estarzinger

Paris (Kiwi Spirit) calls it quits

Recommended Posts

Again? The Farr boat wasn't good enough for him. I need to introduce him to El Jefe and his Baba 40. Now there's a man and there's a boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice artistic rendering - but they forgot the multi colored rats nest gordian knot that will live aft of those 11 massed jammers each side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow what a beauty 😲. I saved every picture of it.

 

Its quite light. 18 m, 10tonne

 

Interesting how the companionway resembles Beneteau Sense. Also asymmetric like Bente 24. The rooftop looks very modern. Even futuricstic...it attracts me

 

C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved Images_detail_20cockpit(1).jpg

If you want break the age record, you want lightness IMHO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice artistic rendering - but they forgot the multi colored rats nest gordian knot that will live aft of those 11 massed jammers each side.

I'm intrigued to know what a single hander is going to do with 11 lines per side. Unless a few of them are double tailed, like vang and cunno?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice artistic rendering - but they forgot the multi colored rats nest gordian knot that will live aft of those 11 massed jammers each side.

There are windows below to put lines through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Wow what a beauty 😲. I saved every picture of it.

 

Its quite light. 18 m, 10tonne

 

Interesting how the companionway resembles Beneteau Sense. Also asymmetric like Bente 24. The rooftop looks very modern. Even futuricstic...it attracts me

 

C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved Images_detail_20cockpit(1).jpg

If you want break the age record, you want lightness IMHO.

Thats the rule. Like everything else

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An equestrian friend of mine described Christopher Reeves, when he had his bad horse-riding accident, as having been "over-horsed". In other words, he could afford to buy a more powerful and challenging horse than he had the skill to handle.

 

It sounded as if our Paris pal was over-boated last time.

 

This one also looks a big powerful boat, electrical winches or no. Seems an odd choice to me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, it's another monster! It has a GARAGE!

 

Did the FARR sell?

 

Best wishes to him, but if he was my dad, id tell him to stop spending my inheritance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, it's another monster! It has a GARAGE!

 

Did the FARR sell?

 

Best wishes to him, but if he was my dad, id tell him to stop spending my inheritance.

Dont you want inherit the boat? Id live aboard on such boat until death:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This boat seems quite similar to the last one, which was obviously a poor choice and poorly set up for Dr. Parrish's skills and goals. Hopefully some thought goes into what he is going to do should all of his motorized help fail. I think a smaller boat with substantial my simpler systems and as many manual backups as possible would serve him better.

 

But hey, at least another sailboat is being built. Always cause for celebration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Yep, it's another monster! It has a GARAGE!

 

Did the FARR sell?

 

Best wishes to him, but if he was my dad, id tell him to stop spending my inheritance.

Dont you want inherit the boat? Id live aboard on such boat until death:)

If he leaves enough cash behind to run it I'd be ok - but if he chews up my inheritance building TWO huge brand new boats for a record attempt - then yes, I'd be pissed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Nice artistic rendering - but they forgot the multi colored rats nest gordian knot that will live aft of those 11 massed jammers each side.

There are windows below to put lines through.

 

The drawing are not definitive, but it looks like there is a small bin under the cockpit seat. A window below would be perfect - the giant knot could be stuck inside where yoiu can't reach it! And let a lot of water in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Nice artistic rendering - but they forgot the multi colored rats nest gordian knot that will live aft of those 11 massed jammers each side.

There are windows below to put lines through.

Good forbid you have to leave the cockpit and actually do some sail handling. That's so plebeian.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's the shore crews job! It's thier fault if the right sails are not on the furlers & hoisted ready to deploy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder how far he will get this time before he breaks something and abandons the attempt. So far no word about doing it "green" like the last time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robin Knox-Johnstone placed in the Route du Rhum at age 75. Remarkable man.

 

Sailing%20Yacht%20GREY%20POWER_02.jpg

Not to denigrate Mr. Knox Johnston's achievement, since anyone who races single-handed around the world has achieved something remarkable, but Knox-Johnston was not exactly competitive in comparison to the fastest boat. He placed more as a result of the attrition of other competitors who were closer to the required pace until boat breakage. Sir Robin did not push himself nor the boat as hard and in the end was quite disappointed by his lack of competitiveness. Bravo nonetheless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Robin Knox-Johnstone placed in the Route du Rhum at age 75. Remarkable man.

 

Sailing%20Yacht%20GREY%20POWER_02.jpg

Not to denigrate Mr. Knox Johnston's achievement, since anyone who races single-handed around the world has achieved something remarkable, but Knox-Johnston was not exactly competitive in comparison to the fastest boat. He placed more as a result of the attrition of other competitors who were closer to the required pace until boat breakage. Sir Robin did not push himself nor the boat as hard and in the end was quite disappointed by his lack of competitiveness. Bravo nonetheless.
True, but he's probably twice the age of the other competitors and it's not like the Open 60 bears any resemblence to a 30' teak ketch...steep learning curve! And he DID finish, whereas most did not. Gotta hand it to the guy <applause>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RKJ had loads of experience sailing high performance racers. His relative lack of competitiveness was mostly about the lateness of his decision to compete and therefore the boat and many of its systems not being even remotely race-ready when the gun went.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like that has always been his idiom. Not really the desired boat, not really ready, have to do a bunch of unlikely shit along the way to keep going, utterly nonplussed about the difficulty, kicks ass, very humble about the achievement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely. And none of my blather, above, should be seen as criticism of the man. He is an extraordinary individual who has achieved extraordinary things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the boat is actually 10 tonnes, that's lighter than a baba 40. OK with more draft and width, it is probably more powerful but might not be that hard to sail.

 

If I were to do the same thing, I would probably choose a smaller boat but I don't believe that this one is fundamentally inadequate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Paris needs to take a close look at why Jessica Watson completed her goal, and Abby Sunderland failed. Spending all the money in the world is no guarantee of success. Picking a boat suitible to your physical strength and skill level also isn't a guarantee, but it's a big head start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jessica did have a more manageable boat & it also had an extremely thorough refit organised & managed by Don McIntyre & bunch of other people. Such a shame to see it perish at the museum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jessica did have a more manageable boat & it also had an extremely thorough refit organised & managed by Don McIntyre & bunch of other people. Such a shame to see it perish at the museum.

 

reminds me of Joshua beeing hijacked for a Transat race in 2000 (?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to Yachtworld Paris has found a buyer . . . . . . . price not disclosed. He would have still dropped plenty on the project which overall must owe him at least $4 million. To all those who left their bids too late - fear not, for there is a second hull now for sale. Says the broker with a gush and a flourish " The great success we had with hull #1, will intrigue and impress the most critical of yachtsmen. "

 

So come on you guys, open the wallets and have at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rumor has it Kiwi Spirit was donated to a non profit in South Coast of MA. They would probably have to keep it a minimum time before selling it for funds.

When that happens it may go cheaper than one would think. Plus if you sell all the crap that it has onboard you can recoup some more.

 

IMG 20160922 141626887

IMG 20160922 141552922

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

" The great success we had with hull #1, will intrigue and impress the most critical of yachtsmen. "

 

Salesmen. You gotta love 'em.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess Kiwi Spirit didn't make a grand family cruiser after all, as the original plan stated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahhh a non profit ? That explains all. It did seem that he found a buyer a little too easily. Regular buyers for that type of boat are sooooo thin on the ground. Most buyers who can afford the $2m or so want their luxuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The IRS have gotten wise to rich people giving their dumb ideas away. If relevant the eventual sale price is used for tax deduction purposes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Strange. Having seen the boat in person, it's actually quite nice. Very powerful, very well appointed and we'll set up for short handed cruising - price aside that is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The IRS have gotten wise to rich people giving their dumb ideas away. If relevant the eventual sale price is used for tax deduction purposes.

If the boat is kept by the foundation for three yrs or more, or actively used in a program, there is no connection between donation value & final sale price. Any foundation that's been around a while will make damn sure the donor is fully protected. The boat can also be let out on a 'lease with intent to buy' immediately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Yep, it's another monster! It has a GARAGE!

 

Did the FARR sell?

 

Best wishes to him, but if he was my dad, id tell him to stop spending my inheritance.

Dont you want inherit the boat? Id live aboard on such boat until death:)

If he leaves enough cash behind to run it I'd be ok - but if he chews up my inheritance building TWO huge brand new boats for a record attempt - then yes, I'd be pissed.

 

 

Well, as a friend of mine recently pointed out..."if you don't fly business class, your children will" might as well enjoy some of the fruits of your labor, before you cannot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He should have chartered a class 40 for the trip & kept the old boat for pleasure / after.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

His blurb page at http://www.stanleyparis.com/the-story-thus-far is encouraging, because it does include a reasonbly realistic assessment of his errors first time round:

 

I have made many mistakes in these past few years and I take full responsibility for them. I blame no one but myself for what went wrong for I chose the architect, builder and equipment including sails and fittings and if I did not chose them then I allowed someone else to do it for me. Unfortunately I allowed an entirely unsuitable boat to be built for me. Too physical, too large and too complicated. I have had six big boats (over 44 feet) and this boat was the first that if you visited me and asked to go sailing the next day I might have declined as it took so much work to get ready. If you can’t go for a day sail on short notice then that sounds like a misfit. It was at 64 feet in length and with a bow sprit that slid out for another six feet, possibly the largest boat that anyone has attempted to solo around the world. It even came with all manual winches. Even the young sailors who joined me found grinding up the mainsail too much work. Then there were the reaching struts designed to hold out the genoa. These were unruly and dangerous to use, difficult to fit and were abandoned early in the program. So on the list went.

 

That seems to cover the core of the errors in his first boat.

 

He doesn't mention the folly of his don't-comsume-fossil-fuels-while-underway straitjacket, which made the boat more complicated, deprived him of heat at crucial points, and left him without any power assistance for the big boat's huge loads. But this time round, there is no mention of any "green" (cough cough) goals, so it seems that he has learnt that lesson.

 

His tone is also very different from the last two times. Much less boastful and superlative-laden, much more modest in his targets. This time he sets only one goal: "become the oldest person to ever sail non-stop and solo around the globe". He has dropped the fast and green objectives of his first two attempts.

 

This new humility looks to me like a good omen. It's still a huge challenge for a 80-year-old man, but I wish him well ... and I found it hard to say that of his first two attempts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was at 64 feet in length and with a bow sprit that slid out for another six feet, possibly the largest boat that anyone has attempted to solo around the world.

 

 

I wish him well too, but perhaps even the slightest knowledge of sailing history might help him a little. A bit less open loop on the feedback too. If you are having that much trouble on a daysail it might be a good time for retrospection on your non-stop RTW try. Maybe a conversation with Webb Chiles would do him some good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We will shortly see if he has actually learned from his mistakes - if he is on board on a whole Atlantic delivery (and then lives with and for the boat) he has. But if he still thinks he can holiday in France while 'his team preps and delivers the boat' and he just steps on board - then he has not.

 

Some of you going on about smaller boats - are missing the (his) point - he wanted to beat 150 days (and he still does but it is tuned down a little). He wanted to beat dodge morgan, who was a consummate seaman in a powerful 60'er. He is simply not going to do that in a Baba 40. It is possible in an open 40 - but the prevailing wisdom is that it is more feasible (with an older crew with less energy) in bigger. But he needs to spend more time on the boat - become a better seaman.

 

The previous boat was in fact quite 'nice' . . . the issue with selling it (other than price as always) was that there were unanswered questions about its construction/engineer quality. . . .questions that were hard to answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It was at 64 feet in length and with a bow sprit that slid out for another six feet, possibly the largest boat that anyone has attempted to solo around the world.

 

 

I wish him well too, but perhaps even the slightest knowledge of sailing history might help him a little. A bit less open loop on the feedback too. If you are having that much trouble on a daysail it might be a good time for retrospection on your non-stop RTW try. Maybe a conversation with Webb Chiles would do him some good.

 

 

I have seen no sign in any of his writings or publicity that Paris does introspection at all. He comes across as a man of action, not reflection.

 

The fact that he has again delegated the decision-making would be ominous in most cases, but it is probably the right call here. The only way this man stands a chance is by someone else setting him up with a boat more like what he needs, rather than what he wants.

 

I still doubt that even a detuned, shrunken Open 60 is a good choice for an 80yo. Too fast, too much violent motion, too much load, too much happening too quickly. But at least this boat is likely to be a bit more durable and a bit more manageable.

 

Even so, I still doubt this is going to work. The risk is that this setup may be enough to get Paris and boat into the Southern Ocean before things go badly wrong, but not enough to get him and boat out of there together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^ well . . it is his dream and money . . . given him credit for that.

 

At 80 it is just simply a tough objective . . . but that is sort of the point . . . he likes tough goals.

 

But he needs to spend a shitload of time at sea on the new boat. . . .before he sets off. He should do what ralph and debbra did and sail across the Atlantic three times back to back (with just turn around time to provision and inspect stuff) to shake it down and get comfortable.

 

The race to bermuda is just a 'lunch cruise' for RTW folks - I think he still does not really understand that (but will be quite glad if he proves me wrong)..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But he needs to spend a shitload of time at sea on the new boat. . . .before he sets off. He should do what ralph and debbra did and sail across the Atlantic three times back to back (with just turn around time to provision and inspect stuff) to shake it down and get comfortable.

 

The race to bermuda is just a 'lunch cruise' for RTW folks - I think he still does not really understand that (but will be quite glad if he proves me wrong)..

^^ this.

 

The boat was built in Germany, so he is perfectly placed to do three transats which end up back in the US. Whether he does that is a key test of whether he is serious about completing this RTW trip, or content to once again bail out part way blaming the boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

It was at 64 feet in length and with a bow sprit that slid out for another six feet, possibly the largest boat that anyone has attempted to solo around the world.

 

 

I wish him well too, but perhaps even the slightest knowledge of sailing history might help him a little. A bit less open loop on the feedback too. If you are having that much trouble on a daysail it might be a good time for retrospection on your non-stop RTW try. Maybe a conversation with Webb Chiles would do him some good.

 

 

I have seen no sign in any of his writings or publicity that Paris does introspection at all. He comes across as a man of action, not reflection.

 

The fact that he has again delegated the decision-making would be ominous in most cases, but it is probably the right call here. The only way this man stands a chance is by someone else setting him up with a boat more like what he needs, rather than what he wants.

 

I still doubt that even a detuned, shrunken Open 60 is a good choice for an 80yo. Too fast, too much violent motion, too much load, too much happening too quickly. But at least this boat is likely to be a bit more durable and a bit more manageable.

 

Even so, I still doubt this is going to work. The risk is that this setup may be enough to get Paris and boat into the Southern Ocean before things go badly wrong, but not enough to get him and boat out of there together.

 

 

Yes, open 60s style boats are powerful. IMHO a long, light and narrower boat might be better.

 

One of VDH boats, Adrien was designed to go against the wind but somethig similar and a bit lighter.

 

vdh-3-semaine-12.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure what value a drop keel has on a RTW try. Let me rephrase that: I am quite sure a drop keep is just a cluster fuck waiting to happen on a RTW try.

 

He seems to absolutely need the publicity to make it worthwhile to him. Contrast with Webb Chiles, who quietly gets the job done at nearly the same age, in far less comfort, just for the hell of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now in the English Channel near Wight:

IMG_0376.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, no one can call him  quitter.  And he's 80. Maybe a man's reach really should exceed his grasp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stupid design #2. Too big. Too heavy with all that interior (even if it's a carbon boat). Should design it as light as possible for offshore sailing (so keel/RM/loads are a low as possible). When circumnav is done, then add frou-frou interior. I agree with a light and lean 40' 'er. Easy to drive, reasonably fast so it doesn't take forever, more comfortable motion. Open 40 would be a far more brutal ride. Baba 40 gets you there but takes forever. If you're 80, the duration of the voyage has to count for more than if you're 40 or 50.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Baba 40 gets you there but takes forever. If you're 80, the duration of the voyage has to count for more than if you're 40 or 50.

Ironically, if he would have picked a Baba 40 in the first place he would have been finished years ago.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Stupid design #2. Too big. Too heavy with all that interior (even if it's a carbon boat). Should design it as light as possible for offshore sailing (so keel/RM/loads are a low as possible). When circumnav is done, then add frou-frou interior. I agree with a light and lean 40' 'er. Easy to drive, reasonably fast so it doesn't take forever, more comfortable motion. Open 40 would be a far more brutal ride. Baba 40 gets you there but takes forever. If you're 80, the duration of the voyage has to count for more than if you're 40 or 50.

Adams 13

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=6371

Joe had been round the globe once, designed this boat for himself...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, slap said:

Ironically, if he would have picked a Baba 40 in the first place he would have been finished years ago.

yeah, well, he's clearly got more money than sense

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For this gentleman, it appears to be not about doing it, but about having as many people watch him do it as he can get. Hence the fancy boat. But for social media, I doubt he would be doing this at all. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/23/2016 at 9:03 PM, longy said:

If the boat is kept by the foundation for three yrs or more, or actively used in a program, there is no connection between donation value & final sale price. Any foundation that's been around a while will make damn sure the donor is fully protected. The boat can also be let out on a 'lease with intent to buy' immediately.

Bingo.  http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2012/Lyman-Morse-Farr-63-Racer-Cruiser-2861203/MA/United-States#.Whb1HZOGNE4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/02/2014 at 6:05 AM, estarzinger said:

If you look at Paris's history . . . he does in fact know that one often fails at something hard before he succeeds . . <snip>

Personally I think the first key question for him is whether he was having any fun at all. <snip>

If he answers that in the affirmative (yes, I really do want to try again), then he needs to ask the designer, builder and riggers how they can idiot proof the boat (something they should in fact have done the first time around). That's no criticism of Paris, just a simple acknowledgement <snip> that he is not super skilled nor super experienced, and is older than the average and needs boat systems that simply accept and deal with that.

<snip>

He haz not lernd mutsh, if ennything - https://www.stanleyparis.com/single-post/2017/11/30/Postponement-Decided-Upon-–-Try-Again-Next-Year

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/11/2015 at 2:08 AM, Spin Echo said:

I guess there will be no third attempt.

<snip>

ummm....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 08/08/2016 at 8:07 PM, Simon75 said:

 

reminds me of Joshua beeing hijacked for a Transat race in 2000 (?)

Parfaitement.

Jeudi 19 octobre 2000 

Le skipper Jacques Peignon a été condamné à un mois de prison avec sursis et 80.000 F d'amende.

Il avait "emprunté" sans autorisation le Joshua, un bateau appartenant au musée maritime de La Rochelle, pour participer à la transat anglaise.

Le Joshua, construit en 1952, est classé monument historique. Jacques Peignon n'avait pas le droit de l'utiliser. Mais ce bateau lui a permis de se qualifier pour le Vendée Globe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hmmm . . . . what can we surmise now:

1. Paris certainly has some tenacity (aka stubbornness)  but that also seems to be hindering him from learning from his experiences.  He still does not get his root problem.

2. I am not sure why his project manager/owners rep is not fired at this point.

3. yea, the reliability and quality of boat systems is generally/often crap when you take them offshore.  It is pretty often impossible to fix that with dock/yard time - you need sea time, lots of it, and incremental improvement thru that sea time.

4. the boating industry overall is taking this guy for an expensive ride.

5. Paris is fixated on making acknowledged records, rather than "living the journey" - each to his own, if that is what motivates him so be it, but imho the records he is going for are like 'the fastest one-legged dwarf' 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He seems to have no real understanding of how his boats work - beyond "push this button and that happens"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

but while I am somewhat mechanical, electronics are just a black box to me

On 11/28/2014 at 10:36 PM, DDW said:

Maybe with that self knowledge setting out around the world in a boat filled with, and dependent on, electronics was less than completely wise?

2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

hmmm . . . . what can we surmise now:

4. the boating industry overall is taking this guy for an expensive ride.

That's the trickle down theory at work. 

I wonder what the most complex boat to have completed a non-stop solo RTW is? Did it have 4 hydro generators, two freezers, etc? He wants to do a 150 day sail on a boat that has about 15 days MTBF. While acknowledging complete ignorance on how to fix anything. At the same time shouting for attention on social media. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, soak_ed said:

Paris' problem is simple.  He is a legend in his own mind.

Yeah, which is hinted at by him always calling himself Doctor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, longy said:

He seems to have no real understanding of how his boats work - beyond "push this button and that happens"

That's not really uncommon. He's a "what" learner.

I can't learn that way. Tell me what to do and I'll forget. Tell me why it works and I'll never forget.

When I started as a flight instructor, I figured everyone was like me. They're not. Most are not, in fact.

I confused the hell out of several before I figured out I was doing more harm than good by including a "why" explanation with every "what to do." To them, the "why's" were additional "what's" to learn and were useless clutter in their minds.

I have a brother who learns like this. I'm astonished at the long, complex lists of "what's" that he can memorize. I could never do it. He's perplexed that I can derive an answer instead of just remembering it. He could never do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

That's not really uncommon. He's a "what" learner.

I can't learn that way. Tell me what to do and I'll forget. Tell me why it works and I'll never forget.

When I started as a flight instructor, I figured everyone was like me. They're not. Most are not, in fact.

I confused the hell out of several before I figured out I was doing more harm than good by including a "why" explanation with every "what to do." To them, the "why's" were additional "what's" to learn and were useless clutter in their minds.

I have a brother who learns like this. I'm astonished at the long, complex lists of "what's" that he can memorize. I could never do it. He's perplexed that I can derive an answer instead of just remembering it. He could never do it.

Yup, just give me the 'tools' for deriving the solution not the entire list of possible solutions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

That's not really uncommon. He's a "what" learner.

I can't learn that way. Tell me what to do and I'll forget. Tell me why it works and I'll never forget.

When I started as a flight instructor, I figured everyone was like me. They're not. Most are not, in fact.

I confused the hell out of several before I figured out I was doing more harm than good by including a "why" explanation with every "what to do." To them, the "why's" were additional "what's" to learn and were useless clutter in their minds.

I have a brother who learns like this. I'm astonished at the long, complex lists of "what's" that he can memorize. I could never do it. He's perplexed that I can derive an answer instead of just remembering it. He could never do it.

Difference between 'conceptual' and 'heuristic' thinking.  Both have their place, and most people operate somewhere between the two poles. Conceptual learners want to understand the basic forces & principles of a system, then figure out how to get from cause A to effect B via manipulating variables. Heuristic thinkers learn rules and algorithms: If A happens, then do task B. They can memorize quite long lists of rules, or diagrams, or names of components. When you need someone to act quickly in an emergency, or under tremendous stress or fatigue, a heuristic thinker can be a godsend.  They don't have to start at F=ma and work their way up to "Flaps down, cut power to engine #2" cuz that's what the manual says to do and that's how they learned it in class. Lots of military officers are brilliant heuristic thinkers. The approach generates reliable, uniform outcomes based on prior real-world experience. Downsides: if a problem ain't on the list, can't derive a novel solution. Tend to hit a skills plateau and stall there -- often because there are no more lists to memorize. May believe great success in one field (like physical medicine) will transfer to another field (like RTW sailing). 

My cousin taught me to sail via a small-but-decent set of rules, which he got from an older guy, who got them from an older guy, etc. Doubt there was a single person in that lineage who understood a thing about fluid dynamics or force vectors. I needed to know why sails generate lift, and why a rudder stalls, and why spar loads are mostly compressive. Some very, very good sailors went all around the world never knowing or caring what made their boat actually go. But they damned well knew how to make it go, far better than I do: "If there's chop in the channel, move your jib cars back. That's what I was taught, and experience confirms."

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Difference between 'conceptual' and 'heuristic' thinking.  Both have their place, and most people operate somewhere between the two poles. Conceptual learners want to understand the basic forces & principles of a system, then figure out how to get from cause A to effect B via manipulating variables. Heuristic thinkers learn rules and algorithms: If A happens, then do task B. They can memorize quite long lists of rules, or diagrams, or names of components. When you need someone to act quickly in an emergency, or under tremendous stress or fatigue, a heuristic thinker can be a godsend.  They don't have to start at F=ma and work their way up to "Flaps down, cut power to engine #2" cuz that's what the manual says to do and that's how they learned it in class. Lots of military officers are brilliant heuristic thinkers. The approach generates reliable, uniform outcomes based on prior real-world experience. Downsides: if a problem ain't on the list, can't derive a novel solution. Tend to hit a skills plateau and stall there -- often because there are no more lists to memorize. May believe great success in one field (like physical medicine) will transfer to another field (like RTW sailing). 

My cousin taught me to sail via a small-but-decent set of rules, which he got from an older guy, who got them from an older guy, etc. Doubt there was a single person in that lineage who understood a thing about fluid dynamics or force vectors. I needed to know why sails generate lift, and why a rudder stalls, and why spar loads are mostly compressive. Some very, very good sailors went all around the world never knowing or caring what made their boat actually go. But they damned well knew how to make it go, far better than I do: "If there's chop in the channel, move your jib cars back. That's what I was taught, and experience confirms."

 

 

Thank you for that - that separation makes sense of many things. I'm definitely on the conceptual end of life, but I have an aunt who flies (or used to). A very confident eccentric outgoing lady, she ended up flying helicopters, recreationally. She was explaining how you fly one, and was telling me how something she called the manifold control was the principal engine throttle control, and I was absolutely baffled when she admitted, with no embarrassment, that she hadn't any idea what it did, beyond making the engine go faster or slower. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps the most telling bit: "One of the two freezers overheats and is inoperable..."

Pretty much says it all. I wish him well and congratulate his zest for life, but this demonstrates a real lack of understanding of what he's trying to do, and what will make him successful. I hope this doesn't end badly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Sparrow50 said:

Perhaps the most telling bit: "One of the two freezers overheats and is inoperable..."

Pretty much says it all. I wish him well and congratulate his zest for life, but this demonstrates a real lack of understanding of what he's trying to do, and what will make him successful. I hope this doesn't end badly.

Clearly he thinks 2 operational freezers are crucial to sailing around the world. SMH. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very few sailors understand the intricacies of sailing physics, and perhaps a minority even the basics. But the knowledge that a bunch of shit on a complex boat is going to break if used continuously in rigorous conditions for 150 days after almost no testing is neither conceptual nor heuristic thinking. He is ignorant of both. You can repair the spare freezer with either conceptual or heuristic thinking - but you are still going to have to repair it, or it will still be broke. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, DDW said:

Very few sailors understand the intricacies of sailing physics, and perhaps a minority even the basics. But the knowledge that a bunch of shit on a complex boat is going to break if used continuously in rigorous conditions for 150 days after almost no testing is neither conceptual nor heuristic thinking. He is ignorant of both. You can repair the spare freezer with either conceptual or heuristic thinking - but you are still going to have to repair it, or it will still be broke. 

His only option would be to eat through the contents of the freezer within two days and hope that it would compensate for not eating for the next four weeks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

His only option would be to eat through the contents of the freezer within two days and hope that it would compensate for not eating for the next four weeks.

I believe that was the original Paleo diet.

Buffalo-Jump-Sign.jpg?resize=600,450

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting discussion about types of thinkers. When I was teaching my wife to drive stick many years ago I started (as an engineer would) with "the clutch separates the engine flywheel's power output from the gearbox...."

She wanted to know "push on that pedal before you shift".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Interesting discussion about types of thinkers. When I was teaching my wife to drive stick many years ago I started (as an engineer would) with "the clutch separates the engine flywheel's power output from the gearbox...."

She wanted to know "push on that pedal before you shift".

Now I have fancy names for them. But, lacking a reason why those names should apply, I'll forget them and go back to my system of naming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I was teaching a group of women to sail, they were hung up on calling fenders 'muffins'. It was easiest to go with the flow...all that was important was they know how to tie them on, and remember to pull them in underway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites