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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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4 years, virtually no Match Racing practice or rule refinement. They have their own set of rules, a unique umpiring set up, a unique course and 'allowable' racing conditions  and boats that perform like no others. The whole thing should have been fine tuned by now - but no, everyone involved is still figuring it out and the less than optimal aspects are already effecting the outcome.

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the penalties are indicative of this...the extra penalty that PB incurred today was explained away by slater as being due to the skewed course...must be fucking irritating to try and shed a penalty, slowing, heading, all of a sudden the fucking blue light goes out when you are still decelerating...unless everyone carries a projected position package the same as the judges.

 

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14 minutes ago, barfy said:

the penalties are indicative of this...the extra penalty that PB incurred today was explained away by slater as being due to the skewed course...must be fucking irritating to try and shed a penalty, slowing, heading, all of a sudden the fucking blue light goes out when you are still decelerating...unless everyone carries a projected position package the same as the judges.

 

Fuck you actually watched listened and paid attention, so many on this forum "seemed" to have missed this?

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6 hours ago, Count Drac said:

What a very disappointing race result today against Oracle.

To cop a penalty at the start was unfortunate but most teams have been in that position before, but to sail outside the course boundary and cop another penalty, then to ignore it and cop yet one more was too much and is, I feel, inexcusable for a team of professional sailors.

The end result is that that we lost 6 boat lengths in total, and that may have made the difference between winning and losing. 

Also, this race was not just about getting another win. The tactical situation was that if Oracle won then they effectively won two races – one in the challenger series and one in the match. Of all the races we sailed in the challenger series this race demanded our best performance and we failed. No one will ever know if we would have won if we hadn’t made those stupid mistakes, but they certainly made it much easier for us to lose.

And don’t give me that crap about “holding something back” or some other stupid excuse. This race had a hell of a lot more riding on it than just another win.

I know the guys on the boat will be gutted at how they went, and I hope they really learn from it. I also hope that BAR improve enough to make our guys have to work hard to win each race.

Couldn't have said this better myself!!! I agree 10000%

 

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2 minutes ago, Flags said:

Fuck you actually watched listened and paid attention, so many on this forum "seemed" to have missed this?

well i worked late and only had 3 hours sleep, sharpens the survival response.

Seriously, serving the penalties is a dogs breakfast, voodoo shit.

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So I just now realized that ETNZ threw away both races on the end of the upwind legs. 

 

PB, for fucks sales - Please tack INSIDE of the other boat!!!!!  

Two races thrown away cause of this.  Get to the circle first!!!!

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5 minutes ago, Enzedel92 said:

So I just now realized that ETNZ threw away both races on the end of the upwind legs. 

 

PB, for fucks sales - Please tack INSIDE of the other boat!!!!!  

Two races thrown away cause of this.  Get to the circle first!!!!

Inside boat doesn't need to be there first, just to have an overlap ...

 

Come in coach, PB to the simulator!

 

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

"very nearly paid off" is making excuses. Fact is he chickened out from crossing safely, tried the slamdunk and got penalised for his trouble. And then shortly thereafter copped an automatic second penalty. Before he sailed OB...

It was definitely a dumb move, there was no way ETNZ was going to come out of that tack fast enough to prevent OR from sailing round them.

But there was no penalty at that mark, only at start & later due to crossing boundary near the bottom gate which doubled due to not clearing & which the umpire said was due to the shift.

Should have continued to the starboard gate & come back at OR on starboard during the run.

Should have hunted OR on the previous crossing too.

 

The weird thing is umpires gave France a double for basically same thing at the start & gave a later ruling that if you slow but can't fall back due to a shift the umpires are supposed to clear the penalty.

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2 minutes ago, hoom said:

It was definitely a dumb move, there was no way ETNZ was going to come out of that tack fast enough to prevent OR from sailing round them.

 

Should have continued to the starboard gate & come back at OR on starboard during the run.

Should have hunted OR on the previous crossing too.

 

 

I like ya thinking

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6 hours ago, Lartitude36S said:

I love how everyone has eyes for ETNZ and xerox.

It's going to be the final, isn't it !

Don't sleep on Artemis. If not for a bad penalty they would've finished the RRs with one less win than NZ, including a win over NZ and two over Oracle. And that was in a series where they looked like a mess much of the time. If ETNZ catch them in the right conditions they should be fine, but catch them in the wrong conditions and it could be just as tough as the AC itself.

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What's the thinking behind picking BAR? Wouldn't it have been better to take out Artemis before they have a chance to get better. They were looking better by the end of RR2 and a week long scrap with Japan would give them a chance in the LV finals. I just don't get that move.

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Waiting for the fickle Bermuda wind, composing haiku, thought of Te Ika a Māui and Stingray here, and learning how the North Island got its name: "The Fish of Māui," by Peter Gossage, https://youtu.be/Nb9Y99KQG1k.

Sharing...enjoy.

Aotearoa!
ORACLE defeat's hist'ry
Lazarus comeback
—Captain Gal, O`ahu Ocean Racer | #AmericasCup #haiku

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2 hours ago, pusslicker said:

What's the thinking behind picking BAR? Wouldn't it have been better to take out Artemis before they have a chance to get better. They were looking better by the end of RR2 and a week long scrap with Japan would give them a chance in the LV finals. I just don't get that move.

Wind is supposed to be strong this week (when the semis are) and lighter next weekend and after (when the finals are). Artemis are maybe the best team in stronger winds (beat Oracle twice and ETNZ once) and bad in lighter winds. Makes absolute sense to avoid them now and face them later when the conditions aren't so perfect for them. You're worried about them having a chance in the finals, but they'd have an even batter chance this week, imo.

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2 hours ago, pusslicker said:

What's the thinking behind picking BAR? Wouldn't it have been better to take out Artemis before they have a chance to get better. They were looking better by the end of RR2 and a week long scrap with Japan would give them a chance in the LV finals. I just don't get that move.

I think it's a smart strategic move. First, BA is the strongest match racer of the challengers, and will give ETNZ a good work out in the start box, which they need. Second, BAR has been off the pace, but is starting to show some real game, has the most to gain, and very deep pockets, so limiting the time they have to develop by competing with them first makes sense.

The only risk is that ART will make massive strides in light air during the course of their races with JPN, but Windguru is suggesting it will be fairly breezy after today - another reason ETNZ might not want to go against them first.

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11 hours ago, hoom said:

I'd have thought the blue flashing light on the media mast would have been a bit of a give-away <_<

What if they weren't getting the feed and the blue light wasn't flashing?

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I definitely saw it flashing on the video footage at least shortly after the tack.

Didn't get a clear shot later.

That penalty doesn't show up on the Virtualeye replay, though the one at start did.

 

Regarding ETNZ lack of comms: just listened to this http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/veitch-on-sport/audio/ray-davies-team-nzs-error-ridden-performance/

Ray Davies clearly says ETNZ is setup for PB to do tactics himself -> no need to talk about it.

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9 hours ago, ianz said:

Nonsense. Did you miss the dump tack he slammed on OR? A slick, ballsy move which very nearly paid off.

Interesting move alright. Works a treat with monohulls. Not sure it can with these rocket ships though.

Listening to the audio coming off OTUSA was interesting at that point. Not sure who said it but a very audible "fuck" was heard as ETNZ nailed that one right on their nose. Then Jimmy decided he had the speed to sail right through ETNZ and it was game over.

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3 hours ago, jawjaw said:

Wind is supposed to be strong this week (when the semis are) and lighter next weekend and after (when the finals are). Artemis are maybe the best team in stronger winds (beat Oracle twice and ETNZ once) and bad in lighter winds. Makes absolute sense to avoid them now and face them later when the conditions aren't so perfect for them. You're worried about them having a chance in the finals, but they'd have an even batter chance this week, imo.

 

3 hours ago, surfsailor said:

I think it's a smart strategic move. First, BA is the strongest match racer of the challengers, and will give ETNZ a good work out in the start box, which they need. Second, BAR has been off the pace, but is starting to show some real game, has the most to gain, and very deep pockets, so limiting the time they have to develop by competing with them first makes sense.

The only risk is that ART will make massive strides in light air during the course of their races with JPN, but Windguru is suggesting it will be fairly breezy after today - another reason ETNZ might not want to go against them first.

Ah. Thanks. That makes more sense now. I have just been watching the races piecemeal from the torrents and haven't taken in the strengths and weaknesses of the teams yet.

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7 hours ago, Happie Jack said:

Artemis has beaten Jimmy twice... unlike the noisest fan bases team who are zipola  against OR.

ETNZ have beaten Artemis twice, unlike the other noisiest fanbase who are zipola against Artemis.

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On 3 June 2017 at 6:40 PM, Matt17 said:

Hey guys, listen up - this guy really knows his stuff. He's well connected, with inside connections straight to the upper echelons of OR. Trust me (and more importantly him!) - he's the Oracle of Oracle.

Yeah right. 

Geez, you're sharp!!

FYI I never said what you quoted. Wake up buddy

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1 hour ago, hoom said:

I definitely saw it flashing on the video footage at least shortly after the tack.

Didn't get a clear shot later.

That penalty doesn't show up on the Virtualeye replay, though the one at start did.

 

Regarding ETNZ lack of comms: just listened to this http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/veitch-on-sport/audio/ray-davies-team-nzs-error-ridden-performance/

Ray Davies clearly says ETNZ is setup for PB to do tactics himself -> no need to talk about it.

Ray made a good case for PB deciding tactics by himself but you'd think there would be a lot of comms between the helm and the foil control guys, to get things optimized.

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2 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Ray made a good case for PB deciding tactics by himself but you'd think there would be a lot of comms between the helm and the foil control guys, to get things optimized.

Oh...I think things are pretty well optimised as far as boat speed is concerned.

It's the tactics which need tuning, Stinger.

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On 6/3/2017 at 8:13 PM, Sailing Anarchy. said:

Another dick head.

Oracle are in the final. They do not have to show anything!  Like Team Arabia, they have to continually evolve or be left behind.

Oracle will be improving heeps of kit and have time to trial it. They have to inorder to keep ahead of Team UAEs changes.

And... they have good data gathered now too  

It's a no brainer, unless your a myopic kiwi fanboy, that Oracle will upgrade until the last race. . 

 

 

So you think there are five sheds still full of technological miracles? Like OTUSA's BMX(as even Jimmy Shitspill calls it) that Slingsby pedals as if his life depends on it.? If you do, then you're the dickhead. What you will see from now are tiny tweaks aimed at an extra 10th of a knot, not miracles that will change the way the boats sail. Improvements in skill and sailing techniques are what will make the difference from now, there are no more miracles and if you're still dumb enough to expect them, stand by to be disappointed.

A good example is the latest OTUSA V ETNZ race. There were no enhancements to the Oracle boat. They actually never "won" that race. ETNZ screwed it up and not because their boat was deficient or because their tech had degenerated - they just sailed it very poorly. That will win and lose races from now on. No more miracle cures.

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I don't get the choice of BAR unless they think BAR are getting better quickly (which may be the case). If they think Art is the most likely to challenge them, then why not sail against SBJ and let BAR beat the swedes (as they have done twice already).

But then again the results are a bit screwy anyway. Suggests either its down to mistakes, or luck of which conditions you get - or a bit of both. If so it could be an interesting regatta

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30 minutes ago, sclarke said:

ETNZ have beaten Artemis twice, unlike the other noisiest fanbase who are zipola against Artemis.

fortunately we had opportunities in both oracle races, but equally one of the art races could have gone the other way.  

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25 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Oh...I think things are pretty well optimised as far as boat speed is concerned.

It's the tactics which need tuning, Stinger.

Completely agree but was curious if the helm can change course/speed without optimally having the foil trimmer in sync.

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6 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Completely agree but was curious if the helm can change course/speed without optimally having the foil trimmer in sync.

They sailed 49ers for a really long time together, doesn't that give you telepathic empathy or something?  The Vulcan Mind Meld???

Something....

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4 minutes ago, Loose Cannon said:

They sailed 49ers for a really long time together, doesn't that give you telepathic empathy or something?  The Vulcan Mind Meld???

Something....

Maybe they do use verbal cues, but short-barely perceptible ones nobody else picks up on listening to the replays. Would help GA too, to know wth is about to happen at the wheel.

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ETNZ might have decent speed and can keep on the foils, but they are showing what happens when you have a serious lack of race time and less time on the water than the others. Their starts are less than average and they keep making basic errors. If Burling really is doing the tactics himself, this has to be one of the most dumb ideas I have seen in this edition. As if the helm hasn't got enough to do, with sailing at max speed and adjusting the foils. At very least you need somebody to be discussing the calls with. Listen to OR or Artemis, somebody to count down to the boundaries and to generally feed the information the decision maker needs. Even in 2 man dinghies, the best teams have big communications going on with as much information as possible being fed to the decision maker. With the silence on the boat, it means that Burling is doing all the observing, all the forward thinking about not only his boat but the opposition and is having to keep his head out of the boat too much while the rest of the crew have their heads down (literally) far too much.

I hope ETNZ aren't as complacent about their performance against Artemis and Oracle as their supporters. 2-0 against Oracle, who haven't beaten Artemis since February in either the real racing or the practices racing plus knowing that if it were not for a wrong umpire call they were beaten fair and square on the water and in reality are no better than 1-1 against Artemis is not the dominant performance the Fanboys are making it out to be.

There is no doubt that ETNZ have a good boat. While there may well be more speed to come, at the moment it is not showing itself to be a step ahead of OR or Artemis while in a breeze, must neutrals think Artemis has an edge. ETNZ is believed to have a light wind weapon, but it hasn't been proven against the top teams while Artemis is said to have a light wind weakness yet stuffed up and sailed with the wrong foils in the lighter winds.

There is everything to play for and if ETNZ doesn't raise its game, they will be in trouble. Choosing BAR was a very smart move because they will get the best starting practice against a team they should be able to beat even if they lose the start. With the forecasts, Artemis was always a big risk while SBTJ would have been an easy win without learning too much. IMO, choosing BAR was one of the smarter calls made by ETNZ since arriving in BDA.

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2 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

If Burling really is doing the tactics himself, this has to be one of the most dumb ideas I have seen in this edition. As if the helm hasn't got enough to do, with sailing at max speed and adjusting the foils.

It's been reported that Burling has nothing to do with the foil adjustment at all unlike all the other helmsmen.   That's why he does have time to look outside the boat etc.  Tuke does them on his bike.  He has controls there as far as I know and what has been shown on tv.

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5 minutes ago, Geotta said:

It's been reported that Burling has nothing to do with the foil adjustment at all unlike all the other helmsmen.   That's why he does have time to look outside the boat etc.  Tuke does them on his bike.  He has controls there as far as I know and what has been shown on tv.

That's exactly what Ray D said yesterday. They 'customized' the whole operation around putting the decision making all on PB.

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14 minutes ago, Geotta said:

It's been reported that Burling has nothing to do with the foil adjustment at all unlike all the other helmsmen.   That's why he does have time to look outside the boat etc.  Tuke does them on his bike.  He has controls there as far as I know and what has been shown on tv.

 

20 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

. As if the helm hasn't got enough to do, with sailing at max speed and adjusting the foils. At very least you need somebody 

FFS Tits_GBR pay attention ...

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12 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

ETNZ might have decent speed and can keep on the foils, but they are showing what happens when you have a serious lack of race time and less time on the water than the others. Their starts are less than average and they keep making basic errors. If Burling really is doing the tactics himself, this has to be one of the most dumb ideas I have seen in this edition. As if the helm hasn't got enough to do, with sailing at max speed and adjusting the foils. At very least you need somebody to be discussing the calls with. Listen to OR or Artemis, somebody to count down to the boundaries and to generally feed the information the decision maker needs. Even in 2 man dinghies, the best teams have big communications going on with as much information as possible being fed to the decision maker. With the silence on the boat, it means that Burling is doing all the observing, all the forward thinking about not only his boat but the opposition and is having to keep his head out of the boat too much while the rest of the crew have their heads down (literally) far too much.

I hope ETNZ aren't as complacent about their performance against Artemis and Oracle as their supporters. 2-0 against Oracle, who haven't beaten Artemis since February in either the real racing or the practices racing plus knowing that if it were not for a wrong umpire call they were beaten fair and square on the water and in reality are no better than 1-1 against Artemis is not the dominant performance the Fanboys are making it out to be.

There is no doubt that ETNZ have a good boat. While there may well be more speed to come, at the moment it is not showing itself to be a step ahead of OR or Artemis while in a breeze, must neutrals think Artemis has an edge. ETNZ is believed to have a light wind weapon, but it hasn't been proven against the top teams while Artemis is said to have a light wind weakness yet stuffed up and sailed with the wrong foils in the lighter winds.

There is everything to play for and if ETNZ doesn't raise its game, they will be in trouble. Choosing BAR was a very smart move because they will get the best starting practice against a team they should be able to beat even if they lose the start. With the forecasts, Artemis was always a big risk while SBTJ would have been an easy win without learning too much. IMO, choosing BAR was one of the smarter calls made by ETNZ since arriving in BDA.

Yawn. Ray Davies said Burling does tactics because that's what he's good at. My guess is he discusses what he needs to with Ashby and then makes a call. Tuke controls the foils leaving Pete to look around the course. If you think ETNZ is complacent and isn't going to raise their game, you're an idiot. The only team in trouble is BAR, because they clearly have a speed problem. Yes Artemis is fast and strong. Guaranteed ETNZ, and their fans know that. But we also feel confident at 2-0 up that we can get past them. Jesus. Did you really need to write a novel that basically says "I don't want ETNZ to win"

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53 minutes ago, Cassidy said:

So you think there are five sheds still full of technological miracles? Like OTUSA's BMX(as even Jimmy Shitspill calls it) that Slingsby pedals as if his life depends on it.? If you do, then you're the dickhead. What you will see from now are tiny tweaks aimed at an extra 10th of a knot, not miracles that will change the way the boats sail. Improvements in skill and sailing techniques are what will make the difference from now, there are no more miracles and if you're still dumb enough to expect them, stand by to be disappointed.

A good example is the latest OTUSA V ETNZ race. There were no enhancements to the Oracle boat. They actually never "won" that race. ETNZ screwed it up and not because their boat was deficient or because their tech had degenerated - they just sailed it very poorly. That will win and lose races from now on. No more miracle cures.

You have a very strange definition of won.

It seems that you think Oracle is only entitled to call a win a win if etnz sails a flawless race. Here's a better definition of won: they go the point.

The question remains as to whether you do.

If etnz want to progress to the match let alone win it then they need to improve their tactics - full stop. 

Despite the turkey you quoted  (please don't quote him btw,  I have him on ignore ) being a total dick head,  he is right about more shit in the shed. Both etnz and Oracle have more to come. ETNZ have been pretty open about this.

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People wondering why ETNZ chose BAR over Artemis are missing the point.

When you have the right to choose you pick the weakest team.

They're not counting their chickens before they are hatched. You need to make it to the final first. 

You pick the weakest team and hope who you perceive to be the next weakest (SBTJ) takes out the next strongest (ART) in the next semi final.

Why pick Artemis if there is a chance you wont have to race them at all?

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So many people bagging on Burling. Yes, we ALL admit Pete made a lot of mistakes in that final race. Some of them fundamental. Hell, even he admits it. I don't know what more people want. Pete is the least experienced helm in this AC. He doesn't have a match racing background, or a multihull background. What he brings to the table is much more than what he lacks. Thats why he is there. He brings to the table sailing skill, an ability to learn quickly, structural engineering knowledge, foiling moth knowledge, but most of all, a WINNING CULTURE. He is by far NZ's best sailor at the moment along with Blair Tuke. He knows what it takes to make a boat go fast. In terms of match racing, Barker and Ainslie are 2 of the most experienced match racers in this event, and Burling has proved to be better than both of them. Both Ainslie and Barker have cleaned Spithill out in starts, but if you have a choice between winning the start, or winning the finish, you'd definitely pick winning the finish, Something Pete has a great track record of achieving.

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Who is bagging Burling? Geez, thin skin you have...

The discussion above is about what JS pointed to and what Ray D confirmed, that PB is The Decider. Not much input, the tactics are mostly all on just him.

A winning thing? We'll see, it's been mostly very good so far.

 

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One is tempted to suggest that boatspeed alone enabled Burling to win against Ainslie and Barker, rather than match-racing smarts. I'm getting fed up with the "We'll learn from today and move forward!". For a "quick" learner, he seems to repeat the same dumb mistakes far too often...

Anyway, there's tomorrow morning to look forward to to see if the "learning" process manifests itself in fewer - or preferably, no -mistakes. I prefer to believe that Burling has been laying the most Blackadder-like trail of deception designed to suck in the opposition - which seems to be working its magic on Spithill :lol:

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Gtran: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://www.corriere.it/sport/17_giugno_05/sirena-missione-luna-rossa-coppa-america-9fcd2f9c-495d-11e7-bdef-f5dafe5374ed.shtml%3Frefresh_ce-cp&usg=ALkJrhi_5Km7ebyEiY0uI2nYq4PQCNxQfA

.. "And Bertelli would not change Siren. "He inquires. And it will come if the kiwi goes to America Cup.Patrick's sail is a disease. We support Team New Zealand: only under these conditions can the moon rise. "

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26 minutes ago, jaysper said:

You have a very strange definition of won.

It seems that you think Oracle is only entitled to call a win a win if etnz sails a flawless race. Here's a better definition of won: they go the point.

The question remains as to whether you do.

If etnz want to progress to the match let alone win it then they need to improve their tactics - full stop. 

Despite the turkey you quoted  (please don't quote him btw,  I have him on ignore ) being a total dick head,  he is right about more shit in the shed. Both etnz and Oracle have more to come. ETNZ have been pretty open about this.

You're quite right - what I meant was ETNZ essentially blew the race with errors, trying to make the point that OTUSA never introduced some earth-shattering new tech that gave them a huge edge, they had PB to lose the race.

As far as ETNZ saying they have more innovation to come, they're just trying to emulate Shitspill's mind games. Sure they'll be learning small tweaks along the way but they were competing for what could have been a 1-race advantage in the Cup. That's big potatoes - they're gonna do whatever it takes to win. The fact that PB screwed the pooch doesn't change that. At least I don't think it does.

Don't get me wrong - I pray that ETNZ have more magic in the shed - I just don't believe they do.

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3 minutes ago, Cassidy said:

As far as ETNZ saying they have more innovation to come, they're just trying to emulate Shitspill's mind games. 

Don't get me wrong - I pray that ETNZ have more magic in the shed - I just don't believe they do.

Actually ETNZ have been saying the same thing long before the start of the LVACQ's, so claiming that they're simply doing tit-for-tat mind games with Spithill is wide of the mark. I'm more inclined to believe ETNZ than Spithill's claims over their hybrid "development" or the 10 & 12 "boat-builders from Warkworth" flying into BDA. I'm not at all convinced about Slingsby's cycle "grinder": the way he sits upright and pedals away merrily does not give the impression that his cycle-grinder is loaded at all. Watch the ETNZ cyclors straining to pedal against a dead-headed loaded hydraulic pump for the difference. And the way Spithill seems to make a big joke about their "hybrid system we developed" is a bit suspect...

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The only ones that are entitle to have magic in the shed are TO (they don't have to show it yet) The rest, if they have, they have to show it now, or they will go out.

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18 minutes ago, Indio said:

One is tempted to suggest that boatspeed alone enabled Burling to win against Ainslie and Barker, rather than match-racing smarts. I'm getting fed up with the "We'll learn from today and move forward!". For a "quick" learner, he seems to repeat the same dumb mistakes far too often...

Anyway, there's tomorrow morning to look forward to to see if the "learning" process manifests itself in fewer - or preferably, no -mistakes. I prefer to believe that Burling has been laying the most Blackadder-like trail of deception designed to suck in the opposition - which seems to be working its magic on Spithill :lol:

I agree that racing skills are paramount and happily that's an area where we can improve. Problem is so can everyone else.

Burling has handed Sir Ben a sailing lesson more than once (including the only recorded DNF so far) so there is no reason he can't again. He also has the only perfect fly-time record and we've seen what happens when hulls touch water. He's had to rely on outside influences to win against Nathan O so that's the real threat here. Hopefully Barker can deal with on our behalf.;)

I still have faith in PB.

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I'm biased / optimistic here, but I think they did have a motivation to leave the good gear in the shed at the moment. They are absolutely paranoid about being overtaken in the tech race, and only have to do enough to progress to the next stage. 

Yes, that race was what may become Race 1 of the AC finals, with a point at stake, but it would be prudent not to reveal any game changers with OR having 2 weeks off the water before Race 2 of the finals starts. 

A change to the 'good gear' may also take more than overnight, and it only became apparent a point would be at stake when ART beat OR the day before, so it may have just not been possible to switch to it. 

However, that still doesn't excuse dumb decisions on the race track.... That wasn't fun to watch... 

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12 hours ago, Indio said:

"very nearly paid off" is making excuses. Fact is he chickened out from crossing safely, tried the slamdunk and got penalised for his trouble. And then shortly thereafter copped an automatic second penalty. Before he sailed OB...

For a "fast learner", he seems to be a recidivist penalty-magnet.

Eh, what the fuck are you talking about? He didn't get penalised at all. ETNZ pushed for a penalty against OR but he wasn't successful, go back and take a look at the replay.

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4 minutes ago, Indio said:

Actually ETNZ have been saying the same thing long before the start of the LVACQ's . . . . 

Yes and back then I'm sure it was very true. Not so sure anymore.

Perhaps the geniuses resident on this thread would risk flexing their obviously superior outside-the-square minds and postulating what sort of "new" innovation is still possible on the boats as we've seen them up to yesterday. C'mon, I dare you.

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37 minutes ago, Indio said:

One is tempted to suggest that boatspeed alone enabled Burling to win against Ainslie and Barker, rather than match-racing smarts. I'm getting fed up with the "We'll learn from today and move forward!". For a "quick" learner, he seems to repeat the same dumb mistakes far too often...

Anyway, there's tomorrow morning to look forward to to see if the "learning" process manifests itself in fewer - or preferably, no -mistakes. I prefer to believe that Burling has been laying the most Blackadder-like trail of deception designed to suck in the opposition - which seems to be working its magic on Spithill :lol:

This cycle is less about match racing and more about straight speed (and that stupid fucking rectangle).

I can't understand why teams are engaging in the pre-start, speed off the line wins Mk1 everytime.

Agree with the OR bmx, it's free spinning, pretty easy to see.

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6 minutes ago, Cassidy said:

Yes and back then I'm sure it was very true. Not so sure anymore.

Perhaps the geniuses resident on this thread would risk flexing their obviously superior outside-the-square minds and postulating what sort of "new" innovation is still possible on the boats as we've seen them up to yesterday. C'mon, I dare you.

Flux6-14-2011-2.jpg

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11 minutes ago, Nodrog said:

IHowever, that still doesn't excuse dumb decisions on the race track.... That wasn't fun to watch... 

Both losses to OR-Xerox can be traced to fundamental errors on the course: the good news is that ETNZ have been very competitive even when they've lost the start. Best comment was by a smiling Burling after Race 1 against OR-Xerox: " I think they were a little surprised how fast we were upwind!"

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12 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Flux6-14-2011-2.jpg

Nailed it, as soon as they hit 38 knots they disappear and re-appear at the finish line, to smash everyone by 16 minutes!

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2 minutes ago, justsomeone said:

Team OR have supposedly  had 10 boat-builder from Warkworth clocking up approx 12,000 hrs that's a lot of change

 

Boat 2.

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10 minutes ago, barfy said:

it begins with a "P".

It's either a Predator cloaking device, or a 

Pythagorean-powered pilot, calculating the shortest distance to the marks ;)

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3 minutes ago, justsomeone said:

Team OR have supposedly  had 10 boat-builder from Warkworth clocking up approx 12,000 hrs that's a lot of change

 

And another 12 on the way, apparently B). Can't be anyone left at Warkworth...

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Just now, Indio said:

And another 12 on the way, apparently B). Can't be anyone left at Warkworth...

Mince n cheese pie sales down 67%

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2 minutes ago, justsomeone said:

Team OR have supposedly  had 10 boat-builder from Warkworth clocking up approx 12,000 hrs that's a lot of change

 

The key word being SUPPOSEDLY....they said this last time and I still have my doubts they actually changed fuck all...it's all mind games people...I've said that already. The bike at at back, may or may not be doing fuck all but it's got everyone talking about it, asking the question, are they going to go full cyclors?? Fuck off, ignore the BS and look for small adjustments here and there. 

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7 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

. . . . .ingore the BS and look for small adjustments here and there. 

Exactly!

It would actually be entertaining to see 22 boatbuilders working on an AC60 at the same time. They'd be standing on each other. What a load of bollocks.

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2 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Boat 2.

Maybe. Even though they could have launched a second boat 30 days before the start of the LVACQ's, they can't race them against each other until the LVACQ Final is completed - which gives them only 4 days from the 13th to 16th June to two-boat test. But if they plan to damage-beyond-repair their boat1 so they can use boat2, they need to do it by the 13th June (4 days qualification in Proto)...so boat2 is highly improbable.

The more likely scenario is the Warkworth boat-builders have been installing cycle-grinders, with a set of cyclors who have been training in secret replacing the coffee-grinders, which also explains why Slingsby has been training in plain sight on his cycle "grinder" - he and Spithill will be on the boat with the new cyclors. 

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11 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

The key word being SUPPOSEDLY....they said this last time and I still have my doubts they actually changed fuck all...it's all mind games people...I've said that already. The bike at at back, may or may not be doing fuck all but it's got everyone talking about it, asking the question, are they going to go full cyclors?? Fuck off, ignore the BS and look for small adjustments here and there. 

There's no way ORUSA will add more bikes - their grinder crew have developed their physiques for upper body strength and endurance - they wouldn't last on bikes, and can't make that physique change before the finals. - not to mention choreographing a whole new set of procedures during tacks, roundings, etc.

But, I think we all know that ALL boats will have 100% cycle-based grinding at the next cup.

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16 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Mince n cheese pie sales down 67%

The Lions supporters would have more than made up for it on the way back from the game in Whangarei...

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The boatbuilders OR have coming to Bermuda is no different than the boatbuilders ETNZ has also mentioned. As time to the Cup gets closer, so do delivery times matter more. Getting people closer to the action is surely true on other teams too, it's simply logical to plan it that way from back-when.

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23 minutes ago, Indio said:

And another 12 on the way, apparently B). Can't be anyone left at Warkworth...

They are probably needed to be on standby, ready to work 24hr shifts to rebuild the boat fast when Jimmy gets a cross wrong and gets forked.

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5 minutes ago, Indio said:

Maybe. Even though they could have launched a second boat 30 days before the start of the LVACQ's, they can't race them against each other until the LVACQ Final is completed - which gives them only 4 days from the 13th to 16th June to two-boat test. But if they plan to damage-beyond-repair their boat1 so they can use boat2, they need to do it by the 13th June (4 days qualification in Proto)...so boat2 is highly improbable.

In your mind 'boat2 is highly improbable.'

Let me guess, your title is 

Herbie Here We Come? :D

Lovebugmviepstr.jpg

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1 hour ago, Cassidy said:

You're quite right - what I meant was ETNZ essentially blew the race with errors, trying to make the point that OTUSA never introduced some earth-shattering new tech that gave them a huge edge, they had PB to lose the race.

As far as ETNZ saying they have more innovation to come, they're just trying to emulate Shitspill's mind games. Sure they'll be learning small tweaks along the way but they were competing for what could have been a 1-race advantage in the Cup. That's big potatoes - they're gonna do whatever it takes to win. The fact that PB screwed the pooch doesn't change that. At least I don't think it does.

Don't get me wrong - I pray that ETNZ have more magic in the shed - I just don't believe they do.

They had more in the shed last time and held onto it until closer to cup time - pie warmers anyone? 

This time they will hold back much more for longer after the lessons learnt last time.

Will it be enough? Not if they drive the boat like their last race.

But if they drive it well, then yeah maybe. Hopefully. 

 

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The Cheaters must be getting desperate. They can't just roll out a boat2 and use it without first fucking up boat1, and they can't just swap out the hulls for the same reason. Is it a coincidence that on the final day of RR's, the Umpires are asked to clarify the procedure for filing a Claim of Non-Compliance (CnC) with the AC Class Rule - and on the same day OR-Xerox announce another 12 b-b's from Warkworth arriving in town?

 

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

"And Bertelli would not change Siren. "He inquires. And it will come if the kiwi goes to America Cup.Patrick's sail is a disease. We support Team New Zealand: only under these conditions can the moon rise. "

The translation is far more intriguing and mysterious than the original statement. And who's Patrick? I hope he does not live in a pineapple. 

 

1 hour ago, FinnFish said:

Flux6-14-2011-2.jpg

In the presser PB referred to parts yet to arrive in Bermuda. Clearly he's referring to the critical shortage of NZ flux capacitors to be replenished. 

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1 hour ago, Cassidy said:

Yes and back then I'm sure it was very true. Not so sure anymore.

Perhaps the geniuses resident on this thread would risk flexing their obviously superior outside-the-square minds and postulating what sort of "new" innovation is still possible on the boats as we've seen them up to yesterday. C'mon, I dare you.

Fuck it! I'll make some wild speculations. 

1. New profiles for the foils.

2. End plate seal for the wing.

3. Improvements to the wing.

4. As someone else said,  a flux capacitor.

 

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7 minutes ago, Indio said:

The Cheaters must be getting desperate. They can't just roll out a boat2 and use it without first fucking up boat1, and they can't just swap out the hulls for the same reason. Is it a coincidence that on the final day of RR's, the Umpires are asked to clarify the procedure for filing a Claim of Non-Compliance (CnC) with the AC Class Rule - and on the same day OR-Xerox announce another 12 b-b's from Warkworth arriving in town?

 

Boat 2 will be rolled out after boat 1 is; 1) dropped from the crane, 2) driven to the wharf at high speed, 3) holed and sunk, 4) washed up on a reef, or 5) T-boned.

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11 minutes ago, Indio said:

The Cheaters must be getting desperate. They can't just roll out a boat2 and use it without first fucking up boat1, and they can't just swap out the hulls for the same reason. Is it a coincidence that on the final day of RR's, the Umpires are asked to clarify the procedure for filing a Claim of Non-Compliance (CnC) with the AC Class Rule - and on the same day OR-Xerox announce another 12 b-b's from Warkworth arriving in town?

 

You're suggesting OR protested their own boat, so that OR can launch your imaginary 'boat2' ?

:D:D:D 

Damn you're a nutcase, Herbio, :D 

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5 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Boat 2 will be rolled out after boat 1 is; 1) dropped from the crane, 2) driven to the wharf at high speed, 3) holed and sunk, 4) washed up on a reef, or 5) T-boned.

:D

What the hell drain-bramaging element is in the drinking water down there?

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3 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

You're suggesting OR protested their own boat, so that OR can launch your imaginary 'boat2' ?

:D:D:D 

Damn you're a nutcase, Herbio, :D 

What gave it away?..not the Cheaters reference surely??:lol:

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

Actually ETNZ have been saying the same thing long before the start of the LVACQ's, so claiming that they're simply doing tit-for-tat mind games with Spithill is wide of the mark. I'm more inclined to believe ETNZ than Spithill's claims over their hybrid "development" or the 10 & 12 "boat-builders from Warkworth" flying into BDA. I'm not at all convinced about Slingsby's cycle "grinder": the way he sits upright and pedals away merrily does not give the impression that his cycle-grinder is loaded at all. Watch the ETNZ cyclors straining to pedal against a dead-headed loaded hydraulic pump for the difference. And the way Spithill seems to make a big joke about their "hybrid system we developed" is a bit suspect...

pretty well proven that OR struggle to come up with their own ideas.   so stealing from others they may, change the wing control from sheet to hydro, cyclors, art dagger board system, jib less?, more aero,  short of crew fairings and stuff there doesnt seem a lot of structural changes to make. 

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

One is tempted to suggest that boatspeed alone enabled Burling to win against Ainslie and Barker, rather than match-racing smarts. I'm getting fed up with the "We'll learn from today and move forward!". For a "quick" learner, he seems to repeat the same dumb mistakes far too often...

Anyway, there's tomorrow morning to look forward to to see if the "learning" process manifests itself in fewer - or preferably, no -mistakes. I prefer to believe that Burling has been laying the most Blackadder-like trail of deception designed to suck in the opposition - which seems to be working its magic on Spithill :lol:

they did well on up wind shift picking in some of those races.  but mark rounding and starts are weakish.  

To be fair the only mistake they have repeated is the top mark with jimmy.   

 

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Fuck it! I'll make some wild speculations. 

1. New profiles for the foils. Not new tech, AFAIK not permitted but then again OTUSA apparently have foil tips they can change.

2. End plate seal for the wing. Maybe something like the vortex-reducing tips on Airbus wings? Could be, Airbus sponsor Shitspill.

3. Improvements to the wing. Too vague, not earth-shattering enough, be specific.

4. As someone else said,  a flux capacitor. Yep, that'll work.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Indio said:

What gave it away?..not the Cheaters reference surely??:lol:

It was another gigantic 'is it a coincidence?' reach around by you.

Since you can't be serious, why come off looking like a complete twat even posting crapola like that? Like your Herbie obsession, the coming 'boat2' is another dumb tangent.

Jaysper listed some fun upgrade possibilities above, that may apply to any team. 

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3 minutes ago, Cassidy said:

 

I never said new tech nor earth shattering. Just more shit in the shed and a lot of it.

Even the cyclors aren't new tech.

But if they have all of the above plus a bunch of other shit (some of which presumably won't be visible) then it should add up to a really significant boost in performance. 

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2 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

It was another gigantic 'is it a coincidence?' reach around by you.

Since you can't be serious, why come off looking like a such complete fool even posting crapola like that? Like your Herbie obsession, the coming 'boat2' is another dumb tangent.

Jaysper listed some fun upgrade possibilities above, that may apply to any team. 

OR-Xerox = AC34 cheats. Would not be surprised if they are cheating in AC35. Old habits and all that, compounded by an acute lack of technical creativity leading to Xeroxing others' ideas.

No coincidence at all - a team has latched onto an OR-Xerox potential cheat. Again.:lol:

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6 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

It was another gigantic 'is it a coincidence?' reach around by you.

Since you can't be serious, why come off looking like a such complete fool even posting crapola like that? Like your Herbie obsession, the coming 'boat2' is another dumb tangent.

Jaysper listed some fun upgrade possibilities above, that may apply to any team. 

Forget it. He has me on ignore thank fuck. 

Something about my crazy idea that he should either offer proof of cheating in the cup or shut the fuck up.

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16 minutes ago, Qman said:

pretty well proven that OR struggle to come up with their own ideas.   so stealing from others they may, change the wing control from sheet to hydro, cyclors, art dagger board system, jib less?, more aero,  short of crew fairings and stuff there doesnt seem a lot of structural changes to make. 

It wasn't structural changes which gave them a 9 - zip finish last time either (Indio's, Herbie assertion aside). But they'll likely find more speed with what they've already got. 

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6 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Forget it. He has me on ignore thank fuck. 

Something about my crazy idea that he should either offer proof of cheating in the cup or shut the fuck up.

Cheers, lol

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

I'm not at all convinced about Slingsby's cycle "grinder": the way he sits upright and pedals away merrily does not give the impression that his cycle-grinder is loaded at all. Watch the ETNZ cyclors straining to pedal against a dead-headed loaded hydraulic pump for the difference. And the way Spithill seems to make a big joke about their "hybrid system we developed" is a bit suspect...

For somebody who claims to know so much, you miss a lot. As you rightly point out, the ETNZ cyclors seem to be constantly straining against the pedals yet on OR, we regularly see Slingsby not even at the grinder station. In Lighter conditions he is up forward while in heavier breeze and downwind, he is behind Spithill. OR has been the first team to shift the crew about depending on direction and mode and others are trying it as well. ETNZ cannot. Slingsby is clearly pedalling against something because there are times when he does not sit upright but holds on as you see him pushing harder. 

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1 minute ago, Team_GBR said:

For somebody who claims to know so much, you miss a lot. As you rightly point out, the ETNZ cyclors seem to be constantly straining against the pedals yet on OR, we regularly see Slingsby not even at the grinder station. In Lighter conditions he is up forward while in heavier breeze and downwind, he is behind Spithill. OR has been the first team to shift the crew about depending on direction and mode and others are trying it as well. ETNZ cannot. Slingsby is clearly pedalling against something because there are times when he does not sit upright but holds on as you see him pushing harder. 

Remember ETNZ were trying it in practice. Tuke was up forward of the wing...until the rules got changed...again.

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3 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Cheers, lol

I'm not saying they didn't cheat, I wouldn't have a clue.

But I have no proof either way and neither does fuck face and until he does (I. E. Never) it would be nice if he stuck to his area of expertise. 

Oh hang on, looks like he IS sticking to his expertise - being a shit stirring fuck head.

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5 hours ago, hoom said:

Regarding ETNZ lack of comms: just listened to this http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/veitch-on-sport/audio/ray-davies-team-nzs-error-ridden-performance/

Ray Davies clearly says ETNZ is setup for PB to do tactics himself -> no need to talk about it.

Every time I hear Ray Davis talk about tactics I recall the AC34 races where ETNZ was closing in on OR downwind who were stuck dead in a lull... Upon reaching OR at 4 times their speed instead of making them pay for it he advised the boat to gybe out to the boundary close to Alcatraz upon which we threw away a potentially massive lead (even if we'd stayed in the same space as them we'd have been 10 boat lengths ahead of them and between them and the mark. That call there cost ETNZ the cup as much as any other other mistake that was made elsewhere imo.

Is he really that good, or is he mainly good at keeping his job?

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3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I'm not saying they didn't cheat, I wouldn't have a clue.

But I have no proof either way and neither does fuck face and until he does (I. E. Never) it would be nice if he stuck to his area of expertise. 

Oh hang on, looks like he IS sticking to his expertise - being a shit stirring fuck head.

It'll get even more intensely bizarre so fasten up ;)

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3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Remember ETNZ were trying it in practice. Tuke was up forward of the wing...until the rules got changed...again.

Every team has had somebody forward (I think that Percy was the first I saw) but we haven't seen Tuke or anybody else behind the helm downwind. That is the key reason for the bike on OR, because they have have found the boat to be better with weight back, which makes total sense seeing that every other foiler has that characteristic.

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3 hours ago, Geotta said:

It's been reported that Burling has nothing to do with the foil adjustment at all unlike all the other helmsmen.   That's why he does have time to look outside the boat etc.  Tuke does them on his bike.  He has controls there as far as I know and what has been shown on tv.

Burling can adjust the foils and probably does it during the maneuvers - he can just leave it to Tuke when they're sailing along to free him up to look around and be aware of the other boat, the wind etc (as can Tuke).

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

So many people bagging on Burling. Yes, we ALL admit Pete made a lot of mistakes in that final race. Some of them fundamental. Hell, even he admits it. I don't know what more people want. Pete is the least experienced helm in this AC. He doesn't have a match racing background, or a multihull background.

Finally, you get it. Add the lack of time on the water and the lack of race training and you begin to get a true picture. I have no doubt that given time, Burling could be a good AC helm but at the moment, it is boatspeed that is making him look anything other than very ordinary. His match racing has been the weakest of the top boats. As for what you claim he brinmgs, such as his foiling experience, that does not stack up. When sailing identical boats in the LVWS, BAR were the team that got up on foils in the lightest conditions, followed by Artemis. That is when Burling we should have been able to see if Burling had something the others don't have. 

I agree that Burling is the best in NZ and he certqainly deserves his position in the boat but at the moment, there are too many mistakes and others are doing a better job, but in slower boats. With time, Burling will get there, but in equal boats, it would be a fool who bet on Burling over the other 3 helms in the semis. Fortunately for ETNZ, the boats are not equal.

 

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12 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

It wasn't structural changes which gave them a 9 - zip finish last time either (Indio's, Herbie assertion aside). But they'll likely find more speed with what they've already got. 

"Herbie" was a media beat-up. OR-Xerox's cheat involved using a mechanical feedback from the foil to effect auto-adjustment using the stepper motor on the indexing linear actuator - both components now specifically banned in AC35 Class Rule, just as mechanical (or electronic, or optical) feedback was banned in AC34. The IJ identified the mechanical feedback but did not rule on it because they were not asked to. It was a Measurement Committee fuck-up. Was it illegal? Yep. Did OR-Xerox use it? Yes. Conclusion? They cheated.Those who can't recognise or accept the illegality including the muppet from Wellington are drowning in the river in Egypt.

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