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ALL@SEA

Sydney to Hobart 2014

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something is wrong on Comanche.

 

yeah, gotta be, nothing else would explain such an abrupt drop in speed. and the other boats have been tweeting and facebooking away and comanche has been silent. to me that says there are more pressing matters at hand to be dealt with. and I'll say it again, new boat = new boat gremlins, and the bigger and more technical the boat the more gremlins to be had

 

Thats possible. Or it could be that Ken Read, the owners, and the designers knew what they were talking about, when they said Comanche's achillies heel would be the light air, that she is currently sitting in.

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something is wrong on Comanche.

yeah, gotta be, nothing else would explain such an abrupt drop in speed. and the other boats have been tweeting and facebooking away and comanche has been silent. to me that says there are more pressing matters at hand to be dealt with. and I'll say it again, new boat = new boat gremlins, and the bigger and more technical the boat the more gremlins to be had

 

 

Thats possible. Or it could be that Ken Read, the owners, and the designers knew what they were talking about, when they said Comanche's achillies heel would be the light air, that she is currently sitting in.

 

 

which would make sense , but 50% boat speed ? that's a terrible design if so .

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something is wrong on Comanche.

yeah, gotta be, nothing else would explain such an abrupt drop in speed. and the other boats have been tweeting and facebooking away and comanche has been silent. to me that says there are more pressing matters at hand to be dealt with. and I'll say it again, new boat = new boat gremlins, and the bigger and more technical the boat the more gremlins to be had

 

Thats possible. Or it could be that Ken Read, the owners, and the designers knew what they were talking about, when they said Comanche's achillies heel would be the light air, that she is currently sitting in.

 

which would make sense , but 50% boat speed ? that's a terrible design if so .

I dont think so. Maybe you are starting to see why Oats is so impressive. Comanche has her conditions for sure, but to win Hobart you need to be an all rounder. I dont think Commanche is out of this yet, didnt Oats come back against Loyal from a bigger deficet last year?

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Musings on the differences in speed we're seeing..

Alive's doing 17kn, let alone Rags at 20, and say Oats doing 12kn.

Alive is currently 50nm behind, if you maintained the offset between Oats and Alive over the next 10 hours, you'd catch 'em.

Rags could do it in 6-7 hours with the current offsets.

SB

Edit: Storm Bay will be a leveller.

 

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something is wrong on Comanche.

 

yeah, gotta be, nothing else would explain such an abrupt drop in speed. and the other boats have been tweeting and facebooking away and comanche has been silent. to me that says there are more pressing matters at hand to be dealt with. and I'll say it again, new boat = new boat gremlins, and the bigger and more technical the boat the more gremlins to be had

 

Thats possible. Or it could be that Ken Read, the owners, and the designers knew what they were talking about, when they said Comanche's achillies heel would be the light air, that she is currently sitting in.

 

 

Go to the yacht tracker, set time to 1 day 1 hour, then go in 10 minute incruments through to 1 day 2 hours, Commanche is slow as anything in the light... WOXI just accellerated themselves out of there with initially a 50% speed advantage, now that they are out of there , they have a 100% speed advantage, Commando is still stuck so to speak in the light VMG air

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which would make sense , but 50% boat speed ? that's a terrible design if so .

 

my thoughts exactly, yes she's at a disadvantage in the light air, but sumthin's broke for there to be that big of a speed deficit. I'm sure the WOXI leg humpers will be along momentarily to tell me I'm wrong and that comanche is a shitty, worthless design et.

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Maluka's coming along. Got 5 boats behind her now. Interesting to see how many more Langman can knock off with just his wits/experience. 28' gaff-rig - very cool. Gotta laugh now when I hear people 'sweat' one over to Catalina in some 45' tub with full kit.

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Oh there are quite a few of you that will be editing your posts or eating your words shortly. How the fuck can you be so confident?

Something to do with all of WOXI's line honor wins maybe?

The same reason not one of the oats fanboys were talking for the first hours of the race?

 

Its a close call so far but you have the "munted" award so far.............................................

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which would make sense , but 50% boat speed ? that's a terrible design if so .

 

my thoughts exactly, yes she's at a disadvantage in the light air, but sumthin's broke for there to be that big of a speed deficit. I'm sure the WOXI leg humpers will be along momentarily to tell me I'm wrong and that comanche is a shitty, worthless design et.

 

Or just a boat in a hole.....................

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As anyone who has sailed this coast knows there is nothing like bringing home the nor'easter, time will tell. Festivities continue check back in an hour or two.

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which would make sense , but 50% boat speed ? that's a terrible design if so .

 

my thoughts exactly, yes she's at a disadvantage in the light air, but sumthin's broke for there to be that big of a speed deficit. I'm sure the WOXI leg humpers will be along momentarily to tell me I'm wrong and that comanche is a shitty, worthless design et.

 

Or just a boat in a hole.....................

 

what do the wind charts look like right now where she is compared to where the other maxi's are around her? I'm kinda limited since I'm on my phone

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which would make sense , but 50% boat speed ? that's a terrible design if so .

 

my thoughts exactly, yes she's at a disadvantage in the light air, but sumthin's broke for there to be that big of a speed deficit. I'm sure the WOXI leg humpers will be along momentarily to tell me I'm wrong and that comanche is a shitty, worthless design et.

 

Or just a boat in a hole.....................

Exactly ....... plenty of racing to go

 

Although be good to hear all the quotes from Excuses 101 handbook ........

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Winds are favouring WOXI, stronger ahead and they're sailing into it faster. As Comanche sails into better breeze (over 7.6kn now, but WOXI is over 14), it will go north so they won't have their favoured reaching angle for long.

 

The amazing thing is that WOXI is nearly 140nm behind its record.

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Winds are favouring WOXI, stronger ahead and they're sailing into it faster. As Comanche sails into better breeze (over 7.6kn now, but WOXI is over 14), it will go north so they won't have their favoured reaching angle for long.

 

The amazing thing is that WOXI is nearly 140nm behind its record.

 

really puts into perspective how challenging the conditions have been this year

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Indian giver

noun

sometimes offensive

:a person who gives something to another and then takes it back or expects an equivalent in return

Indian giving noun, sometimes offensive

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Reading this thread is hurting my somewhat meagre iq.

Firstly the Rolex tracker is really cheap arsed so nothing is real time but an average.

Second it takes average speed since start and uses this against distance to finish on rhumb line for corrected time.

So it is pretty funny watching people get hot and heavy on crap data.

The best story of the day is how far wedge tail and black jack have got East and whether the delay in getting pressure will be overcome by angle and current.

Now this will be good to watch.

Heroes or bums!

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Oh there are quite a few of you that will be editing your posts or eating your words shortly. How the fuck can you be so confident?

Something to do with all of WOXI's line honor wins maybe?

The same reason not one of the oats fanboys were talking for the first hours of the race?

the first hours of the race most of the fans were drinking piss and eating leftovers on a beach somewhere along the harbour - I know i was.

 

but if i was onboard Oats - I'd be crossing my salty fingers that the giant doesn't wake too early

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Reading this thread is hurting my somewhat meagre iq.

Firstly the Rolex tracker is really cheap arsed so nothing is real time but an average.

Second it takes average speed since start and uses this against distance to finish on rhumb line for corrected time.

So it is pretty funny watching people get hot and heavy on crap data.

The best story of the day is how far wedge tail and black jack have got East and whether the delay in getting pressure will be overcome by angle and current.

Now this will be good to watch.

Heroes or bums!

+1

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which would make sense , but 50% boat speed ? that's a terrible design if so .

 

my thoughts exactly, yes she's at a disadvantage in the light air, but sumthin's broke for there to be that big of a speed deficit. I'm sure the WOXI leg humpers will be along momentarily to tell me I'm wrong and that comanche is a shitty, worthless design et.

Terrible design? Why the fuck would you design a record breaker that's good in light air?

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Just saw Commanche on the news. Light weather and waves do not seem to agree with her. Lot of up + down motion when down-speed, no wonder the speed is off. Could be a by- product of the COG and COE being so far back.

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17.5 woxiii scarlett runner 2nd fastest with 15 something of a pocket of wind just off the coast

but soon as you go so far you fall out of it

the winds are set for the west in the west maybe

in the east and north combine for a nor easter

and a special SA breeze for the boat in the south

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Sitting at the southern end of storm bay, weather models will not pan as expected.

Just saying.

Sitting at the southern end of storm bay, weather models will not pan as expected.

Just saying.

Sitting at the southern end of storm bay, weather models will not pan as expected.

Just saying.

Less is more?

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For boats of such different design and age, it is amazing that C and WOXI were so closely matched for speed upwind. For the first 24 hours, the gap was pretty much fixed at 1 to 2 nm. Perhaps the maximum upwind speed for a 100 footer has been hit by both designs? I don't think that Rags and Loyal were that different in boat speed either... they were behind because they obviously read my advice to go inshore and then they bumped into Jervis bay! (they really shouldn't be reading the forums while racing).

 

We saw that C has the speed when reaching, WOXI has the advantage in the light. So we just don't know about VMG running.

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Black Jack's humiliation is so great she's headed for NZ to hide for a while. And she's going slow along the way!

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and they've just got it by the look of it - the beast is alive again 13knots!

 

back to the racing folks!

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For boats of such different design and age, it is amazing that C and WOXI were so closely matched for speed upwind. For the first 24 hours, the gap was pretty much fixed at 1 to 2 nm. Perhaps the maximum upwind speed for a 100 footer has been hit by both designs? I don't think that Rags and Loyal were that different in boat speed either... they were behind because they obviously read my advice to go inshore and then they bumped into Jervis bay! (they really shouldn't be reading the forums while racing).

 

We saw that C has the speed when reaching, WOXI has the advantage in the light. So we just don't know about VMG running.

yeah they were so evenly matched earlier it was incredible

 

you don't get much for a decade of development and $20M + do you....

 

what was it 1-2 NM :unsure:

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you don't get much for a decade of development and $20M + do you....

 

It's not like Wild Oats was standing still. How many mill has Bob O spent in that time?

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Black Jack's humiliation is so great she's headed for NZ to hide for a while. And she's going slow along the way!

Would have thought black jack and wedge tail are two best positioned boats on the course actually you no idea!

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Half way point still lots can happen

 

Wise man.

 

 

For boats of such different design and age, it is amazing that C and WOXI were so closely matched for speed upwind. For the first 24 hours, the gap was pretty much fixed at 1 to 2 nm. Perhaps the maximum upwind speed for a 100 footer has been hit by both designs? I don't think that Rags and Loyal were that different in boat speed either... they were behind because they obviously read my advice to go inshore and then they bumped into Jervis bay! (they really shouldn't be reading the forums while racing).

 

We saw that C has the speed when reaching, WOXI has the advantage in the light. So we just don't know about VMG running.

yeah they were so evenly matched earlier it was incredible

 

you don't get much for a decade of development and $20M + do you....

 

what was it 1-2 NM :unsure:

 

In those conditions on WOXI's home turf which they know so well. Put them in the envelope "C" was designed for and it could have beed daylight.

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Had a nanna nap and just re checked the tracker Oats sailing into fresh breeze, I'm afraid she's gone...........still the lottery up the river to come but even that looks like steady breeze.

Catch her if you can, I would love to see it happen...............................

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The next super maxis will (should) be narrower than WO, 4000+ kg heavier than WO, longitudinal Cp .62+ (depending on stern immersion), 15%+ Sail area up on WO.

The Fast IACC boats were all heavier and (way) narrower than their "fat"predecessors, and heeled more.

The downwind speed deficiency of WO against Comanche can be improved, Comanche's deficiency against WO will be an almost impossible call.

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you don't get much for a decade of development and $20M + do you....

 

It's not like Wild Oats was standing still. How many mill has Bob O spent in that time?

I meant that Comanche had a decade of yacht development to work with and anything between $20M and $100M ( who really knows )

but it really only bought them 1 -2k advantage

Bob has spent mountains of cash on that thing as we all know - there was an article last week that threw around a few figures - I think the yearly maintenance bill is around $2M and i would think that excludes mod's and upgrades

maybe the limits have been reached ??

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Half way point still lots can happen

 

Wise man.

 

>

For boats of such different design and age, it is amazing that C and WOXI were so closely matched for speed upwind. For the first 24 hours, the gap was pretty much fixed at 1 to 2 nm. Perhaps the maximum upwind speed for a 100 footer has been hit by both designs? I don't think that Rags and Loyal were that different in boat speed either... they were behind because they obviously read my advice to go inshore and then they bumped into Jervis bay! (they really shouldn't be reading the forums while racing).

 

We saw that C has the speed when reaching, WOXI has the advantage in the light. So we just don't know about VMG running.

yeah they were so evenly matched earlier it was incredible

 

you don't get much for a decade of development and $20M + do you....

 

what was it 1-2 NM :unsure:

 

In those conditions on WOXI's home turf which they know so well. Put them in the envelope "C" was designed for and it could have beed daylight.

 

agree

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Sounds like a reasonable extrapolation if your objective is S-H....there are/will be, different horses for other courses.

 

Comanche was not designed as a S-H specialist boat. Over the years WO has been refined for S-H and that is great!.....but on other race tracks she would be sailed around....subject to conditions......just saying...

 

 

The next super maxis will (should) narrower than WO, 4000+ kg heavier than WO, longitudinal Cp .62+ (depending on stern immersion), 15%+ Sail area up on WO.
The Fast IACC boats were all heavier and (way) narrower than their "fat"predecessors, and heeled more.
The downwind speed deficiency of WO against Comanche can be improved, Comanche's deficiency against WO will be an almost impossible call.

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Well you see wickham, it's like this . . . . . if the westerly comes in like the forecast says it will then Wedgetail and Black Jack will get it last not first. This could present both with issues.

 

Only a few hours now.

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The real game is happening right now. Boats in East still heating up ie black jack 148 while boats in far west are heated up the other way while centre group is pointing at Tasman.

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Well you see wickham, it's like this . . . . . if the westerly comes in like the forecast says it will then Wedgetail and Black Jack will get it last not first. This could present both with issues.

 

Only a few hours now.

Which is exactly my point.

However sitting at the southern end of bruny right now checking pots my view would be it will be that fresh from west but hang round a bit longer before going south.

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https://soundcloud.com/rolex-sydney-hobart/comanche-navigator-stan-honey

 

Comanche navigator Stan Honey talks about the conditions, shortly before being passed by Wild Oats XI. Looking for more wind pressure presently. That was the predicament of Sydney to Hobart yacht race favourite Comanche which, at times on Saturday afternoon, struggled to make six knots as leader Wild Oats XI powered south at more than twice her speed. "We are looking for a bit more breeze!" @TeamComanche tweeted as the supermaxi slipped to 27 nautical miles behind the pace-setter in the open waters of Bass Strait. From the air, photographer Daniel Forster described Comanche as being "stuck to the water".

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http://www.rolexsydneyhobart.com/news/2014/day-2/the-defining-moment-for-wild-oats-xi/

 

In the words of race photographer Daniel Forster, who flew over the fleet this afternoon, “Comanche looks like she’s stuck to the water”.

Having passed Comanche at about 10.00am as they entered Bass Strait in light airs, Wild Oats XI maintained a speed of 12-15 knots, twice that of Comanche, for most of the afternoon, until the lead had opened out to more than 20 nautical miles at 6 pm.

Meteorologists offered the view that Wild Oats XI had managed to sail through a ridge in Bass Strait, while Comanche had been stalled by it.

Asked why she was only doing 6.6 knots, Comanche tweeted, “No wind”.

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Sounds like a reasonable extrapolation if your objective is S-H....there are/will be, different horses for other courses.

 

Comanche was not designed as a S-H specialist boat. Over the years WO has been refined for S-H and that is great!.....but on other race tracks she would be sailed around....subject to conditions......just saying...

 

 

The next super maxis will (should) narrower than WO, 4000+ kg heavier than WO, longitudinal Cp .62+ (depending on stern immersion), 15%+ Sail area up on WO.

The Fast IACC boats were all heavier and (way) narrower than their "fat"predecessors, and heeled more.

The downwind speed deficiency of WO against Comanche can be improved, Comanche's deficiency against WO will be an almost impossible call.

Remember the DSS Factor. WOXI does not heel much downwind with that foil in place and its polars no doubt look quite different to how they were at launch.

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Unfortunately wickham as I post Black Jack is sailing 151 before a northerly that will disappear in 2 - 4 hours. On the other hand Alive is sailing 180 in a nor'wester that won't reach Blackjack for a few hours.

 

Which way was Hobart again ?

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Did not say bj was right just that it was a big bet.

Still fairly comfortable that the Eastern boats will win out.

The chutzpah rambler group look fine just east of the track

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The thing about being a SH "specialist boat" is you end up with a very fast all round boat.

Very, very true.

PMA yeah baby still showing them how it's done too Mr W!

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Sounds like a reasonable extrapolation if your objective is S-H....there are/will be, different horses for other courses.

 

Comanche was not designed as a S-H specialist boat. Over the years WO has been refined for S-H and that is great!.....but on other race tracks she would be sailed around....subject to conditions......just saying...

 

 

 

 

The next super maxis will (should) narrower than WO, 4000+ kg heavier than WO, longitudinal Cp .62+ (depending on stern immersion), 15%+ Sail area up on WO.

The Fast IACC boats were all heavier and (way) narrower than their "fat"predecessors, and heeled more.

The downwind speed deficiency of WO against Comanche can be improved, Comanche's deficiency against WO will be an almost impossible call.

Remember the DSS Factor. WOXI does not heel much downwind with that foil in place and its polars no doubt look quite different to how they were at launch.
: there was an obvious speed advantage to Comanche out of the blocks to the first mark, maybe the DSS factor is not the answer : maybe the answer is reduce wave making resistance by increasing Cp even carrying more heel angle - probably will rate lower than deploying the DSS appendage.

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Sounds like a reasonable extrapolation if your objective is S-H....there are/will be, different horses for other courses.

 

Comanche was not designed as a S-H specialist boat. Over the years WO has been refined for S-H and that is great!.....but on other race tracks she would be sailed around....subject to conditions......just saying...

 

 

 

 

The next super maxis will (should) narrower than WO, 4000+ kg heavier than WO, longitudinal Cp .62+ (depending on stern immersion), 15%+ Sail area up on WO.

The Fast IACC boats were all heavier and (way) narrower than their "fat"predecessors, and heeled more.

The downwind speed deficiency of WO against Comanche can be improved, Comanche's deficiency against WO will be an almost impossible call.

Remember the DSS Factor. WOXI does not heel much downwind with that foil in place and its polars no doubt look quite different to how they were at launch.
: there was an obvious speed advantage to Comanche out of the blocks to the first mark, maybe the DSS factor is not the answer : maybe the answer is reduce wave making resistance by increasing Cp even carrying more heel angle - probably will rate lower than deploying the DSS appendage.

Possibly. The first short leg was at a TWA of around 120 degrees, if the DSS is to work well WOXI needs to keep the boat relatively upright, it was clear that Comanche had way more power on and was fully planing (I was on the water) and heeling didn't seem to impact boatspeed too much up to a point. WOXI was easing sail to stay upright. I don't know if WOXI had the foil deployed, but it wasn't lifting the bow the way Comanche was. Given a furling manoeuvre, a hard right turn and a mainsail reef at the first mark, perhaps managing the DSS was one too many complexity to think of, or there were too many demands on hydraulic power to operate it and the rest of the hardware in such a short timeframe??

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Sounds like a reasonable extrapolation if your objective is S-H....there are/will be, different horses for other courses.

 

Comanche was not designed as a S-H specialist boat. Over the years WO has been refined for S-H and that is great!.....but on other race tracks she would be sailed around....subject to conditions......just saying...

 

 

 

 

The next super maxis will (should) narrower than WO, 4000+ kg heavier than WO, longitudinal Cp .62+ (depending on stern immersion), 15%+ Sail area up on WO.

The Fast IACC boats were all heavier and (way) narrower than their "fat"predecessors, and heeled more.

The downwind speed deficiency of WO against Comanche can be improved, Comanche's deficiency against WO will be an almost impossible call.

Remember the DSS Factor. WOXI does not heel much downwind with that foil in place and its polars no doubt look quite different to how they were at launch.
: there was an obvious speed advantage to Comanche out of the blocks to the first mark, maybe the DSS factor is not the answer : maybe the answer is reduce wave making resistance by increasing Cp even carrying more heel angle - probably will rate lower than deploying the DSS appendage.

That's the answer that the Volvo 65 crews came up with right? They sail with a LOT of heel angle on those boats.

 

Everybody chant after me: Anyone but oats! Anyone but oats!

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…maybe the answer is reduce wave making resistance by increasing Cp even carrying more heel angle - probably will rate lower than deploying the DSS appendage.

 

Maybe they should heal it to windward in the light stuff? Reduce wetted surface and get some lift from the rig? Are they at the "Hail Mary" point yet?

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: there was an obvious speed advantage to Comanche out of the blocks to the first mark, maybe the DSS factor is not the answer : maybe the answer is reduce wave making resistance by increasing Cp even carrying more heel angle - probably will rate lower than deploying the DSS appendage.

 

C is still carrying a lot more sail area that WOXI because her rig was designed with her massive form stability in mind. WOXI was not designed for DSS and is running only a small DSS foil which is as much to compensate for lack of forward buoyancy as it is for stability. The interesting thing to compare would be if WOXI (or WOXII) went for a big DSS foil and increased sail area to the same as C. ie would dynamic stability beat form stability?

 

I'm guessing that DSS is going to win out eventually over form stability because it gives lift as well as stability, plus you can tuck it back into the hull when you don't need it. Comanche's problem is that it has to carry it's fat arse even when it doesn't need it.

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: there was an obvious speed advantage to Comanche out of the blocks to the first mark, maybe the DSS factor is not the answer : maybe the answer is reduce wave making resistance by increasing Cp even carrying more heel angle - probably will rate lower than deploying the DSS appendage.

C is still carrying a lot more sail area that WOXI because her rig was designed with her massive form stability in mind. WOXI was not designed for DSS and is running only a small DSS foil which is as much to compensate for lack of forward buoyancy as it is for stability. The interesting thing to compare would be if WOXI (or WOXII) went for a big DSS foil and increased sail area to the same as C. ie would dynamic stability beat form stability?

 

I'm guessing that DSS is going to win out eventually over form stability because it gives lift as well as stability, plus you can tuck it back into the hull when you don't need it. Comanche's problem is that it has to carry it's fat arse even when it doesn't need it.

Or just a deeper keel, heavier bulb & a bigger rig.

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Looking more and more like a line honours win for WOXI, she is getting up to a 40nm lead over Comanche atm.

 

IRC victory is the more interesting battle, still a lot of boats in the running.

 

Has others have said, Comanche was built to set records, and records are set in strong winds. It certainly looks like light winds are Comanche's Achilles heel.

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Yeah 17 percent faster over final 280 miles is gonna be tough...

Tougher if WOXI has the correct sails for a three sail reach, unlike what they had from the start to the first turning mark.

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