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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Wess

What happened to the foiling Laser/Torch from PSA?

100 posts in this topic

The links I was aware of are dead and we never heard anything more of this.

 

Did any sell, is it real, or was this another tactic in the Laser court case?

 

Not bashing. Am interested to see how its priced if its real and what availability is.

 

Regards,

 

Wess

 

 

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Thank you. Sent them an inquiry. Looks to be real on the face of it.

 

Has anyone gone and got one and used it?

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Has anyone gone and got one and used it?

.

 

...when pigs fly!

 

.........oh,wait a minute! :mellow:

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While cool, it's like putting $5k worth of rims and tires on a Nissan sentra-

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The product is very well done by people who know what they are doing. I suspect that the performance is limited by the Laser, not having much righting moment and having a very poor rig. It looks like the basic components might be adaptable to other platforms, if the centreboard case insert was changed to suit. It may be worth a query with them if you are interested.

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$5k is a big ask. If they cut $3k off that price, most would still balk, but they would reach a critical mass. At $1k-$1500 pricepoint, they would get every single laser (mine included) that has been sitting in a backyard or garage unused for decades back out on the water. They might have to eat some of that cost at the beginning, but they could sell a shit ton of these things and easily offset their tooling costs, which I have no doubt are substantial to them.

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despite the price the upwind aspect is not 'publically known'

 

i suspect the boat is displacement upwind

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I don't know about that. It wouldn't surprise me that the boat could foil just fine upwind, you would just need to bear off to get foiling and then head up. I think I saw a video a while back of it doing just that actually.

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.

link

 

maybe with a test boat 'pointng' ie doing actual upwind vmgs?

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$5000 is what it costs to design, manufacture, and market. I doubt there is very much margin to mess with. They have a big investment to recover.

By comparison a set of full carbon Mach 2 foils without tiller, wand and linkages cost about $A6700. They have been available for some time but AFIK no one has tried to put them on anything but a moth. So maybe all the (non Moth) internet foil fanatics do not really sail at all.

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$5k is a big ask. If they cut $3k off that price, most would still balk, but they would reach a critical mass. At $1k-$1500 pricepoint, they would get every single laser (mine included) that has been sitting in a backyard or garage unused for decades back out on the water. They might have to eat some of that cost at the beginning, but they could sell a shit ton of these things and easily offset their tooling costs, which I have no doubt are substantial to them.

 

I dunno, I haven't heard a single Laser sailor mention the boat. Mind you, I'm not sailing the Laser much at the moment - but if Laser sailors were into searing speed and cutting edge technology they wouldn't have bought a Laser in the first place.

 

The one brief sail that I had on a foiling Moth seemed to underline that (to me at least) foiling per se is fun but not all that amazing. Foiling at the speed the incredibly efficient Moth design achieves is a different story. I'm coming at it from my own angle (ie if I want to go fast and fly I'll grab a board) but I'm with those who say that for foiling, the Moth may offer a far superior package.

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$5000 is what it costs to design, manufacture, and market. I doubt there is very much margin to mess with. They have a big investment to recover.

By comparison a set of full carbon Mach 2 foils without tiller, wand and linkages cost about $A6700. They have been available for some time but AFIK no one has tried to put them on anything but a moth. So maybe all the (non Moth) internet foil fanatics do not really sail at all.

 

But it still seems expensive compared to the high modulus carbon Mach 2 parts.

 

I expect the thought process is something like: if I drop $5k on a set of foils, I don't have a Laser anymore so might as well also spend $3.5k on a mast, boom and sail so it can make full use of the foils. But then the hull is too heavy and the wrong shape, so might as well replace that with a light, skinny hull with wings … starting to sound a lot like your dream 14' foiler. :-)

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I think Rob crystalized my thoughts exactly. There is no question in my mind that they have a large investment to recover, but the fact is that they have designed something (extruded AL) that they could legitimately sell for a lot less that $5k if were willing to east some losses up front. If shiny moth gear costs just a little bit more, then they have a problem, because as Rob points out, I might as well just get a moth and get in on that action, OR, I might just use a lot less than $5k to make my own foiling package for joyriding. I know that's not practical for a lot of people obviously, but like I said, if they got the price point right, they could sell lots and lots of these things. Chris, you mention that people you know haven't mentioned anything about these foils... my experience has been the opposite. A lot of sailor friends of mine have brought up these foils and how expensive they are and how they would totally buy them they were less expensive. Their motivations are similar to mine in that they can go for some joyrides and just have some fun. If enough people get them... even better! Then we could have some racing taking place. If the developers manage to gain some critical mass at the price they have now, I think that would be great; I would be happy to see them succeed as they've come up a great addition to one of the most ubiquitous boats on the planet.

 

I tried checking to see what RS600 foiling kits cost and I couldn't find anything on their site. Anyone know what they charge(d) for them, or were they never really for sale?

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Aluminium was probably a bad choice. A cheap material but expensive tooling. As many classes are finding that Carbon spars are better value than Alloy, so it would appear that Carbon is better material for foils and other high stressed structures. More so considering required finish for foils and durability.

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I have heard they are not answering e-mails lately. Anyone able to get through?

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From what I understand they have used existing foil sections that are used for the rudders on 29ers etc, those dies have been in existence for years, so can't see what tooling costs there would be.

 

Maybe the whole idea was just a publicity stunt and there was no real plan to sell in quantity. If so they have set the price at the right point.

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If they had a set for a Laser 2 @ 2 grand, I would order instantly. $5K ain't fair to my kid's college fund just to indulge myself....perhaps if they can't make a viable business they will sell the designs/tooling to others who might..... there can't be more than a few hundred bucks of material in them...

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Clean you have just been to Aust and will have seen that almost everyone is on holidays from Christmas to the end of January. You might get an answer in a week or two.

 

I doubt the horizontal lifting foils are from the symmetrical 29er section but the verticals might be.

 

All those who think this kit is expensive obviously have never been involved in designing, making, producing and marketing of anything as complex. There would be near 20 individual components all of which have to be made to tight tolerances and then assembled in a manner that any mug can use it without stuffing things up.

 

I am not defending the gear or the concept, I doubt the foils will make a Laser sail any faster around a course, but I do know the two people involved and know the effort and time that they have put into the project. They are genuine enthusiasts who are not trying to rip off anyone, or become rich as a result. But they have invested considerable money in it and would prefer to get some back.

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They are genuine enthusiasts who are not trying to rip off anyone, or become rich as a result. But they have invested considerable money in it and would prefer to get some back.

.

 

....the message is clear--there's a lot of laser-punters who'd get a set if the up front bux weren't so high.

..........maybe your friends would do better if they re-couped their investment over a broader span of units

 

.........or perhaps there -is- some flow happening,,,and they'd prefer to keep a steady trickle rather than a tsunami,,,everything's a balance I guess.

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Not sure you can suddenly mass produce without investing even more money,the product IMHO is a bit rubbish anyway so the only reason why people would buy it is to race big fleets, just like the laser. A bit of a catch 22 really. Maybe they just need to sell them with new boats package so you don't need the standard foils too.

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....the message is clear--there's a lot of laser-punters who'd get a set if the up front bux weren't so high.

..........maybe your friends would do better if they re-couped their investment over a broader span of units

It probably means that there are a lot of laser punters who bought cheap, low quality, low performance boats, and hence are most unlikely to spend more money for any higher performance, either in another boat or bolt on accessory. After all there seems to be a lot of grumbling about the cost of laser sails when they are about half of what we pay for a reasonable moth sail.

 

But the Laser market is gigantic and there just might be enough people with interest and cash to make the enterprise viable.

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$5000 is what it costs to design, manufacture, and market. I doubt there is very much margin to mess with. They have a big investment to recover.

By comparison a set of full carbon Mach 2 foils without tiller, wand and linkages cost about $A6700. They have been available for some time but AFIK no one has tried to put them on anything but a moth. So maybe all the (non Moth) internet foil fanatics do not really sail at all.

This is the mistake with a market like the Laser. it makes sense in traditional dinghy markets where your appeal is raher limited so you have to start amortizing design and production costs right away. In other words, its essentially custom production - like a custom built house or custom built software.

 

But OTOH, if you are expecting a mass market appeal, you look only to recoup your production costs and an ROI on the production costs. Your desiign costs are amortized out over the full production run. So even if they were say $100k, over a production run of 10,000 units that works out to be $10/unit. Pittance.

 

And your tooling costs - basically you assume you will run your tool until it fails and needs replacing. These are AL foils - your amortized per unit costs are arouund $3-$5 per unit for the mold

 

So assuming a production run of say 10,000 units (that's 5% market penetration of all boats sold) If you sold them for $200 above cost of mfg you would generate $2 million in revenue above direct costs. Even if that's over 5 years that's still $400,000 per year of income, you can easily eat $100k of dev costs in that.

 

So figure that your stamping costs you $100/unit. Assembly maybe another $100 and miscellaneouus parts around $200 - and you have 3 components - thats a very rough SWAG cost of mfg of $600. $200 margin - is $800.

 

Given that a laser SAIL is $600.... you up that to $950+ shipping. And you really get a huge volume.

 

 

 

Now there is a gotcha in this. You cannot bootstrap this. you need an investor. and that investor is going to take 50% of your profits

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Wow, just wanted to track down a contact, not spawn all form of debate. SA seems so angry these days. I happen to have a race Laser and a 2nd beater Laser at home. Not sugesting anyone including me is going to go racing with these things. My interest was to see if they represented a simple, affordable way to go foiling. Earlier on-line unvalidated comments re pricing suggested the kit would be about the price ($5000 USD) of a used Moth in my area. Hard to justify it for giggles and shits if that was true, though the Moth has a pretty steep learning curve that the Laser version might not. Of course a used Moth has resale value while I doubt the foil kit for a Laser does. Anyway, just wanted to find out if they are real and what the real costs would be and if changes were needed to the boat that would mean it could not easily go back to OD status (they claim no issue but did not offer specifics).

I have heard they are not answering e-mails lately. Anyone able to get through?

Not going to reproduce the emails here but yes they did respond to my initial email, answering some but not all (including price) questions. They seem to claim they will be ready to be selling unit is SH in "mid-January 2014" but not in NH for a few months (March, 2014). They also asked some questions (where do you sail, what do you sail) which I answered and I asked them pricing again. Got no response to that one.

 

Feels like a start-up trying to find their way...

 

Wess

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Wow, just wanted to track down a contact, not spawn all form of debate. SA seems so angry these days. ................

Wess

.

 

...how does the saying go?......''opinions are like A-holes,,everyone's got one!''

 

.....I'd think the opinions expressed would turn out to be informative to the guys..........or not.

 

.....not so much 'angry' as 'tough crowd' as usual,,

,,something even the first sponsor of dinghy anarchy was warned about! ;)

 

 

.....it should be noted that the comment ,,,,,''I'd buy one if........''.,,,is often BS :mellow:

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I have the means and motive to buy......@ 2K, not $5K. That's really a wider gulf than it may appear....like rents and salaries, the distribution tails off mighty fast as you get near the top, and I expect the same for items of recreational equipment...

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I do also, and have the Hansen sail to use it with, but 2k deff as much as I'd pay also.

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Clean you have just been to Aust and will have seen that almost everyone is on holidays from Christmas to the end of January. You might get an answer in a week or two.I doubt the horizontal lifting foils are from the symmetrical 29er section but the verticals might be.All those who think this kit is expensive obviously have never been involved in designing, making, producing and marketing of anything as complex. There would be near 20 individual components all of which have to be made to tight tolerances and then assembled in a manner that any mug can use it without stuffing things up.I am not defending the gear or the concept, I doubt the foils will make a Laser sail any faster around a course, but I do know the two people involved and know the effort and time that they have put into the project. They are genuine enthusiasts who are not trying to rip off anyone, or become rich as a result. But they have invested considerable money in it and would prefer to get some back.

That's not he way real life works though. The price of an item has to b based on what the market will bear, not cost + 10%. If the bearable price is less than the cost then it isn't a viable product.

If this forum is representative (big if) 2k appears to be what folk are realistically willing to stump up.

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I unnerstand all concepts and pricing, have the receipts for my AC,18,000 dollars to build in 1997! But I also know what it's worth now and what I can sell it for. Think these will be great toys and fun, but may not be affordable enough to warrant purchase. The Hansen sail was worth every bit of the $750 I paid and made the turd so much better to sail, hope a compromise will be reached and I'll have some.

 

Looking at the new C12 IC with kite for 25k, almost seems cheap!

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I have not doubt it costs money to make equipment like this, and I certainly understand the need of the manufacturers to make a profit. However if the price as is being floated around, I would seriously question the market for something like this that costs as much as the boat. If the price were $2000, I would hem and haw but most likely buy one.

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Maybe AIG will underwrite a policy for me foiling on White Rock Lake. Insuring those mortgage derivatives sure worked out well for them.

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$5000 is what it costs to design, manufacture, and market. I doubt there is very much margin to mess with. They have a big investment to recover.

By comparison a set of full carbon Mach 2 foils without tiller, wand and linkages cost about $A6700. They have been available for some time but AFIK no one has tried to put them on anything but a moth. So maybe all the (non Moth) internet foil fanatics do not really sail at all.

This is the mistake with a market like the Laser. it makes sense in traditional dinghy markets where your appeal is raher limited so you have to start amortizing design and production costs right away. In other words, its essentially custom production - like a custom built house or custom built software.

 

But OTOH, if you are expecting a mass market appeal, you look only to recoup your production costs and an ROI on the production costs. Your desiign costs are amortized out over the full production run. So even if they were say $100k, over a production run of 10,000 units that works out to be $10/unit. Pittance.

 

And your tooling costs - basically you assume you will run your tool until it fails and needs replacing. These are AL foils - your amortized per unit costs are arouund $3-$5 per unit for the mold

 

So assuming a production run of say 10,000 units (that's 5% market penetration of all boats sold) If you sold them for $200 above cost of mfg you would generate $2 million in revenue above direct costs. Even if that's over 5 years that's still $400,000 per year of income, you can easily eat $100k of dev costs in that.

 

So figure that your stamping costs you $100/unit. Assembly maybe another $100 and miscellaneouus parts around $200 - and you have 3 components - thats a very rough SWAG cost of mfg of $600. $200 margin - is $800.

 

Given that a laser SAIL is $600.... you up that to $950+ shipping. And you really get a huge volume.

 

 

 

Now there is a gotcha in this. You cannot bootstrap this. you need an investor. and that investor is going to take 50% of your profits

 

Absolutely!! This could be a smashing success, but only if some entity with large pursestrings bankrolls the initial losses, until economy of scale makes it otherwise profitable...

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Maybe AIG will underwrite a policy for me foiling on White Rock Lake. Insuring those mortgage derivatives sure worked out well for them.

 

Isn't it rather shallow there? I mean White Rock Lake, but I guess AIG too.

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This could be a smashing success, but only if some entity with large pursestrings bankrolls the initial losses, until economy of scale makes it otherwise profitable...

.

 

....in my books,,I'd certainly understand if they need to keep production small,,price high to start

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but this is all getting to be -too much speculation- as usual :mellow:

 

 

..........it'd be great if the 'Glidefree' guys chimed in 'bout now,,,,take advantage of the interest and curiosity....

 

.....or would they need to 'buy-an-ad' :unsure::rolleyes:

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This could be a smashing success, but only if some entity with large pursestrings bankrolls the initial losses, until economy of scale makes it otherwise profitable...

.

 

....in my books,,I'd certainly understand if they need to keep production small,,price high to start

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but this is all getting to be -too much speculation- as usual :mellow:

 

 

..........it'd be great if the 'Glidefree' guys chimed in 'bout now,,,,take advantage of the interest and curiosity....

 

.....or would they need to 'buy-an-ad' :unsure::rolleyes:

Well we could always have Dougie chime in... The man who is "ready to foil" in every way except

The skills

the physical conditiioning

the cash to buy any sort of boat

The willingness to learn what he doesn't know

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This could be a smashing success, but only if some entity with large pursestrings bankrolls the initial losses, until economy of scale makes it otherwise profitable...

.

 

....in my books,,I'd certainly understand if they need to keep production small,,price high to start

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but this is all getting to be -too much speculation- as usual :mellow:

 

 

..........it'd be great if the 'Glidefree' guys chimed in 'bout now,,,,take advantage of the interest and curiosity....

 

.....or would they need to 'buy-an-ad' :unsure::rolleyes:

Well we could always have Dougie chime in... The man who is "ready to foil" in every way except

The skills

the physical conditiioning

the cash to buy any sort of boat

The willingness to learn what he doesn't know

 

Why the ginormous hard-on for DL, BB??

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Maybe AIG will underwrite a policy for me foiling on White Rock Lake. Insuring those mortgage derivatives sure worked out well for them.

Too Fast to Fail !

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I have contact with the manufacturer of this product and can get you any answers you need. Sorry I haven't seen this thread till now. I will be in Contact with PSA this week on the Catamaran side of the business but can get Laser , Glide Free info as well. Please contact me by PM with any questions.

 

The Web Pages were down for a rework for a while.

 

Sorry for the inconvience.

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Does anyone know if PSA intend to honour the usual (fit for purpose) warranty obligations if a Laser being used in the foiling configuration suffers hull or spar failure?

 

Plenty of people on this thread have questioned whether the transom and centreboard cases are up to the additional loads and it's hard enough to keep a Radial bottom section straight, even in non foiling mode.

 

I can't imagine any Laser dealer would be very interested in offering a warranty on a boat used in foiling configuration.

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Maybe AIG will underwrite a policy for me foiling on White Rock Lake. Insuring those mortgage derivatives sure worked out well for them.

 

Isn't it rather shallow there? I mean White Rock Lake, but I guess AIG too.

 

Plenty deep enough thanks to yard sprinklers. It's just full of tree trunks and debris from the creeks that feeds into it. Occasionally a car.

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Does anyone know if PSA intend to honour the usual (fit for purpose) warranty obligations if a Laser being used in the foiling configuration suffers hull or spar failure?

 

Plenty of people on this thread have questioned whether the transom and centreboard cases are up to the additional loads and it's hard enough to keep a Radial bottom section straight, even in non foiling mode.

 

I can't imagine any Laser dealer would be very interested in offering a warranty on a boat used in foiling configuration.

 

I was told the PSA boats are warrantied either used as foiling or standard use mode. I will try to find the direct quote for you.

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GlideFree ROTFLMAO!!! doesn't Rastegar know how much it sounds like a product that should be advertising in Hustler or Playboy?

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…doesn't Rastegar…

I thought this was related to Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA), the home page has a .au domain. Nothing to do with Rastegar or LaserPerformance (LP).

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Price aside for the timebeing, this Laser package has tremendous potential-and not just on the Laser. It would be interesting to see mod kits for various other boats down the line. The guys behind this are original pioneers of small monohull foiling-they know what they're doing and they've come up with what looks like an excellent product. I wish them the best of luck!

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other than that Mrs Lincoln how was the play?

 

Seriously Dougie - "pricing aside" has always been the issue. And it does not have "tremendous potential" outside of the Laser - precisely because tuning a set of foils for the right AoA and lift etc isn't ttrivial. YOU of all people - who never fucking got your full sized boat to do anything other than pogo around like a sick Kangaroo ought know better than this.

 

You don't know shite about the pioneers behind this so don't taint them by being a "fan". Just shut the fuck up.

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…doesn't Rastegar…

I thought this was related to Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA), the home page has a .au domain. Nothing to do with Rastegar or LaserPerformance (LP).

 

PSA is no longer involved with the program. Glide Free is doing the rest of the product Sorry but my information line is cut off.

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PSA is no longer involved with the program.

 

Yes, got that, just making a point.

 

Seems to me if Glide Free is serious they'll start turning up at some big Laser regattas and offer free rides, maybe sponsor a "Dash for Cash" with supplied gear, maybe hold a short race program for Glide Free Lasers, perhaps make the foils available to hire for trial events, etc.

 

Detailed pics on the site show a lot of engineering has gone into the product—a flip–up rudder where the horizontal stays horizontal whether up or down is a cool feature, as is the retractable centerboard. Clearly a lot of thought has gone into usability, a pity the marketing seems to be lagging (Glide Free—really?).

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.

 

....Wet'nWILD,,,glide free puts you on TOP!! :):P

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GlideFree ROTFLMAO!!! doesn't Rastegar know how much it sounds like a product that should be advertising in Hustler or Playboy?

 

Have to agree with you on this. Sounds like a competitor of "Astro-Glide", or some other K-Y Jelly alternative... :D:lol:

 

But, if they work; it would be really cool if some financier gets behind it, and produces them at an affordable cost. It would surely be a money loser in the beginning, but a home run in the end.... :)

 

Comparing this to a foiling Moth is surely apples and oranges..

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GlideFree ROTFLMAO!!! doesn't Rastegar know how much it sounds like a product that should be advertising in Hustler or Playboy?

 

Have to agree with you on this. Sounds like a competitor of "Astro-Glide", or some other K-Y Jelly alternative... :D:lol:

 

But, if they work; it would be really cool if some financier gets behind it, and produces them at an affordable cost. It would surely be a money loser in the beginning, but a home run in the end.... :)

 

Comparing this to a foiling Moth is surely apples and oranges..

.

 

..certainly is 'apples to oranges',,,

,,,but yes if a ~$2G could be managed somehow,,,all the elements would be right for....dare I say,,,,

 

...................a 'People's Foiler' :o

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Does anyone know if PSA intend to honour the usual (fit for purpose) warranty obligations if a Laser being used in the foiling configuration suffers hull or spar failure?

 

Plenty of people on this thread have questioned whether the transom and centreboard cases are up to the additional loads and it's hard enough to keep a Radial bottom section straight, even in non foiling mode.

 

I can't imagine any Laser dealer would be very interested in offering a warranty on a boat used in foiling configuration.

 

I was told the PSA boats are warrantied either used as foiling or standard use mode. I will try to find the direct quote for you.

 

The wording of PSA's warranty policy (on their website) suggests that they probably wouldn't accept a warranty claim for failure sustained in foiling mode.

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Wait I got it. To make sailing more appealing to an Olympic TV audience, the ISAF will pressure the ILCA to adopt the foiling hardware as class standard.

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Anything new on this??

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GFD is working on lining up a number of dealers in the US to have foils and parts on hand this summer.

 

I believe some publicity and press for that announcement is coming in a few weeks.

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Price now A$4500

 

 

 

$4,226.85 USD according to XE.com. Plus shipping, duty, state tax???

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Price now A$4500

 

 

 

$4,226.85 USD according to XE.com. Plus shipping, duty, state tax???

.

.....I hear they've hired extra front-end staff to handle the rush! :mellow:

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Price now A$4500

 

 

 

$4,226.85 USD according to XE.com. Plus shipping, duty, state tax???

.

.....I hear they've hired extra front-end staff to handle the rush! :mellow:

 

 

Yes, but the price is bound to come down when economies of scale kick-in, so long as they don't go bust first. At some price point, having exclusive rights to North America could be fruitful..

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Looks like a complete folly and waste of money.

 

And I'm still in at $2k.

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The Director, Peter rang me up yesterday afternoon, after we had exchanged a few emails. You can buy direct from them, and I do hope they succeed and the cost comes down. Wishing them the best.

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Yes, the article detailed all the effort expended, hard work done cleverly deserves recompense. Just alot of cabbage for a $1400 beater.

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The guy who is putting wingsails on Lasers here has a foiling setup that he got from some Aussie. I assume there is only one of these in the world?

 

We are using a heavy, old Laser and the pilot was a heavy, old sailor. Wind 10-12 with the occasional (too brief) puff of 15. It was very close to getting out of the water a couple of times. Haven't looked at my pics yet, but I think one caught it with the front half of the boat out.

 

I think we need a lighter boat, lighter pilot, and a bit more wind. We were using a soft sail today. Still don't know enough about the foils to try using one of the wingsails.

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Eh, pics not so good...

 

The gang with their new toy

 

torch-foil.jpg

 

He had about half the boat out on a puff, but I was too late on the shutter.

 

torch-almost-lifts.jpg

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Thanks Tom Ray. I would like some more pics if you get a chance, wing sails and foiling are the only interesting areas of sailing and its great to see someone out there actually DOING it.

It would be great if the haters who seem to clog up most threads on SA would find another source of amusement. These forums where a great resource once but now....just to much crap to wade through

Darryn

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I have some more pics on my phone.

 

Some older pics of wings on Lasers. That was the first time I tried it.

 

lap-two-upwind.jpg

 

I broke it.

 

tilted-wing.jpg

 

Oops. The new ones are better. Those had really awkward controls. And a really awkward controller!

 

We also put his wings on a Hobie Bravo and a Sunfish but those early efforts were not nearly as good.

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Assembly of the main foil:

 

torch-foil-assembly.jpg

 

That black part with the claw-looking end is a follower that adjusts foil angle. If you get it up on the foil.

 

Which he did not...

 

torch-heeling.jpg

 

In that one we are close-reaching pretty high upwind in a search for enough apparent wind for liftoff. It wasn't happening. I didn't bring a GPS but have measured the speed of my Adventure Island enough times to know we were mostly going 5-6 knots, occasionally 7. There was not enough wind to go any faster unless surfing. Older Adventure Islands like mine are reliably reported to achieve a sustained 10 knots in flat water but I've never done it. I managed 9 one day and was pretty sure something would break if I tried to go faster. I think we need one of those days to make that Laser fly.

 

Does anyone know how fast the boat is typically going before it will fly?

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Some proper set up would help, like more vang and keeping the boat absolutely flat or even healing slightly to weather. A poor sailor will struggle to get even the most sorted Mach 2 in the world to fly.

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LOL! You can't imagine how much fun I'm going to have with the "poor sailor" comment.

 

We discussed the need to heel to weather. In that position, the foils were creating lift downwind. That would not have been good if we actually wanted to go the way the boat was heading.

 

But if you're hiking out and heeling the boat to weather and it has not yet lifted off (or has just landed) it seems to me you're going to be swimming. Or at least dragging your ass through the water enough to slow the boat. How does that work?

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It seems it would be soooooo much easier to build a simple platform than use a whole Laser

 

It might be funbro splash a ten kilo laser hull and deck in thin lightweight material so it would look like a laser but lift easily

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I was talking to a guy today who might do exactly that, Gouv, but I think I distracted him with the idea of making our new little power cat fly on foils first. In that case, just to get up above small chop.

 

A carbon laser splash would be an entertaining project...

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I think nine oz cloth over a 6mm foam core would be great and weigh about half a real laser

 

Nine oz cloth might be about 250 gm / square meter

 

Polyester would be fine

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LOL! You can't imagine how much fun I'm going to have with the "poor sailor" comment.

 

We discussed the need to heel to weather. In that position, the foils were creating lift downwind. That would not have been good if we actually wanted to go the way the boat was heading.

 

But if you're hiking out and heeling the boat to weather and it has not yet lifted off (or has just landed) it seems to me you're going to be swimming. Or at least dragging your ass through the water enough to slow the boat. How does that work?

Sorry, but nothing about that pic implies that the boat is being well sailed.

It might be worthwhile taping some padding onto the outer edge of the deck in the hiking position especially if you are not using hiking pants and a tight toestrap which, if you are fit and strong enough to hike straight legged, will keep your bum out of the water!

Are you using a clew tie down as I can't make one out in the pic?

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Tom Ray

 

I don't mean to be a kill joy, but Major Tom makes some valid points. In the spirit of being positive and getting you foiling........

 

You need significantly more vang or you won't stand a chance. There is far too much twist. Next, anything other than bolt upright makes it close to impossible to foil. In reality, with the Laser, windward heel isn't really possible but if you look at the photos of those foils being used, the boat is always dead upright. With the vang properly set and non the right point of sailing, it will mean hiking seriously hard to get it up on the foils.

 

Good luck and post some pics when you have it sorted.

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I saw a clew tie down line when we put the mast in the boat but I left to launch my boat and didn't see it actually connected. I guess he was using it.

 

The vang line was extremely soft and fuzzy and the hardware very oxidized and dated. He might have been using it for all it was worth for all I know. I could tell it's not worth much.

 

Hiking pants? You may have mistaken us for young racers. I'm the young one and AARP already has me on their radar.

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Hiking pants make sailing a Laser a whole lot more comfortable, the battens in the pants spread the gunnel edge load over a far bigger area of the back of your thighs helping with circulation as well as raising your backside relative to the side deck when hiking with straight legs. It is probably worth adding a few cascades to the vang to increase the overall purchase, it does not need to be class legal for foiling or for fun, life is too short to sail with kit that doesn't work. The clew tie down is essential to get optimum leach tension while still keeping power low down in the sail.

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Hmmm... maybe new pants are in order.

 

I was scolded a long time ago for asking for a throwable cushion when told to plant my bony butt on the rail. They don't carry extra weight. It was an Express 37!

 

I just figured going fast meant you had to adopt an irrational fear of comfort.

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Assembly of the main foil:

 

torch-foil-assembly.jpg

 

That black part with the claw-looking end is a follower that adjusts foil angle. If you get it up on the foil.

 

Which he did not...

 

torch-heeling.jpg

 

In that one we are close-reaching pretty high upwind in a search for enough apparent wind for liftoff. It wasn't happening. I didn't bring a GPS but have measured the speed of my Adventure Island enough times to know we were mostly going 5-6 knots, occasionally 7. There was not enough wind to go any faster unless surfing. Older Adventure Islands like mine are reliably reported to achieve a sustained 10 knots in flat water but I've never done it. I managed 9 one day and was pretty sure something would break if I tried to go faster. I think we need one of those days to make that Laser fly.

 

Does anyone know how fast the boat is typically going before it will fly?

I don't think you will ever get the laser foiling on a close reach. a laser won't plane upwind, let alone foil.

Think boat speed, not apparent wind speed.

Crack off onto a broad reach and get the boat planing, then you might get it on the foils.

Oh, and take some video!!

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Tom, I've got two questions for you.

 

Firstly, would a bigger sail help - like these square tops? http://www.intensitysails.com/insapohesafo.html

 

Secondly, how many watercraft / boats do you currently own?

 

That little square top is cool and I'm sure it helps, but I'm not really the guy to ask. I only have a few hours of Laser sailing in my life, most of it with the wing sail above, which broke. My main qualifications are that I'm here and young enough to do stuff like this. It's a remarkably short list. ;)

 

It's not nice to mock Polynavicular Morbus sufferers. 11 I think, but that counts one that will never see water again.

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It seems it would be soooooo much easier to build a simple platform than use a whole Laser

It might be funbro splash a ten kilo laser hull and deck in thin lightweight material so it would look like a laser but lift easily

If the foils were a 'reasonable' price then it would definitely be worthwhile building a better foiling platform, something like a fat boy moth, you need the wings to get enough righting moment once you are foiling and the apparent wind increases and you don't want too much hull for weight and windage reasons. The problem with all this, is that if you spend to much you will be better off just buying a cheaper foiling moth which will do everything better than a boat using the laser foils.

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It seems it would be soooooo much easier to build a simple platform than use a whole Laser

It might be funbro splash a ten kilo laser hull and deck in thin lightweight material so it would look like a laser but lift easily

If the foils were a 'reasonable' price then it would definitely be worthwhile building a better foiling platform, something like a fat boy moth, you need the wings to get enough righting moment once you are foiling and the apparent wind increases and you don't want too much hull for weight and windage reasons. The problem with all this, is that if you spend to much you will be better off just buying a cheaper foiling moth which will do everything better than a boat using the laser foils.

 

 

The solution to that problem is: old men having fun in retirement don't have to make sense. Or cents.

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Thanks Tom Ray. I would like some more pics if you get a chance, wing sails and foiling are the only interesting areas of sailing and its great to see someone out there actually DOING it.

It would be great if the haters who seem to clog up most threads on SA would find another source of amusement. These forums where a great resource once but now....just to much crap to wade through

Darryn

 

Ding ding, you've won this week's hypocrite prize with a post in which you complain about boats without wings and foils being uninteresting, and then also complain about people who aren't positive.

 

:wacko:

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Tom, I've got two questions for you.

 

Firstly, would a bigger sail help - like these square tops? http://www.intensitysails.com/insapohesafo.html

 

Secondly, how many watercraft / boats do you currently own?

 

Fair question, but the foiler works best with a Radial sail flattened out much higher than in a seahugger, because the reduced aero drag of the smaller sail when foiling matters more than going a few percent faster before taking off.

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Thanks Tom Ray. I would like some more pics if you get a chance, wing sails and foiling are the only interesting areas of sailing and its great to see someone out there actually DOING it.

It would be great if the haters who seem to clog up most threads on SA would find another source of amusement. These forums where a great resource once but now....just to much crap to wade through

Darryn

 

Ding ding, you've won this week's hypocrite prize with a post in which you complain about boats without wings and foils being uninteresting, and then also complain about people who aren't positive.

 

:wacko:

 

Having trouble following your logic trails there Mr Hobiecatter, checked out your other posts, you got smacked down by Ian Farrier no less on the Gunboat thread, same screwy logic, now that's positive and very amusing.

Thanks for the laughs, hope you personally deliver the prize :D

Darryn

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It seems it would be soooooo much easier to build a simple platform than use a whole Laser

It might be funbro splash a ten kilo laser hull and deck in thin lightweight material so it would look like a laser but lift easily

If the foils were a 'reasonable' price then it would definitely be worthwhile building a better foiling platform, something like a fat boy moth, you need the wings to get enough righting moment once you are foiling and the apparent wind increases and you don't want too much hull for weight and windage reasons. The problem with all this, is that if you spend to much you will be better off just buying a cheaper foiling moth which will do everything better than a boat using the laser foils.

 

 

The solution to that problem is: old men having fun in retirement don't have to make sense. Or cents.

 

That is the absolute truth, simple as that, no cents required and having a bit of a laugh :rolleyes:

Darryn

(seems I have attracted a troll, Mr Hobiecatter, so time time for me to exit, stage right)

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Why not build the foil between two struts instead of mounting it through the ctb trunk??

 

Wouldn't that make it easier to have angle adjusting levers coming up through the struts so the height of the foiling craft could be better controlled??

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11 watercraft? Nice! Fill in the details

 

Cowmaran

Hobie adventurer

 

 

& do they still sell those Mylar Square tops for lasers?

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11 watercraft? Nice! Fill in the details

 

Cowmaran

Hobie adventurer

 

 

& do they still sell those Mylar Square tops for lasers?

 

Hah! I wish the Cowmaran were in my fleet, but it belongs to a friend. I'm third in line to buy it.

 

I was counting two Hobie Adventure Islands, though one is my wife's. Also an Ocean Kayak Sprinter and Klepper Aerius Expedition with factory sail kit.

 

The only sailboat in the fleet is a Com-Pac Sun Cat. I've been thinking about acquiring another one, one of the ones from the 1970's that has no keel. Use the bilge board slots to mount foils and put a giant wing on it. Sun Cat Class racing rules allow this.

 

Anyway, the powerboat fleet includes a roll up inflatable, an old 14' jonboat, a really old 12' aluminum skiff, and an old 24' pontoon boat. I also have what are really at this point parts of an old RIB that will never see water again. And I recently inherited my dad's canoe, which I plan to sell.

 

There are a few other boats in my driveway that technically belong to the Community Sailing Center but are probably not worth moving. I suspect those are mine, meaning my problem. It's OK, but for a proper diagnosis of a PN case you do have to count them allllll....

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They snuck out without letting me know. No pics of the flying Laser. :(

 

This report from my friend Dennis on Facebook. Yeah, he writes funny, but he's the best sailor I know.

 

Yes yesterday was the day we first foiled on the Laser On Charlotte Harbor. Didn't get it just out of the water but got it way up. Then I had sound Practice so I had to go but did get it up. Of course the wind got better when boat was put away. You could see the puffs coming and sail like mad to them, bare off a little feel the booster kick in and feel it climb, then it jumps up and is gone. It is a neat feeling that you have to adapt to very quickly as the apparent wind moves forward even more and you trim and it goes higher in the air. At the same time you are now steering with a very light and active tiller that every little movement makes the boat react. At the same time you go to the balancing act of your body hanging over the side and moving it back in just the right amount....

 

(sound practice: he runs the sound board for his wife's church singing group.)

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Hi Alan McIntosh here, I own a sailing and windsurfing school in NZ www.meltemibeachcats.co.nz and www.madloop.co.nz We have been teaching hydrofoil sailing and useing an Assasin Moth , and last week we got two sets of glide free foils in from www.glidefree.com.au and are useing them on our Lasers. These foils are great, already in one week we have done at least 12 Foiling lessons. The boat gets up easily out of the water and goes fast, You can sail it flying up wind, reaching and broad reaching. I totally recomend these foils. There is a video on the glide free website, if you click on the part about MadLoop in New Zealand you will see a video of me on a grey boat and two other people on a red Laser. That was my second time sailing the boat, and the boy sailing the red boat was 14 years old and was his first time. The other guy featured at the beginning of video was in his twenties and was his second flight ever. The reason we wanted these GlideFree foils was so that we could have a boat that any semi skilled normal dinghy sailor, could get out on and could immediately fly without any hassle

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Hi Alan McIntosh here, I own a sailing and windsurfing school in NZ www.meltemibeachcats.co.nz and www.madloop.co.nz We have been teaching hydrofoil sailing and useing an Assasin Moth , and last week we got two sets of glide free foils in from www.glidefree.com.au and are useing them on our Lasers. These foils are great, already in one week we have done at least 12 Foiling lessons. The boat gets up easily out of the water and goes fast, You can sail it flying up wind, reaching and broad reaching. I totally recomend these foils. There is a video on the glide free website, if you click on the part about MadLoop in New Zealand you will see a video of me on a grey boat and two other people on a red Laser. That was my second time sailing the boat, and the boy sailing the red boat was 14 years old and was his first time. The other guy featured at the beginning of video was in his twenties and was his second flight ever. The reason we wanted these GlideFree foils was so that we could have a boat that any semi skilled normal dinghy sailor, could get out on and could immediately fly without any hassle

Hold on a second, a laser won't plane upwind, but it will foil upwind?

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