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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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dinghydoc

Over drill size, cored decks

76 posts in this topic

Installing a set of Harken 46.2 STA's as spinnaker winches onto a cored deck. Coaming is already designed for them but PO did not spec when new (primaries are just aft of this area). This area also has some teak on it. The new Harkens use M8 or 5/16 bolts.

 

My plan was to over drill the holes and fill with West epoxy thickened with 406 and then drill for the 5/16 bolts. However, while I've done some epoxy work before I've never done this kind of thing with it. I'm not sure about the filler choice or how big to over drill. Here is a lame sketch of what I was thinking of. The green stuff is the thickened epoxy. I was hoping to be able to over drill without going all the way through the lower skin of the deck if I use the right bit but probably doesn't matter that much.

 

WinchAttach

 

So is 3/4" large enough for the over drill? Too large?

 

Is the 406 a good choice for a thickener in this application?

 

I looked through the West web site but if this info is there I missed it.

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Are you certain we can't talk you into a backing plate?

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You only need enough epoxy thickness to seal the core - it isn't there as a compression tube.

 

Put big backing plates underneath and don't tighten the fasteners unduly. Tight but not "until the suckers scream". Stainless nyloc nuts won't hurt.

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It doesn't hurt to take out a perimeter of core to make an 'annular boss' of thickened epoxy. No need to go way oversize just drill out to a bit of clearance for you fasteners. I like to take a buggered 3/16" allen key and grind off the short end till it is only 3/16" long. Then grind it into a nice cutting edge and insert into the hole checked into your drill motor and let it rip. It feels a bit like a jackhammer until it gets going so hang on but works like a charm. Fill as you've suggested and do backing plates and/or big washers as well.

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Whe I do this I make absolutely sure to have backing plates at least 3x the diameter of the plug, and I leave a lip of the original deck fiberglass on top as well as the bottom, you want a seal, but not a plug that will pop out.

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Rasputin and Vegas are spot on. Don't over drill the deck. Just undercut the core and fill.

 

If the deck wasn't intended/built up for the winches, you may need add material (glass) using epoxy for secondary bond. A backing plate (for instance G-10 or aluminum) would be my first try, but if the deck wasn't designed for winch loads, you may get flex and water intrusion.

 

2 fine points to consider: (1) drill and tap the new hole for the 5/16" fasteners once you've sealed the core. Will reduce water intrusion. (2) a small chamfer of the hole on deck (using a countersink bit) can provide a bit of extra space for the sealant.

 

Good luck.

 

P

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It doesn't hurt to take out a perimeter of core to make an 'annular boss' of thickened epoxy. No need to go way oversize just drill out to a bit of clearance for you fasteners. I like to take a buggered 3/16" allen key and grind off the short end till it is only 3/16" long. Then grind it into a nice cutting edge and insert into the hole checked into your drill motor and let it rip. It feels a bit like a jackhammer until it gets going so hang on but works like a charm. Fill as you've suggested and do backing plates and/or big washers as well.

 

I feel so primitive for using a small chisel.

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Rasputin and Vegas are spot on. Don't over drill the deck. Just undercut the core and fill.

 

If the deck wasn't intended/built up for the winches, you may need add material (glass) using epoxy for secondary bond. A backing plate (for instance G-10 or aluminum) would be my first try, but if the deck wasn't designed for winch loads, you may get flex and water intrusion.

 

2 fine points to consider: (1) drill and tap the new hole for the 5/16" fasteners once you've sealed the core. Will reduce water intrusion. (2) a small chamfer of the hole on deck (using a countersink bit) can provide a bit of extra space for the sealant.

 

Good luck.

 

P

 

 

Like this:

Sealing Deck Core Penetrations

 

105506491.jpg

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Thanks guys for all the recommendations and Maine Sail that's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for so thanks for putting that out there. I need to add your site to my links.

 

My countersink will be in the teak decking that lays on top of the deck but it will serve the same purpose regardless.

 

I'm not sure I need a backing plate. I've thought about this some and will wait until I'm back on the boat and have drilled my first hole. I'm almost certain that area of the deck is already reinforced for winches. There are Lewmar 65's just aft of this spot which was intended to have spinnaker winches installed there. If it turns out the deck is thin I will bond a plate of G-10 underneath. Adding a backing plate to a deck already designed for the winches seems unnecessary.?

 

The deck is open to the cockpit underneath so I think through bolting makes sense. Agree on nylocks, thick fender washers and using good 316 SS bolts. We have good fastener place in the neighborhood (Tacoma Screw).

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What possible reason stands for erring on the side of it might tear loose??

 

Unless you believe the backing plates would Add weight on an inappropriate place and sap performance .

 

Oh yeah.... There will be these big heavy cylinders just above those theoretically outrageously heavy performance sapping backing plates ...

 

Nope

 

Don't get it

 

 

There is nothing quite do good for a fiberglass laminate as spreading loads applied to that laminate

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Make a backing plate in form of a ring (not a disk) to catch all the bolts of the winch at once with the bolt holes drilled in it. this should be bigger than the fender washers you are using. FOR SURE do at least as much epoxy as in the Maine Sail photo. Winch loads love to delam decks, there is no reason not to take the time to do an overkill job now.

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Wondering how you clean out all the foam bits when you use a hex key? My preference has been to drill a proper sized hole from the deck side. Then over drill from the inner skin side. Tape off bottom, fill, then re-drill proper sized hole and chamfer the top. I don't drill over size to create a compression tube, but because I guess I'm a bit of a klutz. Particularly for smaller size holes and sloped surfaces, it is easy for me to get the drill bit off centre or out of alignment and I end up cross drilling into the foam, ruining the seal between the plug and foam. I'll oversize relatively less for larger holes, but for smaller ones I'll use 3x the bolt dia.

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Noooooo, do like Main Sail said.

That's how I did all my deck hardware (and used his butyl tape).

1/4" bolts get a 3/8" over bore and a medium countersink each side of glass.

Grind out the core, tape off the inside of the boat and inject thickened epoxy

(I've been using West 105/205 + 403 microfibers with good results).

 

I'm currently in the middle of tearing off the teak, re-coring my wet deck, and re-doing all the through-bolted hardware.

Here's a post on my website with a couple of videos if you're interested in how I did it….

 

http://svrambleon.com/hole-y-fiberglass-batman/

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The backing plate thing I find interesting. I'm not refusing to do it. Certainly not to save weight. Sheesh, my boat weighs 25,000 pounds! I know that with boats there is usually a very good reason for why things are done the same way over and over. I typically never question stuff. This one just got me to thinking about what was really being accomplished and a friend of mine started to question the conventions behind it.

 

I don't pretend to understand all the loads that are involved but I would expect shear and tension to be the biggies with shear being the highest if the sheet leads are correct. Maybe there is more of a tipping load than I realize. I can add a backing but I won't do it if that all it does is transfer the loads to the edge of the plate. In THEORY this area of deck is already designed for the loads. The Lewmar 65's have not flown off the deck and there is a crap load of force on those. The backing plate under those is a flimsy, unbonded aluminum plate. I don't think it is doing much but acting like a big washer but maybe I'm wrong and should be slapped.

 

I can see how a backing plate (especially bonded on) under the winch would stiffen the deck under the winch. That will reduce flexing locally and help decrease the chance of delamination but I would think that you have to be careful about point loads at the edge of the plate. If the deck is properly built for winches in the first place creating stress points along the edges of the backing plates might actually do more harm than good. Am I way off here?

 

I ordered up my Dremel bits, Brad point drills and some new countersinks to replace the ones that got drowned in salt water last year.

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Winches should be primarily in shear if sheet leads are set properly.

 

FWIW, my Columbia 43 had humongous S/S Barient two speeders on the cockpit coamings and they were bolted down with only standard size washers - not even fender washers. It had been like that for 33 years when I bought it and they hadn't loosened or wrecked the deck or anything else.

 

Not saying that's a good way to go - I replaced them with big fenders - but.......

 

Backing plates can get like anchors - one guy goes up a size, the next guy one more and so on until you have 30 footers with 45# anchors and people think that is what's necessary. Most of the backing plates I've seen on deck gear are more substantial than the backers on keel bolts. I use thick, large diameter fender washers for most fittings and have never had a problem.

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

dusty-west-marine-chair.jpg

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A tough use for a perfectly good seat, but I bet it helped.

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

dusty-west-marine-chair.jpg

 

The venus of willendorf silohuette is a nice touch.

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

what type of cut off wheel are you using on your grinder?

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

dusty-west-marine-chair.jpg

 

From Snaggy to The Venus of Willendorf in two clicks. Marvelous.

 

+1

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

dusty-west-marine-chair.jpg

 

The venus of willendorf silohuette is a nice touch.

That there is the Shroud of Punta Gorda. Touching it with your handkerchief cures psoriasis.

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I already own a couple of those fine chairs. I'll keep mine for use in the cockpit but that's a good idea. The image is great. I can feel the dust piling up on the goggles and clogging the face mask.

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Winches should be primarily in shear if sheet leads are set properly.

 

FWIW, my Columbia 43 had humongous S/S Barient two speeders on the cockpit coamings and they were bolted down with only standard size washers - not even fender washers. It had been like that for 33 years when I bought it and they hadn't loosened or wrecked the deck or anything else.

 

Not saying that's a good way to go - I replaced them with big fenders - but.......

 

Backing plates can get like anchors - one guy goes up a size, the next guy one more and so on until you have 30 footers with 45# anchors and people think that is what's necessary. Most of the backing plates I've seen on deck gear are more substantial than the backers on keel bolts. I use thick, large diameter fender washers for most fittings and have never had a problem.

 

I would not be surprised to learn that is exactly why it gets done in some cases. Sometimes doing stuff because it seems like it can't hurt is actually not true. In this case I'm still not sure. Next week I will be on the boat and doing the work and will make the decision based on what I see after drilling my first hole. Thanks for the info.

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

dusty-west-marine-chair.jpg

 

The venus of willendorf silohuette is a nice touch.

Gee, I thought is was a shmoo.

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

dusty-west-marine-chair.jpg

 

The venus of willendorf silohuette is a nice touch.

Gee, I thought is was a shmoo.

 

Wow, are you ever old. ;)

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I had to look it up.

 

shmoo8mt.jpg

 

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Winches should be primarily in shear if sheet leads are set properly.

 

FWIW, my Columbia 43 had humongous S/S Barient two speeders on the cockpit coamings and they were bolted down with only standard size washers - not even fender washers. It had been like that for 33 years when I bought it and they hadn't loosened or wrecked the deck or anything else.

 

Not saying that's a good way to go - I replaced them with big fenders - but.......

 

Backing plates can get like anchors - one guy goes up a size, the next guy one more and so on until you have 30 footers with 45# anchors and people think that is what's necessary. Most of the backing plates I've seen on deck gear are more substantial than the backers on keel bolts. I use thick, large diameter fender washers for most fittings and have never had a problem.

I would not be surprised to learn that is exactly why it gets done in some cases. Sometimes doing stuff because it seems like it can't hurt is actually not true. In this case I'm still not sure. Next week I will be on the boat and doing the work and will make the decision based on what I see after drilling my first hole. Thanks for the info.

My question would be why not? It adds minimal weight, spreads the load, and if you paint the silly thing, it doesn't harm aesthetics. Hell,at the very least, it'll avoid little spiderwebs in the gel coat two years from now that are bound to annoy any boat owner!

 

Going back to the anchor analogy, I bet the dude with the 45 lb. anchor gets a better night's sleep than the fella with the (good enough) 20 pounder.

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"Going back to the anchor analogy, I bet the dude with the 45 lb. anchor gets a better night's sleep than the fella with the (good enough) 20 pounder. " And if you've ever seen a anchor planing behind a boat that wanted to stop, heavy might appeal a bit more.

 

Backing plates are a poor place to save weight, overkill makes the system stronger.

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Okay, based on all the above advice regarding anchors (I thought that was now spelled "ankers") etc. I now know what is required. Your winches have an approximate footprint of 8 inches in diameter. So, you neet to make some 24 inch diameter backing plates out of 1 inch thick (minimum) G10 and then use three stepped fender washers. And be sure to bed everything in some 5200 just to add a bit of extra security. Oh, and you are also going to need a bigger anchor...

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

what type of cut off wheel are you using on your grinder?

 

I made all that dust with a sanding disc. Then I cleaned it up and got it that dusty again. The next session will be touchup and then I'm done with the grinder for this phase. It's good to be done with the grinder.

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I don't think it is doing much but acting like a big washer

 

creating stress points along the edges of the backing plates might actually do more harm than good. Am I way off here

 

Isn't the point of a backing plate to act like a big washer? And while the edge of the plate would be a concentration of stress, it's a lot less concentrated than the same force distributed over the edges of the nuts.

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Okay, based on all the above advice regarding anchors (I thought that was now spelled "ankers") etc. I now know what is required. Your winches have an approximate footprint of 8 inches in diameter. So, you neet to make some 24 inch diameter backing plates out of 1 inch thick (minimum) G10 and then use three stepped fender washers. And be sure to bed everything in some 5200 just to add a bit of extra security. Oh, and you are also going to need a bigger anchor...

 

Per Roy Scheider, you're gonna need a bigger boat.

 

 

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Okay, based on all the above advice regarding anchors (I thought that was now spelled "ankers") etc. I now know what is required. Your winches have an approximate footprint of 8 inches in diameter. So, you neet to make some 24 inch diameter backing plates out of 1 inch thick (minimum) G10 and then use three stepped fender washers. And be sure to bed everything in some 5200 just to add a bit of extra security. Oh, and you are also going to need a bigger anchor...

 

Per Roy Scheider, you're gonna need a bigger boat.

 

 

 

If he gets a bigger boat, eh will need to further upsize those backing plates. And the anchor...

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Winches should be primarily in shear if sheet leads are set properly.

 

FWIW, my Columbia 43 had humongous S/S Barient two speeders on the cockpit coamings and they were bolted down with only standard size washers - not even fender washers. It had been like that for 33 years when I bought it and they hadn't loosened or wrecked the deck or anything else.

 

Not saying that's a good way to go - I replaced them with big fenders - but.......

 

Backing plates can get like anchors - one guy goes up a size, the next guy one more and so on until you have 30 footers with 45# anchors and people think that is what's necessary. Most of the backing plates I've seen on deck gear are more substantial than the backers on keel bolts. I use thick, large diameter fender washers for most fittings and have never had a problem.

I would not be surprised to learn that is exactly why it gets done in some cases. Sometimes doing stuff because it seems like it can't hurt is actually not true. In this case I'm still not sure. Next week I will be on the boat and doing the work and will make the decision based on what I see after drilling my first hole. Thanks for the info.

My question would be why not? It adds minimal weight, spreads the load, and if you paint the silly thing, it doesn't harm aesthetics. Hell,at the very least, it'll avoid little spiderwebs in the gel coat two years from now that are bound to annoy any boat owner!

 

Going back to the anchor analogy, I bet the dude with the 45 lb. anchor gets a better night's sleep than the fella with the (good enough) 20 pounder.

 

He needs it to let his back recover. Appropriate is not the same as good enough, otherwise why not have a 75# on 3/4" chain on a 30'?

 

"A little bigger", "a bit stronger" and "oversized" are the maxims of inexperienced boatbuilders. You know, the ones with the boats floating 3" deep.

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Winches should be primarily in shear if sheet leads are set properly.

 

FWIW, my Columbia 43 had humongous S/S Barient two speeders on the cockpit coamings and they were bolted down with only standard size washers - not even fender washers. It had been like that for 33 years when I bought it and they hadn't loosened or wrecked the deck or anything else.

 

Not saying that's a good way to go - I replaced them with big fenders - but.......

 

Backing plates can get like anchors - one guy goes up a size, the next guy one more and so on until you have 30 footers with 45# anchors and people think that is what's necessary. Most of the backing plates I've seen on deck gear are more substantial than the backers on keel bolts. I use thick, large diameter fender washers for most fittings and have never had a problem.

I would not be surprised to learn that is exactly why it gets done in some cases. Sometimes doing stuff because it seems like it can't hurt is actually not true. In this case I'm still not sure. Next week I will be on the boat and doing the work and will make the decision based on what I see after drilling my first hole. Thanks for the info.

My question would be why not? It adds minimal weight, spreads the load, and if you paint the silly thing, it doesn't harm aesthetics. Hell,at the very least, it'll avoid little spiderwebs in the gel coat two years from now that are bound to annoy any boat owner!

 

Going back to the anchor analogy, I bet the dude with the 45 lb. anchor gets a better night's sleep than the fella with the (good enough) 20 pounder.

 

He needs it to let his back recover. Appropriate is not the same as good enough, otherwise why not have a 75# on 3/4" chain on a 30'?

 

"A little bigger", "a bit stronger" and "oversized" are the maxims of inexperienced boatbuilders. You know, the ones with the boats floating 3" deep.

 

Friends of ours (liveaboard) had a Fortune 30 with something like 500 feet of 3/8" chain plus a 10' RIB on davits. The boat was floating 6" below her lines. That's overkill.

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

what type of cut off wheel are you using on your grinder?

 

I made all that dust with a sanding disc. Then I cleaned it up and got it that dusty again. The next session will be touchup and then I'm done with the grinder for this phase. It's good to be done with the grinder.

 

 

ok, so you're not cutting through the fiberglass to get to the wet core?

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Winches should be primarily in shear if sheet leads are set properly.

 

FWIW, my Columbia 43 had humongous S/S Barient two speeders on the cockpit coamings and they were bolted down with only standard size washers - not even fender washers. It had been like that for 33 years when I bought it and they hadn't loosened or wrecked the deck or anything else.

 

Not saying that's a good way to go - I replaced them with big fenders - but.......

 

Backing plates can get like anchors - one guy goes up a size, the next guy one more and so on until you have 30 footers with 45# anchors and people think that is what's necessary. Most of the backing plates I've seen on deck gear are more substantial than the backers on keel bolts. I use thick, large diameter fender washers for most fittings and have never had a problem.

I would not be surprised to learn that is exactly why it gets done in some cases. Sometimes doing stuff because it seems like it can't hurt is actually not true. In this case I'm still not sure. Next week I will be on the boat and doing the work and will make the decision based on what I see after drilling my first hole. Thanks for the info.

My question would be why not? It adds minimal weight, spreads the load, and if you paint the silly thing, it doesn't harm aesthetics. Hell,at the very least, it'll avoid little spiderwebs in the gel coat two years from now that are bound to annoy any boat owner!

 

Going back to the anchor analogy, I bet the dude with the 45 lb. anchor gets a better night's sleep than the fella with the (good enough) 20 pounder.

 

He needs it to let his back recover. Appropriate is not the same as good enough, otherwise why not have a 75# on 3/4" chain on a 30'?

 

"A little bigger", "a bit stronger" and "oversized" are the maxims of inexperienced boatbuilders. You know, the ones with the boats floating 3" deep.

 

Friends of ours (liveaboard) had a Fortune 30 with something like 500 feet of 3/8" chain plus a 10' RIB on davits. The boat was floating 6" below her lines. That's overkill.

 

Sounds much like mine when I bought it - davits with an 8' hard dink, 100#+ Hydrovane, Radar, big solar panel etc. all on the stern.

 

When I stripped off all that COTB the stern rose at least 4".

 

Some people don't seem to understand the concept of a SMALL blue water boat - they apparently think it should still have all the stuff carried by the big boats.

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

 

what type of cut off wheel are you using on your grinder?

I made all that dust with a sanding disc. Then I cleaned it up and got it that dusty again. The next session will be touchup and then I'm done with the grinder for this phase. It's good to be done with the grinder.

 

ok, so you're not cutting through the fiberglass to get to the wet core?

You missed the beginning of the story. When I noticed the core was soggy I cut off the inner skin using a Fein Multimaster and the core remains mostly flopped and flowed down on me. I'm just cleaning up edges and prepping the surface to receive a new core. The old skin is warped and the finish is shot so I will toss it and put a new skin on the inside.

 

That will be the point in the project when I really wish I had just cut the deck off and repaired it upside down.

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Newly added to my list of things I know, but should not:

 

If you do wind up with a soggy core and it results in operating a grinder over your head, one of those cool West Marine folding chairs from our sponsor can make the job a lot more comfortable.

 

For the "pics or" crowd:

what type of cut off wheel are you using on your grinder?

I made all that dust with a sanding disc. Then I cleaned it up and got it that dusty again. The next session will be touchup and then I'm done with the grinder for this phase. It's good to be done with the grinder.

 

ok, so you're not cutting through the fiberglass to get to the wet core?

You missed the beginning of the story. When I noticed the core was soggy I cut off the inner skin using a Fein Multimaster and the core remains mostly flopped and flowed down on me. I'm just cleaning up edges and prepping the surface to receive a new core. The old skin is warped and the finish is shot so I will toss it and put a new skin on the inside.

 

That will be the point in the project when I really wish I had just cut the deck off and repaired it upside down.

 

always wanted one of those... keep looking at cheap knockoffs and go nah... need the real deal..

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You missed the beginning of the story. When I noticed the core was soggy I cut off the inner skin using a Fein Multimaster and the core remains mostly flopped and flowed down on me. I'm just cleaning up edges and prepping the surface to receive a new core. The old skin is warped and the finish is shot so I will toss it and put a new skin on the inside.

That will be the point in the project when I really wish I had just cut the deck off and repaired it upside down.

 

always wanted one of those... keep looking at cheap knockoffs and go nah... need the real deal..

This unit is slightly cheaper and is of comparable quality, IMHO:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007EO8ITK/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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always wanted one of those... keep looking at cheap knockoffs and go nah... need the real deal..

Buy the cheap knockoff. And a whole bucket of $7 blades, from Harbor Freight. (Cheap or expensive, multitools eat thru blades quickly. Except in fiberglass, for some bizarre reason.) I think I paid $40 on sale for the HF variable speed kit, which came with a blow-molded case & all kinds of attachments. It needed a lock washer under the mandrel bolt (kept vibrating loose), and sometimes in cold weather the digital VS doesn't provide the amps to get the motor up to speed. Plug in a space heater on the same circuit, off it goes.;)

 

If the cheap knockoff turns you into a multitool fanatic, or if it dies prematurely, you can drop $300 on the Fein, which is a better tool for sure. Or you can buy another $40 HF kit and carry on as before. I'm recoring my second boat with the $40 beater & expect it to live until it dies.

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always wanted one of those... keep looking at cheap knockoffs and go nah... need the real deal..

Buy the cheap knockoff. And a whole bucket of $7 blades, from Harbor Freight. (Cheap or expensive, multitools eat thru blades quickly. Except in fiberglass, for some bizarre reason.) I think I paid $40 on sale for the HF variable speed kit, which came with a blow-molded case & all kinds of attachments. It needed a lock washer under the mandrel bolt (kept vibrating loose), and sometimes in cold weather the digital VS doesn't provide the amps to get the motor up to speed. Plug in a space heater on the same circuit, off it goes. ;)

 

If the cheap knockoff turns you into a multitool fanatic, or if it dies prematurely, you can drop $300 on the Fein, which is a better tool for sure. Or you can buy another $40 HF kit and carry on as before. I'm recoring my second boat with the $40 beater & expect it to live until it dies.

 

 

I have a $15 HF angle grinder that's been going strong for a number of years.. one time I was working on a boat cradle and it fell into the water.. I could still hear it running.. i pulled it out by the cord. unplugged it and let it dry in the heat.. started right back up 15 mins later.. that was 3 years ago..

 

 

so which blades do you use the most of? and what do you use to cut fiberglass with?

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Rockwell is ok

 

I have a small Rockwell router that I bought in 1977 for $30 - it is, by far, my most used router of the 4 I own and is still going strong.

 

Rockwell is better than O/K.

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so which blades do you use the most of? and what do you use to cut fiberglass with?

Blades I use most on FG:

 

image_20272.jpg

For long straight runs. For tighter areas, precise plunge-cutting, or turning a radius, these:

image_20299.jpg

The plain scraper blades work pretty well for removing old foam or liner adhesive stuck to the hull, and for roughing up areas of laminate to take fresh epoxy, this carbide burr gets into corners pretty well:

 

image_20384.jpg

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Rockwell is ok

I have a small Rockwell router that I bought in 1977 for $30 - it is, by far, my most used router of the 4 I own and is still going strong.

 

Rockwell is better than O/K.

Rockwell in '77 was a different company i believe than the one today, please,correct me if I am wrong.

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I bought the Dremel version and liked it OK but it died so I bought the Fein. Have only used it a little bit. So far it's fine.

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When core squishes, flops, and flows...

 

cp-16-peeled-core.jpg

 

These pieces of core had the consistency of very wet toilet paper. You could not pick them up. I put a fan in there and let them get dry and crispy before attempting to clean up.

 

cp-16-core-remains.jpg

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I bought the Dremel version and liked it OK but it died so I bought the Fein. Have only used it a little bit. So far it's fine.

Didn't you mean to say, "... it's fein."?

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Rockwell is ok

I have a small Rockwell router that I bought in 1977 for $30 - it is, by far, my most used router of the 4 I own and is still going strong.

 

Rockwell is better than O/K.

Rockwell in '77 was a different company i believe than the one today, please,correct me if I am wrong.
I'm pretty sure you're right. Price wise, Rockwell seems to go head to head with Ryobi now.

 

I have the Rockwell multi tool as well as the Rigid 12V version. Both can be pretty darn handy.

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When core squishes, flops, and flows...

 

cp-16-peeled-core.jpg

 

These pieces of core had the consistency of very wet toilet paper. You could not pick them up. I put a fan in there and let them get dry and crispy before attempting to clean up.

 

cp-16-core-remains.jpg

 

You must love that boat or you got it for a very good price. That looks like a lot of work and not fun work.

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Rockwell is ok

I have a small Rockwell router that I bought in 1977 for $30 - it is, by far, my most used router of the 4 I own and is still going strong.

 

Rockwell is better than O/K.

Rockwell in '77 was a different company i believe than the one today, please,correct me if I am wrong.
I'm pretty sure you're right. Price wise, Rockwell seems to go head to head with Ryobi now.

 

That's a shame - they were great tools. Fucking bean counters fuck everything up with their soulless nickel & diming.

 

Hard to believe that Stanley was once a great name in tools before those assholes cheapened it into the kitchen drawer crap it is now.

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When core squishes, flops, and flows...

 

 

You must love that boat or you got it for a very good price. That looks like a lot of work and not fun work.

I got it free and it would be somewhat less work to cut it up and haul it to the dump, but that's depressing work to me.

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You're a good man.

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Rockwell is ok

I have a small Rockwell router that I bought in 1977 for $30 - it is, by far, my most used router of the 4 I own and is still going strong.

 

Rockwell is better than O/K.

Rockwell in '77 was a different company i believe than the one today, please,correct me if I am wrong.
I'm pretty sure you're right. Price wise, Rockwell seems to go head to head with Ryobi now.

That's a shame - they were great tools. Fucking bean counters fuck everything up with their soulless nickel & diming.

 

Hard to believe that Stanley was once a great name in tools before those assholes cheapened it into the kitchen drawer crap it is now.

Rockwell, Stanley, Black & Decker, Skil, the list goes on and on. (I still like Stanley tape measures. The Fat Max is awesome when you're doing siding and need the huge stand off).

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Rockwell is ok

I have a small Rockwell router that I bought in 1977 for $30 - it is, by far, my most used router of the 4 I own and is still going strong.

 

Rockwell is better than O/K.

Rockwell in '77 was a different company i believe than the one today, please,correct me if I am wrong.
I'm pretty sure you're right. Price wise, Rockwell seems to go head to head with Ryobi now.

 

That's a shame - they were great tools. Fucking bean counters fuck everything up with their soulless nickel & diming.

 

Hard to believe that Stanley was once a great name in tools before those assholes cheapened it into the kitchen drawer crap it is now.

 

The bean counters often come into play, but I often wonder if also happens that these companies have been bought for the name only, then run the name into the ground, but at least the new owners can leverage the name for a few years.

 

I'm thinking of RCA, which used to be a premium brand, but is now (or at least was a couple of years ago) one of the cheapest around. Don't know if they are even still around today.

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That's a shame - they were great tools. Fucking bean counters fuck everything up with their soulless nickel & diming.

 

Hard to believe that Stanley was once a great name in tools before those assholes cheapened it into the kitchen drawer crap it is now.

 

The bean counters often come into play, but I often wonder if also happens that these companies have been bought for the name only, then run the name into the ground, but at least the new owners can leverage the name for a few years.

 

I'm thinking of RCA, which used to be a premium brand, but is now (or at least was a couple of years ago) one of the cheapest around. Don't know if they are even still around today.

Yep. Common practice in the Private Equity world. Very often, brand/name recognition is all a company has going for it, asset-wise. A holding company can snap up the brand at pennies on the dollar, apply it to an entirely unrelated line of products, and gain instant position in the marketplace. We consumers are brand-loyal, even after a brand has declined or morphed into something other. Expect this to happen to Kodak in the next few years. Still one of the world's most identifiable and beloved brands, although it lost the plot c.1982 and hasn't found it since.

 

Also, consolidation and splintering off in the tools business means some brands get repositioned for different markets, while others are cut loose by a parent company as not profitable enuf, while still others may have been building tools for the name brands for years, saw the name brand move production to a lower bidder, and unveiled their own lines of tools.

 

For example, Stanley owns Black&Decker, Porter Cable, and Dewalt; it made a conscious decision to front Dewalt as its rugged contractor-grade line, market PC as its fine bench-craft line, while relegating B&D to consumer-grade status. Same with Milwaukee and Ryobi (bought and sold several times), Bosch and Dremel and Skil, and so on. Porter Cable was actually part of Rockwell once, which fused with Delta to become Pentair, before PC was spun off and snapped up by Stanley. Sears Craftsman tools were made for years in Ohio by Emerson Electric's Ridgid division; when Craftsman offshored everything (nearly destroying their cherished reputation by producing absolute shite tools), Ridgid started putting out their own lines of tools (now also largely made in China) which are quite good, tho made for hands larger than mine. JET tools bought Powermatic; While the PM66 is still assembled in Tennessee, many components are shipping in from Taiwan.

 

*shrug* It's a fluid business, driven by short-term profit decisions by corporates and price-point buying decisions by us consumers. I buy $40 Chicago (ha!) Electric multitools from HF -- but $450 orbital sanders from Festool (Germany). That calculus works for me. Others may prefer $350 multitools from Fein (also made in Germany) but $30 Ryobi palm sanders. I'm glad there is a range of price and quality to choose from.:)

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That's a shame - they were great tools. Fucking bean counters fuck everything up with their soulless nickel & diming.

 

Hard to believe that Stanley was once a great name in tools before those assholes cheapened it into the kitchen drawer crap it is now.

 

The bean counters often come into play, but I often wonder if also happens that these companies have been bought for the name only, then run the name into the ground, but at least the new owners can leverage the name for a few years.

 

I'm thinking of RCA, which used to be a premium brand, but is now (or at least was a couple of years ago) one of the cheapest around. Don't know if they are even still around today.

It's a fluid business, driven by short-term profit decisions by corporates . :)

Exactly - bean counters. "If we change this gear from bronze to nylon we can save $0.20 per unit". "Next quarter our profits should go up $1.1 million". So what if the life is shortened 80%?

 

Soulless motherfuckers

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It's a fluid business, driven by short-term profit decisions by corporates and price-point buying decisions by us consumers. ...

 

 

Consumers just want better quality than ever before at lower prices than ever before. Nothing wrong with that! We can't be blamed for sucking the souls out of bean counters, can we? ;)

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Thanks Diarmuid, I think you summarized well. I own both types, cheap and good and make the judgement all the time. I'm currently pondering the vacuum conundrum- another big cheap one that will burn a bearing if I run it too much too long with a dirty filter, or a nice Festool that will suck the perfect amount and turn on and off with the tool. $100 vs. $450- I'm glad both are available.

 

Is there an equivalent of "Practical Sailor" for tools? The hardest time I have is knowing current quality of what once was a "good" brand.

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Thanks Diarmuid, I think you summarized well. I own both types, cheap and good and make the judgement all the time. I'm currently pondering the vacuum conundrum- another big cheap one that will burn a bearing if I run it too much too long with a dirty filter, or a nice Festool that will suck the perfect amount and turn on and off with the tool. $100 vs. $450- I'm glad both are available.

 

Is there an equivalent of "Practical Sailor" for tools? The hardest time I have is knowing current quality of what once was a "good" brand.

 

 

always go with the one that "sucks" better..

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Thanks Diarmuid, I think you summarized well. I own both types, cheap and good and make the judgement all the time. I'm currently pondering the vacuum conundrum- another big cheap one that will burn a bearing if I run it too much too long with a dirty filter, or a nice Festool that will suck the perfect amount and turn on and off with the tool. $100 vs. $450- I'm glad both are available.

 

Is there an equivalent of "Practical Sailor" for tools? The hardest time I have is knowing current quality of what once was a "good" brand.

No objective magazine I know of -- woodworking rags are even more advertiser driven than sailing rags. Popular Mechanics has been reasonably fair in its tool reviews of late, tho all rate 3 stars or better..;) Wading thru online blogs or YouTube videos can be helpful, if you have time to kill.

 

One other issue is many brands source their tools a la carte from a mix of overseas vendors. So their drills may be good, but their jigsaw is a re-labeled Ryobi that won't cut straight. Same goes for household appliances. Odds are a given marque's products are coming from six different factories in China or Taiwan, each with its design team & own notion of QA.

 

I've written elsewhere there is a huge opening in the market for a mid-range HEPA dust extractor/vac -- something between the $70 disposable ShopVac and the $500 Fein/Festool beauties. Auto on/off, variable suction, bypass motor fan, two stage filtration, anti-static hose, under 65dB, price ~$200. Hard to believe no one has jumped into that space, cuz they would find buyers.:)

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OffCenterHarbor.com offers a selection of videos and recently had a couple specific to power tools

used in boat construction and repair. Favored tools were gleaned from different brands. I was able

to view the video for free as a promotion but it may now require a subscription to the site.

"Boatbuilders best powertools"

JT

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One other issue is many brands source their tools a la carte from a mix of overseas vendors. So their drills may be good, but their jigsaw is a re-labeled Ryobi that won't cut straight. Same goes for household appliances. Odds are a given marque's products are coming from six different factories in China or Taiwan, each with its design team & own notion of QA.

 

yeah, you have to do your research.. that's how I found my RO, branded by Rigid, it turned out the previous years model was made by Metabo, current model sourced to china.. I searched around and found the metabo model...

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So I drilled the deck today and filled the holes with epoxy. The coaming turns out to be a good stack. Top is about 7/16" of teak (it's wearing and has probably been sanded before), now I have to guess at thicknesses because it's hard to see into a 7/16" hole. Below the teak is the first layer of glass at somewhere about 3/16. Then it gets really hard to tell but it looks like both plywood and balsa in there before the lower skin which is probably an 1/8". The total stack including the teak is 1-3/4".

 

The shaft of the Dremel router bit was not really long enough to do a super clean routing job like Maine Sail shows on his web site. I used the Dremel flexible wand to reach down in and clean out the softer core so I know I have a decent plug of epoxy in there. It just isn't pretty but no one can see it.

 

Hopefully the epoxy is cured fully by tomorrow afternoon so I can drill and install. With that much thickness in the deck I'm going with thick fender washers for now. Pretty confident the loads on these winches won't do much to that deck but I'll keep an I eye on them because it's easy to do.

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I read tool reviews on Amazon for the basic gear. Somebody above said that most brand names now are a mix and that's true. I got a stellar DeWalt chop saw that Amazon reviews and Popular Mechanics (a reliable source) rated top in its class. A slightly lower tier DeWalt was rated Meh and a higher tier Dewalt rated good but was pretty much the same as the competitors. So I pick and choose. I have a Millwaukee Sawzall, a very old Skil hand saw, Craftsman sockets, etc. Good pro-am caliber gear.

 

I do, however, utterly revere good old tools. I use an 80 year old Stanley #5 wood plane that is in good shape, handed down from Granddad, have axes and hammers and wrenches, torches, taps and dies passed on from my dad, and so on. Some of the old tools I got from him, however, are cheap pieces of shit. It occurs to me that maybe a lot of tools in the old days were shit too, just we revere particular brands and models and hang on to them because they were "best in show" in their era.

 

And I do have a Rockwell 3/4" power drill. My dad got that in the mid-70's on a shop discount, through a friend who was an electrical engineer, using Rockwell gear to build prototypes of electronic gear for attack subs, and while they (the General Electric engineers) could have billed the government for any tool they wanted, they picked Rockwell.

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I read tool reviews on Amazon for the basic gear. Somebody above said that most brand names now are a mix and that's true. I got a stellar DeWalt chop saw that Amazon reviews and Popular Mechanics (a reliable source) rated top in its class. A slightly lower tier DeWalt was rated Meh and a higher tier Dewalt rated good but was pretty much the same as the competitors. So I pick and choose. I have a Millwaukee Sawzall, a very old Skil hand saw, Craftsman sockets, etc. Good pro-am caliber gear.

 

 

I have a Milwaukee 1/4 sheet sander going on 30 years.. replaced the rubber pad just recently (milwaukee even had the part) and a Milwaukee corded drill that nearly broke my wrist because it has so much torque.. I like their tools..

 

 

 

back to the OQ... since I have a smaller keelboat, almost all my fasteners are #10's so the whole ain't too large.. I'd like to use Maine Sails technique but I'm doubting I'll find a bit to fit... any suggestions?

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I have a Milwaukee 1/4 sheet sander going on 30 years.. replaced the rubber pad just recently (milwaukee even had the part) and a Milwaukee corded drill that nearly broke my wrist because it has so much torque.. I like their tools..

My first house was an old tavern built in 1790. When I bought it I knew it needed to be re-wired, knob & tube wiring was still live. I decided to do the work myself to save money. One evening, while using my Milwaukee Hole Hawg to drill through a 16" thick oak beam, the bit hit a knot and lifted me straight off the ground then pinning me to the sub floor with my hand jambed into the ON position.. I had to yell to my wife, she came running and found me pinned to the ceiling in the basement. "Unplug it, unplug it!" She did and I fell to the floor.... I still have that Hole Hawg and it will still lift a 200 pounder clean off the floor..........

 

For boat work my favorite tool kit is my Milwaukee M-12 stuff. The form factor is the best I have found for working in tight places... While not the quality of my old Milwaukee stuff it is still better than much of the stuff out there..

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always wanted one of those... keep looking at cheap knockoffs and go nah... need the real deal..

Buy the cheap knockoff. And a whole bucket of $7 blades, from Harbor Freight. (Cheap or expensive, multitools eat thru blades quickly. Except in fiberglass, for some bizarre reason.) I think I paid $40 on sale for the HF variable speed kit, which came with a blow-molded case & all kinds of attachments. It needed a lock washer under the mandrel bolt (kept vibrating loose), and sometimes in cold weather the digital VS doesn't provide the amps to get the motor up to speed. Plug in a space heater on the same circuit, off it goes. ;)

 

If the cheap knockoff turns you into a multitool fanatic, or if it dies prematurely, you can drop $300 on the Fein, which is a better tool for sure. Or you can buy another $40 HF kit and carry on as before. I'm recoring my second boat with the $40 beater & expect it to live until it dies.

 

well you convinced me, and the fact that you can print off a coupon from harbor freight website.. you can get the above one for $30 now... picked up a couple of the blades you recommended.. tks...

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I have a Milwaukee 1/4 sheet sander going on 30 years.. replaced the rubber pad just recently (milwaukee even had the part) and a Milwaukee corded drill that nearly broke my wrist because it has so much torque.. I like their tools..

Milwaukee Hole Hawg

 

Best tool name EVER!

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For corded drills, I buy only Milwaukee. Most builders seem to prefer DeWalt for cordless drills & saws, tho. I'm not familiar enuf with cordless tools to judge. Have a Milwaukee close-quarters drill (actually made by Sioux) that will also break your wrist for torque, & the paddle trigger is similarly famous for turning the tool on unexpectedly & preventing you from letting go. Tuck that bastard under your elbow just once & you'll be wearing it like a necktie.

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I use battery tools all day for my job and have had mixed luck. I bought ryobi l-ion to start with and they all still work perfectly after 2 years. The Bosch pro drill has died after 9 months and the impact wrench needed a $200 repair after 12 months ( they were a gift from a supplier so I don't have the receipt for warranty work). I have since bought Milwaukee stuff, 2 impact wrenches, drill, multi, grinder and ratchet and I wouldn't change. The only problem is the torque of the big impact wrench is dropping off a little.

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Love my M12 system 1/4" drive ratchet, bought the angle drill too.

Wish the ratchet had a brake though. Will buy more M12 pieces if my Hitachi system batteries ever take a dump.

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Back to boats with wet cores...

 

Last night, a piece of floor underlayment from Home Despot became the new cabin top core in the old Com-Pac 16. Yeah, I probably should have used a higher quality piece of wood, but this one looked nice and was very cheap. I used a small forest of PVC pipes to stick it up there. A view in one of the portlights. Those brown streaks on the far side are all that remains of the old core.

 

cp-16-new-core.jpg

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This thread is wheezing but I gotta share my Millwaukee drill story. I worked construction when I got out of the Army and had half a brain so got to do some management stuff. About once a year, one of our crews doing rehab work on a house would get a broken or badly sprained wrist. We also got a lot of sprained and busted ankles. I asked the boss about it. He said it was the 3/4 horsepower Milwaukee power drills the crews used. We had to bore 2-3" holes through a lot of ganged band joists, usually 2x12s or on older houses true 2-3x12 rough hewn timber. They destroyed lesser drills quickly, and Milwaukee drills would eventually wear out, we'd could send them back and get them re-cored cheaply, so we stuck with them. There was no practical alternative.

 

But all sorts of things were lurking in those joists, including knots, nails and steel brackets, and sometimes plumbing black pipes. When the bore bits hit something, any worker not paying close attention would get thrown off the ladder, get a busted or sprained wrist, or be left hanging on the drill 20 feet off the ground. We used to do daily safety briefings, practice good ladder and safety strap discipline... but nothing helped. The drills would pounce without mercy on any lapse in concentration or technique. They were freaking beasts. If there's a hall of fame for handheld power tools, they would get in on the first ballot.

 

BTW, our workman's comp costs were through the roof because of those damn drills. I wish I'd kept one.

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