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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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2 hours ago, aucklander said:

My evidence of OR having a power issue is they've installed a laughable aftermarket heath-robinson cycle station on the back of their boat.

If that's not evidence, I don't know what is.  I have to admit when i saw it i thought it was a hoax it was so bad, but no, they are so desperate for hydro they ran with it.

brilliant :

 Heath-robinson  image of what  Jimmy  has  been   sailing, 

and what he's dreaming  of ~

917-201473195935_540x360.jpg

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1 minute ago, southseasbill said:

Wonder if Jimmy's job is on the line? Under the rules they can't bring in Sir Ben or NO.

Been saying that for 24 hours or more - This from a FB source yesterday. The outline is mine. Is this an editorial slip or a deliberate ploy to bring the story out in the open?

New OTUSA skipper.PNG

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**Interview with Peter Burling** - today I didn't get a chance to chat to James Spithill, he was rushed off to an ORACLE TEAM USA complete team meeting. I did get to talk to Pete, and we went over today's racing, what we can expect next weekend, and we also spoke about the now famous photobomb from yesterday as well 1f609.png;)
For me, this is where it gets interesting; OTUSA have had to admit they are not fast, and they will be working 24/7 over the next few days to catch up. Emirates Team New Zealand on the other hand will be doing what they can to stay ahead... So it all begins again on Saturday, except that ETNZ are 3-0. Good luck to all over this week. 
Tomorrow, we head out to watch the J Class! Nic 1f642.png:)

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Said this in the enemy thread, but I don't think anymore there is much if any difference in BS as designed ...looking at pre-starts and transitions it seems collectively the 3 guys at the back of ENZ are simply a step above their counterparts. That is something which is pretty hard for OR to do anything about in 5 weeks let alone 5 days.

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Ashby is working a tablet for wing trim, correct?
Does the tablet include camera views of teltales on the leeward side of the wing, what 20 meter high?

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Just watching race with sky alternative commentary -just boat comms- at 0.07 after mark 2 in race 1 you can hear and see the collision on the rudder with an associated 'fark'.

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I've spent years explaining to punters that ETNZ lost the last cup match from a seemingly impregnable lead because Oracle got their boat going lightning quick upwind. Any sailor knows that boats that are quicker uphill - with the ability to mode high, low and plain VMG - are very difficult to race against.

To call it a "choke" was missing the point. There was no Ben Ainslie crew switch or tactical genius that lead to the Oracle comeback in SF. Oracle got their boat foiling uphill - they were 2-3 knots quicker at times. It overwhelmed ETNZ and they didn't react well under the pressure.

ETNZ will have sat down in their first meeting and the sailing team will have told the designers, "make sure our boat is dominant upwind - everything else comes 2nd". They got what they asked for - they have even openly conceded that they've traded reaching and downhill speed to have the upwind weapon they wanted (during the Artemis series they stated they just wanted to be in touch at the first gate). I'm convinced ETNZ have rocked up with the boat that would have saved their arses in the last Match. It makes it surprising that Oracle didn't recognise what strengths won it for them in that event.

Oracle need to refine three areas:

a) Reaching speed - Artemis gave themselves a fighting chance by prioritising reaching speed. This meant that Artemis recovered from starts where they were even or behind to lead at mark 1. ETNZ were only performing poorly at the start if you measure the start by who gets to the first rounding mark ahead. They were often even or slightly ahead at the start line. Being superior in the reach forced ETNZ to pass to win - which is much harder than stretching out to 500m leads (duh).

b) Downwind speed - This would be the most marginal of gains, but, several times ETNZ has rolled competitors by gauging down on them - both from windward and leeward positions. Assessing where this downwind VMG comes from and how to re-mode so you can match would be useful. This would offer less benefit than looking closer at upwind modes however. This isn't a straight-line speed issue, it's about having the option to soak down - if Oracle set up slightly ahead and to leeward they will take this mode away from ETNZ - but they've never had the opportunity - so ETNZ stretch quickly after the first Gybe of leg 2 every time.

c) Upwind speed - Speed isn't the problem, it's actually height - they show the relative speeds and sometimes it's not dramatic - but when you can see one boat gauging up off the other with your naked eye, in real time, you know there's a major issue for one of them. In the round robin ETNZ were shown up by Artemis who seemed to mode their boat better in 12-15 knots and were sailing much freer and faster. They stayed out with the coaches - seemed to iron it out and came back the next day being much quicker. This illustrates that the claims "the learning curve is steep" are not hollow and significant gains can be made. Oracle (unfortunately for them) seemed to have smoked way a bit of time not coming to grips with the VMG disparity, explaining it away with shifts and pressure. Plain and simple this is where the cup will be won and lost now.

ETNZ HAVE TO to improve themselves in four key areas:

a) Dropping off the foils - they've basically stopped dead in the water in almost every race in the finals, including a sphincter-tightening effort during the pre-start of the last race (that ended up being tactical genius - but let's be honest it was ordinary). They need to iron out the timing because eventually they're going to get nailed for this.

b) Head out of the boat - I'm not a subscriber to the "you need a dedicated tactician" camp - but when the Easterly course is set and the breeze is up and down they shouldn't be out of phase, sailing into holes and generally making life hard for themselves. It's easier when the breeze comes up a few knots, but when they're sailing in the breeze which they are most dominant in they are deficient tactically - mitigating the advantage a bit.

c) Reaching speed - if, all being equal, they find themselves in a position where they are being dominated down the reach and struggling to pass, they may need a plan B to turbo the boat for improved reaching performance. Artemis tried and failed with that strategy, but it doesn't mean Oracle can't make it stick.

d) Speed out of regulation tacks and gybes - they are slower out of tacks and marginally worse in gybes than Oracle. They look good in a straight build (off the start, recovering from f**-ups, etc.), but they're just a click off at times. Any greater consistency in this respect would be helpful.

Some of the answers to Oracle's moding issues may be provided by the Artemis team, who made some big strides in a short time during the finals. I don't know how disposed they will be to providing assistance or feedback.

None of the answers for Oracles issues will come from STJ - who had zero answer to the speed of Artemis and ETNZ (except in 25kts+ survival conditions).

 

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19 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

Wonder if Jimmy's job is on the line? Under the rules they can't bring in Sir Ben or NO.

This isn't a problem with the helm though is it. Apart from a duff start in race 1, the helm work has been basically fine. He's just sailing a slower boat. Maybe you can sheet home some responsibility to him in his skipper capacity, but not as a helm.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

The last rounding on race 2 shows they likely had hydro issues... Not the falling off the foils - that was just the beginning of it - but the fact they didn't (couldn't?) get their jib through which was probably the highest impact issue which prevented them getting foiling again quickly. It seems that could be power related according to the Artemis' article on hydro the other day.

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1 minute ago, ianz said:

This isn't a problem with the helm though is it. Apart from a duff start in race 1, the helm work has been basically fine. He's just sailing a slower boat. Maybe you can sheet home some responsibility to him in his skipper capacity, but not as a helm.

That said, there was a telling moment in the day 1 press conference (I mean the one after races 1 and 2).

When PB was asked what was better about ETNZ's day than JS's reply that they were 'only one down', PB said, 'well, that we are one up I guess'. Cut to JS, laughing, wry expression on his face. There was the look of a man who knew exactly how PB felt having been there himself, and who knows he's done his dash.

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5 minutes ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

 

d) Speed out of regulation tacks and gybes - they are slower out of tacks and marginally worse in gybes than Oracle. They look good in a straight build (off the start, recovering from f**-ups, etc.), but they're just a click off at times. Any greater consistency in this respect would be helpful.

Some of the answers to Oracle's moding issues may be provided by the Artemis team, who made some big strides in a short time during the finals. I don't know how disposed they will be to providing assistance or feedback.

None of the answers for Oracles issues will come from STJ - who had zero answer to the speed of Artemis and ETNZ (except in 25kts+ survival conditions).

 

I've not noticed a problem with ETNZ in tacks and gybes.

They seem to bottom out a knot or two higher in each.

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Just now, jaysper said:

I've not noticed a problem with ETNZ in tacks and gybes.

They seem to bottom out a knot or two higher in each.

agree, Oracle definitely falls off foils during tacks more in the downwind range.

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7 minutes ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

I've spent years explaining to punters that ETNZ lost the last cup match from a seemingly impregnable lead because Oracle got their boat going lightning quick upwind. Any sailor knows that boats that are quicker uphill - with the ability to mode high, low and plain VMG - are very difficult to race against.

To call it a "choke" was missing the point. There was no Ben Ainslie crew switch or tactical genius that lead to the Oracle comeback in SF. Oracle got their boat foiling uphill - they were 2-3 knots quicker at times. It overwhelmed ETNZ and they didn't react well under the pressure.

ETNZ will have sat down in their first meeting and the sailing team will have told the designers, "make sure our boat is dominant upwind - everything else comes 2nd". They got what they asked for - they have even openly conceded that they've traded reaching and downhill speed to have the upwind weapon they wanted (during the Artemis series they stated they just wanted to be in touch at the first gate). I'm convinced ETNZ have rocked up with the boat that would have saved their arses in the last Match. It makes it surprising that Oracle didn't recognise what strengths won it for them in that event.

Oracle need to refine three areas:

a) Reaching speed - Artemis gave themselves a fighting chance by prioritising reaching speed. This meant that Artemis recovered from starts where they were even or behind to lead at mark 1. ETNZ were only performing poorly at the start if you measure the start by who gets to the first rounding mark ahead. They were often even or slightly ahead at the start line. Being superior in the reach forced ETNZ to pass to win - which is much harder than stretching out to 500m leads (duh).

B) Downwind speed - This would be the most marginal of gains, but, several times ETNZ has rolled competitors by gauging down on them - both from windward and leeward positions. Assessing where this downwind VMG comes from and how to re-mode so you can match would be useful. This would offer less benefit than looking closer at upwind modes however. This isn't a straight-line speed issue, it's about having the option to soak down - if Oracle set up slightly ahead and to leeward they will take this mode away from ETNZ - but they've never had the opportunity - so ETNZ stretch quickly after the first Gybe of leg 2 every time.

c) Upwind speed - Speed isn't the problem, it's actually height - they show the relative speeds and sometimes it's not dramatic - but when you can see one boat gauging up off the other with your naked eye, in real time, you know there's a major issue for one of them. In the round robin ETNZ were shown up by Artemis who seemed to mode their boat better in 12-15 knots and were sailing much freer and faster. They stayed out with the coaches - seemed to iron it out and came back the next day being much quicker. This illustrates that the claims "the learning curve is steep" are not hollow and significant gains can be made. Oracle (unfortunately for them) seemed to have smoked way a bit of time not coming to grips with the VMG disparity, explaining it away with shifts and pressure. Plain and simple this is where the cup will be won and lost now.

ETNZ HAVE TO to improve themselves in four key areas:

a) Dropping off the foils - they've basically stopped dead in the water in almost every race in the finals, including a sphincter-tightening effort during the pre-start of the last race (that ended up being tactical genius - but let's be honest it was ordinary). They need to iron out the timing because eventually they're going to get nailed for this.

B) Head out of the boat - I'm not a subscriber to the "you need a dedicated tactician" camp - but when the Easterly course is set and the breeze is up and down they shouldn't be out of phase, sailing into holes and generally making life hard for themselves. It's easier when the breeze comes up a few knots, but when they're sailing in the breeze which they are most dominant in they are deficient tactically - mitigating the advantage a bit.

c) Reaching speed - if, all being equal, they find themselves in a position where they are being dominated down the reach and struggling to pass, they may need a plan B to turbo the boat for improved reaching performance. Artemis tried and failed with that strategy, but it doesn't mean Oracle can't make it stick.

d) Speed out of regulation tacks and gybes - they are slower out of tacks and marginally worse in gybes than Oracle. They look good in a straight build (off the start, recovering from f**-ups, etc.), but they're just a click off at times. Any greater consistency in this respect would be helpful.

Some of the answers to Oracle's moding issues may be provided by the Artemis team, who made some big strides in a short time during the finals. I don't know how disposed they will be to providing assistance or feedback.

None of the answers for Oracles issues will come from STJ - who had zero answer to the speed of Artemis and ETNZ (except in 25kts+ survival conditions).

 

not sure what you were looking at but ETNZ had consistently higher lowend speeds in tacks and gybes.   I also disagree about the upwind.  Oracle are the slower upwind, height is variable.  They are often 1-2-3 knots slower.  same or worse in height. 

 

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

I've not noticed a problem with ETNZ in tacks and gybes.

They seem to bottom out a knot or two higher in each.

Maybe I'm paranoid - Our dialled-in, top-end VMG is indisputably better, but we seem to bottom out slightly lower. 

For me I'm alone at 3am in the morning and I'm seriously sweating on this stuff with no one to console me.

 

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4 minutes ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

Maybe I'm paranoid - Our dialled-in, top-end VMG is indisputably better, but we seem to bottom out slightly lower. 

For me I'm alone at 3am in the morning and I'm seriously sweating on this stuff with no one to console me.

 

Not by my observation, opposite.  at least on average. 

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2 minutes ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

Maybe I'm paranoid - Our dialled-in, top-end VMG is indisputably better, but we seem to bottom out slightly lower. 

For me I'm alone at 3am in the morning and I'm seriously sweating on this stuff with no one to console me.

 

Bwahaaha! nah, I've been through the races again both on vid and virtual eye and etnz pretty MUCH ALWAYS bottom out a knot or two higher.

generally they are higher/faster upwind when in a similar patch of water. I haven't yet determoined the pattern downwind as sometimes they are the same speed, sometimes faster and I can't pick the reason

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11 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Great interviews @sailorgirl218

+1 No luck on that 4 from 4 though, Nic. But a great effort, as usual.

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5 minutes ago, MrTroy said:

Coutts.

Have they got a couple of spare committee boats? They'd sure as hell need 'em.

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11 minutes ago, KoW said:

Now THAT would make it interesting!

only if by interesting you mean ETNZ win by 4 legs

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56 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

Wonder if Jimmy's job is on the line? Under the rules they can't bring in Sir Ben or NO.

slingers is a way better moth helmsman

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The other thing is that, at this point in the regatta, we weren't winning by nearly as much in 2013. By this point in 2013 we only led for 100% in a single race. Most races had multiple multiple lead changes with NZ trailing most of the race. One race we lost outright.

This time they're miles ahead 100% of the time. Last time they could recover because they were 'competitive'. They're not this time.

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17 minutes ago, MrTroy said:

Coutts.

In all seriousness I don't think anyone else would be able to drive this boat other than Spithill. Even other the other AC50 helmsmen from this regatta who would be the only real option due to experience in these boats have totally different controls for theirs so this would be like driving an alien spaceship.

Tactics can't beat speed, and sadly Jimmy can't simply will the boat to go faster. This is going to be all about shore team effort over the next four days, and the crew keeping it together to make the most out of any possible gains they get.

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1 hour ago, Last Post said:

The elephant in the room is that Spitball is now an old man in an increasingly young mans game. He has had his day. Langford is not worthy to walk in the shadow of the bloke carrying Glenn Ashby's bags as a wing trimmer and he doesn't have the hydro power or the systems to do it with Gashby's finesse anyway. Whoever is controlling the foils on OR is out of his league in comparison with Blair Tuke and the splashdowns at critical moments are just plain poor at this level. I really do hope OR  find something over the next 5 days to make this thing somewhere near competitive. This is not, however, the same game as the 72s and a comeback of that proportion would seem increasingly unlikely because this is not the same ETNZ either. These guys have the full bag of skills, fire in their bellies and have so far played a masterful AC game, revealing just as much as they need to to proceed and keep their edge. There is a lot more in both tanks and yes, the gap could close over the next five days. I fear for OR, faced with a blinding speed difference that the last 3-4 years couldn't envisage, that the gap could also widen. We live in interesting times.

Hmmm Spithill is both too old for this game and 2 years YOUNGER than Glen Ashby.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Hmmm Spithill is both too old for this game and 2 years YOUNGER than Glen Ashby.

Probably his 'style' is more suited to a younger man whereas Glen has something to grow into.

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49 minutes ago, pipo said:

Has Dalton started fucking the hostesses yet?

I'm sure he will get round to it once he's finished fucking Oracle!!.

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1 minute ago, Daggerboard said:

Do you think the teams read all this stuff on SA, I guess for motivation more than anything else...??

Maybe for a laugh if anything. Does anybody actually think whats said on hear is credible?

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19 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Hmmm Spithill is both too old for this game and 2 years YOUNGER than Glen Ashby.

Point there is that Gashby ain't driving the bus.

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The foils in the shot above are the famous 'batwings', right? It seems to me, ETNZ have been using this foil design for a while now, and made us believe these were the 'trainer' boards. And yet here they are in the match cutting Oracle to bits all over the course with the trainer boards! Perhaps ETNZ were using their 'good boards' all along! If so, that is some head fake to lay down on the other teams. So annoying this thing is so hard to watch unless you have access to pay TV. I would have paid $50 bucks to be able to stream it on a tablet. Ah well. The lunatics around here keep it amusing, for sure. 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

slingers is a way better moth helmsman

Then there's this from FB yesterday

New OTUSA skipper.PNG

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On 2017-6-8 at 1:24 PM, pipo said:

Yes I have, yes I am, yes I do, and no I would not

I think applications have closed Pipo. Sorry maybe give Team France a call they could use some tips from you rather than ETNZ

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3 hours ago, jaysper said:

Hmmm, THAT gybe in race 2 of day 1 was either due to bad handling or low oil Stinger. So there is at least evidence that they MIGHT have had oil pressure issues.

Definitely can't be wind pressure as they were less than 50m apart.

J

the bad jibe in race two was some knucklehead pushing the wrong button and raising the starboard board when they were still flying on it.  Seriously, go look closely at the onboard.  They meant to push the button to lower the port board so they could fly through the tube on both foils, and pushed the wrong button under the pressure.  The starboard foils raised, the boat crashed and they didn't even begin to lower the port. Pars until they were splashed down.   Game over.

 

lask of grace under pressure.

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4 hours ago, ladymarmalade said:

Or deliberate collision

I don't think Jimmy has enough oil to manoeuvre to nail us pre-start, nor the speed to catch us post start.

And to be fair, while he's a cocky cunt, I don't think he's a kamikaze cunt.

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31 minutes ago, Daggerboard said:

Do you think the teams read all this stuff on SA, I guess for motivation more than anything else...??

Yes the teams read all the posts each night after racing. Btw Spithill is in here posting incognito.

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2 minutes ago, MrTroy said:

Yes the teams read all the posts each night after racing. Btw Spithill is in here posting incognito.

His handle is Alinghi4Ever

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1 hour ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

Maybe I'm paranoid - Our dialled-in, top-end VMG is indisputably better, but we seem to bottom out slightly lower. 

For me I'm alone at 3am in the morning and I'm seriously sweating on this stuff with no one to console me.

 

The Speed graphs that they've been showing on SKY bear witness to the fact that the Kiwi's bottom out 1-3 knots faster in the tacks and gybes ... 

Just cant find a link to those numbers .. but I'll post if I do  ... 

 

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14 minutes ago, richiec said:

The foils in the shot above are the famous 'batwings', right? It seems to me, ETNZ have been using this foil design for a while now, and made us believe these were the 'trainer' boards. And yet here they are in the match cutting Oracle to bits all over the course with the trainer boards! Perhaps ETNZ were using their 'good boards' all along! If so, that is some head fake to lay down on the other teams. So annoying this thing is so hard to watch unless you have access to pay TV. I would have paid $50 bucks to be able to stream it on a tablet. Ah well. The lunatics around here keep it amusing, for sure. 

 

 

The replays for you to watch on your tablet are in the Replay thread

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1 minute ago, ezyb said:

His handle is Alinghi4Ever

By the way, where has he gone, don't see him around here...

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41 minutes ago, Dreamwakes said:

I'm sure he will get round to it once he's finished fucking Oracle!!.

Hey newbie, haven't you learnt nothing from frisco

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5 minutes ago, jorge said:

By the way, where has he gone, don't see him around here...

Probably changed his name to etnzrocks I order to convey his long held opinion that etnz will win thecup.

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5 minutes ago, jorge said:

By the way, where has he gone, don't see him around here...

Something to do with having argued vehemently with all and sundry that ETNZ couldn't possibly have a speed advantage I imagine.

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Probably changed his name to etnzrocks I order to convey his long held opinion that etnz will win thecup.

Good one! We'll have to admit he's a true AC fan, he has cheered for every team during the competition.

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7 minutes ago, jorge said:

Hey newbie, haven't you learnt nothing from frisco

Yep, was in frisco, just under a different handle back then.

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5 minutes ago, Dreamwakes said:

Yep, was in frisco, just under a different handle back then.

Is that you A4E? 

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Did anyone notice how no-one is helming when gybing or tacking and pete is running across the boat? He even went into a gybe ran accross while the boat was turning and grabbed the helm on the new side with no one helping. Other boats have the trimmer lean back and helm while in transition.

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2 hours ago, Onehanger said:

Just watching race with sky alternative commentary -just boat comms- at 0.07 after mark 2 in race 1 you can hear and see the collision on the rudder with an associated 'fark'.

I just re-watched that after reading your post. That left (on the tv screen, right rudder on the boat) rudder shook something major - enough that even the camera shook. I wonder what it was.

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

Yeah, i guess the lack of power on ETNZ is the reason why only 3 out of 4 cyclors pedal most of the time and Blair focusing more on Daggerboardtrim than Cycling ;).

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2 hours ago, Qman said:

not sure what you were looking at but ETNZ had consistently higher lowend speeds in tacks and gybes.   I also disagree about the upwind.  Oracle are the slower upwind, height is variable.  They are often 1-2-3 knots slower.  same or worse in height. 

 

Saved me saying it. ETNZ are definitely coming out of most tacks/gybes quicker than OR. In the upwind battles you can watch the numbers dip post tack and they usually dip for longer on OR.

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13 minutes ago, Marty6 said:

Yeah, i guess the lack of power on ETNZ is the reason why only 3 out of 4 cyclors pedal most of the time and Blair focusing more on Daggerboardtrim than Cycling ;).

ETNZ have not even used all their power yet.  Several posters have noted this too.  There is plenty in the tank there if they need it. and I suspect the power can be directly translated to speed. 

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So far, so good. ETNZ is just better up wind in < 12 kts, and that makes it look easy.

We will have to see next weekend what the breeze does, and if OR is more competitive if the breeze is different.

Without the San-Fran-Trauma, I would be feeling a lot more confident calling this for ETNZ. However, then we were looking at a sport that had only existed for 6 months or so. Hoping that since the foiling programs have ran longer this time there is less scope for dramatic improvements.

 

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I wouldn't rule sabotage out of the question - submerged floating object around a particular mark or compromising the Emirates vessel in the shed?

Hope ETNZ have security and 24x7 cameras and the crew are very careful when crossing the street.

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1 hour ago, chris360 said:

Did anyone notice how no-one is helming when gybing or tacking and pete is running across the boat? He even went into a gybe ran accross while the boat was turning and grabbed the helm on the new side with no one helping. Other boats have the trimmer lean back and helm while in transition.

Yes I'd noticed once when Glen held the wheel but the rest of the time it's just drifting. One time I noticed quite a change in heading once Pete had it back under control, would have been +10 degrees as you could see it from side on.

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look at the polars over in the polar thread, ETNZ didn't have that much of a VMG advantage today on one tack, (Oracle's asymmetric boards to blame), but were much better at preserving VMG through the tacks.  If Oracle forego the assmmetry they are likely to be a lot more competitive. 

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3 minutes ago, Foyle said:

look at the polars over in the polar thread, ETNZ didn't have that much of a VMG advantage today on one tack, (Oracle's asymmetric boards to blame), but were much better at preserving VMG through the tacks.  If Oracle forego the assmmetry they are likely to be a lot more competitive. 

But they will forgo the advantages that the asymmetrical boards give them.

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19 minutes ago, Foyle said:

look at the polars over in the polar thread, ETNZ didn't have that much of a VMG advantage today on one tack, (Oracle's asymmetric boards to blame), but were much better at preserving VMG through the tacks.  If Oracle forego the assmmetry they are likely to be a lot more competitive. 

This one?? They were still 250+ metres behind

59475776b1aab_OR-XEROXR4VMG.thumb.JPG.44a93309f1c83ad86dcba62496654110.JPG

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1 hour ago, chris360 said:

Did anyone notice how no-one is helming when gybing or tacking and pete is running across the boat? He even went into a gybe ran accross while the boat was turning and grabbed the helm on the new side with no one helping. Other boats have the trimmer lean back and helm while in transition.

I think i heard somewhere that the teams are allowed to have some autopilot software to take control of the rudder for the tacks/gybes but not for the full race.

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46 minutes ago, webdeveloper said:

Yes I'd noticed once when Glen held the wheel but the rest of the time it's just drifting. One time I noticed quite a change in heading once Pete had it back under control, would have been +10 degrees as you could see it from side on.

I noticed it when tacking but GA drives during the gybes... GA does the one arm back to the wheel rather than standing behind the wheel at times

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Shit, watch this!! From today's first race, a few seconds after rounding the bottom mark for the first time. ETNZ's starboard rudder hits something and causes the whole boat to shudder, and the rudder flexes sideways. Think we may have dodged a bullet there...

I heard PB call for "someone to bring the dive gear" at the end of that race, to look at the rudder. Guess it was ok, going by there results....

480.mov

 

Sorry about the tiny clip with reduced quality - had to be under 1024kB to upload. 

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3 hours ago, richiec said:

The foils in the shot above are the famous 'batwings', right? It seems to me, ETNZ have been using this foil design for a while now, and made us believe these were the 'trainer' boards. And yet here they are in the match cutting Oracle to bits all over the course with the trainer boards! Perhaps ETNZ were using their 'good boards' all along! If so, that is some head fake to lay down on the other teams. So annoying this thing is so hard to watch unless you have access to pay TV. I would have paid $50 bucks to be able to stream it on a tablet. Ah well. The lunatics around here keep it amusing, for sure. 

 

 

No need for that; Race Replays - America's Cup Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

The videos up normally within an hour of the last race of the day finishing, shortly after that I update a post of the entire list of available races from the whole regatta from day 2, don't know what happened to day 1, we don't have that unfortunately.

Oh an don't forget to drop Rudder_NZ a thank you, he's doing a stellar job uploading the videos for us all which quite a lot of us are now helping to seed.

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14 minutes ago, Matt17 said:

Shit, watch this!! From today's first race, a few seconds after rounding the bottom mark for the first time. ETNZ's starboard rudder hits something and causes the whole boat to shudder, and the rudder flexes sideways. Think we may have dodged a bullet there...

I heard PB call for "someone to bring the dive gear" at the end of that race, to look at the rudder. Guess it was ok, going by there results....

480.mov

 

Sorry about the tiny clip with reduced quality - had to be under 1024kB to upload. 

That was a pretty big bang but both rudders seemed to shudder to me. You're right they asked for some dive gear to inspect a specific rudder.

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Cyclor hydraulic capacity has been one of the main things that have saved ETNZ's ass on several occasions

Each time they splash down eg mark rounding in Race 2 and Starting box in Race 4, they are able to get out of trouble relatively quickly compared to others.

A guy like Van Veldhoven can generate up to 1200 watts for a very short time so within 5-10 seconds they're back in business.

You can see Tuke doing less and less pumping particularly in steadier breeze.

its an absolute no brainer!

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5 hours ago, 1eyedkiwi said:

I was looking/listening for that too... but he doesn't say what kfu says - all he says is that ETNZ has made mostly sailing changes but a few boat changes too.  

@rh2600 @1eyedkiwi from 12:40 on: "still speed left in the tank", "without making substantial changes to the boat (they are sailing faster)" 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but his words seem to imply that there are still substantial changes possible,but not even required at the moment 

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4 hours ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

I've spent years explaining to punters that ETNZ lost the last cup match from a seemingly impregnable lead because Oracle got their boat going lightning quick upwind. Any sailor knows that boats that are quicker uphill - with the ability to mode high, low and plain VMG - are very difficult to race against.

To call it a "choke" was missing the point. There was no Ben Ainslie crew switch or tactical genius that lead to the Oracle comeback in SF. Oracle got their boat foiling uphill - they were 2-3 knots quicker at times. It overwhelmed ETNZ and they didn't react well under the pressure.

ETNZ will have sat down in their first meeting and the sailing team will have told the designers, "make sure our boat is dominant upwind - everything else comes 2nd". They got what they asked for - they have even openly conceded that they've traded reaching and downhill speed to have the upwind weapon they wanted (during the Artemis series they stated they just wanted to be in touch at the first gate). I'm convinced ETNZ have rocked up with the boat that would have saved their arses in the last Match. It makes it surprising that Oracle didn't recognise what strengths won it for them in that event.

Oracle need to refine three areas:

a) Reaching speed - Artemis gave themselves a fighting chance by prioritising reaching speed. This meant that Artemis recovered from starts where they were even or behind to lead at mark 1. ETNZ were only performing poorly at the start if you measure the start by who gets to the first rounding mark ahead. They were often even or slightly ahead at the start line. Being superior in the reach forced ETNZ to pass to win - which is much harder than stretching out to 500m leads (duh).

B) Downwind speed - This would be the most marginal of gains, but, several times ETNZ has rolled competitors by gauging down on them - both from windward and leeward positions. Assessing where this downwind VMG comes from and how to re-mode so you can match would be useful. This would offer less benefit than looking closer at upwind modes however. This isn't a straight-line speed issue, it's about having the option to soak down - if Oracle set up slightly ahead and to leeward they will take this mode away from ETNZ - but they've never had the opportunity - so ETNZ stretch quickly after the first Gybe of leg 2 every time.

c) Upwind speed - Speed isn't the problem, it's actually height - they show the relative speeds and sometimes it's not dramatic - but when you can see one boat gauging up off the other with your naked eye, in real time, you know there's a major issue for one of them. In the round robin ETNZ were shown up by Artemis who seemed to mode their boat better in 12-15 knots and were sailing much freer and faster. They stayed out with the coaches - seemed to iron it out and came back the next day being much quicker. This illustrates that the claims "the learning curve is steep" are not hollow and significant gains can be made. Oracle (unfortunately for them) seemed to have smoked way a bit of time not coming to grips with the VMG disparity, explaining it away with shifts and pressure. Plain and simple this is where the cup will be won and lost now.

ETNZ HAVE TO to improve themselves in four key areas:

a) Dropping off the foils - they've basically stopped dead in the water in almost every race in the finals, including a sphincter-tightening effort during the pre-start of the last race (that ended up being tactical genius - but let's be honest it was ordinary). They need to iron out the timing because eventually they're going to get nailed for this.

B) Head out of the boat - I'm not a subscriber to the "you need a dedicated tactician" camp - but when the Easterly course is set and the breeze is up and down they shouldn't be out of phase, sailing into holes and generally making life hard for themselves. It's easier when the breeze comes up a few knots, but when they're sailing in the breeze which they are most dominant in they are deficient tactically - mitigating the advantage a bit.

c) Reaching speed - if, all being equal, they find themselves in a position where they are being dominated down the reach and struggling to pass, they may need a plan B to turbo the boat for improved reaching performance. Artemis tried and failed with that strategy, but it doesn't mean Oracle can't make it stick.

d) Speed out of regulation tacks and gybes - they are slower out of tacks and marginally worse in gybes than Oracle. They look good in a straight build (off the start, recovering from f**-ups, etc.), but they're just a click off at times. Any greater consistency in this respect would be helpful.

Some of the answers to Oracle's moding issues may be provided by the Artemis team, who made some big strides in a short time during the finals. I don't know how disposed they will be to providing assistance or feedback.

None of the answers for Oracles issues will come from STJ - who had zero answer to the speed of Artemis and ETNZ (except in 25kts+ survival conditions).

 

Post of the AC cycle - NAILED it - well said mate, totaly agree 100%, can't see (Hope not to see) AR giving comfort to the defender......

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12 minutes ago, k-f-u said:

@rh2600 @1eyedkiwi from 12:40 on: "still speed left in the tank", "without making substantial changes to the boat (they are sailing faster)" 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but his words seem to imply that there are still substantial changes possible,but not even required at the moment 

Speed equals less sandbags...

 

Even now ETNZ must be holding back at say 80% after gaining substantial leads to preserve boat and cover any 'improvements' OTUSA can copy

 

Makes you wonder if ETNZ threw the round robin races to lull USA into a false sense of security

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21 minutes ago, k-f-u said:

@rh2600 @1eyedkiwi from 12:40 on: "still speed left in the tank", "without making substantial changes to the boat (they are sailing faster)" 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but his words seem to imply that there are still substantial changes possible,but not even required at the moment 

If they continue with this level of performance with more stuff left in the shed, then they may start thinking about the defence of the cup and *never* reveal it in this AC...

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8 hours ago, k-f-u said:

Encouraging to hear Lester say that they haven't brought on all the secret weapons he has knowledge of... Will be interesting to see if they even need it. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1753282381363473&id=123789437646117

I was unable to find this, I rewatched - skipped the bit with the cyclor and did not hear this during their talk about what oracle could do or etnz

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5 minutes ago, starlyte said:

I was unable to find this, I rewatched - skipped the bit with the cyclor and did not hear this during their talk about what oracle could do or etnz

As written above, the segment from 12:40 on

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3 hours ago, richiec said:

 So annoying this thing is so hard to watch unless you have access to pay TV. I would have paid $50 bucks to be able to stream it on a tablet.

 

Richiec - There are daily downloads of each race available. See the race replay thread

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18 minutes ago, Gazinit said:

 

 

Makes you wonder if ETNZ threw the round robin races to lull USA into a false sense of security

Then why show your cards now and give them 5 days to change things?

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2 hours ago, aucklander said:

ETNZ have not even used all their power yet.  Several posters have noted this too.  There is plenty in the tank there if they need it. and I suspect the power can be directly translated to speed. 

On that stalled gybe to the finish line the boat had to wait while the cyclors ground the foil down.

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On 29/03/2017 at 9:52 AM, Don said:

Amazing.

Aucklander started a thread with constrained topic very worthy of serious discussion within a very defined framework, the current AC cycle rules and the time left to actually implement.

"Extra power, what to do with it?"

It took 5 comments to take it completely outside the discussion contraints. I've seen pre-schoolers with longer attention spans.

Aucklander specifically stated "not bagging any teams" was a constraint, because it is detrimental to getting ideas, and then being able to discuss them.

Once you get some ideas about "what can be done with extra power" then you can discuss whether it is possible to carry out either one, some, all, or none of the ideas.

I understand this is an online forum called Sailing Anarchy, but this thread has great potential regardless of which team you are barracking for.

 

I believe the extra power can be used to "quiver", or rapidly pulse the wing by quite small amounts, say 5cm at the trailing edge maybe 2 to 3 times per second to increase drive.

This is what I think TNZ are holding back.

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32 minutes ago, Daggerboard said:

Then why show your cards now and give them 5 days to change things?

Well so do ETNZ, maybe we want them to fluff around with their boat while they are trying to find speed we already know where our pot of gold is maybe and haven't used it yet.

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thank you for digging my old chestnut up, it's exactly what I believe too........

Reading that thread today made me smile - team_GBRs comments are some of my favourite of this whole cycle.

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A point from the OR thread but I think better addressed here

Quote

Even the NZ location has backfired on the "hosts". It's the one base/team/boat EVERYONE can get close to.

I've been wondering about this, did that base right next to the Media Center get assigned as the booby prize or did ETNZ choose it?

They have no privacy there at all, but they also have great sponsor/fan exposure.

 

Quote

Have they got a couple of spare committee boats? They'd sure as hell need 'em.

...

Brad Butterworth in good form in the commentary box for todays races.

...

Mere coincidence? Or have ETNZ really got a big tech secret?! 

I'm gonna need a new keyboard :lol:

 

Quote

Nathan said something on the NBC feed that he thinks Pete in Jimmy's head when he held back the hook first time.

Now thats interesting :huh:

 

Quote

Somebody (hoom probably) posted the perfect shot, of the wind line/gradient slicing directly between the two boats, at that exact moment.

I reposted someone else's screen to show the divergence between your words & the visual evidence. Maybe you can yellow line it?

vlcsnap-2017-06-17-23h37m10s446.jpg

 

Quote

Speed out of regulation tacks and gybes - they are slower out of tacks and marginally worse in gybes than Oracle.

Eh? Couple of ones where ETNZ fluffed it yes but not on normal turns & fewer of them than OR.

ETNZ were consistently high/slow acceleration out of turns during the Challenger series, until it mattered.

Was clearly a sandbagging technique, they had higher bottom speeds just were agonisingly slow getting back up to speed.

 

Quote

Just watching race with sky alternative commentary -just boat comms- at 0.07 after mark 2 in race 1 you can hear and see the collision on the rudder with an associated 'fark'.

Didn't notice the collision but the call for a diver at the finish was clear, was amazed the commentators didn't pick up on it (ok not amazed, they also missed an ETNZ bad gybe where OR picked up at least 150m amongst other things *shrug*)

Was no sign of them heading back to base though & Virtualeye cut over to the new race started with them doing 37kt -> no probs.

Finish right by the base so I think they'd have had time to get in for a quick rudder change if needed.

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41 minutes ago, Daggerboard said:

Then why show your cards now and give them 5 days to change things?

Have not put all cards on proverbial 'table'...

what can they change... take out more sandbags than us?

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44 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

What do these two boats have in common

 

FB_IMG_1497852616055.jpg

FB_IMG_1497852611180.jpg

They both go on to win?

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5 hours ago, Dreamwakes said:

I'm sure he will get round to it once he's finished fucking Oracle!!.

Gold

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