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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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oioi

New imoca boats

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^Looks like some of the old orange is the new black and also Riou with a little help of JK have come to the conclusion that a a boat with straight foils would be faster in 75% of the weather scenarios while Beyou and others think that curved foils will be five days faster. Got a little lost in translation wrt their methods.

Because JK has such a good history of weighing up the benefits of foils vs traditional options.

 

Hmmmm. JK also once said the America's Cup wouldn't be won by a foiler, did he not?

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^Looks like some of the old orange is the new black and also Riou with a little help of JK have come to the conclusion that a a boat with straight foils would be faster in 75% of the weather scenarios while Beyou and others think that curved foils will be five days faster. Got a little lost in translation wrt their methods.

Because JK has such a good history of weighing up the benefits of foils vs traditional options.

 

Hmmmm. JK also once said the America's Cup wouldn't be won by a foiler, did he not?

 

Might have been his motivation for designing a boat that seemed to sail better off them than on them.

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^Looks like some of the old orange is the new black and also Riou with a little help of JK have come to the conclusion that a a boat with straight foils would be faster in 75% of the weather scenarios while Beyou and others think that curved foils will be five days faster. Got a little lost in translation wrt their methods.

Also PRB has won a lot of races since it was built so maybe they're hesitant to change a winning formula. Sometimes you get the answer you want...

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PRB is usually regarded as the lightest 60 ever and all the new restrictions on RM and mast do not apply to her. It was proven several times that the brute force approach is not the winning formula in the IMOCA so maybe in this case the increase in RM and decrease in displacement does not provide the same benefit over the well known disadvantages. Also I would not underestimate the VPP and weather modeling skills of JK for a RTW as demonstrated in the VO70.

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PRB is usually regarded as the lightest 60 ever and all the new restrictions on RM and mast do not apply to her. It was proven several times that the brute force approach is not the winning formula in the IMOCA so maybe in this case the increase in RM and decrease in displacement does not provide the same benefit over the well known disadvantages. Also I would not underestimate the VPP and weather modeling skills of JK for a RTW as demonstrated in the VO70.

 

Word

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+1, multiple boats did it before the TJV start, two RHIBs and a bunch of guys, just make sure it's wrapped in fenders so it doesn't sink...

 

HW

 

 

Hugo Boss back to water...

https://www.facebook.com/AlexThomsonRacing/?fref=nf

 

 

Without foils?!?!?!? -i do not think that it is easy to install them while aflot!

Any particular reason why it would be difficult to install foils with HB in the water? I have seen it done on another IMOCA foiler and it looked a pretty routine operation.

 

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Ok, was only a guess. Thanks!

 

 

 

+1, multiple boats did it before the TJV start, two RHIBs and a bunch of guys, just make sure it's wrapped in fenders so it doesn't sink...

 

HW

 

 

Hugo Boss back to water...

https://www.facebook.com/AlexThomsonRacing/?fref=nf

 

 

Without foils?!?!?!? -i do not think that it is easy to install them while aflot!

Any particular reason why it would be difficult to install foils with HB in the water? I have seen it done on another IMOCA foiler and it looked a pretty routine operation.

 

 

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No Way Back sailing

In the following article in Dutch he said he is not in de Vendee Globe to win but to finish the race.

He has a top boat and top experience but he is 64 years old.

Rich Wilson was 59 when he finished 9th in 2008/09.

 

http://www.zeilen.nl/nieuws/pieter-heerema-gaat-voor-kruisje-in-vendee-globe/

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No Way Back sailing

In the following article in Dutch he said he is not in de Vendee Globe to win but to finish the race.

He has a top boat and top experience but he is 64 years old.

Rich Wilson was 59 when he finished 9th in 2008/09.

 

http://www.zeilen.nl/nieuws/pieter-heerema-gaat-voor-kruisje-in-vendee-globe/

 

He's in the wrong boat if his only interest is in finishing- I would be going with one of the 2008/09 generation boats if that was my interest...

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No Way Back sailing

In the following article in Dutch he said he is not in de Vendee Globe to win but to finish the race.

He has a top boat and top experience but he is 64 years old.

Rich Wilson was 59 when he finished 9th in 2008/09.

 

http://www.zeilen.nl/nieuws/pieter-heerema-gaat-voor-kruisje-in-vendee-globe/

 

He's in the wrong boat if his only interest is in finishing- I would be going with one of the 2008/09 generation boats if that was my interest...

 

 

Millionaires only settle for the best and fanciest vehicle with full options :) (they are not shy for a discount though)

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If you aren't following the Canuckistanis on Snapchat, you could be. It's worth getting the app just for the videos they're posting about fixing their keel in the Azores. Username is oceanracers. They're doing a great job telling their story.

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And another Imoca hits the water:
Maitre coq skippered by Jeremie Beyou.
Cfc-J3oWQAAfQ6R.jpg

12512339_993457674022626_578707063814800
12932558_993457730689287_299235792303308

12928247_993848333983560_667192244411903

 

 

 

12932669_993848630650197_379997116996164
Looking very modern is my impression. Not sure she has side foils.
I don's see any slots for that.

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The pic of Maitre Coq from the nose with Jeremie standing there reminds me of 60 - 70's tumblehome design........ The bottom planning surface does not.....

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The pic of Maitre Coq from the nose with Jeremie standing there reminds me of 60 - 70's tumblehome design........ The bottom planning surface does not.....

Tumblehome, to reduce the inversed stability and why not to use the slant to fit foiling leeboards?

 

 

 

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Oops! Forgot something.

attachicon.gif160bwbow2.jpg

attachicon.gif160bwpic1.jpg

attachicon.gif160bwpic3.jpg

 

requires a pretty good pivot point! + like T foil rudders, they would be trouble to raise and lower at speed + you drag both the lifting and side force surfaces around whether foiling or not anyway..

what do you reckon the advantages are over the current setup? - that you get a more efficient daggerboard for upwind sailing etc?

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Does IMOCA rule allow those?

 

Looks cool

"The Imoca Class Rules allows only one plane of movement from any underwater appendage". So, there is a question. Instead of in and out with a mustache, I am going fore and aft on a single plan. But the angle of incidence of the side foil changes as the daggerboard part is retracted, which is not permitted. The system is more to save the boat to be sliced in half if something major hit a Dali foil. And clearly, the brake caused by the foil between all down and all up would be unacceptable. So, upon verification with the Class, I am not quite sure if it would be allowed. PS: I use the Imoca 60 for example, because in the news. But I can see another class or prototype to be a cheaper platform to experiment. See more about it in my Blog.

post-32003-0-50311300-1460468247_thumb.jpg

post-32003-0-42959400-1460468320_thumb.jpg

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I'm not doubting your concept, but wouldn't it make more sense to swing the board through 180 degrees from down to up rather than 90? The lifting part of the foil looks vulnerable to the high loads of green water cascading back along the deck at speed, acting as a break. I'd be interested to see how the concept works in practice. Cheers.

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ALL AT SEA.

I do not think so. Windage there is, but less vulnerable than a daggerboard lifted vertically or, the present outriggers fitted on the boats. I think that the foiling leeboard alongside the hull is a better option.

post-32003-0-09964800-1460591099_thumb.jpg

 

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No inverse bow here:

 

12957556_981994995227415_571850144256867

 

Boat is the old FILA, Finot Conq from 1997, ex Robin Knox-Johnston's Grey Power.

 

Note the painted-on foils:

12593522_981467501946831_119539688753275

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ALL AT SEA.

I do not think so. Windage there is, but less vulnerable than a daggerboard lifted vertically or, the present outriggers fitted on the boats. I think that the foiling leeboard alongside the hull is a better option.

attachicon.gif955boards2-AL2-16.jpg

 

One thing I like is the potential for breakaway and repairs

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No inverse bow here:

 

Perhaps you are right, The photo of the bow might be tilted backwards. The ladder in the background has the same angle and I think that's vertical.

 

post-17796-0-18062600-1460718522_thumb.jpg

 

12957556_981994995227415_571850144256867

 

Boat is the old FILA, Finot Conq from 1997, ex Robin Knox-Johnston's Grey Power.

I found the old advertisement, for 190 000 € you could buy her.

http://www.bernard-gallay.com/yacht-for-sale/GREY-POWER-%28ex-Fila%29-129

Impressive ammount of races in the past;

Winner - Atlantic Alone 1998 (Giovanni Soldini)

Winner - Around Alone 1999 (Giovanni Soldini)

4th - Transat Anglaise 2000 (Giovanni Soldini)

6th - Transat Jacques Vabre 2001 (Bruno Laurent)

5th - Route du Rhum 2002 (Antoine Koch)

8th - Transat Jacques Vabre 2003 (Antoine Koch)

3rd - Velux Race Around Alone 2006 (Sir Robin Knox-Johnston)

3rd - Route du Rhum 2014 (Sir Robin Knox-Johnston)

 

Here no reverse bow either.

Fun these optical illusions......

Sailing%20Yacht%20GREY%20POWER_04.jpg

 

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What horseshit! These boats and those foils are no more foiling than the man in the moon. The IMOCAS are at the same level of the development of FOIL ASSIST that the big tris have been for 30 years using ama foils for foil assist. To see real flying look at the Gitana video of their Mod 70-notice the whole damn boat is out of the water-that is FOILING! And notice one other thing: Gitana uses rudder T-foils-an essential ingredient for a foiler.

The IMOCA boats have made dramatic progress with FOIL ASSIST but to say they are "foiling" or "foilers" is just bullshit. I'll bet they'll get there but they sure as hell aren't there now...

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What horseshit! These boats and those foils are no more foiling than the man in the moon. The IMOCAS are at the same level of the development of FOIL ASSIST that the big tris have been for 30 years using ama foils for foil assist. To see real flying look at the Gitana video of their Mod 70-notice the whole damn boat is out of the water-that is FOILING! And notice one other thing: they are using rudder T-foils-an essential ingredient for a foiler.

The IMOCA boats have made dramatic progress with FOIL ASSIST but to say they are "foiling" or "foilers" is just bullshit. I'll bet they'll get there but they sure as hell aren't there now...

Doug u made a point, to be more precise u must make in plain light that making an imoca fly u have to suppress 3 tons in the bulb, then to maintain righting moment u have to add left and right amas or float with foil, then u have an imoca that fly easily.

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The biggest thing holding the IMOCA's back from really foiling are the rules. But I imagine they'll change before too long.

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Do you know if anybody else is going to this "evolution" of the moustache foils, with now an-appendage-on-the-appendage? I guess it is to avoid twist in the exit flow and improve efficiency, right?

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What horseshit! These boats and those foils are no more foiling than the man in the moon. The IMOCAS are at the same level of the development of FOIL ASSIST that the big tris have been for 30 years using ama foils for foil assist. To see real flying look at the Gitana video of their Mod 70-notice the whole damn boat is out of the water-that is FOILING! And notice one other thing: they are using rudder T-foils-an essential ingredient for a foiler.

The IMOCA boats have made dramatic progress with FOIL ASSIST but to say they are "foiling" or "foilers" is just bullshit. I'll bet they'll get there but they sure as hell aren't there now...

Doug u made a point, to be more precise u must make in plain light that making an imoca fly u have to suppress 3 tons in the bulb, then to maintain righting moment u have to add left and right amas or float with foil, then u have an imoca that fly easily.

 

..... and at which point do you come to realize that what you are really trying to design is a sailboat which is suited to foils, i.e. a trimaran?

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CgKeKrCW4AA6Wsu.jpg

New Foil for Maitre Coq, Design study by Sam Manuard... Should be quick

 

Are those retractable? I asked many pages ago about fixed foils because of the 5 moveable appendage rule and people smarter than I said getting the foils out of the water was extremely important in the doldrums.

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I assume that when the boats are sailing they have their ais turned on. Does anybody have a list of names or ids, so that I could use something like marinetraffic.com to find them ?

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banquepop face broken 2nd generation foil some days ago, so they will race The Transat with old ones.

but during this prologue to plymouth wind in face, it seems they dominate easily virbac by more than one hour.

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I assume that when the boats are sailing they have their ais turned on. Does anybody have a list of names or ids, so that I could use something like marinetraffic.com to find them ?

They would be required to sail with AIS by law I'm guessing. Seeing as how marine tracker etc work, it wouldn't work when they're more than 25 miles offshore

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banquepop face broken 2nd generation foil some days ago, so they will race The Transat with old ones.

but during this prologue to plymouth wind in face, it seems they dominate easily virbac by more than one hour.

did they hit something?

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it feels more to be a structural failure.

I copy here, it deserve it, translation made by Surlepont.

 

Interesting interview with Seb Josse in today's Ouest France:

http://www.ouest-fra...ra-dite-4179334

 

And since I had some time on my hands, the translation below:

 

Sailing. Josse: "If a foiler wins, the die will be cast"

By Jacques GUYADER

 

The Transat bakerly. Sebastien Josse on his foiling Edmond de Rothschild hopes to get a lot of answers from this race. Start from Plymouth on May 2nd.

 

Sebastien, why did you have to cancel the warm-up from Saint-Malo?

We had a bit of a complicated start up, racing against time since getting the boat back into the water. Everyone is working on a very tight schedule and the Vendee Globe will be here in no time. Calibrating the foils takes a lot of time. We had a problem with one of the foils, which we could manage at our base in Lorient, but which would have been a lot more complicated to do in St-Malo.

 

The boat's winter refit was quite long. Why?

The goal was to get rid off the teething troubles that plagued us during the Transat Jacques Vabre. We had seen that there were structural problems with all the new boats, so we had to deal with those too. Apart from that, the goal was also to carry out some major modifications that we won't reveal and that are not visible right away. We basically came out with version 2 of the boat, which will be the final version for the Vendee Globe.

 

Did you mainly have to erase the weaknesses or enhance the strengths?

We knew that upwind, the foiling boats weren't among the fastest, but we were able to really measure against the others during the Jacques Vabre. And it stung even more (laughs). Like Banque Populaire, we also tried to close those gaps.

 

Yet, in the end, did your early retirement in the Jacques Vabre in a way allow you to catch up?

Yes. The boat was only three months old and we left in heavy weather. I think we would have certainly been subject to big breakages if we hadn't turned around. Like Jean-Pierre Dick, who ended up in Madeira with a broken boat and a lot of time lost. Our boat was still intact. So we did as the other boats, we reinforced the structure, because all the new IMOCAs clearly had a problem in that regard. And then we were able to do a delivery trip to St Barth's and race the Transat B to B, so in the end we did two transats, something no other (new) IMOCA has done, which allowed us to clock up valuable miles.

 

So the problems you experienced during the Transat Jacques Vabre were quite serious

We had a succession of minor damages - with outrigger, mast, rigging - which, in 45-50 knots, showed that it wasn't reasonable to continue in a storm, only if we wanted it to have a catastrophic ending.

 

In the B to B, the return transat to Brittany, you encountered very heavy weather conditions that allowed you to test the reliability of your boat Edmond de Rothschild

Yes, I had 50 knots of wind for about six hours, but those behind me had 60 knots, and for even longer! But, for me, it was a great experience because you don't get these types of conditions during training, you don't go out in such a storm because it's dangerous for the boat. But it allowed me to tick a box: 45 knots with a 6 m swell works with this boat.

 

So what did you really work on during the winter refit?

Let's say stability. I don't want to divulge more. But it's not just about the foils, which represent only one third of the boat. There are the ballasts, the keel, the sails Not everything revolves around the foil issue, even though it is our primary field of questioning, for which we're still waiting for answers, just like the other teams.

 

You and Banque Populaire are the most advanced teams

Two weeks ago Banque Populaire was at the same level as we are, but they broke their second generation foil, and were forced to go back to the first generation, so they made a step back. Surely to be taking two steps forward later. We are waiting for answers. We have sailed five times with the new configuration and The Transat will either validate our approach or bring more questions, something only a race can do. So we can say that we are the least behind the older generation boats that benefit from 8 years of development or more. If we manage to do the two transats back-to-back (The Transat and New York/Les Sables) with honorable rankings and without a hitch, only then can we claim that we widened the gap with the previous generations. We can't say that yet. But if a foiler wins The Transat, then I will say that the die is cast.

 

And if that doesn't happen?

Then we have to look at the circumstances. If we are two days, or two hours behind. If the upwind conditions aren't too crappy at the end During the Transat Jacques Vabre, if Armel hadn't had his problems near the end, plus the doldrums where he had to tack, which rarely happens, he would have left everyone in his wake. Deep down, he must be pretty confident to hold some reserve But now, our new boats, which are much more powerful than anything that was done before, have to win a race to ratify all that.

 

You were the first to sign up for The Transat, even though it isn't part of the IMOCA schedule

Yes, but is is a legendary race that exists since 1960. So yes, it is risky in terms of breakage, but we've signed up for the Vendee Globe, which can bring tough conditions, so this is a major test for both man and boat. Whoever finishes The Transat garners a lot of points in preparation for the Vendee Globe. We shouldn't only do races where everything is to our advantage. We might be leaving Les Sables d'Olonne in November with a southwesterly blowing 30-35 knots in the Bay of Biscay and have four days of upwind sailing, which amounts to half a Transat

 

What are your expectations for this transat?

It is clearly a warm-up. Creating reflexes, getting into the swing of things, not hurting myself. The Transat is a race where you have to show good seamanship, it's not a speed run. It is a tough race, you have to be mentally strong, have stamina and tenacity. Whoever finishes The Transat is a sturdy one.

 

You are now using a second generation set of foils. How much progress do they bring?

I have a good feeling about it, but I haven't been able to test against others. I couldn't do the training at Port-la-Fôret. I can't wait to start this race. But we can already say that between the first and second generation of foils, there is a 5-6% performance increase, which is considerable. But we have to test their reliability.

 

Lifting boats, even making them fly, is part of what the Gitana Team is about, isn't it?

Yes, it fascinates me since I first saw the foiling Moths in 2005 And speed, innovation and avant-gardism are the Gitana Team trademarks. When it comes to foils, using them was a no-brainer. We have Gitana XV (former MOD-70) which serves as a real-life model for the design and construction of the new maxi-trimaran that will be launched next year. It is an exciting way to go for the entire team. There's a whole world to explore with tremendous room for improvement. The next 10 years will bring us amazing things. We will reach speeds that, two to three years ago, we were barely able to touch, over 40 knots (on a multihull) at a steady speed.

 

Jérémie Beyou's boat, your pontoon neighbor, will be the only boat of the older generation to have installed foils. Was that, in fact, not the ideal compromise?

His goal was to keep the benefits of the older generation boats combined with the addition of foils. There is a hole in the IMOCA rules that greatly benefits these older boats that want to incorporate new technologies. Today, a boat like Maître CoQ is free in terms of power! They were able to strengthen its mast, keep important ballasts, a wide angle of keel, and even add more power with the foils, while all of that has been restricted for our new generation boats, with a one-design mast and a MR of 25 tons/meter. Jérémie made an interesting gamble and fully to his credit.

 

Will the transat New York - Les Sables, which normally should be more favorable to the latest generation boats, be able to show everyone's true colors?

No. I think that it will already happen during The Transat. The level is high, it includes the boats that finished first and second in the Jacques Vabre, and the one that won the Vendee Globe they're all there. I'm not saying that the others don't count, but if a foiling boat were to beat one of these two other boats, it would be very reassuring for the choices we made.

 

How is the construction of the maxi coming along?

It's going well Launch is scheduled for a little over a year, these kinds of boats take a long time to build. We have moved beyond the moulding stage for the three hulls and the arms. It is a tremendous job for the design office, with four people working on it full-time.

 

You have chosen to build a 33 m long boat, which is one meter longer than the Ultim class box rule. Why?

Why limit ourselves? Our goals with this future maxi-trimaran are the Transat Jacques Vabre and the Route du Rhum, which do not impose any limits. The box rules set by the Collectif Ultim will come into play when they start organizing races. For the moment the only one scheduled is the solo around the world race in 2019, which is still far away. And we will be able to fit into the box if necessary.

 

You will cut a meter off the boat?

We'll see

 

With the former Mod 70 that you use as test boat, it seems you blew up the speedo?

Yes, we recently sailed at 43 knots. We're able to get a steady speed of 40 knots, which before wasn't possible with a 21 m trimaran. It's very exciting! Even though these speeds bring about quite some stress as well, as there is no zero risk.

 

Isn't it frustrating to go back to an IMOCA after that, with which you cannot reach these speeds?

No, because for me, the Vendee Globe is a dream. The 2008 edition left me with a taste of not having had enough, as I had to give up on my ambitions off the coast of New Zealand. It's a race that you want to be able to nail. Finishing alone is a feat. Making the podium or even winning is a whole other story. Given the level, you have to be fired up. The high level of the participants is what makes it so interesting.

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This interview reinforces the high risk/high reward strategy that the moustache style boats are chasing. Puts into context the approach by PRB and VR - itself a campaign with great pedigree and prospects - but if they can unravel the reliability issues and settings for the moustache foils - then they will do a horizon job on those without.

 

However that is a massive "IF" and the comments about all the other factors that contribute, cannot be overlooked or ignored.

That is the appeal of these craft and our sport in general - massive complexity and a million variables.

 

High stakes poker about to commence with the scrutiny of two transats to set a form book for the Vendee........ Watch this space closely.

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it feels more to be a structural failure.

I copy here, it deserve it, translation made by Surlepont.

Interesting interview with Seb Josse in today's Ouest France:

http://www.ouest-fra...ra-dite-4179334

And since I had some time on my hands, the translation below:

Sailing. Josse: "If a foiler wins, the die will be cast"

By Jacques GUYADER

The Transat bakerly. Sebastien Josse on his foiling Edmond de Rothschild hopes to get a lot of answers from this race. Start from Plymouth on May 2nd.

Sebastien, why did you have to cancel the warm-up from Saint-Malo?

We had a bit of a complicated start up, racing against time since getting the boat back into the water. Everyone is working on a very tight schedule and the Vendee Globe will be here in no time. Calibrating the foils takes a lot of time. We had a problem with one of the foils, which we could manage at our base in Lorient, but which would have been a lot more complicated to do in St-Malo.

The boat's winter refit was quite long. Why?

The goal was to get rid off the teething troubles that plagued us during the Transat Jacques Vabre. We had seen that there were structural problems with all the new boats, so we had to deal with those too. Apart from that, the goal was also to carry out some major modifications that we won't reveal and that are not visible right away. We basically came out with version 2 of the boat, which will be the final version for the Vendee Globe.

Did you mainly have to erase the weaknesses or enhance the strengths?

We knew that upwind, the foiling boats weren't among the fastest, but we were able to really measure against the others during the Jacques Vabre. And it stung even more (laughs). Like Banque Populaire, we also tried to close those gaps.

Yet, in the end, did your early retirement in the Jacques Vabre in a way allow you to catch up?

Yes. The boat was only three months old and we left in heavy weather. I think we would have certainly been subject to big breakages if we hadn't turned around. Like Jean-Pierre Dick, who ended up in Madeira with a broken boat and a lot of time lost. Our boat was still intact. So we did as the other boats, we reinforced the structure, because all the new IMOCAs clearly had a problem in that regard. And then we were able to do a delivery trip to St Barth's and race the Transat B to B, so in the end we did two transats, something no other (new) IMOCA has done, which allowed us to clock up valuable miles.

So the problems you experienced during the Transat Jacques Vabre were quite serious

We had a succession of minor damages - with outrigger, mast, rigging - which, in 45-50 knots, showed that it wasn't reasonable to continue in a storm, only if we wanted it to have a catastrophic ending.

In the B to B, the return transat to Brittany, you encountered very heavy weather conditions that allowed you to test the reliability of your boat Edmond de Rothschild

Yes, I had 50 knots of wind for about six hours, but those behind me had 60 knots, and for even longer! But, for me, it was a great experience because you don't get these types of conditions during training, you don't go out in such a storm because it's dangerous for the boat. But it allowed me to tick a box: 45 knots with a 6 m swell works with this boat.

So what did you really work on during the winter refit?

Let's say stability. I don't want to divulge more. But it's not just about the foils, which represent only one third of the boat. There are the ballasts, the keel, the sails Not everything revolves around the foil issue, even though it is our primary field of questioning, for which we're still waiting for answers, just like the other teams.

You and Banque Populaire are the most advanced teams

Two weeks ago Banque Populaire was at the same level as we are, but they broke their second generation foil, and were forced to go back to the first generation, so they made a step back. Surely to be taking two steps forward later. We are waiting for answers. We have sailed five times with the new configuration and The Transat will either validate our approach or bring more questions, something only a race can do. So we can say that we are the least behind the older generation boats that benefit from 8 years of development or more. If we manage to do the two transats back-to-back (The Transat and New York/Les Sables) with honorable rankings and without a hitch, only then can we claim that we widened the gap with the previous generations. We can't say that yet. But if a foiler wins The Transat, then I will say that the die is cast.

And if that doesn't happen?

Then we have to look at the circumstances. If we are two days, or two hours behind. If the upwind conditions aren't too crappy at the end During the Transat Jacques Vabre, if Armel hadn't had his problems near the end, plus the doldrums where he had to tack, which rarely happens, he would have left everyone in his wake. Deep down, he must be pretty confident to hold some reserve But now, our new boats, which are much more powerful than anything that was done before, have to win a race to ratify all that.

You were the first to sign up for The Transat, even though it isn't part of the IMOCA schedule

Yes, but is is a legendary race that exists since 1960. So yes, it is risky in terms of breakage, but we've signed up for the Vendee Globe, which can bring tough conditions, so this is a major test for both man and boat. Whoever finishes The Transat garners a lot of points in preparation for the Vendee Globe. We shouldn't only do races where everything is to our advantage. We might be leaving Les Sables d'Olonne in November with a southwesterly blowing 30-35 knots in the Bay of Biscay and have four days of upwind sailing, which amounts to half a Transat

What are your expectations for this transat?

It is clearly a warm-up. Creating reflexes, getting into the swing of things, not hurting myself. The Transat is a race where you have to show good seamanship, it's not a speed run. It is a tough race, you have to be mentally strong, have stamina and tenacity. Whoever finishes The Transat is a sturdy one.

You are now using a second generation set of foils. How much progress do they bring?

I have a good feeling about it, but I haven't been able to test against others. I couldn't do the training at Port-la-Fôret. I can't wait to start this race. But we can already say that between the first and second generation of foils, there is a 5-6% performance increase, which is considerable. But we have to test their reliability.

Lifting boats, even making them fly, is part of what the Gitana Team is about, isn't it?

Yes, it fascinates me since I first saw the foiling Moths in 2005 And speed, innovation and avant-gardism are the Gitana Team trademarks. When it comes to foils, using them was a no-brainer. We have Gitana XV (former MOD-70) which serves as a real-life model for the design and construction of the new maxi-trimaran that will be launched next year. It is an exciting way to go for the entire team. There's a whole world to explore with tremendous room for improvement. The next 10 years will bring us amazing things. We will reach speeds that, two to three years ago, we were barely able to touch, over 40 knots (on a multihull) at a steady speed.

Jérémie Beyou's boat, your pontoon neighbor, will be the only boat of the older generation to have installed foils. Was that, in fact, not the ideal compromise?

His goal was to keep the benefits of the older generation boats combined with the addition of foils. There is a hole in the IMOCA rules that greatly benefits these older boats that want to incorporate new technologies. Today, a boat like Maître CoQ is free in terms of power! They were able to strengthen its mast, keep important ballasts, a wide angle of keel, and even add more power with the foils, while all of that has been restricted for our new generation boats, with a one-design mast and a MR of 25 tons/meter. Jérémie made an interesting gamble and fully to his credit.

Will the transat New York - Les Sables, which normally should be more favorable to the latest generation boats, be able to show everyone's true colors?

No. I think that it will already happen during The Transat. The level is high, it includes the boats that finished first and second in the Jacques Vabre, and the one that won the Vendee Globe they're all there. I'm not saying that the others don't count, but if a foiling boat were to beat one of these two other boats, it would be very reassuring for the choices we made.

How is the construction of the maxi coming along?

It's going well Launch is scheduled for a little over a year, these kinds of boats take a long time to build. We have moved beyond the moulding stage for the three hulls and the arms. It is a tremendous job for the design office, with four people working on it full-time.

You have chosen to build a 33 m long boat, which is one meter longer than the Ultim class box rule. Why?

Why limit ourselves? Our goals with this future maxi-trimaran are the Transat Jacques Vabre and the Route du Rhum, which do not impose any limits. The box rules set by the Collectif Ultim will come into play when they start organizing races. For the moment the only one scheduled is the solo around the world race in 2019, which is still far away. And we will be able to fit into the box if necessary.

You will cut a meter off the boat?

We'll see

With the former Mod 70 that you use as test boat, it seems you blew up the speedo?

Yes, we recently sailed at 43 knots. We're able to get a steady speed of 40 knots, which before wasn't possible with a 21 m trimaran. It's very exciting! Even though these speeds bring about quite some stress as well, as there is no zero risk.

Isn't it frustrating to go back to an IMOCA after that, with which you cannot reach these speeds?

No, because for me, the Vendee Globe is a dream. The 2008 edition left me with a taste of not having had enough, as I had to give up on my ambitions off the coast of New Zealand. It's a race that you want to be able to nail. Finishing alone is a feat. Making the podium or even winning is a whole other story. Given the level, you have to be fired up. The high level of the participants is what makes it so interesting.

Excellent interview. Thx for posting.

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Virbac left St Malo for the feeder race with only one (port side) foil in, presumably they expected not to need port tack?

post-36074-0-29566700-1461570775_thumb.jpg

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Very interesting interview from Seb Josse, thanks oceanwwgg.

The interesting part for me was to read how the new rules which were intended to increase the reliability of the boats are argueably not doing what was intended. One design keel, one design mast, restricted static righting moment etc. The intent of all these impositions all intended to limit power and strain, now compromised or made irrelevant by the unrestricted increase in dynamic righting moment which a foil extending way beyond the maximum beam of the hull can provide. All these new rules now seem completely pointless. Especially having a one design mast, presumably geared to the static 25 ton meter righting moment, if you are not allowed, with a new boat, to design and build a stronger mast appropriate to the added dynamic righting moment from foils! What a shambles the rule makers have created.

Quoting Seb, "There is a hole in the IMOCA rules that greatly benefits these older boats that want to incorporate new technologies. Today, a boat like Maître CoQ is free in terms of power! They were able to strengthen its mast, keep important ballasts, a wide angle of keel, and even add more power with the foils, while all of that has been restricted for our new generation boats, with a one-design mast and a MR of 25 tons/meter."

Just goes to show rule makers can't see the future. Now we have a massively complicated situation. If you want to have a winning boat and are not restricted by budget, now the worlds best design office with an unlimited budget might not be able to design and build a new potentially winning boat because it may be technically impossible within the rules for new boats! A heavily modified older boat might well have an unbeatable set of technical advantages.

Isn't this exactly the opposite of what a box rule develpment class should be offering as a level playing field?

 

Anyway, it will be fascinating to see how they all perform in the Transat.

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In defence of the rule makers (I completely agree with you by the way) I don't think anyone beyond the designers saw coming just how quickly foils would take over the class and the massively increased loads they would put on the structures.

 

 

I imagine if the Transat is as much of a shitshow reliability wise as the last one was, they will change the rules to allow some strengthening. Maybe not as much as the older, Grandfathered boats are allowed but enough so that they are actually able to complete the course some of the time.

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Thanks Ed for putting the translation on the FP, but can you please credit it to the correct translator (me) not the one who copied it into this thread (and did credit me, btw)....?

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Very interesting interview from Seb Josse, thanks oceanwwgg.

 

The interesting part for me was to read how the new rules which were intended to increase the reliability of the boats are argueably not doing what was intended. One design keel, one design mast, restricted static righting moment etc........

.............

Anyway, it will be fascinating to see how they all perform in the Transat.

Translation go to SURLEPON not me, he did a huge job and can be thanks a lot for that.

This insight view is highly valuable.

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Very interesting interview from Seb Josse, thanks oceanwwgg.

 

The interesting part for me was to read how the new rules which were intended to increase the reliability of the boats are argueably not doing what was intended. One design keel, one design mast, restricted static righting moment etc. The intent of all these impositions all intended to limit power and strain, now compromised or made irrelevant by the unrestricted increase in dynamic righting moment which a foil extending way beyond the maximum beam of the hull can provide. All these new rules now seem completely pointless. Especially having a one design mast, presumably geared to the static 25 ton meter righting moment, if you are not allowed, with a new boat, to design and build a stronger mast appropriate to the added dynamic righting moment from foils! What a shambles the rule makers have created.

 

Quoting Seb, "There is a hole in the IMOCA rules that greatly benefits these older boats that want to incorporate new technologies. Today, a boat like Maître CoQ is free in terms of power! They were able to strengthen its mast, keep important ballasts, a wide angle of keel, and even add more power with the foils, while all of that has been restricted for our new generation boats, with a one-design mast and a MR of 25 tons/meter."

 

Just goes to show rule makers can't see the future. Now we have a massively complicated situation. If you want to have a winning boat and are not restricted by budget, now the worlds best design office with an unlimited budget might not be able to design and build a new potentially winning boat because it may be technically impossible within the rules for new boats! A heavily modified older boat might well have an unbeatable set of technical advantages.

 

Isn't this exactly the opposite of what a box rule develpment class should be offering as a level playing field?

 

Anyway, it will be fascinating to see how they all perform in the Transat.

 

 

Spot on!

 

The addition of foils explodes the whole IMOCA attempt at making more reliable and less expensive 60's. As you say the one-design masts for a start are not likely to take the extra loading.

 

I think the whole foiling development in sailing should be allowed to continue as far as possible so inevitably the IMOCA rule will have to be reconsidered. And I expect the OSTAR will throw in some gremlins as Josse suggests.

 

For cheap and reliable you could always have a VOR 65 !

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I think it also explodes the justification for banning scow bows. Banning bow volume over something very expensive with moving parts just doesn't make sense to me. I like both technologies though.

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One design keel was clearly nothing to do with performance limitations - it was because the class become ridiculous, with a stupid number of boats still losing keels. When the insane budget Safran could not keep its ultra high tech ion beam welded titanium keel on more than a few hours into the last Vendée you know the class has a serious problem. It would only be a matter of time before a boat and skipper was lost without forcing some sanity into the rules to force a known safe design on them.

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One design keel was clearly nothing to do with performance limitations - it was because the class become ridiculous, with a stupid number of boats still losing keels. When the insane budget Safran could not keep its ultra high tech ion beam welded titanium keel on more than a few hours into the last Vendée you know the class has a serious problem. It would only be a matter of time before a boat and skipper was lost without forcing some sanity into the rules to force a known safe design on them.

You just don't see the wood from the trees do you Francis. Sure as a development class Imoca 60's have had their share of failures but I wouldn't choose to say this was "ridiculous. "Politically incorrect" maybe, "exciting and cutting edge", definitely. The 2008/9 VG was a terrific race. 30 started and 11 finished. Are you telling those 11 skippers they entered a race for "ridiculous" boats?

 

Of course a one design keel has a limited performance. Keelwise no boat with a one-design keel can have a more efficient keel than any of the other non-grandfathered boats. These keels are all now intrinsically performance limited by rule and incapable (by rule) of any improvement. What could possibly be more "performance limiting" than that?

 

Sure Safran got its design/fabrication wrong and paid the price, but their design, had it worked, could have had a performance advantage. Safran had a problem! Not the class. The class, (my opinion) over-reacted with these one-design rules and now these rules don't look too clever!

 

You talk about "insane budget" but from where I sit, close to the Lorient base of several teams, it does not look as if the foil boats are being developed on a shoestring this year! They are stuck with the keel rule, so what are they doing? Pushing every possible boundary of the allowed envelope to stress everything else (masts?) right as close to the edge as they dare.

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I think it also explodes the justification for banning scow bows. Banning bow volume over something very expensive with moving parts just doesn't make sense to me. I like both technologies though.

+1

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Staysail, I'm pretty sure Francis is making some good points there. As a follower of the race, keels falling off is not something that brings me back to the event every four years. Hopefully with the OD masts, we will see rigs staying up in higher numbers as well.

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Staysail, I'm pretty sure Francis is making some good points there. As a follower of the race, keels falling off is not something that brings me back to the event every four years. Hopefully with the OD masts, we will see rigs staying up in higher numbers as well.

I just think "rule makers" should not be interfering where the naval architect should be the one making the decisions. Whatever Francis says these rules were basically intended to improve safety and reliability by restricting performance. When you have an open class the whole point is to make the boat go as fast as possible and still hold together, and it's a general rule that a high power to weight ratio is an advantage. If there is a way to save weight and increase power designers and skippers will obviously exploit all possible avenues to get the best power to weight ratio. That is just what they are now doing!

Fundamentally also, if you are going to have an open development class and go racing in it, it seems completely contrary to the entire concept of developing faster and faster boats, to dictate to designers what they can and cannot do in such fundamental areas as imposing a performance restricting keel and mast design.

 

I also can see no earthly logical reason why the scow bow isn't allowed.

 

It seems pretty clear that now mast and keel are taken out of the equation the quest for lightness and for more power has simply transfered the high probability failure risk from keel to hull structure. The risk to mast looks as if it might actually have gone up!

 

Designers have (predictably in my opinion) opted for a lighter (and inevitably more highly stressed?) hull structure construction technique and increased power (righting moment) derived from foils, and in even one case, reduced drag by reducing beam.

 

The initial experiences on the TJV were several hull failures and one boat (with its reliable keel still attached!), capsizing! And all this carnage happening almost within hours of starting the race. The fastest new boats, based on the racing so far, seem just as unreliable and dangerous as those with the features which were "ruled out", which just goes to show these rules simply haven't worked.

 

Engineering progress means that designers do normally learn from mistakes and failures and gradually improve their understanding of materials and techniques, so the natural consequence of the keel failures should have been a designer re-think influenced by skippers who do want to get to the finish and not go swimming in the Southern Ocean, and my view is next generation keels would have had adequate structual reliability anyway, and the "rule makers" had no need to get involved in things like masts and keels.

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