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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Americas Cup

ETNZ announcement

173 posts in this topic

Standby today for the big "team choke"announcement from its HQ in Auckland.

 

Yes Grant, "I'm out/I'm in" Dalton and selected team "choke" members will tell the Kiwi tax payers they have the sponsors on board and are good to go.

 

Yip the same idiots will be running the same asylum and spinning Kiwis a story of how good they will be. Albeit under the guise of.." we don't know the format yet bullshit.

 

But note who is alongside Dalton and who is not...

 

And note Bakers stupid grin and losers persona

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Did they hire AC or Truth or any other of the sockpuppets????

 

Didn't think so.....

 

 

The rants will continue.

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So desperate is the troll for attention that he posted this same post twice. To insinuate that TNZ performed poorly in the last regatta is ridiculous.

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Volvo entry?

I think that is AC's issue. He has never entered a Vulva. Oh 'Volvo'. He has probobly never been in one of those either.

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Funny stuff, well done.

The kiwi's were robbed anyway.

But at least the Aussies won.

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Volvo entry?

I think that is AC's issue. He has never entered a Vulva. Oh 'Volvo'. He has probobly never been in one of those either.
Guess he didn't get invited to that program either.

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Olympic Silver medalists Peter Burling and Blair Tuke join @EmiratesTeamNZ for the next America's Cup campaign

Blokes that come 2nd in big races makes sence haha!

*Aus V Kiwi friendly jibe not troll post* :P

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I don't know much (anything) about Peter Burling and Blair Tuke. Who will they replace on ET?

 

I hate for this thread to continue, so maybe someone could start a new thread for this, please.

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I don't know much (anything) about Peter Burling and Blair Tuke. Who will they replace on ET?

 

I hate for this thread to continue, so maybe someone could start a new thread for this, please.

 

The article says they will do the AC45 campaign and still do the Olympics, ETNZ will have two 45's this time. Maybe this means Burling & Tuke vs Barker & Davies. Winner gets to drive the new cup boat?

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WOW, great thread, could we duplicate it another time ?

 

You're free to leave :)

Can you stop trolling this thread ?

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WOW, great thread, could we duplicate it another time ?

 

You're free to leave :)

Can you stop trolling this thread ?

 

Buzz off.

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The most in-depth piece so far: http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup:-Emirates-Team-NZ-acquires-second-Kiwi-talent-stream/118356

 

Includes this..

--

Dalton also sees the imposition of a nationality rule, combined with the use of home-grown talent, as a good way of controlling costs in future America's Cup campaigns, as the negotiating power of sailors is somewhat reduced by preventing teams from importing top sailing talent.

--

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The most in-depth piece so far: http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup:-Emirates-Team-NZ-acquires-second-Kiwi-talent-stream/118356

 

Includes this..

--

Dalton also sees the imposition of a nationality rule, combined with the use of home-grown talent, as a good way of controlling costs in future America's Cup campaigns, as the negotiating power of sailors is somewhat reduced by preventing teams from importing top sailing talent.

--

 

Dalton is praying for a nationality rule and he's not going to get it. why would larry give up that advantage? he doesn't need that to get money from sponsors oracle is global. dalton thinks local, small time.

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Great news. Two great world class sailors. Whatever the future of the Cup it is fantastic that two young men like this have an opportunity to strut their stuff.

As for posters like Americas Cup. Just go fuck yourself. You must be one of the saddest cunts in the world.

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The most in-depth piece so far: http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup:-Emirates-Team-NZ-acquires-second-Kiwi-talent-stream/118356

 

Includes this..

--

Dalton also sees the imposition of a nationality rule, combined with the use of home-grown talent, as a good way of controlling costs in future America's Cup campaigns, as the negotiating power of sailors is somewhat reduced by preventing teams from importing top sailing talent.

--

Dalton is praying for a nationality rule and he's not going to get it. why would larry give up that advantage? he doesn't need that to get money from sponsors oracle is global. dalton thinks local, small time.

It's the first time I recall nationality being openly given money-saving as a big motivation, despite my suspicion about it. But who knows, maybe it's part of RC's cost-cutting mission too?

 

Sad for the pro's, that's for sure if it gets draconian.

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Someone needs to pat the Koreans on the back they gave both Outeridge and Burling their first shots at this level.

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Great to see that FINALLY, Jez Fanstone, Ian Neely and the team at YNZ are being recognised by ETNZ. A long, long time coming. There is so much young talent in NZ at the moment some of them will inevitably have to leave as the old guard will likely remain in place for some time (Dalton says 7 sailors, Barker, Ashby and I wonder). A small step in the right direction

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Good for the kids. Another lesson learned the hard way by Grumpy - shoulda listened to RC last time around.

 

Puts all TK's criticism and rants about RC's Facebooker comment in proper perspective too.

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And with every bit of good news there is always the bad..........................Barker is part of the "new Executive Committee to take decisions and load off GD" . No guess who the other members will be (Shoebridge, Farmer and Blackman probably). Could have been an opportunity for someone like Butterworth to bring some "balance" into the process.

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The most in-depth piece so far: http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup:-Emirates-Team-NZ-acquires-second-Kiwi-talent-stream/118356

 

Includes this..

--

Dalton also sees the imposition of a nationality rule, combined with the use of home-grown talent, as a good way of controlling costs in future America's Cup campaigns, as the negotiating power of sailors is somewhat reduced by preventing teams from importing top sailing talent.

--

 

Dalton is praying for a nationality rule and he's not going to get it. why would larry give up that advantage? he doesn't need that to get money from sponsors oracle is global. dalton thinks local, small time.

 

Interesting comment.

 

Aussies / Kiwis dominate every area of the AC, design, build, shore/boat crew.

 

Consider the above and tell me who is really a 'small time' player in the AC.

Because from where I sit yes USA (or more correct Larry) has the dollars but it lacks the design, build and sailing talent required for an AC.

And before you go all bananas about how much sailing talent Merica has think about why Larry employs overseas personnel and not domestic personnel(?).

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The USA absolutely has the design talent- many US designers on both ETNZ and Oracle during the last cup.

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The most in-depth piece so far: http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup:-Emirates-Team-NZ-acquires-second-Kiwi-talent-stream/118356

Includes this..

--

Dalton also sees the imposition of a nationality rule, combined with the use of home-grown talent, as a good way of controlling costs in future America's Cup campaigns, as the negotiating power of sailors is somewhat reduced by preventing teams from importing top sailing talent.

--

 

Dalton is praying for a nationality rule and he's not going to get it. why would larry give up that advantage? he doesn't need that to get money from sponsors oracle is global. dalton thinks local, small time.

Interesting comment.

 

Aussies / Kiwis dominate every area of the AC, design, build, shore/boat crew.

 

Consider the above and tell me who is really a 'small time' player in the AC.

Because from where I sit yes USA (or more correct Larry) has the dollars but it lacks the design, build and sailing talent required for an AC.

And before you go all bananas about how much sailing talent Merica has think about why Larry employs overseas personnel and not domestic personnel(?).

Bullshit on Kiwis having a superior design and sailing crew. Builders yes.

 

Also I find it interesting they, aka fuckwit Dalton, has finally decided to have a helmsman challenge Barker for the right to skipper. Should have happened two challenges ago!.

 

He obviously now concedes Barker is a dead beat.

 

Now he has to get rid of super choker Davis, then fall on his sword for being such a incompetent GM. After all the failure to finish the job falls on his desk.

 

But ? How can he sack himself?... oh well another four years until another loss!

 

Sooo... don't hold you're breath! The income will blind the rational thinking.

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And with every bit of good news there is always the bad..........................Barker is part of the "new Executive Committee to take decisions and load off GD" . No guess who the other members will be (Shoebridge, Farmer and Blackman probably). Could have been an opportunity for someone like Butterworth to bring some "balance" into the process.

Good call. Yip the choking gravy train all promote themselves to a new level of incompetence while the other crew members are nowhere to be seen.

 

Where is the independent audit of the previous management? Where is the "hard questions " of what went wrong and who failed to plan?...

 

Seems like the asylum is still run by the nutters.

 

I seriously doubt the two new boys will have much say with the two top losers pulling all the strings. They may have been better served staying away from the AC than being tainted by Barker and Dalton...aka team losers.

 

Actually Tuke and Co would learn more sailing with Coutts and Oracle.

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Interestingly Dalts emphasised that DB could not make it as he was up north in his $2.4 mill bach. Is Dalts not with his family anymore? Spithall still waiting on the beer!

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AC can you tell us what you want to achieve by posting the same thing over and over?? We get that you hate Dalton and Barker you have old us lots of times. You consider them Chokers we know this you are welcome to your opinion. Do you ever get bored of repeating yourself over and over again ???

 

Would you like us all to applaud you or something ? what are you actually trying to achieve with this constant repitition

 

Honest Question

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The USA absolutely has the design talent- many US designers on both ETNZ and Oracle during the last cup.

Wait for the latest Juan Kouyoumboudjan design.

In the first cup he designed he wasn't succesfull.

But it looked good to my opinion.

post-17796-0-02878100-1389695863_thumb.jpg

post-17796-0-24081800-1389695879_thumb.jpg

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Fair question. There is no silver bullet answer. Do we fire Dalts? No. Do we get rid of Barker and Davies? Sadly probably yes. Why? Not as good as the guys that are around at 30 years of age and mongrels. Get rid of Barker now? Yes as we only have $5mill to pay for good people. Dalts says 7 sailors have been retained. Who and why?

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Fair question. There is no silver bullet answer. Do we fire Dalts? No. Do we get rid of Barker and Davies? Sadly probably yes. Why? Not as good as the guys that are around at 30 years of age and mongrels. Get rid of Barker now? Yes as we only have $5mill to pay for good people. Dalts says 7 sailors have been retained. Who and why?

I liked Barker,

 

I guess he stays in the team as a tactician consultant.

The new lads from the 49 er will be succesfull I think.

49 medal race action :P

post-17796-0-39057400-1389697191_thumb.jpg

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Barker as a tactician? Never done it in hid life and not really in his personality to make a decision..................that was Rays job

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A skipper with the not the ability to make decisions? Really?

Have you ever seen Barker in TP52, AC72 ?

He is finalist!

 

He might help Ray Davies in the future.

Maybe , I hope so , He will skipper the ETNZ campaign for the 35th cup.

post-17796-0-78609500-1389701073_thumb.jpg

post-17796-0-20231300-1389701136_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

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Someone needs to pat the Koreans on the back they gave both Outeridge and Burling their first shots at this level.

 

And Draper.

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Team New Zealand managing director Grant Dalton says at this stage Dean Barker is the skipper.

 

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/spyac/1473913058-sailing--burling-wants-to-skipper-team-nz

 

Last year's America's Cup continues to haunt Team New Zealand's boss.

Grant Dalton says none of their reviews have been able to explain how they gave up an 8-1 lead to lose to Oracle.

"I wake up at two o'clock in the morning and will do for the rest of my life.

 

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/spyac/1330743034-sailing--dalton-kept-awake-at-night-by-cup-loss

 

Sounds like grumpy is still shell shocked from the loss. Hard to believe he doesn't understand the loss given the amount of livelline race data available, race videos and post cup information provided on the comeback win by OTUSA.

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Barker as a tactician? Never done it in hid life and not really in his personality to make a decision..................that was Rays job

 

 

It read "tactician consultant".

And yes, Barker has done it in his life, for Artemis in the RC44 for example. Dunno about his Transpac, maybe there also.

 

Phew... finally some real news.

 

EDIT: Oh, one more thing: Moving DB into management of the team with less sailing and more strategic tasks is already discussed since years. No big news there.

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Fair question. There is no silver bullet answer. Do we fire Dalts? No. Do we get rid of Barker and Davies? Sadly probably yes. Why? Not as good as the guys that are around at 30 years of age and mongrels. Get rid of Barker now? Yes as we only have $5mill to pay for good people. Dalts says 7 sailors have been retained. Who and why?

I liked Barker,

 

I guess he stays in the team as a tactician consultant.

The new lads from the 49 er will be succesfull I think.

49 medal race action :P

attachicon.gifPeter Burling and Blair Tuke 49 ers.jpg

Burling barely cracked the top 10 at Moth Worlds. Might be the fastest skiffie in the world, but only 10th fastest foiler.

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Fair question. There is no silver bullet answer. Do we fire Dalts? No. Do we get rid of Barker and Davies? Sadly probably yes. Why? Not as good as the guys that are around at 30 years of age and mongrels. Get rid of Barker now? Yes as we only have $5mill to pay for good people. Dalts says 7 sailors have been retained. Who and why?

I liked Barker,

 

I guess he stays in the team as a tactician consultant.

The new lads from the 49 er will be succesfull I think.

49 medal race action :P

attachicon.gifPeter Burling and Blair Tuke 49 ers.jpg

Burling barely cracked the top 10 at Moth Worlds. Might be the fastest skiffie in the world, but only 10th fastest foiler.

 

What a loser.after being 4th in 2011. No way he's going to make it given he's already 23 years of age.

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A skipper with the not the ability to make decisions? Really?

Have you ever seen Barker in TP52, AC72 ?

He is finalist!

 

He might help Ray Davies in the future.

Maybe , I hope so , He will skipper the ETNZ campaign for the 35th cup.

attachicon.gifRay Davies.jpg

attachicon.gifDean Barker.jpg

Barker only wins in boats he has a speed advantage with. in class boats he is poor. his Olympic and class boat record is rubbish.

 

as a tactician he is average and need to be surrounded with some one with skill.

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Barker as a tactician? Never done it in hid life and not really in his personality to make a decision..................that was Rays job

 

It read "tactician consultant".

And yes, Barker has done it in his life, for Artemis in the RC44 for example. Dunno about his Transpac, maybe there also.

 

Phew... finally some real news.

 

EDIT: Oh, one more thing: Moving DB into management of the team with less sailing and more strategic tasks is already discussed since years. No big news there.

 

 

Barker in management!? fuck ! he could not manage Jack! all he is doing is taking money away from emplying other good sailors to actually win something.

 

this is clear evidence of the Gravy train getting more top heavy. What is going on with rod "ultimate AC slut" Davis. his thirty years of AC failures is sublime and ETNZ keep the loser on big money for what?

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Team New Zealand managing director Grant Dalton says at this stage Dean Barker is the skipper.

 

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/spyac/1473913058-sailing--burling-wants-to-skipper-team-nz

 

Last year's America's Cup continues to haunt Team New Zealand's boss.

Grant Dalton says none of their reviews have been able to explain how they gave up an 8-1 lead to lose to Oracle.

"I wake up at two o'clock in the morning and will do for the rest of my life.

 

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/spyac/1330743034-sailing--dalton-kept-awake-at-night-by-cup-loss

 

Sounds like grumpy is still shell shocked from the loss. Hard to believe he doesn't understand the loss given the amount of livelline race data available, race videos and post cup information provided on the comeback win by OTUSA.

well that says it all!!!

 

Daltons internal reviews could not determine why they failed!!!

 

well Grant! get a external review of your "Team Choke".... oops no that would show all the management excess,s and incompetence. it would show daltons poor skill on Foil exposure being to early, and wasted efforts on Pie warmers..., it would show Davis is incompetent, and it would show Barkers ultimate inability to evolve as a sailor

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Fair question. There is no silver bullet answer. Do we fire Dalts? No. Do we get rid of Barker and Davies? Sadly probably yes. Why? Not as good as the guys that are around at 30 years of age and mongrels. Get rid of Barker now? Yes as we only have $5mill to pay for good people. Dalts says 7 sailors have been retained. Who and why?

 

I liked Barker,

 

I guess he stays in the team as a tactician consultant.

The new lads from the 49 er will be succesfull I think.

 

49 medal race action :P

attachicon.gifPeter Burling and Blair Tuke 49 ers.jpg

Burling barely cracked the top 10 at Moth Worlds. Might be the fastest skiffie in the world, but only 10th fastest foiler.

Nice troll in a troll post.

All the time you spent with the Moth guys, you obviously didn't ask them how they thought Burling would go in any other conditions than the majority shitty light wind in Hawaii.

See the results from the Wangi AUS Nats last year?

I guess you are only as good as your last race.

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that is very damning on Daltons management.

 

"The move to flatten the organisational structure was prompted by a review into the 9-8 loss to defenders Oracle, which found Team New Zealand's decision-making was compromised by having one man at the top making all the calls.

 

"We have to expand the way we make decisions, because that was where we made a mistake in San Francisco. We closed in too much, we stayed very fluid [in Auckland] but we closed into a very process-focused environment in San Francisco and we weren't able to respond quick enough because of that," said Dalton.

 

"There's so much experience within the organisation that the way we make decisions needs to be a bit smarter. I need"

 

his statement "we close in to much" is spot on!

 

the whole team was a closed shop with no external reviews of their process's and decisions.

 

Dalton, Shoebridge, davis, barker fucked up and never were challenged in their thinking.

 

they have to go.

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Liquid Assett NZ, on 14 Jan 2014 - 23:07, said:

AC can you tell us what you want to achieve by posting the same thing over and over?? We get that you hate Dalton and Barker you have old us lots of times. You consider them Chokers we know this you are welcome to your opinion. Do you ever get bored of repeating yourself over and over again ???

 

Would you like us all to applaud you or something ? what are you actually trying to achieve with this constant repitition

 

Honest Question

stupid question.

 

they fucked up and change is needed.

 

while they remain. leading team Choke, I will challenge them.

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while they remain. leading team Choke, I will challenge them.

They must be shitting themselves.

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Rohanoz, on 15 Jan 2014 - 09:13, said:

 

 

MR.CLEAN, on 15 Jan 2014 - 06:02, said:

 

 

schakel, on 14 Jan 2014 - 23:47, said:

 

 

thetruth, on 14 Jan 2014 - 23:38, said:

Fair question. There is no silver bullet answer. Do we fire Dalts? No. Do we get rid of Barker and Davies? Sadly probably yes. Why? Not as good as the guys that are around at 30 years of age and mongrels. Get rid of Barker now? Yes as we only have $5mill to pay for good people. Dalts says 7 sailors have been retained. Who and why?

I liked Barker,

 

I guess he stays in the team as a tactician consultant.

The new lads from the 49 er will be succesfull I think.

 

49 medal race action :P

attachicon.gifPeter Burling and Blair Tuke 49 ers.jpg

 

Burling barely cracked the top 10 at Moth Worlds. Might be the fastest skiffie in the world, but only 10th fastest foiler.

 

Nice troll in a troll post.

All the time you spent with the Moth guys, you obviously didn't ask them how they thought Burling would go in any other conditions than the majority shitty light wind in Hawaii.

See the results from the Wangi AUS Nats last year?

I guess you are only as good as your last race.

 

well said.

 

when has Barker ever got in the top ten of a world champs in a Class one design boat (WHERE IT IS SAILOR V SAILOR AND NOT MONEY V MONEY OR DESIGN/RULE MANIPULATION V DESIGN/RULE MANIPULATION)

 

LIKE MOST KIWIS HE HIDES IN CLASSES WHERE THERE IS A CHANCE TO BUILD A FASTER BOAT! and never have you're true skill tested in One design)

 

Tuke and co win in one design as well as mavericks.

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Rohanoz, on 15 Jan 2014 - 09:13, said:

 

MR.CLEAN, on 15 Jan 2014 - 06:02, said:

 

schakel, on 14 Jan 2014 - 23:47, said:

 

thetruth, on 14 Jan 2014 - 23:38, said:

Fair question. There is no silver bullet answer. Do we fire Dalts? No. Do we get rid of Barker and Davies? Sadly probably yes. Why? Not as good as the guys that are around at 30 years of age and mongrels. Get rid of Barker now? Yes as we only have $5mill to pay for good people. Dalts says 7 sailors have been retained. Who and why?

I liked Barker,

 

I guess he stays in the team as a tactician consultant.

The new lads from the 49 er will be succesfull I think.

 

49 medal race action :P

attachicon.gifPeter Burling and Blair Tuke 49 ers.jpg

Burling barely cracked the top 10 at Moth Worlds. Might be the fastest skiffie in the world, but only 10th fastest foiler.

Nice troll in a troll post.

All the time you spent with the Moth guys, you obviously didn't ask them how they thought Burling would go in any other conditions than the majority shitty light wind in Hawaii.

See the results from the Wangi AUS Nats last year?

I guess you are only as good as your last race.

well said.

 

when has Barker ever got in the top ten of a world champs in a Class one design boat (WHERE IT IS SAILOR V SAILOR AND NOT MONEY V MONEY OR DESIGN/RULE MANIPULATION V DESIGN/RULE MANIPULATION)

 

LIKE MOST KIWIS HE HIDES IN CLASSES WHERE THERE IS A CHANCE TO BUILD A FASTER BOAT! and never have you're true skill tested in One design)

 

Tuke and co win in one design as well as mavericks.

"Like most Kiwis" WTF is that about. Just look at the success of Kiwi sailors internationally in One Design Classes. Don't denigrate the vast majority of Kiwi sailors because you have a hard on over a couple of people you dont like. Time to move on sunshine.

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Rohanoz, on 15 Jan 2014 - 09:13, said:

MR.CLEAN, on 15 Jan 2014 - 06:02, said:

schakel, on 14 Jan 2014 - 23:47, said:

thetruth, on 14 Jan 2014 - 23:38, said:

Fair question. There is no silver bullet answer. Do we fire Dalts? No. Do we get rid of Barker and Davies? Sadly probably yes. Why? Not as good as the guys that are around at 30 years of age and mongrels. Get rid of Barker now? Yes as we only have $5mill to pay for good people. Dalts says 7 sailors have been retained. Who and why?

I liked Barker,

I guess he stays in the team as a tactician consultant.

The new lads from the 49 er will be succesfull I think.

49 medal race action :Pattachicon.gifPeter Burling and Blair Tuke 49 ers.jpg

Burling barely cracked the top 10 at Moth Worlds. Might be the fastest skiffie in the world, but only 10th fastest foiler.
Nice troll in a troll post.

All the time you spent with the Moth guys, you obviously didn't ask them how they thought Burling would go in any other conditions than the majority shitty light wind in Hawaii.

See the results from the Wangi AUS Nats last year?

I guess you are only as good as your last race.

well said.

when has Barker ever got in the top ten of a world champs in a Class one design boat (WHERE IT IS SAILOR V SAILOR AND NOT MONEY V MONEY OR DESIGN/RULE MANIPULATION V DESIGN/RULE MANIPULATION)

LIKE MOST KIWIS HE HIDES IN CLASSES WHERE THERE IS A CHANCE TO BUILD A FASTER BOAT! and never have you're true skill tested in One design)

Tuke and co win in one design as well as mavericks.

Er ...the moth isn't a one design class you stupid fucking unemployed kiwi fuck stick.

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Dalton -

"Team New Zealand boss Grant Dalton does not expect the costs of another America's Cup campaign to reduce from the $120 million spent on last year's failed attempt.

While it has been suggested team budgets from last year's event in San Francisco will be reduced next time around, Dalton said the reality of spending less than US$100m would yield one very simple result - defeat.

"I think we're playing with similar numbers to last time," Dalton said."

 

 

Funny how Dalton predicts the cost of the next campaign without knowing what and where they are sailing.

 

This is a classic example of his stupidity.

 

standby for another Choke!.... 4 more years of pain Kiwi's

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^ He's in a tough spot as a fundraiser, having to face questions like 'Why do you need so much if costs are dropping?'

 

That's why he pooh-poohs the whole idea; he's always been a "we need more to keep up" arguer in the past and the whole thing undercuts his need-more premise.

 

There's a good chance that RC really does have only $80 to work with this time, as incentive to agree a situation where more isn't needed for a solid shot to Defend, and/or to win.

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^ He's in a tough spot as a fundraiser, having to face questions like 'Why do you need so much if costs are dropping?'

 

That's why he pooh-poohs the whole idea; he's always been a "we need more to keep up" arguer in the past and the whole thing undercuts his need-more premise.

 

There's a good chance that RC really does have only $80 to work with this time, as incentive to agree a situation where more isn't needed for a solid shot to Defend, and/or to win.

GD is always looking for an edge. Discouraging other possible competitors by bashing the attempts to lower spending and announcing his huge budget is just his way of increasing his odds. And all this based on knowing nothing about AC 35. Its early but GD has already started flinging shit.

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Last year's America's Cup continues to haunt Team New Zealand's boss.

Grant Dalton says none of their reviews have been able to explain how they gave up an 8-1 lead to lose to Oracle.

 

And that says it all. The fact that they cant work out why their boat was slower, when it's painfully obvious to everyone else, tells you that it's time to get rid of the management and design team and start again.

 

Oracle was a low drag boat - low drag hulls, low drag platform, low drag foils from day 1, even if it meant that they struggled with stiffness and stability. Dalton insisted on a boat that was stiff and safe, but that resulted in bigger fatter hulls, bigger foils (initially) and poor aerodynamics for the platform.

 

Suck it up Dalts, your team made bad decisions that should have lost you the cup 9:0. Instead you got lucky (for a while anyway) and almost beat Oracle because their team was so shambolic. But that doesn't change the fact that your boat was a finely engineered fuck-up.

 

There's a saying that it's more important to do the right thing than to do things right. Execution is important, but in the end it's wasted if your design is fundamentally the wrong concept.

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^ He's in a tough spot as a fundraiser, having to face questions like 'Why do you need so much if costs are dropping?'

 

That's why he pooh-poohs the whole idea; he's always been a "we need more to keep up" arguer in the past and the whole thing undercuts his need-more premise.

 

There's a good chance that RC really does have only $80 to work with this time, as incentive to agree a situation where more isn't needed for a solid shot to Defend, and/or to win.

GD is always looking for an edge. Discouraging other possible competitors by bashing the attempts to lower spending and announcing his huge budget is just his way of increasing his odds. And all this based on knowing nothing about AC 35. Its early but GD has already started flinging shit.

He flings shit so as not to expose the real idiot and comprehensive loser he really is.

 

He is also protecting his income.

 

 

but what is worse is the fact he states the internal review found fuck all wrong except his poor "one MAn in charge" leadership style. .... wow dalts "one man" "Hitlerish" style failed... what a suprise!!!

 

and he is still there.... but now on Directors wages!!!

 

typical..... fuck up and then ignore the responsibility... followed by a promotion.

 

ETNZ are fucked whle they have dalton in charge and Barker involved. they have provce the are not up to it. Daltonm has confirmed he fucked up and they are still there taking the money and building nest eggs.

 

Kiwis are as thick as two planks to believe the rhetoric and spin from Dalton and Barker, to trust them.... and..... to give money to a gravy train that keeps on taking money for NO results. forget the Profile!!! losers are losers! and these chokers are wrecking NZ,s once famous sailing heritage.

 

Coutts does more for NZ,s sailing credibility than ETC (Emirates Team Choke) does... both on the water and off!

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Last year's America's Cup continues to haunt Team New Zealand's boss.

Grant Dalton says none of their reviews have been able to explain how they gave up an 8-1 lead to lose to Oracle.

 

And that says it all. The fact that they cant work out why their boat was slower, when it's painfully obvious to everyone else, tells you that it's time to get rid of the management and design team and start again.

 

Oracle was a low drag boat - low drag hulls, low drag platform, low drag foils from day 1, even if it meant that they struggled with stiffness and stability. Dalton insisted on a boat that was stiff and safe, but that resulted in bigger fatter hulls, bigger foils (initially) and poor aerodynamics for the platform.

 

Suck it up Dalts, your team made bad decisions that should have lost you the cup 9:0. Instead you got lucky (for a while anyway) and almost beat Oracle because their team was so shambolic. But that doesn't change the fact that your boat was a finely engineered fuck-up.

 

There's a saying that it's more important to do the right thing than to do things right. Execution is important, but in the end it's wasted if your design is fundamentally the wrong concept.

Nice!

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^ He's in a tough spot as a fundraiser, having to face questions like 'Why do you need so much if costs are dropping?'

 

That's why he pooh-poohs the whole idea; he's always been a "we need more to keep up" arguer in the past and the whole thing undercuts his need-more premise.

 

There's a good chance that RC really does have only $80 to work with this time, as incentive to agree a situation where more isn't needed for a solid shot to Defend, and/or to win.

GD is always looking for an edge. Discouraging other possible competitors by bashing the attempts to lower spending and announcing his huge budget is just his way of increasing his odds. And all this based on knowing nothing about AC 35. Its early but GD has already started flinging shit.

Yep- You put it better than me.

 

No stopping the assault.

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^ He's in a tough spot as a fundraiser, having to face questions like 'Why do you need so much if costs are dropping?'

 

That's why he pooh-poohs the whole idea; he's always been a "we need more to keep up" arguer in the past and the whole thing undercuts his need-more premise.

 

There's a good chance that RC really does have only $80 to work with this time, as incentive to agree a situation where more isn't needed for a solid shot to Defend, and/or to win.

GD is always looking for an edge. Discouraging other possible competitors by bashing the attempts to lower spending and announcing his huge budget is just his way of increasing his odds. And all this based on knowing nothing about AC 35. Its early but GD has already started flinging shit.

He flings shit so as not to expose the real idiot and comprehensive loser he really is.

 

He is also protecting his income.

 

 

but what is worse is the fact he states the internal review found fuck all wrong except his poor "one MAn in charge" leadership style. .... wow dalts "one man" "Hitlerish" style failed... what a suprise!!!

 

and he is still there.... but now on Directors wages!!!

 

typical..... fuck up and then ignore the responsibility... followed by a promotion.

 

ETNZ are fucked whle they have dalton in charge and Barker involved. they have provce the are not up to it. Daltonm has confirmed he fucked up and they are still there taking the money and building nest eggs.

 

Kiwis are as thick as two planks to believe the rhetoric and spin from Dalton and Barker, to trust them.... and..... to give money to a gravy train that keeps on taking money for NO results. forget the Profile!!! losers are losers! and these chokers are wrecking NZ,s once famous sailing heritage.

 

Coutts does more for NZ,s sailing credibility than ETC (Emirates Team Choke) does... both on the water and off!

 

Hey AC, are you also a full-time commenter on the NZ Stuff website? because your rants are almost exactly the same as some of the shit posted by the fuckwits over there.

 

do the rest of us Kiwi's a favour and stop behaving like a spoiled cunt.

 

go and jerk off, that might help with the anger problems

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^ He's in a tough spot as a fundraiser, having to face questions like 'Why do you need so much if costs are dropping?'

 

That's why he pooh-poohs the whole idea; he's always been a "we need more to keep up" arguer in the past and the whole thing undercuts his need-more premise.

 

There's a good chance that RC really does have only $80 to work with this time, as incentive to agree a situation where more isn't needed for a solid shot to Defend, and/or to win.

GD is always looking for an edge. Discouraging other possible competitors by bashing the attempts to lower spending and announcing his huge budget is just his way of increasing his odds. And all this based on knowing nothing about AC 35. Its early but GD has already started flinging shit.

 

 

He flings shit so as not to expose the real idiot and comprehensive loser he really is.

 

He is also protecting his income.

 

 

but what is worse is the fact he states the internal review found fuck all wrong except his poor "one MAn in charge" leadership style. .... wow dalts "one man" "Hitlerish" style failed... what a suprise!!!

 

and he is still there.... but now on Directors wages!!!

 

typical..... fuck up and then ignore the responsibility... followed by a promotion.

 

ETNZ are fucked whle they have dalton in charge and Barker involved. they have provce the are not up to it. Daltonm has confirmed he fucked up and they are still there taking the money and building nest eggs.

 

Kiwis are as thick as two planks to believe the rhetoric and spin from Dalton and Barker, to trust them.... and..... to give money to a gravy train that keeps on taking money for NO results. forget the Profile!!! losers are losers! and these chokers are wrecking NZ,s once famous sailing heritage.

 

Coutts does more for NZ,s sailing credibility than ETC (Emirates Team Choke) does... both on the water and off!

 

 

Hey AC, are you also a full-time commenter on the NZ Stuff website? because your rants are almost exactly the same as some of the shit posted by the fuckwits over there.

 

do the rest of us Kiwi's a favour and stop behaving like a spoiled cunt.

 

go and jerk off, that might help with the anger problems

 

 

spoken like a true kiwi 'angry person".

 

Stuff is not ranting you numbskull. they don't have to. all they do is quote Grant Dalton and it comes over as a rant/winge/moan/ excuses.

 

Any kiwi that supports Dalts and barker gets exactly what they deserve...... a choke fest...cough cough

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^ He's in a tough spot as a fundraiser, having to face questions like 'Why do you need so much if costs are dropping?'

 

That's why he pooh-poohs the whole idea; he's always been a "we need more to keep up" arguer in the past and the whole thing undercuts his need-more premise.

 

There's a good chance that RC really does have only $80 to work with this time, as incentive to agree a situation where more isn't needed for a solid shot to Defend, and/or to win.

GD is always looking for an edge. Discouraging other possible competitors by bashing the attempts to lower spending and announcing his huge budget is just his way of increasing his odds. And all this based on knowing nothing about AC 35. Its early but GD has already started flinging shit.

 

He flings shit so as not to expose the real idiot and comprehensive loser he really is.

 

He is also protecting his income.

 

 

but what is worse is the fact he states the internal review found fuck all wrong except his poor "one MAn in charge" leadership style. .... wow dalts "one man" "Hitlerish" style failed... what a suprise!!!

 

and he is still there.... but now on Directors wages!!!

 

typical..... fuck up and then ignore the responsibility... followed by a promotion.

 

ETNZ are fucked whle they have dalton in charge and Barker involved. they have provce the are not up to it. Daltonm has confirmed he fucked up and they are still there taking the money and building nest eggs.

 

Kiwis are as thick as two planks to believe the rhetoric and spin from Dalton and Barker, to trust them.... and..... to give money to a gravy train that keeps on taking money for NO results. forget the Profile!!! losers are losers! and these chokers are wrecking NZ,s once famous sailing heritage.

 

Coutts does more for NZ,s sailing credibility than ETC (Emirates Team Choke) does... both on the water and off!

 

Hey AC, are you also a full-time commenter on the NZ Stuff website? because your rants are almost exactly the same as some of the shit posted by the fuckwits over there.

 

do the rest of us Kiwi's a favour and stop behaving like a spoiled cunt.

 

go and jerk off, that might help with the anger problems

 

spoken like a true kiwi 'angry person".

 

Stuff is not ranting you numbskull. they don't have to. all they do is quote Grant Dalton and it comes over as a rant/winge/moan/ excuses.

 

Any kiwi that supports Dalts and barker gets exactly what they deserve...... a choke fest...cough cough

Hah, hardly mate, just tired of seeing people like you run around like you're an expert on everything.

 

No, it was a general reference to reader comments on the Stuff website. not the actual reporting of Fairfax reporters.

 

OK then, if Dalton and Barker are chokers who deserve to go, name us your preferred sailing and management team? go on, show us that you know best.......... I won't hold my breath waiting.

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CLEAN:

Why don't you clean up the garbage in some of these forums.

Get rid of AC and the trolls so we can have some decent dialogue.

The antagonistic comments from them takes away from what may well be some very interesting and constructive discussion.

If you wonder why some members come for a while and then leave - I can tell you right now, it is the trolls.

Many of us would really appreciate it if you would keep the house clean.

Please …. :)

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CLEAN:

Why don't you clean up the garbage in some of these forums.

Get rid of AC and the trolls so we can have some decent dialogue.

The antagonistic comments from them takes away from what may well be some very interesting and constructive discussion.

If you wonder why some members come for a while and then leave - I can tell you right now, it is the trolls.

Many of us would really appreciate it if you would keep the house clean.

Please …. :)

its only guys like me that start the discussions. guys like you just moan when the truth is told and you don't like it.

 

but hey keep backing the chokers while OTUSA whip ass.

 

what did your post offer to the debate other than moaning???...idiot!

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'Yip' starting the same thread over and over on a forum is probably your greatest achievement in life, two dicks. Celebrate it mate. Your sad little life has peaked.

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If AC left off the "idiot" at the end of his reply perhaps others wouldn't be tempted to put AC on ignore

 

Just saying... Play the ball, not the man!

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If AC left off the "idiot" at the end of his reply perhaps others wouldn't be tempted to put AC on ignore

 

Just saying... Play the ball, not the man!

oh I see the guy I reply to gets it wrong and plays the man. I reply. and... I,m the idiot!... tell me how that works again?....Idiot.

 

by the way this is my thread. start your own!

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!

 

 

Hey AC, are you also a full-time commenter on the NZ Stuff website? because your rants are almost exactly the same as some of the shit posted by the fuckwits over there.

 

do the rest of us Kiwi's a favour and stop behaving like a spoiled cunt.

 

go and jerk off, that might help with the anger problems

 

spoken like a true kiwi 'angry person".

 

Stuff is not ranting you numbskull. they don't have to. all they do is quote Grant Dalton and it comes over as a rant/winge/moan/ excuses.

 

Any kiwi that supports Dalts and barker gets exactly what they deserve...... a choke fest...cough cough

Hah, hardly mate, just tired of seeing people like you run around like you're an expert on everything.

 

No, it was a general reference to reader comments on the Stuff website. not the actual reporting of Fairfax reporters.

 

OK then, if Dalton and Barker are chokers who deserve to go, name us your preferred sailing and management team? go on, show us that you know best.......... I won't hold my breath waiting.

 

oh I don't know.... maybe

 

Moose

Quilter

Dickson

Egnot

Dodson

Jones

any NZ Volvo skipper like Ross Fields

or a couple of euros like Torben grael, .... plus many many more better skilled and qualified WINNERS

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Team NZ need to make changes otherwise while we know they'll be good they won't beat USA. When you look at Barker/Davies vs Spithill, Slingsby & Ainslie I think we know who were better. Dalton needs to move on, they have some issues and unless somebody has the winning answers I wouldn't be challenging again.

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If AC left off the "idiot" at the end of his reply perhaps others wouldn't be tempted to put AC on ignore

Just saying... Play the ball, not the man!

Oh don't worry- he plays with balls - he likes them slapping on his chin.

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If AC left off the "idiot" at the end of his reply perhaps others wouldn't be tempted to put AC on ignoreJust saying... Play the ball, not the man!

oh I see the guy I reply to gets it wrong and plays the man. I reply. and... I,m the idiot!... tell me how that works again?....Idiot.by the way this is my thread. start your own!

One... two... Three...

 

Be calm...

 

Nahhh fark it!

 

AC .... You have some interesting posts but quite frankly your obsession with ETNZ and GD/DB is bordering on some form of disorder which may only be solved with professional help. Have a nice day

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Rush man.

 

Do you feel 100% confident in Dalton, Davis, and Barker?... do you.

 

Do you want to win the cup or pay millions just to participate?

 

Do you trust the same people to change their ways and challenge themselves to improve and evolve. Do you think they are capable after 13 years of failure.

 

Do you think Dalton and Co are in it for the profile?, Money?, sponsors, or to win the cup.

 

Would Dalton and Barker do it for no salary? ( this would be the true test of their loyalty.

 

It may be weird for you to believe this but I would like NZ to win. But half a billion dollars and thirteen years later I now know this current teams leaders are complete failures.

 

They are taking the piss and laughing at you gullible kiwis if they think they are doing the right thing by Kiwi supporters and can change and win. They are dillusional to carry on without a complete review and people to challenge the "gravy train" management.

 

The fact that Dalton admits his leadership/style was flawed and yet he now wants to continue, ( following his comments post the AC that he wanted to leave), shows he is just after the money and not the Cup.

 

A good CEO would call for a independent review and a change to the culture, leadership and direction of the current flawed model.

 

The fact that they both have not taken time away to reflect on the Choke, show how poorly they understand the failure and their contribution to the chronic failure they managed.

 

The lack of a external review shows they have issues and problems they do not wish to expose. It also show a complete lack of transparency and respect for all NZ sailors.

 

The fact Dalton has not realised Barker is flawed and Davis is the AC's best loser just shows complete ignorance and insular thinking.

 

This team is not challenged at any level and thus the gravy train team never have to lift themselves when challenged. We saw this in the Cup and we saw the lack of response to Oracles challenge. barker was left stuck in the head lights as Jimmy ran him over.

 

You are both stupid and gullible to trust the same idiots to run this team again without challenge from other better people, sailors, and managers.

 

The problem you have is that ETNZ is not a NZ representative team but a private corporate entity. This entity is run by Dalton and we all know that Turkeys never want thanks giving to come along. Thus Dalton and barker and the directors are all happy to piss in each others pockets and never vote for Thanks giving.

 

Explain to me how that business model will ever promote change, challenge, a team of the best sailors and winners... it will not and never will.

 

eTNZ is a failed team and will always be a failed and flawed team until dynamic change happens

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AC.... I am an Aussie, I don't really care

 

I still think that something Oracle did to improve wasn't quite right... They became too stable on the foils too quickly

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While it is never good to let facts get in the way of a good sledging, let's look at one of the critical areas where JS and DB could be compared, where they were in total control, namely the starts. There were 19 races, plus 3 more starts where the races were later abandoned, making 22 competitive starts in total. If we take getting to the first mark in the lead as the best indicator of the start (which is all I would argue is important), DB and JS actually shared the honours, 11 starts each. If you look at the 19 races, JS just edged it with 10 vs 9 by DB. Even if you look at things from when it was 8-1, there were actually 10 starts (one race didn't finish) and each won 5 of them. I think that was pretty impressive from DB, seeing that by then OR turned and accelerated better.

 

Comparing the 2 guys in something other than the AC, I have had the pleasure of racing against both in A Class cats. Yes, I know its not the AC, but there were some of the best cat sailors in the world racing. The time DB showed up, he had not sailed A's (I don't think he had sailed cats either) until a month before the event. He also said he hadn't trapezed for as long as he could remember, yet for somebody with such little experience, he won more than half the starts and led at the top mark more than half the races, a feat I haven't even seen Glenn Ashby manage either then or since. Sure, he wasn't as good downhill (he was also on the heavy side) which meant he finished 5th overall, but everybody who saw it was seriously impressed. With all due respects to JS, it was a far better performance than I have seen from him, even though JS had far more A and other cat experience. Today, if I had to bet on one vs the other in A's, my money would be in DB.

 

Then you add to that the performances of DB in classes like the TP52 (which he dominated), or even the AC45's when ETNZ were taking them seriously. Until ETNZ changed their focus and only arrived at the ACWS events at the last minute and stopped AC45 training, they DB dominated JS.

 

To be honest, I would be delighted to have either on my team and would find it very hard to choose between them. Ultimately, they are only as good as the team around them but all this smack down talk about DB shows a total lack of understanding of our sport and just how good he is.

 

I guess I should have known better than to feed the troll, but I felt it needed to be said.

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AC.... I am an Aussie, I don't really care

 

I still think that something Oracle did to improve wasn't quite right... They became too stable on the foils too quickly

exactly

 

they cheated some how and temporarily got away with it

 

pity and pathetic - I am sure simonn and sw soiler will post bs counter to the truth

 

ortusa sudden improvements were 100% reversal of it dipping and pitch poling

 

cheers

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While it is never good to let facts get in the way of a good sledging, let's look at one of the critical areas where JS and DB could be compared, where they were in total control, namely the starts. There were 19 races, plus 3 more starts where the races were later abandoned, making 22 competitive starts in total. If we take getting to the first mark in the lead as the best indicator of the start (which is all I would argue is important), DB and JS actually shared the honours, 11 starts each. If you look at the 19 races, JS just edged it with 10 vs 9 by DB. Even if you look at things from when it was 8-1, there were actually 10 starts (one race didn't finish) and each won 5 of them. I think that was pretty impressive from DB, seeing that by then OR turned and accelerated better.

 

Comparing the 2 guys in something other than the AC, I have had the pleasure of racing against both in A Class cats. Yes, I know its not the AC, but there were some of the best cat sailors in the world racing. The time DB showed up, he had not sailed A's (I don't think he had sailed cats either) until a month before the event. He also said he hadn't trapezed for as long as he could remember, yet for somebody with such little experience, he won more than half the starts and led at the top mark more than half the races, a feat I haven't even seen Glenn Ashby manage either then or since. Sure, he wasn't as good downhill (he was also on the heavy side) which meant he finished 5th overall, but everybody who saw it was seriously impressed. With all due respects to JS, it was a far better performance than I have seen from him, even though JS had far more A and other cat experience. Today, if I had to bet on one vs the other in A's, my money would be in DB.

 

Then you add to that the performances of DB in classes like the TP52 (which he dominated), or even the AC45's when ETNZ were taking them seriously. Until ETNZ changed their focus and only arrived at the ACWS events at the last minute and stopped AC45 training, they DB dominated JS.

 

To be honest, I would be delighted to have either on my team and would find it very hard to choose between them. Ultimately, they are only as good as the team around them but all this smack down talk about DB shows a total lack of understanding of our sport and just how good he is.

 

I guess I should have known better than to feed the troll, but I felt it needed to be said.

What poor examples. No mention of his Finn sailing record.

 

As for dominating the TP52. Well he had the fastest boat and the only one of its design.

 

As for the A class. Well where did he end up?... winning starts and leading at the top mark is achievable by many average sailor. Crossing the finishing line first and winningnoverall is the domain of true great sailors. And... he got dorked in every race... at the finish line... and in a class that is so tightly ruled that it is almost one design.

 

Sorry. He is not up to it as are you poor excuses for his ability. A couple of my mates sailed against him in TP52s. Most of his wins were from superior boat speed and his tacticians skill to jag wind shifts.

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AC.... I am an Aussie, I don't really care

I still think that something Oracle did to improve wasn't quite right... They became too stable on the foils too quickly

exactly

 

they cheated some how and temporarily got away with it

 

pity and pathetic - I am sure simonn and sw soiler will post bs counter to the truth

 

ortusa sudden improvements were 100% reversal of it dipping and pitch poling

 

cheers

Are you on drugs or what? If they cheated do you think they would leave the cheating until 8:2 down to start?

 

Do you seriously think a team of over 100 normal people would buy into cheating and not one of them say something or spill the beans.

 

You are a complete Muppet and buy into bullshit.... and all because you cannot believe how poorly ETNZ planned for OTUSA's improvement and self belief.

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AC.... I am an Aussie, I don't really care

I still think that something Oracle did to improve wasn't quite right... They became too stable on the foils too quickly

All they did was get their design and foil control right. Read the explanation given above that I agree with. It explains what they did and want ETNZ failed to do.

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AC.... I am an Aussie, I don't really care

I still think that something Oracle did to improve wasn't quite right... They became too stable on the foils too quickly

exactly

 

they cheated some how and temporarily got away with it

 

pity and pathetic - I am sure simonn and sw soiler will post bs counter to the truth

 

ortusa sudden improvements were 100% reversal of it dipping and pitch poling

 

cheers

Are you on drugs or what? If they cheated do you think they would leave the cheating until 8:2 down to start?

 

Do you seriously think a team of over 100 normal people would buy into cheating and not one of them say something or spill the beans.

 

You are a complete Muppet and buy into bullshit.... and all because you cannot believe how poorly ETNZ planned for OTUSA's improvement and self belief.

on the cheating by ggyc -ortusa - yes

 

and it was confirmed before -remember ?

 

and maybe etnz took some kind of dive on races too

 

too weird they both switched in performance - total reversal - whatever - ggyc will lose their corp status soon

 

-ggyc are experts at cheating under evilsin and demon ehman - ''jimmy the rules ''

 

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AC.... I am an Aussie, I don't really care

I still think that something Oracle did to improve wasn't quite right... They became too stable on the foils too quickly

All they did was get their design and foil control right. Read the explanation given above that I agree with. It explains what they did and want ETNZ failed to do.

The explanation are just words on a screen...

 

What I saw on the TV showed a MASSIVE improvement in stability.... Such control is not achieved overnight IHMO.

 

Something just doesn't seem right, that is my opinion and the last time I checked I am entitled to have one.

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AC.... I am an Aussie, I don't really care

I still think that something Oracle did to improve wasn't quite right... They became too stable on the foils too quickly

All they did was get their design and foil control right. Read the explanation given above that I agree with. It explains what they did and want ETNZ failed to do.

 

 

The explanation are just words on a screen...

 

What I saw on the TV showed a MASSIVE improvement in stability.... Such control is not achieved overnight IHMO.

 

Something just doesn't seem right, that is my opinion and the last time I checked I am entitled to have one.

 

 

I also defend your right to be stupid.

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SimonN:

 

Agreed, that's what i saw.

 

Bascially neither JS nor Barker have a great olympic/one design record upon which to make an assessment. They are obviously great sailors. There are so many things that need to come together beyond raw talent to make it in any form of sailing, one design or otherwise e.g. do you have parents that could take you on the road to get to events when your are 12-18? if not, you're probably not going to the olympics.

 

It has been interesting to see who Ainslie and JS have complemented coming away from the oracle experience i.e. I have seen complementary comments from Ben about Tom Slingsby, but not many about JS. Also when people ask about what was changed on the boat, JS always rightly talks about JK coming off the boat and JK doing this for the team, but then under sells the impact that Ben had. .....now obviously I am a brit and so I'm going to get jumped on now for over selling Ben's impact....but I suspect that ben saw through JS. This paragraph is supposition but have others had that sense?

 

 

 

 

 

While it is never good to let facts get in the way of a good sledging, let's look at one of the critical areas where JS and DB could be compared, where they were in total control, namely the starts. There were 19 races, plus 3 more starts where the races were later abandoned, making 22 competitive starts in total. If we take getting to the first mark in the lead as the best indicator of the start (which is all I would argue is important), DB and JS actually shared the honours, 11 starts each. If you look at the 19 races, JS just edged it with 10 vs 9 by DB. Even if you look at things from when it was 8-1, there were actually 10 starts (one race didn't finish) and each won 5 of them. I think that was pretty impressive from DB, seeing that by then OR turned and accelerated better.

 

Comparing the 2 guys in something other than the AC, I have had the pleasure of racing against both in A Class cats. Yes, I know its not the AC, but there were some of the best cat sailors in the world racing. The time DB showed up, he had not sailed A's (I don't think he had sailed cats either) until a month before the event. He also said he hadn't trapezed for as long as he could remember, yet for somebody with such little experience, he won more than half the starts and led at the top mark more than half the races, a feat I haven't even seen Glenn Ashby manage either then or since. Sure, he wasn't as good downhill (he was also on the heavy side) which meant he finished 5th overall, but everybody who saw it was seriously impressed. With all due respects to JS, it was a far better performance than I have seen from him, even though JS had far more A and other cat experience. Today, if I had to bet on one vs the other in A's, my money would be in DB.

 

Then you add to that the performances of DB in classes like the TP52 (which he dominated), or even the AC45's when ETNZ were taking them seriously. Until ETNZ changed their focus and only arrived at the ACWS events at the last minute and stopped AC45 training, they DB dominated JS.

 

To be honest, I would be delighted to have either on my team and would find it very hard to choose between them. Ultimately, they are only as good as the team around them but all this smack down talk about DB shows a total lack of understanding of our sport and just how good he is.

 

I guess I should have known better than to feed the troll, but I felt it needed to be said.

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AC.... I am an Aussie, I don't really careI still think that something Oracle did to improve wasn't quite right... They became too stable on the foils too quickly

All they did was get their design and foil control right. Read the explanation given above that I agree with. It explains what they did and want ETNZ failed to do.
The explanation are just words on a screen...What I saw on the TV showed a MASSIVE improvement in stability.... Such control is not achieved overnight IHMO.Something just doesn't seem right, that is my opinion and the last time I checked I am entitled to have one.
I also defend your right to be stupid.

Thanks aldo, hope you have a great day too

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AC.... I am an Aussie, I don't really care

I still think that something Oracle did to improve wasn't quite right... They became too stable on the foils too quickly

All they did was get their design and foil control right. Read the explanation given above that I agree with. It explains what they did and want ETNZ failed to do.

The explanation are just words on a screen...

 

What I saw on the TV showed a MASSIVE improvement in stability.... Such control is not achieved overnight IHMO.

 

Something just doesn't seem right, that is my opinion and the last time I checked I am entitled to have one.

 

Rushman, go back and watch race 1 over again. The boats were overlapped around the first leeward mark. Their was NO improvement in stability, and stability didn't win the cup. What you saw was Oracle struggling with the tacking, the more tacks they did the more they lost. Downwind, where stability is a problem, the boats were always very close, maybe even an edge to Oracle from the beginning.

 

 

As the series went on, Oracle simply improved their technique and fine tuned their wing, aero, and appendages. As the series dragged on, Oracle got stronger and stronger. What you witnessed was a design that was under potential in the beginning and reaching its potential by the end.

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In summary

 

OTUSA went into the final with a boat sailing at a lot less than 100% capacity but improved by changing the set up

 

ETNZ went into the final at almost 100% capacity and couldn't find the same increase that OTUSA did during the final as they had reached their design potential

 

So therefore GD and DB are chokers, and RC and JS are better.

 

If you take into account that OTUSA were running a two boat program, had access to the performances of the challengers during the LV and knew what level of performance would be required then I suggest the RC and JS should feel themselves lucky to have won at all.

 

The AC will return, hopefully TNZ or Team Aus will win next time (closer for me to get to for AC36) but whatever happens I suggest we will all be watching it and over analyzing it on a forum somewhere.

 

Unless AC is a director of ETNZ or becomes Prime Minister of NZ, GD and DB will be involved if they want to be.

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If you go back and compare ET's performance at the end of the LV and what they were accomplishing (especially upwind) against OR, they showed a vast improvement. I think we tend downplay the NZ improvement curve, its just that it didn't quite keep up with what OR pulled off. The people here who fail to realize how all the teams including OR improved and choose to attribute the OR progress to voodoo science are ignorant.

If OR had raced against ET in LV and had a chance to begin their comparative learning curve earlier they would have whitewashed the Newzealanders in the final.

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While it is never good to let facts get in the way of a good sledging, let's look at one of the critical areas where JS and DB could be compared, where they were in total control, namely the starts. There were 19 races, plus 3 more starts where the races were later abandoned, making 22 competitive starts in total. If we take getting to the first mark in the lead as the best indicator of the start (which is all I would argue is important), DB and JS actually shared the honours, 11 starts each. If you look at the 19 races, JS just edged it with 10 vs 9 by DB. Even if you look at things from when it was 8-1, there were actually 10 starts (one race didn't finish) and each won 5 of them. I think that was pretty impressive from DB, seeing that by then OR turned and accelerated better.

 

Comparing the 2 guys in something other than the AC, I have had the pleasure of racing against both in A Class cats. Yes, I know its not the AC, but there were some of the best cat sailors in the world racing. The time DB showed up, he had not sailed A's (I don't think he had sailed cats either) until a month before the event. He also said he hadn't trapezed for as long as he could remember, yet for somebody with such little experience, he won more than half the starts and led at the top mark more than half the races, a feat I haven't even seen Glenn Ashby manage either then or since. Sure, he wasn't as good downhill (he was also on the heavy side) which meant he finished 5th overall, but everybody who saw it was seriously impressed. With all due respects to JS, it was a far better performance than I have seen from him, even though JS had far more A and other cat experience. Today, if I had to bet on one vs the other in A's, my money would be in DB.

 

Then you add to that the performances of DB in classes like the TP52 (which he dominated), or even the AC45's when ETNZ were taking them seriously. Until ETNZ changed their focus and only arrived at the ACWS events at the last minute and stopped AC45 training, they DB dominated JS.

 

To be honest, I would be delighted to have either on my team and would find it very hard to choose between them. Ultimately, they are only as good as the team around them but all this smack down talk about DB shows a total lack of understanding of our sport and just how good he is.

 

I guess I should have known better than to feed the troll, but I felt it needed to be said.

thank you for writing that up. JS did extraordinarily well in the A class with apparently little experience. Then DB did even better a year later.

 

Going forward though - wonder whether foiling or cat ability more important. I guess an AC helm needs to be best at both.

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If you go back and compare ET's performance at the end of the LV and what they were accomplishing (especially upwind) against OR, they showed a vast improvement. I think we tend downplay the NZ improvement curve, its just that it didn't quite keep up with what OR pulled off. The people here who fail to realize how all the teams including OR improved and choose to attribute the OR progress to voodoo science are ignorant.

If OR had raced against ET in LV and had a chance to begin their comparative learning curve earlier they would have whitewashed the Newzealanders in the final.

 

If OR would have been in the LVC and sailing against ETNZ it is a big chance that they would not have made it to the AC at all.

 

Then on the other hand. If they had been in the LVC and made it to the AC it is also a big chance that they would not have been in a 1-8 position. They would have be much more up to speed from the start of the AC and would not be smashed by ETNZ as they were in the beginning of the AC.

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Funny how Dalton predicts the cost of the next campaign without knowing what and where they are sailing.

 

This is a classic example of his stupidity.

 

Actually that's a classic example of your stupidity. Winning the AC will always be about "How much should we spend.", if the sailed it in Moths someone would spend $100m to win it. Heck if they sailed it in Hobies they'd spend that much.

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