the main thrust of what I said and comment back out of context.

What I actually said was that (admittedly with hindsight) I think making keels and mast on Imocas one-design was a mistake. The fact that lots of people vote for something doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea. Watching what is happening with the Imocas right now I definitely think it was a mistake. If Imoca really needed to make rules to make keels and mast more reliable there were other, better ways of doing it. Imoca made a knee-jerk politically correct reaction and should have though of a better way. Just my view. I am with the 20% who didn't vote for the change.

 

The boats are now no longer the most interesting ocean racing monohulls around, and now the mini 6.50's have unquestionably taken over that pole position. I actually suggested that an open version of the Class 40 might be what the sport needs, because the 6.50 really is rather a small boat with which to explore cutting edge design for ocean Racing.

 

None of the guys criticising my post seemed to notice this. All they did was jump in with both feet defending the moves towards one-design.

 

Only those who agree with me seem to have actually read and seriously thought about the issue. These "Nanny State" safety driven rules are the death knell for a development class. Historically there was a case for the boats needing to be more reliable. I think that would have happened anyway due to natural evolution, (single handed skippers do want to finish!!! and most are not stupid), but to kow-tow to the politically correct, better reliability could have been achieved quite easily by rule changes which would still have left the designer free to design all of the boat.

 

I really do not see the cost arguement holding water. The leading teams in the current fleet of Imocas do not exactly seem to be running on a shoestring, and those with limited budgets are not on the front line of the grid, so it is still the case that spending lots of money gets you a faster boat. Nothing has changed there.

 

If Imocas are nevertheless to remain "fixed" as regards mast and keel, what about my suggestion that an open Class 40 would be good for the sport. They would certainly be a lot cheaper than an Imoca, yet they would be more "ocean capable" than a mini, and the Class 40 is a great fleet with lots of boats and plenty of races. I would love to see a "proto class" racing with the Class 40s.

 

I like the suggestion of a proto Open 40. Imagine a scow mini at that size.

 

I wish they would just open up the IMOCA rule again for masts and keels and also allow wider scope in hull shape. They should allow full scows. Foils are fine but no automated foil control systems please. The mini's are more interesting now and that's not how it should be.

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Francis,

 

Did you really just say that there is no reason to pursue weight reduction or lowering of CG in a canting keel monohull? Wow. Just wow.

 

JB5,

 

Did you really just say that pursuit of foil design is great, but foil control systems are a no go? Wow. Just wow.

 

Do you guys read what you write?

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Francis,

 

Did you really just say that there is no reason to pursue weight reduction or lowering of CG in a canting keel monohull? Wow. Just wow.

 

JB5,

 

Did you really just say that pursuit of foil design is great, but foil control systems are a no go? Wow. Just wow.

 

Do you guys read what you write?

Yeah, don't know what FV has been smoking!

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There was never a good reason to force any kind of "one-design" on the class for such a significant parts of a racing boat as the keel and mast.

 

Then why do you think 80% of the members (who are the boat owners and skippers) voted it in?

We know you are American Mr Clean. Democracy rules. An 80% vote in favour. Must be right then!

This forum is like Chinese Whispers. I have a point of view, write it down quite clearly, then sit back and watch the comments from all the folk who choose to ignore the main thrust of what I said and comment back out of context.

What I actually said was that (admittedly with hindsight) I think making keels and mast on Imocas one-design was a mistake. The fact that lots of people vote for something doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea. Watching what is happening with the Imocas right now I definitely think it was a mistake. If Imoca really needed to make rules to make keels and mast more reliable there were other, better ways of doing it. Imoca made a knee-jerk politically correct reaction and should have though of a better way. Just my view. I am with the 20% who didn't vote for the change.

The boats are now no longer the most interesting ocean racing monohulls around, and now the mini 6.50's have unquestionably taken over that pole position. I actually suggested that an open version of the Class 40 might be what the sport needs, because the 6.50 really is rather a small boat with which to explore cutting edge design for ocean Racing.

None of the guys criticising my post seemed to notice this. All they did was jump in with both feet defending the moves towards one-design.

Only those who agree with me seem to have actually read and seriously thought about the issue. These "Nanny State" safety driven rules are the death knell for a development class. Historically there was a case for the boats needing to be more reliable. I think that would have happened anyway due to natural evolution, (single handed skippers do want to finish!!! and most are not stupid), but to kow-tow to the politically correct, better reliability could have been achieved quite easily by rule changes which would still have left the designer free to design all of the boat.

I really do not see the cost arguement holding water. The leading teams in the current fleet of Imocas do not exactly seem to be running on a shoestring, and those with limited budgets are not on the front line of the grid, so it is still the case that spending lots of money gets you a faster boat. Nothing has changed there.

If Imocas are nevertheless to remain "fixed" as regards mast and keel, what about my suggestion that an open Class 40 would be good for the sport. They would certainly be a lot cheaper than an Imoca, yet they would be more "ocean capable" than a mini, and the Class 40 is a great fleet with lots of boats and plenty of races. I would love to see a "proto class" racing with the Class 40s.

Getting bored of the whole scow mini thing. 2 scows in the mini fleet, one that didn't get much attention and leaving the fleet for dead (the same it's older brother 747 has been for the last few years) then some butt ugly green one that's getting it's ass kicked, nothing much happening there right now.

 

Also the class 40 used to be a proto open class, it was called the Open 40 class and it was a failure. The French have already escalated the budgets of the class 40 fleet to the point where it's no longer the same class that it started out to be...a cheaper, safer alternative to the over expensive open 40s. Volume of new boats being built is evidence of this. There have been more imoca 60s launched than class 40s recently. Now that the ban on titanium used in deck gear available on the open market has been lifted the budgets are continuing to rise. I think the imoca class is treading a very fine line at the moment between areas for development and safety. The new foils have taken the attention away from the masts and keels moving to one design, heck some people here still believe HB has the only rotating wing mast...

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If they don't have standardised tests and certified builders for the keels, it is understandable that they chose to go one design to make sure that unnecessary risks are avoided. Interestingly these smaller classes, although cheaper, also generate less public interest, so in the end usually almost as hard to fund. I think the biggest chance of seeing something revolutionary is to hope for some rich guy to build a ridiculously hi-tech boat.

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There was never a good reason to force any kind of "one-design" on the class for such a significant parts of a racing boat as the keel and mast.

 

Then why do you think 80% of the members (who are the boat owners and skippers) voted it in?

We know you are American Mr Clean. Democracy rules. An 80% vote in favour. Must be right then!

This forum is like Chinese Whispers. I have a point of view, write it down quite clearly, then sit back and watch the comments from all the folk who choose to ignore the main thrust of what I said and comment back out of context.

What I actually said was that (admittedly with hindsight) I think making keels and mast on Imocas one-design was a mistake. The fact that lots of people vote for something doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea. Watching what is happening with the Imocas right now I definitely think it was a mistake. If Imoca really needed to make rules to make keels and mast more reliable there were other, better ways of doing it. Imoca made a knee-jerk politically correct reaction and should have though of a better way. Just my view. I am with the 20% who didn't vote for the change.

The boats are now no longer the most interesting ocean racing monohulls around, and now the mini 6.50's have unquestionably taken over that pole position. I actually suggested that an open version of the Class 40 might be what the sport needs, because the 6.50 really is rather a small boat with which to explore cutting edge design for ocean Racing.

None of the guys criticising my post seemed to notice this. All they did was jump in with both feet defending the moves towards one-design.

Only those who agree with me seem to have actually read and seriously thought about the issue. These "Nanny State" safety driven rules are the death knell for a development class. Historically there was a case for the boats needing to be more reliable. I think that would have happened anyway due to natural evolution, (single handed skippers do want to finish!!! and most are not stupid), but to kow-tow to the politically correct, better reliability could have been achieved quite easily by rule changes which would still have left the designer free to design all of the boat.

I really do not see the cost arguement holding water. The leading teams in the current fleet of Imocas do not exactly seem to be running on a shoestring, and those with limited budgets are not on the front line of the grid, so it is still the case that spending lots of money gets you a faster boat. Nothing has changed there.

If Imocas are nevertheless to remain "fixed" as regards mast and keel, what about my suggestion that an open Class 40 would be good for the sport. They would certainly be a lot cheaper than an Imoca, yet they would be more "ocean capable" than a mini, and the Class 40 is a great fleet with lots of boats and plenty of races. I would love to see a "proto class" racing with the Class 40s.

Getting bored of the whole scow mini thing. 2 scows in the mini fleet, one that didn't get much attention and leaving the fleet for dead (the same it's older brother 747 has been for the last few years) then some butt ugly green one that's getting it's ass kicked, nothing much happening there right now.

 

Also the class 40 used to be a proto open class, it was called the Open 40 class and it was a failure. The French have already escalated the budgets of the class 40 fleet to the point where it's no longer the same class that it started out to be...a cheaper, safer alternative to the over expensive open 40s. Volume of new boats being built is evidence of this. There have been more imoca 60s launched than class 40s recently. Now that the ban on titanium used in deck gear available on the open market has been lifted the budgets are continuing to rise. I think the imoca class is treading a very fine line at the moment between areas for development and safety. The new foils have taken the attention away from the masts and keels moving to one design, heck some people here still believe HB has the only rotating wing mast...

I think the situation in the Class 40 is a bit more nuanced than that. New builds slowed down in 2009 as the economy crashed. Even now, the euro economy still has its challenges and that trickles through to the sponsorship space which further limits new builds.

 

Layer on top of that the emergence of a vibrant secondary market at price points from 150 K to 350 K and that siphon a certain amount of new build volume.

 

The class has been pretty careful about preserving the value and competitive of the fleet. Allowing titanium was simple recognition that much of the new equipment in the market has components that are titanium. Just look at the newest model of the Spinlock XX0812 clutch, a favorite in the fleet. At the same time, we still forbid lots of other things that could accelerate the arms war.

 

I don't see us doing a proto Class 40. The vibrancy of the class comes from the close racing in good sized fleets. When something comes up that threatens to substantially change the balance, we act. It's about controlled development. A proto would crush that dynamic.

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For the class to remain alive and well it simply can't produce a junkyard full of outdated hulls after every one or two Vendees. IMOCA and the Mini's alike have done a grand job IMO in preventing undue obsolecese, yet allowing/encouraging just enough mods to keep the class fresh each time it comes around and us enthralled. If that wasn't the case this thread would be dead. As mentioned here already, look what happened to the pitchpolers when they allowed themselves a free for all.

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^For radical new offshore designs, I think a SR3 like project would be more appropriate and then one could hopefully see some inventions trickle down. Too much risk in a VG race

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Getting bored of the whole scow mini thing. 2 scows in the mini fleet, one that didn't get much attention and leaving the fleet for dead (the same it's older brother 747 has been for the last few years) then some butt ugly green one that's getting it's ass kicked, nothing much happening there right now.

 

Also the class 40 used to be a proto open class, it was called the Open 40 class and it was a failure. The French have already escalated the budgets of the class 40 fleet to the point where it's no longer the same class that it started out to be...a cheaper, safer alternative to the over expensive open 40s. Volume of new boats being built is evidence of this. There have been more imoca 60s launched than class 40s recently. Now that the ban on titanium used in deck gear available on the open market has been lifted the budgets are continuing to rise. I think the imoca class is treading a very fine line at the moment between areas for development and safety. The new foils have taken the attention away from the masts and keels moving to one design, heck some people here still believe HB has the only rotating wing mast...

 

 

agree, two of the longest standing offshore classes, both attracting again and again new names. Hard to argue against that. Specially for something so difficult to organize as an around the world race. Both organised by sailors-owners.

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Francis,

 

Did you really just say that there is no reason to pursue weight reduction or lowering of CG in a canting keel monohull? Wow. Just wow.

 

If they only way to get the CG of the keel lower is to pull mass out of the fin and make it unsafe, then yes, there is no good reason to do so. You are not advancing the state of the art. If you can work out other ways of getting it lower, of course, go for it. But there are times when the engineering is simply just saying no; the system with current technology just won't go further and remain safe. An easy answer to pulling the CG down is a tungsten bulb, but they outlawed them. I didn't hear any wailing from the rafters on that one. I have no objection to weight reduction anywhere that doesn't make the design unsafe. But history has shown that no matter how much money is thrown at the problem, no matter how many rock star engineers mess about and provide assurances, they can't do it. They can't design a fabricated keel fin that won't break. So just stop pissing about, stop losing boats before someone dies, and move onto something where they can make a useful difference to the state of the art, because they were not.

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There was never a good reason to force any kind of "one-design" on the class for such a significant parts of a racing boat as the keel and mast.

Then why do you think 80% of the members (who are the boat owners and skippers) voted it in?

We know you are American Mr Clean. Democracy rules. An 80% vote in favour. Must be right then!

This forum is like Chinese Whispers. I have a point of view, write it down quite clearly, then sit back and watch the comments from all the folk who choose to ignore the main thrust of what I said and comment back out of context.

What I actually said was that (admittedly with hindsight) I think making keels and mast on Imocas one-design was a mistake. The fact that lots of people vote for something doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea. Watching what is happening with the Imocas right now I definitely think it was a mistake. If Imoca really needed to make rules to make keels and mast more reliable there were other, better ways of doing it. Imoca made a knee-jerk politically correct reaction and should have though of a better way. Just my view. I am with the 20% who didn't vote for the change.

The boats are now no longer the most interesting ocean racing monohulls around, and now the mini 6.50's have unquestionably taken over that pole position. I actually suggested that an open version of the Class 40 might be what the sport needs, because the 6.50 really is rather a small boat with which to explore cutting edge design for ocean Racing.

None of the guys criticising my post seemed to notice this. All they did was jump in with both feet defending the moves towards one-design.

Only those who agree with me seem to have actually read and seriously thought about the issue. These "Nanny State" safety driven rules are the death knell for a development class. Historically there was a case for the boats needing to be more reliable. I think that would have happened anyway due to natural evolution, (single handed skippers do want to finish!!! and most are not stupid), but to kow-tow to the politically correct, better reliability could have been achieved quite easily by rule changes which would still have left the designer free to design all of the boat.

I really do not see the cost arguement holding water. The leading teams in the current fleet of Imocas do not exactly seem to be running on a shoestring, and those with limited budgets are not on the front line of the grid, so it is still the case that spending lots of money gets you a faster boat. Nothing has changed there.

If Imocas are nevertheless to remain "fixed" as regards mast and keel, what about my suggestion that an open Class 40 would be good for the sport. They would certainly be a lot cheaper than an Imoca, yet they would be more "ocean capable" than a mini, and the Class 40 is a great fleet with lots of boats and plenty of races. I would love to see a "proto class" racing with the Class 40s.

Getting bored of the whole scow mini thing. 2 scows in the mini fleet, one that didn't get much attention and leaving the fleet for dead (the same it's older brother 747 has been for the last few years) then some butt ugly green one that's getting it's ass kicked, nothing much happening there right now.

 

Also the class 40 used to be a proto open class, it was called the Open 40 class and it was a failure. The French have already escalated the budgets of the class 40 fleet to the point where it's no longer the same class that it started out to be...a cheaper, safer alternative to the over expensive open 40s. Volume of new boats being built is evidence of this. There have been more imoca 60s launched than class 40s recently. Now that the ban on titanium used in deck gear available on the open market has been lifted the budgets are continuing to rise. I think the imoca class is treading a very fine line at the moment between areas for development and safety. The new foils have taken the attention away from the masts and keels moving to one design, heck some people here still believe HB has the only rotating wing mast...

 

That was a 2 minute brain fart... not something I really believed...

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When you say biggest arms race since 2006/07- what was the big race then with tech?

I mean it's foils this time, but what was the big advance that time?

Money, lots and lots of lovely money.

There was a great diversity of designers as the class design at the time were probably the Farrs but there were a lot of others. Finot, Juan Alphabet, Owen-Clarke, Humphries and some other geezers so everybody was trying different things but the main thing was that Europe's economy was on fast boil and everybody had money to sponsor boats.

 

 

How much $ are saved with the one design keels and masts? Probably a decent amount just on the steel v. carbon keel strut.

 

Agree that restricting hull shape while leaving it "open" is dumb. Only keeps older boats competitive, which is not what an "open" class is supposed to be.

Maybe not as much as you think stainless steel might be relatively cheap but making a large forging like that is not.

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Welbourne with DSS and Juank later both proposed much lighter smaller and faster bosts using foils that would have to have been way more cost effective than these boats.

I've got a feeling that Welbourne's design for a DSS IMOCA would work under the current rules. The concept was a skinny, fixed keel boat with the foil to stabilise it. In fact, I recall comments that the beam was matched to the spreader width for the latest one design mast.

 

I haven't seen the JuanK foiler concept. Sounds interesting, though similar to what Welbourne is doing.

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I know JuanK has his fair share of design and boat longevity critics, but the now ex Telefonica VO70 is still travelling well with some tweaking and still sitting under the same rig she went around the planet in for 3rd place plus a couple of S2H to boot.

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There was never a good reason to force any kind of "one-design" on the class for such a significant parts of a racing boat as the keel and mast.

 

Then why do you think 80% of the members (who are the boat owners and skippers) voted it in?

 

We know you are American Mr Clean. Democracy rules. An 80% vote in favour. Must be right then!

 

This forum is like Chinese Whispers. I have a point of view, write it down quite clearly, then sit back and watch the comments from all the folk who choose to ignore the main thrust of what I said and comment back out of context.

What I actually said was that (admittedly with hindsight) I think making keels and mast on Imocas one-design was a mistake. The fact that lots of people vote for something doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea. Watching what is happening with the Imocas right now I definitely think it was a mistake. If Imoca really needed to make rules to make keels and mast more reliable there were other, better ways of doing it. Imoca made a knee-jerk politically correct reaction and should have though of a better way. Just my view. I am with the 20% who didn't vote for the change.

 

The boats are now no longer the most interesting ocean racing monohulls around, and now the mini 6.50's have unquestionably taken over that pole position. I actually suggested that an open version of the Class 40 might be what the sport needs, because the 6.50 really is rather a small boat with which to explore cutting edge design for ocean Racing.

 

None of the guys criticising my post seemed to notice this. All they did was jump in with both feet defending the moves towards one-design.

 

 

 

 

You seem not to know the history on this one. I find it hard to call a decision that took 3 years of hard work, endless debate, and multiple votes to finally pass "knee-jerk".

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But I'll ask Alex today. I seem to be the first reporter in the world to be allowed to sail on a new foiling Open 60. If you have questions for Alex or about the new Boss, post them in the thread I'm putting up in a minute. We go for an overnight sail this arvo.

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But I'll ask Alex today. I seem to be the first reporter in the world to be allowed to sail on a new foiling Open 60. If you have questions for Alex or about the new Boss, post them in the thread I'm putting up in a minute. We go for an overnight sail this arvo.

Hope you have a great time. Looking forward to hearing all about it.

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Has anyone seen a writeup of a moustache boat yet that isn't an official press release? Been looking but haven't found anything first-person yet, not even in French.

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It's not about you.......... It's about the BOAT (and Alex's campaign)

 

Try to recall all the other fabulous exclusives you have had to report on - BUT FAILED to deliver the goods.............

 

Kick a Goal, this time, and do your duty.

 

Pictures, tech details and videos - leave out the prose.

 

Under promise and Over Deliver.

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It's not about you..........

 

Under promise and Over Deliver.

Yes it is. Can't you hear him beating his chest from where you are?

 

Don't hold your breath waiting on that last one.

 

 

 

Good luck, Clean. Have fun. Can't wait to hear and read your report.

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But I'll ask Alex today. I seem to be the first reporter in the world to be allowed to sail on a new foiling Open 60. If you have questions for Alex or about the new Boss, post them in the thread I'm putting up in a minute. We go for an overnight sail this arvo.

 

Foiling?! Foil assist for sure but I haven't seen full flying-normally defined as "foiling" -yet. But I'm looking forward to it......

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It's not about you..........

 

Under promise and Over Deliver.

Yes it is. Can't you hear him beating his chest from where you are?

 

Don't hold your breath waiting on that last one.

 

 

 

Good luck, Clean. Have fun. Can't wait to hear and read your report.

Hopefully it will come with sub titles so we don't have to listen.

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It's not about you.......... It's about the BOAT (and Alex's campaign)

 

Try to recall all the other fabulous exclusives you have had to report on - BUT FAILED to deliver the goods.............

 

Kick a Goal, this time, and do your duty.

 

Pictures, tech details and videos - leave out the prose.

 

Under promise and Over Deliver.

like gun boat 40?

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It's not about you..........

 

Under promise and Over Deliver.

Yes it is. Can't you hear him beating his chest from where you are?

 

Don't hold your breath waiting on that last one.

 

 

 

Good luck, Clean. Have fun. Can't wait to hear and read your report.

Hopefully it will come with sub titles so we don't have to listen.

 

 

Now that is just wishful thinking. If only we could be so lucky.

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post-35226-0-05311800-1444756076_thumb.jpgpost-35226-0-91849900-1444756117_thumb.jpg

The bow and foil on Virbac, (spray deflecting features like on Gitana) and one way people grow up with an interest in sailboat racing in France; a school visit climbing all over Banque Pop.

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attachicon.gifIMG_3375.jpgattachicon.gifIMG_3374.jpg

The bow and foil on Virbac, (spray deflecting features like on Gitana) and one way people grow up with an interest in sailboat racing in France; a school visit climbing all over Banque Pop.

These IMOCA 60 guys know how to work their sponsorships don't they. Of course, kids need to learn about money too - who better to get them hooked than a bank!

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But I'll ask Alex today. I seem to be the first reporter in the world to be allowed to sail on a new foiling Open 60. If you have questions for Alex or about the new Boss, post them in the thread I'm putting up in a minute. We go for an overnight sail this arvo.

 

G'day Mr Clean. Looking forward to your report.

 

I'm interested in Alex's choice to go back to a wing mast/deck spreader set up, having settled on conventional rigs for a while. I think the original VPLP/Verdier plans for this new Hugo Boss showed a conventional rig. What was his thinking there?

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It's not about you.......... It's about the BOAT (and Alex's campaign)

 

Exactly wrong. It is about Alex.

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This months yachts and yachting magazine gave a small insight into the deference so between all the new vplp 60s BP and safran were designed to be used without foils of need be, gitana and virbac designed to be narrower and more optimised for the foil and HB designed to be narrower still than gitana and virbac and completely designed around the foil. It seems the new generation of Imocas can be split into another 3 generations

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https://www.facebook.com/184912304957750/videos/853866838062290/ Video from StM-Virbac in lighter winds. Although it seems like those foils manage to lift the bow a bit at the end, it's hard to tell how effective they will turn out to be

 

At the end of this video you can see the bow doesn't touch the water for a long while and at one point the first section of the boat is also out of the water. That also looked very fast for flatish water.

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Nah Clean, you have been called out.

 

Not just by me, but by all those others above. Even the dOuGsTeR had a pop. :huh:

 

So prove us all exactly wrong and do what you have failed to do so many times before.

 

I remain capable of being surprised.

 

I double dare you.

 

(Not holding my breath by the way......)

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Nah Clean, you have been called out.

 

Not just by me, but by all those others above. Even the dOuGsTeR had a pop. :huh:

 

So prove us all exactly wrong and do what you have failed to do so many times before.

 

I remain capable of being surprised.

 

I double dare you.

 

(Not holding my breath by the way......)

 

Kindly eat my fuck

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Any news about that Italian boat. In whose ownership will it end up?

Here (link in italian): http://www.velablog.it/storie-di-vela/port-la-foret-di-marco-giudici?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Velablog+%28VelaBlog%29

they say it's been sold to MICHEL DESJOYEAUX

 

According to the earlier info, he or rather his company, was indeed involved in the purchase, but it was unclear who would be the final owner

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Any news about that Italian boat. In whose ownership will it end up?

Here (link in italian): http://www.velablog.it/storie-di-vela/port-la-foret-di-marco-giudici?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Velablog+%28VelaBlog%29

they say it's been sold to MICHEL DESJOYEAUX

 

According to the earlier info, he or rather his company, was indeed involved in the purchase, but it was unclear who would be the final owner

 

 

In an article on the Vendée Globe site (24/09/18) :

 

« On Internet and social networks, rumours began to spread that the boat had been sold. Some of these stories indicated that a businessman wishing to race in the next Vendée Globe had acquired her and that he had called upon a leading French ocean racing team to run the project. »

 

article (in English) :

http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/news/article/14944/andrea-mura-s-new-boat-has-been-sold.html

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re: #962 Yup, that was the info I had, but we don't know who this "businessman" is

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GREAT video from PRB

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GREAT video from PRB

+1

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GREAT video from PRB

 

 

Really great on board view. They're obviously waiting to see more data before making the switch, but the off wind performance of the new boats is pretty amazing. The question is, can the mustache boats build a big enough advantage in the South to hold off the straight boards from Cape Horn to the finish. This will be great to follow.

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GREAT video from PRB

 

 

Really great on board view. They're obviously waiting to see more data before making the switch, but the off wind performance of the new boats is pretty amazing. The question is, can the mustache boats build a big enough advantage in the South to hold off the straight boards from Cape Horn to the finish. This will be great to follow.

 

Once they're back up to about 30 degrees south, I don't think it will be much of a problem since the winds tend easterly, then westerly.

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So... light air comparison. Fastnet, the Class 40 had the same start as the IMOCA. Very light air, an apparent wind, current assisted challenge.

 

Dragon won the start by a country mile. 26 miles down the course, we are existing the Solent still crossing tacks with the back of the 60s, and in touch with the others.

 

Then the wind got to the teens, and they took off like scalded cats.

 

Monday night, wind dies and the 40s pull back into range. They crawl up towards Wales, we go straight. Wind picks up again, they zoom off.

 

All I can say is that they better have wind. The 'staches are fucking god awful slow in the light stuff.

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I was gutted for Vincent Riou in the last vender globe, still probably my favourite 60 out there. At least they've converted from curved toed out boards to toed in boards placed outboard. Certainly my pick of the conventional 60s. It would have been interesting to see how HB performed in the fastnet in the light stuff being narrower than the other new boats. Not sure how effective the one design keel is at reducing leeway by itself but a narrower boat will have helped

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time to get sweary but not time to post anything of value...

 

another mythical vid report like TNZ ;)

 

good work clean.

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Wow, amazing machines, since imoca went away most of that creative energy has been focused here with impressive results.

The prb vid is a great slice of what its like but the little cgi from gitana is unreal, the way they have reduced so many different kinds and amounts of drag in the past ten years, just unreal. Eg, the whole Humphreys, Richards deal about rotating the keel out of the water they achieve 90% of that without cutting their boats in half, etc etc.

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I think everyone is getting way too excited about these boats. They haven't proven a single thing yet. I bet that out of the 5 new boats starting the TJV this year, only 3 will finish, and only one of those will be in the podium in Itajai.

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That's a bold statement J a S. How much are you betting? :)

 

How long as HB been sailing? A week? Every video we've seen of these boats is in heavy air, reaching conditions. Pretty sure they won't see that the entire race. Attrition in new IMOCA boats is rough. In 2011 (the last time the TJV was the year BEFORE the VG), 2 of the 5 latest gen boats DNFed, and 2 of the remainder were in the top 3. In 2007 (same situation with the TJV and VG schedule), there were 8 new boats, only TWO of those were in the top 3.

 

I'd feel REALLY good betting on SMA (ex Macif). They've had the boat for almost a year now and have already had some successes on it. Mich Des on a proven boat (both in the VG and the TJV)? Not a bad combo to have...

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So you're willing to put money on it?

 

The TJV is a tune-up race for the IMOCA's and there's a lot of downwind and reaching to Brazil from La Havre, so I think we could see a mustache boat overcome the inconvenient "leaving Europe" part of the race.

 

For reference, a new boat has won 3 of the last 4 Vendee Globes. Desjoyeaux/PRB, Riou/PRB (same boat), Desjoyeaux/Foncia, Gabart/Macif. Michel Desjoyeax had his hand in all of those victories. I'd put my money on the design he supports for the next Vendee.

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So you're willing to put money on it?

 

The TJV is a tune-up race for the IMOCA's and there's a lot of downwind and reaching to Brazil from La Havre, so I think we could see a mustache boat overcome the inconvenient "leaving Europe" part of the race.

 

For reference, a new boat has won 3 of the last 4 Vendee Globes. Desjoyeaux/PRB, Riou/PRB (same boat), Desjoyeaux/Foncia, Gabart/Macif. Michel Desjoyeax had his hand in all of those victories. I'd put my money on the design he supports for the next Vendee.

 

Nope, I'd never bet on a sailing race. Too much shit to go wrong. All it takes is one random-ass container from the El Faro floating around to end someone's race. I just think these mustache boats aren't going to blow away everyone else this time.

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I think everyone is getting way too excited about these boats. They haven't proven a single thing yet. I bet that out of the 5 new boats starting the TJV this year, only 3 will finish, and only one of those will be in the podium in Itajai.

 

Retirements are not unlikely as there just hasn't been enough time to properly test foils, but the excitement has plenty of basis in fact. And a lot of data points that I unfortunately can't share with y'all just yet. What I'm seeing with the latest generation is a chance for a huge performance boost compared to the fractional jumps between previous generations, but it's a jump that probably won't show all that much until the Vendee both because of the lack of dev time for the TJV and B2B, and also because of the more all-around nature of those races compared to the reaching-centric nature of a RTW course.

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JL to save me hunting what is the beam difference with HB in comparison?

Unsure of any exact number but it was told in the latest Yachts & Yachting magazine in their feature on the latest imoca 60s they talked about different aspects of their designs. Although they were giving no clues about the foils.

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I think everyone is getting way too excited about these boats. They haven't proven a single thing yet. I bet that out of the 5 new boats starting the TJV this year, only 3 will finish, and only one of those will be in the podium in Itajai.

 

Retirements are not unlikely as there just hasn't been enough time to properly test foils, but the excitement has plenty of basis in fact. And a lot of data points that I unfortunately can't share with y'all just yet. What I'm seeing with the latest generation is a chance for a huge performance boost compared to the fractional jumps between previous generations, but it's a jump that probably won't show all that much until the Vendee both because of the lack of dev time for the TJV and B2B, and also because of the more all-around nature of those races compared to the reaching-centric nature of a RTW course.

 

 

Exactly. I'm excited to see what they offer with more testing/development, but it's too early to be expecting huge leaps.

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JL to save me hunting what is the beam difference with HB in comparison?

Unsure of any exact number but it was told in the latest Yachts & Yachting magazine in their feature on the latest imoca 60s they talked about different aspects of their designs. Although they were giving no clues about the foils.

 

 

Hmmmm here's what I've found: Safran, BP8, Virbac are all 5.80m. EdR/Gitana is 5.70m: http://www.transat-jacques-vabre.com/fr/edmond-de-rothschild-10

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I got a sniff that it was a fairly well known dutch sailor coming out of the RC44...Let's see if you can guess.

 

re: #962 Yup, that was the info I had, but we don't know who this "businessman" is

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I got a sniff that it was a fairly well known dutch sailor coming out of the RC44...Let's see if you can guess.

 

re: #962 Yup, that was the info I had, but we don't know who this "businessman" is

 

 

Gotta name it Poon Slayer...

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So you're willing to put money on it?

 

The TJV is a tune-up race for the IMOCA's and there's a lot of downwind and reaching to Brazil from La Havre, so I think we could see a mustache boat overcome the inconvenient "leaving Europe" part of the race.

 

For reference, a new boat has won 3 of the last 4 Vendee Globes. Desjoyeaux/PRB, Riou/PRB (same boat), Desjoyeaux/Foncia, Gabart/Macif. Michel Desjoyeax had his hand in all of those victories. I'd put my money on the design he supports for the next Vendee.

 

Nope, I'd never bet on a sailing race. Too much shit to go wrong. All it takes is one random-ass container from the El Faro floating around to end someone's race. I just think these mustache boats aren't going to blow away everyone else this time.

 

 

I hear you. They are definitely putting all of their eggs in one basket.

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I got a sniff that it was a fairly well known dutch sailor coming out of the RC44...Let's see if you can guess.

 

re: #962 Yup, that was the info I had, but we don't know who this "businessman" is

 

 

Gotta name it Poon Slayer...

 

Ok, apparently it wasn't Dirk. ;)

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If the Gitana vid is using real numbers it's amazing that the foil gives the same 5 deg hell change as canting the 3 tonne keel.

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I can't imagine how much a pair of the new foil-boards must cost. To make then strong enough for the endless dynamic loads of a RTW race cannot be an easy thing to do. Then, what must be done to the hull to keep the board from slicing down the hull in a collision with anything in the water @ 30kts? Yikes.

 

But I still want to sail on one and see what it's like.

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Post #960 - Clean:

"Kindly eat my fuck"

Post #973 - JALhazmat:

"time to get sweary but not time to post anything of value...

another mythical vid report like TNZ ;)

good work clean."

 

So we are all witnessing the true genius of Clean.

 

No report, no video, - situation normal.

 

Are you having Writer's BLOCK, Alan???????????????

 

 

 

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