oioi

New imoca boats

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Nah, something is wrong there,

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14 hours ago, Chucky said:

Who designed this boat? I like the massive open cockpit and the adjustable seats! not a lot of places to sit in the cockpit except of the two seats. It would be great to get some more close up cockpits pics to show details of the halyard clutches arrangement.

Malizia II is the ex Gitana 16. (Sébastien JOSSE, Vendee 2016 DNF)
[2015 Plan Lauriot-Prévost G. Verdier, construit chez Multiplast à Vannes]

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10 hours ago, LeoV said:

Nah, something is wrong there,

I can only conjecture that the aft ballast tank is still full of water. Otherwise, their sinking.

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2 hours ago, longy said:

I can only conjecture that the aft ballast tank is still full of water. Otherwise, their sinking.

She wasn't very much higher than that at the start in Les Sables, or the TJV/St Barth - Port la Forete race in 2015. Maybe just some extra crew gear.

 

HW

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On 5/24/2018 at 6:25 AM, Sailbydate said:

Holy shit - will you look at that thing go!

 

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Constrictor setup looks nice, such a small area with so many controls.
Sliding kitchen, only transverse movement, nice.

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12 hours ago, longy said:

Waterline in this pic is 4-5" lower than more recent pic. That's a lot of difference for such a flat stern.

ballast tanks ?

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On 7/24/2018 at 1:00 PM, longy said:

Waterline in this pic is 4-5" lower than more recent pic. That's a lot of difference for such a flat stern.

Seen. Could definitely be ballast still full. Depending on the plumbing, they can be a pain to empty if you're not going fast.

 

HW

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On 7/25/2018 at 7:18 AM, Mid said:

ballast tanks ?

 

On 7/26/2018 at 1:49 AM, Haligonian Winterr said:

Seen. Could definitely be ballast still full. Depending on the plumbing, they can be a pain to empty if you're not going fast.

 

HW

When I took the pic of the cockpit and stern, I had a sneak peek down the front hatch into the carbon cave. I couldn't see any sails in there. Maybe that is why she's a little of balance?

Shore crew were working away pretty relaxed on minor things and reprovisioning for the trip back to France. So no major issues ;-)

Unfortunately I didn't get detailed shots from the clutch arrangement. I was amazed by the small size of the 4 winches though. They seem to be tiny for 60'. And it's only 4! The two back ones are used for backstay and headsail sheets. One of the front two for the main, the other one for halyards. So there must be a lot of locking and unlocking...

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On 7/31/2018 at 7:21 AM, SaltyPuppy said:

not as wet as Hugo Boss, where the water runs right into the cockpit because it's so low... ;-)

Gosh, that's lucky. ;-)

 

Safran wet.png

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

Gosh, that's lucky. ;-)

 

Safran wet.png

Do they stick a rig on subs nowadays to save fuel?

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Posted (edited)
On 8/9/2018 at 10:47 AM, RobG said:

Gosh, that's lucky. ;-)

 

Safran wet.png

Rob, you're right, they're all kind a wet ;-)

I was thinking more of the vid and discussion in the vendee globe thread about the water Alex was carrying around inside the cockpit:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/149326-vendee-globe-2016/&do=findComment&comment=5524624

Here is the vid:

https://youtu.be/qBQx2s5igQ8?t=1150

Edited by SaltyPuppy
better link for video (how do you embed videos in here?)

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Interesting that they did the 90 degree test without the foils in. My crude calcs suggests that would make the boat look stiffer, so probably intentional and gaining a little on the measurer.

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It is not uncommon in the commercial maritime world to make small adjustments numerically to stability measurements if there is a components missing or that would be impractical to be in place.  I cant se why the Imoca Class wouldn't be the same.

I think the real take away here is how this team continue to school the sailing would on how to maintain long term sponsorship.  Most teams would roll their eyes and get annual measuring out of the way, HBR get the cameras out and make a promotional event of it.

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Scarecrow,

any decent team will make sure that they present the boat in the most favourable state, within the rules, for them. I am just speculating why you would leave the foils out. There don’t tend to be coincidences at this level when meeting the stability rules is so critical.

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That is because he will loose them anyway.
Google showed other boats with foils doing the test... interesting.
 

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Interesting, trying to see if they are like Alex's design of foils or the other boats. Anyone have anymore information? 

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1 hour ago, Starwax said:

Interesting, trying to see if they are like Alex's design of foils or the other boats. Anyone have anymore information? 

Some information in this article :

https://www.adonnante.com/45655-course-au-large-imoca-route-du-rhum-2018-prb-est-equipe-de-foils/

 

Translation by google trad :

"Let's go for the "version 3.0" of PRB. Since launching in March 2010, Vincent Riou's monohull has continued to evolve. Latest innovation: the boat is now equipped with foils designed by the Argentine architect Juan Kouyoumdjian to replace the old straight fins.

Last Friday was an important day in Vincent Riou's preparation program for the Route du Rhum Destination Guadeloupe. It was the first time that the skipper sailed with a PRB equipped with both foils. Surrounded by part of his technical team, Vincent spent the whole day at sea in a wind of up to twenty knots. And this first navigation convinced the skipper of PRB: "We do not have big problems. I think we will not take a long time to start the boat. But it's true that it's a bit of a re-discovery, it's a new boat. Today, these foils are promising. The lights are all green. There is still a little DIY but the concept works great! It was in October 2015 that the first 60 'monohulls equipped with foils appeared at the start of a race. It was on the Transat Jacques Vabre and Brazil ... PRB, without foil, had won against these new foilers unreliable. Since then, the foil revolution has made its way into the IMOCA class. From now on, the gauge authorizes to regulate the incidence of the carrying plans. For Vincent, it has become obvious to equip his monohull in his turn to keep it up against the newer boats.

Lessons have been learned by skippers and architects since the appearance of first generation foils, the appendages of PRB benefit from all this expertise. Vincent, passionate about technology, took a closer look at what can be done in IMOCA and other classes of boats to think about the foils of his 60 '. He knew exactly what he wanted for his boat which has already, in the past, proved its ability to go fast. "These foils, I wanted them to make a versatile boat. These are not foils that are made for very high speeds. These are foils made for more versatility than the foils that were designed in the past, those of the generation of the last Vendée Globe. They were really typical and that's what I did not want to go to "says the skipper who planned to spend a lot of time on the water before the departure on November 4 of the Route du Rhum Destination Guadeloupe.

PRB will take part tomorrow at the training course of the Pole Finistère Offshore Racing. Three days to gauge a lot of competitors for the Route du Rhum Destination Guadeloupe. Vincent will then participate in the Azimut Trophy in Lorient from 21 to 23 September."

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ekkki said:

These foils, I wanted them to make a versatile boat. These are not foils that are made for very high speeds. These are foils made for more versatility than the foils that were designed in the past, those of the generation of the last Vendée Globe.

Ok, we knew the Vendee foils helped at higher speeds, will be a big step if they start working at lower speeds.
Good article, always forget to check out Adonnante

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Looking at that photo I can’t help but think there would be a fast and “safe” heavy wind mode running close to straight down wind keeping the boat flat and riding on both foils.

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What a foil... trying to gasp how it will behave under heel... one thing is sure, it will not ride on the tip alone :)

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2 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Looking at that photo I can’t help but think there would be a fast and “safe” heavy wind mode running close to straight down wind keeping the boat flat and riding on both foils.

You would hope so , because he's probably going to be a little blinded by all the glare and water bouncing off that foredeck .

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That boat is sexy.  More pictures here:

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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8 hours ago, Baguette du Fromage said:

A bull !!!

Also an approach that bears no resemblance to his Chicken.

Good front on pic of foil

DlIq73uWwAAq92o.jpeg

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The F-4 Phantom of IMOCA boats.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, oioi said:

Is it me or are those foils further back than previously

Only photo angle if you count staunchion postions

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Also an approach that bears no resemblance to his Chicken.

Good front on pic of foil

DlIq73uWwAAq92o.jpeg

Bull Horn Foil

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I wonder how far it retracts, and associated internal volume of the place it goes?

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Soon they are wider then a Orma 60 was :)

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21 hours ago, Baguette du Fromage said:

A bull !!!

 

Launched today from CDK composites ! Jeremie Beyou and his brand new toy

DlHQiwYX4AAoylD.jpg

holy shit.

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9 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I wonder how far it retracts, and associated internal volume of the place it goes?

Looks like only retracts the length of the Black part. Also they overlap at the deck exits. So only one can be retracted at a time. So in reality, they are permanently in use. Also retracting one only increases the pressure zone close to the hull. So almost questionable why have them retracting at all. Much cheaper and lighter to just make them fixed.

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damn, they're not fkn' around. what do you reckon the concept of such massive foils is? are they going for a foiling mode that's fast in light air at slower speeds where lift trumps drag, are they trying to lift three-quarters+ of the boat out of the water at high reaching speeds, both?  wonder how much metal was used in their construction?

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The hull looks significantly narrower/lower drag than the previous generation to compensate for the larger foils... or vice versa.

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32 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

The hull looks significantly narrower/lower drag than the previous generation to compensate for the larger foils... or vice versa.

Natural evolution from Hugo Boss (sorry this is an American site, are we allowed to talk about evolution here).

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12 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Geez, look how far across the deck the daggerboard exits! Do the cases intersect?

If you slow down the Twitter clip, it looks as if they exit the deck from separate cases that intersect on the centre line of the deck. Could be wrong, but it makes sense in an engineering way to tie the loads together. 

Feel free to flame away if I’ve got it wrong. 

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On 8/21/2018 at 9:02 AM, jack_sparrow said:

Also an approach that bears no resemblance to his Chicken.

Good front on pic of foil

DlIq73uWwAAq92o.jpeg

Awesome pic. Lots of span, looks like it's designed for increased leeway coupling, surface piercing tips. Even fully retracted, the leeward foil is going to provide massive amounts of lift, maybe they are looking at a lowrider/skimming mode for some conditions . 

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6 minutes ago, mad said:

If you slow down the Twitter clip, it looks as if they exit the deck from separate cases that intersect on the centre line of the deck. Could be wrong, but it makes sense in an engineering way to tie the loads together. 

Feel free to flame away if I’ve got it wrong. 

in this pic it looks like the port board is retracted over the top of the starboard board. Odds are the trunks are connected for structure

39916218_1824184707616581_720843688640512000_n.jpg

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Might be fast, but a nightmare alongside the dock for the shore crew. They'll need massive block fenders & a passerelle to get onboard.

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9 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

in this pic it looks like the port board is retracted over the top of the starboard board. Odds are the trunks are connected for structure

39916218_1824184707616581_720843688640512000_n.jpg

Good find, I’m sure the are connected together down below. It was more that they can’t be retracted together that I was looking at. 

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44 minutes ago, mad said:

If you slow down the Twitter clip, it looks as if they exit the deck from separate cases that intersect on the centre line of the deck.

Twitter clip.

Screen Shot 2018-08-22 at 4.15.36 PM.png

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Man that is a bad ass looking boat.  Alex and The Boss have some competition in that category, at least.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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14 hours ago, ctutmark said:

in this pic it looks like the port board is retracted over the top of the starboard board. Odds are the trunks are connected for structure

39916218_1824184707616581_720843688640512000_n.jpg

Nice closer, aft, view in this clip.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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And a little hollow in the deck to keep the VCG down, improve AVS as well. Not as extreme as I expect to see some. but the board overlap is as per Boss. I really don't see a huge advantage in having these boards move on that axis. Surely rotating fore and aft or changing pitch would be more valuable. I also wonder what happens in really heavy stuff when you don't want the board anymore. They have to be massively overbuilt to cope with the conditions you would otherwise retract them in.

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In a way these boats are really leading the world sailing scene given they are designed to circumnavigate the world and single handed. The hull shapes and foil design show how things have evolved. The new AC boats are exciting too but I prefer the Imoca and Vendee competition.  

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2 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

In a way these boats are really leading the world sailing scene given they are designed to circumnavigate the world and single handed. The hull shapes and foil design show how things have evolved. The new AC boats are exciting too but I prefer the Imoca and Vendee competition.  

Agreed, it makes even the old Volvo 70’s look rather pedestrian and boring. 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Agreed, it makes even the old Volvo 70’s look rather pedestrian and boring. 

Indeed. Funny how the VO70 rule had a clause back in the original 2003 version prohibiting such foils as DSS had just appeared and they were afraid that the cost would be too high in development. Imagine if that rule hadn't been there!

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1 hour ago, Chimp too said:

Indeed. Funny how the VO70 rule had a clause back in the original 2003 version prohibiting such foils as DSS had just appeared and they were afraid that the cost would be too high in development. Imagine if that rule hadn't been there!

Well they wouldn’t be looking at the Imoca fleet to try and inject some life into their race if they maybe carried on or tweaked the rule to allow a little more development. Then again, it may have killed the race as has been discussed at length on other threads. 

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Pierre-François Dargnies: "Since the idea was to use the foils to get the power, it was necessary to design a hull that limits the drag, knowing that the gauge does not allow the total flight. This results in a very innovative hull, with a very frigated bow, a very rounded and closed transom.

My interpretation:  Instead of a conventional flat run aft for a planing surface, they use a more rounded hull for less wetted surface and form drag since the foils lift the boat.  Smart.

DlMBJ6IWsAACeoB.jpg

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1 hour ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Pierre-François Dargnies: "Since the idea was to use the foils to get the power, it was necessary to design a hull that limits the drag, knowing that the gauge does not allow the total flight. This results in a very innovative hull, with a very frigated bow, a very rounded and closed transom.

My interpretation:  Instead of a conventional flat run aft for a planing surface, they use a more rounded hull for less wetted surface and form drag since the foils lift the boat.  Smart.

DlMBJ6IWsAACeoB.jpg

yup, to use a powerful hull shape with those foils would be a rookie mistake, and would doom the design to irrelevance. fkn' amazing machine.

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Jeremie Beyou maybe appreciates hull shape and foil combination more than others after his Chicken Frankenboat experiment when chasing the grandfathering elements.

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Never boring in Imoca class.
The foils are big and looks heavy. And how will the hull behave sans foil...
Let the RDR come.

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How does that hollow in the fore deck drain? Fine it will eventually heel and therefore flow out but in the southern ocean that area will be pretty much full of water. 

 

Cool boat though, Its a development of hugo boss boat wise but the foils are more of the b'pop school of thought with a lot of lift gained from the tip area (after the curve). At least thats what it looks like to me.  

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To me the natural development is to go narrow, very narrow. Reduce form stability right down and get rid of all that drag. Go single rudder, get rid of canting keel and have fixed keel with minimum bulb weight to achieve AVS. Rely on the foils for RM. have foils permanently out and change axis of adjustment to pitch.

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some good points there, they all seem to be realistic options. only one I might question is ditching the benefit of canting keels; maybe reduce max cant angle to around half of what it is now and aim for minimum keel weight so you can further tweak RM options using the leverage, might make the boat more forgiving to sail as well.

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The new rules already allow adjustable foil rake guys.

 

(h)
Effective from 1 January 2018, a foil shall be retractable using one degree of freedom and:
(i)
A second degree of freedom may be used if a set of two bearings is used to guide this appendage.
(ii)
One of the two bearings shall be a non- adjustable bearing positioned close to the hull.
(iii)
The other bearing may have a degree of freedom
.
If it exists, this degree of freedom shall be a translation and shall limit the rotation of the foil to an angle of 5 degrees.
(iv)
This angle is measured from the non- adjustable bearing positioned close to the hull shell

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2 hours ago, Chimp too said:

To me the natural development is to go narrow, very narrow. Reduce form stability right down and get rid of all that drag. Go single rudder, get rid of canting keel and have fixed keel with minimum bulb weight to achieve AVS. Rely on the foils for RM. have foils permanently out and change axis of adjustment to pitch.

Agreed, it’s the natural progression for the foiling and the class, But, it’s going to take a few more years and reliability in foils etc before anyone is confident enough to do a Vendee in one though.  Even then it could get very messy if there’s a heavy collision at speed, no foil, probably hull damage, lack of RM etc, etc and possibly in the Southern Ocean.  

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Forgot that they have added the extra adjustment of the onboard bearings.

to me the Design has to be based around the foil to take full advantage of them. So lose the foil and you are out of the race anyway. Might as well suck it up and accept it.

agree that a bit of can’t might be valuable, but as AVS is worst case any can’t needs to consider that. Also there is extra structural weight.

similarly, making the foils retractable is still extra weight that can be removed if you only pivot fore and aft at the inner end.

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On 8/23/2018 at 7:24 PM, Kenny Dumas said:

Pierre-François Dargnies: "Since the idea was to use the foils to get the power, it was necessary to design a hull that limits the drag, knowing that the gauge does not allow the total flight. This results in a very innovative hull, with a very frigated bow, a very rounded and closed transom.

My interpretation:  Instead of a conventional flat run aft for a planing surface, they use a more rounded hull for less wetted surface and form drag since the foils lift the boat.  Smart.

DlMBJ6IWsAACeoB.jpg

For info, fregaté which has been translated by google to frigated means "tumblehome", it might make more sense to some...

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Fantastic to see this boat in the real world - as opposed to the renders which give little meanigful info.

From the photos we can see a natural refinement of the Hugo Boss theme. HB had already gone for a narrower beam hull than was the vogue pre Dali foils. Charal has taken it a step further.

The Foil shape is highly suggestive of running the whole package at high angles of heel.

It is a 4 facet foil: 

Facet 1 being the tip, for some lift but prabably mostly leeway assistance/ end plate / surface piercing / drag reduction roles.

Facets 2 & 3 being the work horses for primary lift.

Facet 4 for just keeping the whole show connected back to the hull

It is most likely that you will see the foil flown through the water with facets 2&3 at a reasonably horisontal (my xy....sed is playing up on my keyboard)

This high angle of heel will in effect lengthen the lever between new centre of lift and the keel bulb - so generate more RM. Narrow hull has reduced WSA, aero/hydro drag and being a smaller structure will weigh less.

This would also explain and or support the unusual stern hull lines - the roundness of the hull on the centre line is flanked by two distinctly flat sections outboard of each rudder root. So acting as traditional flat runs aft when running high angles of heel when broad reaching.

The high heel angle will also run the rudders at or near vertical helping to maximise their control for a given WSA and also help reduce autopilot strain with associated programming and power consumption benefits. The high heel angles also rule out running just one centrally mounted rudder - I believe the whole package effectively runs two sets of waterplanes in a manner that is as close to "scow like" without being a scow becuase the class rules prohibit it currently.

Haven't seena photo yet of the rudder angles or hull underside that wasn't in a wide angle format with distortion - so difficult to be certain. The fact that the rudders remain underslung with endplating by the hull, clearly outweighs the advantage of transom mounted but no endplating - they do both lift up and away though.

Are they allowed to cant the mast back to upright or to weather? (As the Orma's used to?) as this would be the game changer in terms of releasing another performance upgrade.

Also from the photo above you can see the negative dimple around the keel root as seen in the old VO70's - neat - suggesting that flying the leel bulb in air maybe a deliberate mode.

Lots to look forward to as she gets worked up.

I expect the new HB to be more radical again........

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4 hours ago, Boink said:

Facet 1 being the tip, for some lift but prabably mostly leeway assistance/ end plate / surface piercing / drag reduction roles.

Na, its there so tired sailors can see if the foil is still there.

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indeed!  These will be extremely susceptible to impact damage, and that can/will be from waves as well as more solid objects.  We know that waves took out foils in the last edition.   There are times when you really don't want all this stuff hanging around out there.

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Yes, susceptible to impact damage - but ask yourself this question, seriously - "I want to win the Vendee Globe, do I want them or not?"

Because frankly you won't win the race without them.................

The design of these machines does not reflect a mass market requirement. They are highly specialised machines - Only the aesthetics will trickle down  (with chopped away deck edges and reverse sheer bows) and some bits of hardware and electronics 

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1 hour ago, GBH said:

indeed!  These will be extremely susceptible to impact damage, and that can/will be from waves as well as more solid objects.  We know that waves took out foils in the last edition.   There are times when you really don't want all this stuff hanging around out there.

This dumb debate about potential foil damage ceased years ago...it now belongs here alongside performance orientated Wind Vane shaft/axe damage...two so far start side of Cape Town...same design.

Though you still need to own a pair of flaired trousers and still listen to vinyl to participate in that appendage discussion there.

 

 

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3 days to her first see trials. Looking forward to seeing her sailing and at speed. 

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Why no T foils on the rudders? It would help to further reduce pitching, keep the bows up and reduce the (often huge amounts of) water coming over the bow. The big tris use them, why not the monos?

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AR testing a new foil last week in Lorient:

IMG_20180813_163228.thumb.jpg.467f856c02b4e7fa4f037257bdd0e71f.jpg

Also saw VR testing a single foil in Cap Coz but didn't take a pic as the crew were scowling at us!

 

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5 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Because you aren’t allowed a second axis of freedom on any appendage

Apart from the foils rotating fore and aft as well as retracting 

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5 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Because you aren’t allowed a second axis of freedom on any appendage

On top of that, I guess an inverted T rudder means that you forget about mechanical fuse to release the rudder in case you hit something. I can only imagine the loads the release mechanism would have to withstand once a T rudder is swinging horizontally ... 

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17 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Apart from the foils rotating fore and aft as well as retracting 

Whose foils rotate?

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On 8/26/2018 at 6:23 AM, Boink said:

Fantastic to see this boat in the real world - as opposed to the renders which give little meanigful info.

From the photos we can see a natural refinement of the Hugo Boss theme. HB had already gone for a narrower beam hull than was the vogue pre Dali foils. Charal has taken it a step further.

The Foil shape is highly suggestive of running the whole package at high angles of heel.

It is a 4 facet foil: 

 Facet 1 being the tip, for some lift but prabably mostly leeway assistance/ end plate / surface piercing / drag reduction roles.

Facets 2 & 3 being the work horses for primary lift.

Facet 4 for just keeping the whole show connected back to the hull

It is most likely that you will see the foil flown through the water with facets 2&3 at a reasonably horisontal (my xy....sed is playing up on my keyboard)

This high angle of heel will in effect lengthen the lever between new centre of lift and the keel bulb - so generate more RM. Narrow hull has reduced WSA, aero/hydro drag and being a smaller structure will weigh less.

This would also explain and or support the unusual stern hull lines - the roundness of the hull on the centre line is flanked by two distinctly flat sections outboard of each rudder root. So acting as traditional flat runs aft when running high angles of heel when broad reaching.

The high heel angle will also run the rudders at or near vertical helping to maximise their control for a given WSA and also help reduce autopilot strain with associated programming and power consumption benefits. The high heel angles also rule out running just one centrally mounted rudder - I believe the whole package effectively runs two sets of waterplanes in a manner that is as close to "scow like" without being a scow becuase the class rules prohibit it currently.

Haven't seena photo yet of the rudder angles or hull underside that wasn't in a wide angle format with distortion - so difficult to be certain. The fact that the rudders remain underslung with endplating by the hull, clearly outweighs the advantage of transom mounted but no endplating - they do both lift up and away though.

Are they allowed to cant the mast back to upright or to weather? (As the Orma's used to?) as this would be the game changer in terms of releasing another performance upgrade.

Also from the photo above you can see the negative dimple around the keel root as seen in the old VO70's - neat - suggesting that flying the leel bulb in air maybe a deliberate mode.

Lots to look forward to as she gets worked up.

I expect the new HB to be more radical again........

Thanks for the explanation! cool to hear about the design and the cues of where to look at for innovation beyond the obvious.

 

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4 minutes ago, JMOD said:

Are they allowed to cant the mast back to upright or to weather? (As the Orma's used to?) as this would be the game changer in terms of releasing another performance upgrade.

No, there was one that did, then outruled. Think Coville was the skipper of that one.

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