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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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oioi

New imoca boats

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Photo n°38 shows the boat going bow down if that's what you want to see ;)

Now this is starting to look like a bit less seahugger. I don't know what the autopilot will be able to make of it..

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Respect for the photographer Martinez, hanging out a heli and taking shots like this.

He took all angles, I like the 42 pic.

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For L or T rudders it seems the kick up system would need a substantial rework not to mention the loading the blade would get when being pulled up or down.

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I wonder at what weight and wind speed they start to fly, so many new questions for the autopilot and battery charging and management

These are not "flying" but more a "righting moment" style foil, albeit still some air created.

 

Like rudders, two or a windward and leeward carbon hydro leg is now the norm however the problem of hitting debri's and the odd large fish wanting to chew down on the spinning prop still remains. They carry a lot hydro spares and carbon repair materials because of this.

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Can't wait to see the video to see how long they are lifting for? And yes did someone say Auto Pilot.? LOL. Can you imagine going to sleep and waking up to find you did 240 miles at 30 degrees off course? No I suspect the Auto Pilots will be ok, have seen power boats that continually round up in big following seas and the AP continually trying to correct the course. That said the foiling may make the boat a lot more comfortable in these sort of sea states? :ph34r:

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Are the two sections overlapped at the chine / join?

No...essentially a glued butt joint and tape reinforced inside and out.

Ok cool, thanks for the answer.

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So where's the log impeller...?

build it into the bulb ? :)
That is where it was on the Puma VO70, so makes sense.

IIRC, wasn't that a sooper-dooper 2D ultrasonic sensor that also measured leeway?

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The moments where she goes bow down and the foils just keep her there are amazing (2:25). Not fast, I can't think, but amazing in terms of the power the foils have.

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I just made a mess in my shorts....that bulbous bow is working hard keeping the snout up the times they bear off down a wave. A wet way to go around the planet. Thanks Ed for the heads up... I take back all the nasty things I've said about you :-)

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Holy Shit Batman!!!!

 

Those foils seem to do a lot more than just the flat DSS ones.

What odds WOXI sprouts some soon? she has everything else...l

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Holy moly. How long before one of those foils breaks off? What amazing engineering. We live in marvelous time to see this happening.

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That is the big question, and of course how much emphasis each skipper has put on performance vs. (some form of) degraded operation. As per my recollection of the foiling week talk while all things are secret there are quite some differences.

 

Should get very interesting indeed. (I still wonder if someone will do a quick chop job and switch to Q23 style foils.)

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Shared that vid on FB with all my sailing friends. Amazing. So does anyone know if they took weight off the bulb since there is more RM with the foils? Do the boats still have to do the inversion test? If so I am guessing the foils need to come in. Or one does anyway. If a foil were to break can the boat survive/sail?

 

I love the part where the keel ventilates all the way to the bulb, at about 1:30.

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I think there'd be a market for joyrides on these things. It's early days a bit like the 1st gen AC cats when TNZ showed their first foiling footage. I'm tipping they are going to get these things skimming across the water when their on. The footage of the bow trying to submarine towards the end suggests there is room for improvement imo.

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Can they replace a foil at sea I wonder.

 

Sounds like a terrifying thought in the southern ocean on your own.

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So where's the log impeller...?

build it into the bulb ? :)
That is where it was on the Puma VO70, so makes sense.

IIRC, wasn't that a sooper-dooper 2D ultrasonic sensor that also measured leeway?

 

I believe so

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I wonder if the new foils will actually make it to the next Vendee race. So far they seem to be quick when there is a lot of wind. No doubt they'll be very fast in the Southern Ocean, but will the gains there be enough for the legs up and down the Atlantic when I expect the boats with conventional foils, to be quicker.

 

Granted the Fastnet had a lot of light wind conditions, but it did show that the new boats suffer in non-foiling conditions, which I expect will be the case for much of the Atlantic.

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So where's the log impeller...?

build it into the bulb ? :)
That is where it was on the Puma VO70, so makes sense.
IIRC, wasn't that a sooper-dooper 2D ultrasonic sensor that also measured leeway?

I believe so
The ultrasonic sensor was in the hull, but they still had an impeller in the bulb. It stopped working after SCA bought the boat at which point they discovered the downside! ;)

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I wonder if the new foils will actually make it to the next Vendee race. So far they seem to be quick when there is a lot of wind. No doubt they'll be very fast in the Southern Ocean, but will the gains there be enough for the legs up and down the Atlantic when I expect the boats with conventional foils, to be quicker.

 

Granted the Fastnet had a lot of light wind conditions, but it did show that the new boats suffer in non-foiling conditions, which I expect will be the case for much of the Atlantic.

Supposedly they were astonishingly quick in certain wind angles, but struggling outside of those very specific angles. I guess the work that needs to be done is to widen the working angle with as little reduction in performance as possible. Oh, and develop a pilot that can cope.

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I wonder if the new foils will actually make it to the next Vendee race. So far they seem to be quick when there is a lot of wind. No doubt they'll be very fast in the Southern Ocean, but will the gains there be enough for the legs up and down the Atlantic when I expect the boats with conventional foils, to be quicker.

 

Granted the Fastnet had a lot of light wind conditions, but it did show that the new boats suffer in non-foiling conditions, which I expect will be the case for much of the Atlantic.

The estimate is the new 60's will get around the Vendee track a couple of days quicker. How much of that extra speed is due soley to the new foils has not been disclosed.

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Fark that is belting along! Reckon I saw the whole keel ventilate a couple of times. Very active helming, reminded me of a planing dinghy working the waves. Wonder what it will look like in race mode rather than promo mode

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The sensor wasn't in the hull it was on the underside of the bulb, there wasn't an impeller in the bulb on PUMA, that was Groupama

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Can they replace a foil at sea I wonder.

 

Sounds like a terrifying thought in the southern ocean on your own.

Tiny Dame Ellen had to tack one of her boards all the way up the Atlantic in her 2nd place Vendee effort. I wouldn't underestimate the strength, determination, and ingenuity of this breed of sailor.

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Can they replace a foil at sea I wonder.

 

Sounds like a terrifying thought in the southern ocean on your own.

Tiny Dame Ellen had to tack one of her boards all the way up the Atlantic in her 2nd place Vendee effort. I wouldn't underestimate the strength, determination, and ingenuity of this breed of sailor.

 

+1

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Can they replace a foil at sea I wonder.

 

Sounds like a terrifying thought in the southern ocean on your own.

Tiny Dame Ellen had to tack one of her boards all the way up the Atlantic in her 2nd place Vendee effort. I wouldn't underestimate the strength, determination, and ingenuity of this breed of sailor.

 

 

Except that these were going out of the case upwards, while, as per Dtm post, Safran/BP/Gitana/Virbac new foils most probably can only go out downwards.

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Also, IIRC Kingfisher's foils could be end-for-ended. Which these can't.

 

I doubt very much that they'll carry 2 spares on the Vendee. I think that if one breaks, they're done.

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Is it already happening, or is there a reason this concept couldn't be applied to a Mini?

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starting to think SMA (Macif) has a pretty good chance in the next Vendee. has the legs on all the new boats from the last race and may well be the one to back. wonder if we will see anyone swapping back to more conventional boards on the new boats. they would have to decide very soon. HB is launching pretty late and they may be in for a shock.

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Is there any information around on the new Hugo Boss? Am I right in thinking it's in build at Green Marine - Is it close to launching? Theres not much on the Alex Thomson website. Is he joining this particular gun(foil)fight?

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starting to think SMA (Macif) has a pretty good chance in the next Vendee. has the legs on all the new boats from the last race and may well be the one to back. wonder if we will see anyone swapping back to more conventional boards on the new boats. they would have to decide very soon. HB is launching pretty late and they may be in for a shock.

 

Transat Jacques Vabre will tell a bit more, with different wind angles.

 

And then they'll still have plenty of time to revert to conventional foils or others to move on to new foils

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starting to think SMA (Macif) has a pretty good chance in the next Vendee. has the legs on all the new boats from the last race and may well be the one to back. wonder if we will see anyone swapping back to more conventional boards on the new boats. they would have to decide very soon. HB is launching pretty late and they may be in for a shock.

 

I don't think that told us much at all. A drifter Fastnet is very unlike an around the world race, and they still have a year to sort out an innovation that has only been in the water for a few months at most.

 

The thing Macif was particularly good at (and setting a new 24 hour solo monohull record) seems like what the new boats would be even better at.

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Also, IIRC Kingfisher's foils could be end-for-ended. Which these can't.

 

I doubt very much that they'll carry 2 spares on the Vendee. I think that if one breaks, they're done.

Far too risky to a successful finish surely, Ed. It'd be like setting out without replacement rudder blades.

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These boats have been out sailing for barely a month and already people are prophesying their doom. I'd imagine with how much they have invested in these configurations, there's going to be a lot of optimization work that gets done.

 

I can't imagine it would be a remotely easy thing pack it in and retrofit vertical daggerboards, you'd have to change a lot of the structures.

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Minis are limited by the width of their box rule, in which nothing (including foils) is allowed outside of it.

 

However, scuttlebutt is that they will amend the rule after the upcoming TransAt to allow foils outside of the box, to encourage testing like the IMOCAs are doing.

 

HW

 

Is it already happening, or is there a reason this concept couldn't be applied to a Mini?

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The video is the most graphic representation of how these boats no longer sail in the direction of their centreline - rather they sail in the direction as determined from the bow to the leeward rear corner - on their diagonal waterplanes.

 

Gives more lift from the keel strut - but must be another headache for the Autopilot to deal with - which will now need to run some pretty fancy algorithms to keep up. A some one wrote - active helming with input on or before the crest of the wave to keep it firing in a straight(ish) line.

 

The issues I see emerging are:

- Helm protection & visibility needs serious work - day sail fine but 70+ days = Issue

- Hydro generator - needs to have some serious engineering to cope with a month in southern ocean doing that.

- All boats are going to want the Mich Desj / Gabert staysail in their armoury - allowing high speed deep reaching doing some very dynamic steering angles.

 

Wonder whether they will take two sets of rudders with them? - one normal set for the atlantic legs and another set with trim elevators to deploy in the southern ocean leg which would allow better longitudinal control.

 

I doubt that they would take spare main foils - too heavy a parasitic weight - would need to take two - they are carbon - but still fuqing heavy - and the insertion is from outside in - so too difficult too achieve solo. I would expect each and every boat to have diamond blade cordless grinders to trim any damaged bits though....... Attrition will be high.

 

I believe the new Hugo Boss is very invested in this style of boat - which will suit Alex's Banzai downwind antics.

 

Lots of optimisation will improve these boats in their non favoured light wind zones. I would expect them to fully powered up by 8-10 knots and the boatspeed gains at the upper range will enable them to horizon the older boats when it is nuking.

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Superiority of these new generation boats is certainly not a forgone conclusion. Rule changes incl those to righting moment and material use since the last Vendee are designed to reduce obsolescence. For instance the power to weight ratio between old and new boats is more or less the same.

 

Over the years IMOCA design development has been one more one of increments than huge change. As you can see by pics below the most significant change has been to rigs, which are now standardised. Rules have also meant displacement has been allowed to drop but now levelled out at around 7,600kg, on account of such things as a bulb limit of 3,100kg.

 

Optimising weight but at the same time catering for the increased pressures and loads associated with higher speeds in a RtW race is one of delicate design balance and high construction skills. There is nothing to be gained by an 0.10k increase in average boat speed if it can't finish in one piece.

 

If the additional speed of these moustache looking foils is compelling you would have to think that is countered by the concern of keeping them in one piece. That said, for some time canting keels have been travelling quickly around the planet while hanging out to weather, without too much trouble.

 

However if deploying these foils makes the ride less brutal and therefore faster over extended periods time, then that alone may make them indispensable and maybe make the rest of the fleet suddenly obsolete overnight. That would be ironical as their contribution to righting moment has been encouraged by the very rules put in place to keep the older boats competitive.

 

1996 PRB - 9,500kg 2008 Foncia - 8,500kg 2012 Banque Populaire (now Maître Coq) - 7,800 kg

 

2012 Macif (now SMA) - 7,700kg 2016 Safran, Banque Populaire, Gitanna16 and Hugo Boss - approx 7,600kg.

post-108919-0-95085800-1440815610_thumb.jpg

post-108919-0-32296600-1440815653_thumb.jpg

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They have been talking about for a couple of years now allowing foils in the Mini Class (I recall someone even built one??) and also allowing wings sails.

 

I think the delay is concern about costs getting out of control which is pretty valid for a Class offering up a cheap platform and that being one of its strengths, particularly for doing big events like next months Mini Transat.

 

That said I think you still have to sell a kidney to afford doing even a Mini Transat.

 

 

 

Minis are limited by the width of their box rule, in which nothing (including foils) is allowed outside of it.

 

However, scuttlebutt is that they will amend the rule after the upcoming TransAt to allow foils outside of the box, to encourage testing like the IMOCAs are doing.

 

HW

 

Is it already happening, or is there a reason this concept couldn't be applied to a Mini?

 

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There was a DSS Mini built a few years ago. I don't know if it was ever raced, but it got around the box rule by having a narrow hull. The beam of the boat plus length of the foil at maximum extension fitted into the maximum allowed.

 

There are photos up on the DSS website.

 

P1020898.jpg

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Power to weight ratios, although "standardised" by the one design mast and bulb, dont account for the "dynamic" power of righting moment induced by speed surely.

measurements taken when static at a dock, such as a pull down test dont account for the (purportedly) 10 tonnes of righting moment from the foil when the vessel starts to power up at 18 knots.
(that figure from memory was the Oats DSS foil)

 

So whilst you are right that power to weight differences might be approaching commonality between the old and new fleets, that is only true of the boat when static, not when things become "dynamic"

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starting to think SMA (Macif) has a pretty good chance in the next Vendee. has the legs on all the new boats from the last race and may well be the one to back. wonder if we will see anyone swapping back to more conventional boards on the new boats. they would have to decide very soon. HB is launching pretty late and they may be in for a shock.

Any bets on him breaking this one as well?

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Cokpit is more widely open and flat than others new imoca (seb josse say its volvo inspirationnal to move quickly sails bag ).

seems main hardware deck (grinding machine) and various control are completely cover by top roof ( better than on other imoca).

but difference is helm's man position that is not well protected at all, as the others are completely dry.

Curious bet from s.josse, for a 70 days race, I can't imagine they will not add protection for the helm's man. But it seems quite difficult as its not genuily included.

Helming two hours a day in this configuation, should be a torture.

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Impressive!!! Hard to mantain that degree of concentration to drive the boat through the southern ocean alone in those conditions. At 2.46 is the keel flexing o refraction of the water?

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.........So whilst you are right that power to weight differences might be approaching commonality between the old and new fleets, that is only true of the boat when static, not when things become "dynamic"

I agree 100% exanzio, hense my closing paragraph which says;

 

"That would be ironical as their (foils) contribution to righting moment has been encouraged by the very rules put in place to keep the older boats competitive".

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From what I've been told, non-obsolescance of the last generation was their reasoning for not allowing scow bows. Not my favorite decision especially after watching the above video. The lifting foils would have been developed anyway IMO. IMOCA did however force these new VPLP boats to put all their eggs in one basket with the limited foil number, which will be fun to watch play out.

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Cokpit is more widely open and flat than others new imoca (seb josse say its volvo inspirationnal to move quickly sails bag ).

seems main hardware deck (grinding machine) and various control are completely cover by top roof ( better than on other imoca).

but difference is helm's man position that is not well protected at all, as the others are completely dry.

Curious bet from s.josse, for a 70 days race, I can't imagine they will not add protection for the helm's man. But it seems quite difficult as its not genuily included.

Helming two hours a day in this configuation, should be a torture.

 

oceanwwgg at first glance yes I would agree….but then I am not too sure for these reasons.

 

Firstly this is Sebastien Josse’s third Vendee and it is reported he has furnished input into the design, particularly the comfort and ergonomics aspect. There is also a wealth of experience on the team, such as Tissier and Koch on the technical side and Caudrelier on board for the two handed races.

 

I therefore can’t believe these guys would willingly sacrifice comfort, unless there is a substantial payback. For instance he will be wanting to shift weight aft to get the snout up but has to do so with the area constrains between traveller/rudder bars and working area. It is hard to see in available photos, but while the cockpit top appears low, it is deeper and more protected than it first appears. The aft edge of the cockpit top also appears to be as far aft as practically possible. See pics below.

 

Secondly, while the boat will be doing a lot of races two up (where there is more hand steering), it has been setup with the single handed Vendee in mind where there is very little hand steering. Therefore any additional exposure if any should have minimal impact.

post-108919-0-91423800-1440924541_thumb.jpg

post-108919-0-33244500-1440924581_thumb.jpg

post-108919-0-73017700-1440924605_thumb.jpg

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Cokpit is more widely open and flat than others new imoca (seb josse say its volvo inspirationnal to move quickly sails bag ).

seems main hardware deck (grinding machine) and various control are completely cover by top roof ( better than on other imoca).

but difference is helm's man position that is not well protected at all, as the others are completely dry.

Curious bet from s.josse, for a 70 days race, I can't imagine they will not add protection for the helm's man. But it seems quite difficult as its not genuily included.

Helming two hours a day in this configuation, should be a torture.

 

There is the strong chance that extensions can be fitted to the tillers, so that you can steer from under the roof top as well (don't forget that those tillers are angled)

Why would the roof be that shape and include a front facing wndow otherwise.

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http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/course-regate/seb-josse-chaque-foil-fonctionne-differemment/

 

josse will helm in plain air, opposite choice of le cleach and safran2

 

check foil attitude vid 23' and 1.43 they can add a kind of transparency casquette or cap for the head of the helms man

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jsparrow / moody frog

don't think gitana16 cockpit permit helming under the actual roof (window are only there for view control, there is no double angle tyler).

Funny thing safran2, banque pop8 have all experienced skipper also, but with opposite design philosophy, at least for helman protection.

(during weather transition period or with full sail)

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@jacksparrow,@moodyF ur arguments are highly valuable, u right they make (gitana team) this ergonomy choice as a compromise.

by the way I would add some kg of carbon around josse helming spot to protect him from water flush.

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Totally different bow at least the topsides are. Where the hexagon pattern is it seems to cut back, like a bigger version of the Puma vor70 in the last VOR

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Totally different

Can't see where the foils exit. A lemon or a weapon !!!

Any guesses on the rig ?

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