• Announcements

    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
    • B.J. Porter

      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

      After fifteen years of volunteer moderation at SA, I will no longer be part of the moderation team. The decision to step aside is mine, and has been some time in the works but we did not wish to announce it in advance for a number of reasons. It's been fun, but I need my time back for other purposes now. The Underdawg admin account will not be monitored until further notice, as I will be relinquishing control of it along with my administrative privileges. Zapata will continue on as a moderator, and any concerns or issues can be directed to that account or to the Editor until further notice. Anyone interested in helping moderate the forums should reach out to Scot by sending a PM to the Editor account. Please note that I am not leaving the community, I am merely stepping aside from Admin responsibilities and privileges on the site.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rail Meat

The "Everest of Sailing".....irritates me to no end

126 posts in this topic

So this is my cranky old man moment.

 

I am browsing the Newport Bermuda site the other day and see a posted article by a skipper who did the race for the first time in 2012 and is sharing his thoughts for other people contemplating doing the race. "How nice", I thought to myself. Somebody who is generous with their experience and hopeful that others will get to have the same joy they got from ocean racing.

 

My good cheer lasted about five or six paragraphs, until in the middle of an explanation about safety he wrote "The Newport Bermuda Race is the Everest of sailing".

 

Really? A 635 mile jaunt that might take a longish weekend to complete is the same as the world's tallest mountain, located in the remote regions of Nepal? To be fair to the author, I had an identical reaction when the same phrase was bandied about for this year's Sydney Hobart race. Although I suppose if you consider that there are hundreds of boats and thousands of people clogging up the seas between either destination, with plenty of professionals willing and able to short-rope you to the top of these two "Everests", then maybe the comparison is a little bit more apt.

 

Both races are certainly iconic ocean races. Both offer a taste of danger, and a distraction from the comforts of civilization. Both could be considered an adventure if you set aside the fact that either track is criss crossed by dozens of vessels in any given week of any given year. But Everest? Pah! Try to compare either race to the Vendee Globe, the Barcelona Race, the Volvo or the Mini Transat. If your 600 mile jaunt is "Everest", what would that make those races? You are going to run out of empty superlatives pretty quickly.

 

The abuse of this comparison as a simple extension of the phenomena where every child gets a ribbon, or grade inflation at Harvard. We have gotten so numb to empty praise intended to make everyone feel special that we have to come up with ever more inflated ways to puff up our fragile egos. The Newport Bermuda or Sydney Hobart certainly is an accomplishment, particularly for a corinthian sailor who has never been more than 20 miles off shore. Either race may even be one's personal mountain to climb. But Everest? Don't be silly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nowadays Mt. Everest is quite a tourist destination anyway.

Pay and you'll get to the top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this is my cranky old man moment.

 

I am browsing the Newport Bermuda site the other day and see a posted article by a skipper who did the race for the first time in 2012 and is sharing his thoughts for other people contemplating doing the race. "How nice", I thought to myself. Somebody who is generous with their experience and hopeful that others will get to have the same joy they got from ocean racing.

 

My good cheer lasted about five or six paragraphs, until in the middle of an explanation about safety he wrote "The Newport Bermuda Race is the Everest of sailing".

 

Really? A 635 mile jaunt that might take a longish weekend to complete is the same as the world's tallest mountain, located in the remote regions of Nepal? To be fair to the author, I had an identical reaction when the same phrase was bandied about for this year's Sydney Hobart race. Although I suppose if you consider that there are hundreds of boats and thousands of people clogging up the seas between either destination, with plenty of professionals willing and able to short-rope you to the top of these two "Everests", then maybe the comparison is a little bit more apt.

 

Both races are certainly iconic ocean races. Both offer a taste of danger, and a distraction from the comforts of civilization. Both could be considered an adventure if you set aside the fact that either track is criss crossed by dozens of vessels in any given week of any given year. But Everest? Pah! Try to compare either race to the Vendee Globe, the Barcelona Race, the Volvo or the Mini Transat. If your 600 mile jaunt is "Everest", what would that make those races? You are going to run out of empty superlatives pretty quickly.

 

The abuse of this comparison as a simple extension of the phenomena where every child gets a ribbon, or grade inflation at Harvard. We have gotten so numb to empty praise intended to make everyone feel special that we have to come up with ever more inflated ways to puff up our fragile egos. The Newport Bermuda or Sydney Hobart certainly is an accomplishment, particularly for a corinthian sailor who has never been more than 20 miles off shore. Either race may even be one's personal mountain to climb. But Everest? Don't be silly.

.

 

A few weeks to get ready. 50-100 grand for a good charter and the pro sailors/sherpas, and you are good to go. You don't need to be terribly fit, you don't need to know much, and there is a remote chance you will die. It actually is the perfect comparison Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except we all know the Vendee Globe is the actual Everest….. without sherpas or oxygen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've heard the phrase so many times in so many different races... I think we've got the makings of a new drinking game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everest via the Southeast Col has always been a walk-up. Sure, walking above 8000 meters requires stamina, preparation, fitness and determination. And it was a damned tough walk before the advent of modern gear and the weather can get nasty, quickly. But it's a walk-up.

 

That said, both the Hobart and the Bermuda are basically cake walks. Modern forecasting has taken most of the mystery out of the Gulf Stream and Southern Busters and modern hull shapes have reduced the times to little more than a 3-day weekend even for club racers.

 

If you want to talk about serious high-altitude mountaineering then you talk about K2.

 

And if you want to talk about serious ocean racing, you talk about the Vendee, the Barcelona World Race and the Volvo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except we all know the Vendee Globe is the actual Everest….. without sherpas or oxygen.

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have issues with this phrase for other reasons, although the its reference in the Sydney-Hobart did make me wince... My gripe is the traffic on Everest is often thick these days, with groups sometimes queuing for their chance to summit on clear days. Maybe Everest should be referred to as the 'solo non-stop round the world' of mountaineering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most annoying hyperbole in the world. Ever.

 

Yes, it's the Everest of hyperbole

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a perfect ranting subject for the front page

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On Everest, on average one climber dies for every ten that make it to the summit and back down again (still).

 

Maybe a better comparison might be that the Newport-Bermuda race is like the Mount Monadnock of sailing....?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For a blue water sailor, Bermuda is very short leg, almost a 'lunch stop'. Most of us are not even really into our sea legs and sleep rhythm when we get there. It is hardly Everest, much less K2 or Nanga Parbat (which is more dangerous)

 

But the gulf stream can be "interesting". It is one of the half dozen most interesting ocean features in the world. The gulf stream deserves respect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this is my cranky old man moment.

 

I am browsing the Newport Bermuda site the other day and see a posted article by a skipper who did the race for the first time in 2012 and is sharing his thoughts for other people contemplating doing the race. "How nice", I thought to myself. Somebody who is generous with their experience and hopeful that others will get to have the same joy they got from ocean racing.

 

My good cheer lasted about five or six paragraphs, until in the middle of an explanation about safety he wrote "The Newport Bermuda Race is the Everest of sailing".

 

Really? A 635 mile jaunt that might take a longish weekend to complete is the same as the world's tallest mountain, located in the remote regions of Nepal?

 

 

Could be an accurate description, here's the line up for Everest.

 

everest_002.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Most annoying hyperbole in the world. Ever.

 

Yes, it's the Everest of hyperbole

Well played Sir.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nowadays Mt. Everest is quite a tourist destination anyway.

Pay and you'll get to the top.

That's the Everest of Exaggerations.

 

Firstly, the major guiding companies won't accept people without prior climbing experience. One, for example, specifies climbing experience at Alpine grade AD (which is far from cutting edge but still excludes 99% of the population) and prior experience above 6000m.

 

Secondly, if you aren't hyper-fit, you aren't going to get far.

 

Thirdly, cross your fingers for good weather. No weather window, no summit.

 

Fourthly, people still die in the attempt. Not nearly as many proportionally as used to do so but more, much more, than any sailing event.

 

One of the major guiding companies actually provides stats on success rates, which vary from 55%-75% year to year. Of those who don't make it, around half don't get as far as the South Col, which I think is the destination of the long line of climbers shown above (i.e. they are not on the way to the summit).

 

No I haven't summited Everest but I know people who have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everest via the Southeast Col has always been a walk-up. Sure, walking above 8000 meters requires stamina, preparation, fitness and determination. And it was a damned tough walk before the advent of modern gear and the weather can get nasty, quickly. But it's a walk-up.

Other than the Hilary Step, which doesn't really fall into most people's idea of a walk. It's a bit airy. Yes there will be fixed ropes.

 

img_062-dav-hillary-step.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I climbed with a great PNW climber Pete Schoening for several years, who was the highest American before Whittaker (whose Swan 44 Impossible never quite performed well. . . it's different). Pete executed "The Belay" that saved 5 falling climbers on K2 in '53, and was a truly amazing guy. I learned more about tying knots, safety, what can go wrong, and keeping it simple from him. Pete made it to 26,000 feet on Everest at 69 years old. I want to be like him when I grow up.

 

I've gotten my ass kicked climbing, and on Sydney/Hobart, but neither compares to Everest before the tourist masses, and certainly Newport/Bermuda does not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a perfect ranting subject for the front page

Cool. You might want to do a light edit. I have two or three minor typos in there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1

 

Everest??? I've never climbed the big mountain myself but have gone south a fair few times and can tell you; Hobart is a walk in the park most years with the odd exceptions that can probably be counted on 1 to 2 hands in the 69 years its been on.... And the vid? Classic Australian media bla...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a perfect ranting subject for the front page

 

Where is that?

 

Someone had to say it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and i have always been under the impression that cape horn (on the usual non-benevolent days) was the everest of sailing. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill....

 

who cares what he says?

 

he accomplished a goal - good for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good rant. Newport to Bermuda is more akin to a weekend hike along the Appalachian trial.

Cue the Deliverance music

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except we all know the Vendee Globe is the actual Everest….. without sherpas or oxygen.

It is known.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe Everest should be referred to as the 'solo non-stop round the world' of mountaineering.

 

Rich Wilson includes a fun graphic in his Vendee presentation:

Vendee.jpg

 

Sums it up nicely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Most annoying hyperbole in the world. Ever.

 

Yes, it's the Everest of hyperbole

Well played Sir.

LOL.

RM, I had the same reaction as yours. What a load of extravagant bollocks that report was. I agree with Estar that the Gulf stream is a fascinating bit of water to get across optimally, and has a personality of its own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill....

 

who cares what he says?

 

he accomplished a goal - good for him.

I don't think anyone has a problem with that achievement, only the mountains he has made of the molehill when there are much more deserving comparisons :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

a perfect ranting subject for the front page

Cool. You might want to do a light edit. I have two or three minor typos in there

That's ma job! Might through in my own take as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

a perfect ranting subject for the front page

Cool. You might want to do a light edit. I have two or three minor typos in there

That's ma job! Might through in my own take as well.

 

Well, you're throwing in your own spelling. Might be better without the edit...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's about the only part of the editing process I'm good at!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Maybe Everest should be referred to as the 'solo non-stop round the world' of mountaineering.

 

Rich Wilson includes a fun graphic in his Vendee presentation:

Vendee.jpg

 

Sums it up nicely.

 

Is it still only 50 or so? I suppose I should know, but I don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everest is up to >4000 summiters, 538 people summited from the south last year alone:

http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2013/06/03/everest-2013-season-recap/

Number of basecamp trekkers is in the many thousands a year and there's internet cafes along the way. Not quite Kansas, but it's nothing like the experiences of the pioneers of climbing in terms of remoteness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice to see the death ratio down from 10% to only 3.6% on Everest (and only 1.2% for 2013!) -- which means only 1 person has died in the attempt for every 28 people that made it to the summit (on average). I wonder what the death ratio is for non-stop solo round-the-world sailors, or for astronauts orbiting the earth. Everest still strikes me as more dangerous....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice to see the death ratio down from 10% to only 3.6% on Everest (and only 1.2% for 2013!) -- which means only 1 person has died in the attempt for every 28 people that made it to the summit (on average). I wonder what the death ratio is for non-stop solo round-the-world sailors, or for astronauts orbiting the earth. Everest still strikes me as more dangerous....

NASA was 3.4% the last time I looked.

 

Solo non-stop is lower. There was a high spike back when the boats would stay upside down, but particularity recently it is well under 1%. Still orders of magnitudes higher than most other perceived 'dangerous sports'. I put the following together for the Low Speed Chase report, but they got edited out of the final draft:

 

Base Jumping .04%

Cycling .001% (interaction with cars make it more dangerous than one might expect)

SKyDiving .001%

Football (european) .001%

Running a marathon .0008% (heart attacks a major cause apparently)

Skiing .00006%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an acquaintance who has climbed Everest at least 14 times, plus done 2 rescues above 27,000'. No matter how much help you get, it sounds like a miserable slog. Bermuda can be a lovely sail, I don't see Everest as being a lovely walk, no matter how well it goes.

 

Everest is safe compared to K2, which is safe compared to Hummingbird Ridge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In context, should it not be the "Marianas Trench of Sailing"?

 

 

i think more people have walked on the moon than have been to the bottom of the Marianas Trench

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everest is safe compared to K2, which is safe compared to Hummingbird Ridge.

Agreed.

 

Evans, one thing about the published mountaineering death rates is that they are comparing the number of climbers who died in the attempt only to the number of climbers who successfully reached the summit (and came back down), not to the total number of climbers who started out from base camp with the intention of trying to make the summit, but turned back before getting there (and before dieing) for whatever reason. So I believe that is a little different from the statistics you cited for other action sports, where they are probably looking at deaths compared to the total number of participants (at all levels? e.g. skiing the bunny slopes?).

 

My Dad turned back just 200 or 300 feet (vertical) short of the summit of Denali. Well into his sixties, he just couldn't keep up with the younger members of his party, and knew that he had run out of time...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair point about the basis for calculation, but then you also need to take into account 7 of the recent fatalities have been Sherpas, i.e. professionals working on the mountain with much different goals than a recreational climber or even a western professional. Everest, because it's Everest, also attracts all manner of people. 82 year olds trying to be the oldest to summit (another recent fatality), parties of 16 year olds, different scene entirely. Apples and Kumquats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've gotten my ass kicked climbing, and on Sydney/Hobart, but neither compares to Everest before the tourist masses, and certainly Newport/Bermuda does not.

 

The only guy I know who has done Everest, Fastnet, Hobart, Lhotse and (IIRC) K2 and Towers of Paine (sp) agrees that the offshore races are the proverbial stroll through the greenery compared to the Himalayas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Nice to see the death ratio down from 10% to only 3.6% on Everest (and only 1.2% for 2013!) -- which means only 1 person has died in the attempt for every 28 people that made it to the summit (on average). I wonder what the death ratio is for non-stop solo round-the-world sailors, or for astronauts orbiting the earth. Everest still strikes me as more dangerous....

NASA was 3.4% the last time I looked.

 

Solo non-stop is lower. There was a high spike back when the boats would stay upside down, but particularity recently it is well under 1%. Still orders of magnitudes higher than most other perceived 'dangerous sports'. I put the following together for the Low Speed Chase report, but they got edited out of the final draft:

 

Base Jumping .04%

Cycling .001% (interaction with cars make it more dangerous than one might expect)

SKyDiving .001%

Football (european) .001%

Running a marathon .0008% (heart attacks a major cause apparently)

Skiing .00006%

 

Sydney-Hobart about .0004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Maybe Everest should be referred to as the 'solo non-stop round the world' of mountaineering.

 

Rich Wilson includes a fun graphic in his Vendee presentation:

Vendee.jpg

 

Sums it up nicely.

 

Is it still only 50 or so? I suppose I should know, but I don't.

 

We were just talking about/researching that...

 

We came up with 101 successful attempts by 78 individuals. I've seen several definitions of "around the world" but I think the one most people point to is WSSRC (section 26.1.a). Certainly all the Vendée Globe finishers on this list meet that standard but I can't vouch for the rest.Those who started and finished from Europe probably meet it but the Australian listings might need more scrutiny. For example I recall there was a stink about Jessica Watson's track not exceeding 21,600 nm. Anyway, lots of missing data, and my apologies if anyone was left out but here's what we came up with. All corrections welcome.

 

 

SinglehandedNonstopCircumnavigators1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everest via the Southeast Col has always been a walk-up. Sure, walking above 8000 meters requires stamina, preparation, fitness and determination. And it was a damned tough walk before the advent of modern gear and the weather can get nasty, quickly. But it's a walk-up.

 

That said, both the Hobart and the Bermuda are basically cake walks. Modern forecasting has taken most of the mystery out of the Gulf Stream and Southern Busters and modern hull shapes have reduced the times to little more than a 3-day weekend even for club racers.

 

If you want to talk about serious high-altitude mountaineering then you talk about K2.

 

And if you want to talk about serious ocean racing, you talk about the Vendee, the Barcelona World Race and the Volvo.

You've summited Everest then? Attempted K2? Denali? I'm just trying to calibrate your version of a walk up. Lots of people die on the easiest "walk ups" on Everest and Denali. And as hard as K2 is, it isn't close to the most difficult summit in the Karakoram.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an acquaintance who has climbed Everest at least 14 times, plus done 2 rescues above 27,000'. No matter how much help you get, it sounds like a miserable slog. Bermuda can be a lovely sail, I don't see Everest as being a lovely walk, no matter how well it goes.

 

Everest is safe compared to K2, which is safe compared to Hummingbird Ridge.

Well, it's unrepeated and Freer and Cheesemond are still up there. But there are tons of routes more difficult that K2: Latok 1 for example, Ogre, I could write for a week and not get to the end of a list of routes that I don't have the balls to try.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Maybe Everest should be referred to as the 'solo non-stop round the world' of mountaineering.

 

Rich Wilson includes a fun graphic in his Vendee presentation:

Vendee.jpg

 

Sums it up nicely.

 

Is it still only 50 or so? I suppose I should know, but I don't.

 

We were just talking about/researching that...

 

We came up with 101 successful attempts by 78 individuals. I've seen several definitions of "around the world" but I think the one most people point to is WSSRC (section 26.1.a). Certainly all the Vendée Globe finishers on this list meet that standard but I can't vouch for the rest.Those who started and finished from Europe probably meet it but the Australian listings might need more scrutiny. For example I recall there was a stink about Jessica Watson's track not exceeding 21,600 nm. Anyway, lots of missing data, and my apologies if anyone was left out but here's what we came up with. All corrections welcome.

 

 

SinglehandedNonstopCircumnavigators1.jpg

JG do you have this as a PDF or XLS file? Would appreciate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jonathan, thank you for doing that research.

 

What an amazing feat of Jon Sanders. 5 times around in two trips. And he was only the fourth to do it at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John,

Nice work. Just glancing briefly at it you need to remove Samantha Brewster. Her Westabout circumnavigation was not non-stop. SHe stopped in Brazil, I think it was for a broken boom.

You are right that Jessica Watson's circumnavigation was questioned. Unbelievably she did not sail the requisite miles in the opposite hemisphere to her start, by just a few hundred miles. Seems to someone should have told her at the time just remove any question. Her voyage should still be recognised in a list like yours, but rightly the WSSRC will not because of the 'youngest' age category anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John,

Nice work. Just glancing briefly at it you need to remove Samantha Brewster. Her Westabout circumnavigation was not non-stop. SHe stopped in Brazil, I think it was for a broken boom.

You are right that Jessica Watson's circumnavigation was questioned. Unbelievably she did not sail the requisite miles in the opposite hemisphere to her start, by just a few hundred miles. Seems to someone should have told her at the time just remove any question. Her voyage should still be recognised in a list like yours, but rightly the WSSRC will not because of the 'youngest' age category anyway.

Please. Anything but this shit again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe Everest should be referred to as the 'solo non-stop round the world' of mountaineering.

 

Rich Wilson includes a fun graphic in his Vendee presentation:

Vendee.jpg

 

Sums it up nicely.

Is it still only 50 or so? I suppose I should know, but I don't.

We were just talking about/researching that...

 

We came up with 101 successful attempts by 78 individuals. I've seen several definitions of "around the world" but I think the one most people point to is WSSRC (section 26.1.a). Certainly all the Vendée Globe finishers on this list meet that standard but I can't vouch for the rest.Those who started and finished from Europe probably meet it but the Australian listings might need more scrutiny. For example I recall there was a stink about Jessica Watson's track not exceeding 21,600 nm. Anyway, lots of missing data, and my apologies if anyone was left out but here's what we came up with. All corrections welcome.

 

 

SinglehandedNonstopCircumnavigators1.jpg

Where the fuck is Reed Stowe?????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

John,

Nice work. Just glancing briefly at it you need to remove Samantha Brewster. Her Westabout circumnavigation was not non-stop. SHe stopped in Brazil, I think it was for a broken boom.

You are right that Jessica Watson's circumnavigation was questioned. Unbelievably she did not sail the requisite miles in the opposite hemisphere to her start, by just a few hundred miles. Seems to someone should have told her at the time just remove any question. Her voyage should still be recognised in a list like yours, but rightly the WSSRC will not because of the 'youngest' age category anyway.

Please. Anything but this shit again.

What shit? I am saying her voyage should be recognised but that the WSSRC has rightly stopped recognising the 'youngest' category. As for the distance thing, if the WSSRC are not recognising it then it is irrelevant. Untwist your knickers, I still think what she did is amazing, and more than I would/could have done at that age for sure!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

John,

Nice work. Just glancing briefly at it you need to remove Samantha Brewster. Her Westabout circumnavigation was not non-stop. SHe stopped in Brazil, I think it was for a broken boom.

You are right that Jessica Watson's circumnavigation was questioned. Unbelievably she did not sail the requisite miles in the opposite hemisphere to her start, by just a few hundred miles. Seems to someone should have told her at the time just remove any question. Her voyage should still be recognised in a list like yours, but rightly the WSSRC will not because of the 'youngest' age category anyway.

 

Please. Anything but this shit again.

What shit? I am saying her voyage should be recognised but that the WSSRC has rightly stopped recognising the 'youngest' category. As for the distance thing, if the WSSRC are not recognising it then it is irrelevant. Untwist your knickers, I still think what she did is amazing, and more than I would/could have done at that age for sure!

Yep. That's the shit I mean. Once you have achieved something more than body odour by yourself, come back and comment on JW achievements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

John,

Nice work. Just glancing briefly at it you need to remove Samantha Brewster. Her Westabout circumnavigation was not non-stop. SHe stopped in Brazil, I think it was for a broken boom.

You are right that Jessica Watson's circumnavigation was questioned. Unbelievably she did not sail the requisite miles in the opposite hemisphere to her start, by just a few hundred miles. Seems to someone should have told her at the time just remove any question. Her voyage should still be recognised in a list like yours, but rightly the WSSRC will not because of the 'youngest' age category anyway.

Please. Anything but this shit again.

What shit? I am saying her voyage should be recognised but that the WSSRC has rightly stopped recognising the 'youngest' category. As for the distance thing, if the WSSRC are not recognising it then it is irrelevant. Untwist your knickers, I still think what she did is amazing, and more than I would/could have done at that age for sure!

Yep. That's the shit I mean. Once you have achieved something more than body odour by yourself, come back and comment on JW achievements.

Nope, sorry, I don't understand your issue. All I have done is state facts and say I think she is impressive.

DO I think it is right for WSSRC to stop the 'youngest' category, well yes. Not because of Jess, but because of who might come in the future. Pull your head out of your arse.

As for achieving something more than body odour, what the hell does that have to do with having an opinion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JG do you have this as a PDF or XLS file? Would appreciate

 

Here you go: XLS and PDF. I have a couple different people working on this so it's being updated continually. If you want to make edits/contributions, perhaps a google doc would make more sense.

 

Just glancing briefly at it you need to remove Samantha Brewster. Her Westabout circumnavigation was not non-stop. SHe stopped in Brazil, I think it was for a broken boom.

 

Roger that, thanks. She has been removed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^

 

Jeanne Socrates 2013

 

I am guessing there are several more "cruiser types" who gave done it quietly, people like the griffith's (I believe their specific trip did not make the currently "correct" distance, but of course back then the WSSRC did not exist). I know there was an Irish guy who did it in a 38' steel boat - we met him in kinsale but can't remember his name. There is also a soviet block guy (polish ?) who has done it - we met him in Iceland.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^

 

Jeanne Socrates 2013

 

I am guessing there are several more "cruiser types" who gave done it quietly, people like the griffith's (I believe their specific trip did not make the currently "correct" distance, but of course back then the WSSRC did not exist). I know there was an Irish guy who did it in a 38' steel boat - we met him in kinsale but can't remember his name. There is also a soviet block guy (polish ?) who has done it - we met him in Iceland.

Were they non-stop? Most cruisers want to stop at least a few times along the way. I would love to do a Richard Clifford style circumnavigation. Taking about 7 years and working his way slowly through the Pacific.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Polish sailor mentioned might be Tomasz Lewandowski who sailed non-stop West to East from Ensenada, CA to Ensenada, CA during 2007-2008 on a Mikado 56 named Luka.

The trip took a leisurely 391 Days, 20 Hours, 29 Minutes, 10 Seconds.

However, Tom did have his First Mate, Wacek with him (Jack Russel Terrier)

Tom's voyage was listed in the Guinness Book of World Records 2010 (page 90 something).

Unfortunately, Mr. Lewandowski passed away in 2012.

Here is a link to his website
http://www.soloaroundtheworld.com

post-106106-0-78833400-1393262157_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More, maybe a separate topic worth ??

 

Dutchies:

 

Jan Wit - 54yr old
Mono boatname Bastaert van Campen (design Koopmans Ned) Loa 11.87 meter 1995-1996 263 days Plymouth-Plymouth (UK)
Pleun van der Lugt 30 yr Mono Zeeuwse stromen (ferro cement design Jay. R. Benford USA) 12,70 meter 1981-1982 286 days Zierikzee-Zierikzee (Ned)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To address RM's original concern, and given that thousands have successfully climbed Everest, perhaps we need a new metaphor for the solo RTW stuff.

 

So, what difficult adventure is there, that has roughly the same number of wackos (77 or so, evidently) that have done it?

 

Looking at the top mountain challenges, it appears that many more have done all of them than have gone solo RTW, however the death rates are much higher (130 have successfully climbed Annapurna, however the death rate 41%, yow!). Baintha Brakk sounds like a toughie...only a few have made it however can't find out how many exactly.

 

Hard to find a comparable event...suggestions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any numbers on how many have climbed everest solo without oxygen bottles?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Any numbers on how many have climbed everest solo without oxygen bottles?

Here are some statistics 1922 - 2006 from Explorer's Web.

 

As of 2006, there were only 144 successful Everest climbs without oxygen. How many there have been since 2006, I don't know

 

http://www.adventurestats.com/tables/EverestO2Fat.shtml

 

I came across this blog with a recap of the 2013 season on Everest, indicating 9 people did it without oxygen bottles last season alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Were they non-stop? Most cruisers want to stop at least a few times along the way. I would love to do a Richard Clifford style circumnavigation. Taking about 7 years and working his way slowly through the Pacific.

 

Wonder how long Dylan could take...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To address RM's original concern, and given that thousands have successfully climbed Everest, perhaps we need a new metaphor for the solo RTW stuff.

 

So, what difficult adventure is there, that has roughly the same number of wackos (77 or so, evidently) that have done it?

 

Looking at the top mountain challenges, it appears that many more have done all of them than have gone solo RTW, however the death rates are much higher (130 have successfully climbed Annapurna, however the death rate 41%, yow!). Baintha Brakk sounds like a toughie...only a few have made it however can't find out how many exactly.

 

Hard to find a comparable event...suggestions?

To address RM's original concern, and given that thousands have successfully climbed Everest, perhaps we need a new metaphor for the solo RTW stuff.

 

So, what difficult adventure is there, that has roughly the same number of wackos (77 or so, evidently) that have done it?

 

Looking at the top mountain challenges, it appears that many more have done all of them than have gone solo RTW, however the death rates are much higher (130 have successfully climbed Annapurna, however the death rate 41%, yow!). Baintha Brakk sounds like a toughie...only a few have made it however can't find out how many exactly.

 

Hard to find a comparable event...suggestions?

The Ogre, aka Baintha Braak has seen three (3) successful ascents. 7 climbers total. Bonington, Scott, Huber, Stocker, Wolf, Kennedy, Dempster.

 

Latok remains unclimbed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^. Yes, spent quite a bit of time with him in Patagonia. We shared having "escaped" from similar New England roots. I had profound respect for him. He did very hard stuff very quietly, just for the personal pleasure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

John,

Nice work. Just glancing briefly at it you need to remove Samantha Brewster. Her Westabout circumnavigation was not non-stop. SHe stopped in Brazil, I think it was for a broken boom.

You are right that Jessica Watson's circumnavigation was questioned. Unbelievably she did not sail the requisite miles in the opposite hemisphere to her start, by just a few hundred miles. Seems to someone should have told her at the time just remove any question. Her voyage should still be recognised in a list like yours, but rightly the WSSRC will not because of the 'youngest' age category anyway.

Please. Anything but this shit again.

 

What shit? I am saying her voyage should be recognised but that the WSSRC has rightly stopped recognising the 'youngest' category. As for the distance thing, if the WSSRC are not recognising it then it is irrelevant. Untwist your knickers, I still think what she did is amazing, and more than I would/could have done at that age for sure!

 

Yep. That's the shit I mean. Once you have achieved something more than body odour by yourself, come back and comment on JW achievements.

 

Nope, sorry, I don't understand your issue. All I have done is state facts and say I think she is impressive.

DO I think it is right for WSSRC to stop the 'youngest' category, well yes. Not because of Jess, but because of who might come in the future. Pull your head out of your arse.

As for achieving something more than body odour, what the hell does that have to do with having an opinion?

So why bring it up? Whether she sailed the correct distance or not has been debated to death in many many threads over the years. Back peddle as hard as you like now, but it doesn't change the fact that you said she didn't sail the distance. Get back to us when you get back from your solo lap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Any numbers on how many have climbed everest solo without oxygen bottles?

Here are some statistics 1922 - 2006 from Explorer's Web.

 

As of 2006, there were only 144 successful Everest climbs without oxygen. How many there have been since 2006, I don't know

 

http://www.adventurestats.com/tables/EverestO2Fat.shtml

 

I came across this blog with a recap of the 2013 season on Everest, indicating 9 people did it without oxygen bottles last season alone.

Getting closer, though i imagine the number of soloists is even smaller than the RTW'ers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Until the rise of commercial/guided ascents in the 90's, the fatality rate was 37%. The commercial expeditions put so many people on top that the rate is down to .04. Nepal makes a craplad of money off of these trips, so there is virtually no hope of giving the mountain back to nature or climbers that have earned the right to be there.

 

There are so many ways of getting the chop while climbing over 8000m, especially when climbing without supplemental oxygen. what you need to remember is that every hour that you spend up there...you're dying...slowly. If you screw up, you might as well be in space. You walk over a lot of unsuccessful climbers on the way to the summit of Everest...on the easiest route.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any numbers on how many have climbed everest solo without oxygen bottles?

 

Here are some statistics 1922 - 2006 from Explorer's Web.

 

As of 2006, there were only 144 successful Everest climbs without oxygen. How many there have been since 2006, I don't know

 

http://www.adventurestats.com/tables/EverestO2Fat.shtml

I came across this blog with a recap of the 2013 season on Everest, indicating 9 people did it without oxygen bottles last season alone.

Getting closer, though i imagine the number of soloists is even smaller than the RTW'ers?

It's hard to tell Alan without going back to messner's ascent and counting them from the AAJ journals. I'm fairly certain the number of soloists without supplemental O2 is pretty darn low.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Until the rise of commercial/guided ascents in the 90's, the fatality rate was 37%. The commercial expeditions put so many people on top that the rate is down to .04. Nepal makes a craplad of money off of these trips, so there is virtually no hope of giving the mountain back to nature or climbers that have earned the right to be there.

 

There are so many ways of getting the chop while climbing over 8000m, especially when climbing without supplemental oxygen. what you need to remember is that every hour that you spend up there...you're dying...slowly. If you screw up, you might as well be in space. You walk over a lot of unsuccessful climbers on the way to the summit of Everest...on the easiest route.

 

Thanks NS. It's funny how the ocean seems like a blank slate, but every circumnavigator (and even ocean crosser, really) is riding over thousands of dead bodies themselves, in a way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely. However sailing technology has made the trip around a LOT safer. There's no technology, other than O2 tanks that you have to lug on your back, that's going to help you up. It's your legs and lungs. As Moonduster said, it's just a walk up...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely. However sailing technology has made the trip around a LOT safer. There's no technology, other than O2 tanks that you have to lug on your back, that's going to help you up. It's your legs and lungs. As Moonduster said, it's just a walk up...

Well that's not quite right. Just like in sailing, improvements in communications and particularly weather forecasting has had a huge impact on Everest. That is a big part of the traffic jam problem. All the guiding companies have access to this and now know exactly when and how long the window will be open for. Same with drugs. Diamox and Decadron are two drugs that help deal with attitude sickness and some estimates say that 90% of those attempting the summit are now using them. I agree that any comparisons between the S2H and climbing Everest are just plain stupid. The S2H might be someone's personal 'Everest' (We have a headland at the top of Moreton Bay we call 'the Day Skipper's Cape Horn') but anyone with zero sailing experience can splash the cash down, show up boxing day morning and be aboard a yacht that makes it to Hobart. You cannot just show up without any experience or preparation and climb Everest no matter how many Sherpa’s you hire. Unless you train for a least a year and spend weeks going up and down to acclimatize, then you WILL die. No question about it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So why bring it up? Whether she sailed the correct distance or not has been debated to death in many many threads over the years. Back peddle as hard as you like now, but it doesn't change the fact that you said she didn't sail the distance. Get back to us when you get back from your solo lap.

 

Because Jonathon Green specifically stated 'I recall there was a stink about Jessica Watson's track not exceeding 21,600 nm. Anyway, lots of missing data, and my apologies if anyone was left out but here's what we came up with. All corrections welcome.'

 

I was merely responding to that.

 

I am not back peddling, even her own website admits that she sailed less than 20,000 miles when she entered Australian waters. It is not in dispute that she did not meet WSSRC requirements, it is not my opinion just fact. My opinion is that her circumnavigation should be recognised in general (and it is) even if not by WSSRC.

 

I tried to take this out of this forum as it is not relevant to the topic, but your message box seems to be full.

As for not commenting until I have completed a solo lap, well surely that goes both ways. Imagine if only those who had done the Newport-Bermuda or climbed Everest could comment on this thread...it would be a lot shorter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also there is this guy....

 

Guo Chuan has succeeded in becoming the first Chinese sailor to circumnavigate the earth non-stop and singlehanded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for additions/deletions, keep them coming. I'll post this update but won't continue to bombard this thread with the list thereafter unless requested. Clean, the updated XLS is here.

 

SinglehandedNonstopCircumnavigators2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for additions/deletions, keep them coming. I'll post this update but won't continue to bombard this thread with the list thereafter unless requested. Clean, the updated XLS is here.

 

SinglehandedNonstopCircumnavigators2.jpg

Bernard Moitessier is missing (1969). He abandonned the golden globe but that was to carry on further...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He stopped at French Polynesia, and that is maybe not enough north to make the circle complete, though he sailed enough miles...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, our little ocean races are a lot easier than climbing a mountain. That being said, most "club racers" don't do it in a 3 day weekend. But maybe a "longish" weekend has a different definition than what I'm used to? 3 days is an average of 8.8+ kts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What Clean said is so true; we are sailing over countless dead bodies out there. Especially when going around the horn, etc.

 

During the 02/03 Around Alone, I had to stop at Port Stanley in the Falklands to repair the broken boom (2nd time I broke it). One evening, some of the wonderful locals who were helping us took us to dinner (me and Erich Chase, our carbon repair guru who flew in on the once-a-week plane).

 

On the wall in the restaurant was an old chart printed with notes and little diagrams's where hundreds of recorded lost ships were recorded. On the Southwest side of the island (where much of the wind comes from) there were very few notes. I brought up that this was odd, given that many ships would have been lost there on the lee shore. Whereupon a knowledgable local pointed out that the SW side of the island was a lot of sheer cliffs, and so the ships lost there would have been dashed away without a trace. Never recorded, just gone.

 

Made me quiet for a while.

 

B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyhow, I think I might start saying I've done the Baintha Braak of Sailing. Has a nice ring to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

To address RM's original concern, and given that thousands have successfully climbed Everest, perhaps we need a new metaphor for the solo RTW stuff.

 

So, what difficult adventure is there, that has roughly the same number of wackos (77 or so, evidently) that have done it?

 

Looking at the top mountain challenges, it appears that many more have done all of them than have gone solo RTW, however the death rates are much higher (130 have successfully climbed Annapurna, however the death rate 41%, yow!). Baintha Brakk sounds like a toughie...only a few have made it however can't find out how many exactly.

 

Hard to find a comparable event...suggestions?

To address RM's original concern, and given that thousands have successfully climbed Everest, perhaps we need a new metaphor for the solo RTW stuff.

 

So, what difficult adventure is there, that has roughly the same number of wackos (77 or so, evidently) that have done it?

 

Looking at the top mountain challenges, it appears that many more have done all of them than have gone solo RTW, however the death rates are much higher (130 have successfully climbed Annapurna, however the death rate 41%, yow!). Baintha Brakk sounds like a toughie...only a few have made it however can't find out how many exactly.

 

Hard to find a comparable event...suggestions?

The Ogre, aka Baintha Braak has seen three (3) successful ascents. 7 climbers total. Bonington, Scott, Huber, Stocker, Wolf, Kennedy, Dempster.

 

Latok remains unclimbed.

So what you're saying is that Latok is like the Everest of mountain climbing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a REALLY long queue...I don't know if I could hack it. They should hire some velvet rope guys from Vegas so if you show up with hot chicks, they let you through to the front!

 

 

So this is my cranky old man moment.

 

I am browsing the Newport Bermuda site the other day and see a posted article by a skipper who did the race for the first time in 2012 and is sharing his thoughts for other people contemplating doing the race. "How nice", I thought to myself. Somebody who is generous with their experience and hopeful that others will get to have the same joy they got from ocean racing.

 

My good cheer lasted about five or six paragraphs, until in the middle of an explanation about safety he wrote "The Newport Bermuda Race is the Everest of sailing".

 

Really? A 635 mile jaunt that might take a longish weekend to complete is the same as the world's tallest mountain, located in the remote regions of Nepal?

 

 

Could be an accurate description, here's the line up for Everest.

 

everest_002.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of the "Everest" of sailing, why not just settle on the "Apollo 13" of sailing and call it good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What Clean said is so true; we are sailing over countless dead bodies out there. Especially when going around the horn, etc.

 

During the 02/03 Around Alone, I had to stop at Port Stanley in the Falklands to repair the broken boom (2nd time I broke it). One evening, some of the wonderful locals who were helping us took us to dinner (me and Erich Chase, our carbon repair guru who flew in on the once-a-week plane).

 

On the wall in the restaurant was an old chart printed with notes and little diagrams's where hundreds of recorded lost ships were recorded. On the Southwest side of the island (where much of the wind comes from) there were very few notes. I brought up that this was odd, given that many ships would have been lost there on the lee shore. Whereupon a knowledgable local pointed out that the SW side of the island was a lot of sheer cliffs, and so the ships lost there would have been dashed away without a trace. Never recorded, just gone.

 

Made me quiet for a while.

 

B

 

^^This.

 

Cape Horn is the Everest of sailing - especially when you're racing around it.

 

The Vendee sailors do it "without O2" (solo-non-stop) - the VOR sailors "with O2". But I think it's a very apt comparison.

 

The Newport-Bermuda? Please. Not even the vaunted Sydney-Hobart can make that claim. Those might be 5.11 sport climbs. They're not anywhere NEAR "Mount Everest Epic".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sailed to the outer harbor. Where's my medal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe it should be compared to defeating the Nazis....

Still laughing. I'm gonna use that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Newport Bermuda is Everest then that makes the vendee globe going to the moon and back

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what is Everest of Sailing is a question of preception, right now my Everest is surviving this day in the office, tomorrow my Everest will be something else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what is Everest of Sailing is a question of preception, right now my Everest is surviving this day in the office, tomorrow my Everest will be something else.

 

You should see a shrink for that. There are some great medications out there for anxiety, etc...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Finn glad to hear ur days are full of sunshine and never a shit day in ur life,care to share the recepie?

 

we all have our personal Everest..and it is Everest cose the average human imagines everest=highest=hardest, this sounds better than K2 of Sailing or walkingtothesouthpoleandback of sailing, sounds heroic and they need to sell the race to those who are not into sailing that much.

 

Msafiri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites