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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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23 minutes ago, hoom said:

 

 

Must have been one of the most sharp gust -> glass transitions ever...

vlcsnap-2017-06-17-23h37m10s446.jpg

ZroflOy.png

At this point ETNZ was still slowing (bottomed out at 17.8kt) but done turning, OR track has hardly turned but the boat is way off axis, down speed & bows in.

 

There is an odd straight line slow up though

28.4kt & faster than ETNZ

hTqYu95.png

Down to 24.3 as ETNZ (also slowed but less) start their gybe

CEcCVMw.png

And 18.5 as he starts the turn

psJbmAi.png

 

His other vid was pre-race so I presume this was too? Someone with a Youtube account could ask in the Comments?

 

Wingtrimming lessons from Gashby.

I wonder if there is full races worth & do we get to see the same from onboard OR?

Definitely NOT due to loss of wind as the boats were less than 50m apart.

Interestingly Orifice seems to veer left momentarily just before executing the gybe. Perhaps this was due to not being able to get foil fully down in time because immediately after that they just bath it.

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38 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

You are a fucking Ocker twit supreme!  And an idiot to boot,  Some of my best mates are Ozzers but you give the sunburnt country a bad name.

Gladwell has a long and good reputation as a senior sailing jurist and breaks his balls bringing us fair and accurate coverage from all over the world 24/7.  He's pure gold.

And your "alleged female journalists"?  Actually they are all real females, part of the pussy brigade, even if their questions are questionable.

May all the chips, shitty or otherwise, fall on your empty and hapless head.

So I take it the anger management classes are not working for you?.......  I really dont care about your "love in" with Gladwell - I've known him for over 20 years, we dont see eye to eye on a lot of things, especially racing,  my opinion & yeah stud, this is Anarchy......

Wow, so you have mates? Who knew? and Aussies as well??? WOW - How special & I am very happy for you....... so in short (as I feel you may be vertically challenged anyway) Harden the fuck up Princess, 

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3 minutes ago, weta27 said:

"Did P really do a rabbit ear / peace sign behind J during the SG interview?"

Looks like a "2 wins" to me!

Or 2 losses today Jimmy. PB has an evil sense of humour - who'd a thunk it

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Sportsbet Latest Odds AC Winner

ETNZ $1.40

OTUSA $2.60

its official now. I did suggest for everyone to get on at $4.00 earlier in the challenger series. What's happened now is the Kiwi strategy was to leave the best for the cup when it's too late for Oracle to comeback. By tomorrow it will be 3-0 and the difference this time is Burling. Jimmy is feeling the pressure and the luck bag is empty. 

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I think both boats ran out of hydraulic pressure today and fell dramatically off the foils, after short prior windups from the previous manoeuvre. ETNZ was able to quickly regenerate enough pressure quickly and get foiling again. OR took forever.

Pete was waiting for cyclors to run round the front of the wing (3 I think) before GA got tired of steering and called him round the back of the wing. No confusion about finishing. They just had shitty last angles to bottom gate and finish.Some argument amongst after guard about poor VMG foiling vs going displacement upwind with PB wanting to keep foiling even when going straight across the course. Fascinating.  

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3 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

I think both boats ran out of hydraulic pressure today and fell dramatically off the foils, after short prior windups from the previous manoeuvre. ETNZ was able to quickly regenerate enough pressure quickly and get foiling again. OR took forever.

 

1

That 0-60 that ETNZ did with Oracle hurtling at them at the mark was unbelievable

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4 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Sportsbet Latest Odds AC Winner

ETNZ $1.40

OTUSA $2.60

its official now. I did suggest for everyone to get on at $4.00 earlier in the challenger series. What's happened now is the Kiwi strategy was to leave the best for the cup when it's too late for Oracle to comeback. By tomorrow it will be 3-0 and the difference this time is Burling. Jimmy is feeling the pressure and the luck bag is empty. 

Been saying this for ages and been falling on deaf ears.

I just hope we've got more in the tank and Orifice don't. 

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On 8 June 2017 at 2:51 PM, ncs said:

The measurement situation has become more interesting in the last several days. The person assigned to ensuring teams' adherence to the electronics part of the Class Rule is apparently no longer working for the Measurement Committee. This person has very privileged & intimate knowledge of all the team's electronics and control systems. If he's no longer doing that job, then who is? Will the fox soon be guarding the hen house? Stay tuned. This topic should probably should be in a new, separate thread (but not by me.)

Remember this post? I think it would be a grave mistake to think this all going to be easy for ETNZ, even if they get 2 more bullets tomorrow.

In SF Oracle managed to turn a slow boat into a rocket when they were given just 1 day off racing, after tomorrows racing they've got 5.

History says the team has cheated in the past, so put into a corner would they resist the opportunity to do it again?

Illegal electronic control systems are easy to hide and very very hard to find unless you really know what you're doing, particularly as some of the potential options are at software level.

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1 hour ago, ncs said:

What I see is that P finesses the machine better under pressure than J. 

Did P really do a rabbit ear / peace sign behind J during the SG interview?

If so I owe him a hundred bucks!

Yes he did. Bless him.

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2 hours ago, Barnacle Bill said:

What a load if bulldust. The only revolution Russell and Larry have given the cup is a socialist one. OD and petty rules, gag orders and getting the little bitches to sign an agreement that's worthless. 

That's not the AC. That's ego. 

Who put the AC on foils? Who had the balls to go foiling first on a 72 foot cat? That's right, TEAM NEW ZEALAND! 

There's been plenty of 'cracker contests' in the AC. Because you're a child, you don't remember. 

You're a stupid cunt. 

Barney , potty mouth = shit for brains.

Get back on your rock .

Ego is and has always been a major part of the Cup.

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57 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

I think both boats ran out of hydraulic pressure today and fell dramatically off the foils, after short prior windups from the previous manoeuvre. ETNZ was able to quickly regenerate enough pressure quickly and get foiling again. OR took forever.

Pete was waiting for cyclors to run round the front of the wing (3 I think) before GA got tired of steering and called him round the back of the wing. No confusion about finishing. They just had shitty last angles to bottom gate and finish.Some argument amongst after guard about poor VMG foiling vs going displacement upwind with PB wanting to keep foiling even when going straight across the course. Fascinating.  

oracle certainly took ages to recover. 

 

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Definitely NOT due to loss of wind as the boats were less than 50m apart.

Interestingly Orifice seems to veer left momentarily just before executing the gybe. Perhaps this was due to not being able to get foil fully down in time because immediately after that they just bath it.

It came after they fell off the foils but as I said elsewhere, check out their jib as they gybe and for a second or two after - it's still on the windward side of the wing completely messing with the wind flow. In their panic did they forget it? That would have cost them 10+ knots of speed and therefore delaying them flying again for however many additional seconds.

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1 hour ago, hoom said:

Also OR bottom speed

RIbKoML.png

yes, but ETNZ were about the same speed and the bottom of first race after their stuff up. 

 

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Day's Stats:

Race one (NZ won by 30s)
Upwind speed: NZ 20.98 knots, US 18.54kn
Downwind speed: NZ 24.13kn, US 24.78kn
Average speed: 22.61kn, US 21.49kn
Maximum speed: NZ 32.21kn, US 31.61kn
Distance sailed: NZ 14,627m, US 14,245m
Tacks: NZ 7, US 6
Gybes: NZ 7, US 8

 

Race two (NZ won by 1m 28s)
Upwind speed: NZ 20.30 kn, US 20.03kn
Downwind speed: NZ 26.69kn, US 22.50kn
Average speed: NZ 23.21kn, US 21.32kn
Maximum speed: NZ 32.77kn, US 30.15kn
Distance sailed: NZ 15,452m, US 15,160m
Tacks: NZ 10, US 8
Gybes: NZ 6, US 8

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11878765

 

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What happened to ETNZ in Leg5/Race 2 where they dropped right down to 10knts? Did they sail into a hole or did they have some "issues"?

R2L5.thumb.JPG.d04120aa013c493b4708aeb4bac850e1.JPG

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19 minutes ago, bob202 said:

It came after they fell off the foils but as I said elsewhere, check out their jib as they gybe and for a second or two after - it's still on the windward side of the wing completely messing with the wind flow. In their panic did they forget it? That would have cost them 10+ knots of speed and therefore delaying them flying again for however many additional seconds.

http://www.sailingworld.com/americas-cup-even-score

This has probably been cited already but I found it the best insight I have seen explaining in detail how these boats work. Power is everything it seems 

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4 hours ago, ro! said:

Karma's a bitch and you guys are starting to piss her off...

Yes, six to go and OR have more than a day following tomorrow's racing to make improvements.

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Boy, Is this young man stepping up to the plate, or what? He seems to be fitting right into those "Best sailor in the world" shoes.

As Burling said in the opening press conference, "It’s not the first win that matters, but the last".

Then photobombing, Spithill. Wow. Hope jimmy gets some sleep tonight. He looked as if he could have done with an afternoon nap after today's racing.

170616_ac35_gmr_6497.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Nutta said:

Yes, six to go and OR have more than a day following tomorrow's racing to make improvements.

LOL make improvements then what was all that testing with jpn about, all they can now hope for is stronger winds where I still think ETNZ will be competitive.  

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3 hours ago, E63sccb said:

And where is the clip for the orifice...after all they are the cheaters. I hope Dalts can have RC and LE's balls roasted with some fava beans for dinner..

He strikes me as a bigger eater than that. Don't want the man to starve...

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2 minutes ago, DevsNzL said:

LOL make improvements then what was all that testing with jpn about, all they can now hope for is stronger winds where I still think ETNZ will be competitive.  

Unless they put bikes in they're fucked 

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2 hours ago, ncs said:

What I see is that P finesses the machine better under pressure than J. 

Did P really do a rabbit ear / peace sign behind J during the SG interview?

If so I owe him a hundred bucks!

Get your wallet out. 8)

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America’s Cup: Kiwis are better, faster

Published on June 17th, 2017

We learned Peter Burling’s Emirates Team New Zealand were not fazed by the narrative which had depicted Spithill as the superior starter, as the kiwis were 2-0 off the start line. We also learned, or confirmed, the kiwi team is crazy fast in the 8 knot winds seen today.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2017/06/17/americas-cup-kiwis-better-faster-day-one/

 

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3 hours ago, InnerVoid said:

Now this.. this is just too cool.
 

if only we could get full race video 360's and be able to switch boats.

Hydraulic power is king, notice how they pump that wing, well above the centerline.  

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1 minute ago, Bill E Goat said:

Hydraulic power is king, notice how they pump that wing, well above the centerline.  

Er no.. I was just more thrilled at being able to sit on the boat :)

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5 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

Fuck off. Im trying to drink it all myself. Grows over the back fence. 

Haha ... great idea. 

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1 hour ago, Woolfy said:

...

History says the team has cheated in the past, so put into a corner would they resist the opportunity to do it again?

Illegal electronic control systems are easy to hide and very very hard to find unless you really know what you're doing, particularly as some of the potential options are at software level.

I think the opportunities for OR-XEROX to cheat with control systems are severely limited, with the Class Rule tightening up on what's allowed and what's not. "Creative" software manipulation of the control systems are possible, but will still be severely restricted by the available power to drive the hydraulic system to deliver the hydraulic oil flow at the required volume and pressure to drive the actuators at the ideal design speeds. They can have the most smart powerful control management system, but they will still be handicapped by the hydraulic system deficiencies.

This is where ETNZ's cyclors are the game-changer. I believe the ETNZ design team sat down early in the piece and worked out the optimum hydraulic fluid/pressure requirements at the specific actuators, added 40% contingent capacity, and then settled on the primary power to drive the hydraulic system. Once this was confirmed, they would have worked on their control management system...

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30 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

http://www.sailingworld.com/americas-cup-even-score

This has probably been cited already but I found it the best insight I have seen explaining in detail how these boats work. Power is everything it seems 

Yeah that is a really interesting read, it really shows that the ETNZ have just pushed the boundaries on abolutely everything!

Hopefully all that fancy kit is reliable enough to get the job done!

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7 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Yeah that is a really interesting read, it really shows that the ETNZ have just pushed the boundaries on abolutely everything!

Hopefully all that fancy kit is reliable enough to get the job done!

Really good read.

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14 minutes ago, Indio said:

I think the opportunities for OR-XEROX to cheat with control systems are severely limited, with the Class Rule tightening up on what's allowed and what's not. "Creative" software manipulation of the control systems are possible, but will still be severely restricted by the available power to drive the hydraulic system to deliver the hydraulic oil flow at the required volume and pressure to drive the actuators at the ideal design speeds. They can have the most smart powerful control management system, but they will still be handicapped by the hydraulic system deficiencies.

This is where ETNZ's cyclors are the game-changer. I believe the ETNZ design team sat down early in the piece and worked out the optimum hydraulic fluid/pressure requirements at the specific actuators, added 40% contingent capacity, and then settled on the primary power to drive the hydraulic system. Once this was confirmed, they would have worked on their control management system...

 Yeah, that's plausible. 

But then there's this curious little matter published here last week:

pressreader_article.thumb.jpg.be2725bd3b1d66f2db4c4be22f629fe4.jpg

 

 

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3 minutes ago, ncs said:

 Yeah, that's plausible. 

But then there's this curious little matter published here last week:

pressreader_article.thumb.jpg.be2725bd3b1d66f2db4c4be22f629fe4.jpg

 

 

They (MC) didn't seem to be doing anything but tire kicking checking ETNZ out today post race. 

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The dude had just gone home for the weekend. Relax everybody. 

The big show had started, just sit back and enjoy. 

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

What happened to ETNZ in Leg5/Race 2 where they dropped right down to 10knts? Did they sail into a hole or did they have some "issues"?

R2L5.thumb.JPG.d04120aa013c493b4708aeb4bac850e1.JPG

I watched that leg again just listening to the on board audio but couldn't hear anything that indicated an issue, I think they sailed into a big hole.

What was interesting was the adios after they nearly blew it at mark 6, once they were up and foiling again someone asked "what happened there" and PB said something about the finish and then "don't talk about it now".

Either it was all about getting to the finish line and then discussing it, or it was about getting off the audio feed. 

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15 minutes ago, ncs said:

 Yeah, that's plausible. 

But then there's this curious little matter published here last week:

 

 

 

Thanks for that. Is that the same Wayne Medetsky of Kinetic Scientific? It is a concern that the MC do not have specialists to check for compliance on electronics and control systems. The MC seem to rely too much on declarations of compliance self-checking by the teams - and we know one of them is a convicted cheater.

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18 minutes ago, Mudz said:

The dude had just gone home for the weekend. Relax everybody. 

The big show had started, just sit back and enjoy. 

Thought you were busy with the Lions tour?

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Just now, Offshore 1 said:

Thought you were busy with the Lions tour?

Lions are boring as batshit. Does anyone think they'll get close to scoring a try against the AB's?

What team are you backing these days -have you picked a side yet?

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52 minutes ago, Indio said:

I think the opportunities for OR-XEROX to cheat with control systems are severely limited, with the Class Rule tightening up on what's allowed and what's not. "Creative" software manipulation of the control systems are possible, but will still be severely restricted by the available power to drive the hydraulic system to deliver the hydraulic oil flow at the required volume and pressure to drive the actuators at the ideal design speeds. They can have the most smart powerful control management system, but they will still be handicapped by the hydraulic system deficiencies.

This is where ETNZ's cyclors are the game-changer. I believe the ETNZ design team sat down early in the piece and worked out the optimum hydraulic fluid/pressure requirements at the specific actuators, added 40% contingent capacity, and then settled on the primary power to drive the hydraulic system. Once this was confirmed, they would have worked on their control management system...

^this

with the design window closing down on the OD spec, there's not any room for game changers. OR wrote the OD so as to preclude surprises, but wrote themselves into a corner that's quickly decreasing in size.

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36 minutes ago, ncs said:

 Yeah, that's plausible. 

But then there's this curious little matter published here last week:

pressreader_article.thumb.jpg.be2725bd3b1d66f2db4c4be22f629fe4.jpg

 

 

not resigned, just left.

good humour

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12 minutes ago, Mudz said:

Lions are boring as batshit. Does anyone think they'll get close to scoring a try against the AB's?

What team are you backing these days -have you picked a side yet?

Easy tiger. Anyway who would be stupid enough to support the Wallabies...

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3 hours ago, PabloAU said:

So I take it the anger management classes are not working for you?.......  I really dont care about your "love in" with Gladwell - I've known him for over 20 years, we dont see eye to eye on a lot of things, especially racing,  my opinion & yeah stud, this is Anarchy......

Wow, so you have mates? Who knew? and Aussies as well??? WOW - How special & I am very happy for you....... so in short (as I feel you may be vertically challenged anyway) Harden the fuck up Princess, 

So apart from your pathetic attempts at the English language and disdain for the sheila you've got it in for Gladwell.  And only for the last 20 years.  That makes you a newbie, Bruce. Tells us a lot.

To repeat,  fuck off Ocker!  

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It occurred to me about the differences with ac34.   Oracle last time had their program interupted by they capsize.   And could be argued were pressed for time as a result.  It cannot be argued that they were wanting for preparation this time.  Surely they have much less left in the tank having maxed out their program.  

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1 hour ago, kenergy said:

I watched that leg again just listening to the on board audio but couldn't hear anything that indicated an issue, I think they sailed into a big hole.

What was interesting was the adios after they nearly blew it at mark 6, once they were up and foiling again someone asked "what happened there" and PB said something about the finish and then "don't talk about it now".

Either it was all about getting to the finish line and then discussing it, or it was about getting off the audio feed. 

I definitely heard someone (Ashby?) complain about "the cam" (again) so I think it was wing related.

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52 minutes ago, Offshore 1 said:

Easy tiger. Anyway who would be stupid enough to support the Wallabies...

Jeeezus. Aren't they pathetic? I bet they'd get thrashed by the Brave Blossoms at the moment.

No disrespect to the Japanese intended.

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46 minutes ago, Qman said:

It occurred to me about the differences with ac34.   Oracle last time had their program interupted by they capsize.   And could be argued were pressed for time as a result.  It cannot be argued that they were wanting for preparation this time.  Surely they have much less left in the tank having maxed out their program.  

It is significant that ETNZ are the only team with the Batwing Whomper design. Nothing else looks even close.

But is it really foils, or is it enough oil to trim 'em to relative perfection?

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9 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

It is significant that ETNZ are the only team with the Batwing Whomper design. Nothing else looks even close.

But is it really foils, or is it enough oil to trim 'em to relative perfection?

I think it is actually many things, and the combination of those things.

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Quote

But is it really foils, or is it enough oil to trim 'em to relative perfection?

Both & more.

Edit: ninja'd

 

Quote

In SF Oracle managed to turn a slow boat into a rocket when they were given just 1 day off racing

Thing is it wasn't really a slow boat, OR had spurts of really good speed in the early races but just weren't able to sustain/made boo boos.

 

Quote

yes, but ETNZ were about the same speed and the bottom of first race after their stuff up. 

Sure, but then OR were like 500m behind & ETNZ were able to quickly accelerate away.

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2 hours ago, ncs said:

 Yeah, that's plausible. 

But then there's this curious little matter published here last week:

pressreader_article.thumb.jpg.be2725bd3b1d66f2db4c4be22f629fe4.jpg

 

 

Interesting.... and just who is the "electronics guru from New Zealand"? Do we know him/her because I'd thought if they were as described one or both of us would.

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2 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

Interesting.... and just who is the "electronics guru from New Zealand"? Do we know him/her because I'd thought if they were as described one or both of us would.

Kim Dotcom?

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4 hours ago, Qman said:

oracle certainly took ages to recover. 

 

Here they are stopping for a picnic...

5946584f013c8_OR-XEROXPicnic.thumb.JPG.7524dfd328111c450e01b8d945f87f56.JPG

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

I think the opportunities for OR-XEROX to cheat with control systems are severely limited, with the Class Rule tightening up on what's allowed and what's not. "Creative" software manipulation of the control systems are possible, but will still be severely restricted by the available power to drive the hydraulic system to deliver the hydraulic oil flow at the required volume and pressure to drive the actuators at the ideal design speeds. They can have the most smart powerful control management system, but they will still be handicapped by the hydraulic system deficiencies.

This is where ETNZ's cyclors are the game-changer. I believe the ETNZ design team sat down early in the piece and worked out the optimum hydraulic fluid/pressure requirements at the specific actuators, added 40% contingent capacity, and then settled on the primary power to drive the hydraulic system. Once this was confirmed, they would have worked on their control management system...

There's a big difference between " severely limited" and impossible. In addition to this a lot of the (illegal) sensing hardware available could be easily concealed from or passed off as something else to a non electronic savvy measurer. A smart control management should actually use less hydraulic power as all movements are the minimum (low drag) amount required, the what we now look at as crude manual systems that were what should have been used in SF could easily use a great deal more power as it was all too easy to overtrim the foil requiring further power to correct this.

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:lol: love it!

 

The thought of Kim Dotcom trying get inside those hulls to check for dodgy sensors....

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4 hours ago, minimumfuss said:

http://www.sailingworld.com/americas-cup-even-score

This has probably been cited already but I found it the best insight I have seen explaining in detail how these boats work. Power is everything it seems 

Power and flight control. 

Could a system like the one ETNZ apparently have be replicated and improved on within a week?

"The way they may have gone around this is by using an iPad that’s showing the best place to put the foils to fly the boat. So basically there’s a human input, but you’re copying what the computer is telling you to do. It sounds like it’s telling them what to do. If it’s doing what we think it is, it’s actually a really cool development that could trickle down and be used on some of the modern foiling cats where it could essentially fly the boat for you."

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8 hours ago, Indio said:

Is this a post-race check by the Measurement Committee or in response to a CnC complaint by OR-Xerox??

 

 

There was a controversy (of sorts) before the beginning of the Cup that centered on OR and Team Japan sailing with slack lower sidestays - OR and JP were doing it, everyone else wasn't. The measurement committee first produced a ruling saying that they had to be tensioned (at least to hand tension), then a few days later they said "nevermind." ("it is permitted for some rigging elements to be left slack and the amount of slack is not regulated."). Its interesting to see that here we can see ETNZ is also now configured with slack lowers (and ETNZ's crew are fiddling around with it as if it was a focus of attention). 

Some folks think that it might permit for more wracking of the platform (allowing the bows to have different trim states), and I think you can see that in some of the race footage, where the windward bow seems to be trimmed further down compared to the leeward hull (which in turn could give some extra righting moment). In any case, everyone seems to be doing that now, whether or not it gives a real advantage on the course or not.

http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Americas-Cup---Re-interpreting-the-Interpretation/154686?source=google

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, mrdobalina said:

Could a system like the one ETNZ apparently have be replicated and improved on within a week?

This is what is in an iPad, but I think Android do a similar thing with Qualcomm

The Apple M7 (codename Oscar), M8, M9, and M10 are motion coprocessorsused by Apple Inc. in their mobile devices. Their function is to collect sensor data from integrated accelerometers, gyroscopes and compasses and offload the collecting and processing of sensor data from the main central processing unit (CPU).

These things are pretty cool, the most obvious way to see them is to download a free "Spirit Level" app, but I believe things like seqways, and the very cool OGO Wheelchair built in NZ of course would also rely on this stuff.

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7 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

A smart control management should actually use less hydraulic power as all movements are the minimum (low drag) amount required....

If a daggerboard hydraulic cylinder requires 4000kg to drive it, no amount of smart control system will reduce the hydraulic flow @ the required pressure to deliver the 4000-kg needed. OR-XEROX are short of the optimum hydraulic power they need - why else would they install the bmx?? I think they've had to compromise some system performances because of their hydraulic deficiencies.

At this late stage, I think the only potential area where they may be tempted to stretch the Class Rule would be in hardware - daggerboards and rudders. I don't think they'd want to upgrade their hydraulic capabilities this late, although if ETNZ goes 3-zip tomorrow, OR-XEROX may put the 5 days to "productive development".

 

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9 minutes ago, Indio said:

If a daggerboard hydraulic cylinder requires 4000kg to drive it, no amount of smart control system will reduce the hydraulic flow @ the required pressure to deliver the 4000-kg needed. OR-XEROX are short of the optimum hydraulic power they need - why else would they install the bmx?? I think they've had to compromise some system performances because of their hydraulic deficiencies.

At this late stage, I think the only potential area where they may be tempted to stretch the Class Rule would be in hardware - daggerboards and rudders. I don't think they'd want to upgrade their hydraulic capabilities this late, although if ETNZ goes 3-zip tomorrow, OR-XEROX may put the 5 days to "productive development".

 

Funnily enough, I don't think ORs hydraulics are designed nor maintained by anyone with the same level of expertise as the company that backs the Kiwis. Which is kinda weird considering the overall budget for their defence.

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1 minute ago, Flags said:

Funnily enough, I don't think ORs hydraulics are designed nor maintained by anyone with the same level of expertise as the company that backs the Kiwis. Which is kinda weird considering the overall budget for there defence.

Spinbot keeps regaling us with wonderous tales of the high-tech hydraulic motion and control capabilities of Parker Hannifin extended to OR-XEROX. And the equally impressive hydraulic control systems used by Airbus :lol:

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Hydraulics might be a bit of a weakness for Oracle, but looking at the 1st reach in race 2 sailing the same course in same wind at well below cavitation speeds (below 30kts) ETNZ was holding 1.5kts of speed advantage.

In this range ETNZ were about 5% faster than Oracle.  Ultimate reaching speed is a very good indicator of overall propulsive force/total drag (eg around 4 for ETNZ vs 3.8 for Oracle) multiplied by wind speed.  That is mostly about lower drag given near identical righting moment, likely due to ETNZ daggerboards and perhaps a small contribution from the lower crew windage.  Oracle can't hope to overcome that large a deficit at this late stage, and in these lighter winds it means that ETNZ can always sail at a fraction of a degree smaller apparent wind angle up or downwind at same boatspeed, with big resulting (around 5%) VMG advantage as we have seen.

The advantage will diminish as get closer to onset of cavitation (high 30's), where smaller foils become optimal, but Oracle can't hope to overcome that big a performance deficit to win races in the light, and unless there is a lot stronger wind for coming races they will lose the cup.

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10-12 knots today if Kiwis win again via speed we confirm what we already think in terms of them having a speed advantage. 

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Quote

The thought of Kim Dotcom trying get inside those hulls to check for dodgy sensors....

^_^:ph34r:

 

Quote

Its interesting to see that here we can see ETNZ is also now configured with slack lowers (and ETNZ's crew are fiddling around with it as if it was a focus of attention).

Yes I meant to post on that before, I guess if everyone is happy to have them slack so be it, maybe thats why MC changed their mind? ie they asked OR & ETNZ, both were pro-slack -> re-issue.

 

Quote

*BBDDC voice* why else would they install the bmx?? *BBDDC voice*

FIFY ;)

Seriously I can't see how it possibly pays for its weight, he takes power off the main grinder for a long time, then only pedals for a few secs downwind.

I was surprised to see it still there post-mods, expect to see it gone before the end.

Unless there is some nefarious oil-as-ballast shenanigans going on associated with it?

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25 minutes ago, Indio said:

Spinbot keeps regaling us with wonderous tales of the high-tech hydraulic motion and control capabilities of Parker Hannifin extended to OR-XEROX. And the equally impressive hydraulic control systems used by Airbus :lol:

I reckon this guy

JOHN HILDEBRAND

Hydraulics and Winches Systems Engineer

JH.jpg.af536a4a8c600d75471a7609cbd9a026.jpg

Is this guy

Consider the loads
John Hildebrand, who in partnership with Andrew Henderson in Darkhorse Yachting provides specialist engineering and rigging services to grand prix racer customers including Bob and Sandy Oatley for their Wild Oats program, is an engineer who runs his own load-testing programs.
“Our main aim is to increase performance of boats across the board; plan deck hardware systems, optimise and simplify.
“We have our own test beds and do a lot of load testing, so we get our heads around loads a lot closer than what generally gets specified on boats. A lot of stuff gets way too heavy and we try to simplify, make it small, suitable to the application and use good new technical materials.”

doesn't appear to be from Parker Hannifin, and trusting airbus hydraulics hmmmmm not so sure about that :)

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7 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Boy. That's one you don't hear everyday. Showing your age there, starr.

We are all getting a bit older aren't we. Been too long my friend. Off to Bermuda Thursday hope their is a contest when we get there. 

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53 minutes ago, Flags said:

Funnily enough, I don't think ORs hydraulics are designed nor maintained by anyone with the same level of expertise as the company that backs the Kiwis. Which is kinda weird considering the overall budget for their defence.

 

That company being?

 

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Is being race- hardened an issue? 

In the last 4 years Jimmy has raced in the ACWS (winning none) and done some practice racing in the AC 50s. What else has he done? 

Pete has sailed in maybe 600 - 1000 races that mattered to him, A class, Moth, Won 28 49er regattas and won Olympic Gold by the largest winning margin in any Olympic sailing class for 50 years. 

Hardly a surprise that Pete is more match- hardened despite his relative lack of match racing / AC50 practice racing.

 

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3 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I definitely heard someone (Ashby?) complain about "the cam" (again) so I think it was wing related.

In the Blair Tuke interview (with Tasker?) he admitted they had onboard issues on the final upwind

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Pearl island weather maybe 1 knot higher than yesterday at present  

Cool kiwi flag setup at south road junction yesterday. By taskers/lesters camera man I think. Top effort. Huge kiwi support

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I don’t think it will matter what is planned if Team Oracle losses they would prefer to have DOG challenge, which they are 1-0 on opposite to a LVC challenge which they are 0-2 on.  Larry has never won a LVC and has an eye for spectacle. ETNZ should be preparing lawyers and a monster design.

I think they should make a 12m Cat Class. Marry the spirit of the old 12m class and foiling cats but put more classical boat handling and controls back into the hands of more sailors.

 

12m Cat (2 boat max)

soft sails (unlimited builds, but limited certs)

foils but no hydraulics (unlimited builds, but limited certs)

no electronics not even a GPS watch. (Swiss/Japanese watch makers will be happy.)

Strong citizenship clause

 

I am from the US and I hope ETNZ WINS!

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Good omen for New Zealand, 2 Kiwis Earl Bamber and Brendan Hartley with Timo Bernhard win Le Mans 24 hours for Porsche. 

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Arrrgh, the Corvette banged tires with the Aston and then got a flat on the last lap, losing the race.

Well there are still the Kiwis looking good on the first day, too early to make any conclusions yet but hope they keep it up. Most of my friends at the club yesterday were bummed for OR and perplexed by my support for ETNZ. Little do most of them know...

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VERY early days yet. 

Some people seem to have short memories. Better to take it a day at a time, tho today may give us the start of a trend ... 

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3 hours ago, Woolfy said:

Interesting.... and just who is the "electronics guru from New Zealand"? Do we know him/her because I'd thought if they were as described one or both of us would.

This 'electronics guru' is David Minor. 

 

 

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What's the name of the guy who wrote the software for Luna Rossa and the auto-foiling system before going to Oracle?

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apparently the squadron had 600 people for the first races yesterday. Anyone here go along? Sounds like a great way to start your day. 

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3 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Arrrgh, the Corvette banged tires with the Aston and then got a flat on the last lap, losing the race.

Well there are still the Kiwis looking good on the first day, too early to make any conclusions yet but hope they keep it up. Most of my friends at the club yesterday were bummed for OR and perplexed by my support for ETNZ. Little do most of them know...

 

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