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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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oioi

New imoca boats

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Hump - can you elaborate on your statement.

 

My understanding, is that because the hinge line is still acting on the symmetrical centreline, that it will not move aft as cant angle increases.

It will however lead to a bulb with a nose up attitude. This needs to be accounted for with the bulb design and attachment point issues - because its change in attitude will increase its drag. The bulb is designed to pass through the water along its natural fore&aft axis - conversely, it is highly inefficient to push as bulb through the water sideways (i.e. 90 degrees off axis) - inclined hinges were talked about here as being between 4 and 9 degrees off neutral axis - thereby adding to the drag that would otherwise not be felt.

 

I know AC boats used to play around with fore and aft positioning of the bulb to use the mass of the bulb to induce twist in the keel fin.

 

We are used to seeing T-shaped keels where all forces are in alignment.

Imagine a bulb with the fin attached at the very front section of the bulb, so in an L shape ( early Farr Volvo 60's had this style of keel) - causing the CofG of the Bulb to hang behind the keel fin.

As the heel increases the mass of the bulb hanging behind the fin causes it to twist - with the leading edge being twisted to windward and if done to a controlled level, give a positive Angle of Attack to the fin when heeled - useful for boats that only did upwind and dead downwind courses - so the heeled scenario is only ever felt whilst going upwind - just when you want more lift from a skinny high aspect ratio short cord fin - as found on ACCC boats that also only did windward leewards.

 

Obviously - the reverse could be achieved if the fin attaches at the rear of the bulb only - but no one wants the fin generating twist to leeward.

 

Maybe clever laminate schedules and fibre layout could allow fins that have inclined hinge pins to "wash out" the fin twist so that the bulb "flies" true through the water with minimal drag.

Having the twist wash out would also reduce the Righting Moment losses that the inclined hinge pin fins can cause - the positive lift is working directly against the work been done by the bulbs mass in keeping the whole structure upright - as mentioned in the VPLP sketches.

 

Of course smarter minds have to work out which mix of the compromises works the best - especially on a RTW course such as the Vendee.

 

I recall 2 or more Vendees ago how the emphasis was to add upwind ability to the boats which until then had never performed well in that upwind slog from Cape horn back up the Atlantic - so was surprised when figure of 10% upwind only for the whole course was quoted here.

 

Certainly the sails are so much more resilient and better shaped - and the stiffer boat structures allow forestay tensions only dreamt of by the early generation vendee boats.

 

They have also evolved into both downwind skiffs that can also now sail on very heeled lines upwind with corresponding reductions in Wetted surface area, combined with the ever increasingly elaborate daggerboards, thereby improving their upwind ability.

 

Amazing boats and their skippers - I look forward to seeing what the bright minds will bring us.

 

 

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The axis of rotation of the keel is aligned with the vessel centreline but not to the waterline, being angled higher at the front/lower at the rear by whatever AoA the designer chooses. Picture the keel vertical - the leading edge is longer than the trailing edge to keep the bulb parallel to the waterline. Now picture it at 90 degrees - the longer leading edge moves the bulb aft relative to the pivot point. I appreciate it doesn't rotate this far but it is easier to visualise at 90 degrees. Obviously the aft movement is proportional to the sine of the rotation angle. This would also give the bulb an AoA relative to the flow, so I suspect that the bulb is given an initial angle relative to the keel strut to minimise drag at the "normal" keel angle.

Hump - can you elaborate on your statement.

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^^My brain starts to hurt here :).

 

Cannot see how the thinking about the hydrodynamics of a massive (19-21 tonnes) bulb for a fixed keel of an upwind/downwind fully crewed match racer would influence the design of a lightweight bulb of a canting keel for a yacht sailing 80-90% downwind/reaching.

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Ed,

 

We know that if the keel pin is not inclined, the keel simply moves from side-to-side.

 

Now, think about a vertical keel pin, one in which the keel at 0 degrees of cant is in front of the boat and when canted 90 degrees is beside the boat. Obviously you'd never build this mess, but also obviously, as it canted, the bulb moved aft.

 

That said, I'm not aware of any real interest in that change to the center of mass of the boat. I'm only aware of interest in the added vertical component of lift that comes from canting with an inclined pin.

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No, got it Hump..... Thanks

 

As you say the aft movement is proportional, and the difference in length between leading edge and trailing edge is not far.

 

(For a keel fin with a 1.0 meter chord and an incline pin of 4 degrees the difference is fraction under 70mm. I don't have a solver for the sine of rotation.)

 

Remember folks that with lift comes a relationship with drag.

Anything that alters the geometry of objects in the water will also add drag. It's the old adage of "No such thing as a Free Lunch".

 

The Vendee course is very long - small gains in efficiency do add up.

 

Creating a good all rounder in performance, with high efficiency is where Verdier and VPLP have excelled - and shown that it is not all about Max RM or highest peak possible performance in only a small window of opportunity (e.g. Juan K's monster Imoca 60 that even Brian Thompson couldn't drag into respectability - even though it was widely lauded as the most powerful boat of its time) - instead it is about creating a balanced solution with great efficiency and ticking off all the downsides that elaborate foils and high wetted surface area hulls might otherwise produce.

 

Dragging any bulb or foil off axis for 26,000 miles will add up to some sapping of the drive force required - that is the connection edouard.

 

 

 

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Thanks for the article link, in short, differences are subtle and small. Works best on beamy boats.

 

IMHO. Nothing revolutionary, more evolution.

Seen the movement of keels on minis for decades, climax was the 3d keel of Lucas :)

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Five new projects to be launched this year.

All designed by Van Peteghem Lauriot Prevost together with Verdier.

 

Safran (Morgan Lagravière)

Banque Populaire ( Armel le Cléac'h)

Edmond de Rothschild (Sébastian Josse)

Hugo Boss (Alex Thomson)

Saint-Michel Virbac (Jean Pierre Dick)

The Italian Andrea Mura has announed the intention to build a boat for the next Vendee Globe.

 

Source: Imoca.org News 683

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Pretty interesting post on VPLP's website:

 

http://www.vplp.fr/news/60/60/Lecon-de-foils.html

 

Sorry it's in French and I can't copy and translate full text.

 

Interesting tid bits:

 

"A first evoluion was the introduction of "tilt " in the new keel (the keel's rotation axle is at an angle wit the waterline plane, typically 4 to 9° on the new"standard" keels) , this creates an angle at the leading edge which "lightens" the boat, but also induces a loss in RM as the effort is to windward.

Therefore it was logical to work on the foils to regain the lost RM while dynamically further "lighten" the boat.

 

All VPLP-Verdier new Imocas will have those foils, although each team will have specific foil designs. it is anticipated that up to two days could be saved on a VG.

 

The largest progress shall be when reaching, downwind should also see an improvement, things should be more complicated when beating but ... that's only 10% of a Vendee.

 

And next ? Foils significantly "widen" the boats. Why not reduce the hull beam ?

 

To be continued"

Looks to be designed for a 35 d heel angle. As mentioned a reversal of the typical foil configuration due to this, uptip looks to be for LR and "strut" for lift, due to lateral deployment. Creative, wondering about gains from isolating the lifting section from ventilation.

Also in interest of cross-Channel relations, elegant and simple on a certain complex level.

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Putain! C'est going to be really fast ma poule. This could be a VPLP OD class pretty soon.

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I noticed that GAMESA is no longer listed for sale on the IMOCA website. However, Aviva is still available.

 

http://www.imoca.org/en/adverts

 

It looks like GAMESA is the boat Alessandro will be sailing.

He has mega-heaps of sea miles under his boots, but it will be interesting to see if Alessandro can get a 'racing' game on in this more competitive boat. He's done a lot of 'fast cruising' up until now.

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6 new builds in progress and all VPLP. No one willing to take a risk and be different. Its only 1 Vendee ago that a Farr won now they zero action apart from some '07's that will likely line up.

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Build stage aside, Safran and Gitana look to have quite different bow shapes up to the stem. The Safran bow reminds me of the Pogo 3's, tapering up to the stem quite a bit. Anyone know which was designed first?

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Build stage aside, Safran and Gitana look to have quite different bow shapes up to the stem. The Safran bow reminds me of the Pogo 3's, tapering up to the stem quite a bit. Anyone know which was designed first?

Looks to me like Gitana is designed to the fullest bow specs. allowed under the IMOCA 60 Rule. Had the rule NOT outlawed scow bows (like Mini, 747 TeamWork), she probably would be sporting an even blunter bow profile.

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Build stage aside, Safran and Gitana look to have quite different bow shapes up to the stem. The Safran bow reminds me of the Pogo 3's, tapering up to the stem quite a bit. Anyone know which was designed first?

Looks to me like Gitana is designed to the fullest bow specs. allowed under the IMOCA 60 Rule. Had the rule NOT outlawed scow bows (like Mini, 747 TeamWork), she probably would be sporting an even blunter bow profile.

 

Agreed. They've got to be close to or at the max that rule allows. They look mean though.

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Very skiff-like.

Flat bottomed, low free board. Not te be sailed in an angle, I guess.

demoulage-coque-et-pont-du-nouveau-edmond-de-rothschild-r-644-0.jpg

Careful. I suggested the same thing a couple years back...it didn't meet with favorable opinions.

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The only way to sail without angle is to sail with a very small sail area.Will not happen.

 

VPLP is doing what Farr did back a few decade ago, multiple teams with all other design features.

Other designers will get along in the future, nobody has a stronghold for long.

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I guess racing fast uphill is not intended. All well and good until there's no option of course. <_<

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It is just me, or we all looking on the deck side of the hull.... it is just taken out of the mold upside down.

 

I have just read in the article about new Gitana open60 on daily sail...... Once the structure has been bonded in, we’ll be able to join the hull and deck - a phase which should be completed in April. This phase promises to quite unique - it will be a first for the teams as Gitana 16 is built split horizontally along her entire length. Usually, we complete the deck and hull. Without going into too much detail, that’s linked to the [shape of the] hull below the waterline."

 

The same is with picture of the mold for new Vibrac..... Because if this is mold for the bothom part of the hull, than visualization is totaly wrong.

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Looks like a chine join to me. probably because of some severe tumblehome above the chine to reduce windage etc. Never liked that approach as that means there has to be some secondary bonding on the hull surface, which needs fairing. Green Marine have tried it a few times as have others. If these boats have the chine half way up the topside and then severe tumblehome then I can see a reason for doing it though.

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The new colour scheme of Safran for Morgan Lagravière has been released.

"With a metallic grey base, evoking the high-tech credentials of Safran, the orange decals of the old monohull this time are in turquoise, while the appendages are in a fluorescent lime green."

http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/news/article/14696/the-new-safran-unveils-her-colours.html
Safran2_470.jpg

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I was looking for any updates on Alex Thomsons new boat - but couldnt find much, although this looks interesting........Lifted straight from alexthomsonracing.com/ ......

 

"A collaboration agreement with Alex Thomson Racing has been signed today with Haydale Graphene Industries plc
Alex Thomson Racing (ATR) has reached an agreement with Haydale Graphene Industries plc (Haydale). The Technical Team at ATR will implement their graphene based products and technology in their latest Research and Development programme. Haydale technology has been selected to be used in future design concepts of the HUGO BOSS IMOCA 60 which Alex Thomson competes on in the Ocean Masters Championships.
The Technical Team at ATR are developing materials and techniques never used before to improve on overall strength and stiffness, which could be implemented in prospective projects. ATR will provide a review for Haydale on areas such as the bearings and friction points and provide reports looking at critical areas such as delamination of materials and thermal heat management."

 

I dont know much about graphene except that its potential is only just being scratched at - has anyone tried this before? Do they use it in Formula 1? Is HB well ahead of the curve on this?

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I was looking for any updates on Alex Thomsons new boat - but couldnt find much, although this looks interesting........Lifted straight from alexthomsonracing.com/ ......

 

"A collaboration agreement with Alex Thomson Racing has been signed today with Haydale Graphene Industries plc

Alex Thomson Racing (ATR) has reached an agreement with Haydale Graphene Industries plc (Haydale). The Technical Team at ATR will implement their graphene based products and technology in their latest Research and Development programme. Haydale technology has been selected to be used in future design concepts of the HUGO BOSS IMOCA 60 which Alex Thomson competes on in the Ocean Masters Championships.

The Technical Team at ATR are developing materials and techniques never used before to improve on overall strength and stiffness, which could be implemented in prospective projects. ATR will provide a review for Haydale on areas such as the bearings and friction points and provide reports looking at critical areas such as delamination of materials and thermal heat management."

 

I dont know much about graphene except that its potential is only just being scratched at - has anyone tried this before? Do they use it in Formula 1? Is HB well ahead of the curve on this?

I saw an opportunity for graphene in the wings of the AC.

Ultra light, ultra thin and ultra strong is what is being described about graphene.

I hope it will work out.

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B_Vj7JRXEAAHC8b.jpg

Menacing comes to mind. Look at that Foil! Can't wait to see it in action.

 

Rudders seem to have moved quite a bit forward, also. Previous boats with kick up rudders had thier blades just forward of the transom. These look another 1/2 m forward of that.

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The inboard kick up rudder details will be interesting. They're doubling down on the small cockpit concept and undoubtedly saving a lot of weight. With all the structure that's undoubtedly going to be in the middle of that boat there's probably only going to be a small hatch to go fwd of the mast.

 

I imagine the DSS boards will show a performance increase otherwise they wouldn't use them but board security is going to be an issue - if you break one you're screwed because you can't end for end them like daggers.

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I like how protected the rudders are while lifted. In fact the whole steering system seems like it's been improved.

Yep, some photos from aft and fat bow.

 

post-26739-0-89973200-1425585611_thumb.jpgpost-26739-0-28903100-1425585620_thumb.jpgpost-26739-0-35351700-1425585631_thumb.jpg

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Not sure I understand how the kick-ups work. Wouldn't they have to pass through the large bulkheads / steering mechanism struts?

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Nothing missing ???

 

B_WE61WWEAE8qzs.jpg

60 footer dinghy

Seeing that they've had chronic keel problems for the past two Vendees I'm really not surprised. Innovative way to solve the problem.

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Those pics clarify the rudder position -they are right at the aft end when down, same as older boats. But the entire assembly rotates horizontally & moves the blades well inboard.

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From the Haydale web site.

 

 

3. Polymers & Composites

We announced in June 2014 the results of some independent research by The Aerospace Corporation in the USA, that demonstrated substantial improvements in epoxy composite strength and stiffness. For this market, the Haydale plasma process has the potential to offer functionalised nanomaterials for the enhancement of polymers and composites, whilst maintaining structural integrity, thereby eliminating a key barrier to the commercialisation of graphenes.

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Old PRB had kind of same rudder config.

 

But damn that foil, nice experiment.

But bring a big scrubber for all the debris that it will collect, a daggerboard is easier in that aspect :)

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Is the traveler forward as a function of the shorter cockpit or have they been doing this on the new boats for a while now? Seem to remember them on the transom.

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Is the traveler forward as a function of the shorter cockpit or have they been doing this on the new boats for a while now? Seem to remember them on the transom.

 

It started happening when the covered cockpits came about, Macif and Banque pop were well forward last time around.

 

Mast further back then before, is that a trend I missed ?

 

Comes from the work VPLP/Verdier did with Comanche, they kept moving the mast back in the models and figured it works.

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Is the traveler forward as a function of the shorter cockpit or have they been doing this on the new boats for a while now? Seem to remember them on the transom.

It might be for the vang, I think some boats have a purchase system attached to a car and traveller and then use a sheet attached to the end of the boom. Remember 12 metre vangs?

post-42706-0-43970800-1425666812_thumb.jpg

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Not really. Doubt sets in when most shots are set up to hide that part of the hull.

 

The weights will be most interesting. SOH is much heavier than the previous generation.

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Thanks Charlie for mast comment.

Its time to see them this year again, enough new stuff to see.

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Even if you carried a spare, replacing a foil at sea would seem next to impossible.

 

Maybe I'm imagining things but Comanche seemed to pound extra hard upwind. There was also a rule about stacking in the S2H so maybe it had to do with upwind trim.

 

No forward ballast in the new IMOCA?

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Is the traveler forward as a function of the shorter cockpit or have they been doing this on the new boats for a while now? Seem to remember them on the transom.

 

It started happening when the covered cockpits came about, Macif and Banque pop were well forward last time around.

 

Mast further back then before, is that a trend I missed ?

 

Comes from the work VPLP/Verdier did with Comanche, they kept moving the mast back in the models and figured it works.

 

 

I think it is rather the other way around, i.e. the Safran design started/existed before Comanche.

 

 

 

1979737_957856867565413_3326290346671016

Boom is now fitted.

Lattice boom? Really? Stupid unrepairable things

 

 

The old Safran has a similar boom and never had a failure.

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"When did dropping hundreds of balloons into the sea become ok? Biodegradable or not, seems like a bit of a dick move."

 

Ed, who gives an shit about a couple of balloons when the sky's covered in artificial clouds from the global geo-engineering operations (by the way, on these pictures and videos too)...no one (and by that I mean 99.999% of the population) has't got the faintest clue that the whole planet is being sprayed with millions of tons of aluminum, barium and whatever else they're spraying down on all of us...compared to that a couple of balloons seem very, very, very, very, very, very trivial.

 

By the way: nice boat! The mast is stepped way towards the back, very much like on VPLP's comanche. I'm curious about the lift to drag ratio on those foils.

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Dali Moustache has got a whole lot more flair and panache than uptip....... I really hope they get them to work.

 

The forward traveller is just another refinement to the system that Mich Desjoyeux introduced back in 1991 with his Mini Transat boat Fouesnant (Boat No.29)

That had a horseshoe vang track and transom sheet mainsheet and the first canting keel seen in the fleet.

 

The mainsheet and vang were later combined into what you see today on his Open 60 PRB (the first one)

He always wanted to get better leech control that this system gives.

 

What is interesting is how the length of the Horseshoe has shortened over time - earlier variants ran forward along the gunwales almost to shroud or deck spreader points - but as the boat speeds have increased and the apparent wind has moved forward the need to square the boom has become obsolete - hence the shorter but still full width traveller tracks that you see now. They also carry far fewer loose luffed downwind sails and use Code Zero type screechers to much greater effect - all in the offshore skiff style that this class has morphed into.

 

I suspect that the structural engineers use the vang/traveller requirement to add a nice deep beam to help with the loads that must be trying to twist the hull in every which way - and the resulting wall adds a nice bit of cockpit security - which are increasingly using the covered steering positions to stay vaguely dry.

 

Does anyone know of the water ballast layout on these new boats? - last edition Vendee boats had central tanks immediately forward of the mast for increased inertia - useful to help such lightweight surfboards get upwind, as well as wing tanks - but I believe the 10 degree rule is not what it once was.

 

The rearward march of the mast location has several parallels to the Comanche programme - also a VPLP creation - they kept moving the mast back and finding it faster.... Ken Read talks about this somewhere - just not sure if North are involved in the Safran programme.

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It looks like the Dali foils are meant to provide righting moment, and speed more than actually lifting the boat out of the water. If so, this is a very clever way of mimicking the stability attributes of a trimaran through the use of foils and explains why the rudders don't have elevators. Can't wait to see it sail!

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As I understand it, the foils are in response to a loss of righting moment, from the tilt to the canting keel axis (similar to the VO65 set up, presumably). The foils help to restore this lost righting moment, according to VPLP.

 

http://www.vplp.fr/en/informations-en/news-en.html

 

post-76289-0-36488500-1425969777_thumb.jpg

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As I understand it, the foils are in response to a loss of righting moment, from the tilt to the canting keel axis (similar to the VO65 set up, presumably). The foils help to restore this lost righting moment, according to VPLP.

 

Not just counter the existing moment, but allow for a much more aggressive tilt for even more lift. Probably only limited by the amount of drag you are prepared to wear, and that is a question of balancing the design against the expected wind conditions for the race.

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These foils are not designed to lift the hull clear of the water - yes to provide lift, reduce hull immersion and generate lots of extra righting moment - but not get the hull out - so rudder stabilisers are not required.

Sure there will be a few lurching moments in freak waves while they sort out the correct board settings - but it needs to been seen as "widening the sweet spot" as described by Hugh Welborne - the lift way out to leeward effectively lengthens the righting moment lever (think of the keel bulb at one end, now levering from the turn of the foil, rather than the traditional centre of buoyancy within the hull) allowing the whole boat to run more powerfully.

 

These latest generation of VPLP hulls have been seen to be very wide and flat - but as the diagram above illustrates - the hull is really meant to be sailed on one chine or the other - massively reducing the wetted surface area and all the drag that is typically associated with such flat and wide hulls with such little rocker.

The lift of the foils will also serve to reduce the wetted surface further - but as commented here and elsewhere - lose a foil or even a foil tip - and the boat will be lame duck on that tack.

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As I understand it, the foils are in response to a loss of righting moment, from the tilt to the canting keel axis (similar to the VO65 set up, presumably). The foils help to restore this lost righting moment, according to VPLP.

 

http://www.vplp.fr/en/informations-en/news-en.html

 

Glorified training wheels?

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As I understand it, the foils are in response to a loss of righting moment, from the tilt to the canting keel axis (similar to the VO65 set up, presumably). The foils help to restore this lost righting moment, according to VPLP.

 

http://www.vplp.fr/en/informations-en/news-en.html

Glorified training wheels?

 

More like a racing side cart I think. ;)

post-76289-0-42421700-1426011663_thumb.jpg

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As I understand it, the foils are in response to a loss of righting moment, from the tilt to the canting keel axis (similar to the VO65 set up, presumably). The foils help to restore this lost righting moment, according to VPLP.

 

http://www.vplp.fr/en/informations-en/news-en.html

Glorified training wheels?

 

More like a racing side cart I think. ;)

 

Yea, where the sidecar bloke is the keel, and a wing would be lifting the starboard side of the bike.

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"When did dropping hundreds of balloons into the sea become ok? Biodegradable or not, seems like a bit of a dick move."

 

Ed, who gives an shit about a couple of balloons when the sky's covered in artificial clouds from the global geo-engineering operations (by the way, on these pictures and videos too)...no one (and by that I mean 99.999% of the population) has't got the faintest clue that the whole planet is being sprayed with millions of tons of aluminum, barium and whatever else they're spraying down on all of us...compared to that a couple of balloons seem very, very, very, very, very, very trivial.

 

By the way: nice boat! The mast is stepped way towards the back, very much like on VPLP's comanche. I'm curious about the lift to drag ratio on those foils.

Nice move man , now everyone's gonna find out and do nothing.

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Could be that that acute bends are a Titanium part socketed into Carbon Foils.......

 

Would massively speed up construction of these complex shapes - maybe allowing multiple generations to be tried and tested before Race start.

 

Whoever refines these complex foils the most will kill their opposition come race time.

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I see both sides, but, in the end, simple is best in the beginning, and almost always later...

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The titanium is for the joining piece, a substantial piece of metal that both ends of the "J" connect to. Not sure whether they are screwed in like the AC72 and GC32 foils or bonded some other way - depends where they were built, I guess.

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The titanium is for the joining piece, a substantial piece of metal that both ends of the "J" connect to. Not sure whether they are screwed in like the AC72 and GC32 foils or bonded some other way - depends where they were built, I guess.

You got pictures you can post up Clean?

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