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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

19,501 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Matt17 said:

Why is JS making such a mess of the starts? Doesn't appear that PB is dominating him in the box, and forcing JS to err - maybe it's psychological? Or do OR simply not have the hydro pressure to string together a series of aggressive moves to pin PB down? 

Lack of hydraulic power for the close-quarters frequent manoeuvres.

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Lets not get too carried away, remember

1. This is Oracle and they've come back from here before

2. They've got 5 days to modify the boat

3. They've got unlimited dosh

4. They are proven cheaters with questionable sportsmanship.

The fat lady isn't warming up yet - the next race is critical

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Indio said:

Lack of hydraulic power for the close-quarters frequent manoeuvres.

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

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27 minutes ago, mrdobalina said:

Another thing to consider, is that they need to make speed improvements across the wind range. This is very risky, because dramatic changes to the lower range could have a negative impact on the higher wind range and vice versa.

 

My hope/speculation is that our speed advantage is due to the following (one thing leading to another):

1.  Our cyclors can generate more hydraulic power.

2.  More hydraulic power means we can trim our wing hydraulicly.

3.  Being able to trim our wing that way means we can use the foils we currently have - i.e if you put our foils on OR they wouldn't work as well.

4.  It is a combination of the wing and foils that makes the real difference.

In other words it all comes back to the cyclors.  Without them you can't do 2 & 3.  

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23 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

My evidence of OR having a power issue is they've installed a laughable aftermarket heath-robinson cycle station on the back of their boat.

If that's not evidence, I don't know what is.  I have to admit when i saw it i thought it was a hoax it was so bad, but no, they are so desperate for hydro they ran with it.

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24 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

Hmmm, THAT gybe in race 2 of day 1 was either due to bad handling or low oil Stinger. So there is at least evidence that they MIGHT have had oil pressure issues.

Definitely can't be wind pressure as they were less than 50m apart.

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Keep repeating that silly defecation to yourself Sting/Stung and ignore reality. Orifice is performing so piss poorly that not only would Artemis trash them but so would BA too.

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Lookalikes.... 

Mere coincidence? Or have ETNZ really got a big tech secret?! 

 

IMG_20170619_103234.jpg

t1000sunglasses.jpg

 

 

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35 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

Stopping for lunch??

594703720cef9_OR-XEROXPicnic.thumb.JPG.ea2a8b960cad1e27fa79fab61f42c79c.JPG

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Like Stingray says, we haven't really seen evidence of Oracle being short on hydraulic power, unless that bad gybe in race 2 yesterday was due to lack of hydro (I'm not convinced it was)

Also despite cyclors producing more power, ETNZ's boat is more hydo-hungry due to all its systems relying on that extra cyclor power.

If these lighter conditions continue (especially when the wind direction is fairly consistent) then Oracle will struggle to improve their boat in the timeframe in my opinion - with coffee grinders they're always going to have worse windage, and their fine control of wing and foil is less refined than ETNZ's, whilst we've also seen that all their current foil configs aren't as competitive in 8-12 knots.

However I do expect them to be more competitive in fresher winds and if they can win a start (especially if they can force a penalty) ETNZ will be tested more.

It will be interesting to see which team if any can squeeze out more speed in 5 days without comprising reliability, stability or sailability. 

If ETNZ were to experience serious gear failure in race 1 on any given day that equates to 2 race losses, and the ledger could be back to 3-2 in a blink of an eye... so I'm definitely not counting chickens.

The most pleasing thing for us Emirates fans is that despite issues, they've still been winning comfortably.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, KoW said:

Like Stingray says, we haven't really seen evidence of Oracle being short on hydraulic power, unless that bad gybe in race 2 yesterday was due to lack of hydro (I'm not convinced it was)

Also despite cyclors producing more power, ETNZ's boat is more hydo-hungry due to all its systems relying on that extra cyclor power.

If these lighter conditions continue (especially when the wind direction is fairly consistent) then Oracle will struggle to improve their boat in the timeframe in my opinion - with coffee grinders they're always going to have worse windage, and their fine control of wing and foil is less refined than ETNZ's, whilst we've also seen that all their current foil configs aren't as competitive in 8-12 knots.

However I do expect them to be more competitive in fresher winds and if they can win a start (especially if they can force a penalty) ETNZ will be tested more.

It will be interesting to see which team if any can squeeze out more speed in 5 days without comprising reliability, stability or sailability. 

If ETNZ were to experience serious gear failure in race 1 on any given day that equates to 2 race losses, and the ledger could be back to 3-2 in a blink of an eye... so I'm definitely not counting chickens.

The most pleasing thing for us Emirates fans is that despite issues, they've still been winning comfortably.

 

 

I agree with all of this.

Its important to note that Japan had an ex 470 sailor grinding and could still do everything they wanted hydro wise. So it looks like their and Oracle's hydro systems are way more effective than say BAR's where the grinders were stuffed before the end of the race.

If on the other-hand OR now modified their boat to do all the things ETNZ is doing then their hydro might start falling short.

 

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I'm so glad we didn't join the dictatorship that Xerox set up.

 

What happens to the AC45 world series if we win?

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Brad Butterworth in good form in the commentary box for todays races.

"Yesterday OR looked slow and today look just as slow.".

"If they [OR] lose the next race they'll be in a massive spin, they might spin so much they'll spin off this island."

"[OR behind in race 2] Might have to get the binoculars out."

"It's gonna be tough to put the cuckoo back in the clock in OR I think."

 

 

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Just saw this in the Telegraph

"Matt Cornwell, grinder for Land Rover BAR, has just conceded that all the teams will come equipped with cycling pedestals for the next edition of the America's Cup - that is if the current rules governing the competition remain in place, of course. That's quite the turnaround considering the Kiwis pedal power was largely dismissed by the other teams as an irrelevance during testing.

"We have all seen the obvious advantages that they bring," says Cornwell. "We have some excellent cyclists in the UK and we'll be ringing them up.""

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7 minutes ago, HP2 said:

Just saw this in the Telegraph

"Matt Cornwell, grinder for Land Rover BAR, has just conceded that all the teams will come equipped with cycling pedestals for the next edition of the America's Cup - that is if the current rules governing the competition remain in place, of course. That's quite the turnaround considering the Kiwis pedal power was largely dismissed by the other teams as an irrelevance during testing.

"We have all seen the obvious advantages that they bring," says Cornwell. "We have some excellent cyclists in the UK and we'll be ringing them up.""

Yeah he said that during the race in BT's coverage... funny eh after everyone scoffed at ETNZ and said they'd all looked into it and there wasn't enough gains...

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7 minutes ago, HP2 said:

Just saw this in the Telegraph

"Matt Cornwell, grinder for Land Rover BAR, has just conceded that all the teams will come equipped with cycling pedestals for the next edition of the America's Cup - that is if the current rules governing the competition remain in place, of course. That's quite the turnaround considering the Kiwis pedal power was largely dismissed by the other teams as an irrelevance during testing.

"We have all seen the obvious advantages that they bring," says Cornwell. "We have some excellent cyclists in the UK and we'll be ringing them up.""

I think someone from ETNZ said that about 3 weeks ago.

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2 hours ago, k-f-u said:

Encouraging to hear Lester say that they haven't brought on all the secret weapons he has knowledge of... Will be interesting to see if they even need it. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1753282381363473&id=123789437646117

Sorry whereabouts in that clip? Watched it a couple of times but I keep getting distracted and can't find it...

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

OK, then, please enlighten us why Jimmy has been so circumspect in his starting manoeuvres?

Dunno exactly what Indio had in mind when he said  "Lack of hydraulic power for the close-quarters frequent manoeuvres" but I took it to mean that Jimmy was aware of his limited hydro vs the Kiwis and was thus husbanding his resources for further down the race track.

 

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Hmmm, THAT gybe in race 2 of day 1 was either due to bad handling or low oil Stinger. So there is at least evidence that they MIGHT have had oil pressure issues.

Definitely can't be wind pressure as they were less than 50m apart.

Somebody (hoom probably) posted the perfect shot, of the wind line/gradient slicing directly between the two boats, at that exact moment. ETNZ sailed into it and stayed foiling, OR lost all 'pressure' which from that overhead photo was most definitely about wind pressure and not, as some here posted, about hydro pressure. 

Check the wind statistics wrapped around those exact seconds, they show it too.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Hmmm, THAT gybe in race 2 of day 1 was either due to bad handling or low oil Stinger. So there is at least evidence that they MIGHT have had oil pressure issues.

Definitely can't be wind pressure as they were less than 50m apart.

Yep was just about to post the same point. NZ recovers more quickly from stuffing the bows in than OR does. Which is either due to NZ having more hydraulic power to get things cranking again, or a more capable boat. Unlikely to be better crew given OR's capability.

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1 minute ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Somebody (hoom probably) posted the perfect shot, of the wind line/gradient slicing directly between the two boats, at that exact moment. ETNZ sailed into it and stayed foiling, OR lost all 'pressure' which from that overhead photo was most definitely about wind pressure and not, as some here posted, hydro pressure. 

Check the statistics around those exact seconds, they show it too.

Maybe on that occasion, but NZ generally recovers quickly from being dead in the water than OR does. e.g. that tack in fro of OR at the top gate in race 2, the fluffed gybe at mark 6 in race 1, etc.

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9 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Sorry whereabouts in that clip? Watched it a couple of times but I keep getting distracted and can't find it...

I was looking/listening for that too... but he doesn't say what kfu says - all he says is that ETNZ has made mostly sailing changes but a few boat changes too.  

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1 hour ago, desprit said:

Its important to note that Japan had an ex 470 sailor grinding and could still do everything they wanted hydro wise. So it looks like their and Oracle's hydro systems are way more effective than say BAR's where the grinders were stuffed before the end of the race.

No, I'm sure Japan lost a race because they couldn't manoeuvre. Forget which one.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

Righto mate - keep telling yourself that for long enough and you'll believe it - much like assertions that OR didn't cheat in AC34. 

OR's boat may well have a hydro system capable of generating sufficient pressure for sailing the cat as they had envisaged/planned...but then ETNZ came along and showed them (both during the Challenger series and now the actual Match races) the benefits of extra pressure : more frequent and rapid adjustments to control surfaces. It's now plain for all to see (except myopic OR fans) that the ETNZ system is vastly superior - hence OR scrambling to generate more pressure (via that BMX setup that quite frankly looks ridiculous, and is an embarrassment to their campaign) to try and foot it with the Flying Kiwis. 

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1 hour ago, waterboy42 said:

 

Lookalikes.... 

Mere coincidence? Or have ETNZ really got a big tech secret?! 

 

IMG_20170619_103234.jpg

t1000sunglasses.jpg

 

 

 

SamTheEagle.jpg

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25 minutes ago, ianz said:

Maybe on that occasion, but NZ generally recovers quickly from being dead in the water than OR does. e.g. that tack in fro of OR at the top gate in race 2, the fluffed gybe at mark 6 in race 1, etc.

This lunch break??

5946584f013c8_OR-XEROXPicnic.thumb.JPG.7524dfd328111c450e01b8d945f87f56.JPG

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The elephant in the room is that Spitball is now an old man in an increasingly young mans game. He has had his day. Langford is not worthy to walk in the shadow of the bloke carrying Glenn Ashby's bags as a wing trimmer and he doesn't have the hydro power or the systems to do it with Gashby's finesse anyway. Whoever is controlling the foils on OR is out of his league in comparison with Blair Tuke and the splashdowns at critical moments are just plain poor at this level. I really do hope OR  find something over the next 5 days to make this thing somewhere near competitive. This is not, however, the same game as the 72s and a comeback of that proportion would seem increasingly unlikely because this is not the same ETNZ either. These guys have the full bag of skills, fire in their bellies and have so far played a masterful AC game, revealing just as much as they need to to proceed and keep their edge. There is a lot more in both tanks and yes, the gap could close over the next five days. I fear for OR, faced with a blinding speed difference that the last 3-4 years couldn't envisage, that the gap could also widen. We live in interesting times.

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6 minutes ago, Last Post said:

 a comeback of that proportion would seem increasingly unlikely because this is not the same ETNZ either. 

As long as Dalts is still in the mix I'm only 95% confident instead of 100%.

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Wonder if Jimmy's job is on the line? Under the rules they can't bring in Sir Ben or NO.

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13 minutes ago, Last Post said:

The elephant in the room is that Spitball is now an old man in an increasingly young mans game. He has had his day. Langford is not worthy to walk in the shadow of the bloke carrying Glenn Ashby's bags as a wing trimmer and he doesn't have the hydro power or the systems to do it with Gashby's finesse anyway. Whoever is controlling the foils on OR is out of his league in comparison with Blair Tuke and the splashdowns at critical moments are just plain poor at this level. I really do hope OR  find something over the next 5 days to make this thing somewhere near competitive. This is not, however, the same game as the 72s and a comeback of that proportion would seem increasingly unlikely because this is not the same ETNZ either. These guys have the full bag of skills, fire in their bellies and have so far played a masterful AC game, revealing just as much as they need to to proceed and keep their edge. There is a lot more in both tanks and yes, the gap could close over the next five days. I fear for OR, faced with a blinding speed difference that the last 3-4 years couldn't envisage, that the gap could also widen. We live in interesting times.

Great Last Post 

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2 hours ago, aucklander said:

My evidence of OR having a power issue is they've installed a laughable aftermarket heath-robinson cycle station on the back of their boat.

If that's not evidence, I don't know what is.  I have to admit when i saw it i thought it was a hoax it was so bad, but no, they are so desperate for hydro they ran with it.

brilliant :

 Heath-robinson  image of what  Jimmy  has  been   sailing, 

and what he's dreaming  of ~

917-201473195935_540x360.jpg

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1 minute ago, southseasbill said:

Wonder if Jimmy's job is on the line? Under the rules they can't bring in Sir Ben or NO.

Been saying that for 24 hours or more - This from a FB source yesterday. The outline is mine. Is this an editorial slip or a deliberate ploy to bring the story out in the open?

New OTUSA skipper.PNG

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2 hours ago, waterboy42 said:

 

Lookalikes.... 

Mere coincidence? Or have ETNZ really got a big tech secret?! 

 

IMG_20170619_103234.jpg

t1000sunglasses.jpg

 

 

 

Agent-Smith.jpg

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**Interview with Peter Burling** - today I didn't get a chance to chat to James Spithill, he was rushed off to an ORACLE TEAM USA complete team meeting. I did get to talk to Pete, and we went over today's racing, what we can expect next weekend, and we also spoke about the now famous photobomb from yesterday as well 1f609.png;)
For me, this is where it gets interesting; OTUSA have had to admit they are not fast, and they will be working 24/7 over the next few days to catch up. Emirates Team New Zealand on the other hand will be doing what they can to stay ahead... So it all begins again on Saturday, except that ETNZ are 3-0. Good luck to all over this week. 
Tomorrow, we head out to watch the J Class! Nic 1f642.png:)

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Said this in the enemy thread, but I don't think anymore there is much if any difference in BS as designed ...looking at pre-starts and transitions it seems collectively the 3 guys at the back of ENZ are simply a step above their counterparts. That is something which is pretty hard for OR to do anything about in 5 weeks let alone 5 days.

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Ashby is working a tablet for wing trim, correct?
Does the tablet include camera views of teltales on the leeward side of the wing, what 20 meter high?

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Has Dalton started fucking the hostesses yet?

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Just watching race with sky alternative commentary -just boat comms- at 0.07 after mark 2 in race 1 you can hear and see the collision on the rudder with an associated 'fark'.

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I've spent years explaining to punters that ETNZ lost the last cup match from a seemingly impregnable lead because Oracle got their boat going lightning quick upwind. Any sailor knows that boats that are quicker uphill - with the ability to mode high, low and plain VMG - are very difficult to race against.

To call it a "choke" was missing the point. There was no Ben Ainslie crew switch or tactical genius that lead to the Oracle comeback in SF. Oracle got their boat foiling uphill - they were 2-3 knots quicker at times. It overwhelmed ETNZ and they didn't react well under the pressure.

ETNZ will have sat down in their first meeting and the sailing team will have told the designers, "make sure our boat is dominant upwind - everything else comes 2nd". They got what they asked for - they have even openly conceded that they've traded reaching and downhill speed to have the upwind weapon they wanted (during the Artemis series they stated they just wanted to be in touch at the first gate). I'm convinced ETNZ have rocked up with the boat that would have saved their arses in the last Match. It makes it surprising that Oracle didn't recognise what strengths won it for them in that event.

Oracle need to refine three areas:

a) Reaching speed - Artemis gave themselves a fighting chance by prioritising reaching speed. This meant that Artemis recovered from starts where they were even or behind to lead at mark 1. ETNZ were only performing poorly at the start if you measure the start by who gets to the first rounding mark ahead. They were often even or slightly ahead at the start line. Being superior in the reach forced ETNZ to pass to win - which is much harder than stretching out to 500m leads (duh).

b) Downwind speed - This would be the most marginal of gains, but, several times ETNZ has rolled competitors by gauging down on them - both from windward and leeward positions. Assessing where this downwind VMG comes from and how to re-mode so you can match would be useful. This would offer less benefit than looking closer at upwind modes however. This isn't a straight-line speed issue, it's about having the option to soak down - if Oracle set up slightly ahead and to leeward they will take this mode away from ETNZ - but they've never had the opportunity - so ETNZ stretch quickly after the first Gybe of leg 2 every time.

c) Upwind speed - Speed isn't the problem, it's actually height - they show the relative speeds and sometimes it's not dramatic - but when you can see one boat gauging up off the other with your naked eye, in real time, you know there's a major issue for one of them. In the round robin ETNZ were shown up by Artemis who seemed to mode their boat better in 12-15 knots and were sailing much freer and faster. They stayed out with the coaches - seemed to iron it out and came back the next day being much quicker. This illustrates that the claims "the learning curve is steep" are not hollow and significant gains can be made. Oracle (unfortunately for them) seemed to have smoked way a bit of time not coming to grips with the VMG disparity, explaining it away with shifts and pressure. Plain and simple this is where the cup will be won and lost now.

ETNZ HAVE TO to improve themselves in four key areas:

a) Dropping off the foils - they've basically stopped dead in the water in almost every race in the finals, including a sphincter-tightening effort during the pre-start of the last race (that ended up being tactical genius - but let's be honest it was ordinary). They need to iron out the timing because eventually they're going to get nailed for this.

b) Head out of the boat - I'm not a subscriber to the "you need a dedicated tactician" camp - but when the Easterly course is set and the breeze is up and down they shouldn't be out of phase, sailing into holes and generally making life hard for themselves. It's easier when the breeze comes up a few knots, but when they're sailing in the breeze which they are most dominant in they are deficient tactically - mitigating the advantage a bit.

c) Reaching speed - if, all being equal, they find themselves in a position where they are being dominated down the reach and struggling to pass, they may need a plan B to turbo the boat for improved reaching performance. Artemis tried and failed with that strategy, but it doesn't mean Oracle can't make it stick.

d) Speed out of regulation tacks and gybes - they are slower out of tacks and marginally worse in gybes than Oracle. They look good in a straight build (off the start, recovering from f**-ups, etc.), but they're just a click off at times. Any greater consistency in this respect would be helpful.

Some of the answers to Oracle's moding issues may be provided by the Artemis team, who made some big strides in a short time during the finals. I don't know how disposed they will be to providing assistance or feedback.

None of the answers for Oracles issues will come from STJ - who had zero answer to the speed of Artemis and ETNZ (except in 25kts+ survival conditions).

 

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19 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

Wonder if Jimmy's job is on the line? Under the rules they can't bring in Sir Ben or NO.

This isn't a problem with the helm though is it. Apart from a duff start in race 1, the helm work has been basically fine. He's just sailing a slower boat. Maybe you can sheet home some responsibility to him in his skipper capacity, but not as a helm.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

The last rounding on race 2 shows they likely had hydro issues... Not the falling off the foils - that was just the beginning of it - but the fact they didn't (couldn't?) get their jib through which was probably the highest impact issue which prevented them getting foiling again quickly. It seems that could be power related according to the Artemis' article on hydro the other day.

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1 minute ago, ianz said:

This isn't a problem with the helm though is it. Apart from a duff start in race 1, the helm work has been basically fine. He's just sailing a slower boat. Maybe you can sheet home some responsibility to him in his skipper capacity, but not as a helm.

That said, there was a telling moment in the day 1 press conference (I mean the one after races 1 and 2).

When PB was asked what was better about ETNZ's day than JS's reply that they were 'only one down', PB said, 'well, that we are one up I guess'. Cut to JS, laughing, wry expression on his face. There was the look of a man who knew exactly how PB felt having been there himself, and who knows he's done his dash.

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Oracle can't replace Spithill - who else has had enough time on the helm?

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5 minutes ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

 

d) Speed out of regulation tacks and gybes - they are slower out of tacks and marginally worse in gybes than Oracle. They look good in a straight build (off the start, recovering from f**-ups, etc.), but they're just a click off at times. Any greater consistency in this respect would be helpful.

Some of the answers to Oracle's moding issues may be provided by the Artemis team, who made some big strides in a short time during the finals. I don't know how disposed they will be to providing assistance or feedback.

None of the answers for Oracles issues will come from STJ - who had zero answer to the speed of Artemis and ETNZ (except in 25kts+ survival conditions).

 

I've not noticed a problem with ETNZ in tacks and gybes.

They seem to bottom out a knot or two higher in each.

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Just now, jaysper said:

I've not noticed a problem with ETNZ in tacks and gybes.

They seem to bottom out a knot or two higher in each.

agree, Oracle definitely falls off foils during tacks more in the downwind range.

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7 minutes ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

I've spent years explaining to punters that ETNZ lost the last cup match from a seemingly impregnable lead because Oracle got their boat going lightning quick upwind. Any sailor knows that boats that are quicker uphill - with the ability to mode high, low and plain VMG - are very difficult to race against.

To call it a "choke" was missing the point. There was no Ben Ainslie crew switch or tactical genius that lead to the Oracle comeback in SF. Oracle got their boat foiling uphill - they were 2-3 knots quicker at times. It overwhelmed ETNZ and they didn't react well under the pressure.

ETNZ will have sat down in their first meeting and the sailing team will have told the designers, "make sure our boat is dominant upwind - everything else comes 2nd". They got what they asked for - they have even openly conceded that they've traded reaching and downhill speed to have the upwind weapon they wanted (during the Artemis series they stated they just wanted to be in touch at the first gate). I'm convinced ETNZ have rocked up with the boat that would have saved their arses in the last Match. It makes it surprising that Oracle didn't recognise what strengths won it for them in that event.

Oracle need to refine three areas:

a) Reaching speed - Artemis gave themselves a fighting chance by prioritising reaching speed. This meant that Artemis recovered from starts where they were even or behind to lead at mark 1. ETNZ were only performing poorly at the start if you measure the start by who gets to the first rounding mark ahead. They were often even or slightly ahead at the start line. Being superior in the reach forced ETNZ to pass to win - which is much harder than stretching out to 500m leads (duh).

B) Downwind speed - This would be the most marginal of gains, but, several times ETNZ has rolled competitors by gauging down on them - both from windward and leeward positions. Assessing where this downwind VMG comes from and how to re-mode so you can match would be useful. This would offer less benefit than looking closer at upwind modes however. This isn't a straight-line speed issue, it's about having the option to soak down - if Oracle set up slightly ahead and to leeward they will take this mode away from ETNZ - but they've never had the opportunity - so ETNZ stretch quickly after the first Gybe of leg 2 every time.

c) Upwind speed - Speed isn't the problem, it's actually height - they show the relative speeds and sometimes it's not dramatic - but when you can see one boat gauging up off the other with your naked eye, in real time, you know there's a major issue for one of them. In the round robin ETNZ were shown up by Artemis who seemed to mode their boat better in 12-15 knots and were sailing much freer and faster. They stayed out with the coaches - seemed to iron it out and came back the next day being much quicker. This illustrates that the claims "the learning curve is steep" are not hollow and significant gains can be made. Oracle (unfortunately for them) seemed to have smoked way a bit of time not coming to grips with the VMG disparity, explaining it away with shifts and pressure. Plain and simple this is where the cup will be won and lost now.

ETNZ HAVE TO to improve themselves in four key areas:

a) Dropping off the foils - they've basically stopped dead in the water in almost every race in the finals, including a sphincter-tightening effort during the pre-start of the last race (that ended up being tactical genius - but let's be honest it was ordinary). They need to iron out the timing because eventually they're going to get nailed for this.

B) Head out of the boat - I'm not a subscriber to the "you need a dedicated tactician" camp - but when the Easterly course is set and the breeze is up and down they shouldn't be out of phase, sailing into holes and generally making life hard for themselves. It's easier when the breeze comes up a few knots, but when they're sailing in the breeze which they are most dominant in they are deficient tactically - mitigating the advantage a bit.

c) Reaching speed - if, all being equal, they find themselves in a position where they are being dominated down the reach and struggling to pass, they may need a plan B to turbo the boat for improved reaching performance. Artemis tried and failed with that strategy, but it doesn't mean Oracle can't make it stick.

d) Speed out of regulation tacks and gybes - they are slower out of tacks and marginally worse in gybes than Oracle. They look good in a straight build (off the start, recovering from f**-ups, etc.), but they're just a click off at times. Any greater consistency in this respect would be helpful.

Some of the answers to Oracle's moding issues may be provided by the Artemis team, who made some big strides in a short time during the finals. I don't know how disposed they will be to providing assistance or feedback.

None of the answers for Oracles issues will come from STJ - who had zero answer to the speed of Artemis and ETNZ (except in 25kts+ survival conditions).

 

not sure what you were looking at but ETNZ had consistently higher lowend speeds in tacks and gybes.   I also disagree about the upwind.  Oracle are the slower upwind, height is variable.  They are often 1-2-3 knots slower.  same or worse in height. 

 

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

I've not noticed a problem with ETNZ in tacks and gybes.

They seem to bottom out a knot or two higher in each.

Maybe I'm paranoid - Our dialled-in, top-end VMG is indisputably better, but we seem to bottom out slightly lower. 

For me I'm alone at 3am in the morning and I'm seriously sweating on this stuff with no one to console me.

 

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4 minutes ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

Maybe I'm paranoid - Our dialled-in, top-end VMG is indisputably better, but we seem to bottom out slightly lower. 

For me I'm alone at 3am in the morning and I'm seriously sweating on this stuff with no one to console me.

 

Not by my observation, opposite.  at least on average. 

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2 minutes ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

Maybe I'm paranoid - Our dialled-in, top-end VMG is indisputably better, but we seem to bottom out slightly lower. 

For me I'm alone at 3am in the morning and I'm seriously sweating on this stuff with no one to console me.

 

Bwahaaha! nah, I've been through the races again both on vid and virtual eye and etnz pretty MUCH ALWAYS bottom out a knot or two higher.

generally they are higher/faster upwind when in a similar patch of water. I haven't yet determoined the pattern downwind as sometimes they are the same speed, sometimes faster and I can't pick the reason

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13 minutes ago, KoW said:

Oracle can't replace Spithill - who else has had enough time on the helm?

Coutts.

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4 minutes ago, MrTroy said:

Coutts.

Now THAT would make it interesting!

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11 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Great interviews @sailorgirl218

+1 No luck on that 4 from 4 though, Nic. But a great effort, as usual.

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5 minutes ago, MrTroy said:

Coutts.

Have they got a couple of spare committee boats? They'd sure as hell need 'em.

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11 minutes ago, KoW said:

Now THAT would make it interesting!

only if by interesting you mean ETNZ win by 4 legs

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56 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

Wonder if Jimmy's job is on the line? Under the rules they can't bring in Sir Ben or NO.

slingers is a way better moth helmsman

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The other thing is that, at this point in the regatta, we weren't winning by nearly as much in 2013. By this point in 2013 we only led for 100% in a single race. Most races had multiple multiple lead changes with NZ trailing most of the race. One race we lost outright.

This time they're miles ahead 100% of the time. Last time they could recover because they were 'competitive'. They're not this time.

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17 minutes ago, MrTroy said:

Coutts.

In all seriousness I don't think anyone else would be able to drive this boat other than Spithill. Even other the other AC50 helmsmen from this regatta who would be the only real option due to experience in these boats have totally different controls for theirs so this would be like driving an alien spaceship.

Tactics can't beat speed, and sadly Jimmy can't simply will the boat to go faster. This is going to be all about shore team effort over the next four days, and the crew keeping it together to make the most out of any possible gains they get.

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1 hour ago, Last Post said:

The elephant in the room is that Spitball is now an old man in an increasingly young mans game. He has had his day. Langford is not worthy to walk in the shadow of the bloke carrying Glenn Ashby's bags as a wing trimmer and he doesn't have the hydro power or the systems to do it with Gashby's finesse anyway. Whoever is controlling the foils on OR is out of his league in comparison with Blair Tuke and the splashdowns at critical moments are just plain poor at this level. I really do hope OR  find something over the next 5 days to make this thing somewhere near competitive. This is not, however, the same game as the 72s and a comeback of that proportion would seem increasingly unlikely because this is not the same ETNZ either. These guys have the full bag of skills, fire in their bellies and have so far played a masterful AC game, revealing just as much as they need to to proceed and keep their edge. There is a lot more in both tanks and yes, the gap could close over the next five days. I fear for OR, faced with a blinding speed difference that the last 3-4 years couldn't envisage, that the gap could also widen. We live in interesting times.

Hmmm Spithill is both too old for this game and 2 years YOUNGER than Glen Ashby.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Hmmm Spithill is both too old for this game and 2 years YOUNGER than Glen Ashby.

Probably his 'style' is more suited to a younger man whereas Glen has something to grow into.

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Do you think the teams read all this stuff on SA, I guess for motivation more than anything else...??

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49 minutes ago, pipo said:

Has Dalton started fucking the hostesses yet?

I'm sure he will get round to it once he's finished fucking Oracle!!.

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1 minute ago, Daggerboard said:

Do you think the teams read all this stuff on SA, I guess for motivation more than anything else...??

Maybe for a laugh if anything. Does anybody actually think whats said on hear is credible?

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19 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Hmmm Spithill is both too old for this game and 2 years YOUNGER than Glen Ashby.

Point there is that Gashby ain't driving the bus.

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The foils in the shot above are the famous 'batwings', right? It seems to me, ETNZ have been using this foil design for a while now, and made us believe these were the 'trainer' boards. And yet here they are in the match cutting Oracle to bits all over the course with the trainer boards! Perhaps ETNZ were using their 'good boards' all along! If so, that is some head fake to lay down on the other teams. So annoying this thing is so hard to watch unless you have access to pay TV. I would have paid $50 bucks to be able to stream it on a tablet. Ah well. The lunatics around here keep it amusing, for sure. 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

slingers is a way better moth helmsman

Then there's this from FB yesterday

New OTUSA skipper.PNG

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On 2017-6-8 at 1:24 PM, pipo said:

Yes I have, yes I am, yes I do, and no I would not

I think applications have closed Pipo. Sorry maybe give Team France a call they could use some tips from you rather than ETNZ

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3 hours ago, jaysper said:

Hmmm, THAT gybe in race 2 of day 1 was either due to bad handling or low oil Stinger. So there is at least evidence that they MIGHT have had oil pressure issues.

Definitely can't be wind pressure as they were less than 50m apart.

J

the bad jibe in race two was some knucklehead pushing the wrong button and raising the starboard board when they were still flying on it.  Seriously, go look closely at the onboard.  They meant to push the button to lower the port board so they could fly through the tube on both foils, and pushed the wrong button under the pressure.  The starboard foils raised, the boat crashed and they didn't even begin to lower the port. Pars until they were splashed down.   Game over.

 

lask of grace under pressure.

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4 hours ago, ladymarmalade said:

Or deliberate collision

I don't think Jimmy has enough oil to manoeuvre to nail us pre-start, nor the speed to catch us post start.

And to be fair, while he's a cocky cunt, I don't think he's a kamikaze cunt.

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31 minutes ago, Daggerboard said:

Do you think the teams read all this stuff on SA, I guess for motivation more than anything else...??

Yes the teams read all the posts each night after racing. Btw Spithill is in here posting incognito.

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2 minutes ago, MrTroy said:

Yes the teams read all the posts each night after racing. Btw Spithill is in here posting incognito.

His handle is Alinghi4Ever

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1 hour ago, theParadoxOfThrift said:

Maybe I'm paranoid - Our dialled-in, top-end VMG is indisputably better, but we seem to bottom out slightly lower. 

For me I'm alone at 3am in the morning and I'm seriously sweating on this stuff with no one to console me.

 

The Speed graphs that they've been showing on SKY bear witness to the fact that the Kiwi's bottom out 1-3 knots faster in the tacks and gybes ... 

Just cant find a link to those numbers .. but I'll post if I do  ... 

 

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14 minutes ago, richiec said:

The foils in the shot above are the famous 'batwings', right? It seems to me, ETNZ have been using this foil design for a while now, and made us believe these were the 'trainer' boards. And yet here they are in the match cutting Oracle to bits all over the course with the trainer boards! Perhaps ETNZ were using their 'good boards' all along! If so, that is some head fake to lay down on the other teams. So annoying this thing is so hard to watch unless you have access to pay TV. I would have paid $50 bucks to be able to stream it on a tablet. Ah well. The lunatics around here keep it amusing, for sure. 

 

 

The replays for you to watch on your tablet are in the Replay thread

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1 minute ago, ezyb said:

His handle is Alinghi4Ever

By the way, where has he gone, don't see him around here...

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41 minutes ago, Dreamwakes said:

I'm sure he will get round to it once he's finished fucking Oracle!!.

Hey newbie, haven't you learnt nothing from frisco

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5 minutes ago, jorge said:

By the way, where has he gone, don't see him around here...

Probably changed his name to etnzrocks I order to convey his long held opinion that etnz will win thecup.

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5 minutes ago, jorge said:

By the way, where has he gone, don't see him around here...

Something to do with having argued vehemently with all and sundry that ETNZ couldn't possibly have a speed advantage I imagine.

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Probably changed his name to etnzrocks I order to convey his long held opinion that etnz will win thecup.

Good one! We'll have to admit he's a true AC fan, he has cheered for every team during the competition.

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7 minutes ago, jorge said:

Hey newbie, haven't you learnt nothing from frisco

Yep, was in frisco, just under a different handle back then.

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5 minutes ago, Dreamwakes said:

Yep, was in frisco, just under a different handle back then.

Is that you A4E? 

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Did anyone notice how no-one is helming when gybing or tacking and pete is running across the boat? He even went into a gybe ran accross while the boat was turning and grabbed the helm on the new side with no one helping. Other boats have the trimmer lean back and helm while in transition.

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2 hours ago, Onehanger said:

Just watching race with sky alternative commentary -just boat comms- at 0.07 after mark 2 in race 1 you can hear and see the collision on the rudder with an associated 'fark'.

I just re-watched that after reading your post. That left (on the tv screen, right rudder on the boat) rudder shook something major - enough that even the camera shook. I wonder what it was.

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

There's been almost zero evidence of Oracle having any hydro power issues, unlike with ETNZ - even including this weekend.

Yeah, i guess the lack of power on ETNZ is the reason why only 3 out of 4 cyclors pedal most of the time and Blair focusing more on Daggerboardtrim than Cycling ;).

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2 hours ago, Qman said:

not sure what you were looking at but ETNZ had consistently higher lowend speeds in tacks and gybes.   I also disagree about the upwind.  Oracle are the slower upwind, height is variable.  They are often 1-2-3 knots slower.  same or worse in height. 

 

Saved me saying it. ETNZ are definitely coming out of most tacks/gybes quicker than OR. In the upwind battles you can watch the numbers dip post tack and they usually dip for longer on OR.

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13 minutes ago, Marty6 said:

Yeah, i guess the lack of power on ETNZ is the reason why only 3 out of 4 cyclors pedal most of the time and Blair focusing more on Daggerboardtrim than Cycling ;).

ETNZ have not even used all their power yet.  Several posters have noted this too.  There is plenty in the tank there if they need it. and I suspect the power can be directly translated to speed. 

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53 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Is that you A4E? 

 Ouch...Thems fighting words!.

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So far, so good. ETNZ is just better up wind in < 12 kts, and that makes it look easy.

We will have to see next weekend what the breeze does, and if OR is more competitive if the breeze is different.

Without the San-Fran-Trauma, I would be feeling a lot more confident calling this for ETNZ. However, then we were looking at a sport that had only existed for 6 months or so. Hoping that since the foiling programs have ran longer this time there is less scope for dramatic improvements.

 

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I wouldn't rule sabotage out of the question - submerged floating object around a particular mark or compromising the Emirates vessel in the shed?

Hope ETNZ have security and 24x7 cameras and the crew are very careful when crossing the street.

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1 hour ago, chris360 said:

Did anyone notice how no-one is helming when gybing or tacking and pete is running across the boat? He even went into a gybe ran accross while the boat was turning and grabbed the helm on the new side with no one helping. Other boats have the trimmer lean back and helm while in transition.

Yes I'd noticed once when Glen held the wheel but the rest of the time it's just drifting. One time I noticed quite a change in heading once Pete had it back under control, would have been +10 degrees as you could see it from side on.

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look at the polars over in the polar thread, ETNZ didn't have that much of a VMG advantage today on one tack, (Oracle's asymmetric boards to blame), but were much better at preserving VMG through the tacks.  If Oracle forego the assmmetry they are likely to be a lot more competitive. 

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3 minutes ago, Foyle said:

look at the polars over in the polar thread, ETNZ didn't have that much of a VMG advantage today on one tack, (Oracle's asymmetric boards to blame), but were much better at preserving VMG through the tacks.  If Oracle forego the assmmetry they are likely to be a lot more competitive. 

But they will forgo the advantages that the asymmetrical boards give them.

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19 minutes ago, Foyle said:

look at the polars over in the polar thread, ETNZ didn't have that much of a VMG advantage today on one tack, (Oracle's asymmetric boards to blame), but were much better at preserving VMG through the tacks.  If Oracle forego the assmmetry they are likely to be a lot more competitive. 

This one?? They were still 250+ metres behind

59475776b1aab_OR-XEROXR4VMG.thumb.JPG.44a93309f1c83ad86dcba62496654110.JPG

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1 hour ago, chris360 said:

Did anyone notice how no-one is helming when gybing or tacking and pete is running across the boat? He even went into a gybe ran accross while the boat was turning and grabbed the helm on the new side with no one helping. Other boats have the trimmer lean back and helm while in transition.

I think i heard somewhere that the teams are allowed to have some autopilot software to take control of the rudder for the tacks/gybes but not for the full race.

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46 minutes ago, webdeveloper said:

Yes I'd noticed once when Glen held the wheel but the rest of the time it's just drifting. One time I noticed quite a change in heading once Pete had it back under control, would have been +10 degrees as you could see it from side on.

I noticed it when tacking but GA drives during the gybes... GA does the one arm back to the wheel rather than standing behind the wheel at times

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Shit, watch this!! From today's first race, a few seconds after rounding the bottom mark for the first time. ETNZ's starboard rudder hits something and causes the whole boat to shudder, and the rudder flexes sideways. Think we may have dodged a bullet there...

I heard PB call for "someone to bring the dive gear" at the end of that race, to look at the rudder. Guess it was ok, going by there results....

480.mov

 

Sorry about the tiny clip with reduced quality - had to be under 1024kB to upload. 

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