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New imoca boats

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On 7/14/2019 at 6:34 PM, 3to1 said:

no pitch control, a fragile wing and a prayer.

they're gamblers.

 


Keep in mind all those pictures being circulated for Charal were taken during her first public event and quite early on in the post delivery process. All teams go thru the development process of pushing the limits then scaling back. We don't know her configuration, whether her foils will be revised, whether internal ballast was being used, and how much gear was aboard. 

What people are saying as "too much limit" in unknown variables can quickly become "just right amount" once the boat is loaded up with the full inventory of VG sails, gear and keel in the right angle. 

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3 hours ago, serialsailor said:

"First" pic of the Kouyoumdjian design for Sébastien Simon. Very interesting but we need more angles to understand what's going on here.

D_xqvaDXkAIRNy3.jpg large.jpg

Looks like a nice paddling pool area just in front of the coach roof. 

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Dynamic water ballast loophole?

Maybe it is the paint job and angle but that boat doesn't look symmetrical to me

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It is. 
check the video out.

I think the chine on the topside towards the stern is to increase the beam to ensure the outrigger is as far out as it can be. without getting the boat too wide as thats just jeavier

 

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5 hours ago, serialsailor said:

"First" pic of the Kouyoumdjian design for Sébastien Simon. Very interesting but we need more angles to understand what's going on here.

D_xqvaDXkAIRNy3.jpg large.jpg

imo, looks pretty easy to see what's going on here. looks like a nice, sensible, powerful all-rounder that will be easy to push hard in the heavy airs. hope the sailor is worthy, cause this thing looks like a podium contender. let the foiler guys stress about breakage and funky performance while a boat like this just get's to work with less headache.

my hunch is this is a good JK boat, not a dog one.

 

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22 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

looks pretty easy to see what's going on here. looks like a nice, sensible, powerful all-rounder that will be easy to push hard in the heavy airs. hope the sailor is worthy, cause this thing looks like a podium contender. let the foiler guys stress about breakage and funky performance while a boat like this just get's to work with less headache.

my hunch is this is a good JK boat, not a dog one.

 

Uhh you know it is going to have foils right?

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4 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Uhh you know it is going to have foils right?

now I do. excuse my ignorance.

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Like I understand foiling isn't everyone's cup of tea but you're not going to see another competitive imoca built without foils. The last VG proved it and the foiling boats didn't have a higher attrition level than the conventional boats. The top foilers avoided worse weather, reefed their mainsail earlier and weren't less safe. 

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7 hours ago, serialsailor said:

"First" pic of the Kouyoumdjian design for Sébastien Simon. Very interesting but we need more angles to understand what's going on here.

D_xqvaDXkAIRNy3.jpg large.jpg

Skinny and drier. Interesting. 

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10 hours ago, 3to1 said:

imo, looks pretty easy to see what's going on here. looks like a nice, sensible, powerful all-rounder that will be easy to push hard in the heavy airs. hope the sailor is worthy, cause this thing looks like a podium contender. let the foiler guys stress about breakage and funky performance while a boat like this just get's to work with less headache.

my hunch is this is a good JK boat, not a dog one.

 

After seeing a few other pics i pretty much agree. Beam seems not to far away from charal's, but it is much flatter at the stern, which looks more "conventionnal". I think the foils will look very different from those of charal, given where the foils come out on the deck.

the view from the top might be misleading because of the chine. the waterline beam looks quite a bit narrower.

looks like there was a big attempt to lower the CG, as always, but this manifests with new shapes/solutions, because it's from another architect. That makes the boat interesting to the eye at least. But indeed it does not look to extreme. Now let's wait for the foils and to see it sailing.

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1 hour ago, GibGibGib said:

Here is a quick & dirty edit of Charal and the new Arkea side by side, can't wait to see the others...

BKYZFZF.png

Mast slightly further aft maybe?  Seems a little less beam. Interesting that the stern is enclosed as well.  Not like PRB where they used the top surface for easier stacking but just enclosed along the traveler.  All the recent boats have been open and basically underwater. Safety?

All of the following are in French of course.

Summary of the release of Arkea P:

http://www.courseaularge.com/imoca-arkea-paprec-sortie-de-chantier.html

Charal update on the link below.  Its taken them about year to get the boat as Beyou says 'really coherent'.  They have a very good head start on the new competition.'

https://www.scanvoile.com/2019/07/jeremie-beyou-charal-imoca-entrainement-.html#.XTG8ni_YphE

Also latest TJV start list here

https://www.scanvoile.com/2019/07/transat-jacques-vabre-plus-de-30-imoca-au-depart-fin-octobre.html#.XTG8Yy_YphE

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2 hours ago, terrafirma said:

what's the hole in the hull in the "E" area behind the Foil? Water drain? 

Anchor point for the cable below the deck spreader 

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5 hours ago, jb5 said:

Mast slightly further aft maybe?  Seems a little less beam. Interesting that the stern is enclosed as well.  Not like PRB where they used the top surface for easier stacking but just enclosed along the traveler.  All the recent boats have been open and basically underwater. Safety?

All of the following are in French of course.

Summary of the release of Arkea P:

http://www.courseaularge.com/imoca-arkea-paprec-sortie-de-chantier.html

Charal update on the link below.  Its taken them about year to get the boat as Beyou says 'really coherent'.  They have a very good head start on the new competition.'

https://www.scanvoile.com/2019/07/jeremie-beyou-charal-imoca-entrainement-.html#.XTG8ni_YphE

Also latest TJV start list here

https://www.scanvoile.com/2019/07/transat-jacques-vabre-plus-de-30-imoca-au-depart-fin-octobre.html#.XTG8Yy_YphE

There is a quote in the first article (from either JK, Riou or Simon) that says they might be even lighter as Riou's old PRB, which was supposed to be the lightest boat in the fleet.

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1 hour ago, SSolo said:

looks like the locals have been out with the hack saws

So we know the end of the boat trip. I prefer to know that it served as raw material for lots of useful objects in Madagascar, rather than imagine it continue to be a floating danger for the sailors of the next Vendée Globe or the Jules Verne Trophy. It allows me to turn the page, " concludes Kito de Pavant.

https://www.scanvoile.com/2019/07/bastide-otio-retrouve-kito-de-pavant-imoca-bateau-retrouve-chavirage-vendee-globe.html#.XTNBnS_YphE

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Bows are really redefined the last decade :)

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On 7/20/2019 at 2:46 AM, huey 2 said:

Interesting article. We learn that Roura is very happy with his foils, installed just before the last Route du Rhum, on this 2007 Finot-Conq design. He has done a lot of modifications, including moving outward the ballast tanks to increase righting moment and sanding off all the paint inside the boat to gain 40 kg!!!

He also move the J2 tack point forward, improving performance in lighter air.

And he broke the North Atlantic crossing held by Marc Gullemot!

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https://www.scanvoile.com/2019/07/juan-k-architecte-kouyoumdjian-arkea-paprec-sebastien-simon-dessin-monocoque-itw-.html#.XTRYAy_YphE

Juan K comments on the new Arkea Paprec.

We designed a boat cut for the Vendée Globe" In low speeds, the hull is essential and in high speeds, it is the foils. We must therefore use the statistics and agree to compromise on the design. We designed a boat cut for the Vendée Globe. The fact that one person must be able to lead this machine around the world is one of the fundamental criteria for design and construction.

No consideration of potential TOR usage requirements afterwards, as expected.

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10 hours ago, Laurent said:

 and sanding off all the paint inside the boat to gain 40 kg!

C'mon 40 kilos of paint on the inside, WTH ??

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25 minutes ago, Essex said:

C'mon 40 kilos of paint on the inside, WTH ??

That must have been an extremely hard-fought 40 kg.

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14 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

At what point does a “monohull” become a scow?

 

 

It’s not pretty, but obviously only as far as they can go by the rules. Be interesting to see that goes?? It won’t be the first time Juan K has hit the extreme corner of a rule to try something strange......not always successfully in this class.

 

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Re the paint inside. Kind of a thing made more popular in the class 40 and mini classes. No one paints new competitive boats' interior anymore. 

In IMOCA. Go back 6 years and even Macif was painted. 

Interesting what ppl learn and cross pollinate. 

Re the bow. I'd guess everyone pushes the bow to the max 1.4m beam at 1 meter from the tip of the bow. Not sure how scows and monohulls are mutually exclusive. Kind of like asking at what point a sports car becomes a car. 

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On 7/19/2019 at 2:25 AM, 3to1 said:

imo, looks pretty easy to see what's going on here. looks like a nice, sensible, powerful all-rounder that will be easy to push hard in the heavy airs. hope the sailor is worthy, cause this thing looks like a podium contender. let the foiler guys stress about breakage and funky performance while a boat like this just get's to work with less headache.

my hunch is this is a good JK boat, not a dog one.

 

I’m going to wait and see before making that call, you never know with JK........

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23 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Re the paint inside. Kind of a thing made more popular in the class 40 and mini classes. No one paints new competitive boats' interior anymore. 

In IMOCA. Go back 6 years and even Macif was painted. 

Interesting what ppl learn and cross pollinate. 

Re the bow. I'd guess everyone pushes the bow to the max 1.4m beam at 1 meter from the tip of the bow. Not sure how scows and monohulls are mutually exclusive. Kind of like asking at what point a sports car becomes a car. 

The bow/forefoot area look distorted to push a measurement point to the max in my eye. 

Oh yeah, I can remember W60s and older not painted down below. 

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On 7/20/2019 at 6:32 PM, jb5 said:

So we know the end of the boat trip. I prefer to know that it served as raw material for lots of useful objects in Madagascar, rather than imagine it continue to be a floating danger for the sailors of the next Vendée Globe or the Jules Verne Trophy. It allows me to turn the page, " concludes Kito de Pavant.

Is it also a way to discharge himself from the cleaning? Easier to say that it will serve locally instead of finding funds to repatriate the remains...

In a way, usage by the locals is probably the best way to recycle it, not sure what they would have done with the remains back in Europe or wherever.

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374677-dc30b1836ae26bcb668b2c1384afaca6-

Pogo3, it is nice to check the laminate skills of the yard :)

There is a dusting technique that needs minimal of paint but still cover it enough to appear nicely painted. Just do not look closely.

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less place for sail stacking ?

And tumblehome becoming fashionable again, who would have thought...

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I like it, like the semi scow minis, I guess you could still stack inside in the middle and at the back of the cockpit?

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3 hours ago, GibGibGib said:

Side by side with the previous Arkea-Paprec (formerly Riou's PRB, still pretty fast with it's new foils)

67620006_2346129192341298_91158424281782

67402576_2346042292349988_16576839927212

Cockpit seems pretty spacious for a IMOCA and there doesn't appear to be any specific helming seating area unless its in front of the winches very far forward.  Protected but would be tight with the control lines all coming into that space.  Driving is for the AP clearly. Stacking inside the cockpit i guess, a lot more lifting involved than the PRB or Charal arrangement but lower COG.  Also the stern doesn't seem to be underwater like BP/Gitana/HB/etc for the last generation.

I like this boat a lot. It has great lines. Can't wait to see the foils.

Surprised that PRB hasn't yet been repainted.

Also, the NY-Vendee race is officially back just prior to the VG and after the Transat.  The Transat is now Brest-Charleston.

https://www.scanvoile.com/2019/07/IMOCA-la-new-york-vendee-les-sables-revient-en-2020.html#.XTWvKi_YphE

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godamn, that's a stunner.

nice big cockpit, I wonder if helming seating is in anyway modular.

 

67402576_2346042292349988_1657683992721227776_o.thumb.jpg.ae3ed4c17fe41eb9794497018778aa92.jpg

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8 hours ago, jb5 said:

Also the stern doesn't seem to be underwater like BP/Gitana/HB/etc for the last generation.

Stern just kissing water now.  Add boom, sails etc and it’ll be under.

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6 hours ago, 3to1 said:

godamn, that's a stunner.

nice big cockpit, I wonder if helming seating is in anyway modular.

 

67402576_2346042292349988_1657683992721227776_o.thumb.jpg.ae3ed4c17fe41eb9794497018778aa92.jpg

Wouldn't rule out that tiller extending forward as well.  The little lookout bubbles on P/S are cute.

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They need something to step from cockpit to the deck, like a ladder :)
No place for a normal Watt &Sea generator on the back, will be interesting what their solution is.

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19 hours ago, Chimp too said:

A lot more freeboard, particularly aft, than I would expect. 

I agree.  Seems way too high in relation to the person standing in the cockpit and getting forward easily wont be.  Not sure how to be PC about this but is that person an adult?  Seems too short.

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16 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Stern just kissing water now.  Add boom, sails etc and it’ll be under.

Looks as if its already under when i zoom in. :wacko:

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20 hours ago, Chimp too said:

A lot more freeboard, particularly aft, than I would expect. 

I don't know if they're still using the 90 degree test, but I know freeboard aft helps with that.

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1 hour ago, jb5 said:

I agree.  Seems way too high in relation to the person standing in the cockpit and getting forward easily wont be.  Not sure how to be PC about this but is that person an adult?  Seems too short.

VFXq4qA.png


Well, if you're talking about this dude, that's Sebastien Simon, the skipper himself.

Between the seemingly difficult access to the deck and the absence of a helming seat, I wonder if there is more work to be done on the boat later..

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Could be sitting a little bow high at the moment - not sure what's the interior fit out like, but the traveler is definitely pushed further aft than other recent modern builds. Perhaps there's more additions to come cover the cockpit/deck sides? Compared to more recent IMOCAs of the past 2 cycles, the cockpit has quite a bit more space at the moment, so perhaps there'll be a drop in box U box to nicely finish the side & aft. 

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The deck is high relative to the cockpit because the cockpit sole is low to get vcg down. Topsides after doesn’t help with the 90 degree rule because they have hardly any volume. Just seems like extra unnecessary structure to me, which is extra unnecessary weight. 

I would get rid of as much topsides away from the middle, where you need the structure, as possible.

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On 7/22/2019 at 2:08 PM, LeoV said:

less place for sail stacking ?

And tumblehome becoming fashionable again, who would have thought...

I’m pretty sure they do it to lower cg or something. It’s the only plausible explanation.

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19 hours ago, r.finn said:

Wouldn't rule out that tiller extending forward as well.  The little lookout bubbles on P/S are cute.

I would expect to see a fold down helm seat between the vertical strut and the winches. Agree on the extendable tiller. 

Expect there will be a step(s) from the cockpit floor to the side deck when the stack isn't in the cockpit to climb up and onto the deck. Does appear there are water ballast tanks in the sides of the cockpit too

 

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1 hour ago, Raptorsailor said:

I’m pretty sure they do it to lower cg or something. It’s the only plausible explanation.

Lower wind resistance and faster wave shedding.  

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1 hour ago, Raptorsailor said:

I’m pretty sure they do it to lower cg or something. It’s the only plausible explanation.

 

16 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Lower wind resistance and faster wave shedding.  

All of this plus reduced section girth (ie less weight), plus more midsectional grip on the water when heeled.

 

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11 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

 

All of this plus reduced section girth (ie less weight), plus more midsectional grip on the water when heeled.

 

When form stability and hydrodynamic/aerodynamic stuff is more important than packing the rail with hungry rail potatoes, design options open up.

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7 hours ago, Left Shift said:

When form stability and hydrodynamic/aerodynamic stuff is more important than packing the rail with hungry rail potatoes, design options open up.

Yes what I was thinking and less work for a lonesome sailor.! Also looking at the shape of the hull (Max Beam) there could be a spot down below that would work fine. 

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After significantly enlarging this pic, I saw that there is a seat in a tiny cubby on the starboard side.  Going by the angles of the coach-roof, there should be an identical cubby on the port side as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the tiller would be used from the seats in these cubbies.

Seat.thumb.jpg.86db56da6cdbe01b42b9a855b3fbc2a9.jpg

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20 minutes ago, QBF said:

After significantly enlarging this pic, I saw that there is a seat in a tiny cubby on the starboard side.  Going by the angles of the coach-roof, there should be an identical cubby on the port side as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the tiller would be used from the seats in these cubbies.

Seat.thumb.jpg.86db56da6cdbe01b42b9a855b3fbc2a9.jpg

I'm reporting you to the moderators for using the word "cubby" three times in one post.

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35 minutes ago, QBF said:

After significantly enlarging this pic, I saw that there is a seat in a tiny cubby on the starboard side.  Going by the angles of the coach-roof, there should be an identical cubby on the port side as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the tiller would be used from the seats in these cubbies.

Seat.thumb.jpg.86db56da6cdbe01b42b9a855b3fbc2a9.jpg

Seems to face the wrong way and have little protection for a seat.  Looks more like a possible fold down step.  I think they will helm from forward of the winches under cover, when they helm at all. If they are not going to add any structure (and weight) inside the cockpit then they are going to need some sort of step to get on deck more easily.  Still seems an awkward arrangement esp. solo.  You need to get forward fast and you have to climb up to get out.

The escape hatch at the rear also looks interestingly high given the very low deck.  There I assume must be a tunnel, must be very small.

 

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42 minutes ago, QBF said:

After significantly enlarging this pic, I saw that there is a seat in a tiny cubby on the starboard side.  Going by the angles of the coach-roof, there should be an identical cubby on the port side as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the tiller would be used from the seats in these cubbies.

Seat.thumb.jpg.86db56da6cdbe01b42b9a855b3fbc2a9.jpg

Looks very low and no visibility for a seat.  Maybe those VG sailors are so badass they just stand all the time around the world and can make the leap from the cockpit to the deck in a single bound?

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10 hours ago, huey 2 said:

  EAK_A7EXoAULiSy.thumb.jpg.44b4abd75a3a422de716663216d6cd57.jpg

Was Hot Rod the designer for this one. Bold choice Alex.

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1 hour ago, jb5 said:

Seems to face the wrong way and have little protection for a seat.  Looks more like a possible fold down step.  I think they will helm from forward of the winches under cover, when they helm at all. If they are not going to add any structure (and weight) inside the cockpit then they are going to need some sort of step to get on deck more easily.  Still seems an awkward arrangement esp. solo.  You need to get forward fast and you have to climb up to get out.

The escape hatch at the rear also looks interestingly high given the very low deck.  There I assume must be a tunnel, must be very small.

 

Going to be pretty hard to helm while sitting forward of the winches, the grinding pedestal will pose a problem. I stand by a snap in or fold down seat just aft of the winches,  of course it will be carbon. Here's a pic showing the seats on Charal 08_charal-60-imoca-vendee-globe.jpg

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1 hour ago, ctutmark said:

Going to be pretty hard to helm while sitting forward of the winches, the grinding pedestal will pose a problem. I stand by a snap in or fold down seat just aft of the winches,  of course it will be carbon. Here's a pic showing the seats on Charal 08_charal-60-imoca-vendee-globe.jpg

Yes quite possibly.

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11 hours ago, JoeBleaux said:

Is it missing the bow right now, or am I looking at this wrong?

Bow is to the right in the image and the mold halves are separated 

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26 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

Bow is to the right in the image and the mold halves are separated 

That makes more sense, thanks

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3 hours ago, bridhb said:

Looks very low and no visibility for a seat.  Maybe those VG sailors are so badass they just stand all the time around the world and can make the leap from the cockpit to the deck in a single bound?

Looking at the scale of what I assume is a norma human being, that "seat" is very low, has no visibility, no view of instrumentation, is facing the wrong way, has no foot brace and if the driver poked his/her head up a face full of water would their reward.  Otherwise it's a great location ... for reading a book.

I suspect that that tiller is used primarily when docking the boat and that the boat is steered by auto-pilot 99% of the time.  It looks like the engine controls are right there.

I also suspect that the cockpit is going to be filled with flaked headsails on furlers.  Although won't most of the sails be hoisted -  furled or deployed - most of the time.  If there are no sails stashed back there, getting on deck is going to be a great leap forward.  A subtle way of going for Chinese sponsorship?

 

My question is "What are those circular deals on the sloped cockpit sides?  Water ballast access ports?

And why does the cockpit sole protector have a rectangular hole in the middle?  

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On 7/23/2019 at 8:11 PM, Chimp too said:

The deck is high relative to the cockpit because the cockpit sole is low to get vcg down. Topsides after doesn’t help with the 90 degree rule because they have hardly any volume. Just seems like extra unnecessary structure to me, which is extra unnecessary weight. 

I would get rid of as much topsides away from the middle, where you need the structure, as possible.

But there is a minimum freeboard requirement in the rule I think

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10 hours ago, bridhb said:

Looks very low and no visibility for a seat.  Maybe those VG sailors are so badass they just stand all the time around the world and can make the leap from the cockpit to the deck in a single bound?

Pretty sure that is the ballast dump valve.

 

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3 hours ago, Frankie_NZ said:

Pretty sure that is the ballast dump valve.

 

Can't imagine anyone wanting to sit there, no protection and will get very wet at speed. Looks way too small too. You have to be relatively comfortable to sail around the world no matter how "Bad Ass" they might be. :ph34r:

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11 hours ago, yl75 said:

But there is a minimum freeboard requirement in the rule I think

No there isn’t. Just governed by minimum stability rules driving it to an extent 

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Sam Davies in latest Tip&Shaft;
And how is the sail programme changing as the boats go faster and faster?
The sail programme we’re working on a new sail with All Purpose Sails, it’s interesting because  the flexibility you need offshore when foiling in transitional moments when you have everything in the water and then with the foil taking off, then we’re at high speeds. We are limited to eight sails in the Vendee Globe so it’s a big question. We’re trying things with the sails with All Purpose, we’ve changed the sail plan to optimize the overlap between each sail and the way I change my sails. I don’t have a J1 anymore and my J2 is much bigger than anyone else’s. So now it’s working out what sail is on the bowsprit, and the sail design shape will be changing but that will come as we get more used to sailing with our new foils and making them work to best effect for the Vendee. You have to decide which eight to take because when we are foiling we go faster and our apparent wind angles are tighter and tighter, so for example there’s a big question do we take a spinnaker or not? Right now we’re still running a spinnaker, in the Bermudes 1000 Race there were foiling boats that didn’t have spinnakers. If you have a spinnaker it limits your other sail choices, if you don’t have one then you need a gennaker instead in terms of surface area. And of course you want to minimise sail changes because now they cost a lot of time and distance because we’re going so fast, so we don’t want to do to change too often.

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3 hours ago, LeoV said:

Sam Davies in latest Tip&Shaft;
And how is the sail programme changing as the boats go faster and faster?
The sail programme we’re working on a new sail with All Purpose Sails, it’s interesting because  the flexibility you need offshore when foiling in transitional moments when you have everything in the water and then with the foil taking off, then we’re at high speeds. We are limited to eight sails in the Vendee Globe so it’s a big question. We’re trying things with the sails with All Purpose, we’ve changed the sail plan to optimize the overlap between each sail and the way I change my sails. I don’t have a J1 anymore and my J2 is much bigger than anyone else’s. So now it’s working out what sail is on the bowsprit, and the sail design shape will be changing but that will come as we get more used to sailing with our new foils and making them work to best effect for the Vendee. You have to decide which eight to take because when we are foiling we go faster and our apparent wind angles are tighter and tighter, so for example there’s a big question do we take a spinnaker or not? Right now we’re still running a spinnaker, in the Bermudes 1000 Race there were foiling boats that didn’t have spinnakers. If you have a spinnaker it limits your other sail choices, if you don’t have one then you need a gennaker instead in terms of surface area. And of course you want to minimise sail changes because now they cost a lot of time and distance because we’re going so fast, so we don’t want to do to change too often.

Interesting.  These boats speeds are getting them closer and closer to the sort of sail plan that a maxi multihull might run.  I would think a gennaker would be a better option than a spin.

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Minitransats left spi's at home decades ago :)

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The risk is always that you find yourself in extreme light air during the two times you're crossing the equator. 

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Is it me or those foils look to have less chord than those of the other foilers?

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