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MR.CLEAN

New Cubed - First Supermaxi Since Speedboat

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JC, Rossy is/was a sailmaker. Did you read his post?

 

In those two shots of WOX and WOXI the wrinkles are nothing like as bad as the massive hideous ones we saw on Comanche's sea trials back in Newport, which is where this topic started. Wrinkles like the above, we've all seen before and are entirely normal and acceptable.

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Is it just me or can you see more than a little provenance here...

Indeed. Plenty.

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I just got a chance to have a look at the 18's video. Well worth a look. Lots of nice tight shots in close as well as from a distance. Absolutely hard on the breeze judging by the main traveler car in about 10 -12 knots.

 

Main looked shit loads better........ dare I say it, it almost............... looked................. good????????

 

Perhaps a couple of additional intermediate slugs might help with the "granny's undies" effect that is so painful to look at at other times.

 

http://www.news.sail-world.com/Images_of_Sydney_Harbour__Comanche_out_for_a_pre_Hobart_training_run/129705

 

bottom of the page, comanche starts about 6min 30secs into the video.

 

Yeah saw that video and yes what a difference the main looked bloody nice. North Sails President on-board one would suspect the sails would be state of the art.

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Still no news on the missing port board.....was that the thing that went bang on the first sea trials in Sydney a few days ago? No news or no information does raise the question as to why it was not even on the boat on Sunday.

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JC, Rossy is/was a sailmaker. Did you read his post?

 

In those two shots of WOX and WOXI the wrinkles are nothing like as bad as the massive hideous ones we saw on Comanche's sea trials back in Newport, which is where this topic started. Wrinkles like the above, we've all seen before and are entirely normal and acceptable.

 

Yes read that, I'll rephrase, is anyone on this thread building sails in that membrane.

Why would you expect the main to fit when the skipper is VP of Norths and boat is most high tech mono ever build? A lot of farking arm chair experts in this threat...I would find it hard believe that someone got the luff measure wrong on this.

 

 

Still no news on the missing port board.....was that the thing that went bang on the first sea trials in Sydney a few days ago? No news or no information does raise the question as to why it was not even on the boat on Sunday.

 

Thought the bang was a loaded sheet/halyard, had guys up the mast following that(?)

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JC, Rossy is/was a sailmaker. Did you read his post?

 

In those two shots of WOX and WOXI the wrinkles are nothing like as bad as the massive hideous ones we saw on Comanche's sea trials back in Newport, which is where this topic started. Wrinkles like the above, we've all seen before and are entirely normal and acceptable.

 

Yes read that, I'll rephrase, is anyone on this thread building sails in that membrane.

Why would you expect the main to fit when the skipper is VP of Norths and boat is most high tech mono ever build? A lot of farking arm chair experts in this threat...I would find it hard believe that someone got the luff measure wrong on this.

 

 

>Still no news on the missing port board.....was that the thing that went bang on the first sea trials in Sydney a few days ago? No news or no information does raise the question as to why it was not even on the boat on Sunday.

 

Thought the bang was a loaded sheet/halyard, had guys up the mast following that(?)

 

Yes everybody knows that Ken Read is the president of norths. But does that make him and the boat immune to fuck ups. No, certainly not. If this last week has taught us anything it's that even the very elite in this sport still fuck up on occasion, and sometimes the results can be catastrophic.

 

The mail I have on the missing board is that they were "testing". Sounds like a party line to me. They will be on the start line tomorrow, my mate reckons spare seats on the tender are going to be few and far between.

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Camille saw the post of you getting a VPLP class 40 , have they drawn only one [black pepper] or a second? Where and when was she built? cheers

I,ll sign the design contract this week during the Nautic ,the boats exhibition in paris . I intend to sign the contract for building with a shipyard in Thailand .

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Still no news on the missing port board.....was that the thing that went bang on the first sea trials in Sydney a few days ago? No news or no information does raise the question as to why it was not even on the boat on Sunday.

Port board was there on Saturday afternoon when they were lowering the main.

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Nice, what do you intend on using the boat for? Route du Rhum etc?

I,ll sign the design contract this week during the Nautic ,the boats exhibition in paris . I intend to sign the contract for building with a shipyard in Thailand .

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Nice, what do you intend on using the boat for? Route du Rhum etc?

I,ll sign the design contract this week during the Nautic ,the boats exhibition in paris . I intend to sign the contract for building with a shipyard in Thailand .

 

Well ,i'm a bit old now for this game..local races with a crew ,fast cruising during holidays ,and offer the boat for rent for singlehanded races ,that's the program .

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So if you go all the way EXACTLY to the top black band as you should be,

you'd technically be out of measurement as P is measured to the bottom of the band. Not to split hairs...

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I think in the old days even with 3DL and other carbon laminate film sails, we used the cunningham to control draft mostly by stretching the sail. I think 'stretching' is out now with these 3Di raw sails that are just bascially pure carbon - you pull them tight and if you go past 'tight' they just break. So the sails are going to look scallopy when the cunno is eased as there is zero give. I think we started to see this with the grey 3Di's but they still had a bit of give. When those first came out everyone complained about how ugly they were, but what's really happening is that the more stable the materials are, the less the stretch in the sail will absorb the imperfections, and the more you may need to introduce wrinkles to get a variety of draft shapes.

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Really didn't want to get into this but it's so hard when you are all going on with it.

Some if not most of those mainsails are at over 100% luff length.

There's a myriad of reasons for this which the experts here would all refute so I'm not going drag in needless to say, pretty good chance that the main is as per design.

Any sail designer North/Quantum/Doyle or other has their own ideas with good reasons

Ok, I'm going to ask this because I'm genuinely interested- why would one want a mainsail above 100% luff length?

I'd love to know. I'm sure it's there for a reason.

I'll apologise for Abbo and GS, they'll call you stupid

And because you asked nicely, Ill tell you what I understand,

My days as a sailmaker a long gone but still,

 

If you make a mainsail at 100% (that is 100% of the black band distance) a few things can happen,

1. If you have a lock you have to throttle the main to get it on to the lock

2 if you dont have a lock, you will naturally wind the main until the luff looks tight. This immediately affects the shape towards flattening.

3. If you have a lock then the only way of adjusting luff tension is with the cunningham. So you either depower by "stretching" the luff(taking the sail past its actual design screen shape). To grunt the sail up you ease the cunningham which with the longer luff makes the effect more direct

4. There is marginal size benefit by fitting a sail that is bigger inside the measured bands.

5. All membrane sails shrink so why not make the sail bigger where it is not physically measured on the sail itself. Assuming of course that you have the sail controls to arrest that extra size.

 

So if you go all the way EXACTLY to the top black band as you should be, and you are tight at that point, it limits your options for sail range.

Video from post 1944(mosailin) shows the main in its actual upwind configuration. All of the other shots showing the long luff have been in a more reaching offwind set-up.

 

Now I could be completely wrong but there is a photo from years ago showing WOXII in the harbour with big scallops in the bottom part of the luff, off the breeze.

 

As the saying gos, my 2c

Thanks for your 2c. They make perfect sense.

 

The recent footage showing that main close to perfection upwind in moderate winds (i.e. when it really matters) seems to indicate the last thing it needs is some dude taking a pair of scissors to cut 50cm off the bottom of it.

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I think in the old days even with 3DL and other carbon laminate film sails, we used the cunningham to control draft mostly by stretching the sail. I think 'stretching' is out now with these 3Di raw sails that are just bascially pure carbon - you pull them tight and if you go past 'tight' they just break. So the sails are going to look scallopy when the cunno is eased as there is zero give. I think we started to see this with the grey 3Di's but they still had a bit of give. When those first came out everyone complained about how ugly they were, but what's really happening is that the more stable the materials are, the less the stretch in the sail will absorb the imperfections, and the more you may need to introduce wrinkles to get a variety of draft shapes.

Some good points there, hard to argue with that.

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Big boat challenge, woxi leading, Comanche not far behind, loyal a light year across the harbour, problems I assume

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35 people on board Loyal. Full hospitality mode.

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By All reports Ricko owned Kenny at the start.

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By All reports Ricko owned Kenny at the start.

 

Do you have links to these reports?

 

Adventures of a Sailor Girl feed indicated the same deal.

Ricko rolled em.

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By All reports Ricko owned Kenny at the start.

 

Do you have links to these reports?

 

Adventures of a Sailor Girl feed indicated the same deal.

Ricko rolled em.

 

Golf clap

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sounds like Comanche had an opportunity on the first lap but couldn't hang onto the lead ......._) ..........._)

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sounds like Comanche had an opportunity on the first lap but couldn't hang onto the lead ......._) ..........._)

 

Yeah not a lot in it, Com did well in the light conditions and they are a manual boat.

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From Bradleys it looked as if WOXI was higher + faster in the first part of the "beat"up the habour.

Once the shift came in, didn't seem a lot in it tight reaching to the top mark. WOXI got the better transition at Steel Point, but there did seem times where Comanche showed glimpses of real offwind potential. WOXI looked very smooth though the water - very little wake. Comanche carves a much bigger hole and seems bum-heavy. Would not be surprised if there is a forward ballast tank not being used yet. Not a bad first outing and I'm sure plenty of improvement to come.

Should be a good fight come boxing day.

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By All reports Ricko owned Kenny at the start.

 

Do you have links to these reports?

So is this a typical WA iq indicator about not clicking on links above all the side comments, while the action is happening?

 

yep

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Best detail I've seen of the Comanche board design to date...

 

What's that bandaid looking thingy?

 

From the looks of it, that board couldn't be inserted from the top - the heel detail looks oversize compared to the hole in the hull. If that's the case, how did they get the "missing" board from the other day back in? Divers? Or did they lift out again?

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Mainsail comparison courtesy Mr Francolini

 

10846435_767247263312073_586176391877633

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Spot to run the up lines too... so you dont have to have posts out the top? Confusing because to my knowledge hydro drag > aero drag...

And the bottom of that board fits bang on into the exit of that case

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Best detail I've seen of the Comanche board design to date...

 

What's that bandaid looking thingy?

 

From the looks of it, that board couldn't be inserted from the top - the heel detail looks oversize compared to the hole in the hull. If that's the case, how did they get the "missing" board from the other day back in? Divers? Or did they lift out again?

At a guess it's the sheavebox for the upfucker rope.

 

Pretty sure it was out of the water and the board can only be inserted from underneath.

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After all the this, that and the other about these two, first round WO beats Comanche and there's nothin'? I thought this would light up another five pages at least.

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After all the this, that and the other about these two, first round WO beats Comanche and there's nothin'? I thought this would light up another five pages at least.

 

All of the usual suspects are still at the bar at the CYCA.

 

Oatley senior and junior were there earlier. Comanche had a card on the bar for the crew - looked like most of the crew were there having a beer or 3. Mrs Comanche and Kenny too. Even Croaky was there having a chat to them. Bit of a Hollywood arvo at the club!

 

Curious as to how 'Your Fired' ended up in not one, but two collisions today! Apparently with Shogun (now missing a prodder) and Brinders. Not sure on who was right / wrong.

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I think in the old days even with 3DL and other carbon laminate film sails, we used the cunningham to control draft mostly by stretching the sail. I think 'stretching' is out now with these 3Di raw sails that are just bascially pure carbon - you pull them tight and if you go past 'tight' they just break. So the sails are going to look scallopy when the cunno is eased as there is zero give. I think we started to see this with the grey 3Di's but they still had a bit of give. When those first came out everyone complained about how ugly they were, but what's really happening is that the more stable the materials are, the less the stretch in the sail will absorb the imperfections, and the more you may need to introduce wrinkles to get a variety of draft shapes.

 

good explanation!

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I think this race has swung me towards Comanche for the Hobart. Looked like a tight race but I would have thought that oats would have won by a larger margin, had it been the same conditions as last years big boat challenge I think it could have been a different outcome

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10832221_1543126985932100_1163063977_n.j

If I were Jim's wife I'd be waving at everyone too. "Look at meeeee, I'm rich as fuuuucckk"

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agree to those factors

 

still one wonders about the equation when you see the size difference in the rigs,

also beam musnt be treated too harshly

 

still only seen straight luffed extras on Comanche, so is it dependant on the girth measurement as to whether they are measured as Spis?

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10832221_1543126985932100_1163063977_n.j

Anyone know what those white strops are for that go from the center of transom around the quarter pulpits? The port one looks like it goes forward so I was going to say jack lines but they look too big and the starboard one looks like it stops at the pulpit.

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Best detail I've seen of the Comanche board design to date...

 

What's that bandaid looking thingy?

 

From the looks of it, that board couldn't be inserted from the top - the heel detail looks oversize compared to the hole in the hull. If that's the case, how did they get the "missing" board from the other day back in? Divers? Or did they lift out again?

At a guess it's the sheavebox for the upfucker rope.

 

Pretty sure it was out of the water and the board can only be inserted from underneath.

How ordinary does the end of that box look!!

screw heads, sits 10mm proud and a big bead of Sika thrown in for good measure - looks very 'production boat' to me

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10832221_1543126985932100_1163063977_n.j

Anyone know what those white strops are for that go from the center of transom around the quarter pulpits? The port one looks like it goes forward so I was going to say jack lines but they look too big and the starboard one looks like it stops at the pulpit.

Possibly bungee take ups for the furling lines on the furling sails, stbd one not in use.

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If I were Jim's wife I'd be waving at everyone too. "Look at meeeee, I'm rich as fuuuucckk"

Nice one kack, I'm pissing myself.

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If I were Jim's wife I'd be waving at everyone too. "Look at meeeee, I'm rich as fuuuucckk"

Nice one kack, I'm pissing myself.

 

Least she doesn't need an owners seat....

 

Audi-Hamilton-Island-Race-Week-2014-(7).

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10832221_1543126985932100_1163063977_n.j

If I were Jim's wife I'd be waving at everyone too. "Look at meeeee, I'm rich as fuuuucckk"

But it looks like she is the only Australian trophy he will be taking home with him...

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If I were Jim's wife I'd be waving at everyone too. "Look at meeeee, I'm rich as fuuuucckk"

Nice one kack, I'm pissing myself.

Least she doesn't need an owners seat....

 

Audi-Hamilton-Island-Race-Week-2014-(7).

Hopefully you will still be sailing on your 100 footer when you are 86...

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10832221_1543126985932100_1163063977_n.j

If I were Jim's wife I'd be waving at everyone too. "Look at meeeee, I'm rich as fuuuucckk"

But it looks like she is the only Australian trophy he will be taking home with him...

You bastards owe me a keyboard!

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If I were Jim's wife I'd be waving at everyone too. "Look at meeeee, I'm rich as fuuuucckk"

Nice one kack, I'm pissing myself.

Least she doesn't need an owners seat....

 

Audi-Hamilton-Island-Race-Week-2014-(7).

Hopefully you will still be sailing on your 100 footer when you are 86...

 

 

Personally I think the digs at Bob having an owners seat and even Kristy being rich etc are pretty piss poor. Love how the tall poppy syndrome kicks in for some people. Jim Clark and Bob Oatley earned their wealth, good luck to them. Love seeing Bob still out there, he can't do the Hobart so why not. Live life to it's fullest. If Oats wins the Hobart this year Bob should sell off moulds and the design drawings for XI, it appears it just might be the fastest 100' in the world.

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Want a Comanche t-shirt. Nothing showing yet on Google search. Anyone got the skinny?

Unless you are somehow involved in the project or know somebody on it currently, I think you may be out of luck. It's a private yacht, not a commercial venture.

 

That being said, I hope you find a way to get one. The shirts are pretty cool, having seen them at the launching of her in Maine.

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This piece on SBS News

 

Read did have a playful pop at Richards about the fact Comanche beat the legendary Australian yacht on corrected time.

"We kinda kicked your arse to be be honest, by almost a minute,"

Give me a break!!!!

who's arse got kicked?

just wear it like a man - Dude you got Beat!!

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This piece on SBS News

 

Read did have a playful pop at Richards about the fact Comanche beat the legendary Australian yacht on corrected time.

"We kinda kicked your arse to be be honest, by almost a minute,"

Give me a break!!!!

who's arse got kicked?

just wear it like a man - Dude you got Beat!!

What part about "playful" did you not understand?

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maybe i missed the humour - it was sounding like a stoush from 1983

 

Australia II vs Liberty

No worries! Looks entirely tongue in cheek since obviously 1 minute on corrected is not "an arse kicking " and he just lost.

 

All the crews, skippers and owners of WOXI, Comanche and Loyal must be having a ton of fun. Those guys all know each other or their crews do and they love sailing and the camaraderie of it. They just happen to have a larger budget than the rest of us.

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Simple to explain the difference.

One is designed in France.

France equals gift

 

Google translate can't even work that out....

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looks like hard work just hanging on

10832221_1543126985932100_1163063977_n.j

 

 

what's left to be bitter about ?

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1980054_10153387083692977_37977355027145

Great shot. Roll on Boxing Day, 2014.

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Haven't seen this posted here yet. Comanche crew list for Hobart.

K Read

S Honey

C Smith

K Harrap

W Fluery

T Mutter

M Trubovich

S Clarkson

R Godfrey

C Smith

J Fanelli

B Macinnes

J Von Schwarz

K Keeley

L Sinclair

C Maxted

D Rolfe

R Clarke

K Worthington

B Bardwell

G Gendell

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1980054_10153387083692977_37977355027145

Excellent shot, thanks.

 

Can someone explain to me why the supermaxis - linehonours machines that care almost nothing about handicap - don't carry overlap on their jibs? Surely it's faster, and that's what they are chasing. Or are the sheeting angles too narrow?

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None of the boats in this shot have overlapping jibs. This is the most efficient form of sail plan nowadays.

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None of the boats in this shot have overlapping jibs. This is the most efficient form of sail plan nowadays.

But look at the size of that fucker on, Comanche. Some power there for sure.

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1980054_10153387083692977_37977355027145

Excellent shot, thanks.

 

Can someone explain to me why the supermaxis - linehonours machines that care almost nothing about handicap - don't carry overlap on their jibs? Surely it's faster, and that's what they are chasing. Or are the sheeting angles too narrow?

Overlapping jibs are slow. Anything over around 110% LP. Only reason they were ever used was that older rating rules ignored the sail area behind the mast.

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1980054_10153387083692977_37977355027145

Excellent shot, thanks.

 

Can someone explain to me why the supermaxis - linehonours machines that care almost nothing about handicap - don't carry overlap on their jibs? Surely it's faster, and that's what they are chasing. Or are the sheeting angles too narrow?

Overlapping jibs are slow. Anything over around 110% LP. Only reason they were ever used was that older rating rules ignored the sail area behind the mast.

dont generalise - depends on wind strenth and wind angle - on a light wind reach overlaping headsails are usually better. And of course it depends on the whole sail plan as well. Main and jib/genoa should work as one "wing" system. For example - iif you would try to sail a dragon with a non overlapping jib and have the same keel and main - that would just not work right....

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and to answer the question:

 

they all do have overlapping genoas! they call them code 0...for beating the non overlapping jib is usually more effective....

 

maybe if you have almost no wind - i am sure a very light sort of mylar wind seeker - in a flat code 0 - design can be of help...i think ismet europa has such a sail for the middle sea race - i have seen it somewhere.

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1980054_10153387083692977_37977355027145

Excellent shot, thanks.

 

Can someone explain to me why the supermaxis - linehonours machines that care almost nothing about handicap - don't carry overlap on their jibs? Surely it's faster, and that's what they are chasing. Or are the sheeting angles too narrow?

Overlapping jibs are slow. Anything over around 110% LP. Only reason they were ever used was that older rating rules ignored the sail area behind the mast.

dont generalise - depends on wind strenth and wind angle - on a light wind reach overlaping headsails are usually better. And of course it depends on the whole sail plan as well. Main and jib/genoa should work as one "wing" system. For example - iif you would try to sail a dragon with a non overlapping jib and have the same keel and main - that would just not work right....

The green TP 52 is quantum? Whoaa that was a blaster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYKTXsRLY9Y

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No it's actually now called Balance, formerly Quest and Brightstar before that. Built by Goetz I believe. Been a Quantum boat for a while now......

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What do the speed differentials look like when they turn the corner and start the sleigh ride?

 

Good question.

 

It was a mainly reaching race with not a lot of DDW or up wind work. The longest 2 reaching legs were around 2nm in length with TWA's of roughly 100 and 80 degrees. Looking at Comanche with her massive beam and taller rig, I thought she might take time out of Oats at those angles, but, Oats took time out of Comanche.

 

It may be the advantage of Oat's Yanmar trimming in the shifts and pressure changes, but I was still surprised that Comanche didn't light up and take time out of the skinnier lower sail area Oats.

 

All in all there wasn't a lot in it, given how far behind Loyal was by comparison.

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Simple to explain the difference.

One is designed in France.

France equals gift

Please explain…my english is poor ,and i'm not sure to understand .

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What do the speed differentials look like when they turn the corner and start the sleigh ride?

is the engine trimming faster with the keel? In a tack? Or do they get the sails quicker in trimm as well?

 

And would you not have a weight disadvantage with the diesel u have to take with u - re this topic izs interesting to See that almost all the open 60 have this hydrogenerators running from their Stern..

Sure looks funny - but maybe an additional area for comanxhe and woxi optimasation...?

 

Good question.

 

It was a mainly reaching race with not a lot of DDW or up wind work. The longest 2 reaching legs were around 2nm in length with TWA's of roughly 100 and 80 degrees. Looking at Comanche with her massive beam and taller rig, I thought she might take time out of Oats at those angles, but, Oats took time out of Comanche.

 

It may be the advantage of Oat's Yanmar trimming in the shifts and pressure changes, but I was still surprised that Comanche didn't light up and take time out of the skinnier lower sail area Oats.

 

All in all there wasn't a lot in it, given how far behind Loyal was by comparison.

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What do the speed differentials look like when they turn the corner and start the sleigh ride?

is the engine trimming faster with the keel? In a tack? Or do they get the sails quicker in trimm as well?

 

And would you not have a weight disadvantage with the diesel u have to take with u - re this topic izs interesting to See that almost all the open 60 have this hydrogenerators running from their Stern..

Sure looks funny - but maybe an additional area for comanxhe and woxi optimasation...?

 

Good question.

 

It was a mainly reaching race with not a lot of DDW or up wind work. The longest 2 reaching legs were around 2nm in length with TWA's of roughly 100 and 80 degrees. Looking at Comanche with her massive beam and taller rig, I thought she might take time out of Oats at those angles, but, Oats took time out of Comanche.

 

It may be the advantage of Oat's Yanmar trimming in the shifts and pressure changes, but I was still surprised that Comanche didn't light up and take time out of the skinnier lower sail area Oats.

 

All in all there wasn't a lot in it, given how far behind Loyal was by comparison.

Both boats have motorised hydraulics handling the keels but on Comanche you could see an army of blokes on grinders downhill and through gybes for the sail handling. Comanche is a `pedestal farm'.

 

On a short course like that the weight of the diesel would probably be less than the blokes on the grinders.

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What do the speed differentials look like when they turn the corner and start the sleigh ride?

is the engine trimming faster with the keel? In a tack? Or do they get the sails quicker in trimm as well?

 

And would you not have a weight disadvantage with the diesel u have to take with u - re this topic izs interesting to See that almost all the open 60 have this hydrogenerators running from their Stern..

Sure looks funny - but maybe an additional area for comanxhe and woxi optimasation...?

 

Good question.

 

It was a mainly reaching race with not a lot of DDW or up wind work. The longest 2 reaching legs were around 2nm in length with TWA's of roughly 100 and 80 degrees. Looking at Comanche with her massive beam and taller rig, I thought she might take time out of Oats at those angles, but, Oats took time out of Comanche.

 

It may be the advantage of Oat's Yanmar trimming in the shifts and pressure changes, but I was still surprised that Comanche didn't light up and take time out of the skinnier lower sail area Oats.

 

All in all there wasn't a lot in it, given how far behind Loyal was by comparison.

Both boats have motorised hydraulics handling the keels but on Comanche you could see an army of blokes on grinders downhill and through gybes for the sail handling. Comanche is a `pedestal farm'.

 

On a short course like that the weight of the diesel would probably be less than the blokes on the grinders.

thanks - i find this really great - those 100 footers top of technological development and design - very good for our sport...to me woxi looks nicer than comanche - but i really like comanches sailplan with the mast so far back - thats very efficient sailplan - and i helps to prevent nosediving on the downhill....

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Simple to explain the difference.

One is designed in France.

France equals gift

Please explain…my english is poor ,and i'm not sure to understand .

Don't worry, neither do we. :wacko:

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The IRC Handicap rating of Comanche is not a good sign when compared to Oats if you believe the handicap is a sign of performance. Off course these guys don't race handicap, they race line honours. Now we have a 2004 designed boat that rates faster than a 2014 design. This is relevant to Hobart and Comanche is a manual boat which is legal in other forms of racing. I suspect Jim will not want to be racing Oats too often.

 

http://sailinganarchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/IRC-Rating.jpg

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