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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Barnyb

Team France

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Quite interesting, Mich' Desj' on V&V (asking for the customary g-tran assistance)

 

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/course-regate/michel-desjoyeaux-pas-de-vendee-globe/deliaPreview=1/

 

Voilesetvoiliers.com : Team France pour la Coupe de lAmerica, cest encore dactualité ?

M. D. : On nen parle pas beaucoup, mais on a eu le droit à un petit sursis parce quil ny a plus de deuxième versement à faire dans les mois qui viennent. Un AC-45 est en transit entre les États-Unis et la Bretagne Sud Les catamarans sont désormais équipés de foils pour voler, mais tout reste monotype daprès un système issu de Prada et implanté par les teams : il y a juste à découper le puits de dérive pour le remplacer par le nouveau puits de foil. On devrait pouvoir naviguer dès le mois davril, avec quatre rendez-vous en course : Cagliari (4-7 juin), Portsmouth (23-26 juillet), Göthenburg (28-30 août), Bermudes (16-18 octobre). Mais ça ne compte pas pour la Coupe de lAmerica, cest juste un Championnat à cinq teams dont trois ont plusieurs bateaux ce qui devrait faire huit ou neuf AC-45.

 

 

Voilesetvoiliers.com : Mais on ne sait pas quel équipage à bord et quel team designer pour lAC-72 ?

M. D. : Il faut attendre un peu Mais ça avance puisque nous avons suffisamment dargent pour participer au circuit 2015 ! On a une short-list prête mais pour linstant, nous navons pas le budget pour la Coupe de lAmerica mais on na pas jeté léponge.

 

So:

 

1) He says the second $1M installment for the entry fee has been eliminated (why am I not surprised?)

 

2) They are getting an AC45 (from the Tooth Fairy, presumably) and have enough funds to race it in 2015

 

3) The One-Design foiling mods have been developed by LR and only require swapping the daggerboard cases

 

4) Three teams should enter two boats in the ACWS, for a total of eight boats

 

5) They have no budget yet for the AC proper, but aren't throwing in the towel ..

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Quite interesting, Mich' Desj' on V&V (asking for the customary g-tran assistance)

 

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/course-regate/michel-desjoyeaux-pas-de-vendee-globe/deliaPreview=1/

 

Voilesetvoiliers.com : Team France pour la Coupe de lAmerica, cest encore dactualité ?

M. D. : On nen parle pas beaucoup, mais on a eu le droit à un petit sursis parce quil ny a plus de deuxième versement à faire dans les mois qui viennent. Un AC-45 est en transit entre les États-Unis et la Bretagne Sud Les catamarans sont désormais équipés de foils pour voler, mais tout reste monotype daprès un système issu de Prada et implanté par les teams : il y a juste à découper le puits de dérive pour le remplacer par le nouveau puits de foil. On devrait pouvoir naviguer dès le mois davril, avec quatre rendez-vous en course : Cagliari (4-7 juin), Portsmouth (23-26 juillet), Göthenburg (28-30 août), Bermudes (16-18 octobre). Mais ça ne compte pas pour la Coupe de lAmerica, cest juste un Championnat à cinq teams dont trois ont plusieurs bateaux ce qui devrait faire huit ou neuf AC-45.

 

 

Voilesetvoiliers.com : Mais on ne sait pas quel équipage à bord et quel team designer pour lAC-72 ?

M. D. : Il faut attendre un peu Mais ça avance puisque nous avons suffisamment dargent pour participer au circuit 2015 ! On a une short-list prête mais pour linstant, nous navons pas le budget pour la Coupe de lAmerica mais on na pas jeté léponge.

So:

 

1) He says the second $1M installment for the entry fee has been eliminated (why am I not surprised?)

That's is called doing business with the french battle.

 

2) They are getting an AC45 (from the Tooth Fairy, presumably) and have enough funds to race it in 2015

Your french isn't up to date, they share a AC 45 together with the Etats Units (United States)

 

3) The One-Design foiling mods have been developed by LR and only require swapping the daggerboard cases

Now that's smart.

 

4) Three teams should enter two boats in the ACWS, for a total of eight boats.

5) They have no budget yet for the AC proper, but aren't throwing in the towel ..

Strange, they spent billions in super maxi-trimarans built in carbon. (mostly in the Multiplast Yard) But they do not invest in the cup.

 

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Franck Cammas now, on Course Au Large

 

http://www.courseaularge.com/articles/30083/Une-saison-chargee-pour-Franck-Cammas.html

 

En attendant de disposer du Diam 24, Franck et son équipage découvriront l'AC45 racheté par Mer Agitée à Russell Coutts et loué par Groupama. Mais avant de naviguer dans sa nouvelle version monotype volante, le catamaran noir carbone va passer près de deux mois dans la base lorientaise pour que les puits de dérive soient remplacés par des puits de foils : « Notre participation au circuit des ACWS est importante car c'est le résultat de nombreux mois de travail avec Team France. Groupama me soutient fidèlement dans cette quête d'excellence même si nous savons que l'America's Cup n'entre pas dans leurs objectifs. Avec Louis Viat, nous avons une bonne expérience grâce à Groupama C et ca devrait nous aider même si les autres équipes s'entraînent déjà à l'heure actuelle. C'est important d'y être en étant performant pour montrer que les Français sont à l'aise sur ce genre de bateaux sur un format proche de celui de la Coupe qui est notre ambition à terme ».

 

So:

 

- TF's AC45 is chartered by Groupama, which however will not be involved in the AC

 

- the boat will have to spend a couple of months (??) in Lorient for the installation of new/ foiling daggerboard cases

 

In addition to the ACWS, 2015 will see Cammas still vying for the French Nacra 17 olympic slot, the Tour de France à la Voile with the Diam 24 tri, and the LAC in Geneva ..

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That is an interesting interview.

- why does Mer agitée buys it and then rents it to Groupama ? because another sponsor may appear for the AC ?

- why do they want to modify the AC45 for the ACWS, isn't OD modified by OR ?

- "C'est important d'y être en étant performant pour montrer que les Français sont à l'aise sur ce genre de bateaux sur un format proche de celui de la Coupe qui est notre ambition à terme ».

It's important to be competitive in order to show that the french master this kind of boats that are close from the Cup which is our long term ambition.

It seems that they are chasing another sponsor but it sounds like last AC.

When I think that Airbus went with Oracle...

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I gather the the teams are expected to modify their 45's to the foiling one design rule themselves... Which would make more sense than shipping all boats back to a particular yard to have the modifications done

 

Thinking about it, the modifications might be based on a kit of standard parts which is made available by a particular builder.

 

Whatever, I don't think OR is responsible for modifying any other team boats to the OD rule...

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I gather the the teams are expected to modify their 45's to the foiling one design rule themselves... Which would make more sense than shipping all boats back to a particular yard to have the modifications done

 

Thinking about it, the modifications might be based on a kit of standard parts which is made available by a particular builder.

 

Whatever, I don't think OR is responsible for modifying any other team boats to the OD rule...

You are correct, I was willing to mention Ore. And you may be right to say that the OD kit may be put in place by each team.

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^ This was discussed on the 'New AC45' thread IIRC, when TF made the statement (in French) about a week ago that...

 

- the AC45Fs are based on the LR design

- a foil box kit (+rudders and foils presumably) would be purchased and fitted by each team

- 3 teams plan to race 2 boats, making 9 AC45Fs altogether to compete in the ACWS

 

3 months to go.

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Dans sa démarche d’accompagnement de Franck vers l’excellence, Groupama soutient fidèlement son skipper sur la saison 2015 des Americas Cup World Series.

"Grâce à Groupama, nous allons affronter les meilleurs équipages au monde sur les bateaux de demain, ceux qui volent. Ca va être passionnant. Avec Louis Viat, nous avons une bonne expérience grâce à Groupama C et ça devrait nous aider même si les autres équipes s'entraînent déjà à l'heure actuelle. C'est le plus haut niveau mondial et c'est important d'y être en étant performant pour montrer que les Français sont à l'aise sur ce genre de bateaux sur un format proche de celui de la Coupe qui est notre ambition à terme ». Franck Cammas.

Découvrez le programme de la saison 2015 de Franck et de Groupama sailing team

In its approach in support of franck towards excellence, groupama supports faithfully skipper on the 2015 season of the americas cup world series.

' thanks to groupama, we will tackle the best crews in the world on the ships of tomorrow, those Who steal. It's going to be exciting. With louis viat, we have had a good experience thanks to groupama c and it should help us even if The other teams train already at the present time. This is the highest global level and it is important to be there by being efficient To show that the french are comfortable on this kind of vessels on a format close to Cup which is our ambition to term '. Franck cammas.

Discover the program of the 2015 season of frank and groupama sailing team

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Really cool of Groupama to do this - but then any publicity is good publicity.

 

Big question though, if Cammas does well in the ACWS, how hard will he be leaning on them to continue on with the AC proper?

 

As things stand now, there must be a point at which they will part company for the AC, but Cammas will most probably not want to jeopardise his extremely profitable long term relationship with Groupama...

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post-17796-0-57218200-1424949712_thumb.jpg

Don't underestimate the role of Michel Desjoyeaux.

He pulverised the record on the Carribean 600 as a skipper for Pheado 3.

Both very good sailors, but will they get their finance right?

post-17796-0-12035100-1424949750_thumb.jpeg

 

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Really cool of Groupama to do this - but then any publicity is good publicity.

 

Big question though, if Cammas does well in the ACWS, how hard will he be leaning on them to continue on with the AC proper?

 

As things stand now, there must be a point at which they will part company for the AC, but Cammas will most probably not want to jeopardise his extremely profitable long term relationship with Groupama...

 

He can't find anyone to pony up for the big show. He is in the same position as Aleph last time, with about the same chance of getting any further.

 

Best he can probably hope for is to become the 'BAR' of AC35, ie be in a better position visibility-wise for AC36

 

Cammas seems to want to eat all the cakes! Can it work?

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Really cool of Groupama to do this - but then any publicity is good publicity.

 

Big question though, if Cammas does well in the ACWS, how hard will he be leaning on them to continue on with the AC proper?

 

As things stand now, there must be a point at which they will part company for the AC, but Cammas will most probably not want to jeopardise his extremely profitable long term relationship with Groupama...

 

He can't find anyone to pony up for the big show. He is in the same position as Aleph last time, with about the same chance of getting any further.

 

Best he can probably hope for is to become the 'BAR' of AC35, ie be in a better position visibility- feasibility wise for AC36

 

Cammas seems to want to eat all the cakes! Can it work?

 

Fixed that for you. The french do things really different then the rest of the world.

This attempt might work, they have the whiz-kid kind of approach that in the last moment every-thing comes right.

They (the french) have very extensively experience in multihull sailing and racewinning sailtechnology.

 

I am looking forward to this 35th cup. It will be cutting edge. And not only between ETNZ and Oracle.

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^ Not with you. Splitting hairs over visibility/feasibility? 2 sides of the same coin aren't they?

 

No one doubts the French tech and sailing ability. But tell me, what % chance do you give this team of building an AC62 and taking part in the 2 AC62 series that precede the AC Match?

 

How much further ahead of previous attempts are they? How much better off would they be after 2 'seasons' of ACWS?

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^ Not with you. Splitting hairs over visibility/feasibility? 2 sides of the same coin aren't they?

 

No one doubts the French tech and sailing ability. But tell me, what % chance do you give this team of building an AC62 and taking part in the 2 AC62 series that precede the AC Match?

 

How much further ahead of previous attempts are they? How much better off would they be after 2 'seasons' of ACWS?

In their first attempt they might be as succesfull as Alinghi.

The chance when you compete for the second time might be even less as the first time since you keep repeating where you went wrong in the first place.

 

And visibility is something that you can or cannot see. where feasibility means if you can achieve it.

And English is not my first language. I did a lot of feasibiltystudies,, only trying to help.

 

I really believe in this team. Franck Cammas won the VOR as a debutant as well.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franck_Cammas

 

I only doubt if they get their financial plan working in time.

They are behind schedule compared to the rest.

Or... They keep everything top-secret.

Edited by schakel

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With the grey/white roundels, it definitely looks like an ex Oracle boat... they'd better check the kingpost before Cagliari! ;)

 

Zooming in on the one photo, you can see that the boat's serial number is AC450005. Definitely Oracle's.

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With the grey/white roundels, it definitely looks like an ex Oracle boat... they'd better check the kingpost before Cagliari! ;)

 

No forward kingpost on an AC45F (for obvious and not so obvious reasons) ;)

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With the grey/white roundels, it definitely looks like an ex Oracle boat... they'd better check the kingpost before Cagliari! ;)

 

No forward kingpost on an AC45F (for obvious and not so obvious reasons) ;)

 

Who said the cheating was limited to the king post ? :)

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Really cool of Groupama to do this - but then any publicity is good publicity.

 

Big question though, if Cammas does well in the ACWS, how hard will he be leaning on them to continue on with the AC proper?

 

As things stand now, there must be a point at which they will part company for the AC, but Cammas will most probably not want to jeopardise his extremely profitable long term relationship with Groupama...

 

He can't find anyone to pony up for the big show. He is in the same position as Aleph last time, with about the same chance of getting any further.

 

Best he can probably hope for is to become the 'BAR' of AC35, ie be in a better position visibility- feasibility wise for AC36

 

Cammas seems to want to eat all the cakes! Can it work?

 

Fixed that for you. The french do things really different then the rest of the world.

This attempt might work, they have the whiz-kid kind of approach that in the last moment every-thing comes right.

They (the french) have very extensively experience in multihull sailing and racewinning sailtechnology.

 

I am looking forward to this 35th cup. It will be cutting edge. And not only between ETNZ and Oracle.

 

 

That plan worked out really well for AC34.

 

I think AC 35 will be just as successful for them .

 

We heard how once the AC went to multi no one would have a chance against the mighty french.

 

We are still waiting 5 years later.

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^ Dennis got desperate and took the AC 'multi' in 1988.

 

(Despite the NYYC specifically preventing multis from competing openly against monos 100 years earlier)

 

But I agree, the French have notably failed to live up to their potential so far - and I will be pleased, but very surprised, if they do better this time.

 

There is always the chance LE (RC) will fund the opposition (a la EB) to give his 'vision' a bit more credibility?

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Thing is, the AC has very little commercial or sporting value in France.

 

Considering their continued domination in so many areas of ocean racing, and the huge amounts of exposure that brings for their sponsors, there is no real motivation for any of the major players to quit what they are doing and mount an assault on the auld mug, whatever the dreams of the individual sailors might be.

 

If Cammas can pull of an 'and/and' scenario, that would be great, and at least he has got Groupama to walk with him at least part of the way. This is more than either Energy or Aleph had managed in the previous cycle.

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More than??

 

Aleph and Energy did not compete in ACẂS rounds then?

 

And have TF got that far yet? (and that's after jimmying of the rules to get them in the gate)

 

Good luck and all - but keep it real...

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^ Groupama is paying Cammas to use his own boat, that OTUSA gave him, probably a few sheckles a month - a real big deal!

 

Along with announcing that they have no intention of funding his 'AC campaign'.

 

Or do you know more?

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Compared to the last AC,I will be very happy if the 4 "real" challengers show up with competitive AC62s.So far I believe AR, BAR and TNZ will do just that while LR will make a fashion statement!

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Thing is, the AC has very little commercial or sporting value in France.

 

Considering their continued domination in so many areas of ocean racing, and the huge amounts of exposure that brings for their sponsors, there is no real motivation for any of the major players to quit what they are doing and mount an assault on the auld mug, whatever the dreams of the individual sailors might be.

 

If Cammas can pull of an 'and/and' scenario, that would be great, and at least he has got Groupama to walk with him at least part of the way. This is more than either Energy or Aleph had managed in the previous cycle.

The French are very chauvinistic I think. As long as they haven't won the cup they would say. "No, that's not our game".

Once they won it they will get very much public attention and crowds. Which is very good for advertisement.

 

Sailing news is front page news in France. The french are very sailing minded.

Example: Crowd at the start of the Vendee Globe in Sable d 'Olonne.

post-17796-0-27883600-1425114676_thumb.jpg

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Compared to the last AC,I will be very happy if the 4 "real" challengers show up with competitive AC62s.So far I believe AR, BAR and TNZ will do just that while LR will make a fashion statement!

 

LR give every appearance of being serious, organised, timely and well financed - (more so than BAR and ETNZ anyway) do you dismiss their abilities for any particular reason?

 

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From my very limited exposure to French sailing, there is massive interest and participation in sailing here, but very little interest in round the cans sailing other than Olympic training in Olympic classes or feeder classes for a limited few. Our sailing club doesn't organise any weekly buoy racing, despite being one of the major sailing clubs in Brittany, and this appears to be pretty typical both here and further south. The club does organise long distance beach cat raids, however, and these are well attended both by competitors and spectators.

 

Pro sailing is well supported, but is almost 100% commercial, and the commercial pot is limited. There is no way that the pro offshore sailing could be maintained at the current level if enough commercial resources were syphoned off into an AC campaign, even one funded to "French" levels, and as such it would be a serious issue for French offshore sailing if this was to occur. I can't see an AC campaign returning anything like the ROI from an offshore campaign from the French public, so very difficult to imagine this being achieved.

 

I only see a viable French challenge coming as a vanity project for a wealthy investor, and whilst there are plenty here, none with inshore racing interests of this magnitude that I am aware of. Whilst I wish TF all the best, I would personally hate to see an AC campaign in any form detract from the offshore projects here, which are really exciting at the moment. However, this generation of French sailors/designers/constructors have shown they can win at any level, talent will not be a reason for failure of an AC campaign.

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From my very limited exposure to French sailing, there is massive interest and participation in sailing here, but very little interest in round the cans sailing other than Olympic training in Olympic classes or feeder classes for a limited few. Our sailing club doesn't organise any weekly buoy racing, despite being one of the major sailing clubs in Brittany, and this appears to be pretty typical both here and further south. The club does organise long distance beach cat raids, however, and these are well attended both by competitors and spectators.

 

Pro sailing is well supported, but is almost 100% commercial, and the commercial pot is limited. There is no way that the pro offshore sailing could be maintained at the current level if enough commercial resources were syphoned off into an AC campaign, even one funded to "French" levels, and as such it would be a serious issue for French offshore sailing if this was to occur. I can't see an AC campaign returning anything like the ROI from an offshore campaign from the French public, so very difficult to imagine this being achieved.

 

I only see a viable French challenge coming as a vanity project for a wealthy investor, and whilst there are plenty here, none with inshore racing interests of this magnitude that I am aware of. Whilst I wish TF all the best, I would personally hate to see an AC campaign in any form detract from the offshore projects here, which are really exciting at the moment. However, this generation of French sailors/designers/constructors have shown they can win at any level, talent will not be a reason for failure of an AC campaign.

 

+1

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From my very limited exposure to French sailing, there is massive interest and participation in sailing here, but very little interest in round the cans sailing other than Olympic training in Olympic classes or feeder classes for a limited few.

You might want to look at the vast entry for Spi Ouest, which is a round the cans regatta.

 

Personally I've travelled to France for regatta-type sailing quite a few times. There's plenty going on.

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From my very limited exposure to French sailing, there is massive interest and participation in sailing here, but very little interest in round the cans sailing other than Olympic training in Olympic classes or feeder classes for a limited few. Our sailing club doesn't organise any weekly buoy racing, despite being one of the major sailing clubs in Brittany, and this appears to be pretty typical both here and further south. The club does organise long distance beach cat raids, however, and these are well attended both by competitors and spectators.

 

Pro sailing is well supported, but is almost 100% commercial, and the commercial pot is limited. There is no way that the pro offshore sailing could be maintained at the current level if enough commercial resources were syphoned off into an AC campaign, even one funded to "French" levels, and as such it would be a serious issue for French offshore sailing if this was to occur. I can't see an AC campaign returning anything like the ROI from an offshore campaign from the French public, so very difficult to imagine this being achieved.

 

I only see a viable French challenge coming as a vanity project for a wealthy investor, and whilst there are plenty here, none with inshore racing interests of this magnitude that I am aware of. Whilst I wish TF all the best, I would personally hate to see an AC campaign in any form detract from the offshore projects here, which are really exciting at the moment. However, this generation of French sailors/designers/constructors have shown they can win at any level, talent will not be a reason for failure of an AC campaign.

+agreed.

The French like to be the big fish in the small pond.

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+agreed.

The French like to be the big fish in the small pond.

 

Yep, they prefer spending millions on Ocean races with no wind limits, Larry prefers spendings hundreds of millions in a pond a few feet deep with 12 -14 kts winds. That's glory.

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From my very limited exposure to French sailing, there is massive interest and participation in sailing here, but very little interest in round the cans sailing other than Olympic training in Olympic classes or feeder classes for a limited few.

You might want to look at the vast entry for Spi Ouest, which is a round the cans regatta.

 

Personally I've travelled to France for regatta-type sailing quite a few times. There's plenty going on.

 

There are many events like Spi Ouest, Carnac, the Raids, etc, which are international events and are well supported, but the majority of clubs here do not run any regular racing for their club members every weekend, or Wednesday evening, or whatever. Coming from the UK club culture this has been a real surprise to me.

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+agreed.

The French like to be the big fish in the small pond.

Yep, they prefer spending millions on Ocean races with no wind limits, Larry prefers spendings hundreds of millions in a pond a few feet deep with 12 -14 kts winds. That's glory.

 

I'd rather have 100's of millions in a pond - the depth of the water never attracted me to a race and it's more fun to watch because the TV coverage in the ocean sucks.

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Gtran of http://www.letelegramme.fr/voile/cammas-navigue-en-ac45-a-lorient-01-03-2015-10542044.php

--

In recent days, the AC45 bought by Sea Sheaf Russell Coutts and praised by Groupama crosses Lorient harbor. Franck Cammas and his crew get to know this carbon black catamaran that will go under construction in its base in Lorient so that daggerboard be replaced by foils wells. In a little less than two months, it will be apparent in his flying release. "Our participation in ACWS circuit is important because it is the result of many months of work with Team France. Groupama faithfully supports me in this quest for excellence even though we know that the America's Cup is not within their objectives. Thanks to them, we will face the best teams in the world on ships of tomorrow, those who steal. It will be exciting. Louis Viat (teammate with whom he won the small America's Cup), we have good experience with Groupama C and it should help us even if other teams are already training at present. It is the world's highest level and it's important to be as efficient to show that the French are comfortable on this type of boats on a format similar to that of the Cup is our term ambition "explains Franck Cammas. In Cagliari, Portsmouth, Gothenburg and finally Bermuda, the French crew therefore face the Americans, New Zealanders, Italians, English, Swedish and Japanese. If things had advanced late December and early January, confirming the presence of the French challenge in the next edition of the America's Cup did not come. G. D.

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.. face the Americans, New Zealanders, Italians, English, Swedish and Japanese. ?? :D

 

While things had advanced late December and early January, the confirmation of the presence of the French challenge in the next edition of the America's Cup did not come. G. D.

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Groupama faithfully supports me in this quest for excellence even though we know that the America's Cup is not within their objectives.

 

So what was that you were saying about there being no place in AC35 for ACWS-only teams?

...and that TF only got in by 'mistake'?

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^

Well, there's Prot.25.7 allowing non-challenger ACWS entrants. Except of course TF was advertised as a bona fide challenger from the start

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Groupama faithfully supports me in this quest for excellence even though we know that the America's Cup is not within their objectives.

So what was that you were saying about there being no place in AC35 for ACWS-only teams?

...and that TF only got in by 'mistake'?

My guess is that Cammas was able to convince Coutts he had a realistic chance to make it, and so TF was 'vetted' and allowed in. Later, whoever that anticipated sponsor was, chose to not proceed with it. There was a piece on CNN Mainsail from around that time, Shirley following Cammas around as he did presentations to sponsors, it looked reasonably optimistic back at the time.

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^ What makes you think they care one way or the other whether a team can go right through or not? Numbers, spin & $$ and 'product' are what count right? The commercial cup.

 

and this ... bought by Sea Sheaf Russell Coutts and praised by Groupama

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+agreed.

The French like to be the big fish in the small pond.

Yep, they prefer spending millions on Ocean races with no wind limits, Larry prefers spendings hundreds of millions in a pond a few feet deep with 12 -14 kts winds. That's glory.

 

I'd rather have 100's of millions in a pond - the depth of the water never attracted me to a race and it's more fun to watch because the TV coverage in the ocean sucks.

 

You clearly have never watched the VOR or are just trolling as usual.

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+agreed.

The French like to be the big fish in the small pond.

Yep, they prefer spending millions on Ocean races with no wind limits, Larry prefers spendings hundreds of millions in a pond a few feet deep with 12 -14 kts winds. That's glory.

 

I'd rather have 100's of millions in a pond - the depth of the water never attracted me to a race and it's more fun to watch because the TV coverage in the ocean sucks.

 

You clearly have never watched the VOR or are just trolling as usual.

 

Ocean racing is especially good to follow for the internet addicts that most of the Anarchist are.

It is slow but every day there is something happening on the boats. Internieuws, E-mails tactics.

And they visit the most interesting port towns of the world.

 

The down side is that the ocean is a harsh and rough environment.

You need a mountaineer spirit to like it.

The photo's taken from the boats and the coast that they visits reads like a National Geographic Magazine.

 

I follow Volvo Ocean Race, Route du Rhum, Vendee Globe and Sydney/Hobart Transpac, Barcelona round the world race.

Most of these races are frontpage news on SA, so there must be something attractive to it.

 

The America's cup has something crazy around it. Yesterday I read a post somewhere that someone wasn't interested in how shallow the race track of AC 35 was. Duhh,,, until you hit a reef with 20 Nm an hour....

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OT, but so sad about Florence Arthaud - and what a silly way to go after such an interesting life .. Met her in the late eighties at La Trinité-sur-Mer - like many French offshore sailors, she struck me for being so petite

 

http://www.courseaularge.com/articles/30169/Florence-Arthaud-perit-dans-un-crash-d-helicopteres.html

Here a photo of here in the 1990 Route du Rhum with the open 60 trimaran "Pierre 1er".

She ended first and was the first woman to win the Route du Rhum line honours.

And then she ends up in a helicopter collision; a sillly accident with fatal consequences for 10 casualities.

post-17796-0-01628800-1425987059_thumb.jpg

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OT, but so sad about Florence Arthaud - and what a silly way to go after such an interesting life .. Met her in the late eighties at La Trinité-sur-Mer - like many French offshore sailors, she struck me for being so petite

 

http://www.courseaularge.com/articles/30169/Florence-Arthaud-perit-dans-un-crash-d-helicopteres.html

a bit cynical, but she went with a big bang, down in flames ... maybe better than wither away somewhere silently ?

will always have a grin at one of her funniest quotes in the sailing magazine Thalassa on FR3 : was not long after her Pierre 1 victory and she mentioned that she didn't like those airplanes doing a flyby once in a while and certainly when nearing the finish. When asked why that would annoy her she answered : each time they fly by I have to scramble and put on some clothes... not nice :lol: , petite et chaude !

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I had seen her a few years ago in Brest, she was still looking good.

This woman was more at ease on a boat than on land. She beated Bruno Peyron record on the North Atlantic, alone on her boat and has been crewing for Peyron, Kersauzon, Péan.

 

Sad to her finish that way after all she did on the ocean.

Picture206.png

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In the New Zealand AC thread the following was yesterday discussed:

 

Stingray~, on 15 Mar 2015 - 3:07 PM, said:snapback.png

I think much of it is moot because only 4 challengers will build AC62s anyway.

ro! said: Must be more because months ago clean said that team France were 'fully funded'...
It was the same day that you said bar are 'fully funded'....

 

How much of this is true?

 

I placed a personal message on their Facebook page and asked them the following:

There are rumours team France is not going to build a 62 footer catamaran for the 35th america's cup because lack of funding. Is that true?

I sincerely would regret that because you have very talented yachtmen. And the knowledge of catamarans and yards to build the winner for the 35th cup.

 

They are still portraited on their Facebook page with the cup and there is no official withdrawal from team France. (although it is very very quiet)

post-17796-0-92037800-1426494351_thumb.jpg

 

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From my very limited exposure to French sailing, there is massive interest and participation in sailing here, but very little interest in round the cans sailing other than Olympic training in Olympic classes or feeder classes for a limited few.

You might want to look at the vast entry for Spi Ouest, which is a round the cans regatta.

 

Personally I've travelled to France for regatta-type sailing quite a few times. There's plenty going on.

 

There are many events like Spi Ouest, Carnac, the Raids, etc, which are international events and are well supported, but the majority of clubs here do not run any regular racing for their club members every weekend, or Wednesday evening, or whatever. Coming from the UK club culture this has been a real surprise to me.

 

in many places there are "entrainements d'hiver" every week or fortnight.

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From my very limited exposure to French sailing, there is massive interest and participation in sailing here, but very little interest in round the cans sailing other than Olympic training in Olympic classes or feeder classes for a limited few.

You might want to look at the vast entry for Spi Ouest, which is a round the cans regatta.

 

Personally I've travelled to France for regatta-type sailing quite a few times. There's plenty going on.

 

There are many events like Spi Ouest, Carnac, the Raids, etc, which are international events and are well supported, but the majority of clubs here do not run any regular racing for their club members every weekend, or Wednesday evening, or whatever. Coming from the UK club culture this has been a real surprise to me.

 

in many places there are "entrainements d'hiver" every week or fortnight.

 

Lots of "pay to play" training events around, but I'm referring to regular club racing for members using ther own boats.

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With the smaller boat we can imagine that a budget between €15-20 million would be enough to win the America’s Cup.”

 

That I'd like to see!

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a G-tran of this: http://www.letelegramme.fr/voile/trop-chere-america-s-cup-27-03-2015-10573813.php

 

--

Faced with financial difficulties of several unions, the organizers of the 35th America's Cup seriously considering replacing large catamarans from 19 m (AC62) with smaller than 14 m (AC45), less expensive for editing 2017 Bermuda. Team France rubs his hands, Franck Cammas first ... Franck Cammas, what's happening on the Cup? The organizers realized that the challengers failed to balance the budgets. You could see the Oracle AC45 Americans and Swedes Artemis fly in San Francisco Bay in recent weeks, they saw that these small catamarans offered entertainment and beautiful images. All this gave the idea to Russell Coutts, the organizer, to propose a change in the rules, to the Cup on a 45-foot catamaran. And so significantly reduce costs. It is so difficult to sell an America's Cup project? Yes, funding is an obstacle on which one stumbles over a year. The Cup remains a fantasy with Pharaonic figures. In the minds of people is something unattainable. An AC62 catamaran (1) ready to sail, it's 10 million excluding taxes. A loan AC45 to navigate, it is less than 4 million. The clear objective is to be able to compete in the America's Cup for less than 20 million. Over three years, it gives budgets of less than 7 million euros. This is a real revolution. It is this need more than a glass of billionaires but a product accessible to partners. Or are you in the search for partners precisely? This allows us to open doors that were closed when evoked budget of € 50 million or more. Early 2014, we were looking for 72 million euros. Now we try a little less than 20 million euros, with the purchase of a design-package on a team. We have contacts remain confidential but is beginning to present a new offer to partners interested in the project. When given the new figures, they ask us "but with this money, you are able to go there and then to win?". The answer is yes to both questions. It will have the same opportunities as other technical standpoint. After that, the sailors to make a difference. True, but nothing is official yet and Italians are strongly opposed (2) to support change ... It is understandable that the Italians are against because it's been a year they work on the big boat but there is a general awareness that the Cup can not continue like this. If it is to become sustainable, we must first change order, no small change. I think if there is no change, it is very wrong. For comparison, the Vendée Globe is around € 5 million per year with construction of a new boat and Ultimate (note: maxi-trimaran) is a global budget of 20 million euros. When could be made that decision? Before the end of this March, so it will happen very quickly. We have already been switched with this format then because I think the probability is high. If we take the floor today, it's also because the organizer has made official this discussion and this project. 1. The last edition was won by the Americans on Oracle AC72, a flying catamaran 72 feet (22 meters) with a rigid wing, facing the New Zealanders. The initially selected for the 35th edition is a prototype AC62. The AC45 (13.45 m) are the boats used for the America's Cup World Series. 2. They are threatening to withdraw from the 35th.

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^

Excellent SR, well worth while to make the effort of going through the G-tran, gives one very good side of the argument (not mine, but it doesn't matter).

 

Rather, TC, what do you make of this: ", avec l'achat d'un design-package sur une équipe en place. "

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^

Excellent SR, well worth while to make the effort of going through the G-tran, gives one very good side of the argument (not mine, but it doesn't matter).

 

Rather, TC, what do you make of this: ", avec l'achat d'un design-package sur une équipe en place. "

^^ First, it's funny that SR got a document that I could not open in french because I did not pay !!!

 

It translates as: " buying a design package from an existing team "

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The video wouldn't play for me, but here's the French, presumably a transcript
--
Voile Trop chère America's Cup ! 27 mars 2015 à 07h37/ Recueilli par Philippe Eliès / Face aux difficultés financières de plusieurs syndicats, les organisateurs de la 35e Coupe de l'America envisagent très sérieusement de remplacer les grands catamarans de 19 m (AC62) par des plus petits de 14 m (AC45), moins onéreux, pour l'édition en 2017 aux Bermudes. Le Team France se frotte les mains, Franck Cammas le premier...

 

Franck Cammas, que se passe-t-il sur la Cup ? Les organisateurs se sont rendu compte que les challengers n'arrivaient pas à boucler les budgets. On voyait les AC45 des Américains d'Oracle et des Suédois d'Artémis voler en baie de San Francisco ces dernières semaines, ils ont vu que ces petits catamarans offraient du spectacle et de belles images. Tout ça a donné l'idée à Russell Coutts, l'organisateur, de proposer un changement des règles, de faire la Cup sur un catamaran de 45 pieds. Et ainsi de réduire considérablement les coûts.

 

C'est si difficile de vendre un projet America's Cup ? Oui, le financement est un obstacle sur lequel on bute depuis un an. La Cup reste un fantasme avec des chiffres pharaoniques. Dans l'esprit des gens, c'est quelque chose d'inaccessible. Un catamaran AC62 (1) prêt à naviguer, c'est 10 millions d'euros hors taxes. Un AC45 prêt à naviguer, c'est moins de 4 millions d'euros. L'objectif clairement affiché, c'est de pouvoir disputer la Coupe de l'America pour moins de 20 millions d'euros. Sur trois ans, cela donne des budgets de moins de 7 millions d'euros. Il s'agit d'une vraie révolution. Il ne faut plus que ce soit une coupe de milliardaires mais un produit accessible pour des partenaires.

 

Ou en êtes-vous dans la recherche de partenaires justement ? Cela nous permet de rouvrir des portes qui étaient fermées lorsqu'on évoquait des budgets de 50 millions d'euros et plus. Début 2014, on cherchait 72 millions d'euros. Maintenant, on cherche un tout petit moins de 20 millions d'euros, avec l'achat d'un design-package sur une équipe en place. On a des contacts qui restent confidentiels mais on commence à présenter une nouvelle offre aux partenaires intéressés par le projet. Quand on leur donne les nouveaux chiffres, ils nous demandent " mais avec cet argent-là, vous êtes capables d'y aller et ensuite de gagner ? ". La réponse est oui pour les deux questions. On aura les mêmes chances que les autres d'un point de vue technique. Après, aux marins de faire la différence.

 

Certes, mais rien n'est encore officiel et les Italiens s'opposent fermement (2) à ce changement de support... On peut comprendre que les Italiens soient contre car cela fait un an qu'ils travaillent sur le grand bateau mais il y a une prise de conscience générale que la Cup ne peut pas continuer comme ça. Si on veut qu'elle devienne pérenne, il faut un changement de premier ordre, pas de petites évolutions. Je pense que s'il n'y a pas ce changement, on est très mal. A titre de comparaison, un Vendée Globe, c'est autour de 5 millions d'euros par an avec construction d'un bateau neuf et un Ultime (ndlr : maxi-trimaran), c'est un budget global de 20 millions d'euros.

 

Quand pourrait-être prise cette décision ? Avant la fin de ce mois de mars, donc ça va arriver très vite. Nous, on a déjà basculé avec ce format-là car je pense que la probabilité est forte. Si on prend la parole aujourd'hui, c'est aussi parce que l'organisateur a rendu officiels cette discussion et ce projet. 1. La dernière édition a été remportée par les Américains d'Oracle sur un AC72, un catamaran volant de 72 pieds (22 mètres) équipé d'une aile-rigide, face aux Néo-Zélandais. Le prototype initialement retenu pour la 35e édition est un AC62. Les AC45 (13,45 m) sont les bateaux retenus pour les America's Cup World Series. 2. Ils menacent de se retirer de la 35e édition.

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Thanks:

 

"Début 2014, on cherchait 72 millions d'euros. Maintenant, on cherche un tout petit moins de 20 millions d'euros, avec l'achat d'un design-package sur une équipe en place. On a des contacts qui restent confidentiels mais on commence à présenter une nouvelle offre aux partenaires intéressés par le projet. Quand on leur donne les nouveaux chiffres, ils nous demandent " mais avec cet argent-là, vous êtes capables d'y aller et ensuite de gagner ? ". La réponse est oui pour les deux questions."

 

 

At the beginning of 2014 we were looking for 72 M Euros. Now we look for a bit less than 20 M, with the acquisition of a design package from an existing team. We have confidential contects but we begin to propose a new offers to partners interested in the project. When we present the new figures they ask: " with this amount, do you have the possibility to participate and then win ?" the answer if yes to both questions.

A bit later they say that they understand very well LR as they already began to work on their AC62.

 

I laud their optimism about the figures but...

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Another interesting piece:

 

"Nous, on a déjà basculé avec ce format-là car je pense que la probabilité est forte. Si on prend la parole aujourd'hui, c'est aussi parce que l'organisateur a rendu officiels cette discussion et ce projet"

 

We already began to work on this format as we think the probability is pretty high. If we speak todyay it is because the organizer made this conversation and project official.

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Rather, TC, what do you make of this: ", avec l'achat d'un design-package sur une équipe en place. "

It translates as: " buying a design package from an existing team "

 

That's what I thought, but it seemed improbable: They are looking for a bit less than 20M total, and plan to buy out the design package! Yes folks, this is the team you gain while LR drops out!

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Rather, TC, what do you make of this: ", avec l'achat d'un design-package sur une équipe en place. "

It translates as: " buying a design package from an existing team "

 

That's what I thought, but it seemed improbable: They are looking for a bit less than 20M total, and plan to buy out the design package! Yes folks, this is the team you gain while LR drops out!

 

LR wants to win, a cheaper solution will allow them to concentrate more resources to where it matters. I don't know why they want to bail out...

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More on that ^ straight from the 'butt

 

We are currently going through the final entry process. We look to already have one additional challenger from Asia, and if we downscale the boat we might possibly have two additional teams, plus it would allow the French team to have a competitive budget.

There’s probably no question that the bigger boats are grander, and in some ways more spectacular, but one of the great lessons from the last America’s Cup Final was that if we can have close racing amongst good teams, than that becomes more of the focus.

 

So he claims an Asian team is already in - regardless

 

By doing this they gain another Asian 'possible'

And ensure the survival of the weakest current 'entry' TF

 

close racing amongst good teams

 

Weakening or losing the strongest competitor from AC34 and a very strong and well advanced team in AC35 matters squat apparently in comparison to the above 'gains'!?

Unless you think that's the whole point of course....

Not forgetting that they are giving Teams about 5 days to sign away their rights as future Defenders, based on an unwritten Class Rule.

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Rather, TC, what do you make of this: ", avec l'achat d'un design-package sur une équipe en place. "

It translates as: " buying a design package from an existing team "

That's what I thought, but it seemed improbable: They are looking for a bit less than 20M total, and plan to buy out the design package! Yes folks, this is the team you gain while LR drops out!
But maybe they'll buy LR's design package. I might, it would look good. Take your pick:

- Alfa

- Rover

- Chrysler

- Volvo

- NZ, sheesh - all they build are tractors...

- and oh yeah, don't forget Citroen

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I'm sure we will see LR in AC35 one way or the other, maybe through some kind of compromise.

 

What else are they gonna do with those sexy Silver Suits? Donate them to Team France?

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I doubt Bertelli wrote that dramatic Italian manifesto, was likely some underling wearing silly clothes :)

Classic spinbot, fair and balanced and right on message....let's marginalize Luna Rossa, after all the only thing they bring to the party is shiny clothes...

 

I'll be the first one to point the finger if lazza ever....blah..blah

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Did the 'fuckin hypocrite' obsessive post something useless again?

 

Dang, must be some fancy-ass straight-jacket you're wearing, ro! Care to post anything original-thought about AC current events? Do you think that Patricio, currently in Asia, wrote any of that response?

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Rather, TC, what do you make of this: ", avec l'achat d'un design-package sur une équipe en place. "

It translates as: " buying a design package from an existing team "

 

That's what I thought, but it seemed improbable: They are looking for a bit less than 20M total, and plan to buy out the design package! Yes folks, this is the team you gain while LR drops out!

 

 

My guess: Coutts sells the Oracle design to Cammas and Japan. Gets income, and the ability to test his design against all challengers all the time.

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Yep - Would be a smart move.

 

But I somehow doubt that OR will ever lag design-wise against any design buyer. ETNZ set the standard for that idea but I suspect RC is at least the match of GD on that front.

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Rather, TC, what do you make of this: ", avec l'achat d'un design-package sur une équipe en place. "

It translates as: " buying a design package from an existing team "

 

That's what I thought, but it seemed improbable: They are looking for a bit less than 20M total, and plan to buy out the design package! Yes folks, this is the team you gain while LR drops out!

 

 

My guess: Coutts sells the Oracle design to Cammas and Japan. Gets income, and the ability to test his design against all challengers all the time.

 

worked for etnz last time, and and at least you know you're racing against your boat 1

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I have a confession to make: I don't really believe in Team France. Sure, they:

- showed up for press conferences

- posed for group photos

- were excused from the performance bond

- showed up for another press conference

- shook hands with Mr. America's Cup

- were gifted an AC45

 

- and may cast the deciding vote.

 

Upending the cup.

 

Machiavelli walks among us, and his name is...

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I have a confession to make: I don't really believe in Team France. Sure, they:

- showed up for press conferences

- posed for group photos

- were excused from the performance bond

- showed up for another press conference

- shook hands with Mr. America's Cup

- were gifted an AC45

 

- and may cast the deciding vote.

 

Upending the cup.

 

Machiavelli walks among us, and his name is...

 

If they aren't paid up then perhaps they aren't vote-eligible either.

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Had wondered that earlier. Last time you didn't get to speak on AC72s, CSS, etc if you were just an ACWS-only, AC wannabe.

 

This time?? Just having payed 3 months rent on a thrashed out, kicked out, go directly to CAS, used-to-be-a-Class-legal-AC45, is apparently enough to see you deciding the future of the next 'several' AC Matches - unbelievable!

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on a technical level we'll have the same chances as the others, it's up to the sailors to make the difference


. On aura les mêmes chances que les autres d'un point de vue technique. Après, aux marins de faire la différence.

 

never thought Cammas was not able to grasp the difference between a full one design and a partial one design, there is no way that on a technical level everybody will have same chances, so all of this is "I have a plan, send money" fluff

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